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The Athletic FC Podcast
Transfers that shook the world: Robin van Persie to Manchester United
00:45:13
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- [00:01]
Cam Jordan
When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help being.
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- [01:24]
Ayo Akimwalere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network welcome to Transfers that Shook the World with me, Ayo Akimwalere. A summer series for the Athletic fc. Looking back on the moves that sparked fury and saw heroes become villains.
- [01:40]
Robin Van Persie
After months of speculation, Robin Van Persie is finally set to leave Arsenal after agreeing to join Manchester United.
- [01:47]
Ayo Akimwalere
Today we are heading back to August 2012, when Robin Van Persie crossed a divide that had defined a Premier League era.
- [01:56]
Robin Van Persie
I always listened to that little boy inside of me and that boy was queening for my United.
- [02:00]
Ayo Akimwalere
So how did Van Persie's move to Old Trafford come about? And what is Sir Alex Ferguson's final masterstroke at Manchester United?
- [02:09]
Robin Van Persie
Percy sets off and Rooney finds him. Oh, brilliant.
- [02:13]
David Ornstein
That is sensational.
- [02:17]
Ayo Akimwalere
With us today, we have our football correspondent David Ornstein, senior football writer Oli Kay and Arsenal correspondent Amy Lawrence. Amy, let's get into this. Thirteen years on, Robin Van Persie's move from Arsenal to Manchester United is still a very divisive topic for Arsenal supporters. What can you tell us about the state of Arsenal and also the importance of their captain back in the summer of 2012.
- [02:44]
Oli Kay
I'm curious, you call it divisive, because I'm not aware of too many people who don't look back on that moment as either a dreadful betrayal or, you know, a moment of immense pain. I think it was really one of those things that it felt like a. An extra nail in a sort of coffin of Arsenal's ambitions at the time. Arsenal were in a strange period which probably only Arsene Wenger looks back on with any fondness, because he, I think, has pride in keeping Arsenal competitive during this period of the club, which is the post move from Highbury to the Emirates, where they went through a period of being financially restricted and plumped very audaciously for what was Project Youth, which meant, if you can't compete, you know, for the top players at the top, money, let's get them early, let's get them when they're affordable, let's inculcate them with Arsenal vibes and that way remain competitive. And I think back to that time, Van Persie, Fabregas, d' Arby, Bentner, Wilshire, Ramsey, Walcott, these were all players who arrived at the club in either their mid to late teens or perhaps very early 20s. And it was a big opportunity for them, and they were in their own right, all outstanding footballers. But, you know, being able to be as competitive as you need to be with that. At a time when Chelsea under Abramovich are going full out for domination, Man United under Sir Alex Ferguson remain very, very hotly at the forefront of being competitive. And it was harder than it looked. And keeping everyone together, which was the dream for Wenger, became something that. I think it hurt him terribly when he realized, you know what? I can't. It's not enough getting them early, getting them to love the club, getting them to feel together and love each other and try and do this ride as an ensemble, just became impossible. And the richer clubs at the time, the clubs that were maybe winning more stuff, the. It was unstoppable. And when you look back to that summer, the writing was on the wall the summer before when Clichy and Nasri went off to Manchester City and Fabregas went to Barcelona.
- [05:11]
Robin Van Persie
Oof.
- [05:12]
Oli Kay
So you're reeling from that. And if you are Van Persie, you're probably looking around and thinking, hang on, how can I carry all this? So when the summer of 2012 comes, he's just had the most fantastic season of his career. Personally, he was getting on a bit late 20s. And I think you can look throughout football history at players of similar repute who haven't won very much, thinking I need to do something that means I win. And that's what takes us to. I hope that contextualizes it in a way for you. That's what takes us to the phone call.
- [05:49]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, we're gonna get there in just a second. But you know, David, look, you know there've been plenty of transfers since then, but you know, you broke this way back in 2012. You remember of this transfer?
- [06:00]
Amy Lawrence
Yeah, I was a young man then. It was pretty remarkable actually. It was one of my first transfer scoops, I think. And I was so nervous about trying to get it over the line. Two big clubs and a really high profile player. There'd been so much speculation after the season. Amy describes 29 years old. Arsenal wanted him to sign a new contract. He was adamant that he wouldn't discuss this situation until after Arsenal's final game of that campaign. Three days later, I think it was, there was a meeting convened at Arsene Wenger's house in Totteridge that was also attended by the Arsenal then chief executive, Ivan Gazedis. It didn't go well. Van Persie and Wenger disagreed on the vision for the team. The season just gone transfer targets and you could argue as much as you like whether your best player, your captain, should be getting involved in those conversations. But he was. And there was no sign of a new contract after that summit. I think he went away with the Netherlands to Euro 2012 and there was this vacuum, really uncertainty as to what would happen. He came back from that tournament. I think there were offers from the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City, Juventus. None of them were accepted. Arsenal wanted a higher fee and weren't willing to negotiate below a certain price. But again, there was, you know, this lack of clarity from, from Van Persie as to what he intended to do until I think he then released a statement, I seem to recall, where he said he wouldn't be signing a new contract. And that was kind of the seminal moment in this all. It encouraged the suitors to increase their offers. And I think there were talks between Gazidis and the Manchester United chief executive at the time, David Gill, to try and sort of reach a consensus on whether a deal could happen because Van Persie had made clear that the only team that he wanted to join at this point if he was going to leave was Manchester United. I took some stick at the time for reporting that, you know, he would be willing to stay, of course, if he had to. If Arsenal didn't agree a sale, he would stay. I don't think he would down tools and he was the Arsenal captain at the time and maybe see out his last year. But ultimately, you know, Arsene Wenger decided that that was no way to continue. It was unsustainable. Something needed to give. And I think there was a preseason friendly and Arsene Wenger pulled Robin Van Persie to one side and sort of told him he wasn't part of his plans and that couldn't continue if he wasn't going to be signing a new deal. And that led to the beginning of the end really. I think there were conversations between Wenger and his opposite number at Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson, by which point they were on far better terms than previously. And I think Ferguson came in with a proposal above 20 million. Wenger went back with a counter proposal of a million more and eventually they reached an agreement and that allowed Van Persie to travel north to undergo medical to finalize his personal terms on a four year contract. Prior to that point, Arsenal had made some signings and headway in the transfer market. I think it was the likes of Giroud, Catholic, Podolski and my information at the time was that Van Persie was encouraged by that. It wasn't like there was sort of open rancor and he was like kicking and screaming his way out of the club. But it was his preference obviously to go and hang on, wasn't the little.
- [09:46]
Oli Kay
Boy inside kicking and screaming?
- [09:48]
Amy Lawrence
Well, yeah, I'm sure we'll come on to that. But, but ultimately, you know, it was the, the move that propelled Manchester United to a League title in, in spectacular fashion. The Van Persie goal against Aston Villa. So iconic now. Rooney and Percy making a trademark run again.
- [10:08]
Robin Van Persie
And what a ball to pick him out.
- [10:10]
Cam Jordan
And what a finish. A magnificent goal by Robin Van Pers.
- [10:17]
Amy Lawrence
And Arsenal fans at this point were growing a real dislike for him and wincing as he took their foes towards glory.
- [10:26]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. David, thanks for jumping in and also thanks for taking us down memory lane once again.
- [10:32]
Amy Lawrence
Pleasure. Thank you, guys.
- [10:33]
Ayo Akimwalere
All right, Oli, I know you've got a tale of your own as well. Break it down. What was it when this transfer broke? What were you going through?
- [10:40]
David Ornstein
Yeah, it's really interesting hearing David's recollections of reporting on the story. I was actually in Bern. England were playing Italy on a neutral venue in Switzerland eve of the season friendly match and we were all there and it's a fairly low key game as England games go, but all our focus was on that and then suddenly loads of phones start ringing and you can just see, you know, people could probably see my face dropping and other faces dropping as we all got calls from our desk saying, oh, the BBC have run this story. David Ornstein's run this story saying, manchester United have had an offer accepted for Robin Van Persie, £24 million. And it was probably my first experience. David was saying it was one of his first big transfer scoops. It was probably my first experience of what I believe is known on Twitter now as an Ornie bomb, where he just sort of drops this story out of nowhere and it just sends people into panic. Not least journalists, luckily, at the Athletic, I now always find myself on the right side of these awning bombs. But that was an occasion where everybody was thrown into panic, everybody suddenly taking their eyes off the England game completely, and we're all just calling contacts, trying to stand up this story, trying to get confirmation. Is this right? Is this right? And of course it was right, because it was David Ornstein. I remember spending the first half of that game writing up my copy of, you know, saying Manchester United had agreed a fee with Arsenal for Van Persie. Probably not giving the England Italy game the anything like the attention that it felt like it merited, but probably, with hindsight, didn't because it was a meaningless game. Anyway, all the back pages were, the next morning were about Robin Van Persie and it was a huge deal, a huge, huge transfer at the time.
- [12:26]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. Well, Amy, David earlier spoke about breaking the noose off that transfer, but also about the role of the relationship, or at least how that had evolved between Arsenal Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson. And what role do you think that relationship played in the deal? Because, you know, you've written about this in a previous publication about a particular phone call they might have had.
- [12:49]
Oli Kay
Yeah, we were. We were astonished by this. I remember being down at London Coney at the Arsenal training ground, and obviously it was, I presume, just the next press conference after the move where Arsen knew he was going to get tackled on this subject and he revealed that there'd been this phone call and they discussed it themselves. And actually, if you think about it, we've become, in this modern world of sporting directors and executive teams and God knows what, accustomed to a different way of things happening. But those guys grew up in an era where, manager to manager, making a deal for a player was not uncommon. It didn't happen so much then, but it would have happened 10, 20 years previously. When Sir Alex Ferguson was at Aberdeen, Arsene Wenger was At Monaco, you know, would have been entirely regular for managers to pick up the phone and go, I'd be quite interested in this player. What do you reckon? So from that point of view, it probably isn't as bonkers as it now appears, because I don't think such similar stuff would be happening now. If anything, it was probably indicative, in a sad way, from Arsenal's point of view, of how that relationship changed, because Arsenal were not able to maintain the levels of rivalry with Manchester United, as was evident in the golden era when the Ferguson and Wenger rivalry was the pinnacle of the game. It was a golden age of Premier League football. They were first and second for six seasons in a row, sharing things out. They were at each other in cups and it was riveting and bitter and it was breathless that they were constantly. Whenever you went to talk to one of them, somebody would say, oh, Arson, Fergus just said this about your team and tried to get a reaction, or vice versa. And that was kind of how it worked and it produced some incredible stories.
- [14:42]
Robin Van Persie
Arsene Wenger's been in Japan for a year. He doesn't know anybody in English football.
- [14:46]
Ayo Akimwalere
Why should anybody be scared of Ferguson?
- [14:50]
Robin Van Persie
I don't understand that.
- [14:52]
Oli Kay
But because Arsenal, you know, were waning in terms of not being able to. They were able to maintain top four, which was in itself an achievement at the time, but not of the one that was considered great enough for them to be really on a level, eyeball to eyeball. So that was kind of sad. And I suspect if. Let's just say a few years previous to Van Persien, you know, Ferguson had picked up the phone and asked about Patrick Vieira or Robert Perez, or if Arson had picked up the phone and asked about David Beckham or Paul Scholes, they wouldn't have had a conversation that would have been repeatable or come out in public by either of them. But I think they realized. I think Arsene is. He's a romantic, he loves his players, but he's also a pragmatist and an economist at heart. You know, he's got that background. And I think once the writing was on the wall, he would have preferred it had Van Persie gone abroad, but once Van Persie made it clear that he really only wanted Man United or nothing, you know, your back's against the wall. So I think he felt he had to do a deal and just make it the best possible deal for his club and then move on. And it was painful, and it was especially painful because. And this is something Arsenal fans don't like to hear, but Robin Van Persie's a really good guy, a really nice, interesting, original thinking, enthusiastic, artistic, football loving, good person to have around. And I think Arsene had loved working with him, he'd loved seeing him develop. He arrived at the club as a young man who was a left winger who had a bit of a reputation behind him. He loves helping people find new levels and he worked with him to turn him into this guy that was capable of being the top scorer in the Premier League and one of the most coveted players around. And I think because the way Van Persie's mind works, he's always asking questions, he's always challenging, he's always thinking about stuff he cares. That would have been something that was enjoyable within their relationship. So I think it personally is probably a tough one as well.
- [17:09]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well, next we'll discuss the impact this still had on the destiny of the Premier League title.
- [17:16]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [17:23]
Cam Jordan
When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help being.
- [17:32]
Jessica Hawke
Innovative with how to have success and how to formulate that success. That synergy between AI and a business business come together. It's like coaches game plan as well as the player. AI is creating a perfect plan and it's the business like, hey, we have this imperfect solution. Let's meld them together and see what happens.
- [17:50]
Cam Jordan
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers.
- [17:57]
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- [18:47]
Oli Kay
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- [18:50]
Robin Van Persie
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- [18:52]
Heather
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- [18:55]
Robin Van Persie
Jack's blood pressure was dangerously high.
- [18:57]
Oli Kay
It was 217 over 110.
- [19:01]
Heather
So they got Jack to the hospital.
- [19:02]
Robin Van Persie
Hospital and got him the help he needed. He had had a stamp placed in.
- [19:06]
Oli Kay
His heart preventing a massive heart attack. If it wasn't for my guardian angel.
- [19:10]
David Ornstein
I wouldn't be here.
- [19:11]
Heather
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- [19:23]
Robin Van Persie
Manchester City are still alive here. Balotelli Agua Arrow.
- [19:32]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well, this was a. A deal that came off the back of Sergio Aguero's iconic goal that sealed Manchester City's first Premier league title in May 2012. Ole. How important was it Manchester United had to strike back and make a big statement in that summer's transfer window?
- [19:50]
David Ornstein
It was very important. I mean, obviously the. The previous season had been decided with, with practically the last kick of the season by, by Sergio Aguero. Man City had only won it on goal difference. Manchester United had run them very close, but I think from that point on, really, there was a feeling that City would go onwards and upwards. And Manchester United had probably spent the last few years offset. United won three league titles in a row in the late 2000s. Then they'd lost one to Chelsea. Then United had won it back in 2011. Then there'd been this sort of titanic battle with City in 2012. But I think there was a feeling, looking at United, looking at the business that they'd done over the previous few years, that it was all a bit sort of papering over the cracks a lot of the time. And on the other level, it was buying very, very young players. So if you look at the previous few years, really since summer of 2009, when they'd sold Cristiano Ronaldo to Real Madrid, they'd lost Carlos Tevez to Man City. They'd only really bought, for example, Antonio Valencia, Chris Smalling, Phil Jones, David De Gea, Shinji Kagawa. It was a very much a young. It was sort of a rebuilding job and they weren't really competing at the top end of the transfer market. And I think that cost them not just in terms of the goal difference in 2012, but it cost them in terms of just not winning enough games, not really being able to get over the line and looking like a team that was going to probably have its work cut out to compete with City the year after. So for, for United, having been reliant on Wayne Rooney, Javier Hernandez, Danny Welbeck in attack, to add Van Persie, was going to be huge. And don't forget that, man. City also wanted Van Persie that summer. So despite having won the league, they wanted to build on that and put Van Persie up there with Sergio Aguero, which would have been. Would probably have been an extremely good partnership. United were desperate to get him. They'd missed out on Eden Hazard earlier in the summer to Chelsea. They were desperate to get Van Persie. I think you can look at it now and say, well, it was a sort of almost like a last throw of the die for Ferguson because he ended up retiring at the end of that season. Whether that was the plan so far back, I'm not quite certain. But I think he was desperate to win one last League title and I think having done all of that sort of long term acquisitions, buying younger players, I think he just needed to get a player who was at his peak at that point.
- [22:29]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, Amy, that deal, and we've spoken about it already in terms of how certain Arsenal fans would have felt about Van Persie going to Manchester United. But something he also referenced was the line he came out with when he signed for Manchester United.
- [22:41]
Robin Van Persie
I always listen to that little boy inside of me and what does he want? You know, and that boy was screaming.
- [22:48]
Ayo Akimwalere
For my United as an Arsenal fan, to hear that from the captain of the club must have been gutting.
- [22:55]
Oli Kay
Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether that was him or whether that was him being advised to come out with a line like that, but I mean, it was obviously going to be a little bit on the provocative side and it ensured that however you leave, you don't leave with sort of goodwill and good grace. So, yeah, I mean, that's something that sticks in the mind, I think, of quite a lot of Arsenal supporters. Probably why he's not remembered as fondly as a lot of his. You know, he was there eight years. When you think about it, it seems like he only really had one great season at United. I'm sure I'll be put right on that if that's not true. But it wasn't like he went there and he had five phenomenal years as a kind of part of the dynasty of his, you know, what his contribution to the game. But yeah, I thought that was a bit unnecessary. I mean, maybe you feel as a player that you need to do something like that to kind of cut ties with one club before you're going to another. Maybe that's something you kind of need internally. I don't know, because it's always a strange one when you go from one club domestically to another. And you've got a big history behind you. You know, how are people judging me? How are they looking at me? What are they expecting of me? And I often feel it's a bit like going off topic totally. But I always remember speaking a little while ago to Vincent Kompany and asking him about how he feels about being Belgian, which I think he was born and spent a lot of time and obviously plays for, and the Congolese side of him, because his family roots are from there. And I always remember him saying to me, I feel 100% Belgian and 100% Congolese. And I think we have this impression that people have to choose, which is mad, because it's completely legitimate to feel a mixture of things in who we are. And I think with players as well, sometimes there's a tendency with someone like Van Persie, well, was he an Arsenal man or a Man United man? You know, particularly if you represented two quite big clubs over, you know, a period of time. And I suspect that similarly he feels a bit of both and that when he was at Arsenal, he was 100% Arsenal. When he was at Man United, he was 100% Man United. And as fans, that's more difficult for us to grasp. But as players, when you're in that different level and it's your job, I think it's a lot easier to feel completely immersed and committed to one place and then to another.
- [25:24]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. I think one of the hardest things to see, and we've mentioned it earlier, was that Robin Van Persie had an injury string career at Arsenal until obviously going to Manchester United, you know, off the back of scoring 30 Premier League goals and winning Footballer of the Year, you know, I guess also his age was interesting. Was it a guaranteed at the time that he was going to go to Manchester United and do such great things, or did Arsenal feel actually with that injury record, maybe they actually got quite a good deal for a player who was sort of entering the latter part of his career.
- [25:57]
Oli Kay
I mean, no one's got a crystal ball. So I think at 29, which is when he moved, you know, he could have cracked quickly or he could have gone on to have, you know, five great years, his peak ahead of him, nobody knew. So you could only evaluate it on where he was right there. I think the fact that he'd had his best ever season and the fact that he was the captain and he acted as a very proud representative, he was a. He was a good captain. You know, strikers aren't always the easiest captain captains, I think Arsenal didn't have to look too far back to remember one of their, you know, star strikers being a captain yet being maybe a little bit unideal at times. You know, I think being that person who's got to be a bit self obsessed because you're a striker and also having this great team view doesn't always marry up and go hand in hand. But Robert did that really quite well in that final year at Arsenal. I suspect that the biggest problem was thinking that things were sort of improving and he epitomised that. So it was like, can Arsenal get back to trying to challenge for the League? And then taking out the best bit was a pretty tough answer.
- [27:10]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well appreciate your time on this one. It's definitely a transfer that many Arsenal fans are still salty over. Anyway, Amy, thanks for joining us.
- [27:19]
Oli Kay
Pleasure.
- [27:21]
David Ornstein
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwalere.
- [27:27]
Cam Jordan
When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawk to learn how AI can help being.
- [27:36]
Jessica Hawke
Innovative with how to have success and how to formulate that success. That synergy between AI and a business coming together. It's like coaches game plan as well as the player. AI is creating the perfect plan and it's the business like, hey, we have this imperfect solution. Let's meld them together and see what happens.
- [27:54]
Cam Jordan
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers.
- [28:01]
Heather
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- [29:02]
David Ornstein
Athletic FC podcast with I.O.
- [29:04]
Robin Van Persie
Acemolara Robin Van Persie Sens United him.
- [29:08]
Cam Jordan
On the way to the title.
- [29:10]
Robin Van Persie
You could have put money on it.
- [29:12]
Oli Kay
Against his old club.
- [29:13]
Robin Van Persie
Robin Van persy strikes within three minutes. Van Percy weighs 20, he scored 20 in the Barclays Premier League. And Manchester United move ever closer to the trophy.
- [29:27]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, that was a flavor there of some of Robin Van Pers's goals that led to Manchester United winning the title in 2013. Now joining us now to give us his take on what Robin Van Persie brought to Old Trafford, we've got Andy Mitten with us. Andy, number 20 for Manchester United delivered by their number 20. I mean, is there a better legacy for this transfer than that, really?
- [29:51]
Robin Van Persie
There's been nonsense, has there? The context of it was that United had been beaten to the league the previous season on goal difference, and there was a feeling that there was an over reliance on Wayne Rooney's goals. And the goals which Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez had brought to the team had never fully been replaced. Dimitar Berbatov was United's top scorer in 10 11, but Sir Alex Ferguson had already decided that his future wasn't at all Trafford. Well before the end of that season, Berbatov missed two big chances in the FA cup semi final against City. And when United looked back at his stats, Ferguson and his coaches came to the conclusion that he didn't sufficiently impact on on the biggest games. So that's why Robin Van Persie came into focus. City had scored 18 more league goals than United, which is significant, maybe not now, but it certainly was then. So that was the driving philosophy behind the purchase of Van Persie. And there was another reason. If United didn't buy him, then City would, making them even stronger. So United were told early on that they were his preferred club and that preference never changed. And Ferguson loved players who were desperate to to join his club. And they felt that he could have gone to City for more money like Samir Nasri had done. But he chose the club with the history 19 and soon, thanks to him, 20 titles. And United fans loved it because Van Persie won more in his first eight months at Old Trafford than he did in eight years at Arsenal. But as a player, I remember speaking to Andy Cole about him and he said, Robin's got brilliant movement. He's not blessed with electric pace, but his movement's outstanding. Watch his technique, the way he moves, his excellent first touch, the way he uses his body, it allows him to get half A yard advantage on a defender and shoot. He's finishing his quality with either foot. Once he's beaten his man and created a chance for himself, he's as good a finisher as anyone. He's good enough in the air, but his team play is fantastic. He gets on the ball in the right areas, he glides into spaces and he anticipates where the ball will be. It's not all about Robb either. He'll take a marker with him to create space for another player. So I thought that was quite interesting coming from someone who played that role so well. And because he did it so well, he quickly became a hero at Manchester United. But it was still a surprise. I vividly remember a United fan I respect and I won't name him, but he's called Anthony Shaw, saying publicly, if we sign Robin Van Persie, I will drink my own PIs. And he did this on a big forum at the time.
- [32:32]
Amy Lawrence
Did he?
- [32:33]
Robin Van Persie
Yeah, he did.
- [32:34]
Ayo Akimwalere
Oh no.
- [32:34]
Robin Van Persie
Oh yeah.
- [32:35]
Cam Jordan
No, no, no, no, no, he didn't drink.
- [32:39]
Robin Van Persie
He posted it on the forum. He didn't drink.
- [32:41]
Ayo Akimwalere
All right, clarifying that. No, no, you got me there. But do you know what, Ollie? Something as opposed to drinking your own. Whatever. Wayne Rooney was an interesting one in this and I was just thinking about it. This was Wayne Rooney at a point where potentially was looking at maybe leaving Manchester United. So if you think about convincing someone like Rooney to stay at Manchester United, bringing the top striker in, in the league the season before, surely that could sweeten the deal. Oli.
- [33:10]
David Ornstein
It could. It did also require Rooney to adjust his role a bit because Rooney had scored a lot of goals the previous season once he'd come back from his little slight estrangement from the team over the transfer request. He'd been saying he wanted top signings and he felt that Man City were, were kind of getting away from United at the time, which had been true. But the signing of Van Persie required him to moderate his own role. So he, he'd enjoyed that 1112 seasons and scoring loads of goals. Whether he enjoyed it as much being the creator, obviously he enjoyed being part of a title winning team. Whether he enjoyed playing that deeper role as much, I don't know. Obviously he got on the ball a bit more, but. But it did require him to be the more the creator of that partnership. He wasn't getting as many chances, but it was certainly after those years, you know, I'd spoken about the, the lack of investment in actual top class, proven talent after Ronaldo and Tevez left Van Persie was a real change of. It was. It was a real win. Now signing and they did.
- [34:15]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. Let's just look at his stats for the 2012-13 season. Van Persie scored 26 Premier League goals and nine assists. But you go a little deeper. His goals directly won man. Manchester United 28 points scored. Last minute winners away to both Liverpool and Manchester City. Scored two hat tricks, one away to Southampton before scoring one at home to Aston Villa on the night. Manchester United wrapped up the total. Let's not forget scoring against Arsenal as well. I mean for a player to go from one system at Arsenal straight into another, that is Manchester United. Ollie. Credit to the player.
- [34:50]
David Ornstein
It is. Well you look, I mean how many times since then have we seen Manchester United sign players who are either top class players or have been top class players or seem to be on course to be top class players and they've gone into United system and struggled almost from day one. That tells you it's not as easy as as Van Persie made it look. But he was joining a team at that time which it was a great system. It was a great setup up, everyone pulling in the same direction. Under Ferguson it was a winning, a winning culture. Even though they hadn't won the league the previous season. It was just sort of dropping a world class player into not the greatest Manchester United team, but a team that was equipped to go and challenge and win the Premier League the next season. And it was a sort of icing on the cake type signing.
- [35:38]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. Masterstroke from Sir Alex Andy.
- [35:40]
Robin Van Persie
Yeah, it was because it did exactly what was hoped. He scored really important goals late goals twice away at West Ham in the FA cup and the League. He got the winner in the Manchester Derby. Robin Van Persie on his Manchester Derby debut.
- [35:56]
Amy Lawrence
Deep, deep into it.
- [35:59]
David Ornstein
Here he goes.
- [36:00]
Robin Van Persie
And it's in Fire the deflection.
- [36:05]
David Ornstein
What a Derby debut.
- [36:07]
Robin Van Persie
There's every chance he's won it for Manchester United away at a club he could have joined. And it wasn't just a great goal caused by a mistake by Nasri. A player who United fought, designed. That game was a six pointer because City were the champions and Manchester United got the win. So that just made him an instant favorite. The fans were singing for him. He quickly became favorite to win the player of the year awards. But then he had a 10 game spell where he didn't score from February until a game at Stoke in, in April. And in that room were two really important games against Real Madrid when Van Persie missed a really big chance. And I Think that hurt his confidence a little bit. But by the end of the season, he was a big success. He scored lovely goals. His best one for me and I think for most United fans was against Aston Villa. I think from a technical perspective, and it's so confident. And that was the night United won still the 20th league title. You know, when it's happening, you just think this is just going to carry on and it just doesn't. But Rooney provided the pass for that goal and I think his link up with Van Persie throughout that season was really important to United winning the league because it was still quite a young partnership. He'd only just arrived and when Rooney still wanted to leave. You know, if you think the summer of 13 was when he said, I want to go. I can vividly remember the start of August 6th of August, BBC Radio 5 ringing me about Rooney and saying the United fans want him to stay. I couldn't find a single United fan who wanted him to stay. Van Persie was the main man. He'd become the main man. But fans being fans, Rooney did stay because United pushed for him to stay and started playing well and fans were soon singing his name again and he became the best player because Van Persie faded a little bit. If you look at his stats, he was at old Trafford for three seasons and it sort of went 30 goals, 18 goals, 10 goals by the time you're scoring 10 goals in a team that really is falling apart. And he was impacted by Ferguson leaving.
- [38:20]
Ayo Akimwalere
So, yeah, I was interested in that. What you reckon that had. Well, someone brings you of the club, you have all the faith in the world and then that person leaves and then what have you got? Where are your allies? That's a tricky one to deal with, surely?
- [38:32]
Robin Van Persie
Yeah, it wasn't ideal for him, but then he still did win the League. Would he have won the league at Arsenal? He can clearly vindicate that decision to go and Man United fans still sing his name. And I've been at Arsenal United games many times over the years. They use it to bait each other. The fact that Robin Van Persie left one for another. But it shows how powerful Ferguson and United were at the time. You know, this was a time when Man United could go to Tottenham on the other side of North London and take Berbatov and Michael Carrick at their best players. Implausible that that happens now the landscape has changed, partly because all the other clubs have become more powerful themselves and United are not as successful as they were. But he was. I wouldn't say he was A one hit wonder because that's unfair on him. But that season he had such an impact and won the League. You know, there's a cliche about Cantona being the final piece in the jigsaw to win United's first title in 92, 93. Van Persie was that as well. And I've spoken to players who were in the dressing room when he walked in and there was a bit of discontent because footballers think, how are we going to hunt down Manchester City who are spending a lot of money? And Van Persie walked into the dressing room at Carrington and I know lads like Patrice Evra just went, and we're serious now, we're not messing about now. His arrival not just gave the fans a buzz because most signings do. The players, world class players, looked at him and thought, we're at it now. And they were right.
- [40:07]
Ayo Akimwalere
Let's talk about the day Van Persie returned to Arsenal. He spoke when he signed about the respect he had for Arsene Wenger, but received a hostile welcome when he returned with Manchester United to the Emirates. I mean, Oli, what was your take of the reception that he got?
- [40:23]
David Ornstein
Well, didn't it start with him and the rest of his teammates getting a guard of honour? I think they'd clinched the league title a few days earlier and as luck would have it, United were playing Arsenal away in the next game and he and others got a guard of honor as they walked onto the pitch and there were very loud boos. I was there that day, and very, very low boos for the new champions. And yeah, I mean, his, his relationship with Arsenal's fans never, never recovered or you wouldn't really expect it to. I wonder whether in time, do things mellow a bit? Do they start to think, oh, you know, it's, he was a great player for us. Do they start to look at that, those highlights reels from the late 2000s and early 2010s and think, wow, that we can actually look at those with satisfaction now rather than through gritted teeth. I mean, he was a brilliant player. He was, if you take the entirety of his career, he was a better player for Arsenal than United because he was a top class player for longer for Arsenal, particularly those last two seasons. And then there was that one brilliant season at United. But then, as Andy said, he did trail off after that and probably more than you would expect, because I think they probably would have looked at him and thought, well, we'll get four really good years out of it. I think they got one good year out of him. And maybe it would have been a bit longer had, you know, had it not been for the managerial change in that sort of sudden sense that, you know, the walls were closing in a bit at United and things were falling apart. But, yeah, a lot of players struggled with that adjustment from Ferguson to Mo and. And he was one of them. His form, I think the first game the season, he scored two goals at Swansea, didn't he? And he looked like, wow, you know, he's picked up where he left off. But he didn't really. There was that hat trick against Olympiacos in the Champions League, but in terms of after that, you know, if people were recalling his greatest hits after that 201213 season, I think people would immediately go to the World Cup. And that wonderful header against Spain, that's a great ball.
- [42:27]
Robin Van Persie
He's onside here. Van Persie.
- [42:28]
David Ornstein
Oh, what a fantastic goal.
- [42:32]
Robin Van Persie
What a fantastic goal.
- [42:34]
David Ornstein
Just so it seemed like he and everyone else at United just sort of went into decline after Ferguson left.
- [42:41]
Robin Van Persie
It's interesting that Oli mentions Olympiacos because United did come back and did lost the first leg in Piraeus and that was seen as the low point of modern times because we didn't know what was to come. Ed Woodward, the leading executive, had a picture of the scoreboard from that game. It's like, man, United will never, ever go as low again as losing a Champions League game against Olympiacos. And Van Persie was publicly critical of the tactics of David Moyes in Greece. So when your star striker comes out and he was considered the best player at the club in that first season, when he comes out and publicly complains, that was a clear sign of his frustration personal and also the frustration that the fans had because United were not doing well. But just six months before that, I went to Carrington and I spoke to Phil Neville, who was one of the coaches, and he said, robin is better than anybody thinks. You think from the outside he's world class is. But you see him in training, you'd think he's even better. He's composed his class. He's got the Teddy Sheringham class about him. He's finishing is unbelievable. But he knows how to train. He knows he needs to perform on a Saturday. But he was doing that after Ferguson had gone. But it unraveled quite quickly because Van Persie absolutely understood that Ferguson had no plans to leave when he signed in in 2012. I've gone back through my notes before we spoke on this and it's pretty consistent. There's. And I think it's fair to say that there was a lot of room for improvement in the relationship between Van Persie and David Moyes.
- [44:16]
Ayo Akimwalere
Amy made a really interesting point that you can be a bit of both. But I wonder from an outsider looking in what Robin Van Persie represented to the Premier League. Was he a great Arsenal player or was he a great Manchester United player? Oli, what do you reckon?
- [44:30]
David Ornstein
It's a difficult one because you look at for example Ashley Cole. Ashley Cole won a Premier League title with Arsenal. Was a brilliant player for Arsenal already established as a a brilliant player. One of the best in the world in his position when he was there. But he's probably now primarily remembered as a Chelsea player. With Van Persie it's probably a bit different because it was only really that one season where you could really identify Van Persie with United. I'm looking at the stats now. He played 194 appearances for Arsenal, 96 Premier League goals, only 86 appearances for United and only 48 goals. So he scored twice as many Premier League goals for Arsenal as he did for United. But I think if you ask most people to name the defining Robin Van Persie moment or goal in the Premier League, they would say the one that Andy's just mentioned against Aston Villa on the night United won the 20th league title. That was his defining impact in the Premier League winning that league title and being the by far the best player in the in the league that season he won Player of the year PFA player of the year I think in 2012 final season Arsenal. But I think people would just more instinctively remember what he did at United even though it was really a fairly short impact by comparison. And that probably identification with United rather than Arsenal probably increases because Arsenal fans in some ways washed their hands of him after he left the there Andy.
- [46:04]
Robin Van Persie
You look at some some great players. I mean who remembers Luis Enrique, the Real Madrid player But he was there for five years but he became a bigger player at Barca. It's very difficult just to draw a nice neat line. I mean Giuseppe Miatsa might have done it in the line Billion Meredith represented Manchester City and Manchester United. I remember speaking to go back a bit now I'm going back I'll go back even well not quite that far but Samat Busby this is even better was a great for Liverpool and Manchester City. I've spoke to people who spoke to older people said would have gotten our greatest 11 and he's just identified so strongly with Manchester United because that's what fans do. They claim their own I always felt that Arsenal fans had a, had a problem with the way that Robin Van Persie went and, and Amy's explained why. And I can see that there are certain things you don't do. I was in camp now when Luis Figo came back with Real Madrid and he's like, you know, it's only football to this day, he cannot go out in Barcelona and I was there when the pig's head was thrown at him and it was like, we feel this far more than you as a professional. You're not even from here, you can't possibly relate or tell us how to feel. And there were no pigs heads thrown at Robin Van Persen, but there was definitely an enmity and Arsenal fans would have loved it if he would have failed. There's the irony there because, haha, you know, but it's childish, it's playground. But he was a fantastic signing for Man United.
- [47:39]
David Ornstein
One thing to remember is that he was in the final year of his contract. So to pay £24 million for him when he was in the last year of his contract as a 29 year old really did seem like a lot of money. There wasn't particularly an established market for doing that, that when somebody was going to be in a free transfer at the end of that season, he'd already made clear he wasn't going to extend his contract. So United could have waited a year and signed him on a free. But United were prepared to pay 24 million pound because they were desperate to win that next title. They weren't necessarily, you know, they'd been quite cautious in terms of the money they'd spent over the previous few years. They'd not really gone big top end of the transfer market. They'd missed out on Aiden Hazard because they wouldn't match what Chelsea were going to pay. They missed out on Sami Nasri because they wouldn't pay what Manchester City would pay. And I think there was just this feeling that this was the one that they were going to push the boat out for. So even though they could have waited, I think Ferguson just persuaded them. We need this one to hit back instantly to kind of reclaim that title from City. And as it transpires now, whether it was the case or not, at the time, it was something that helped Ferguson go out on a high.
- [48:48]
Robin Van Persie
Maybe Ferguson knew. I mean, I started getting inklings the sort of November of that year, just stuff that you couldn't write, but you're just like, oh, that, that's a bit odd. And there were worries about Van Persie's fitness as well. He'd rarely managed a full season when he'd been at Arsenal, but I remember right from the start it was welcomed partly because he come from Arsenal. You know, you not only get a good player, but you get one over a rival. It's the Cantona effect, isn't it? You've got a top player, but you've really annoyed their fan base as well. It's two for the price of one.
- [49:21]
Ayo Akimwalere
There have those days have changed agents. Anyway, let's leave it there. Ollie, Andy, also Amy and also David as well who joined us. Elliot, thank you so much for your time and your insight and your recollections. Let us know what you thought of this episode and also the series as well. We'll be back for more Transfers that Shook the World soon. Catch you then.
- [49:40]
David Ornstein
You've been listening to the Transfers that Shook the World here on the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark and Lucy Oliva with sound design by Jay Beale. The executive producer is Ady Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free. Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [50:04]
Robin Van Persie
The Athletic FC Podcast Network Network and.
- [50:13]
Cam Jordan
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- [50:15]
Robin Van Persie
Marketing just gave me their campaign report and they are obsessed with likes. Generating likes, counting likes. I mean don't get me wrong, I like being liked. But you can't pay employees with likes or follows. I've never seen either of those on a P and L report. The point is we have to get our customers to buy stuff stuff and like visit the stores.
- [50:36]
Cam Jordan
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- [51:30]
Cam Jordan
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