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- [00:00]
Narrator 1
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- [01:15]
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- [02:37]
Narrator 4
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:43]
Narrator 5
Chelsea are the new Club World cup champions.
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Narrator 4
Everything Chelsea have touched today has turned to gold.
- [02:54]
Narrator 6
Chelsea, the FIFA Club World cup champions.
- [02:59]
Narrator 5
Jann Infantino says the competition has marked a new era for club football. But has the Club World cup really been a success with us today? Adam Crafton, who is in New York and also who was at the Club World cup final for us and also Phil Hay, lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter. Now, ahead of the final, speaking with broadcasters dizone, FIFA president Gianni Infantino was full of praise for the tournament he created.
- [03:29]
Narrator 4
The Club World cup has been an incredible success, as I say, maybe, or.
- [03:35]
Narrator 1
Probably certainly a new era.
- [03:38]
Narrator 4
The golden era of global club football has started.
- [03:41]
Narrator 5
Well, that was Infantino also describing the tournament as a huge, huge, huge success at Trump Tower at a press conference. You were there ahead of the Final Four, Adam. I mean, what do you make of all that?
- [03:54]
Narrator 4
Well, the press conference was in case anyone missed it, FIFA have opened a new office in New York and that that is in Trump Tower, kind of just by Central Park. So this press conference was held in Trump Tower, held in the lobby, which made for pretty bizarre experience because there's a little coffee shop on the floor above. So every time someone was making a coffee, it would kind of drown out whatever Gianni Infantino was attempting to say, which some might say is a blessing at certain moments. But it's interesting because Infantino these days, he doesn' really do press conferences. You know, he didn't do one at the last two FIFA Congresses. It means he's never really been asked about the decision to award 2030 World cup to about 15 different countries and the 2034 World cup to Saudi Arabia. And we were told only questions about the Club World cup would be accepted during this event. And it wasn't really a press conference because what you had was Infantino stood on a stage and then behind him he had this kind of catalog of FIFA legends. So you had Brazilian Ronaldo, Roberto Baggio, Alessandro del Piero, Christo Stoichkov, Esteban Cambiasso. There's another one who I've forgotten. I've forgotten Kaka was there. That's because he didn't say very much. So Kaka was there and they lined up behind him and Then, as with all sorts of Infantino press engagements, there's not that many opportunities for the press. It tends to become a speech rather than a press conference. So the first 15 minutes or so was basically him just talking and saying how fantastic it's been and how nobody said that the games would go ahead and they went ahead. No one said they'd get a broadcaster and they got a once in a lifetime broadcast deal. No one said they'd sell tickets and all the stadiums are full. Not quite true, but. So there was a lot of this stuff going on. And then when the questions started, and I think over a 45 or 50 minute event, they took about seven or eight questions. And every time Infantino made a point, he would then turn to one of his FIFA legends to back up his point.
- [06:00]
Narrator 5
Well, they're being paid to be there. I'm just, I'm just curious because can they be?
- [06:04]
Narrator 4
Honestly, I was watching it thinking they must be. FIFA insists they aren't paid as an income, but they are there for pretty much the full tournament on FIFA dime, in five star hotels, in boxes, et cetera. But you wouldn't think players of that level and heritage would love a hotel room and some tickets and some hospitality that much that they would go to those lengths. But maybe, maybe they do. Or maybe there's also. I think it's possible there is a kind of tiered system of ambassadors because they have so many, they have thousands across the world. So I do wonder whether there's some sort of tiered system that has different incentives based on the levels of engagement.
- [06:46]
Narrator 5
Well, Phil, let's talk about the football, because it is still a football tournament despite all the noise around it. What have you made of the tournament?
- [06:53]
Narrator 6
I think Infantino is going to describe it as a huge, huge success, no matter what happened. He'd have said that if half the teams hadn't turned off. Sorry.
- [07:01]
Narrator 4
He actually described it as a huge, huge, huge success. That's the quote.
- [07:05]
Narrator 6
Oh, no, fair enough. Just to. Just to prove my point. Yeah. I genuinely think there'd be less cynicism about the tournament if FIFA didn't keep trying to tell you that it's the greatest invention in the history of the sport, you know, But I do often feel like Infantino is trying to convince himself rather than many of the people listening. I would imagine that those really close to him do take on the guise of nodding dogs and, you know, with them he's preaching to the converted, but with the rest of us, he must know that there's a certain amount of eye rolling. I mean, there is part of me that does actually really like the concept of clubs from all over the world playing each other when ordinarily they wouldn't. You know, like Boca Juniors versus Bayern Munich or, you know, that sort of club playing you'd European side like psg. Real Madrid is actually a sort of fixture that I'm. I'm quite here for, but I just can't be doing with the manufactured hype, which is what we saw an awful lot of in the States and which I assume we're going to see a lot of leading up to the World cup in 2026 as well. The final last night. It has to be said that both teams seem to care about it and I think that's probably because players just aren't programmed to enjoy losing games. And I think with the tournament like this, once you get beyond the question of are we as a club going to bother with it and take it seriously, it's probably not that difficult to get players to. To buy into it. I mean, it's a trophy and in the grand scheme, I suppose you would say it's not a wholly insignificant one. I've never really been sure exactly where it ranks and I still can't decide. But there is definitely this appeal of being seen to have the full set of medals, full set of trophies, and that's probably why PSG was so niggly last night. One good, solid, trademark performance in New Jersey and they've put together the perfect season, or about as perfect a season as a club in France are ever going to have. But I mean, as far as the players go, don't forget that the bonuses at play here as well. So there is a vested interest for them. I was reading Adam's piece this morning and it was saying in there that Chelsea put up something close to the kind of bonuses you'd expect or the payments you'd expect if you were going for the Premier League or the Champions League. And realistically, so Chelsea would, because winning that last night, in total, the tournaments worth what, more than £80 million to them? Something like that. Why wouldn't you? You go after that money, seriously. And I think that's probably where FIFA have had quite a big win with this.
- [09:19]
Narrator 5
Yeah, you think about the windfall to a certain degree. But also, Adam, let's think about the football. I mean, for Chelsea, considering this is a team that, you know, some might say are still finding out who they are, beating PSG in a final like that, I mean, that's quite epic for their Fans alone as well.
- [09:33]
Narrator 4
It is. And I think from Chelsea's point of view, the value of winning, it will not just be in the, you know, the money they get today, but also kind of the branding value of it to actually be able to go around for the next four years and tell sponsors, we are the best club in the world, whether people mean that or not. You know, if you're pitching that to a major global company that kind of knows about football, but isn't necessarily completely across the nuances between Champions League, Premier League, Club, World Cup, Conference League, all this sort of stuff, then that probably sounds pretty impressive to a chief marketing officer. So, sorry, I've gone immediately off what this means football wise, back on to why it's also good for Chelsea from a football point of view. But I think from Chelsea's football perspective, I think it just feels that sense of, you know, there's been a lot of questions about Chelsea's strategy for the last few years. I don't think this is like everything they've done is correct. You know, there's clearly been some pretty peculiar moves and decisions over the past few years, but I think the consensus now is Chelsea have a collection of really young, talented players with a coach who can clearly motivate them. I think everyone felt Joo Pedro would be a really good signing, and the early signs are that that's probably going to be the case. But there was also, you know, I thought, you know, the story of Trevor Chalaba, for example, yesterday, you know, a player who had been pushed out and loaned out, and now he's come back and got back in the team. He. I mean, him and Caldwell yesterday was superb. So there's quite a few stories in there of players who looked kind of down and out, who have fought their way back, and then other players like Caicedo and Pedro and Neto that just look like really good signings, that looks like pretty good bets when they signed and are proving to be that.
- [11:22]
Narrator 6
I would just say as well that I did really enjoy the football itself last night. And I think part of the reason that I did was because it's quite a long time since you've seen anybody come up with a really good strategy of beating PSG and especially beating them like that. And tactically it was. It was pretty engaging. And I wouldn't have said that about a huge number of the games all the way through the tournaments, but it did think if you stripped away what was going on roundabout, and that was very difficult to do, but if you did, the football itself Was, was pretty compelling because of what went on.
- [11:51]
Narrator 5
Yeah, we have to talk about Donald Trump and we have to talk about that. The halftime ceremony or just the ceremony of the final, anyway, Donald Trump, an appearance, half time. And let's not forget about the trophy ceremony at the end. Phil, I mean, what did you make of all that? I guess we're looking at football, body meets politics, that kind of very strange mix. But also, you know, when you think of what Adam's talking about in terms of, you know, Trump Towers now being the headquarters of FIFA, I mean, I don't know how that sits with me personally, but how did that sit with you?
- [12:23]
Narrator 6
Yeah, there's a lot feeding into this and the presence of Trump. And it's not just him, you know, elsewhere in the world, Infantino courts political influence and rub shoulders with people high up, you know, particularly in the Middle east, in Qatar and Saudi Arabia as well. That is a strand of what FIFA are doing. I think with this game and tournament specifically, they feel like they're chasing the super bowl commercial format, if that's fair to say. And I guess that ties into the way in which they've been chasing the American market full stop, first of all with the Club World cup and then with the World cup itself next year. I have to say, as I sat through the halftime show, I got the sense that I wasn't their target audience, if you catch my drift. The 44 year old Scottish bloke, Adam's about 15 years younger than me, so he might have had a very different perspective on it, but from my point of view, it was pretty naff and it was always going to be. And there is part of me that wonders that what an American who say is only vaguely into football or isn't into football at all, but happened to stumble across it would have been made of it. You know, would they have liked it? Would it have appealing? Or would their reaction have been, you know, what is this? What's this all about? As for the, you know, trophy presentation, I'm not the only person who's, you know, pretty uncomfortable with Infantino's proximity to Donald Trump and others. And as I say, I'm not just saying that because it is Trump. And it was sort of coming to something over the weekend when you had Sepp Blatter coming out and basically accusing FIFA of selling its soul to Saudi Arabia. You know, I think the, the geopolitical nature of all this does kind of grate on, on people. And I don't know, we had Salt Bay at the World cup in 2022, then we on, on the pitch, these people are going to be on the scene. They're going to be rounding about what's happening in the football itself. But I think supporters and spectators, they don't like to see these individuals making it all about them or being any more prominent than they should be. It does tend to. To grind their gears a little. But Infantino clearly wants Donald Trump to be front and center to some extent. And you'd think that's going to be the case next summer as well.
- [14:26]
Narrator 5
Yeah. I mean, it's all a matter of taste, isn't it, though, Adam? I mean, this is an American event ahead of the World cup as well. They can put their spin on it if that's the way you want to look at it. But did Doja Cat do it for you? Did Thames do it for you?
- [14:39]
Narrator 4
What Phil just said was interesting about the. The point about kind of the new fan and how this engages the new fan. I mean, I was there yesterday, my partner, his first ever soccer game. So as that case study, that was quite an interesting thing to sort of observe what he thought about it and different things like that. And I think on the halftime show in the stadium, it felt like an event that was made for broadcast because it was on a really raised platform and the artists were like this, specking really in the distance. Whereas normally for a halftime show, you're using the pitch. Now, I presume, whether it was because of timings or because of the concerns over the quality of the pitch, which was being watered pretty much throughout the whole of the halftime show because it was so hot again yesterday at MetLife Stadium that they were worried perhaps about damaging the pitch and then having a load of accusations about undermining the product. But the actual show itself, I thought was pretty good. People around me seemed to enjoy it. The sense was just like, we can't see see enough of it. But what you did get on broadcast was some of those incredible skyline shots because of this where. Where the platform was. So I think there's kind of some logistical questions about it. As far as I know, it cost a fortune. That won't shock you. And it also took about 25 minutes for the game to restart. It wasn't a 15 minute half time. And I think on that point, I'm not like one of those people that's like, oh, but the lords of the game says it has to be every 50. You know, it has to be 50 minutes long. But I think the teams and the players need clarity over. Look, if it's going to be 25 minutes. Not the end of the world. But you need to tell us, because with the way that sports science is now, there's probably all different things that they would want the players to be doing to avoid injuries, to be keeping warm, to be all of that sort of stuff. And I think also broadcasters will want to know their timings as well, so that they can adequately plan, you know, scheduling and all that kind of stuff. So those are a couple of kind of the things that come out of that. In terms of the Trump stuff, it was pretty. It was pretty incredible in the stadium from the sense of just watching the reaction before the game. The kind of the Jumbotron goes round and it got Trump and Infantino on screen. It must have been half a second. This was before the national anthem was played and some boos started. So as soon as the booze started, it very quickly moved on. But then it was the national anthem. And then when the United States flag came on screen, that was when really audible booing came. And bear in mind, this was a local audience, largely. You know, it's not thousands of people traveling from France and England filling the stadium. These were American people booing the American president and the flag. I'm not sure whether the screen also showed whether that booing during the national anthem, I only saw one of the screens, so maybe a different screen was showing people. So that was pretty remarkable. And then, then the anthem ended, and then a section of fans started chanting, usa, usa. So it was like there was different pockets within the stadium, clearly had different views. So at that point, you're thinking, okay, well, it kind of shows what it is, a country that is divided and split. But then at the end of the game, when Trump walked back on with Todd Bowley and Infantino and Nasral Khaleefi, the booing was there again and everyone could hear it. And when he then posed for a photo, I think with the referees, that was the loudest booing. Now, whether Chelsea fans really disagreed with a Moises Caicedo yellow card in the first half, and that was the reason for the booing? Who knows? Was it boos of adulation for Trump, perhaps? So it felt like a bit of a moment, but he just didn't seem bothered. Even as he's walking off the pitch, he's waving to people. He kind of. He has this ability to find the people in the crowd who are smiling at him and waves at them. And FIFA don't really seem to care either. I mean, the only people who seemed bothered were like Rhys James and Cole Palmer, who were looking at him clearly thinking, is this fella going to move or can we lift the trophy we've won? Is that possible? Or do we have to carry on with this?
- [18:47]
Narrator 5
Okay, let's move on because let's look at how this tournament might have affected the players.
- [18:55]
IO Akimol
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimol.
- [18:59]
Narrator 3
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- [20:23]
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- [21:26]
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- [22:03]
Narrator 5
Infantino also boasted Adam about the revenue the competition had generated. Quoting 33 million doll per match. Now, does revenue alone justify the expansion of such a competition? Because I really want to talk about player welfare right now.
- [22:18]
Narrator 4
Depends who you ask. You know, the owners of the clubs involved I think are really happy and it was really interesting. Like the couple of years before this tournament where you had the Premier League sort of criticizing this tournament and saying, you know, it shouldn't happen and all this sort of stuff. Well, the people who owned Chelsea and Manchester City definitely weren't saying that. And as far as I know, like Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle, Villa, Forest, they'd all love to be in the next edition. But would they love to be in the next edition because they love the idea of the tournament or is it just because they know they might get over $100 million in a time of whether it's cost cutting at certain clubs or PSR demands at other clubs where you're, you know, you're selling hotels and women's teams. That extra money is super useful. There is some balance I think with, you know, with that money you have to set it against, you know, the clubs that did it this summer won't be able to do the money spinning preseason tours. They can be anywhere between, you know, 15 to 30 million pounds. FIFA didn't have tax breaks, I don't think for the teams competing in the tournament. So there's going to be some pretty heavy tax implications to that as well. And then also player bonuses. One of the teams in the tournament said to me, it's cheaper for us to lose the final to Win the final because of the bonuses. There's only a 10 million difference. I think only, only a $10 million difference if you won the final or lost the final. Obviously there's kind of long term brand value in terms of does the revenue justify the tournament? I think players themselves are split. You know, you have some players who are very, very concerned about the long term demands on their bodies, the fact they never get a holiday, they never get a break, they just roll from competition to competitions, competition and the coaches as well. And they want these major, major organizations that barely seem to speak to each other, whether it's Premier League, UEFA, La Liga, FIFA, to just get in a room, redesign the calendar to make it healthier for them so that they're not putting their bodies at risk, that they have a more healthy balance between their lifestyles. The only caveat I'd say to all of this is not that many football clubs now are making profits. And one of the biggest reasons for that, which players unions do not like to recognize, is that the wages that players are paid as a proportion of club revenue is extremely high. If you add agent fees onto that as well. And it's just getting higher and higher and higher, which means the pressure on the clubs to find fresh revenue sources to unlock this growth is constant. And that's what leads them into supporting tournaments like this. And at some point there will need to be a recognition from the players that they either do have to continue to play and play and play, or they may have to start to accept that it's 300 grand a week instead of 325 grand a week. I do think there has to be a recognition from the player side over the pressures the clubs are under to drive revenues. I don't know if you think that that discussion will ever see the light of day, Phil.
- [25:22]
Narrator 6
I think it will, but I think there will be massive resistance to the idea that it has to involve less, less earning potential than they have at the moment. You might remember Bielsa saying this when he was at Leeds actually, that the calendar was too congested and that it needs to be cut. But if it's going to be cut, we all need to accept that we're going to make less money. And you know, this was a coach who, no getting away from it was, was earning 3 million pounds a year with Leeds in the Championship. That was big money for him that he was being paid, but that was his, his. But it was kind of caveated by him with the hint of, but nobody's going to do that. Are They, I mean, I think this tournament has definitely shown an appetite for the money on offer. And you know what? I think for all the hammer that the Club World cup has taken, and quite a lot of it deservedly, FIFA have been pretty savvy in the way that they've structured this financially because they've created a tournament which from a financial point of view there's no particularly good argument for boycotting or avoiding. I mean, if we got to a point further down the line where there was a serious discussion about what you're going to cut from the calendar or what you're going to get rid of to tease the pressure on players and their physical well being, then the players themselves would probably say, well, it'd be good to keep the Club World cup because actually there's a lot of money for us in that. You know, if we're in it and we're, we're competing and we're doing well and we're getting bonuses, then we benefit in a big way. And I think from an English perspective that's probably where something like the League cup comes under threat because there's just nothing like the same revenue generated by that. Not, not even close. I mean, Chelsea go home with what, like close to £100 million for four weeks worth on the basis of a Champions League they won a long time ago. And you're not telling me that other clubs in the Premier League, like Adam was saying, won't be seriously envious of that? Like this is the profit and sustainability era and I know PSR is about to change in its format, but it still will remain in some form. And a bonus injection of £80 million, whatever it is, after deductions gone, there'll be stuff to be taken off it, but it's still a massive advantage. And nobody at Chelsea will be thinking that this hasn't been worth their time. So what happens now? You know, if FIFA can produce similar or comparative prize pot for four years time, clubs across the world are going to want a piece of it. They absolutely are. And that doesn't mean they think the scheduling makes sense. It doesn't think they mean that. They think that the players bodies can really cope with another tournament. But FIFA's kind of relying on that old phrase, if you can't beat him, join them. And I think that's how it will be.
- [27:46]
Narrator 5
Yeah, I think sometimes we even focus on the big end of the scale, Adam. You know those teams like, you know, the PSGs or the Manchester City Cities or the Chelsea's, but you know, I was reading something yesterday. Auckland FC made 676% of their annual revenue from playing in this tournament. They're not one of the more glamorous teams, but that's 3.2 or 3-point-something million dollars they never had before.
- [28:08]
Narrator 4
Yeah, and actually the way that their money was distributed was, was quite interesting because I think FIFA were paying for a lot of things when clubs were here, but stuff like travel, for example, clubs had to pay themselves. So if you're only, you're only getting 3,3 million or so by the time you've flown over kind of your 70 person party back and forth and all the different flights and all that sort of stuff, then that does eat into it. And also what happened was the federation in New Zealand, because Auckland are kind of this semi professional outfit, basically said look, you guys don't have a need to receive millions in this way. So actually what happened was the federation I think have taken some of the, the, some of the money and redistributed it in a more even way amongst, you know, to grow the sport in, in their nation. Now I mean could you imagine if the English FA said to Chelsea we're going to take, you know, a proportion of, of yours and, and redistribute it to grow the game. I mean it's actually what should happen. By the way, it would be, you know, a much healthier use of, you know, growing the sport. When FIFA is saying, you know, 2 billion revenue and all of it's gone, gone back into club football. That's true, but the vast majority has been concentrated in about the seven or eight richest clubs. The teams that reached the final both will have left with over $100 million. So that's 200 million gone straight away. The losing semi finalists and quarter finalists are probably looking at 60, 70 million each. So you're talking down immediately about 600, 700 million of this has just gone to clubs that didn't need a bigger gap. The French league does not need PSG to have another 100 million. They already can't compete and there's not that many leagues in the world actually that can absorb one team getting a win for like that. It's only really the Premier League because everyone has so much money in the Premier League. But I fluminense going back to Brazil with semi final money. Four Brazilian teams being in this competition as well. You know, you look at the last four, I think the last four or five winners of the Copa Libertadores have been all Brazilian teams and they've had a few all Brazilian finals. There's a real danger, therefore, that this tournament over time actually just means that the Copa Libertadores is always. Is always going to be won by Brazilian teams. That's not good for the continent. So there's a lot of kind of distorted factors that are coming into this with the way that the money is being distributed that FIFA but don't really seem to want to appreciate or recognize. And I don't think we'll see the long term. We may not notice this until five or six years down the track, where we're like, oh, that team that was in the club World cup semi final was basically set up for the next three or four years. I do think that's going to be a problem, even if some of the intention is good.
- [30:57]
Narrator 6
What about UEFA, Adam? Because UEFA hates this tournament, right? When we think of FIFA, we always think of them as overseeing the international game, certainly in terms of actual fixtures. But this felt a little bit like pushing tanks onto the lawn of the club game. And there's obviously this mega friction at the moment between UEFA and FIFA. So do you think that they will try and put a spoke in the wheel of this over the next four years before it comes around again? Or are they pretty powerless because of the attitude of the clubs?
- [31:25]
Narrator 4
Exactly the latter point, you're right on all of that. They won't say publicly that they hate it, but the most popular club competition in the world is without doubt the UEFA Champions League. You know, I think it's the competition that most people recognize to have the most prestige. UEFA are concerned. They're concerned because, you know, on Saturday, I asked Infantino, is this definitely going to stay every four years, the club World cup, do you want it to be every two years? And he just completely dodged the question. He started talking about how beautiful New York is as a city. And they do this thing, FIFA, where they take the microphone away from you after you've asked your question, so you can't follow up. So I just shout. I just shouted, gianni, please, please tell us your idea. Your idea. I don't want to know about how beautiful. I live in New York. I know it's a pretty city. So him dodging that question, I think will send tremors at UEFA. I mean, UEFA's president, Alexander Sheffield, we reported yesterday, just hasn't come to any of this tournament. And by the way, you know, FIFA get a lot of heat. UEFA are also pretty kind of interesting characters at the moment. When I sent an email to UEFA on probably Wednesday or earlier this week, basically saying, you know, as far as we can tell, in the UEFA, president Schefferin has not attended this tournament, the Club World Cup. There's 12 European teams in the competition. At the start, you had three European semi finalists. A little bit strange, to be honest, that he wouldn't come across at all. And certainly as of yesterday morning, you know, the UEFA social media accounts hasn't even mentioned that the Club World cup was going on. At the same time, you have, like, the copper Libertadores and combo posting, you know, during games, cheering on their players. Now, fans might listen to all that and think, like, who cares? And honestly, like, they've got a point. But it's an interesting insight into where the game is and the tensions between these personalities and characters in the game. But UEFA came back to me, back to me and said, in case it slips your mind, UEFA have a Women's Euros on at the moment. And the president is dedicating, you know, his time and commitment to that. So I thought, yeah, okay, fair enough. It hadn't slipped. My fair point. Hadn't slipped my mind, but okay. I then went away and tried to find out how many Women's Euros games he'd gone to. And it turned out he'd only been to the opening game, and at that point, there'd been about 22 or 23 games. Interesting.
- [33:56]
Narrator 6
And also, these people are famously shy when it comes to traveling long distances at short notice.
- [34:01]
Narrator 4
Exactly. You know, they definitely. They don't like jumping on private planes. They don't. They don't. They don't do any of that. The Sheffrin as well, didn't even attend the Women's World cup final between England and Spain in 2023 in terms of things slipping people's minds. So these are interesting times. You know, I was at the FIFA Congress in May, and the UEFA guides walked out because Infantino had turned up late, having been in Saudi Arabia and Qatar with President Trump. And they then put out a statement accusing President Infantino of prioritizing outside political interests ahead of the interests of football. So we are at a point where I think these organizations are really locked in a kind of forever war, but it's like kids in a playground, honestly.
- [34:50]
Narrator 5
Okay, let's move on, because we'll also discuss the role of the host as well as the attendances of the tournament as well.
- [34:59]
IO Akimol
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- [37:14]
IO Akimol
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akmoler.
- [37:20]
Narrator 5
Adam throughout the tournament, even before it. You know you've written about this and I've been keeping an eye on your on your X account about ticket prices and also at the attendance levels as well. Now from the outside looking in, you'd think that all these stadiums were full of people and it was super well attended. But what have you noticed from where you've been sitting about the attendances and also how the tickets have been sold for this Club World Cup?
- [37:42]
Narrator 4
Yeah, I think the attendances went pretty much as I thought they would in the sense of There are some teams who are so big in America, like, the size of Real Madrid in America is staggering. You know, their games in the group stages, they played Salzburg, Al Hilal and Pachuca. So they've not got in there any. You know, they weren't playing a team with, like, you know, really huge local support, like Boca Juniors. They weren't playing the big European teams. They were the only team in the group stages that were consistently getting over 60,000. And that continued for them every city they went to. I think other teams, you know, found it more difficult, and other matchups found it more difficult, you know, so the famous one was Mamelodi against, Is it Osan in Orlando that got about 3,000 people in the stadium as the official attendance. I mean, those there seem to think it was even lower. But, you know, some of the Chelsea games, Chelsea against Benfica and Charlotte for the round of 16, had about 25,000. And I think the average from the group stages was about 34,000, which, when you see it on broadcast in these giant NFL venues, it looks bad, because I think at least European audiences, our kind of eyes are trained that if we see loads of empty seats, it means something's not that good. However, Palmeiras against Dal Alli. Right? Brazilian team against Egyptian team. On paper, before the tournament, how many people are looking at that and thinking it's going to get 47,000 people? I don't think they are. And they did. They got that at MetLife Stadium in New York. And I think one of the things that a lot of people didn't realize before the tournament, and FIFA themselves, by the way, is you have within the United States these incredible diasporas. So what that means is you almost have communities that will turn out in so many different areas of the country, and it meant you had these incredible attendances from areas like Philadelphia and New York for the Brazilian teams. You have, as we saw the, you know, Miami, Argentina for Barca Juniors, I felt really sorry for River Plate, who could have been one of the stories of the tournament from a fan's point of view, but they were out in Seattle, where the Argentine contingent is nowhere near as big. You saw the Tunisian fans, the Egyptian fans, and that was all people within this country. The amount of people that traveled, I mean, Infantino promised before the tournament in the White House, millions and millions of visitors. That did not happen. The people that were here were diaspora immigrant communities. And that's kind of the whole irony, right, of the cozying up at the moment to the White House, because the success of the soccer economy in the United States is still so, so tied to Hispanic communities and second generation, third generation immigrants within, within the United States.
- [40:37]
Narrator 6
That ties into the usmnt, doesn't it? The Gold cup final against Mexico. You interviewed Tyler Adams where he was saying, I said to the, you might as well get ready for this being like in a way, fixture, because we ain't going to have the majority of support in here. And that wasn't even just the case for the final. It was the same, much same for the semi final against Guatemala. So Pochettino found himself talking after that game about how do we find American fans who want to come to the games, not necessarily more who are interested. There might be plenty out there who are interested, but how do we stop home USMT fixtures in the States basically feeling like away matches.
- [41:14]
Narrator 4
Yeah, and I think FIFA thought before the tournament and this is like, you know, Infantino did, did this fireside chat, a conference in the middle of the tournament. The fireside chat is one of those chats where you don't get to ask questions. It's when someone gets to talk.
- [41:26]
Narrator 6
Was it a fire? It was an actual fire.
- [41:28]
Narrator 4
There's never a fire. A fireside chat. And he said at that point, oh, football, soccer can be the number one sport in America. And he's kind of obsessed with converting the vision of the white NFL fan into being a soccer fanatic. And the reality is, as I just said, it is these diaspora communities, they have a huge soccer support already within the United States. If you bring the right games to them and just on that whole thing of like number one sport in America, they're never going to be the number one sport in America. Right. NFL is so, so big. I think something like 96 of the 100 top broadcasts last year were NFL games, not just, you know, we're not just talking super bowl here. So there you're talking about tens and tens of millions of people. But what you should be able to say is this is a country of over 350 million people. If we take a decent chunk of that and make them really loyal and committed and repeat spenders, then that's fantastic, then that is successful. But as ever with him, it's, it's biggest, it's best, it's spectacular, it's unrivalled, it's all this, to be frank, you know, the only caveat I would say is you can't come to America and you can't approach sponsors. You know, when you're talking about this tournament and broadcasters say, oh, we've got this idea for a tournament and it might be good in like version 3 or version 4 or version 5. You do have to come and say we've got an amazing product and you need to come and watch it, particularly I think when you're marketing to America. So there is some balance there.
- [43:12]
Narrator 6
The only thing I would say in response to that though is that the broadcaster they came up with seemed to be the only show in town and paid a huge amount of money. Even though there didn't seem to be any competition for the rights particularly, it wasn't as if even painting it as the biggest show in town, barring the World cup next year, had people fighting each other to, to get the broadcast rates at all.
- [43:33]
Narrator 4
Yeah, I mean, certainly a lot of the American broadcasters that it was pitched to just didn't get it. Yeah, okay. 2.1 billion revenue. I think for a startup tournament, that is pretty good, right? Like, let's be fair here, that is pretty good revenue. The prize money is pretty much what the clubs were promised when Infantino was setting out. But how sustainable is it, you know, in the sense of if there isn't a Dazn, that the market conditions were so right for this tournament at that time. And we know that Dazn had this one billion dollar cash injection from the Saudis. The Saudis had just got the World Cup. Did this again, like next time around. Does any, does global broadcast deals amount to a billion dollars next time around? Where do they find that money from? Will they have sponsorship from Qatar Airways and Saudi? Is that just forever now that they sponsor these, these tournaments? If that's the case, then fine. You know, people can have whatever moral view they want on it, but the show will go on because the money will be there. I think what's going to be interesting is where they place the tournament. Because what FIFA ended up doing was, was kind of bouncing a lot of potential 2026 World Cup cup sponsors into also sponsoring 2025. And you know, the United States, Mexico, Canada, World cup is such a big one in terms of the numbers involved that, that, that's the way they, they chose to do that. Does that work quite the same way if it's Spain hosting in 2029 ahead of a 2030 World cup in Spain, Portugal, Morocco, maybe because it's the World cup, but it's probably not quite the same numbers as an America one.
- [45:17]
Narrator 5
Let's end on this, Phil, real talk. I mean, the weather's definitely played its part in this, but what do you think? I mean, Adam's probably laid it out quite nicely actually. But what do you think FIFA's learnings will be from this tournament? Because obviously the World cup is imminent.
- [45:28]
Narrator 6
I'm not sure they've necessarily learned anything about the weather, have they? I mean, like parts of the US it gets very, very hot in the summer and has done forever. It's not a revelation. And there isn't anything that FIFA can do about the climate specifically. It is caught in a bit of a quandary with this because it's going to be a summer World cup that's set in stone now and far too late to make any changes. And it was never considered, as far as I'm aware, that it wouldn't take place at this time of year. But if it is, and actually I saw some people discussing this on Twitter, or X or whatever we're calling it, about the possibility of abandoning certain European friendly kickoff times to let the teams play later in the day when the heat isn't so severe or so bad or so punishing and working it that way to, to, you know, a bit more care towards their well being. But in order to do that, you know, that would pose a risk to FIFA's TV audience and I just don't see them going down that route. I don't see them wanting to do that. Aside from anything else, they have a huge number of games to cram in next summer because the World cup, like the Club World cup, is an expanded tournament and they've only got a certain amount of time to cater for that through June and July. I actually felt like a bigger issue at the Club World cup were the delays caused by the threat of thunderstorms. You know, the in match breaks where, you know, we saw on quite a few occasions kind of genuine interludes in the middle of a fixture. And that completely changes the nature of the game, changes the integrity of the game. You just can't have a scenario in a serious and major competition where fixtures are routinely held up because it looks like there's going to be thunder and lightning. And again, I don't really see any solution to that. The weather just is the weather. So I think that the main focus for FIFA as far as that's concerned over the next 12 months is going to be how it's managed and what can be done to protect the players in particular, but not just them, also supporters in the, in the various stadiums, making sure that enough provisions, enough water and everything else, cooling breaks for the players which have been going on at the Club World cup. Although you have to Say that beyond that, it's difficult to know what strategies you would have for, you know, for kind of tackling what is pretty, pretty severe heat wave over in the States at the moment. Long story short, next summer it's going to be hot because it always is and everybody is just going to have to get on with with it.
- [47:48]
Narrator 4
So just one other thing, Phil. I think I'm really interested to see what lessons FIFA have learned about, about how they price games for next year. You know, it was one of the big, big stories in many ways of this tournament was just they do this dynamic pricing model, they say in accordance with, you know, the way that things are done in America, which is kind of true. But I think it was pretty embarrassing at certain points on both ends of the scale. You know, both the way that they set out at the start to essentially extort from fans, you know, some of the prices that were being asked, you know, right at the start, after the draw for, for games in this tournament were pretty extortionate. You know, the opening game into Miami against Al Ahi, I think they're asking for about $350 for the cheapest seat in the stadium to people who in Miami get to watch Messi every week. Anyway, it was pretty bizarre as a pricing strategy. And then you saw the extreme and pretty absurd fluctuation. So before the semifinal, I think it was Chelsea Fluminense, you had semi final tickets for that scheduled game going for about $470 on the Wednesday and then by the Saturday it was $13. So it wasn't impossible. You had two people sat next to each other who would spend basically for the same seat, $473 and $13. And that, that is not fair. What I would say is where they eventually listened whether it was either out of embarrassment because they were worried about stadiums just not being full, they did reduce the prices massively in the end in order to get people in. But imagine if they'd set out at the start and said, you know, all these other sports in America, NBA, NFL, they're ripping you off. We're going to be the sport. We know we have this big World cup here next summer. We want you to get a taste of it. We want to bring in these new fans, we want you to experience this. We're going to set prices, therefore a really fair point somewhere like 50, $60, which in the States for best of the best sport is pretty fair. But they just didn't go about it like that. And I think it turned people off at the start and it was only when the prices fell that the stadium starts to fill up. But next year, I do suspect they will take the view. It's a World Cup. It's the most premium sports competition in the world and we will set prices accordingly and try and get the most we can because we then want to return that money to football all around the world.
- [50:25]
Narrator 5
All right gents, let's finish there. Adam, Phil, thank you so much for your insight and also thank you guys for listening. We're back soon.
- [50:32]
IO Akimol
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [50:52]
Narrator 4
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
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