Vinicius vs Xabi Alonso: what's going on?

Summary

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The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Vinicius vs Xabi Alonso: What's Going On?
Date: November 26, 2025
Host: Ayo Akimolere
Guests: Mario Cortegana, Dermot Corrigan, Jack Lang

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the growing tension at Real Madrid between star winger Vinicius Jr. and new head coach Xabi Alonso. The panel unpacks the roots of their fractured relationship, the impact on Vinicius’ contract situation, the club’s shifting hierarchy with Kylian Mbappé’s arrival, and how these dynamics could shape both Real Madrid’s season and Vinicius’ future. The discussion also extends to Vinicius’ status with Brazil, the challenges of becoming a national talisman, and broader reflections on Real Madrid’s perpetual drama amid changes at the club.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Vinicius–Alonso Rift

• Xabi Alonso’s Early Decisions:
  • The friction began at the Club World Cup (02:14), where Alonso planned to bench Vinicius Jr. in the semifinal—an unusual move for a star player.
  • "He has been benched four times, something that’s really unusual, not just for Vinicius, but for any star in the world of football." – Mario Cortegana [02:14-03:09]
• Stats Paint the Picture:
  • Vinicius has started only 5 out of 17 games that season, a departure from previous years.

2. Latest on Vinicius’ Real Madrid Contract

• Breakdown in Renewal Talks:
  • Following a tense El Clasico, Vinicius met with President Florentino Perez, apologizing for his reaction and discussing contract renewal. Talks are stalled, with Vinicius unwilling to extend “under the current scenario.”
  • “As long as this lack of feeling with his coach remains, it would be difficult for him to accept.” – Mario Cortegana [03:51-04:37]
  • Contract talks are further complicated by a significant wage gap.

3. Can the Relationship Be Repaired?

• Entrenched Positions:
  • Alonso is unwavering, believing benched roles can benefit the team. Vinicius views himself as indispensable, drawing comparisons to how Mbappé is treated.
  • “It’s difficult to convince Vinicius that he should happily accept he could be benched, or to convince Alonso he shouldn’t bench Vinicius. I’m not optimistic at this point.” – Mario Cortegana [05:05-06:21]

4. Florentino Perez: The Decider

• Perez’s Balancing Act:
  • While Perez feels close to Vinicius, his loyalty ultimately lies with the club’s performance and big signings—most notably Mbappé.
  • “At Real Madrid, there is only one person in control… and it is Florentino Perez.” – Dermot Corrigan [06:44]
  • “Vinicius has been really good…but his goals and assists have not been at the same standard as before. Mbappé is now the main man.” – [06:44-09:50]
• Future Uncertainty:
  • If Alonso’s tactics succeed, Perez will back him. If not, change could come in the summer.

5. Where Does Vinicius Stand Among Madrid’s Stars?

• Not the Main Man:
  • Vinicius is now “one of the stars, not the star.” This echoes Neymar’s role at Barcelona.
  • “This is Mbappé’s team now and it does not sound like Vinicius is willing to get on board with that.” – Ayo Akimolere [09:50-10:30]

6. Fan Reaction and Locker Room Dynamics

• Fan Sentiment:
  • Vinicius’ relationship with Madridistas is nuanced—he went from a “figure of fun” to being loved, but never achieved Messi or Ronaldo-like status.
  • “It’s not a case that everybody is howling at Alonso to get Vinicius back in—the jury’s still out.” – Dermot Corrigan [12:35-14:53]
• Alonso’s Approach:
  • More discipline and team structure, less catering to superstars, creating both admiration and tension.

7. Vinicius and the Brazil National Team

• Ancelotti’s Laissez-Faire Touch:
  • Vinicius thrives under coaches like Ancelotti, who offer confidence and freedom.
  • “Ancelotti has these relationships…there is a real kind of players’ lobby behind the scenes, like we want this guy.” – Jack Lang [18:21-21:22]
• Inconsistent National Stardom:
  • Despite expectations, Vinicius hasn’t made Brazil “his team.” The “star power isn’t what it was in 2002.”
  • “He hasn’t always done that, especially for Brazil…he’s kind of done it in small moments, and Brazil would love him to.” – Jack Lang [25:41-28:29]
• Room for Growth:
  • “Vinicius has the ego of the superstar…but he doesn’t have that kind of pitch confidence, the way Romario or Ronaldinho did.” – Dermot Corrigan [28:29-30:05]

8. Future Trajectory and the Threat of Disillusionment

• Possibility of Departure:
  • “Is there a worry…that we don’t fully see him flourish at Real Madrid and perhaps he ends up going to Saudi Arabia?” – Ayo Akimolere [30:05-30:45]
• Comparisons to Neymar:
  • Vinicius’ career risks echoing Neymar’s—potential unfulfilled if ego and circumstance lead to an early exit from the elite stage.
  • “He looks after himself, but yeah, I think maybe…disillusionment is there somewhere in him…The Alonso situation is troubling from that perspective.” – Jack Lang [30:45-33:43]

9. Madrid in Crisis? Or Just the Usual Soap Opera?

• Team Performance and Media Frenzy:
  • Despite leading La Liga, there is persistent internal pessimism and drama—Alonso struggles to impose his style, players are unsettled, but this is classic Real Madrid.
  • “Madrid is hilarious sometimes and everything is super magnified…Because it’s Madrid, because there’s so many egos involved.” – Dermot Corrigan [37:42-39:38]
  • “Drama circulates around and I wonder what it’s like to actually play for Real Madrid and the pressure to constantly win…” – Ayo Akimolere [39:38]
  • “They know it’s a crazy club and they love it—and I gotta respect that.” – Jack Lang [39:48-40:14]

10. Club Ownership Changes Looming

• Florentino’s Big Move:
  • Plans are afoot for Real Madrid to bring in external investment—a first for the club. If approved, this could transform the Socio model and injection of massive funds.
  • “Trying to find a legal way to allow big financial institutions…to take a stake in the club…a huge move, and Florentino is managing it really well.” – Dermot Corrigan [40:31-42:25]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Alonso’s approach:
  “Both parties feel that they are right. Alonso fully convinced he’s doing the best for the team…Vinicius feels he should be treated like Mbappé, meaning he should always be a starter.” – Mario Cortegana [05:05]

• Perez’s Realpolitik:
  “At Madrid, what really matters is winning games…whether players are unhappy or not, the president doesn’t really care as long as the team is doing well.” – Dermot Corrigan [07:32]

• On Vinicius’ superstar status:
  “He never had that kind of superstar status of a Messi or a Ronaldo…he was in position to win the Ballon d’Or because there wasn’t another really big, huge attacker in the team.” – Dermot Corrigan [12:35]

• Echoes of Neymar:
  “Parallels here to Neymar…waiting for his chance…when the baton was due to be passed, it was not there for him because Messi kept signing on.” – Jack Lang [10:30]

• Status in Brazil:
  “He has the ego of the superstar…but he doesn’t have that kind of confidence maybe on the pitch sometimes, he’s not a guy who grabs hold of a game.” – Dermot Corrigan [28:29]

• On the Real Madrid goldfish bowl:
  “It looks stressful enough covering them as journalists, I don’t know how Mario does it. I’m surprised they ever have a full night’s sleep.” – Jack Lang [39:48]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:14 | Mario Cortegana outlines origins of Vinicius–Alonso rift | | 03:21 | Vinicius meets Perez, contract update | | 05:05 | Relationship breakdown, sides taking positions | | 06:44 | Florentino Perez’s stance and club hierarchy | | 10:30 | Comparing Vinicius–Mbappé with Neymar–Messi dynamic | | 12:35 | Vinicius and fans, superstar status | | 18:21 | Vinicius with Brazil, Ancelotti’s management | | 25:41 | Vinicius among Brazil’s historic greats | | 28:29 | Superstar mentality vs. on-pitch dominance | | 30:45 | Possible exit, parallels with Neymar | | 37:42 | Drama at Madrid, Alonso’s teething issues | | 40:31 | Perez and plan to change club ownership |

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Conclusion

The Vinicius–Alonso standoff encapsulates the perpetual drama at Real Madrid—a club where egos, results, and shifting priorities create constant intrigue. As Vinicius faces uncertainty, both in his role under Alonso and his future status, the episode asks whether he can evolve from a star among stars to a true team-carrying talisman. For now, with Mbappé ascendant, contract talks frozen, and internal divisions unresolved, the saga continues—at Madrid and in Brazil.

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Transcript

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[Ayo Akimolere]

The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Despite a solid start to the season, there is more drama at Real Madrid. Vinicius Jr. Has told the club he doesn't want to renew his contract while his relationship with head coach Xabi Alonso remains strained. So who's winning this battle? All right, with us today, we've got our Real Madrid correspondent, Mario Cortegana. We've got Dermot Corrigan. We've also got Jack Lang with us as well. All right, Mario, take us back a little bit to the beginning when the friction between Vinicius and Alonso actually started.

[Mario Cortegana]

Yeah, we should go back really. At the Club World cup almost at the beginning of the Alonso era because the coach had planned to bench Benitius in the Club World cup semifinal against Paris Saint Germain. Trent Alexander Arnold's injury prevented that, but Benitius was our about his coach plan. So the, the start wasn't the best for them. And then you, you just have to take a Look to the statistics. He has been benched four times, something that. It's really unusual, not just for Benito, but for any start in the world of football. And he has just finished 5 or out of 17 games played for Real Madrid this season. So this is the. The current situation, which is far from ideal.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I mean, he was also benched for the Elche game that Real Madrid drew 2. 2 as well. But talk to us about his current contract situation. What is the latest with that?

[Mario Cortegana]

The latest is that meeting with President Florentino Perez we revealed before, earlier this week, there was this crazy situation in El Clasico.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

You might be able to tell there.

[Jack Lang]

That Vinicius is being replace.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Not happy with the decision, demonstrating with the bench.

[Ayo Akimolere]

His team are winning, the manager's doing it for the right reasons.

[Mario Cortegana]

After that, Benitius went to see and to meet Florentino Pere to apologize and to talk to the president. And in this meeting they talk about the. The renewal. The. The situation is stalled. There is no progress since. Since some time. Benitius told the president that he was feeling like extending under the current scenario wouldn't be the best for him at this point. So as long as the relationship, this lack of feeling with his coach remains like this, it would be difficult for him to accept. Beyond that, there is a big gap in terms of money as well.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Can I ask you a question? Because. I'm only asking this because Vinicius has been such an important player for Real Madrid, a player that, let's not forget, not too long ago was one of the top players to potentially win the Ballon d'. Or. What a phenomenal season that was for him.

[Mario Cortegana]

One year.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, one year ago. Exactly. I mean, can this relationship be repaired? Because you'd like to think if they can get the best out of this star, this player, you know, Madrid could actually end up doing great things this season.

[Mario Cortegana]

It's difficult because both parties feel that they are right. I mean, Alonso are fully convinced that he's doing the best for the team. So if he thinks that Vinicius could work better for the team from the bench, as happened as he thought for the Elche game last weekend, he did that and he will keep doing that. And Benitius feels that he's. And he has been in the last years, one of the main football players in Europe, in the world. So he thinks, and he feels that he should be treated like, for example, Mbappe, meaning he. He should be always a starter. It's difficult for. To convince Benitius that he has to happily Accept that he could be benched or to convince Alonso that he shouldn't bench Benitius. I'm not optimistic at this point about them, but let's see if maybe good results. Beni coming back to. To his real level because he has been awful in terms of football lately. Let's see if that could help.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, Mario, I know you have to go. Plenty more news. I know Real Madrid at top of La Liga at the moment, but always drama, man. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Mario Cortegana]

Thank you.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, Dermot, let's bring you in here. There's a man that's obviously overlooking this, and it's President Florentino Perez. What is he saying about the situation? Because Vini, you know, for Madrid anyway, I mean, it's been so important for that team over the last few years.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, super interesting Mario's piece, especially the parts. Well, lots of it, but the parts where it says how Florentino feels really close to Vinicius, backs. Vinicius wants Vinicius to feel that he's on his side. And I'm sure that is what Frontiers wants Vinicius to think. But at Real Madrid, there is only one person in control of the situations, and it is Florentino Perez. And I'm not sure that Florentino is quite as understanding of Vinicius as maybe Vinicius would like him to be and of the situation. Vinicius has been really good for Real Madrid in the past, but over the last 12 months, maybe since he didn't win the Ballon d', Or, Vinicius's goals and assists have not been at the same standard as they were before. He just has six goals in in 23 games this season. And Kylian Mbappe is now the main man up front for Real Madrid. He has scored 20 goals in 19 games so far this season. He's clearly Alonso's main guy in attack, and the rest of the pieces of the attack kind of fit around him. Alonso's very clear tactically about how he wants to play, and Vinicius has to kind of fit within that system, as Mario was saying there. So it's come down to a bit of a kind of standoff. Whereas Florentino, he's not backing either side of Alonso or Vinicius in this. He's going to wait and see how things play out if Alonso continues. While Alonso, the team have gone through a bit of a struggle at the minute. They're still top of La Liga, but they lost in the Champions League at Liverpool. They've dropped points as well in La Liga recently. And there's a feeling that Alonso's tactics. It's not just Vinicius who doesn't really fit perfectly into what Alonso is trying to do. Bellingham as well has had up and down moments. Team have conceded some goals. They're not really pressing the way Alonso wants them to in games and it's kind of up in the air at the minute. So if go, if things do click for Alonso, the team start to play really well with or without Phoenici's in the team, then Florentine will go along with Alonso's ideas. If it doesn't work out for Alonso, if problems continue in the team and they end up not winning anything this season, then let's see what happens next summer. But at Madrid, what really matters is winning games, winning trophies, whether players are unhappy or not. The president doesn't really care as long as the team is doing well and especially as long as his favorites maybe are doing well in the team. And Mbappe is definitely Florentino's guy. Florentino spent so long trying to get Mbappe to come to the Bernabeu eventually managed to get it. He's become so kind of a fit with Florentino's Galactico's plan. Vinicius is one of the important players in the team, but I don't think he's more important than Mbappe or the Bellingham or other players. So Vinicius own idea of himself maybe is I'm, you know, type of guy who could be winning the Ballon d', or, who could be up there to be on the level of Messi Ronaldo, that type of player. I'm not sure that Florentino shares that. And Vinicius wage demands are at that level as well. It's in Mario's piece and you know, we've seen Vinicius sees himself as he should be the biggest earner at the club. He's not the biggest earner at the club and I don't think that's going to change. So there's a. There's a standoff or standoff is already there. Some kind of a resolution to it has to come, but it'll depend a lot on how the season goes. If Vinicius starts scoring lots of goals, his bargaining position will be a lot stronger. But if he doesn't, then it won't be.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, he also needs to play to do that. You know, that's the dichotomy here really, isn't it Jack? You know, I wonder if there's a point there in what Dermot saying. He's not the star, he's one of the stars. There's a comment in Mario's piece saying they would be wise to sell him and back the manager. This is Mbappe's team now and it does not sound like Benicius is willing to get on board with that. Dare I say it, there are some parallels here to Neymar at Barcelona. Another Brazilian player playing out wide who I guess never quite felt like he could be the main man. Is that a fair comparison?

[Jack Lang]

Yeah, certainly. Like Neymar waiting for his chance. Waiting for his chance. And when the baton was due to be passed, it was not there for him because Messi kept signing on. And there is a perhaps, yeah, parallel dynamic happening at Madrid now that obviously Vinicius is used to being a star in a team of stars to some degree. It will always be like that at the top clubs. But he was a protagonist, I think, especially when Mbappe struggled in his early days at Madrid. I think that was. That was probably a position of real comfort. Vinicius, I've been here a bit longer. I'm already in my flow. This guy's come in and perhaps isn't outshining me to the degree that everyone thought he would. It's an interesting one because there's also. We'll come on to the national team, I'm sure in greater detail, but there is a little bit of this in the national team as well, in that people have been waiting for the Brazil national team to become Vinicius team, and it hasn't quite happened so far. I mean, there's been so much overlap again with Neymar. Like Neymar is pretty much out of the picture now. But until maybe a year ago, even when Neymar was always injured and playing in Saudi Arabia, there was still this sense that he was the overriding character in this team. And Vinicius has flickered for Brazil. His goal record isn't. Isn't great. I think it's 8 in 45, kind of. He's never really consistently produced for Brazil the performances that he. He has done for Madrid in previous years. So it's an interesting situation. What I will say is that I think the situation as it is at club level could massively set a fire under him for his national team. So I think this whole situation, I don't think Brazil, I don't think Carlo Ancelotti will be too disappointed in it, because if Vinicius is feeling that he has a point to prove, I Think that's often quite a good thing ahead of a big tournament.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. What did Madristas feel about this, Dermot? Because this is a player that has brought that fan base a lot of joy over the years.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Vinicius had a. He's had a strange kind of rollercoaster relationship with Madrid's fans. When he came into the team first, he was kind of seen as a little bit of a figure of fun. He didn't settle in very well at the start, missed some. Some chances. Was always a guy who. Or started off. He was always a guy who had clearly, you know, very fast, really good tricks, but he didn't have that much end product. Then when Ancelotti came in as coach, Ancelotti did really well about building his confidence, helping him to become a better finisher, putting him into the positions on the pitch which suited his game. That made him look really good. And then Vinicius was well loved by the Madrid fans, but he never had that kind of superstar status of a Messi or a Ronaldo. He was a guy who scored a winning goal in a Champions League final, which is great. He was kind of the guy who was in position to win the Ballon d' or because there wasn't another really big, huge attacker in the team. Benzema had already won it. Benzema then moved on to Saudi Arabia. There was a feeling that Vinicius was kind of next in line, but he was never the overwhelming big star in the team on Alonso's side. There was a lot of goodwill around Alonso when he came in last summer. He's a former player, won the Champions League, really respected guy around Madrid. And there was a feeling that after Ancelotti. Ancelotti was maybe a little bit too easy going on the superstars, on Vinicius, on Bellingham, Other guys were in the team. And when Alonso came in, the idea of. And this came right from the top of the club as well, that, you know, we're going to put in a bit more discipline, we're going to be tougher on them. We're going to ask more of the stars, make them be more. Less individual and play more into a team ethic that has had ups and downs under Alonso. They got hammered in against Atletico Madrid in the derby, which wasn't good, but then they beat Barca in the Clasico, which was good. So I'd say generally the fans are more or less on Alonso's side, still waiting to see what happens over the rest of the season. But it's not a case that everybody is howling at Alonso to get Vinicius back into the team. It's not even a case that he's not in the team that much. You know, he's rested for a few games, he's rotated for a few games, but when the biggest games come around, he has started them. So there's a bit of a because it's Madrid, it's a goldfish bowl. Everything is just such a big drama and crisis. It's so entertaining, you know, to be around it and to follow it, but the fans just want the team to win games, as I said, you know, many times before. And the jury's still out on Alonso, so we'll have to see.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

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[Jack Lang]

He seems to be pretty much at ease in the Brazil setup at the moment. There is a sense that Ancelotti, through having a more laissez faire approach, does suit this Brazil team. Like, they've got a lot of players who need a little bit of leeway, whether that's tactical or, you know, in terms of interpersonal relationships. Ancelotti knows a lot of them well, not just Vinicius, but obviously Rodrigo Casimiro Militan, the defender. He has these relationships and before Ancelotti came there was a real kind of a player's lobby really behind the scenes, like we want this guy. We think this guy is good for us. So there is definitely a feeling of goodwill through the squad and I Think that applies to Vinicius too. Ancelotti has started to tweak Brazil's tactics a bit and in a way that I think is interesting for Vinicius. So previously Vinicius always played on the left for Brazil and increasingly, as the best players are, he would be double marked and he would often. You know, I've watched Brazil countless times the last three, four years. I was at the Copa America two summers ago in the States and watching Vinicius, there was a very frustrating experience for probably for him as well, because he was just waiting. He was waiting for the ball out on the touch line and when he got it, there were two, three guys there and occasionally he broke through, but a lot of the time he was unable to. He didn't also have the kind of passing triangles that he may have had at club level. Brazil have been a bit of a. Well, not even a bit, a lot of a dumpster fire for the, for the last years. So it's. That makes things complicated. But I remember a game in that Copa America against Costa Rica. Brazil really needed a goal and the manager at the time, Doraval Jr. Took Vinicius off with 20 minutes left. And the camera in the stadium cut to Neymar, who was injured but watching from the stands. And he made a very kind of public. I mean, I'm sure he knew it was on the screen. He was like, vinicius, what? And this was this kind of kicked up a little debate in Brazil about, you know, obviously you need a goal, you kind of want to keep Vinicius on. But there was also that feeling, as I mentioned earlier, that this. He hadn't really made the team his own. The next game he scored twice against Paraguay, which was his real, probably his best performance for Brazil. But since then, again, form comes, form goes. With Ancelotti. Ancelotti has tried to get him, I think, in more central areas. So he's. The last four or five games, Vinicius has kind of been the central striker with, with license to roam. So Ancelotti has played a. A more disciplined player towards the left of the attack. So it was. It was Rodrigo against Senegal, previous games, Martinelli has been used there, someone who can stretch the game but also has the tactical discipline to come back and just basically allow Vinicius just to stay up. And that has, that has worked in, in spurts like. Vinicius has scored important goals in qualifying. I think he scored the winning goal against Colombia.

[Dermot Corrigan]

He.

[Jack Lang]

He was good against Senegal. I was at the standing for that one. I thought he Looked very dangerous, could maybe have had a little bit more end product, but seemed to enjoy the freedom of that role. So I think if that continues, I'm not sure whether Brazil will do that against better teams. But that system of having a left winger, having a right winger, which is increasing, looking like Stevan and like Matthias Cunha, is the kind of guy that allows Vinicius to do this because he is a number 10 who drops into midfield and Vinicius has essentially no defensive responsibilities at all. And I think, you know, if you're an attacking player and your manager says, you know what, don't worry about coming back, that is likely to make you happy. So the early signs under Ancelotti are pretty positive, but I mean with Brazil, Peril is only ever 45 minutes of bad football away.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, it's been quite a while since we've seen the free flowing, fully attack in Brazil of old. Derma, is there a sense here that perhaps this is a player, I mean, much like many other players in football that need some love? I mean, it's easy to look at a player who is super talented and has a great voice when it comes to social activism and things like that, but this is still a young man. This is still a young man with a lot of pressure on his shoulders. Perhaps. Do the coaches need to give him a bit more love?

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, Ancelotti definitely made that a priority when he came in as as Madrid coach or pretty soon after he came in as Madrid coach because Vinicius had suffered under Z. Zidane as well. Because Zidane's quite similar to Alonso in that he's quite I'm the boss and you have to do what I say. And Zidane just didn't seem to respect Vinicius or put him on the level of the top players in the team. And Vinicius suffered under that. His confidence wasn't great. He was missing chances in games, he was looking unhappy, similar enough to what's happening under Alonso so far. But when Ancelotti came in, he had his arm around his shoulder. He talked to him a Lotti, worked with him on the training ground one to one. Not super important tactical stuff maybe, but just around building his confidence around, as I said before, putting him into positions where he could show his quality and even setting up the team to an extent to suit Vinicius. Because after Benzema left, Madrid especially became quite a counter attacking team that they would sit deep. Vinicius would look to get Vinicius over the top against defenses. Toni Cruz was there who was brilliant at pinging those 50, 60 yard balls in behind the defense for Vinicius to run onto. And that really suited him. And that's when Vinicius got this kind of the ego that he has got the feeling of himself that he is a kind of superstar player, that he should be in the running for the Ballon d'. Or. And that was Ancelotti. Without Ancelotti, maybe that wouldn't have happened or it would have been a different coach might have been able to do it in a different way. But Ancelotti definitely made Vinicius into the player that he is. So as Jack was saying there, there was a lot of players, and Vinicius among them, who were really happy for Ancelotti to take over as the Brazil coach. And I'm sure that Ancelotti will have an environment there in which Vinicius is comfortable. Maybe has seen that this isn't a golden generation maybe of Brazilian attacking stars. They don't have the huge names who are established at the biggest clubs. So Ancelotti has decided, you know, I'm going to have to use Vinicius and I'm going to have to find a way to get the best out of him and sense, like as Jack is saying there, maybe playing him centrally, setting the team up in order to get the best out of me. Whereas at Madrid, that's not happening. It's. It's set up in the way that Alonso wants. Mbappe has his role, which is as the main guy in the attack. Vinicius has his role, or whoever plays on the left wing has it has a role that they have to, to get back, to be tactically disciplined as well. And Vinicius rebels against that. He was taken off in the Classico recently, I think, because Alonso was worried that Kounde from Bar said right back was coming into the game. Barca had Yamal up front. Whoever was playing on the left wing needed to be somebody who would come back and help out. Madrid were winning in the game. We're kind of holding on to it, to a 21 lead. Alonso made a ruthless decision, not thinking about Vinicius ego, thinking about what was best for the team. But Vinicius didn't, didn't think or didn't agree with it.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I want to know Jack, then, from a Brazil perspective, where he sits in the pantheon of greats that have donned Those attacking positions, R9 comes to mind. Romario comes to mind. I mean, the list goes on really. Is he at legendary status yet or is he still finding his feet amongst Brazilian fans.

[Jack Lang]

I wouldn't put him near those guys at this stage, to be honest. I really like him as a player. I think he's the kind of player who gets you off your seat. He's incredible in certain scenarios, like when there is space, he will tear you apart. He isn't, you know, I don't want to. I want to make that clear, that I think he's a fantastic player.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right.

[Mario Cortegana]

Caveat.

[Jack Lang]

Yeah, but, like, you know, like, you're talking about some of the greatest players in football history, and I don't see Vinicius in that way. Firstly, consistency wise, like, he's. He's always been a player who kind of play in spurts, which is fine, but, you know, the very elite players will do it week in, week out. Compare him to someone like Ronaldinho. Like, Ronaldinho was influencing matches constantly, albeit for a short period. You know, I think his peak was maybe three, four seasons. But he combined the kind of the electricity that Vinicius has, but with also kind of a. A technical mastery that I don't think Vinicius quite has. I think I would actually say the same about Neymar. I think if you. Vinicius can do things Neymar can't do. He's quicker. He's. You know, he'll get in behind better. He's incredibly dangerous on the counter. But as someone with the ball at their feet, I think Neymar is levels above Vinicius. And I think Brazil, it's about quality and it's about personality. Like, Vinnies, just on a personality level, has a lot of what Brazil looks for. Like, he is. He has got the ego. That's seen as a good thing. I think it's a great thing. I love a player who backs themselves, but at the same time, you need to be. You need to make sure that your. What you're producing on the pitch is commensurate with that. He hasn't always done that, especially for Brazil. So there's a feeling, you know, there's a great feeling of goodwill towards him. I think he's seen as someone who can. If he does it consistently in the yellow jersey, he can make the seam his own. This can be his era. He's still young. He's, you know, mid-20s. There's a lot of road ahead of him. But has he stamped his authority on the team so far? Not incredibly, no. He's kind of done it in small moments, and Brazil would love him to. I mean, let me make that clear. This is A team like begging out for someone to be the guy. There's, as you said, like the star power isn't what it was in 2002. Nowhere near when you had like four or five of the world's top 10 players. Brazil, now they need someone to kind of inspire them. And it's, you know, this is why I think this World cup is such an opportunity for him, is that if he. If he lights it up, if he kind of takes Brazil with him, the whole. The whole country is begging for him to do it, essentially. And, you know, if he makes a World cup his own, perhaps we can then start to talk about him on the level of those other guys you mentioned. But for now, I think he work to do.

[Dermot Corrigan]

That's super interesting because it fits with something that I think as well from just watching him, that Vinicius has the ego of the superstar and especially off the pitch. He has the lifestyle and he has the. The sponsorships and he has mates with Jay Z and he, you know, Ballon d', or, all this type of stuff, but he doesn't have that kind of confidence. Maybe on the pitch sometimes he's not a guy who grabs hold of a game the way that, you know, Romario would have or Ronaldo or Ronaldinho that says, look, give me the ball. I'm going to sort this out. He hasn't really shown that for Madrid or for Brazil. I guess, as Jack is saying, even think of somebody like Lamina Mal for Spain in the Euros lot or in 2024 when they were struggling, that it was Lamine who got the ball against France and stuck it in the top corner from way out and pulled Spain into a game. Vinicius is a guy who maybe needs other players to put him into positions, needs the coach to set up the team for him where he's not just that real superstar level, you know. And we're talking about, you know, the real, real elite here, Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Romario, but those guys who could kind of just dominate a game completely by themselves. And that's what Vinicius would like to be. And maybe what he. He kind of feels he should be or the people around him feel that he should be, but he hasn't quite achieved that status yet. And Florentino knows that. Xabi Alonso knows that. Ancelotti knows that as well. And maybe, maybe next year's World cup is a moment when he can do that, that if he's feeling a little bit disrespected, that he suddenly can step up and say, Look, I will. I am the guy. Give me the ball. I'm going to score an amazing goal. I'm going to score a free kick, I'm going to score a hat trick in a huge game, as Mbappe has done in World Cups as well. But so far he just hasn't done it yet.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I wonder if it's compounded also by the fact, especially at Madrid, that there is a player who came in, Kylian Mbappe, who does do that, who drags the team by the scuff of the neck and actually can execute in the same way very quickly. Jack, I'm just thinking as we're talking right now, that is there a worry, maybe not for country, but for club football, that we potentially see a player based on all this drama that actually, dare I say it, he's so disillusioned with that system, we don't fully see him flourish at Real Madrid. You don't see him fully flourish at that stage of European football that perhaps he ends up going to Saudi Arabia and then that's it for Vini.

[Jack Lang]

I mean, there are plenty of examples, aren't there, of players who burn really brightly. And that's what I was thinking, perhaps don't go as deep in their career as we. As we think. I mean, apologies for repeatedly coming back to him, but like, the Neymar example is right there, isn't it? Because this was someone who, whose career to some degree was led by his own sense of his self worth. Neymar is an example of one of those players who I think self worth was justified. I think Neymar was, probably isn't anymore. But I still cling on to some, the odd clip, but was a player who, who was justified in that belief, but undoubtedly let his ego lead him from Barcelona to Paris. Whether you see that as like a complete negative, as most people did, I thought there was a degree of bravery to it as well. Now, in hindsight, it doesn't look like the right decision. And then obviously to Saudi Arabia and back in Brazil now, walking around the pitch moaning at his colleagues in general, seen as laughing stock would be a very harsh way of putting it. But like he, his kind of, his reputation has faded incredibly quickly since he's gone back to Brazil. Vinicius, I think, in terms of, like, he looks incredibly fit. He looks, he looks after himself. Well, I don't see him as someone who will kind of succumb to temptation necessarily. But, yeah, I think maybe the feeling of, I don't know. Yeah, disillusionment, I think Is there somewhere in him? A lot of that is of course justified because of the racism stuff, like, you know, that that would be enough to put anyone off playing football at the highest level in, in Spain or wherever that occurred. And I think you definitely have to factor the energy that saps both the abuse itself and the extent to which he has been willing to speak out about it and, you know, actually make an issue of it, which I think is to his enormous credit. But that does SAP energy, doesn't it? And it, it takes away from your, your focus perhaps sometimes. Do I expect to see him in a top European league at like, yeah, 31, 32. It's a great question. I, I, I, I hope so, because I think he, I think he has developing to do. I think, I think he can, he's not at the peak of his powers for me. I think if he can add nuances to his game, I think he can become a better player than he is now. And I hope he sees that. I think, yeah, this Alonso situation is troubling from, from that perspective. And, you know, it's tough to watch when, look, the first sign of, you know, a battle for his position or having to prove himself. His reaction is maybe not what we would hope for in terms of kind of seeing as a challenge rather than a slight on his ability, but we'll see how we go. You know, players have surprised us before.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Jack, I have to talk about. Esteval scored a wonder goal for Chelsea against Barcelona last night.

[Dermot Corrigan]

This is Estebao.

[Jack Lang]

Indulging in some trickery and then showing what all the fuss is about. That brings the house touchdown.

[Ayo Akimolere]

How excited are Brazilians over this new wonderkid?

[Jack Lang]

Yeah, a real sense of excitement. So obviously scoring for Chelsea, a big Champions League goal. This will kind of take it to the next level against a massive team. He's been great for the national team the last few games, like, has really, in the space of two, three games, has completely ended the debate on who play on that side of the pitch. Like, he's made the position his own very quickly and not just with, you know, tiny moments of brilliance, but he's just, I think he's a very responsible player. I think he's, you know, something you can't say about every young winger from Brazil or anywhere is, I think he's very smart. He makes good decisions. He's not someone who's kind of has you tearing your hair out every 10 minutes between moments of brilliance. Like, he's, he's very consistent and yeah, just the speed of thought like he doesn't look physically imposing to me that, you know, when I first saw him run out, running out for Chelsea, I thought you thought, well, this guy looks like it's gonna blow away in a strong wind. But the mental side is so far ahead of so many kids that age. I think, I think, you know, Lamina Mal is probably apart from last night is still, still ahead. But there's definitely a massive sense of excitement that this could be that they've unearthed one essentially. And yeah, we're kind of hopefully going to see a lot of that in the next few years.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, back to Madrid to end things, let's talk about the drama and the tension as we started off at the top of the show. Our colleague Guillermo Rai has written about this on the Athletic and he's spoken to sources to talk about pessimism and also Someone said the team is a disaster. Derma, I mean, they're sitting, sitting at the top of La Liga. They're doing all right in the Champions League. Is it that bad?

[Dermot Corrigan]

Madrid is hilarious sometimes and everything is, is super magnified. They haven't been playing well. And there is. Alonso is having some problems trying to implement the system that he wants to play. He's come in to try to replicate more or less what he, what he did at Leverkusen. The type of front foot football, really intense, lots of pressing, lots of organization. And some of the players haven't fit in well within that system. Vinicius we've talked about, but others as well, Fede, Valverde, Rodrigo, even Bellingham, you know, there was still not quite sure exactly how he fits within it. And because it's Madrid, because it's the Goldfish bowl that it is, people around the players talk. The guys, Ghia, Mario have really good sources as well. So there is that feeling. Disaster is maybe a little bit strong, but there is a feeling that it's not going great. They weren't great at Elche at the weekend, they weren't great at Liverpool when they got beaten, but they're still top of the table. Still a long way to go. And it's not uncommon at Madrid for the autumn time to be a little bit shaky, some dodgy results. And it all really depends on how things click or whether they click and how it comes together around March, April, next year. So yeah, surreal situation to an extent because they are top of the league and people are talking about how bad it is. Team haven't been playing that well, but there's lots of time to turn it around. And Alonso himself keeps saying that this is a process, that it's going to take time, that he was hired and brought in to try and change things. As I said before, under Ancelotti, things had gone a bit stale the way the team were playing. People were a bit upset that they were playing this counter attacking football, especially in the bigger games. They want Madrid to dominate games. They want them to be modern, front foot forward, new progressive coach. All that thing sounds really good on paper. Then when you go into the dressing room and try and get the players to play that way is more difficult because it's Madrid because there's so many egos involved. But yeah, I'm sure there'll be another story in another few weeks about different players who are unhappy about things are going. That kind of comes with the territory at Madrid. Lonzo is aware of it and we're Just gonna have to see how it works out.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. I mean, Jack, this is just a team that drama circulates around and I wonder what it's like to actually play for Real Madrid and the pressure that's on your shoulders just to constantly win every season.

[Jack Lang]

It looks stressful enough covering them. As a journalist, I don't know how Mario do it. Like, I'm surprised they ever have a full night's sleep. But yeah, it's a. It's a crazy club. And the thing I like about Madrid is that they know it's a crazy club. Like you could easily envision. Like a club that is in these stupid dramas, but is kind of quite self serious. Madrid, they know it's nonsense and they love it. And I. I gotta respect that.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, before we wrap up, quick one, derma, tell us about Florentino Perez's plans to change the club's ownership model. I read this actually, and it's quite interesting. In terms of bringing investment from external entities into the club, this would be the first time in its history.

[Dermot Corrigan]

Yeah, it's huge, really. It's a massive thing around Madrid. It's been floated for a while. Florentino, 12 months ago, at the annual referendum of the Socios, he said that they were going to plan a referendum for the future to bring in an investor into the club. It's still not clear exactly how they'll do it, but. But more and more details are coming out and talking to a good few people around the club, people in the industry as well. And the idea is that they try to protect as much as possible the Socio model that they have, that they're so proud of, that them and Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao and Asasuna have in Spain, which is really different. They're not a private company, they are owned by the members. But they're trying to find a legal way to do that and to allow big financial institutions or maybe even wealthy individuals to take a stake in the club, to take maybe 5% of the club, maybe 10% of the club. And that would involve a new, different type of a model in which the Socios would become owners of the club. They would have a share which would have a financial worth, but they would still be able to vote for the president. In theory, they would still be able to control all the important decisions which are made at the club. But this financial investor would come in which would pay maybe a billion euros, something like that, which the club would be able to use in order to pay off some of the stadium debts and maybe sign some new players as well, and that Socio would then, or that financial Socio would then be able to get a return on their investment so they would get paid out of the revenues of the club as well. It's a huge move and Florentino has kind of brought it in quietly. He doesn't want to have too much distrust against it, are too many voices raised against it, and he's pretty good at controlling the conversation. So it looks like it's going to go ahead, but they still have to follow the process laid out in the club statute. So there'll be another assembly in the coming months at which they will set up, give more details about what's going to happen and then it will be put to a referendum of Madrid Socios. But it's a big deal and Florentino is managing it really well, I think.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, gents, let's leave it there. Jack, appreciate your time, Derma, and also Mario, who joined us earlier. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic media company production.

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