Transfers that shook the world: Sol Campbell to Arsenal

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Transfers that Shook the World – Sol Campbell to Arsenal

Release Date: August 1, 2025

Hosts:

• Ayo Akimwaleri – Host from The Athletic FC Podcast
• Danny Kelly – Host of View from the Lane, The Athletic’s Tottenham Hotspur podcast
• Amy Lawrence – Arsenal Correspondent, The Athletic

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Introduction

In the Transfers that Shook the World series, The Athletic FC Podcast delves deep into one of the most controversial moves in Premier League history: Sol Campbell's transfer from Tottenham Hotspur to Arsenal in July 2001. Hosted by Ayo Akimwaleri, alongside Danny Kelly and Amy Lawrence, the episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the transfer's circumstances, its immediate impact, and its enduring legacy over the past two decades.

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Sol Campbell’s Status at Tottenham

[02:15] Ayo Akimwaleri: "Looking back on the moves that sparked fury and saw heroes become villains."

Danny Kelly provides insight into Sol Campbell's standing at Tottenham, describing him as a "Spurs hero" and "the best siege defender I've ever seen." He emphasizes Campbell's critical role in the team, highlighting his intelligence and physical prowess in defense.

[03:11] Danny Kelly: "He was the best siege defender I've ever seen. If you were under pressure in your six-yard box, there was nobody better."

At the time, Campbell was not only the captain of Tottenham but also England's first-choice center-back, having been with the club since age 14. His leadership and defensive skills made him a cornerstone of the team, especially during a period when Tottenham was striving for greater success.

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The Transfer Context: The Bosman Ruling

The transfer took place during the early years of the Bosman ruling's influence on football, radically changing the dynamics of player contracts and transfers.

[04:54] Danny Kelly: "The full effect of The Bosman ruling hadn't yet really rolled through football. People hadn't understood that when his contract was gone, that was all the control the club had over him."

Danny explains that at the time, many within football were still grappling with the implications of the Bosman ruling, which allowed players to move freely at the end of their contracts without transfer fees. This lack of understanding contributed to the unpredictability surrounding Campbell's departure.

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The Secretive Arsenal Approach

Arsenal's pursuit of Campbell was shrouded in secrecy, rendering the transfer both unexpected and unprecedented.

[06:29] Amy Lawrence: "It's very interesting that probably the only people who entertained the idea were the people who could make it happen."

Amy Lawrence details how Arsenal's leadership, particularly Arsène Wenger, David Dean, and Sky Andrew, orchestrated the transfer behind closed doors. The clandestine nature of the negotiations meant that few outside Arsenal were aware of the impending move until it was officially announced.

[09:33] Ayo Akimwaleri: "Some might say very clever from the agent of Sol Campbell to sort of take advantage of this Bosman ruling."

The strategic maneuvering by Arsenal's representatives highlighted their understanding and exploitation of the newly established transfer regulations, catching Tottenham and the wider football community off guard.

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Reactions to the Transfer Announcement

The announcement of Campbell's move to Arsenal sent shockwaves through the football world, leading to a mix of disbelief, betrayal, and anger among Tottenham supporters.

[14:07] Amy Lawrence: "The only one who feels close in some respects is Figo when he went from Barcelona to Real Madrid."

Amy draws parallels between Campbell's transfer and Luís Figo's infamous move, underscoring the rarity and emotional intensity of such high-profile switches between bitter rivals.

[18:53] Ayo Akimwaleri: "This all sounds still really raw with you. It still sounds very raw."

Danny Kelly shares personal anecdotes about his emotional turmoil upon hearing the news, likening it to stages of grief.

[19:05] Amy Lawrence: "There was hardly anyone there, which is kind of crazy."

The secrecy of the transfer meant minimal media presence during the announcement, adding to the surreal nature of the event.

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The Aftermath: Campbell’s Success at Arsenal

Despite the backlash, Sol Campbell thrived at Arsenal, contributing to significant team achievements and solidifying his reputation as one of the Premier League's finest center-backs.

[38:34] Amy Lawrence: "He absolutely loved being part of that team because it was full of some very strong characters, exquisite footballers."

Amy emphasizes how the environment at Arsenal, filled with talented and charismatic players, allowed Campbell to flourish and win numerous trophies, including the FA Cup and being part of the "Invincibles."

[42:07] Danny Kelly: "He was a great player and, you know, he went off and did what he did at Arsenal."

Danny notes that Campbell's professional success at Arsenal contrasts sharply with the personal vendettas held by some Tottenham fans, highlighting the complex legacy of his transfer.

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Personal Reflections and Emotional Impact

The transfer had a profound and lasting emotional impact on those connected to Tottenham, including hosts and contributors.

[26:33] Ayo Akimwaleri: "Can I also say, though, that looking back at this case and just trying to understand it from an Arsenal perspective... "

[27:20] Danny Kelly: "Sol Campbell had every right to go where he wanted to go as a human being and as a professional."

Danny reflects on the personal betrayal felt by Tottenham supporters, juxtaposed with the acceptance of Campbell's professional rights.

[37:34] Danny Kelly: "This all sounds still really raw with you. It still sounds very raw."

The conversation reveals that the wounds from the transfer remain open for many, illustrating the deep emotional ties fans develop with their clubs and players.

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Comparisons to Other High-Profile Transfers

The episode draws comparisons between Campbell's move and other significant transfers to highlight the unique nature of his switch.

[14:07] Amy Lawrence: "The only one who feels close in some respects is Figo when he went from Barcelona to Real Madrid."

By comparing Campbell to Figo, the hosts underscore the rarity of such contentious transfers and their lasting impact on club rivalries and fan sentiments.

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Was the Transfer Worth It?

A critical analysis of whether Campbell's success at Arsenal justified the turmoil surrounding his transfer.

[37:57] Ayo Akimwaleri: "Honestly, right, let's talk about whether it was worth it, Amy..."

[38:34] Amy Lawrence: "I think he found a place where he fulfilled what he wanted to fulfill, football-wise."

Despite the initial backlash, Campbell's achievements at Arsenal demonstrate his ability to overcome adversity and succeed professionally, though personal relationships with former fans remain strained.

---

Conclusion

The transfer of Sol Campbell from Tottenham to Arsenal remains one of the most talked-about and emotionally charged events in Premier League history. While it propelled Campbell to new heights in his career, it also left a lasting scar on Tottenham's fanbase. The Athletic FC Podcast masterfully navigates the complexities of this transfer, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of its multifaceted impact.

Notable Quotes:

• Danny Kelly [03:11]: "He was the best siege defender I've ever seen."
• Amy Lawrence [06:29]: "It's very interesting that probably the only people who entertained the idea were the people who could make it happen."
• Danny Kelly [19:05]: "I remember the emptiness of the feeling like that."
• Amy Lawrence [14:07]: "The only one who feels close in some respects is Figo when he went from Barcelona to Real Madrid."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a compelling case study on how a single transfer can reverberate through the football community, affecting players, clubs, and fans alike. It underscores the profound emotional connections inherent in sports and the challenging balance between professional decisions and personal loyalties.

Transcript

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

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[Amy Lawrence]

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[Danny Kelly]

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[Ayo Akimwaleri]

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[Danny Kelly]

The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I'm Ayo Akimwaleri. Welcome to Transfers that Shook the World, a summer series from the Athletic fc. Looking back on the moves that sparked fury and saw heroes become villains.

[Amy Lawrence]

What about your situation Sol? Will you be staying at Tottenham?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I'm stay heading back to July 2001 as Sol Campbell completed perhaps the most controversial move in Premier League history.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm ambitious.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I want to play football. I dream about playing at the top.

[Danny Kelly]

Level and this is why I'm here.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

More than 20 years on. Why are feeling still so strong? And was Campbell vindicated in swapping spurs for Arsenal?

[Danny Kelly]

Plate 38126 Drawn 12 Lost exactly to Arsenal to win trophies. You're winning a few, aren't you?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I'm happy there's more to come, but.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm happy.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

With us for this one. We have host of View from the Lane, the Athletics Tottenham Hotspur podcast, Danny Kelly and also our Arsenal correspondent Amy Lawrence as well. Right, guys, this one is a spicy one. Let's get into it. A lot of passion, Very emotive. Danny, take us back to the turn of the millennium. Sol Campbell is Tottenham captain and England's first choice centre back, having been at SP since the age of 14. Can you just put this in perspective? How high was his standing amongst Tottenham Hotspur supporters?

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, first of all, great to be here. I wish I wasn't. I wish this thing would die. But since Seoul continues to mention it at every possible moment and indeed it has now taken to commercializing it with that recent advert they did, I found myself, you know, and I love working for the Athletic. When they asked me to do it, of course I want to do it. It's difficult to answer the questions in a straightforward way and I'll tell you for why, because in the intervening quarter of a century, Good God, quarter of a century, everybody' position has shifted, become less transparent and people including Sol himself and David Dean and Alan Sugar, David Pleat, they've now got into a position where they, they're trying almost to justify, to replay the whole series of events and it becomes very murky. So I'm going to try, in the interest of honesty to be as straightforward as I can. Even though it make me sound like I'm crying about Sol Campbell, which I don't do very often these days. Look, back then he was, and I've got no qualms in, in talking about he was a Spurs hero, obviously, but also he was I described as the best siege defender I've ever seen. At that stage, if you were under pressure in your six yard box, there was nobody better and more intelligent at seeing where the danger was and using his incredible physical gifts to snuff out danger. I know I'm supposed to say I didn't fancy him anyway, but he was a great player and outstanding at a time when spurs had a very average team. Let's not kid ourselves. This is the problem. I guess this is part of the problem. He stuck out like a sore thumb because he was so obviously the best player by a mile.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Yeah, well, he ended up in 2000, 2001 season. You know, he ran his contract basically into the final year. And for you, from a Spurs perspective, at what point were you thinking, hold on, I don't know if he's going to stay on, you know, look, the.

[Danny Kelly]

There are two things about this. One, the full effect of The Bosman ruling hadn't yet really rolled through football. Lots of people, particularly people within the game, had not yet understood that when his contract was gone, that was all the control that the club had of him gone. That incident. No more, no messing about. We were harking back to the days before Bosman when players contract would run out and he still had control over them. You could still demand a transfer fee for them despite the fact they had no contract with you, which was obviously nuts. So I think, you know, it hadn't been understood in that way. But I had a pretty good. I was working, I just founded and was, you know, editing Football365 and as the weeks went by it became increasingly obvious, I think that he was going to go. What we didn't know was that what was going on in the background with Arsenal and that was kept incredibly secret. And that is one of the things you couldn't do nowadays, I guess, trying to think the last time a transfer went through which was so opaque to people prior to it happening. David Dean deserves some credit for that in terms of theatrics. So no. And you're going to ask me later where I was and what I thought when I heard it, but he'd gone to Arsenal. We'll get on to that. I assumed, as someone who was, you know, worked in football journalism, at least I assumed that he would be going to Barcelona.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Interesting. Amy, let's talk the Arsenal. Obviously we'll go into the nitty gritties of the deal and what it meant for him to come to Arsenal. But for you watching from the other side of North London, also, as a journalist who loves football, what did you make of this whole thing?

[Amy Lawrence]

I also assumed he would go to Barcelona.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Interesting.

[Amy Lawrence]

Picking straight up from Danny's point. I think the element of surprise was so radical that I don't think there were many people that bothered to entertain the idea. And in fact it's very interesting that probably the only people who entertained the idea were the people who could make it happen. And that they managed to keep it so, so ridiculously silent just seems unthinkable. So basically from Arsenal's point of view at that period, Avenger was well established. She'd come in at the tail end of previous decade and won the double straight away and began that sort of transform of the English games culture with this fusion of sort of the best of British with the continental flair and set that kind of challenge up to Man United. The famous back four have been going for over a decade. It was literally in its Third decade, which is amazing when you think about it, started in the 80s, it went right through the 90s and into the 2000s. But it was evident that they can't go on forever. I mean, they were all in their 30s and not even just the beginnings of their 30s. So the beginnings of refreshment of that back four was something that was on Arsene Wenger's mind. And Tony Adams retired in 2002, so it was really coming towards the tail end. He was becoming less able to play regularly. So how do you replace your heartbeat centre back captain? Well, nobody in the world, apart from David Dean, Arsene Wenger and Sky Andrew, I think, thought that when you go and find that centre back heartbeat captain from four miles away, it just seemed something that there was not much point in thinking about it because it didn't seem like it was ever going to be a goer. So it wasn't really on people's lists or in people's minds. But evidently a conversation between Davidine and Skye, Andrew, possibly a little bit tongue in cheek happens where it's like, well, and they sort of both agree that there's something there and to start thinking about it. And from that point, the oddity of this courtship by night in a garden in Totteridge is just remarkable. So, you know, Sol clearly needed some persuading because he knew. Well, I say he knew. I don't think he did know. I think he thought he knew what was on the line in terms of moving across North London, but I don't think he really foresaw how it would be. But he was open to it. Cause he's a London lad. He clearly wasn't sure about going and playing abroad, even though he had every choice. And he was happy to listen. He was open to listen. And I think those hours spent pacing around the back of David Dean's garden at midnight, 1 o', clock, 2 o' clock in the morning, so that they wouldn't be seen talking about life, the universe and everything. And slowly, slowly, slowly developing that sense of trust was what made the difference.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Yeah, I really want to touch on Sky, Andrew, Danny, because I wonder, I mean, some might say very clever from the agent of Sol Campbell to sort of take advantage of this Bosman ruling. But also I'm looking at Tottenham Hotspur at the time. I'm thinking George Graham, David Pleat, were they a bit naive to think that, oh, here's a homegrown lad. Of course he'd never leave us. Of course he'd never leave for free at least.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, As I said, I think the. The football men, to use that awful phrase, hadn't yet remotely come to grips with the idea of what the Bosman transfer ruling, which was now part of the everyday conversation of professional football, actually meant. And I don't know whether. Who can tell? I don't know what they were thinking. They must have known that some. As the months went by and there were these famous meetings where, if you believe Alan Sugar, he would say, and we'll offer you this, this and this. And sky and Sol would nod sagely without saying a word. Which should have set alarm bells ringing enormously at Tottenham. But what could they do about it? It was in the last stages of his contract. He was telling them he was going to stay. He was saying on television he was going to stay.

[Amy Lawrence]

What about your situation, Sol? Will you be staying at Tottenham?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I'm staying.

[Amy Lawrence]

For the rest of the season or past this season?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Difficult questions, eh? I'm here.

[Danny Kelly]

You committed to the Tottenham.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

I'm here.

[Danny Kelly]

You can only take people at their word when he doesn't sign the contract. And it is clearly in direct contradictions of things he's saying in public, albeit often with reporters pointing a microphone at him like a gun about demanding that he says something. I don't know what else they could have done, really, but I don't know about naive. They just hadn't learned the rules, the new rules of football. And the new rules of football, when we saw it, you know, Arsenal fans will talk about when, you know, Thierry Henry goes to Barcelona or Patrick Vieira or Van Persie, people who've done in this series, it's all very much day to day now, thinking it's painful when people leave. The Campbell thing was extraordinary because no one had done the likes before. He said he wasn't going to do it and he did it. And sky and all the rest of they can congratulate themselves on being clever at the time. The fact that it's still bothering him and people 25 years later, I wonder whether they. They might think differently now. I don't know.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Okay, well, next, let's discuss the moment Campbell crosses the divide.

[Danny Kelly]

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[Ayo Akimwaleri]

It's a fantastic club. My decision was on football totally and a great team manager. The setup is is geared up to win so I want to be here and I'm here now. 3rd of July 2001 Sol Campbell is announced to the gathered media as an Arsenal player. Amy Shock Surprised that Arsenal actually pulled this one off?

[Amy Lawrence]

Well, I think a lot of people had the same kind of combination of emotions. One was absolutely stunned and second of all was from an Arsenal point of view. Obviously it won't be the same for you Danny, but thinking it was hilarious, I think when you were just talking about very little has happened similar and I agree with you on that, Danny. The only one who feels close in some respects is Figo when he went from Barcelona to Real Madrid. And I remember being at the game when the pig's head was thrown at Luis Figo and we were like wow, this was a remarkable piece of mad sporting social commentary theater. But it is so rare that it's two such bitter rivals and someone moves when they're at the peak of their powers. And I suspect even though we've become more accustomed to people leaving and going clubs and big deals and this and that, because of the way that social media has evolved in the last 20 years or so, it's probably less likely to happen now. I Think ultimately, if you're a player of Sol Campbell's caliber or Figo's caliber, you will have choices. And would you take that choice? You don't have to. You know, you're gonna have options. And I don't think there'd be many that would be willing to take that. Jump into the sort of abyss of toxicity that is inevitable and is. I mean, it was pretty bad then and we didn't really have social media. So let's be honest, I think to an extent, it was still a slight leap into the unknown of how it would be perceived. And probably there was a bit of a bubble, because I think these midnight chats where no one's there maybe allows you to think in your own head and kids you into thinking it'll be okay. It's not so bad because they were completely removed from the real world when they were having those conversations.

[Danny Kelly]

Amy, I think what you say is true, but I think the part of it, if you listen to David Dean, is that we were assuring Sol that he would be part of a family and it would be all okay and we would look after him. Whereas if the truth, David, and if you really had Sol Campbell's best interest as a human being at part, you would say, it's been lovely having these conversations in the garden in Totteridge. Do you like my chrysanthemums? You should do anything except sign for Arsenal, because I care about you as a human being. You should do absolutely anything else. Sign for Bayern, sign for Barcelona, do not sign for Arsenal. But of course, that whole business about looking after him is a load of made up nonsense, isn't it?

[Amy Lawrence]

Well, it is and it isn't. I do think that they did look after him in a way, and I do think he found a family there, a different family. So no doubt what he had before, that's not to underplay what he experienced as a young player coming through at Tottenham. But I think what he came into was a very. An unusual dressing room environment in that it was incredibly elite with these very charismatic players who were brilliant at what they did, and they were very well connected on a kind of human level as well, which, again, doesn't happen everywhere. I think that was a real appeal to Saul. He is quite a complicated character. How he exists within a wider environment is something he, I think, thinks about a lot, maybe overthinks, I don't know, but it's. I don't think he's a go with the flow kind of guy, evidently. So when you're. When you're not like that. I think he felt if I can live my best football life, by which he means trying to win big stuff and be competitive and successful, but also live my best sort of almost personal life. Of course, his personal life suffered from what he went into being this kind of symbol of this shocking move. But I think in the bubble of football in the training ground with the players on a day to day basis with Arsene Wenger, he found a happy place.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah. And listen, first of all, let me say absolutely that he, Sol Campbell has absolutely the right to run down his contract and go. What I can't seem to accept is that other people are. Therefore if we live in a free world, he's free to join Arsenal. Other people are free to have an opinion about that and a very strong opinion about it. And it's that that seems to be curdling away at him for the past quarter of a century. Of course, I'm former shop steward and rail unions. I want people to do the best they can professionally. But he must have known, or if he didn't, he was the one who was naive, that this would have a terrible, terrible backlash from supporters of the club that he'd been at. And they are entitled to that view, provided it is expressed within decency in the law, obviously. And this has been ongoing for 25. He just doesn't seem to want other people to have an opinion about it. I've got to say, soul, that's just too bad because we live in a free society. Thank goodness.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Okay, take yourself back then, Danny. You know, he's unveiled all the press. Are there cameras clicking? Some journalists?

[Amy Lawrence]

Well, there wasn't very many press there.

[Danny Kelly]

No, they were expecting. It was Richard Wright. It was supposed to be Richard Wright, wasn't it?

[Amy Lawrence]

There was hardly anyone there. Such was the secrecy. I mean, it wouldn't happen today. There was literally how not a single human outside of that inner circle knew. And there was no leak. And there was not even a tiniest hint. I mean, it was not a by appointment viewing for the top journalists at the time. There was hardly anyone there, which is kind of crazy.

[Danny Kelly]

Yeah, listen, I mean, I'm gonna be honest about this again. There have only been two times in my life and I bet the public wished there'd been more where I just couldn't speak. One was when some friends of mine, who were both very shy and rather retiring and rather reticent, announced to their peer group they were getting married. We didn't even know they were at the holding hands stage. Nevermind getting married. I remember my mouth flapping open and closed like a goldfish with absolutely nothing coming out. Not even congratulations to you both. I was sat in my Office of Football365. Oh yeah, I had an office, the big man. And I was, I was already miserable because I was expecting the announcement he was going to Barcelona. And even that was making me miserable. And I remember, I think they must have delegated the lady who looked after me secretary says those of us who run the company at the time, I think she was delegated to bring the news on the grounds that I was less likely to throw her out of a second floor window than somebody else because I like Kirsten a lot. In she comes and she says, I've been told to tell you that Sol Campbell has moved to Arsenal. Now I could see other members of the staff pressing against the window of my office to see what my reaction will be. I'm not making a word of this up. This is all true. And I sat there, I don't know, I've had things happen to me in my life. I've had life threatening disease, one stage. I've been divorced, my father died. I gotta be honest, I don't remember the emptiness of the feeling like that. And again my mouth opened and closed, opened and closed. And I can only describe it then and subsequently as a loss, a next door neighbor of grief. But I've gone through the stages out of order. There was, that was disbelief. And then at times I've done acceptance, particularly when I've spoken to Saul Campbell personally about it, which you no doubt want to hear about later to now I'm doing the anger stage again because he will not shut up about it.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Sounds like you've let it go too, Danny.

[Danny Kelly]

I let it go until he starts up again. I suspect there's some kind of bad relationship in the middle of all this. But at the time I was bewildered and I felt betrayed. How could he do this to us? Particularly, let's be truthful about it. Arsenal were one of the best teams in Europe at the time and spurs were really struggling. It felt a bit like kicking a man when he's down. I will say at this juncture, because it may not come up again. Some of what happened afterwards was much more positive for me. Indeed. Proof if you need it, that there may very well be a living and active God in the universe. One was the fact that within six months of Campbell going, Ladley King was the best centre half in England. And secondly, of course, the 2006 Champions League final When he looked like he was going to win it. And then the gods of football said, nah, spurs fans have had enough. Give them something. And Barcelona overtook them.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Henri Sol Campbell. Arsenal have stolen the lead in Paris. And he has through for larsson on Fereto. 1 1, Belletti 2 1, Barca. They've turned it right round. In a flash, Barcelona got there. In the end, Champions of Europe for a second time.

[Danny Kelly]

A series of events, of course, that may have threatened my. My life in a different way. I just started going out with the current Mrs. Kelly, who is an Arsenal fanatic, was at the match in Paris and did not share my views about Barcelona's late comeback. Thank you, God.

[Amy Lawrence]

I tell you what, you've made me a bit dumbfounded with that little bit there, Danny.

[Danny Kelly]

Why?

[Amy Lawrence]

Well, the idea of you being married to an Arsenal fan and relishing a moment of such pain for your loved one.

[Danny Kelly]

It was in early stages, Amy. Uproot now. I should have walked away right then. She should have walked away right then. Absolutely. No, I agree with that for many more reasons than football, I gotta be honest. But no. Now, I might say, set my face into a little sort of neutral grin, but, you know, these things, we have to get through this, Amy. I'm wearing my lads, it's Tottenham shirt. And at the recent Europa League final, we agreed that she didn't need to watch it with me. She. I think, to be fair to her, she wanted spurs to win for me. She knows what I felt about the final in Paris. We've got over it. Yeah, it's fine.

[Amy Lawrence]

I think it's really interesting because everything that we're essentially talking about here, it boils down to the fact that your football relationships are a version of love. You know, you've fallen in love with players sometimes, and that's why when they leave, they hurt you.

[Danny Kelly]

For football professionals, it's logic, it's science, it's money. For those of us who love football, it's emotion, it's passion and it's love. You used the correct word. Thank you.

[Amy Lawrence]

I remember Tony Adams at one point, after a big game with a big outcome, turning around to me and saying, you know, something like, it's my job, it's a job. And I found that quite hard to process at the time, because to me, as a fan who loves football and, you know, by extension, sometimes loves certain players or managers or people involved in it, and indeed, sometimes detest them, because love and hate, you know, they're on the same sphere, they're connected. It's really Difficult to remind yourself sometimes of that big differentiation between the people in the game for whom it is their job and the people like us who love it for whom it's nothing like a job. It's the raison d'. Etre. It's your be all and end all. It's the moments in your life where you feel the deepest, excuse my language, you know, and you get to feel these absolutely remarkable, mind bending highs and these horrific, devastating lows, all based on what people are doing that don't even know you exist. Yeah, it's a mad love. It's a totally illogical mad love.

[Danny Kelly]

And if they did know what you felt about them, maybe they'd cross the road to get away with you, wouldn't they?

[Amy Lawrence]

Exactly. It is quite terrifying. And that's why I sometimes think for a player or a manager or whatever you think, how could you do that? But they have to feel differently than we do, otherwise they'd go insane.

[Danny Kelly]

But look, we can update this. Look at Postecoglou's reaction to spurs fans. Some of them stating openly they wanted to deny Arsenal a title 18 months ago by losing to Manchester City. I didn't. I, you know, my own belief that spurs had two chances to stop Arsenal in the title. I've lost both games. So you, now you've got to take your medicine. I always want spurs to win, but he just did not get it. And I'm sure it's the same in Australia or Japan, wherever he's worked, but certainly in North London, his lack of understanding of what the fans feel about the game compared to what he, as a professional feel about it. I thought it was odd that he hadn't at least researched this. And of course he's been in Glasgow, you know, whether the thing is magnified a hundred times.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Can I also say, though, and there's something interesting that looking back at this case and just trying to understand it from an Arsenal perspective or it's a case, it's a case, we have to look at it that way because, you know, we are dissecting it bit by bit here. But the reality is, you know, you think about, about players and something we've just spoken about, you know, certain people might look at it as a job in that sense. Danny, if you're a player at a club and you're speaking to your seniors, your superiors and say, look, where are we going? I want to know, I want to know where we're going. I want to know that. Actually I'm ambitious. I want to know. You're Ambitious. And if they're not able to give you that feedback, surely that's where it becomes a conversation about actually yeah, I want to be manager at this job so I'm going to go to elsewhere who people first are going to pay me the money. Secondly, I know I'm going to be successful there as well.

[Danny Kelly]

That is one way of looking at it. You could also take the view of John Elway, the great quarterback of the Denver Broncos who was it trapped in a team that couldn't quite get over the line. And instead of doing what you did there, I owe despicable, absolutely despicable behavior. He took a pay deferment for a year so they could get in defensive linemen to get the team over the line. Bingo. I've won the Super Bowl. There are more than one ways to skin this particular cat. Though I do understand. I'm not naive, I'm not a fool. English professional football people will always, almost always go for. You mentioned the money as well there. They're very, you know, they hold. It's a short career and all the rest of it. Now look, as I say I'm gonna, I'll say it again, Sol Campbell had every right to go where he wanted to go as a human being and as a professional. What he can't do is control the response that people have to that.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

That. Okay, next, move on. Because next having made the move across North London, we'd analyze Campbell's success at Arsenal as well as his return to White Hart Lane.

[Danny Kelly]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.

[Amy Lawrence]

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[Ayo Akimwaleri]

This is Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. Your car says a lot about you. So if we car what it would say about you? What would it say? Listen, you dropped one of those tiny cheeseburgers under the seat like last week and now we're both dry heaving at the stench. Do us a favor, grab some Turtle Wax and let's get to work. This has been Car tracks with Turtle Wax. You are how you car.

[Danny Kelly]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulara. Many of them have been handing out leaflets outside the ground asking for a.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Minute of contempt to be shown towards Campbell.

[Danny Kelly]

Many of them, as you can see, are holding balloons. They bear the word Judas as do some of the banners here.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

And they are making their feelings plain towards their one time hero who now.

[Danny Kelly]

Lines up for their most fierce.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

In November 2001, Campbell made his return to White Hart Lane and received, how can we put this, A rather fascinating reception. Danny, you were there. How, how hateful was that towards Campbell? And also did we see any reaction from him as well?

[Danny Kelly]

Look, I think the word hateful is loaded, if you don't mind me saying that. It was a pretty, pretty rumbustious response I was very sensitive to. I didn't want it to spill over into for instance racial abuse or as sometimes was aimed at Sol Campbell. I never quite understood what the background to it was sort of homophobic abuse. It was pretty, pretty toxic. I'd never experienced anything like it in the spurs stadium. It didn't get personal around me so I wasn't able to. I didn't join in the booing. I gotta be honest, it is what it is. And now there's a football match to be played. I think he's a good person to be on the end of that in some ways because he exudes an outer appearance of calm and he floated above it to some extent and he didn't respond to it at all. Indeed, when Arsenal went on to win the title after the 22 draw at Whiteheart Lane, he didn't over celebrate then either. On the other hand, I also think as you alluded to, he is a very. People use the word complicated. I'd say he's a sensitive character as well and, and who knows what effect it was having on him. Luckily, as Amy's pointed out, he was in a brilliant football team full of players who were used to the biggest occasions and no doubt hostility. I couldn't argue with him about what he felt about it. It was good for the spurs fans to get some of this out in the open at least, though.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

What do you remember of it, Amy?

[Amy Lawrence]

Well, I would say that I've spoken to quite a lot of his teammates about that particular first game back. In fact, a lot of them voluntarily bring it up because I think even though everyone was anticipating what it might be like, they were, and a few of them have been around a few blocks, you know, even they were quite shocked. I think Arsenal's attempt, his teammates attempt to help him in the previous few days, I believe, was the kind of typical football default of sort of gallows humor, stroke banter, whatever you want to call it. And I think in training all week, they were booing him every time he got the ball and, you know, barging him about, trying to. Trying to give him some slightly tongue in cheek abuse. But once the coach got fairly close down Tottenham High Road, I think they realized that it was maybe more serious than they imagined. And they've just sort of described a sense of sort of vitriol that they'd never seen before as a bunch of players. And people even said, I didn't want to warm up next to him. You know, it was like they could almost feel this.

[Danny Kelly]

It was tangible, it was visceral.

[Amy Lawrence]

Yeah, really, really intense nastiness, I think, which I think a lot of football fans would have done similar in similar circumstances. It's, you know, it's not a Tottenham thing, it's a football thing, it's an emotion thing. But he did, I think, try and have this sort of force field that he erected. So he tried not to let it get to him, and he just wanted to play the game. But interesting you mentioned that. 2, 2. When Arsenal won the league in 2004 at White Hart Lane, Robbie Keane deep.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Into stoppage time.

[Amy Lawrence]

And it denied Arsenal the possibility of winning the League with a win at White Hart Lane.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Arsenal are the champions. Tottenham have a point. In amazing circumstances, the Championship is won at White Hart Lane.

[Amy Lawrence]

And what I didn't know until some years later was that when they went back into the dressing room, Sol was livid. They've just won the League at their rival's home. And the fact that they didn't win it with a win and it wasn't pure. He and Jens Lehmann, who was sort of blamed for giving away the goal because he got himself ruffled up and wound up like he tends to do, had a row in the draft. You know, you've just won the League and two of the players are actually having a proper argument because, you know, it feels like one of those examples where was it really about that or was that just the trigger to a lot of deeper emotions that, you know, came out in that moment? And I suspect it's the latter.

[Danny Kelly]

I'm not qualified, I'm not a psychiatrist, but he does seem to have a real difficulty with letting things go because I saw an interview with him recently talking about that exact incident where he said, then Robbie Keane did what he does in the present tense. You know, Robbie Keane does that. He throws himself at the goalkeeper and gets a penalty. More recently, and I mean literally days ago, he was talking about his love of chess and he talked about people who disparaged his love of chess as being very UN footbally 25, 30 years ago. And he said, and I've got it, I remember you clearly, there's something about Sol. I'll tell you. I'll go to the story I was going to tell earlier on in the run ups of this game, but not pertaining to the game, as I say, I'd done TV shows with Sol. Sky, Andrew and I were acquaintances, no more than that. I think sky thought though that I was probably the most sensible Tottenham Fanny knew. And some weeks, maybe a couple of months after the transfer, so before this game, I think I got a phone call from him which was very odd. He said, you know, I'm in the area, Danny. And he, when we spoke on the phone, as I remember, we spoke on the phone and he said, listen, you support spurs and we've got an all right. I said, what can I tell Saul about the reactions of this transfer? What were people feeling about it? And I remember the exact thing I said, and I shouldn't have done this. I'm a human being. I said, you can tell sold that in 40 years time when we're very old men sitting on the porches of our mock Tudor mansions in Essex, nursing something red, glossy and delicious, that I will never ever forgive him, tell him that. I don't know if he ever told Sol Campbell that. And of course I've changed because some years later, 2014, he was the subject of my Sporting Life interview on Talksport, where I sat with him for three hours talking about his life. And we got to the moment we had to talk about the transfer spur. And I got into terrible trouble with spurs fans because I didn't express hatred, I didn't by that stage, you know, life had moved on, the teams had moved on, the clubs had moved on. I would say that I was surprised that he still could find Absolutely not. One scintilla of sympathy with spurs or Spurs's fans. And on we go. To this day I say I got into the acceptance phase there. Now I've completely forgotten about it. Except when people like you ring me up and say you want to talk about Sol Camp on his transfer or when Sol appears on television making money out of other people's misery and pain.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Daddy, I'm not gonna lie. This all sounds still really raw with you. It still sounds very raw.

[Danny Kelly]

Oh, but you don't know me. That's the problem. I. I'm always at the very front of my personality. Everything is raw with me. If I see a list that doesn't put Marvin Gaye's what's Going on as number one album of all time, I am, I'm. I'm marching on the building that's produced that list with rakes and torches. Oh, man. Otherw. Is it just kind of carpet for people to rub their feet on with you?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Honestly. Right, let's talk about whether it was worth it, Amy, because, you know, I mean, look, we've spoken about the Van Persie going to Manchester United in, in this series of pods and obviously he ends up winning the league with Manchester United. Look at Sol Campbell. I mean, you're talking an FA cup and a league double in his debut season at Arsenal, then follows it on with the Invincibles run. I mean, fair to say that takes a certain amount of mental fortitude to do that. Go back to your old club and still deal with all that ab continuously and still be playing top, top football and winning the trophies you said you wanted to win by leaving your boyhood club.

[Amy Lawrence]

Yeah, but he's only going back into that lines then once, twice a season, depending on cup draws or whatever. So for 95% or whatever it is of the season, he's not living directly with how Tottenham fans feel about him. He's dealing with how.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

But I'm still being talked to on the street. He's in a cafe eating Judas. He'd still be having all that, surely?

[Amy Lawrence]

I don't know what kind of cafes he frequented. I mean, I couldn't possibly say, but I think on a day to day basis, generally, once he started playing, once he'd been back for the first time, which was the big one, I think he sort of got on with the day in front of him and the match in front of him and, you know, trying to win things. And he will regard his move as a success because he, he achieved fantastic things in a great team. He came into a Team which is, you know, you've got Patrick Vieira in front of you and Thierry Henry in front of them and Dennis Bergkamp and, you know, I think that's one of the things that was so appealing to him in the first place. With the greatest of respect to the players that he was playing alongside at Tottenham at that time. You sometimes watch a team like even at grassroots, bunch of kids and there's like one kid who stole way better than everybody else kind of thing. There comes a point at which it ceases to be as much fun or as challenging for that kid. And you've suddenly put them in a place where there's parity with the people around you and it elevates everything as an experience. I'm just talking about the football here, I'm not talking about any other side of things. And I think he absolutely loved being part of that team because it was full of some very strong characters, exquisite footballers, people with a lot of charisma and they were keyed up to win big stuff. And obviously, I mean, he became a cult hero of sorts because of where he'd come from. I think if Sol Campbell had come from any other club, I think if he'd have signed from Crystal palace or QPR or instead of Tottenham and been their best player, whether Arsenal fans would have had the same relationship or not, or put him on the sort of pedestal or singer types of songs they sung. But obviously it all related to where he came from because it gave that extra freesome about it. So yeah, I think he found a place where he fulfilled what he wanted to fulfill, football wise. And I wonder if also there's a sort of suspended disbelief version of things about all the emotional side of around it. Because when you are in football you do live in that quite insular world on a day to day basis within the sort of sanctuary, the changing rooms and the training ground. And there are not that many people around and you live. You can afford to go to very particular type of places if you want to go out or be around town. So you're not necessarily mingling with the sort of people who might come up and call you a Judas as much as might ordinarily happen. So I think possibly it might be more that when the career is finished, that's when you work out how much someone deals or doesn't deal with a big emotional. I don't know if trauma is the right word, but I suppose it was a trauma in a way. It was a sort of a mixture really of a. Of a great Experience, but it was traumatic, too. There's no disguising that.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Yeah. Danny, regardless of his standing with spurs fans, can we give him the credit he deserves in terms of being one of the greatest? We have to. He can be.

[Danny Kelly]

Come on.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

We could all stand outside ourselves and say, actually, I can stand outside myself and say Van Persie was superb as a player, even though he ended up going to Manchester United.

[Danny Kelly]

United. Come on, Danny. Sorry, what question are you actually asking me?

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Come on, give Soccer Campbell his standing as one of the greatest center backs in the Premier League. He's been very successful. Arsenal had a good stint at spurs as well.

[Danny Kelly]

First words out of my mouth on the podcast. He was a great player and, you know, he went off and did what he did at Arsenal. I got no problem with that. It was his football decision and nor do I. I don't know whether any of what happened subsequently plays on his mind and. And maybe it shouldn't. I just don't know. What I will say is that first game back with all of the shouting and roaring at him, which even the Arsenal fans admitted they'd never heard the like of, the trauma was not for Saul necessarily, but for spurs fans. And I believe that that game where he got given what they thought he deserved, and I say it has to stay within the bounds of decency and the law for me to approve of it. That was really important for Spurs. He was so important and it was so traumatic what happened to them. I think there was a danger the club might have faded away. So I actually think roaring at Sol Campbell to say, okay, you, we are not doormats, we are Tottenham Hotspur. I think there's a direct line between that and Bilbao. No shouting at Sol, no Bilbao.

[Amy Lawrence]

Danny, can I just ask you a question, like we spoke a bit at the beginning about how it came out of the blue. Do you see, think you or anyone would have felt differently about it if it had been in the more kind of modern times, a bit more build up and a bit more kind of knowledge of it before it happened?

[Danny Kelly]

I think, yeah, that's how things work now, isn't it? You let out the bad news or the possibility of bad news in bits and pieces. But also I think everybody involved, and I mean everybody involved would have had a more. A better idea of what might be going to happen, happen. And I don't just mean on the football pitch. I mean, you know, the. The reaction to it. The world has so been so completely transformed, Amy, by social media that I don't really know the answer to your question. I do know that furious as I was with Daniel Levy when Harry Kane left, I was delighted when Harry Kane won his trophy with Bayern Munich, albeit it wasn't as good as winning the Europa League. And I was equally, I was equally delighted, for what it's worth for Eric Dyer had also spent a decade of non trophy winning at Spurs. I think the world has changed so much, Amy. There's a more of an acceptance that footballers are going to follow their dream, let's put that phrase to be generous. And you couldn't keep the secrecy, you couldn't keep the transfer under wraps the way they did then. And indeed people listening to our voices will be going, what? One of the biggest transfers in Premier League history happened without anyone know about it. It just doesn't seem possible. And maybe, and maybe it's better now because you don't get these terrible, terrible shocks coming to your system in what you write described earlier on as relationships that border on love and therefore the shock is just terrible.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Let's line it up. This has been very heated conversation. Passionate, I would say in many respects, but actually just takes us back, I hope.

[Danny Kelly]

Respectful.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Yeah, no, very, very. I also just think, you know, it's one of those situations that, you know, sometimes something like the transfer sometimes overshadows the triumphs and achievements of a player. Not to say the play isn't great, but the news and the headlines around a transfer was much bigger noise in many respects as well. But yeah, honestly, thank you both so much for your time. Really appreciate your contributions. Well, that is it for our Transfers that Shook the World Series. We hope you've enjoyed listening to it. Please do let us know what you think about it. That's it for now. We'll catch you soon.

[Danny Kelly]

You've been listening to the Transfers that.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Shook the World here on the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark and Lucy Oliva with sound design by Jay Beale.

[Danny Kelly]

The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Danny Kelly]

Listen up.

[Amy Lawrence]

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[Danny Kelly]

Right now visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.

[Ayo Akimwaleri]

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