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- [00:00]
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- [01:23]
Hotels.com Representative
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- [01:26]
Narrator
Want to be poolside with a drink.
- [01:28]
Hotels.com Representative
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- [02:34]
LinkedIn Representative
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:44]
Adam Leventhal
Hi there, I'm Adam Levanthal. Welcome to the preview on the Athletic FC Liverpool against Manchester City is center stage this week. Plus we'll be getting you ready for all of the rest of the weekend's Premier League action. Hello to Tim Spears. How are You, Tim?
- [03:05]
Tim Spears
I'm okay. How are you, Adam?
- [03:07]
Adam Leventhal
I'm very well. I'm very well. We have someone who's not regularly on the show alongside us and that is senior football writer Tim Ollie K. How are you, Oli?
- [03:20]
Narrator
Yeah, I'm not feeling quite as old as that makes me sound, but yeah, I'm very well, thank you. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
- [03:28]
Adam Leventhal
Exactly. Yeah, quite right, quite right. It's good to have you on the show. Let's just quickly tee up what we have this weekend as far as the Premier league fixtures. It's a 154 from Friday. We have an FNF and that is Brighton against Southampton. Then four Saturday 3pm Wolves, Bournemouth palace against Newcastle Forest, Ipswich and Brentford, Leicester. Then at 5:30 it is West Ham against Arsenal. Moving on to Sunday 1:30, it's Tottenham against Fulham, Manchester United, Everton and Chelsea against Villa. Then the big one to finish, Liverpool against Manchester City at 4:30. And we'll start at Anfield. So what an eventful and contrasting week for both sides, Liverpool and Manchester City. Let's drop in with our respective writers for those two sides, James Pearce and Sam Lee. Well, spurs set to go just four.
- [04:29]
Tim Spears
Points behind City as Timo Werner now takes the fight to Kyle Walker and bursts past him. Cross for Johnson.
- [04:36]
Adam Leventhal
It's four.
- [04:37]
Tim Spears
It's easy for the manager to blame. Yeah, the mentality is not there and they don't want it. I don't give up and I have.
- [04:44]
Narrator
The feeling that you will be there. And it's happened. It's happened because the human beings can happen. Legs.
- [04:49]
Tim Spears
And Salah scores at Liverpool Le.
- [04:52]
Tom Harris
It was far from a polished performance.
- [04:54]
Tim Spears
From Liverpool here on the south coast. Two one down. You kind of thought to yourself, are they going to shoot themselves in the foot? Especially off the back of City getting hammered by Tottenham on Saturday. But Mo Salah came to the rescue yet again. They are eight points clear at the top of the Premier League table. Edison's come and it's nodded past him by Pasal. The angle is very difficult, but it's in. And Pep Guardiola's Manchester City, who 3 nil in the early moments of the.
- [05:23]
Narrator
Second half, conceded three times in the.
- [05:27]
Tim Spears
Last 15 minutes to be 30 up.
- [05:30]
Adam Leventhal
And looking, you know, comfortable enough. It wasn't a perfect performance but they found their feet. It was the kind of basic competence they needed to get back to concede one you think, well, surely not. But that's how fragile they are at the moment.
- [05:42]
Tim Spears
Quite where this spiral leads, who knows? Because it's Liverpool on Sunday and City struggle Anfield even when they're at their very best.
- [05:53]
LinkedIn Representative
The ball against Real Madrid in the Champions League.
- [05:56]
Tim Spears
D Schlot side making it five wins out of five in the Champions League. They're looking down on everyone in Europe and they're also looking down on everyone in the Premier League. Anfield will be absolutely rocking once again on Sunday afternoon and they'll be desperate to pile the misery on man City.
- [06:12]
Adam Leventhal
Indeed they will. Yeah, thanks to James and Sam for charting the week for us. So let's start with Manchester City then. That four nil defeat against spurs last weekend made it three Premier League defeats in a row and that's as many as they'd lost in their previous 47. The last time they lost four in a row was back in 2008 Tim. And then following on that you had capitulation against Feyenoord. That 30 lead. Then it finished 3 3. What do you call this for Manchester City now? Is it a blip? Is it a worry? Is it a problem? Is it a crisis? What are you pinning on it?
- [06:52]
Tim Spears
I think you have to call it a head scratcher, don't you Adam?
- [06:55]
Adam Leventhal
Oh yes, quite.
- [06:56]
Tim Spears
It kind of felt like last weekend was surely them hitting rock bottom. What was what felt like a real seismic result. I said earlier in the week it kind of felt like you know, you know those sort of end of an era games that you very very rarely get in Premier League like. Like villa beating Liverpool 72 and it kind of, you know, signaled the end of. Of the reigning champions Liverpool at the time under Klopp or when Newcastle beat Man United 5 nil way back in the day. And it kind of Man United went on to win the title that season but it felt like you know, the reigning champions been dethroned and that's how it felt like last week especially when the fourth goal went in. But you kind of think this is rock bottom. They've got Feyenoord at home to come in the week and then they'll be up for Liverpool and probably put in a much improved performance. But I. I actually think the game against final on Tuesday was. Was probably the worst thing that's happened to them in the past month or certainly the most uncity like thing to have happened. You know to be for them. For them of all teams to up with 15 minutes to go and not win. Not only does that not happen to City, that doesn't happen to anyone. That's never happened in the Champions League. That A team has been 30 up that late in a game and not won. So it's, it's incredibly unprecedented and the, the sort of. The reasons and the excuses are running out now. Tuesday was nothing to do with injuries. You can't say that it. Oh, just because Rodri wasn't there, that's, That's. That's why it happened. It's an absolutely sort of fascinating thing to have happened. It's great for the Premier League, it's great for all of us, you know, to have this totally unexpected development with City. But they were doing really, really weird things on Tuesday. They were still playing with. Still, like, defending on the halfway line in the 92nd minute when they're three, two up and confidence is completely gone. But they've sort of lost their heads a bit, really. No one foresaw this happening at all. And that makes what's going to happen next even harder to predict, I guess.
- [08:45]
Adam Leventhal
What's your take on it, Oli?
- [08:47]
Narrator
I think you can look at various factors and look at the absence of Rodri and look at the absence of DS Ruben Diaz over the last month and individual struggles for players like Foden and Grealish and Kyle Walker and others who haven't just haven't got back to the. Well, just haven't got back to the best at all. I mean, in Grealish's case, that's something of an ongoing struggle. Walker's case, you might say it's a sort of ongoing slow decline. Foden's case, you're thinking, well, what? He was so good in the closing months of last season. Is it a hangover for the Euros? Is it something else? But the overall thing, I think you have to look at it as a. As a major psychological issue. You can look at technical issues within the team and structural issues and think, could they be doing this better? Could they be doing that better? Could they? Coaches always talk about, you know, being more compact and so on, but if you look at the last four games, there's been an element of psychological collapse to all. All four of those. They were playing. They were playing well. You know, they're 1 nil up in. In Lisbon away to Sporting and somehow lost that game. 4 1. They were playing well in the first half at Brighton. One nil up, looked like they were back on track. They lose that game. Could see 2 goals of 5 minutes late on 4 nil against spurs, having started the game well, then conceded the first goal. Collapse 3 nil up on Tuesday night, somehow collapse in the closing stages. It's like you just need to Give them the slightest prod at the moment and they're crumbling. And I think Liverpool will do more than just the occasional prod. Liverpool will think, well, we've got this chance to go 11 points clear of them. We've got the chance to finish them off in terms of the title race this season. Liverpool will smell BL blood and they will go for them. City have to do something very, very different. Not just technically, tactically, but they have to stand together and stand firm for. For 90 minutes because as they've shown over the last six games, but particularly the last four games, they are. They look vulnerable when they're attacked.
- [10:54]
Adam Leventhal
And Tim, they're going to a place Manchester City that they don't like going. They'd not had much success at Anfield, just one win in their last 21. They haven't won there with fans. They won during COVID but with fans since May 2003, is it still feasible for them to be in the category of a wounded animal? And if you imagine Manchester City as a wounded animal and then coming back with all their capabilities, then that would be very, very dangerous indeed. Can they still come back from this, do you think that they are. They can be rejuvenated.
- [11:29]
Tim Spears
What animal are they? You keep saying what kind of animal?
- [11:31]
Adam Leventhal
Well, when you think of a wounded animal, you think of a. I think of a lion.
- [11:34]
Tim Spears
No, I was going to say. I was going to say horse. Don't know why. I just popped in my head.
- [11:37]
LinkedIn Representative
Horse.
- [11:38]
Tim Spears
Yeah. Okay. No idea why. There were key players who are bang out of form at the moment. Gvardiol gave, not gave spurs, but, you know, two big errors for Tottenham's first two goals last Sunday. And then it was this comedy back pass that got Feyenoord's comeback going on Tuesday night. So you'd pinpoint him as one who's really out of form. You definitely pinpoint Haaland as another. I think we have to say that his goals were. Were hiding some of these weaknesses which have now become very apparent. Not to someone like Sam Lee, who's been saying all season that the City are out of sorts, but Harlan's goals were getting him out of trouble. You know, you look at his last, I think it's eight expected goals and he's only scored two. So he's. He's bang out of form and he missed quite a few chances, particularly against spurs, that you would expect someone of his caliber to finish.
- [12:24]
Adam Leventhal
But they were. He came close against spurs though, didn't he? On another day he could have actually had a Hat trick.
- [12:29]
Tim Spears
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he could have. I remember thinking that when it was 3. 0, that if. If he was harland at his very best, it still would have been 4:3 to City, you know, so it's. It's. It's not. It's not disastrous here. But you also have to say, Adam, this is a reversal in. In results, but not a reversal in form. If you look at the league games preceding this run, they were outplayed by Fulham at home, but sort of scraped through. They got their 95th minute winner at Wolves when they were. When they were poor that day, and then they beat Southampton 1 nil again. That was another poor performance. Those were the three. The victories preceding this against three, you know, pretty average or poor teams. So the signs were there. But they're so. They're so soft in the middle. They're so easy to play through, which is not something you could say about City before. That is an injury thing with sort of Rodri and Kovic. But they're also. I've not seen many leaders there. I think they mentioned the high line earlier against feyenoord in the 92nd minute. If Vincent Co. Was in the center of defense, there's no way he'd be saying, yeah, let's defend on the halfway line and allow a simple ball over the top to completely expose us. So there. There are issues, and there are term, and there are issues long term. You know, we spoke about this last week, how it's an aging squad that needs transforming. Lots of issues, short and long term.
- [13:40]
Adam Leventhal
Oli, obviously, you know, Tim's highlighted there that. That Manchester City have looked soft in places, which feels weird saying it to be. To be brutally honest. But then I suppose they will be looking at Liverpool, who had some troubles against Southampton, and think, look, we can. We can do things to Liverpool as well, because they've shown vulnerabilities.
- [14:01]
Narrator
They have shown vulnerabilities. They were poor in the first half. Well, I'd say poor for the first hour at Southampton last Sunday. But you always thought even at two on down, you thought, well, they'll get a goal in the next 10 minutes. They were building up ahead of steam. I felt all along they would win that game. And that wasn't always the case. When watching them last season, the defending wasn't great. I'd say they didn't have the same sort of control as they've generally had under Arneslots. So it's. Yeah, there are certainly weaknesses there and areas that City might feel that they could pinpoint if they can get their own house in order. That's that, that's the, that's the difficulties and it's City need to go there and dominate possession the way they perhaps did in the first half of that game last season. And Liverpool have got potentially a couple of injuries in defense. There are certainly areas where City might think, well if Konate's out, if there are any weaknesses in this Liverpool back line or in the Liverpool midfield, they have to expose them when they're on top because there will be periods in the second half, no doubt on Sunday when they will find themselves under siege and they need to be a lot stronger than they have been lately. City.
- [15:11]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, let's hear from Tom Harris who's one of our tactical analysts at the Athletic and he's been speaking on the Athletic Tactics podcast on what will be an intriguing tactical battle on Sunday.
- [15:24]
Tom Harris
I think one of the things to look out for is perhaps if Liverpool do approach this game pressing and in a 4:2:4 shape as we've seen recently from them, then Pep did seem to have a bit of an idea to combat that. Early in the season against Chelsea he moved Kevin De Bruyne out into the wider space in the build up. And the benefit of that is that when you're pressing in a 424 shape, the four attacking players are blocking the passes into the midfield. But when you've got De Bruyne there, you know you've got to make a decision. Then does one of that front four drop to pick up De Bruyne and then you lose the benefit of having the four players in the front line in the first place. Does a midfielder move across and then you're light in the midfield, does a defender move up? You know it creates problems for that pressing system and especially when you've got somebody like De Bruyne, his quality in those wide areas. That could be something that could potentially be a bit of a tactical theme in this game. But you also have to say that Liverpool and Arne Slot have tweaked their out of possession structure quite a lot this season. I think they did it against Leipzig was a good example. They did it against Chelsea actually when they came to Anfield, Chelsea were having a little bit of joy with that system and then they switched to a 4141 and they looked a little bit more solid. So I think Slot will have answers to that. But I think obviously City have been very poor in the individual duels recently. They've been very open. But I think if Kevin De Bruyne in particular you know, we've not seen the best out of him, I must admit, in the last season or so. If he can turn up, if he can get Foden into the game, if he can get Haaland into the game, obviously there's still a chance that they can, they can come away with something.
- [16:57]
Adam Leventhal
So De Bruyne could be key for Manchester City. Tim One man who could well be looking forward to this game in particular due to Manchester City's frailties and the opportunity to sort of catch them with with balls in behind is Trent Alexander Arnold who was on the bench against Real Madrid but he missed the game before against Southampton. But Arne Slot has confirmed that he is, he is fit to start. Do you see him slotting in and enjoying this game in particular?
- [17:25]
Tim Spears
Yeah, potentially. I think, I think City will play a little bit differently in terms of how they set up. But yeah, you're right, those balls over the top or I mentioned earlier, you know, the weakness with, with Gvardiola left back, you know, these are areas that Alexander Arnold will look to exploit. There's certainly a couple of warning signs for Liverpool against Southampton last weekend. Defensively, yeah, they were pretty suspect and if it's sort of post international break, which they've had issues with before. But yeah, they certainly, they couldn't handle onuachu and they couldn't handle dibbling either. It was quite, it was quite a patchy performance with some pretty rare defensive weaknesses. I mean their record's been outstanding this, this season at the back. So it's a hard one to explain, but you'd expect them to lift their levels on Sunday for sure.
- [18:13]
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- [19:33]
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- [20:03]
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- [20:13]
Tim Spears
Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.
- [20:24]
Adam Leventhal
So ole, you mentioned before Konate picking up that knock against Real Madrid. So obviously if he's missing that's, that's a big loss for Liverpool. But others you feel in this, in this Arna slot setup and having Virgil van Dijk just sort of looking after whoever's alongside him. You don't feel that it's going to be a massive issue?
- [20:43]
Narrator
Well, I think it's, it's a big issue in the sense that Kanata has been absolutely outstanding this season. He, I mean he was on the bench for the first game of the season. I think Jord Quansah had impressed on a slot more in in pre season than he had a difficult 45 minutes against Ipswich and Konate came in and has been there ever since and he's just, he has, he has been absolutely outstanding and was again on that right hand side of defense with Conor Bradley against Real Madrid. It was, it was fantastic performance. Big, big tests over the last few weeks and he's come through every one of them really. So he, he will be a big miss if he's absent. He, he and van Dijk would sound like a more the kind of partnership that Erling Haaland might not enjoy playing against. Whereas if it was, you know, Joe Gomez, not, not saying Joe Gomez is a poor player by any means or Gerald Quanta. Haaland might feel like he can get a bit more joy in the physical battles against those two.
- [21:40]
Adam Leventhal
One person, Tim, that Liverpool can't replace, especially at the moment, is, is Mo Salah. We'll come on to his future in a moment. But do you think that this is, this is almost the best version that we're seeing of him so far in the Premier League or am I just getting carried away with myself?
- [21:55]
Tim Spears
It's, it's, it's as good as I think. I mean the numbers speak for themselves. I think it's 12, 12 goals in, 19 in all comp dragging Liverpool through games. A real sort of talismanic figure. And yeah, again I'm going to mention Gvardiol being City's weak link at the moment. And you, you'd pinpoint that as a key battle with Gvardiol. So out of form defensively to the extent where maybe Pep switches it up and maybe switches Rico Lewis there or does something different with Carl Walker or with Nathan Ake because that on current form that is such a one sided contest that you, that you'd fear for City. But yeah, Salah, I think with his sort of bringing, his bringing his levels back up to what they were sort of what feels like about five years ago now. There's been a bit of talk this week about all time Premier League greats and where does he now stand now that he's adding longevity, you know, to his, to his brilliance and his numbers keep going up and up in sort of the all time Premier League tables in terms of goals and assists. I think he probably gets into my all time Premier League 11 now Adam, you'll be pleased to hear.
- [22:55]
Adam Leventhal
Do you keep it, do you, do you keep that sort of updated?
- [22:59]
Tim Spears
Yes, yeah, yeah. I've got journal. Yeah, I think, yeah, there's, there's slightly less competition for the right, for the right wing slot in a 4:3,3 than there would be on the left where you'd maybe looking at like Ronaldo and Henry on that side.
- [23:13]
Adam Leventhal
You really do, don't you? This is something. It's an ongoing piece of work.
- [23:16]
Tim Spears
Well, you know, Shearer's in the middle. You can't really argue with that. So it's probably Shearer in the middle. I think Henry on the left and Salah would be. Salah would be on the right for me.
- [23:24]
Adam Leventhal
Okay. Do you want to run us through the rest or not.
- [23:27]
Tim Spears
I would save it for next week.
- [23:28]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, good. Okay, I'll generate that for next week. Says Tim.
- [23:33]
Narrator
Wayne Hennessey.
- [23:35]
Adam Leventhal
Exactly. In terms of how Manchester City have been defending, you know, counterattacks. I mean, Tim's mentioned it earlier on, you know, playing that high line against Feyenoord, even when they were sort of still defending that narrow lead. This is perfect for Mo Salah in particular and for Liverpool, isn't it, Oli?
- [23:52]
Narrator
Yeah, it is. I mean, when Tim mentioned the, the fact that they were still defending on the halfway line at 31 and 32 in the closing stages on Tuesday night, I mean, it doesn't surprise me because that's the way they play. That's the only way they know historically. Traditionally you would always say with a team when, when they're really clinging on to something, drop, drop a bit deeper. But modern teams don't really do that. I mean, you know, maybe they do if they're playing Liverpool or Manchester City away from home and they're clinging onto one nil leave. Maybe, maybe in those situations a team drops deeper. But, but when it's, when it's Manchester City and they're playing a style of football that's made them so dominant for so long, they, they don't really have it in them to drop deeper and deeper and deeper or even drop 10 yards back. They simply do defend on the halfway line. That, that, that's the way they play. And they try to dominate possession and they try to, you know, make sure they, that if they lose the ball, they win it back extremely quickly. But that isn't working at the moment. If you look back at, for example, the great Manchester United teams of the 90s and 2000s, if they had a wobble, a three or four game wobble, which certainly happened from time to time, you know, probably generally happened once a season. But then they would really go sort of almost back to basics and they would be that caged animal and they would work on the basics of football, as Fabian Delph famously put it in that City dressing room. And it's probably harder to do that when your playing style is much more complex, much more front for much, much more dogmatic as opposed to pragmatic. I wouldn't really expect Guardiola to say, right, okay, straight lines, four, four, two. We stay compact, we drop back 20 yards. They're not going to do that. So I think, I think they will leave gaps in the same areas. Unless Guardiola is to do something majorly different tactically. Maybe three at the Back or five at the back I don't see that happening. But if they don't Liverpool will try to exploit them and Salah in particular will think yeah I'm going to enjoy trying to get behind that defense.
- [25:54]
Adam Leventhal
And Tim just on Salah he's obviously got that fire in his belly just on a sporting level but also he is fighting for a sort of a greater cause because he's out of contract. He said after the game last weekend, well we almost in December I haven't received any offer to stay yet in a club so probably I'm more out than in. Do you see this becoming a distraction? Do you see the Liverpool hierarchy actually going right, we need to nail this down because he's sort of now exposing us in public. How do you see it panning out this one?
- [26:30]
Tim Spears
Well they need to sort it out soon because you know he's a free agent fairly soon. So yeah there is a time pressing issue. I mean it's a story as old as time Adam. You know, player wants more money, player wants a new contract. Player plays very well until he gets what he wants. And now he's added a bit more pressure sort of publicly I don't agree that. I think it was. Jamie Carragher said it was selfish. I don't agree with that at all. If he wasn't delivering on the pitch then it might be a different issue. But it was cheeky. You know, he went out of his way to do it. I think he stopped in the mix zone three times in seven years. So it was obviously very deliberate something he's had on his mind. I don't think it's that bad. It's strange that Liverpool have left it this late to sort out the same as Van Dijk and Trent Alexander Arnold arguably the three best players. Obviously you know, I'm not aware of the sort of the specific details of the contract talks but. And whether Salah's asking for more money or not, I don't know. But if he's asking for sort of give me the same money for another couple of years I. I really wouldn't see an issue with that. He's 32. I think he's one of those that could probably play at a very high level until he's 37, 38. So look at his recent form. He's not slowing down. He's not a player who obviously his pace is important but doesn't specifically rely on his pace. I think he's got quite a few more years left in him. So to sort of say you know, yeah, this is what I'm worth. Give me more of the same for another two, three years. Doesn't feel out the question to me. So he's probably. Well obviously he's frustrated and it's come out in public but no, I don't see it being an issue. Adam.
- [27:54]
Adam Leventhal
No, obviously he's taking the focus because he is the Talisman. But Ollie on the other two. It's weird with Virgil van Dijk and Trent Alexander Arnold, it's almost as if people have not forgotten about them but they're being taken out of the spotlight. But arguably they're as important as him. Or do you not see it that way?
- [28:14]
Narrator
I think all three of them are extremely important to where Liverpool play, to their prospects this season, to the prospects next season. I think they would all be extremely difficult to replace. Who would be the biggest loss? I think in some ways it will be Alexander Arnold because although he's a right back, which is not traditionally a role where someone dominates a team and it's not normally the team's most important player, but he's only 26, he's homegrown. In an ideal situation, Liverpool would retain him for his whole career. That's, that's generally the desire in these circumstances, enormous circumstances. If Liverpool was selling on the, on the open market, if he had two or three years left on his contract, you'd be talking about an enormous transfer fee perhaps, I don't know, 80 million, 100 million more. I don't know. It's, it's the kind of player that just if Liverpool were trying to replace him, I think that's extremely difficult. But, but likewise with Van Dijk and Salah, they're both at an age where yes, you would normally say they're going to be in decline now, they're going to be playing less and less. But you look at Salah and Van Dijk and they are still performing to an extremely high level. Not just when called upon but week in, week out. That might not be the case in two years but right now you'd think well for another 18 months or so they look just a safe bet. Van Dijk is probably performing at a level that no 33 year old Central defender has done previously in the Premier League. I would say the same of Salah in terms of 32 year old wingers. So I think Liverpool are going to have to question their own position on it. At the moment Salah looks like he would be an awful lot more expensive to replace and Van Dijk likewise than he would be to to keep.
- [30:00]
Adam Leventhal
I'm gonna get your predictions now. It's. It's a two part prediction, Tim. First of all, score prediction please. From you.
- [30:07]
Tim Spears
Blimey. Well what's the second part?
- [30:09]
Adam Leventhal
I'm not going to tell you yet.
- [30:10]
Tim Spears
It's that secret.
- [30:11]
Narrator
Interesting.
- [30:12]
Tim Spears
Yeah, it depends. Which stat do you want, Adam? Do you want Liverpool have only won one of their last nine in the league against City or do you want. Man. City have only won one of their last 21 away at Liverpool. So they're both in bad form against each other apparently. I think it's a more important game for City to win in terms of the title. Obviously. Liverpool have won 10 of their first 12 in the Premier League. Only two teams have done that and not won the league in Premier League history.
- [30:38]
Adam Leventhal
All right, stat pack. Get on with it. What's the score going to be?
- [30:41]
Tim Spears
One all.
- [30:42]
Adam Leventhal
One all. Okay, Oli, what's your score prediction?
- [30:45]
Narrator
I would say Liverpool 3 1. But the interesting thing is when Tim says it's more important game for City to win and I agree in terms of the league table but I think if you offered both teams a draw now, I think City would be the one that would be shaking on it and Liverpool would think no, no, no, no twist please.
- [31:06]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [31:06]
Narrator
I think Liverpool will. Will feel they've got an opportunity to inflict a knockout blow on City. And it might not be that, but. It might. But it would certainly feel like that if by Sunday evening they're 11 points clear of City.
- [31:19]
Adam Leventhal
So that was going to be my second question. If it is an 11 point gap. Oli, I. Presumably you're saying that that's Manchester City completely out of the title race. Is it also Liverpool's title done and dusted there and then?
- [31:31]
Narrator
Well, Liverpool haven't really played anyone yet, have they? No, no, no. That was doing the rounds a month or so ago and I think people like me were saying we'll see where Liverpool are at by the end of November because by then they'll have had all these tough games in the Champions League. Real Madrid and they had this, what looked like a really, really tough run of games between the October international break and now really. And you look at the way Liverpool have come through that and you think they've not really had the sort of absolutely formidable, terrifying look that they had at their best under Jurgen Klopp. I've almost sort of thinking, well this is incredibly impressive what Liverpool are doing, but almost thinking it's hard to sustain but they are sust if they were to beat City on Sunday that that would feel enormous and I would certainly be inclined to see them as favorites for the title. It would be a big, big gap at this stage of the season, but there would, I think, still be the expectation that they were going to have a blip at some point. And then it's a question of how you respond to that. And in the case of City, it's been their failure to respond to the blip that's turned it into something worse.
- [32:43]
Adam Leventhal
Tim, you've obviously said it's a draw so the, the points gap wouldn't change and that therefore City would, would still be in the title race in your eyes.
- [32:51]
Tim Spears
Yeah. As Ollie says, a blip will come for Liverpool and City are still, despite what's happened in the last month, the one team capable of going to win 15 games in a row. So yeah, it does feel extremely pivotal, sort of goes without saying. But if one team wins, it's either going to be 11 points or 5 points. The difference. The Swingometer there. Jon Snow would love that, to be honest. So yeah, it does feel pretty pivotal. I think If Liverpool win, 11 points is too much for any team to.
- [33:19]
Narrator
Overhaul, there's going to be people who our American listeners and probably just all of our young listeners are going to think I don't remember there being a Swingometer in the Game of Thrones. That's the only thing I know about Game of Thrones. There was a character called Jon Snow.
- [33:33]
Tim Spears
Well, if you haven't seen it, Oli, then you won't know about the swingometer in Series 7.
- [33:40]
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- [34:58]
Adam Leventhal
So if Liverpool win against Manchester City and that may well rule City out of the title race, it may well be Liverpool's title to throw away. We're going to need someone else to challenge Liverpool and where is that going to come from? Will it be the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea? Let's deal with those two teams now. Chelsea take on Aston Villa, who aren't in a great run of form. Do you see Chelsea sort of sustaining this challenge, Tim? Because I remember right at the beginning of the season, you, you know, you did say that they were, they were a mess and they're probably going to stay a mess.
- [35:38]
Tim Spears
Doesn't sound like something I'd say it does, doesn't it?
- [35:41]
Adam Leventhal
That is exactly the sort of thing that you would say.
- [35:42]
Tim Spears
But that's the kind, that's the kind of corners that you, that you push me in week after week. Oh, are they going to be a mess forever? Oh, are they going to win the league? Oh, they're not going to win. And then you write it all down and then you bring it, bring it back up in late November.
- [35:52]
Adam Leventhal
Quite right. Yeah.
- [35:54]
Tim Spears
Yeah. Well, they could potentially, yeah, be sort of second in the league in a bit of a close pack, but I don't think they're going to challenge Liverpool for the tit. Far too inconsistent for that. And I know maybe recent results suggest otherwise, but I think that will be proved over the season. With their dodgy defense, dodgy keeper, I think, I think they'll level out slightly. But in terms of the top, in terms of the top four, they may run out of challenges over time. I don't think Brighton will quite sustain the levels they're at now. Tottenham are sort of hilariously inconsistent. Forest have dropped down. Villa issues with sort of managing fixtures and their squad this season. So, yeah, there's, there's a clear path there for a top four finish, which I think would be a bit of a success story given the mess they were in at the start of the season, given Maresca's in a new job. But yeah, I like the way that Chelsea sort of aren't just relying on, on Cole Palmer now. You know, it was all, it was all about him for the majority of last season and also parts at the start of this season. But others have really stepped up. Madueke had a good, had a really good start to season, obviously got hat trick against Wolves. Fernandez was one who stepped up last week. Caicedo a couple of weeks ago. Jackson Neto's had a couple of really good games. They've got a number of match winners in their squad, which makes them capable of beating any team in the league, which makes them very dangerous. Yeah, I don't think the consistency is quite there, like I said, certainly defensively. But yeah, they've really impressed me. They've done a lot better than I thought they would.
- [37:14]
Adam Leventhal
Let's deal with the Arsenal side of things then and we'll check in with the Athletics. Amy Lawrence, who was speaking on Handbrake Off. Arsenal go to West Ham this week, but they set themselves up for that visit to the cauldron that is the London Stadium by beating Sporting Lisbon 5 1.
- [37:34]
Narrator
We came out of trap so quick, didn't we? Well, this is it. I think speed is the key. The speed of pass, the speed of.
- [37:42]
Tim Spears
Movement, the speed of thinking, those kind of angles.
- [37:46]
Narrator
It's dizzying, like a kind of souped up pressing machine from the first seconds and there was four of them hunting in a pack. But what was great is that they then didn't take their foot off the gas at all and they continued with that sort of super press and the energy levels, the hunger. It looked to me like here's a team that have suffered a bit this season in a way that they found really frustrating and they're using that and channeling that in the best way possible.
- [38:20]
Adam Leventhal
So do you think that this, this turn in form that Amy is speaking about then, and maybe not just form, but approach and just feeling a little bit more energised, is going to come at the right time for Arsenal to just get them connected once again with a proper title race.
- [38:37]
Narrator
Oli, I think the right time would have been probably two or three weeks earlier in that, but you know, the gap is a lot bigger than they would like. The margin for error has been pretty small in the Premier League over the last few seasons. I feel like I looked at Arsenal's run of fixtures a couple of weeks back and I thought, you know, they've got a really tough run, it's not going to get any easier for a few weeks. And it didn't. And then you looked at the run that started at post Chelsea, which was Forest, then Sporting, then West Ham, then Manchester United, Fulham, and look, it's not an easy run, but I think it's a lot lighter than the run that they'd had over the previous sort of three or four weeks, four or five weeks. The Suspensions seem to have stopped with the. As a silly, silly red cards have stopped. The injuries seem to have eased up a bit. Odegaard coming back. I would expect Arsenal to be in a much better position by, by the end of the year, by the start of January than they are now. I don't see them dropping an awful lot of points between, between now and then. So they do have the capability, I think to put the pressure on Liverpool and, and I do think that perhaps more than Manchester City, they, they do have that sort of, you know what I was talking about earlier, that ability to kind of go back to basics. I think they've almost gone a bit too far back to basics in terms of their playing style at times this season. But yeah, I think they need to rediscover the sort of joy and fluency that they have at their best. And I think the signs in the last two games for us and sporting that they've done that and the goals have started to flow.
- [40:12]
Adam Leventhal
Obviously the main subplot to those chasing the top four this weekend, obviously we've got Brighton in fifth, they take on Southampton in that Friday night football. But then whether Tottenham can follow up their victory against Manchester City and all credit to them. I got a little bit of criticism from Tottenham fans after last week's episode. For me being light hearted about the fact that they haven't won anything for ages. So I do apologise for that. But obviously they had their sort of reaction and their sort of inconsistent moment by drawing in the Europa League. Do you see them just clicking back into gear and reaching the levels that they reached against Manchester City, against Fulham now, Tim, I mean, it depends what.
- [40:57]
Tim Spears
You mean by clicking back into gear really clicking back into gear would mean losing to Fulham. I think their results are even for Spurs. Their results are just remarkable. I mean beat Man United away, lost at Brighton with that crazy game, beat West Ham, lost at palace, beat Villa impressively lost owns at Ipswich and then produced what was probably one of their best Premier League performances and results ever at City last week. So you know what next? No idea to be honest. I mean obviously they were magnificent at at City. They were helped out by some questionable soft defending. But I thought with Benson Court out and with Basuma his replacement, getting a yellow card after 15 seconds and then with bringing Madison into into midfield, moving Kulasevsky away from the position where he's been so successful this season and pushing him out wide. I mean all credits postecoglys is a bit of a genius team selection to be honest. But, yeah, what next? They're so Jekyll and Hyde, they're so hot and cold that it's impossible to predict what's next. But if they were to find some consistency, I've said on the show before, they're almost as good as anything in the league when they're at their very best. So that's the conundrum for Postecogli. Now, who hasn't been helped by the fact that Vicario is out for a few months? Probably the one player, just about the one player in that squad that you really don't want to be without for a prolonged period of time, because there is just no replacement in terms of what Vicario offers, you know, with his feet, which is, of course, is so important to the way they play. Fraser Forster is not. Is not going to be that natural replacement. So again, like I was saying last week, with a doggy in poor defensive form and there's no natural replacement for someone like him, it's the same with the keeper. I'm surprised they haven't addressed it in the. In the summer. It's not like Foster's, you know, a new keeper who they're sort of getting to know. They know what his strengths and weaknesses are and they've gone into the season, you know, happy with him as the backup. So that might be a costly decision.
- [43:04]
Adam Leventhal
I'll come on to the bottom six in a moment, but let's just check in with the situation at Manchester United. That's another subplot of the weekend. Reuben Amarim's first home game in the Premier League in charge of Manchester United after that one one debut away from home at Portman Road last week against Ipswich. Here's Laurie Whitwell on talk of the Devils about that Hoyland performance against Berta Glimt, which got them a victory in midweek.
- [43:35]
Tom Harris
I was really pleased for him because there's a lot of focus on him. He's 21 and, you know, I've doubted is he going to be good enough to be United's number nine? But he's asked for the shirt. He's got the shirt and. And I think he obviously has that confidence and. But he. Obviously, there's a lot of focus on him because United just don't score that many goals, you know, 58, 57 in the Premier League in the last two seasons. He'd only scored two so far this season, but I just thought that was a really intriguing and encouraging performance from him. And in this system, right. You know, he's played at Atalant, so he says. So it's kind of. It's not that alien to him. It is different what he's doing now than what he was doing under. Tanagi says the pressing is different. He doesn't have to look over his shoulder as much much. So if he's just sort of focused on getting into the box, in the right areas, running the channels, as you say, then surely that's going to make him a better player.
- [44:19]
Adam Leventhal
Big weekend for, for Manchester United this weekend. Obviously they're three points off the top six and I, I guess that the main plan Oli for Ruben Amarim is just to at the very least finish above 8th where they were last season, but ensure that they're in that European conversation. And do you think that they are capable of doing that, putting it, putting a decent run together?
- [44:42]
Narrator
I do, yeah. I think I wouldn't go crazy about how good this Man United squad is, but I think it's a lot better than they've shown so far this season. Better than they showed the whole of last season. They've got enough good players, competent players to maybe not top four, but top six. They really should be in that area. I think there are a lot of teams of very similar level in terms of, you look at West Ham in 14th place, only four points separating them, and Tottenham in sixth and only, only another four points again to Manchester City in second. So I, I feel United should be capable of pushing. Yeah, I, I really do. And I think getting Hoyland scoring goals is really important. I agree with everything Lori said. You looked at the money they paid for him last year and it seemed excessive. It seemed a hell of a punt to, to kind of making Manchester United's number nine when he basically had half a good season at Atalanta. But I do see something with him which makes me believe he can. He can click, he can get it right, he can develop, which I haven't always been so optimistic about. Players Man United assigned in recent years. He does, he does seem to have the raw attributes to score goals if they can start creating chances and getting him in the right areas. I think his struggle so far has been a symptom of the seam struggle rather than the other way around. So I think if the team starts performing better, I think we'll see him score more goals.
- [46:14]
Adam Leventhal
I'm going to end the show by crossing to our relegation correspondent, Tim Spears, but maybe I shouldn't call you that anymore because Wolves, you know, the cream of Gary Oneills stewardship rising to the top now up to the heady Heights of 17th out of the relegation zone. Highest position of the season so far after winning 41 at Fulham. And Matthias Cunha, he is one hell of a player, isn't he? Six goals in eight. I suppose the big question is he going to get the hell out of there and go to a better club?
- [46:49]
Tim Spears
Tim, come on. I've been waiting all season for this. You come to me week after week. Oh, how awful of Wolves. How long's Gary O'Neill got? Finally we have a great win. Oh, how long, how long is it going to last though, Tim? Well, Kunya's not going to stay for long, is he? I mean he'll definitely say to the end of season. There's absolutely no way that they'll, that they'll move him on in January. They're not that type of club and also they can't afford to lose him. Obviously he's great. He, you know, obviously I'm extremely biased, but I think he must just be fun for everyone to watch, right? Because he just clearly loves playing his football. He plays with a bit of a free spirit. I mean it's, it's a massive turnaround from a year ago. People will forget how awful he was for a while and didn't look like a goal scorer at all. So full credit to him. And Gary O'Neill, excellent manager who's managed to coach the best out of him. I mean his goals last week, the first one was obviously classic Bert Camp, the way he sort of takes the long ball out the sky. Second one was more. Oh, I don't know, it was a bit hazardy maybe or a bit, or maybe a bit salah the way. Yeah, just that first time curler into the top corner. Oh, so good. So, so good. Yes, the Gary O'Neill Derby this weekend home to Bournemouth and yeah, feeling a bit, feeling a bit more, feeling a bit more confident about that, about the future.
- [48:00]
Narrator
Now 20 goals in 12 games. Wolves two fewer than Manchester City, one fewer than Arsenal. It's. It's impressive. Not, not so impressive. The defensive record which I think is the, the worst in the.
- [48:10]
Tim Spears
Yeah, but if, if Wolves continue on that trajectory, on the, on that trajectory, they'll score 63 goals this season which no team outside the top seven managed for the whole of last season. So basically if we continue on this goal scoring trajectory, definitely going to stay up. It's my prediction.
- [48:25]
Adam Leventhal
I think it's going to be an interesting relegation scrap overall. And you look at this weekend, opportunities for Ipswich at Forest, considering how Ipswich are playing at the moment. Palace will quite fancy taking some points off Newcastle after Newcastle slip against West Ham. It's going to be tough. A cult, which is a new word, tough, a cult to work out. Who's going to go down this season.
- [48:53]
Tim Spears
Tim, what was, what was the question? Who's going to go down?
- [48:57]
Narrator
How difficult is it going to be?
- [48:58]
Adam Leventhal
Pretty much, yeah. No, I just think there's going to be an interesting one considering, you know, Everton are going to potentially lose points this weekend. They're only two points off the drop. It's a lot tighter, a lot more interesting than it was last season.
- [49:11]
Tim Spears
Yeah. And now, now's the period where it becomes difficult to make decisions about, about managers. I mean, you know, Russell Martin surely can't have have long left. You know, if they're, if they're more than five, the five points of drift that they are now, then Southampton have got a big decision to make there. You know, we've talked about he was hired for his particular identity but you know, obviously if they're very likely to head to relegation, do they make that change now or do they stick with him and look to come back up next season? Etc, Everton, new owners coming in. Sean Dice probably looks the most vulnerable at the moment. And then yeah, Ipswich are recent improvements and obviously Leicester have made the call to get rid of their manager despite the fact that they're not in the relegation zone. So certainly Palace, Everton and Southampton will be looking closely at results over the next few weeks in terms of whether they make that change ahead of the January transfer window.
- [49:59]
Adam Leventhal
Tim Oli, thank you very much indeed for your company today. Don't forget there's plenty more on offer from the Athletic across the network with all our various podcasts, tactics, clubs, daily briefing as well. Thanks very much as well for the the kind comments on the documentary which we released last weekend on Sunday, Sudan Football and the Forgotten War. You can still listen to that. Thanks for listening as always for watching on YouTube back on Monday. Have a great weekend.
- [50:31]
Tim Spears
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts.
- [50:41]
Adam Leventhal
For free, search for the Athletic on.
- [50:43]
Tim Spears
Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.
- [50:45]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Tim Spears
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Tim Spears
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we correct.
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Tim Spears
Taping songs off the radio?
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Are we old?
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