Vinicius, Mourinho and another ugly night for football

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Vinicius, Mourinho and Another Ugly Night for Football
Date: February 18, 2026
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Jay Harris, Dermot Corrigan

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Real Madrid's Champions League match at Benfica, which was overshadowed by allegations of racist abuse directed at Vinicius Jr. It explores the on-field incident, the reactions from players, staff, and the media, and the broader issue of racism in football. The episode also discusses club and managerial responses, the adequacy of existing protocols, and the emotional toll on those subjected to abuse.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Vinicius Jr.'s Standout Goal and Its Aftermath

[01:23–03:32]

• Vinicius Jr.'s performance:

  • Scored a "trademark" goal, demonstrating individual brilliance—described as one only a handful of players could achieve.
    • "There are only two players in the world who can score that goal, Vinicius Jr. And Mbappe. And he's bang on with that. It's a beautiful goal." — Ayo Akinwolere ([03:01])
  • Celebrated enthusiastically—an act that ignited a charged atmosphere among Benfica supporters.

• Celebration turns contentious:

  • Vinicius's dance celebration in front of Benfica fans led to a heated response from players and fans.
  • Referee issued Vinicius a yellow card, possibly to quell tensions, causing disbelief from the player.
    • "Vinicius, as he often does when he gets booked as well, he had that look of disbelief, like, how am I the one here who's getting punished?" — Jay Harris ([03:51])

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2. The Racism Allegation: What Happened on the Pitch

[04:42–06:19]

• Incident details:

  • Following the goal and celebration, a melee saw both teams' players involved.
  • Gianluca Prestiani (Benfica) was seen covering his mouth as he spoke to Vinicius Jr., after which Vinicius immediately reported racism to the referee.
  • Referee enacted FIFA's anti-racism protocol—signaling to the crowd.

• Allegations and reactions:

  • Multiple Real Madrid players, including Mbappe and Tchouameni, publicly stated they heard Prestiani use the racist slur "monkey."
    • "It feels bad, me even just saying it like that. But that's what Mbappe said in the press conference... Tchouameni also said it on Spanish TV." — Jay Harris ([05:33])
  • Benfica and Prestiani denied the allegations.

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3. The Burden on the Victim

[06:19–09:28]

• Emotional pressure:
  • Vinicius Jr. found isolated and deeply affected, sitting alone while staff and teammates debated next steps.
  • Emphasis often placed on the abused player to decide if play should continue—seen as unfair.
    • "So much emphasis is put on the individual who's been allegedly racially abused to basically decide whether the game goes ahead or not... it's quite unfair." — Ayo Akinwolere ([06:30])
    • "He had that pressure on his shoulders during those moments that he's sitting there after all that has happened to him... it's a huge weight on his shoulders." — Jay Harris ([08:16])

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4. Protocols, Investigations, and Inadequacies

[09:28–11:08], [35:50–38:50]

• Questions over current protocols:

  • Existing anti-racism protocols criticized as inadequate and ambiguous, especially in volatile, high-stakes matches.
  • Calls for investigations not only by match officials but also by governing bodies with real consequences.

• Precedent and enforcement:

  • Examples from La Liga where stadium bans, fines, and even prison sentences have been used for racist conduct—but such measures rarely apply to player-on-player incidents.
    • "That's the type of thing that we need to see more and more of. So people know there are repercussions to this, but it's a very strange situation when it's actually a player doing it." — Ayo Akinwolere ([09:53])

• UEFA’s response:

  • Plans to open an investigation, but skepticism around the thoroughness or speed, with no expected resolution before the next match.
    • "UEFA have moved in similar cases quite slowly before. They will take their time to gather the evidence... It may prove to be difficult." — Jay Harris ([36:07])

---

5. Club and Managerial Responses

[17:32–25:33]

• Prestiani’s denial:

  • Issued a statement on social media denying racism and claiming victimization by threats from Madrid players.
    • "I want to clarify that at no time did I direct racist insults to Vinnie Jr. Who regrettably misunderstood what he thought he heard. I was never racist with anyone and I regret the threat I received from Real Madrid players." — Dermot Corrigan, reading Prestiani's post ([17:32])

• Benfica’s PR efforts:

  • Released video evidence attempting to deny the allegation.
  • Questioned the credibility of reports from Madrid players.

• Mourinho’s reaction:

  • Defended Prestiani, blamed Vinicius and his celebration, described a climate in which racism claims are overblown.
  • Referenced Eusébio, a legendary black Benfica player, to defend the club’s image.
    • "He said, 'The biggest person in the history of this club is black Eusebio...This club, the last thing that it is is racist.'" — Dermot Corrigan ([25:33])
  • Guest analysis called out the racism in shifting blame and the hypocrisy of Mourinho’s statements.
    • "Mourinho sort of victim shaming, victim, blaming Vinicius is disgusting. There's no contrition whatsoever." — Ayo Akinwolere ([20:05])
    • "Seedorf spoke very well on TV as well when he said that Mourinho had let himself down...He just doesn't understand the contexts." — Jay Harris ([22:44])

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6. The Broader Societal Context of Racism in Football

[26:03–30:23]

• Gaslighting and the "not racist" defense:

  • Critique of using black icons like Eusébio to deflect or diminish present-day concerns.
    • "The easiest way you could probably put that is someone saying, I've got a black friend." — IO Akimolere ([26:16])
  • Importance of listening to victims and recognizing context.
    • "This is a bigger conversation. Should we be listening more than actually speaking for those who are going through these things and are victims of it?" — IO Akimolere ([28:21])

• Vinicius as "lightning rod":

  • His refusal to stay silent makes him a target for abuse and deflection.
    • "He has become a lightning rod for the issue...the fact that he stands up for himself..." — Jay Harris ([30:23])

• Societal failures bleed into football:

  • Football magnifies issues that pervade society at large.
    • "It's not a football issue, it's a societal issue. For whatever reason, it just gets magnified through football." — IO Akimolere ([39:23])

---

7. The Emotional Toll and Call for Change

[28:42–29:36], [39:23–41:00]

• Personal exhaustion:

  • Black journalists and footballers find discussions about racism emotionally draining.
    • "There are times where it's just exhausting because you know that no matter how often you talk about it, lots of people are just never going to take you that seriously." — IO Akimolere ([39:23])
  • Reflection on Vinicius Jr.'s public breakdown and reluctance to keep fighting the same battles.
    • "Do you think he wants to be up on stage talking about that? Do you think he wants to be sat on a bench? Do you think he wants to run to the referee and have to relive that experience over and over and over again? Of course he doesn't." — IO Akimolere ([28:42])

• Need for meaningful consequences:

  • Repeated calls for strong, consistent punishments for racist behavior at all levels.
    • "Governing bodies need to make sure there's tangible punishments." — IO Akimolere ([32:23])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ayo Akinwolere:

  • "There are only two players in the world who can score that goal, Vinicius Jr. And Mbappe. And he's bang on with that. It's a beautiful goal." ([03:01])
  • "So much emphasis is put on the individual who's been allegedly racially abused to basically decide whether the game goes ahead or not... it's quite unfair." ([06:30])
  • "Mourinho sort of victim shaming, victim, blaming Vinicius is disgusting." ([20:05])

• Jay Harris:

  • "Vinicius, as he often does when he gets booked as well, he had that look of disbelief, like, how am I the one here who's getting punished?" ([03:51])
  • "He has become a lightning rod for the issue if I can use that phrase...the fact that he stands up for himself." ([30:23])

• Dermot Corrigan:

  • "It's my side, right or wrong, that the morals goes out the window and it's a tribal kind of thing, that you're just with your people and you have to support your people." ([11:20])
  • "Disingenuous is the most gracious way I can describe what he (Mourinho) said." ([25:33])

---

Main Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:23 – 03:32: Vinicius Jr.’s goal and celebration
• 03:32 – 06:19: On-pitch altercation and racism allegation
• 06:19 – 09:28: Emotional toll on Vinicius, player burden
• 09:28 – 11:20: Protocols & examples of enforcement
• 17:32 – 25:33: Club, player, and Mourinho responses
• 26:03 – 30:23: Gaslighting, “not racist” defense, societal implications
• 35:50 – 38:50: What’s next—UEFA, investigations, skepticism
• 39:23 – 41:00: The exhaustion of discussing racism, emotional cost

---

Conclusion

The episode delivers a frank, passionate yet weary analysis of the racism scandal that marred an otherwise world-class Champions League match. It deconstructs the incident, acknowledges the failings of clubs, managers, and governing bodies, and argues forcefully for change—both in football and society at large. The hosts and guests stress the importance of not letting such conversations fade, even as they recognize the heavy toll on those most affected.

---

Transcript

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[Dermot Corrigan]

The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Real Madrid's 10 Champions League playoff first leg win at Benfica on Tuesday night was overshadowed by alleged racist abuse suffered by goalscorer Vinicius Junior. Coming up, we'll break down what happened, discuss the reaction and also what might happen next. All right, with me in the studio, we've got Jay Harris. We've also got Dermot Corrigan, who's in Spain as well. Right, Derma. Amidst what did happen, what I enjoyed seeing was a fabulous goal by Vini Jr, a player who's had quite a tricky season so far, but yet again comes up trumps for Real Madrid when he's needed. Talk us through that goal.

[Jay Harris]

Yeah, Trademark goal for Vinicius Jr. For sure. It was a hard fought game. Benfica had come out all guns blazing, trying to do again what they did last month to Madrid in the 4:2 and really overpower them and outplay them. But Madrid got a foothold in the game and then started to to take control really, but it was still very tight. And then five minutes into the second half, Mbappe Played the ball down the line to Vinicius, who had a bit of space, but he went straight for the Benfica right back, backed him into the box, made space for the shot, and then curled a really sweet shot up over the keeper Trubin, who's huge, into the far top corner. And it was real. Trademark Vinicius Jr goal. And then he went to celebrate. Trademark celebration from Vinicius as well. And then it all kicked off from there.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, Jay, this is why we love football, isn't it, for goals like that. It's why we pay our tickets to go watch a football match, to see extraordinary moments from football players.

[IO Akimolere]

Yeah, definitely. Mourinho said a lot of things after the game which were maybe not the most pleasant, but one thing he did say was that there are only two players in the world who can score that goal, Vinicius Jr. And Mbappe. And he's bang on with that. It's a beautiful goal. And as you sort of alluded to in the question you asked them, it's been a really tricky season for Vinicius Jr. With what happened when Jabby Alonso was in charge, etc. I think it's only a second goal in the Champions League this season. And this is someone we associate with performing on the big night. So, incredible goal, incredible moment. But we're probably not going to talk about it again for the rest of the show.

[Dermot Corrigan]

That's exactly why I wanted to get it over and done with, because the goal was fantastic. But there were also some rather unsavoury moments in the game at Derma. Firstly, talk to us about Vini's yellow card, the referee's interpretation of his celebration. You talked about the celebration earlier. Why would he have got a yellow card for that?

[Jay Harris]

You'd have to ask the referee for the full version on that. But what it looked like was Vinicius goes to the corner flag to dance. And there's a lot of angry Benfica fans in the stadium who had already been on Vinicius's back earlier on in the game, on all of the Madrid players, but especially Vinicius back during the game, and he celebrated right in front of them. You know, sometimes players go and do that, sometimes things kick off, sometimes they don't. Benfica supporters were outraged at that. Benfica's players as well. Otamendi, the captain, came over to have a word with Vinicius. Vinicius, Prestiani came over at that stage as well. And the referee decided to show a yellow card, maybe to calm things down in this situation or to try and calm things down. Vinicius had, as he often does when he gets booked as well, he had that look of disbelief, like, how am I the one here who's getting punished? And, yeah, it went on from there.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah. And we need to talk about the moment in which Vinicius Jr rushes to the referee. From what we know, anyway, what's been reported, Dermot, what actually did go down between Vini and also Gianluca Prestiani?

[Jay Harris]

What? It was one of those situations where there's a lot of players getting involved from both sides. It was very heated, as I said, with the atmosphere in the stadium. It's such a huge game, such a huge spotlight and everything on it, and different players from different sides were getting involved. It seemed to have calmed down a bit. The players went back to their own halves to restart the game. And at that point, we can see from the TV coverage that Prestani, who had earlier been talking to Vinicius, both of them have been giving it a bit. Bit back and forward. But Prestani then puts his jersey, his mouth, as if to hide what he is about to say, says something to Vinitius, who immediately runs to the referee. We know that happened for sure because the referee immediately started to roll out the FIFA protocol for what happens in such situations, made the gesture, crossed his wrists and held his arms up so that everybody in the stadium and everybody watching at home could see that Vinicius felt that he had been racially abused. And yeah, then later on, you know, lots of the Madrid players, multiple Madrid players, came out and said that they had heard Prestiani say that Vinicius is a monkey, which is. It feels bad, me even just saying it like that. But that's what Mbappe said in the press conference or in the mix zone after the game. Tchouameni also said it on Spanish tv. And Vinicius himself has been clear that he feels he was racially abused by Prestiani.

[Dermot Corrigan]

And we must reiterate that these are all allegations at this stage that Benfica deny at any stage. Did we feel that Madrid might end up walking out, for instance, off the pitch?

[IO Akimolere]

I think in these situations, what I don't like is that so much emphasis is put on the individual who's been allegedly racially abused to basically decide whether the game goes ahead or not. And I sort of go back to the beginning of the Premier League season when a similar incident happened with Antoine Semeno at Anfield when Liverpool were playing Bournemouth. And so this sort of pressure where everybody's talking. Mourinho goes up to Vinicius Junior, Real Madrid. Vini's Real Madrid teammates go up to him. There's back and forth between the Benfica staff and the Real Madrid staff. I think a Benfica staff member gets sent off. It's just chaotic. And I just really don't like the fact that from my perspective, it felt like not many people in that moment actually genuinely cared about the welfare of Vinicius Junior. Some of his teammates did, for sure, but it was almost like everybody was trying to get one up on each other. Benfica should have taken a step back and sort of said, okay, it's a serious allegation here. And I almost feel like the protocol, I'm not entirely sure what purpose it serves. I know it's only recently come in, but I do wonder if it's better in that moment in time to take both teams to the dressing room and have the captains from both teams then sort of have a discussion with the referee, the coaching staff, etc. And decide what happens next. Because it was chaos. I think the game stopped for 10 minutes. I just don't think it's fair in that moment of time for Vinicius Jr. To sort of determine whether the game goes ahead or not. And Mbappe said that after the game that we're a team, we're with him. Whether he decided to walk off or continue playing, we are with him, which I admire. But I just feel like so much pressure is put on the alleged victim in that situation. It's quite unfair. They're already having to deal with some really nasty comments, allegedly, and now they've got to determine whether the game goes ahead or not.

[Jay Harris]

It was difficult to work out for everybody what was going on, even the players who were involved. But the image of Vinicius sitting alone on the bench and then people coming over to talk to him. Arbolo chatted to him for a good while. The Madrid coach, Mourinho, spoke to him as well, and Arbolo said afterwards that Mourinho was trying to convince them to go on and play the game. So Vinicius had that pressure on his shoulders during those moments that he's sitting there after all that has happened to him and he's gone. It's up to him. He knows how many million people are watching it on the TV at that time as well. There's the pressure on him, and it is. It was good. And I guess for Mbappe to say, we're with you, Vinnie. Whatever you want to do, we'll do, and Arboloa said that as well afterwards, that if Vinicius had said, look, I'm out of here, I'm not going to play on that Madrid would have walked off. I guess that's a hypothetical. We won't know what. What would have happened in that situation. But it is a lot of pressure on the player and they are individuals, they're young guys as well in this situation. Vini unfortunately has a lot of experience in this situation and is able to handle it for sure, but it's a huge weight on his shoulders and it's just really unfortunate that he is the one again with all of that pressure on him and all that spike light on him in those moments.

[Dermot Corrigan]

I wonder if this is a wider conversation around the protection, not just for Vini, but just in general when it comes to racism in football. Jay, the football pitch, is that back to what you said, that there feels like an isolation for the players to deal with it. But actually it's the wider protocols which we did see, even though it's still early in its stages, should be very, very clear and everyone on that field knows exactly what is going on.

[IO Akimolere]

Of course it is. And something else that Trent Alexander Arnold said, which I think is particularly interesting, is he spoke about, and Dermot's already touched on it, that it was a very hostile environment from minute one. But Trent Alexander also says the way they reacted to that incident wasn't particularly pleasant as well. It's sort of like they just piled on Vinicius Jr. Even more so. Sort of the lack of awareness from the. From the fans to the seriousness of the situation. Maybe they just don't care about the severity of the situation. I think that's quite concerning as well. But the idea that he can cover his shirt and he thinks he's going to get away with whatever comment he's made is ludicrous. There needs to be investigation, I think, and Dermot can touch on this more because he's written about it. You can see where La Liga have got a little bit tougher on some of the treatment Vinicius Juniors received over the. Over recent years, where fans who have abused Vinicius Jr at games have been given prison sentences, they've been given fines, they've been banned from stadiums. That's the type of thing that we need to see more and more and more of. So people know there are repercussions to this, but it's a very strange situation when it's actually a player doing it. So like I said, investigation needs to happen and I think if they determine that what Prestigni is alleged to have said he did say, then I think he needs to be suspended for a considerable length of time.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, it's really interesting what Jay's saying. If Spain are doing something about it, why aren't we seeing a wider conversation about this? Derma, when it comes to the biggest stage in European football, which is the.

[Jay Harris]

Champions League, like La Liga have, they were maybe slow to react at the start, when Vinicius started to suffer racist abuse in stadiums a couple of years ago. And there were some unfortunate, maybe, responses from people in authority in Spanish football at the start, but they maybe realized what a bad look it was for Spanish football, for Spain as well, and from their own kind of reputational point of view, as well as maybe the human side of it as well. But they realized there was kind of a commercial or reputational problem for them that they had to fight. And they have worked, put an awful lot of work and resources into pursuing criminal investigations against people who make racist statements or give racist abuse to players in stadiums. They need proof. They need to have an audio of somebody, an individual, video evidence to show that it was exactly this person who said exactly this thing or made exactly this gesture in this moment. That's what makes it so difficult between players on the pitch. There was a case in Spanish football before, a couple years back, involving a Cadiz defender, Cala and Valencia defender Diego, that was similar enough in this, in that there was a difference over what had been said. Kala claimed to have been misheard by De Cabbie. And in that case, it went on, dragged on for a long time, but there was no action could be taken because it was just one person's word against another person's word. And in the view of the authorities, that wasn't enough to act. I would say that in that case with Karis and Valencia, everybody takes their own sides. And it happened again last night that as soon as something happens, nobody seems to be that worried about finding out exactly what was said. Everybody rushes in to defend their side, their people. Benfica did it. We've seen it in Argentina, people have done it in Brazil, people have done it in Spain. As soon as something like this happens, there's a rush to stick to your own side, no matter what. We saw with Mourinho's response after the game as well. We've seen it in English football with Patrice Evra and Luis Suarez has gone back a good while ago now. But even in that case, it's just people are more worried about sticking up for their own side. They don't want their own team to be punished. They don't want to lose out in any way. And there's an almost feeling that you have to just. It's my side, right or wrong, that the morals goes out the window and it's a tribal kind of thing, that you're just with your people and you have to support your people. Which is not a great way of looking at it really. I would argue. And again, I'm not talking about Prestiani in this specific case, but it would be nice at some point if somebody, if such an incident like this happened and it's a young kid in a pressurized situation and they just come out and say, look, I made a mistake. I misspoke in that minute. That's what I said. I'm sorry for it. It doesn't really represent how I am. These things happen in the heat of the moment and I would like to apologize, I would like to make clear that I'm against racism, even if I did misspeak in a certain moment, that I'm against it. And then the club can go. We're against it as well, this guy. We're gonna use it as maybe a learning thing. We're going to bring in education for our players, for our fans, for everybody in football. And to view it that way instead of viewing it automatically as an us against them situation would be nice if it were to happen. But it hasn't happened yet, and based on last night, I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon. Maybe it's a bit optimistic to think that way, or idealistic or whatever, but it would be nice if that happens sometimes.

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[Jay Harris]

Can I make my site firmer?

[IO Akimolere]

Can we sleep cooler?

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[Dermot Corrigan]

Prestiani, I must say, has denied the allegation on Instagram in a post that says I want to clarify that at no time did I direct racist insults to Vinnie Jr. Who regrettably misunderstood what he thought he heard. I was never racist with anyone and I regret the threat I received from Real Madrid players. I guess my question is what has been Benfica's version of the incident? I'm sure their PR machine has also gone out on socials to maybe counteract what we've seen on the field.

[IO Akimolere]

Well, firstly, just on the final sentence of Prestiani's Instagram post where he sort of talks about, I regret the threats I've received from. From Real Madrid players trying to frame himself as the victim straight away, which I think is extremely distasteful. And Thierry Henry on. On U.S. coverage of this game, I think said it perfectly. Why did you cover your. Your mouth?

[Dermot Corrigan]

Joe Paul said something very similar on tnt.

[IO Akimolere]

You know, you shouldn't have anything to hide, so that immediately makes you look suspicious. The fact you're doing it, it's a very unnatural thing to do. We almost have to really highlight how ridiculous it is to make that movement in the first place. It's very clear that you're trying to cover it up. We often see it at the end of a Premier League game where you.

[Dermot Corrigan]

See somebody together when they don't want the cameras to see what they're talking about.

[IO Akimolere]

Exactly. So we all know what that action is. So Vinicius Jr. And Prestiani can debate over what exactly was said, but clearly, I think it's pretty obvious Prestiani said something that he didn't want people to pick up. What the actual content of that is, we'll hopefully find out at another time. In regards to Benfica's reaction, firstly, I'll touch upon a video they've released on social media where they're basically trying to win the PR war and. And claim that what Vinicius Jr alleged didn't happen. And there's this particular angle where they're basically saying that no Real Madrid players are near enough Prestiani to overhear what's happened, which I think is a bit ludicrous. Secondly, you can hear Benfica fans clearly saying quite unpleasant things to Vinicius Jr. In the video anyways, so I don't know why you'd. You'd release that footage into the world. And then I've seen a footage that I think was captured from the stands where, as you pointed out, Vinicius Jr. Reacts immediately. And you can also see Mbappe sort of swivel his head quite quickly and then point at Prestigni. So he. He clearly knows that something out of order has been said. I think what I'm really disappointed by, but I'm not surprised by, is Mourinho's actions.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Okay, we want to talk about that. Yeah, for sure.

[IO Akimolere]

And let me just sort of say Mourinho said there's something wrong, because it happens in every stadium. Every stadium where Vinicius plays. Something happens always. I'll start off on that bit first and then Dermot can come in on his references to you, Sabio Mourinho, sort of victim shaming victim, blaming Vinicius is disgusting. There's no contrition whatsoever. There's no sense of. I feel really sorry that Vinicius Jr. Has been put in that situation. Let's all take a step back, let the authorities investigate, and we'll come to the conclusion of the matter. I know straight away he's got to go on the offensive. Vinicius Jr. His celebration is a dance. That's something that's embedded in Brazilian culture, right? Black Brazilian cultures, specifically, people have an issue with black people, especially young black men, expressing themselves in public in a particular way. And I think that's. There are undertones of that in Mourinho's comments. You know, you're allowed to score a goal, you're allowed to celebrate, but you have to do it in this very specific way, otherwise you're going to offend people.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Is it somewhat hypocritical as Joseph Mourinho is a manager known to stone?

[IO Akimolere]

Of course, you know, running along the touchdown? Of course it is, but it's completely hypocrisy, hypocritical. And that's what I mean. It's. It's one rule for. For certain people in the world, and there's another rule for black people entirely. And the other thing is, and it's not something I've seen mentioned a lot. A year ago, when Mourinho was in charge of Felipe, they played Galatasarai in a game and Mourinho was banned for two games because he said that the Galatasarai bench was jumping up and down like monkeys. Now, Mourinho always claimed, and Fernabacci claimed, that that was sort of taken out of context. There's no racial undertones in that. But I'm sorry, you just can't say a phrase like that. At best, it's careless. And personally, that's unforgivable saying it in that context. So I did not expect anything less other than Mourinho to sort of completely change the narrative. I think it's just a real shame that he's done that.

[Dermot Corrigan]

I've looked across a lot of social medias and commentators this morning, Thurmott, in regards to Mourinho's remarks. And there seems to be a level of, I guess, disappointment, disappointment at what he said. And I also just think of also the black players that play for Benfica. I mean, there's a whole heap of black players there who are looking to the leader, the manager, the head coach, to be able to deal with these kind of situations in a way that also recognizes them as part of a wider conversation. Where do we lie with how perhaps Mourinho has dealt with this?

[Jay Harris]

Yeah, not very well, I thought Clarence Seedorf spoke very well on TV as well when he said that Mourinho had let himself down. And I think his comments show. And it's really interesting to listen to you guys talking about this, for sure. But Mourinho's comments show that he just doesn't understand the situation, that he doesn't understand the contexts that Jay is putting so well there beforehand. It just doesn't occur to him in the moment at all to think about it. Okay, he's an emotional guy, as Seydorf said as well, and the passion is open. This atmosphere in the stadium was incredible. But there's no Once the incident happens again, Mourinho just looked to defend his own, to defend himself, wasn't thinking about the black players in his team at all, how they might react to what has happened, only wanted to go back on the attack, divert attention from what had happened, blame Vinicius for what had happened. He also had a real go at the referee, was talking about a conspiracy that the referee didn't want to book any of the Madrid players who might be out of the second leg, which something we've heard from Mourinho before. But there's an instinctive Israel type of reaction in these situations that Mourinho has done before, to defend himself, to defend his own people, to defend his own tribe, I would say. And that's what it looked to me like he was doing in the situation, not thinking at all about the wider context or how maybe it's a lot to ask of somebody, but how we could use this as an example to be better in the future, anything like that didn't come into his mind at all. Yeah, it was very disappointing, I think, for Mourinho, and it came in a moment as well for Mourinho, which was pretty interesting around his relationship with Real Madrid, because after the first game a couple of weeks ago, when Benfica beat Madrid 4, 2, there was a lot of talk about how Mourinho was coming back as a manager, maybe might even come back to Real Madrid and coach Real Madrid again. Before the game, Mourinho talked about how he still felt like a Madridista, how he still had this connection to the club, Even though it's 12 or 13 years since he'd left, that you know he was. I wouldn't say he was putting himself out there for the Madrid job in the future, but he definitely wasn't ruling it out at all. But when the moment comes, he was 100% Benfica in that moment, he wasn't at all Real Madrid. He was again. It's just the people who are on my side that I want to stick up for, and I don't care about the. What it feels like for my reputation or I don't care what anybody else wants to say to me. I'm not going to accept any criticism of my behavior. I'm not going to accept any criticism of my player's behavior. Even though he couldn't have known what was said in that moment, he knew what Vinicius told him. He knew what Prestiani had told him, that it was a different version of the events. And Mourinho said himself, I'm not going to judge. I could take one side or another side. I'm not going to try to take one side. But I think in the way that he reacted, in the way that he talked about Vinicius provoking, he did take one side and he was being, yeah, disingenuous is the most gracious way I can describe what he said.

[IO Akimolere]

Can I just ask you IO about Mourinho's comments on Eusebio? And so, for people listening who haven't seen it, this is what Mourinho said. He said, I told him, Vinicius, that when you score a goal like that, you just celebrate and walk back. When he was arguing about racism, I told him that the biggest person in the history of this club is black Eusebio, this club, the last thing that it is is racist. If in his mind there was something racist, this is Benfica. When you saw that, what did you think about those comments?

[Dermot Corrigan]

I think it goes back to what feels like a relative gaslighting of what racism is and whether or not it actually exists. The easiest way you could probably put that is someone saying, I've got a black friend.

[IO Akimolere]

But, yeah, I saw this was the most extreme example of that type of racism.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Doesn't exist by putting Eusobio up there, who was an incredible player, Portuguese player, incredible Benfica hero. You already set the standard that there couldn't possibly be any other subtext around racism, because that is your hero. But that's obviously wrong, because you can look at Pele, you can look at Eusobio. Like growing up in a particular time when you are the only one in those spaces, means that often there's A pressure not to be able to articulate in a wider context some of the woes you're going through. Right. And also, I think the reality is you have a player in comparison to Vinicius Jr. Who's trying to move the conversation on. And actually, instead of listening, what you're doing is therefore dousing his reality by putting your lens onto his reality. And I think that's where we're in danger, really, when we talk about race. It's actually sometimes people need to look at the lens in which they're looking at it through. If Jose Mourinho has never been faced with any ramification around his race or ethnicity because of the antagonizing he's done to crowds, it doesn't mean a young man like Vinicius Jr. Hasn't received that because he is black. And actually, this is the bigger conversation. Should we be listening more than actually speaking for those who are going through these things and are victims of it? That's what I saw from it. And I think, you know, especially in positions of leadership, that's where you're looking for allyship in these conversations. From someone who is regarded brilliantly in the game, someone who's got a great voice in the game. There's almost, dare I say, a diplomatic way of looking at so many of these things. There is one way to back your player, but there's also another way to condemn the wider issue around racism. I think it was an opportunity miss personally. It's such a tricky one to go around because, you know, this isn't just about football. And Dermot, you'll know it. You'll know it. Jay. This is a bigger conversation about a wider societal issue. And I think sometimes you look at football to have the answers, which it should, because if you look at the amount of people that play football globally, there are a lot of people that look like me and Jay, and all they're asking for is some support when things don't go right for them. And actually, instead of them being the ones that speak about it, you're looking at the wider governing bodies to do something about it as well.

[IO Akimolere]

Do you know what we should mention? I don't know if you were there, Dermot, but I. It's only a couple of years ago that Vinicius Jr did a press conference and he was in tears talking about, I feel sadder and sadder, and I have less and less desire to play, but if I leave, I'm gonna give the racists what they want. And so for people to see that Image of a young boy. He's 25 now, so I think he was 23 when he said that, in tears about the abuse that he receives. And for people to not take a step back and take that seriously. Do you think he wants to be up on stage talking about that? Do you think he wants to be sat on a bench? Do you think he wants to run to the referee and have to relive that experience over and over and over again? Of course he doesn't. And I think that's what some people forget. No one wants to be in that situation. He's just reacting to it in the most, really the most sensible way possible because he initiated the protocol, but still was an absolute fast with what happened in the next 10 minutes after.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, and I think, you know, this is where we need to be really careful, is the vilification of a player when they speak out about what's unjust. I think it's quite easy to throw the narrative on them that they've created it, which obviously Mourinho has, or antagonized it. But also back to your wider conversation or wider context of something you said about certain players that are seen as flashy or certain players that are seen as, you know, going beyond their status. How they're dealt with when it comes to Western ideals is really, really fascinating. But also Dermot and the wider context of Vinnie in Spain. I mean, this harks back to some of the conversations we've had on this podcast, and sorry to keep bringing you back to them, but, you know, this is something that just doesn't seem to go away.

[Jay Harris]

Yeah. Like Vidicius, for the bravery that he's shown and for the intelligence that he has shown or the character that he has shown in pointing out the things that he's had to go through. He has become a lightning rod for the issue, if I can use that phrase. Go back to what Mourinho said, you know, why does it always happen to him? Or why is happening in so many stadiums? You often hear fans of other clubs who have been in this situation where a fan or a player is accused of racism saying, but Madrid have lots of other black players. They have Tchouameni and Camavinga and David Alba and how come they never get ratio views? As if it's something that Vinicius himself is doing that brings it on him. And I'm not saying that it's something of Vinicius that brings it on him, but it is the fact that he stands up for himself and the fact that he has said before that there are some people in Europe, I guess, in Brazil as well, who don't like to see a successful, confident young black guy, you know, who's. He is a bit arrogant, I guess we can say, you know, he's earned it. He scored a lot of goals. He's a guy with a very high opinion of himself. He's a guy who sees himself as a global superstar. You know, we've talked about it on the podcast in a different situation, about how maybe he doesn't always live up his performances, haven't always lived up to his own opinion of himself. He's a guy who felt he should have won the Ballon d'. Or. And people then take that and see him as being somebody who has got above his station, as Jay is saying there as well, and feel that they have the right to take him down a peg or two. And that's. I think that all feeds into to what happened in Spanish stadiums in the past. Again, we're not sure exactly what happened at Benfica last night and what was going through Prestiani's mind when he covered his mouth to say something that he didn't want overheard. Only he himself really knows. But it is a case that Vinicius, because of the bravery he's shown and because of the stance he has taken in this, it has contributed to these type of situations, which is not in any way to say that he's to blame for what happened.

[IO Akimolere]

Do you know what? Quickly, I was just typing away because I needed to double check something. Governing bodies need to make sure there's tangible punishments. Probably the biggest example in the last couple of years involves another Argentinian player, and it's Enzo Fernandez after they won the Copa America, right? Where he is caught on video singing a reprehensible song about the origins of a lot of the players in the French national team, right? And he was never banned for that because it doesn't fall under the FA's jurisdiction because he was playing for Argentina at the time. It's something FIFA needed to investigate. Nothing happened. You've got the World cup winning team, one of the players of the tournament at that World cup, they've now won another competition and no sort of punishment has happened. So, yes, you can enact the protocol during the game and you can make this gesture, but when you allow things like that to happen, you are sending a messages, message to the world saying, we only care about racism. In certain incidences, we only care about racism. X Amount Derma made a fantastic point earlier. LaLiga started to care when they thought, oh, our product financially is taking a hit, our reputation is taking a hit. We better clean this up. How much they actually genuinely cared about the impact it was having on Vinicius Jr. And other players. De Okabi is up for debate, but when you see things like that happen and they go unpunished, that sort of tells you everything you need to know. That's not taken seriously enough.

[Dermot Corrigan]

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[Dermot Corrigan]

All right, Dermot, let the let's try and see what happens next. I mean, where are UEFA in this? I mean, this is their tournament, right? And obviously we've seen the referee show that gesture of anti racism to try and deal with the protocol. Where do UEFA stand now?

[Jay Harris]

Kylian Mbappe super articulate after the game as he so often is Mbappe talking about anything. He's very articulate, but he said. Called on UEFA to intervene. He said he doesn't think Presiani should play in the competition again. I guess he meant this season, but maybe he meant ever in his career, which would be Mbappe's argument to make. UEFA themselves have indicated, I think we could say that they will look into it, that they are going to see if they can launch an investigation or if there is evidence in order to launch an investigation. There's a chance that it comes down to being able to prove exactly what was said, which may prove to be difficult. There's no. Again, Prestiani is very clear with his statement that he, you know, at no time did he say anything racist, that he's been misinterpreted. Benfica have been very clear from Mourinho down that they are going to defend their player and accept his version of the events. UEFA have moved in similar cases quite slowly before. They will take their time to gather the evidence. Maybe they will. They could go and talk to different people. They could launch a proper investigation and go and take statements from everybody who were involved. That might be a good thing to do. I'm not sure if their investigation is going to be so in depth as that. Nothing is going to happen before for next week's game at the Bernabeu. I think it's pretty clear. Next Wednesday, Benfica are back at the Bernabeu. Mourinho's banned for that game because of his sending off, but he'll be at the press conference beforehand. Prestiani, is he going to play in that game? Be interesting to see what the response is from the Madrid players, from the Madrid fans, everybody who Dubenfica put up for their press conference. Again, I don't know if I'm being too optimistic or naive or something by going back to the idea that maybe they could put one of their black players up to talk before the game and talk about racism. What they felt.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Benfica or Real Madrid?

[Jay Harris]

Benfica. They don't have to say. I don't believe Prestiani. Or you can move aside and talk about the issue without having to talk about exactly what happened in that case. But again, I don't really expect that to happen. So it happened with Antonio Rudiger at the club World cup, in a game against Pachuca, I think the Mexican team, Rudiger was sure that he had been racially abused. Again, the protocol was followed, the referee stopped the game, made the gesture. But there was an investigation which in the end wasn't able to find enough evidence to move forward and nothing really happened there. So maybe that will happen again in this situation with UEFA, but you can't prejudge that. We have to let it play out and see what happens so quickly.

[IO Akimolere]

It looks like UEFA have released a statement basically saying a UEFA ethics and disciplinary inspector has been appointed to investigate allegations of discriminatory inspectors behaviour.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, I guess.

[IO Akimolere]

Which we're sort of the bare minimum.

[Dermot Corrigan]

That is the least that can be done here from a purely football purist perspective, Jay, is it a shame that we are still not lauding at what was an incredible goal, actually a really good game for Real Madrid, considering the season that they've had, you know, after Benfica obviously beat them, to both get into this situation, what that game really was, was a fight back to show that you are the best team in Europe. But actually what we're talking about is what we've just spoken about for the last half hour or so.

[IO Akimolere]

Of course it's a shame. And look, I'll be honest, you know, when the producer said, do you want to come in and talk about it? My initial reaction was no, because there are periods of time, and I'm sure you'll understand this as a someone with mixed heritage, you know, Caribbean and black British, sometimes there are times I really want to go to bat for my community and my heritage and my culture and talk to people. I try to educate myself all the time. You know, I really enjoy AFCON because I get to experience different cultures and stuff like that. That and there are times where it's just exhausting because you know that no matter how often you talk about it, lots of people are just never going to take you that seriously. So how many times have we probably done similar conversations like this over the years when, like, I remember it was happening a lot in lockdown, when Premier League players seem to be getting racially abused all the time on social media and stuff. You talk about it, it shouldn't happen again, et cetera, et cetera. Authorities are going to clamp down on it and then you get incidents. Like, I remember Ivan Tony, because I covered Brentford, he got racially abused after a game. Obviously, what happened with Antoine Semenya at the beginning of the season, it just constantly happens again and again and again. We're talking about it from a football perspective. It's not a football issue, it's a societal issue. For whatever reason, it just gets magnified through football. So it is a horrendous shame that we have to talk about it. But following conversation with producer Mike it is also important that we do talk about it and that we don't let it slide. And that's sort of the difficult situation we find ourselves in. Vinicius finds himself in. Because if you ignore it and you don't talk about it, you're almost letting the perpetrators get away with it. But at the same time, there's a real emotional and mental and psychological cost of constantly having to speak, having to talk about it, having to deal with it time after time after time.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Okay gents, let's leave it there. I was going to say I hope we don't have to talk about this again, but I mean, we know the situation anyway. Dermot, appreciate your time. Jay, thanks for joining me in the studio. And also thank you guys for joining us as well. It's definitely a meaty conversation to have. We'll catch you soon.

[Podcast Host]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Joe Beale, with editing by Paul Iliffe and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe the Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production.

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