Loading summary
Transcript86 lines
- [00:01]
Verizon Advertiser
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with select phone, trade in in MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was glasses are too expensive, so they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate and they start at just $95 including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near.
- [01:00]
Henry Bergkamp
You.
- [01:03]
LinkedIn Advertiser
As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs when you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that can manage all in one place. Here's how it works. Post your job LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote promoted jobs. Get three times more qualified applicants get qualified candidates at the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of SMBs using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates. You can let your network know you're hiring. You can even add a hiring frame to your profile Picture and get two times more qualified candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.combaseballshow that's LinkedIn.combaseballshow to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
- [02:26]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:30]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I'm Ayo Akimwaleere and welcome to transfers that shook the world. A summer series from the Athletic fc. Looking back on the moves that sparked fury and saw heroes become villains.
- [02:41]
Henry Bergkamp
Henry Bergkamp.
- [02:43]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Lovely ball for Cole. Brilliant. Absolutely wonderful. Arsenal goal.
- [02:50]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Today we're heading back to the summer of 2006 and a saga that saw rival lines CR from the north to west of London as Astley Cole traded boyhood club Arsenal for the rising force of Chelsea.
- [03:02]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Cole gets it back from Lampard. Still going. Ashley Cole. Oh, my goodness.
- [03:07]
Ayo Akimwaleere
So why was Ashley Cole's acrimonious move considered such a betrayal? And how did the deal signify a power shift as the blue side of London rose to prominence?
- [03:17]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Ashley, you're the Champions of Europe now. No one can say nothing to me.
- [03:21]
Henry Bergkamp
This is the reason I come here.
- [03:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, for this one, we have the Athletics, Chelsea and Arsenal writers Simon Johnson and James McNicholas. James, this is definitely a contentious one with Arsenal fans, but let's go back here. Take us to the young man. Ashley Cole as a young player coming through, such a bright prospect and probably, I guess, a belief at an early point that this could be a player that potentially could be a legend at this club.
- [03:52]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Absolutely.
- [03:53]
Henry Bergkamp
I mean, he came through the academy like you say. He had a loan spell with Crystal palace, which I think often gets forgotten about. You know, we all know the two London clubs he did definitely play for, but he played for palace as well in Division 1, did really well there. I think he played left wing a fair bit for them, came back, got his opportunity with Arsenal as a left back and excelled almost immediately. You know, Arsenal had a very established left back in Silvino, who went on to have a great career playing for Barcelona, Celta Vigo and others. He had some issues around his visa and his documentation in the uk and that meant that Ashley Cole sort of stepped into the breach and became Arsene Wenger's first choice left back. And it did seem you're right, like he would stay there for a very, very, very long time. He was tailor made for the way that Wenger wanted to play. People still talk about that trio of players on the left hand side for Arsenal. Ashley Cole at left back, Robert Perez ahead of him, and then Thierry Henry. They were so, so difficult to play against. The movement, the interchanging of positions. There was such a natural chemistry between them. And yeah, he was absolutely a fan favorite.
- [05:01]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, Simon, obviously Chelsea ended up getting their man. And I'm jumping ahead a little bit here, but I just want to touch on a little something and you have to be Very straight. I mean, I think this definitely made the news. And Chelsea had their wrist slapped. But did they tap him up early?
- [05:16]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Just a tad, yeah. I mean, when you think back, I mean, even at the time, it was extraordinary. I mean, it made back page headlines and understandably so, because look at the contemporaries involved. It's London rivals, it's Jose Mourinho, who was box office, being captured in a meeting with obviously Ashley Cole, Ashley Cole's agent, et cetera. I mean, extraordinary to be that naive to arrange a meeting of such importance in a. In a London hotel. So it was extraordinarily audacious. But this is what Chelsea were like. I mean, David Dean, when Abramovich took over, talked about, oh, it was like, you know, suddenly there's a tank on the front lawn firing $50 notes or whatever the quote is. And this was Chelsea showing it publicly. It's just sort of going, we are going to go after one of Arsenal's best players. And in a very sort of brazen way, I think they in some ways regretted it in terms of how it played out in the public arena. But in terms of making the move in the first place, there was nothing to regret because whilst the meeting was caught publicly in January 05, they got their man in the end. And so it was kind of the ends justified, the means, as it were.
- [06:34]
Ayo Akimwaleere
James, let's get a sense of his time at Arsenal. Part of you've talked about it, an incredible team, but why couldn't Arsenal keep hold of their man? Why couldn't they keep hold of one of their best assets and he goes across the road to Chelsea? I mean, I knew fans were spewing about that, but realistically, didn't the club do enough to try and keep hold of possibly the best fullback in the world at the time?
- [06:58]
Henry Bergkamp
It's interesting, isn't it, because, you know, this is a podcast about acrimonious transfer moves and I was thinking, wow, you could do plenty with departures from Arsenal, particularly in that period. And the reason, reason is because Arsenal found themselves operating under quite stringent financial constraints in that era. You know, it was in the midst of the stadium move from Highbury to the Emirates Stadium. There were costs there. Arsenal had various financial covenants they had to abide by and I think it did mean they lost a number of players. I'll always remember my kind of last sight, really in person, of Ashley Cole as an Arsenal player. His last game was the Champions league final in 2006, but prior to that, the weekend prior, it was the Final day of the Premier League season, the last game at Highbury.
- [07:48]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Football is finished at Highbury for all time and it's finished with a Thierry Henry Hatrick. After 93 years, Arsenal say farewell in the grand manner. A million memories.
- [08:03]
Henry Bergkamp
And I remember after full time, Arsenal had just beaten Wigan to secure a top four place in Champions League qualification. I remember him, Robert Perez and Thierry Henry just kind of sitting, lounging around in the centre circle looking around, saying goodbye to the stadium. And for Arsenal, for Ashley rather, it was saying goodbye to Arsenal as well. I think it was hugely frustrating for Arsenal fans, especially because he was an academy player, because he had that affinity with the club, because he was someone who'd been talked about potentially as an Arsenal captain one day. And the way that Arsenal went about it, you know, Ashley Cole was very much painted as the villain of the piece. He made some unfortunate, maybe ill advised comments in his autobiography, which Arsenal fans understandably latched onto and reacted to. But I think it's interesting that in the years since, you know, David Dean has offered an apology to Ashley Cole for what went on. So I think Arsenal probably do accept now in the fullness of time, you know, there's certainly more they could have done to keep this player.
- [09:05]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, I'm seeing reports around, you know, £55,000 being offered to him and Simon Chelsea sounds like they offered a lot more, but you can kind of understand and I think about this a lot and you know, James just mentions autobiography. You know, sometimes for players it's probably the most unsavory part, especially from a fan's perspective, is that sometimes it's kind of just a job for some people. He's probably looked at the layer of the land and thought, actually I want to go elsewhere and win trophies or do more. What did you make of his conversations and the things he wrote in his autobiography as well about his move from Arsenal to Chelsea?
- [09:41]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I think football fans, you can totally understand the initial reaction of. And look, they were ill advised comments like, I mean, it's great copy for his book, I mean great publicity for his book. But you can understand why Arsenal fans is sort of going, hang on a minute, you know, that's an extraordinary amount of money. Why are you so upset? But that's because we're thinking of it, us mere mortals. We sort of think about it, well, that's enough money for me. I'd love that kind of money. But you have to put yourself in the context of the environment Ashley Cole was in. So it's the equivalent of looking at Other players in that dressing room going, well, they're on a lot more money than I am, and yet I am arguably the best left back in the world. He'd become an established England international, marking Ronaldo out of sort of major tournaments. I could understand from his point of view, it was a clumsily expressed point, but I could understand if you put yourself in your workplace, the equivalent of back to mere mortar level, and you find out about a colleague that you sort of think you. You're sort of on a similar level to, but they're on an awful lot more money than you are, that's gonna rankle. That's gonna upset you a little bit. And then when you look at some of the things actually, Cole has even had to say recently, and he claims that there was a sum that was agreed to and then withdrawn, and he sort of says, I don't know why, so there's another side to the story. But I just sort of think you have to put yourself. It's very hard to tell football fans to take the emotion out because Chelsea fans have been through a similar experience with, of course, Mason Mount going to Manchester United, and he's now vilified. But I had some sympathy for what Ashley Cole was going through. He just did express it in the best way. And, of course, that led for him for years to be tainted with this greedy tag. When actually, when you come think of it, Chelsea just paid him what. What he deserved to be on, because he was. They saw in him a player that was the best left back, and they paid him accordingly.
- [11:38]
Henry Bergkamp
I think that's right. I mean, you know, Ashley's version of events sort of tallies with my own understanding, which is that I think there was a sort of informal agreement on the idea of about £60,000 per week. And when Arsenal actually presented the offer, there'd been a reduction to that £55,000 a week figure. And that's where we get the infamous I nearly swerved off the road comment from. But I don't think it was that Ashley was insulted by the idea of £55,000 a week. I think it was the fact that Arsenal had reneged on what he saw as an agreement. And something else to say is that, you know, while on the outside or supporters might say, oh, he's an Arsenal boy, you know, he came to the academy. You know, you expect him to stay on that basis. I think sometimes what a lot of academy players and agents and families feel is that clubs sometimes feel there's a bit of a discount on those Salaries, you know, that maybe they're a little bit taken for granted within the system, that they don't earn as much as a fancy new signing with a big fee attached to them. And I'm sure that was a factor in Ashley Cole's thinking as well. You know, am I being taken for granted here because I'm an academy player? Because Arsenal didn't have to pay a fee for me and that led to the breakdown in the relationship. I mean Ashley Cole ultimately after the kind of tapping up scandal did sign a one year extension. But it's not very often you hear of a young footballer in their prime signing a one year contract extension. I think the fact that that happened tells its own story really that the writing was perhaps on the wall and Arsenal were just putting off the inevitable.
- [13:08]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And the inevitable did happen. Chelsea got the guy for £5 million with William Gallas also part of that deal. Simon. I mean Arsenal fans have a very mixed bag view about how William Gallas tenure was at Arsenal. But actually an important player for Chelsea to some regard.
- [13:25]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
He was very good for Chelsea. He actually had a great partnership, central defense partnership with John Terry. Then Ricardo Carvalho came along, course Mourinho signing. And so Gallas sort of kind of got moved to the left back position and there was a lot of chat that Gallas wasn't too happy about that, that he wasn't playing in his best position. And he ended up sort of leaving under a bit of a cloud. There was all kinds of noise that he'd threatened to score an own goal if he wasn't allowed to. I mean I don't know how true that was to be honest. It. There seemed a bit of a sort of, let's just say it was convenient sort of almost to paint Gallas as the bad guy to make his departure more sort of palatable to Chelsea fans. But I think it's easy to forget. I think there was quite a lot of upset that Gallas left as part of that deal because he had been a key player in two back to back title winning campaigns. Very, very underrated. I think in terms of perhaps because of what happened after he left Chelsea, in terms of how good a defender he was. But it ended up no doubt that Chelsea got the better end of the deal. I think Gallas, I'm trying to think what his transfer value would be. It was significant at the time. So I think everyone goes 5 million plus Gallas. It sounds cheap. It ended up being cheap, I think even cheaper because Gallas didn't really have the same impact at Arsenal as he did at Chelsea, but at the time it felt like a pretty good deal for both clubs.
- [14:51]
Henry Bergkamp
I remember. I mean, it might seem fanciful now, given the way it played out, but I remember a lot of Arsenal fans at the time feeling like maybe they'd got the better end of the deal. William Gallas was so highly thought of and you ostensibly was a player who could operate at left back, although I think he only played one game for Arsenal as a left back. Clearly he was promised he would play more at centre half, but he never replicated the form he showed at Chelsea, really, in an Arsenal shirt. And obviously Ashley Cole went on to enormous success in West London.
- [15:21]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, I do remember William Gallas just sitting down in protest against Birmingham City.
- [15:26]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
And it has finished here with Gallas sitting there in a lone protest, seething with anger, wondering how Arsenal threw that away.
- [15:37]
Ayo Akimwaleere
We talk about Maverick Simon. He definitely had a streak in him, without a shadow of a doubt. All right, let's talk about that tag James Cashley Cole. I mean, this is obviously alluding to Ashley Cole going to Chelsea for the money, but, I mean, it left an unsavory taste in the mouth of Arsenal fans, didn't it?
- [15:56]
Henry Bergkamp
Definitely. I mean, Arsenal fans were incredibly hurt by it. And I think you have to take into context the sort of wider situation with Chelsea. I mean, Simon mentioned about the tanks rolling up on the lawn and firing 50 pound notes at Arsenal. It wasn't just Ashley Cole they wanted to take. I think Roman Abramovich was making inquiries after Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira, probably others. And Arsenal, encumbered by this stadium debt, probably saw themselves being replaced at the top of English football. You know, they saw Chelsea as a growing power, a huge threat, and losing Ashley Cole had huge symbolic value. I think Cashley Cole was probably one of the kind of things he was called during his time at Chelsea.
- [16:40]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I think there was a lot of.
- [16:41]
Henry Bergkamp
Abuse, some of it really unpleasant in nature. And, you know, it's not unlike the situation where Arsenal signed Sol Camp. Tottenham Hotspur. I know that Arsenal and Chelsea maybe traditionally aren't quite the local rivalry of Arsenal and Spurs, but I think given the fact that they were competing for major honours at the top end of the table, or close enough in Arsenal's case. There was a real kind of sting to this one and it's done. I would say irreparable damage to Ashley Cole's relationship with Arsenal. You know, to this day, he is not comfortable talking about Arsenal. He's done bits of punditry and things like that. But I don't think you'll find him doing many Arsenal games. I think that he feels ostracized and I know from pieces I've done and bits of journalism I've done when I've wanted to talk to him about his Arsenal days, he's been incredibly reluctant and I understand that because frankly, he was given, you know, dogs abuse by the Arsenal fans and in a situation where he felt he didn't do too much wrong. So, yeah, it's a real shame how it unraveled, because whatever you may think of him, he certainly played his part in Arsenal's history and, and I actually think you can make the case when you look at his career as a whole in context, what he achieved, how good he was for his position, he's one of the very best academy players to ever come out of Arsenal.
- [18:00]
Ayo Akimwaleere
That's a very fair point. Right, let's move on because next we'll discuss the wider importance of the deal.
- [18:07]
Henry Bergkamp
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accamulere.
- [18:11]
LinkedIn Advertiser
As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs when you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that can manage all in one place. Here's how it works. Post your job LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote promoter jobs. Get three times more qualified applicants get qualified candidates at the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of SMBs using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates. You can let your network know you're hiring. You can even add a hiringframe to your profile Picture and get two times more qualified candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn post your job for free at LinkedIn.combaseballshow that's LinkedIn.combaseballshow to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
- [19:34]
Henry Bergkamp
When you're a forward thinker the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, people and money today so you can transform tomorrow. Workday moving business forever forward.
- [19:49]
Verizon Advertiser
Trying to plan a trip and already need a vacation from it. EF Ultimate Break makes group travel easy and affordable for anyone 18 to 35. Everything's handled from accommodation to daily breakfasts to an expert. Tour director will show you the local secrets. Go island hopping in Greece, eat your way through Tokyo or take your pick from over 120 trips perfectly planned for your kind of adventure and with flexible interest free payments, you can book now and pay over time. Just head to Efub Co Travel, fill out your info and get $100 off your first trip.
- [20:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I just want to sort of pee behind the curtain here, Simon, for your position as a journalist and understand sort of what it was like to follow this deal with. You know, we've done a previous pod on Fernando Torres and Simon Hughes said he had this weird insight of just sort of being there. As Lu Suarez was walking through the door, Fernando Torres was also walking past him. A really strange moment. But for you, in the grand scheme of transfers, how important was this one?
- [20:50]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I mean, I touched on it earlier, but I think there's two things about this deal. One was the controversial nature of sort of revealed, the tapping up that can go on in the game. Part of me sort of thinks it's. We're all a bit naive to sort of think that clubs just sort of ring up another club and go, oh, can I have your player please? And then they start talking to the player here. It was conducted as I touched in public and it's sort of the outrage. It kind of. Of course, Chelsea have been reviewed very negatively just generally and perhaps continue to be. So it's like flouting the rules. We don't care, we've got money, we'll do what we want kind of thing. So you have that aspect of the story which is fantastic in terms of from a journalist point of view, because you know, you've got such high profile figures involved, but then you've got just the pure football aspect that Chelsea, the sort of relative new kids on the block in terms of the Premier League and competing for titles. They've just won two premier leagues. Are they happy with that? No, they go and sign the best left back in the country and not only that, they've stolen him from one of their closest rivals. So it's a fantastic story for journalists to cover and report on for These.
- [22:02]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Reasons, James, let's get the Arsenal perspective, really. Who did Arsenal blame for the way things actually transpired? Was it a case of too much agent power, heads being turned off? Did it put Arsenal really in a position of weakness in a weird way, sort of accepting the inevitable of where their financial situation was and where it looked like the road was heading for the club?
- [22:21]
Henry Bergkamp
I think if you look at that period in Arsenal's history, there was a time where it seemed as if one major player would leave every summer. The likes of Ashley Cole and then later Sami Nasri, Roberman, Persie Emmanuel, Adebayor, Cesc Fabregas. Eventually, you know, Arsenal had interest payments to fulfill. That meant they were pretty financially restricted in terms of what they could do. So I think that they probably saw it as a sort of necessary, a necessary evil that they had to let some of these guys go. But it was such a shame because it effectively saw the breakup of an incredibly successful team and put Arsenal into a state of really perpetual transition where they were always talking about tomorrow, you know, if these young players or if we can just add one or two more experienced players. And they never quite got there. But I think because Ashley was maybe the first of those dominoes to fall, I think that's partly why he took the brunt of the criticism. Also, the very public nature of it, you know, I'm sure tapping up has been going on since forever, right? But this was so public, so transparent, so obvious. It really took the mickey, frankly, from Chelsea's perspective and Arsenal weren't too happy about that. We're talking about this now. Was it two decades on? So at the time, all the heat certainly was on the player. And I think, you know, the likes of Arsene Wenger, the likes of David Dean in the moment, felt very let down and disappointed by what had happened. It's worth remembering as well, Arsenal had another left back in Gael Clichy, who they really rated, you know, and was coming through. He joined in 2004. I think he came across from Cannes in France and was very well thought of and had a good career, you know, went on to play for Manchester City as well and win things with them. But if we're honest, I don't think ever quite scaled the heights that Ashley Cole did. And that was the extraordinary thing about Cole, that he, you know, he had this attacking capacity. He could interlink, he could overlap, he could get to the byline, he could make these diagonal darting runs inside the penalty area. But first and foremost, and it's so surprising for A player who started his career as a winger, he was just an outstanding one on one defender. And if you think about Arsenal in that period, they were characterized, and I think justifiably so, as defensively quite frail. And what it would have given them to have an Ashley Cole type in that back four, you know, I think it would have given the team the creative players that they had a much better platform for success than they ultimately had.
- [24:51]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I think you're spot on. There's cliche, there's Kieran Gibbs who everyone thought could have been even a glimpse of Ashley Cole, actually even feels now that Arsenal are still probably looking for that left sided fullback that can really offer what Ashley Cole did all those years ago.
- [25:04]
Henry Bergkamp
Well, they might have solved that. I mean, Miles Lewis Skelly is another homegrown player.
- [25:08]
Ayo Akimwaleere
It's still early though, James.
- [25:09]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
It's still early. It's still early.
- [25:11]
Henry Bergkamp
It's very early. He's certainly not got the medal collection, but. Exactly. It's interesting. I've heard Arsenal fans saying that in some ways, Miles Lewiskelly coming through and becoming an England international at left back signing this new contract. I think it's provided a measure of closure for some of these Arsenal fans about losing Ashley Cole.
- [25:28]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, Simon, quickly on Chelsea and I know we've spoken about, you know, what it meant as a coupe to take Ashley Cole from Arsenal. But also I want to get a sense of what that Abramovich era felt like for Chelsea fans because there was huge success. But also was there a sense of invincibility? Was there a sense of, you know what, we want it, we can go get it.
- [25:50]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
It's interesting you use the word invincibles in this podcast, but. But yeah, yeah. Bramwich from day one was like, right, name players. I want this guy, I want this guy, I want this guy. I mean, you know, Chelsea showed after Ashley Cole that they'd go to another rival club and quite happily take them off. So you know, like you think of Liverpool and Fernando Torres, okay, it was nowhere near the kind of success that Ashley Cole had in Chelsea shirt. But that was what was felt with Chelsea was that there was no player they couldn't get. Of course there were a lot of players they did miss out on that. Money could only offer so much. Chelsea was still not seen as a traditional big club like one of the sort of the go to clubs. But money could help make up the difference. But sometimes inevitably there'd be players that go, no, I'm quite happy where I am, thank you very much. But in Ashley Cole's case, clearly money did win that they were able to give him the contract that he wanted. But more importantly, I think, well, just as importantly, Chelsea was showing they could win big prizes. They look like the team that, okay, if I'm a player now, sort of thinking like, what club can I go to that stands the best chance of winning major silverware. Chelsea were in that conversation. They were not only winning premier Leagues, but they were reaching the latter stage of the Champions League on a pretty much an annual basis. So it wasn't like you were taking a gamble with your career. You weren't sort of thinking, oh, if I go there, you know, I'm not sure if it'll work or not. You pretty much knew that you were in a title race and you were in the latter stage of the Champions League. So it was a great sales point for Chelsea. And of course it was. It didn't hurt that your salary was pretty tight. It had a few zeros in it as well.
- [27:31]
Ayo Akimwaleere
One person we haven't mentioned, James, is Arsene Wenger, someone who's credited to building probably one of the greatest teams Arsenals have ever had in the Invincibles. Was he hurt by this? Do we know if this one was one that really hit him? Because this is an academy boy, as we mentioned, at the top, someone we thought could be the captain of this club and he just couldn't keep him.
- [27:52]
Henry Bergkamp
Yeah, I think Arsene Wenger's on record is talking about it as a regret in his career, how things panned out with Ashley Cole. And I think his admiration for the player, frankly, never ceased. You know, Arsenal came up against Cole many times and he was a difficult opponent for them on many occasions. So, yeah, I'm sure it did upset him. I mean, he was quite, he could be quite pragmatic about these things. Wenger, he had that capacity to be kind of a coach and a sporting director where he could make these decisions from a very economic, business led perspective. And his vision was very much the importance of the stadium, the importance of that payment plan, delivering Champions League football. And ultimately he felt he would be able to do that even without Ashley Cole. He did now. But with Ashley Cole, could Arsenal have been a side that went on to win things in that era? Let's not forget they embarked on a nine year trophy drought. So he was certainly missed, certainly missed at Arsenal. And he wasn't the only one. You know, we saw a very successful squad broken up and it took Arsenal a long time to recover. I mean, you can certainly argue there's been no League title since then, so maybe they haven't recovered yet. They've obviously got to a place where they're much more competitive, but it's taken a very, very long time to do that and actually it's taken quite a lot of work on the back end, on the business side of the club to free them from some of those punishing loans that they took in order to pay for that stadium. That a lot of that work was when the Konkies took full ownership in 2018 and only since then, really, have we seen Arsenal back as one of the major spenders in the Premier League.
- [29:28]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I'll just quickly jump in just because you mentioned Arsene Wenger, it'll be amiss, not to mention Jose Mourinho, who was part of that meeting. We're talking about the manager at the time that was probably the box office manager. I have to say this, we have top players and I'm sorry, I'm a bit arrogant, we have a top manager. So if Mourinho, a manager of that ilk, wants you, that's also going to be part of your thinking, isn't it? That you're going to think, right, this guy is really showing me the love, perhaps the love that he wasn't feeling enough at Arsenal too. And then when you throw in the fact that in that Chelsea dressroom you've got England teammates like Frank Lampard and John Terry, that's also going to sort of help you think about making the move across London. So I don't think we should underestimate those factors either.
- [30:17]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, spot on. Right, next we'll reflect on Cole's importance and legacy as a player, and whether forgiveness from Arsenal fans is actually possible.
- [30:26]
Henry Bergkamp
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accemolaro.
- [30:32]
Derek Lassen
Hi, I'm Derek Lassen, host of the Athletic Football Show. This episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile, offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guaranteed. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the same nationwide coverage, network speed and service consumers are used to, but at more affordable prices. Why would you pay more if you don't have to? Boost Mobile also understands that change can be scary, which is why they allow you to try their service risk free for 30 days. And if you're not happy, you can get your money back. So start saving on wireless today with Boost Mobile's unlimited plans starting at just $25. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us online@boostmobile.com After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded. The Boost Mobile network, together with their roaming partners, covers 98% of the US population. 5G speeds are not available in all areas.
- [31:33]
Verizon Advertiser
The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where GAB comes in. GAB offers safe phones and watches with no Internet or social media. Just the right tech at the right time. From smart watches for young kids to advanced parent managed phones for teens, GAB keeps kids connected safely. Visit gab.com getg and use code getgab for a special offer. That's G-A-B-B.com getgab Gab tech in steps independence for them, peace of mind for.
- [32:15]
Brooke Devart
Parents Quince believes that quality products shouldn't be a luxury. Whether It's a breathable 100% European linen shirt or effortless stretch cotton pants, all of their high end top quality pieces are about half the cost of similar brands. Yes, really. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quints gives you luxury pieces without the markup. Get the high end goods you deserve@quints.com upgrade for free shipping and 365 day returns.
- [32:48]
Henry Bergkamp
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akumalaro.
- [32:52]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
He done it. The greatest night in the history of Chelsea Football Club. European Champions. They've beaten Bayern in their own backyard. They found the holy grail said we.
- [33:05]
Henry Bergkamp
Ain'T won in penal since I've been here but now we have.
- [33:08]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Well they say the Germans never lose on penalties. They do not.
- [33:12]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah Simon, let let's talk about Ashley Cole his Chelsea career because James alluded earlier that you know Arsenal went nine years trophyless in that time Ashley Cole ends up picking up the Champions League, Premier League, Europa League, FA cup four times League Cup. A really really important and also plentiful trophy laden time at Chelsea for him.
- [33:35]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah and I think the exclamation mark, the sort of the full stop on what justified the move was the Champions League. That was the one. And of course it probably is the image that is in most Chelsea fans mind and those those of us that reported on Chelsea that his intervention against Napoli in the Away leg. Chelsea are 31 down. It's calamitous under Andre Vers. Boas morale is at an all time low and he makes a crucial goal line clearance with score at 31 to keep Chelsea in the tie. And of course the gap between the two legs. Veezberg goes, Di Matteo takes over. Chelsea managed to turn it around in the home and then Chelsea go on to have this extraordinary success in the Champions League with the. The classic interview that was done with Ashley Cole on the pitch afterwards. He was phenomenal for Chelsea and he didn't just replace William Gallas. Chelsea had an England international in Wayne Bridge who was essentially sort of a rival in England team as well as Chelsea. But he just took that position on.
- [34:37]
Henry Bergkamp
Don't remember him. I don't remember him at all.
- [34:41]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Wayne Bridge.
- [34:42]
Henry Bergkamp
Ida Good Johnson.
- [34:43]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
It's Bridge. It's in. It's Chelsea's night. It's Wayne Bridge with just three minutes left to play. He just took that position onto a whole new level perhaps enjoyed and I think he's talked about this publicly. The manager he enjoyed playing under most was Carlo Ancelotti. The double winning team of 200910 gave him even more freedom to get forward and pose a threat. I think there's one of his all time best goals, I think it was against Sunderland and in a very big win against them at home where he makes a long run. I think John Terry picks him out and he jinx inside before having done a wonderful first touch and then friends it in the corner. That's what Cole brought to Chelsea and it's kind of polar opposite and understandably why that Arsenal fans obviously view him in a rather negative light. But he's absolutely revered and will always be revered at Stamford Bridge. Very much welcomed there if ever he came back. And I just find it sad just generally though that because of what happened in the manner of the transfer, it didn't just affect his reputation with Arsenal fans. I think there was just a general negative reputation he had. Now there were other things in his life that made the front pages subsequently and perhaps that also didn't help. But it only seems that now that there seems and I think as time goes on and perhaps he's worked with the England under 21s and so on that he'll start to be embraced a bit more not just at Chelsea, but outside and just across the nation. Because he was phenomenal as an England player, not just as a. As a Chelsea and Arsenal player.
- [36:19]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. Is there an alternative universe here, James? That if he had stayed at Arsenal, that those eight or so years, Arsenal could have picked up something, because I also look at it and I think, you know, Arsenal are also trying to balance the books. Arsenal were also losing players. You look at a team like Chelsea, they were bringing in some big guns that he could link up with, play with. Do you know what I mean? Like, would he have been as successful at Arsenal if he'd stay?
- [36:42]
Henry Bergkamp
I think, honestly, in that time period, probably not. I think Chelsea were in the ascendancy. They had a manager in Mourinho who, you know, really took England by storm, didn't he? And Europe by storm in terms of what he offered. The financial situations of both clubs were very different. And Ashley Cole alone, I don't think could have made the difference. So it's very difficult on that basis to kind of argue with his decision. You know, he went where he felt he would compete and win things and that's ultimately what happened. He was vindicated. As a side note, by the way, I know Simon mentioned that famous clearance off the line. I mean, Cole was a brilliant defender in, in so many respects. But I'm not sure I recall player making so many clearances off the line as Ashley Cole. I don't know if it's because, you know, because he wasn't the biggest guy on a lot of set pieces. He might have been the spare man or on the post, but his agility and his reaction time and his instinct for where the ball was going to be was so good. You know, even his relatively brief career with Arsenal, I can remember so many occasions where he rescued them with those clearances off the line.
- [37:44]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. I mentioned earlier, Simon, that Chelsea got potentially the best left back or fullback in the world. Do you buy that? Because I'm only looking at it through my Arsenal goggles. But I'm just thinking there's potentially some younger listeners coming at this going, what was it about Ashley Carr that was so good? Personally, I couldn't think of anyone else in that position other than maybe Roberto Carlos that was so effective as a left back.
- [38:08]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I mean, whether he was the best left back in the world for the entire time he was at Arsenal and Chelsea is obviously open to debate, but there was definitely a period where I've referred to it already where him against Ronaldo. Very few fullbacks kept Ronaldo quiet, and he did. I can't remember his year, 2004, World Cup 2006, but I do remember one national newspaper player ratings, which I think from memory, I think they had to file at some ridiculous, ridiculously early time in the match and they ended up giving him a three or a four. And it actually goes down as everyone sort of having watched the game, perhaps without the pressure of deadlines, and having to give 22 players a mark out of 10, which is almost impossible task. But I think it's sort of well renowned as being one of the greatest fullback performances that's been seen. So, yeah, he was definitely, if not the best at the time. He was always one of the best. And I think that's why Chelsea was so delighted to have him at their club for as long as they did. And, you know, it's taken a long time for them to. He could never be replaced, but to find someone sort of approaching his level as Pilicueta has sort of had his moments sort of playing as a left back, but could only offer one side of the game. Playing in that position. He was. He was good defensively, but couldn't offer the attacking threat. They subsequently signed players like Philippe Luis, who only stayed one season. Of course, Mark Cucarella is the latest incumbent. Got off to a slow start, but he's definitely now one of the best left backs in the league and of course has shown for Spain that he can win a major tournament with them. So he's one of the. I think you could sort of say he's in that conversation of one of the best in Europe, but in terms of Izzy Ashley Cole levels, no. Because very few players in that time have come close to those levels that he set.
- [40:01]
Henry Bergkamp
I think actually as an Englishman and an England fan, one of the joys was occasionally being able to watch him play for England, you know, in those duels against Ronaldo, and really admire from a slightly more dispassionate place how good he was. And, you know, I think he is acknowledged in Arsenal's history, but just maybe not as prominently as you might like. I mean, a great example is last year they redid the exterior artwork on the Emirates Stadium and there's a mural on there. It's Arsenal's first Women's Champions League winning team from the 90s and Arsenal's Invincibles lifting their respective trophies. And I believe it was a significant point of discussion whether or not Ashley would be included in that mural. He is. He is. But if you go and have a look at the image online, he is literally pictured right at the back of this crowd to the point where no.
- [40:58]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Love lost their gents.
- [40:59]
Henry Bergkamp
Yeah. I mean, like in the foreground, you can see whose faces that are there. And, you know, certain players have got Their back turned. You can see their name on it. Ashley Carw is tucked right away at the back somewhere between Gilberto and Jens Lehmann. And it's like he is there, there is that nod to him, but as an academy player, someone who Arsenal brought through themselves, it's kind of amazing, isn't it? And tells its own story that he has squeezed quite literally into the background.
- [41:29]
Ayo Akimwaleere
But he was part of the Invincibles, like he was so iconic in that moment. And it's just football does this to me and it does annoy me a little bit, James, that actually much of that, which is such a pivotal moment of history of the club, is slowly wiped away because of a transfer to your closest. One of your closest rivals.
- [41:49]
Henry Bergkamp
Yeah, yeah. And I think I'm right in saying my colleague Amy Lawrence wrote a book about the Invincibles and each chapter was kind of based on a player. And she may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she spoke to every player from that 11, from that great team, with the exception of Ashley Carr. And I know it's always been a frustration and a disappointment to her that Ashley wasn't prepared to speak on that occasion. I saw in the news recently there's talk about a documentary being made because we recently had the 20th anniversary of Arsenal's Invincibles and I think there have been talks with a couple of TV networks, TV streamers, about a documentary. I'd be fascinated to see if Ashley can be persuaded to be involved in that because, you know, we've seen many players dine out on the fact that they're Invincibles and probably go on to have careers in coaching or the media, you know, based on those credentials. But Ashley doesn't really have that association publicly at all. And I think it's a shame because you always must seek out Jamie Carragher talking about what it was like to defend against that left hand side of Cole Perez. Omri. I remember him saying, sometimes the best thing you could do was just not move, just stay still, because if you tried to follow one, there'd be another running in behind you or in the other direction. It was a whirlwind and the understanding between them was just so good. And whatever Arsenal's grievances with Ashley Cole over the transfer, there are still a lot of fond memories of what he accomplished as a player.
- [43:22]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I think this sort of touches on my general sadness about the whole Ashley Cole story, really, and how much a role. His reluctance to speak to the media stemmed from the coverage of his transfer between the two clubs. He Rarely spoke at Chelsea. It's not like he suddenly went, oh, I'm out of the Arsenal bubble and now I'm going to be all singing and dancing in a Chelsea shirt. He didn't want to speak to journalists at Chelsea very often. And I remember I was on a pre season tour, I think it was 2009, and I was at their training base in Seattle and they just finished a training session and Chelsea sort of said, oh, you know, just grab players as they come off. And Ashley was walking towards me, I thought. I thought I went, well, why not? You know, And I said, ashley, you got a minute? And he went, yeah. And basically I was so shocked at him saying, yes. I think my first question was along the lines of Jeremy Paxman esque, you know, how are you? You know, you're right. It took me a while to sort of suddenly go, oh, wow, I've actually got to now interview him. But unfortunately, a few days later he did a mix zone. So he stopped again and he made a joke along the lines of. I think he was asked something along the lines of Arsenal and can they get in the Champions League positions next season or something. And he said something like. He joked, he said, I hope not. And it ended up being back page and sort of totally made to look like, oh, Ashley Cole says, I hope, you know. And he never spoke to us again. I don't think after that, even after the Champions League final, you'd sort of think his greatest accomplishment, I was in the mix zone there as well. And you could see the Chelsea PR saying, oh, you know, come on, these guys want to speak to you. And he was saying, no, no, I don't want to. And whilst that was a frustration and sometimes you think, well, you also have to look in the mirror, perhaps some of the decisions you made, that has brought negative scrutiny onto you. I do think it was also quite sad that he didn't have this relationship with us, the media, and therefore didn't have a great relationship with the public either. Because whilst the general public may look at journalists, as you know, they may have their opinions of the way we operate at times, we do like to think we can give some flavour of what a person's like, not just the footballer. And because he never felt like doing that, I just think it allowed this impression, this negative impression of him, this sort of arrogant, aloof, I don't need you sort of thing to build. And that didn't do him any favors either in the way that he's been perceived, which is a great pity but.
- [46:00]
Ayo Akimwaleere
For Chelsea fans, would he go down as one of their greatest?
- [46:03]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Oh, for sure, yeah. I mean, he's. I think it also helps that there's that feeling of victory over getting one over a rival. And certainly when you look at the. The players that have played for both clubs in recent years, there's a lot of chat about how Arsenal have been signing certain Chelsea players. Chelsea sort of view will obviously think that sort of Ashley Cole and Cesc Fabregas, okay, via Barcelona, Livia Giroud as sort of victories over getting won over Arsenal. But Ashley Cole would sort of be probably at the top of that list because he was a direct player that could get out of that club. And so early on as well, in terms of the Abramovich era, by the time Fabregas came along, albeit Arsenal had already sort of said no, there was sort of fun and games after that. But Ashley Carr, I think, sent a real message as far as Chelsea fans were concerned about where Chelsea now sat down in London, particularly, forget globally, it's the London rivalry. But I also sort of think when we're talking about Arsenal and what James is talking about, the mural and so on, there is a part of me that goes, yeah, but this is great. This is rivalry. This is what we want in the game. We want that sort of sometimes that pettiness of like, whilst it's sad on one hand, at the other end, if there wasn't a rivalry, it would show that people don't care. Like, if a player makes that move, it shows how much Arsenal care and still care that this happened. If he wasn't any good, then we wouldn't be talking about it, would we?
- [47:33]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Spot on. All right, gents, thank you so much for taking us down memory lane with Ashley Cole going to Chelsea from Arsenal. Simon James, appreciate your contributions and also let us know what you guys thought of the episode and the series at large. We'll be back with more Transfers that Shook the World soon. We'll catch you then. You've been listening to the Transfers that Shook the World here on the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark and Lucy Oliva with sound designed by Jay Beal.
- [47:58]
Henry Bergkamp
The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on.
- [48:04]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [48:14]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network Network.
- [48:23]
Henry Bergkamp
When you're a forward thinker, the only thing you're afraid of is business as usual. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people and money today so you can transform tomorrow workday. Moving business forever forward.
- [48:38]
Brooke Devart
You know when you're just trying to pick up a dog treat and you're faced with a wall of ears, hooves, mystery meat and then rawhide looks harmless, but my neighbor's dog had a bad experience and ended up at the vet. That's when I found no hide chews, no rawhide, no nasties, just simple sustainable ingredients and no awful smell. Plus no hide chews actually last you get 25% off no hide with code chew25@earthanimal.com give them a try. Always supervise chewing some subject to availability terms and conditions apply. See earthanimal.com for details.
- [49:14]
Verizon Advertiser
Hi Brooke Devart here, host of Naked Beauty. Every week I talk to my audience about beauty and self care. I'm someone who spends a lot of time in the bathroom. It is truly my sanctuary. So investing in a smart toilet from Kohler has been life changing. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet has a heated seat, hands free, opening of the lid and customizable bidet functionality. It is incredible. But beyond the technology, the design is just stunning. The veil's curved silhouette in honed black actually inspired creative director and fashion designer Laura Kim to create a stunning black chiffon dress that debuted on the Runway at New York Fashion Week. The creative partnership between Kohler and Laura Kim is changing how we think about everyday objects like a toilet. Transform your routine into something extraordinary with the Kohler Vail Smart Toilet.