Ayo Akimolere (3:24)

Yeah, Matt, Arsenal keep their five point lead at the top of the Premier League, ahead of Manchester City right now. Set piece FC strike again.

Matt Slater (3:32)

Yeah, I mean, I was sort of thinking that it was the most season 25, 26 game imaginable. All three goals scored by Arsenal from set pieces. Ridiculous red car for Chelsea. It was a sort of late offside goal. It was offside. Also looked a bit nervous. And then they kind of, you know, once they got the man advantage and calmed down a bit, exerted control. So it just. It just sort of kind of encapsulated so many things that we sort of talk about and write about was it wasn't very good. I mean, are we. Are we allowed to suggest. Are we allowed to say that?

Ayo Akimolere (4:06)

Yeah, you can be very clear. It was not great. Yet again, compound the fact that it doesn't look like they want to win the Premier League.

Matt Slater (4:13)

But yeah, you're right, it's funny, isn't it? I mean, they just look better in Europe. I thought Chelsea were the better team when it was 11v11. A lot happened. I'm not saying it was boring, I'm just saying it wasn't that good. I don't know, Leon, what do you think? You watch them more often than me.

Liam Toomey (4:30)

No, I agree.

Ayo Akimolere (4:30)

Do you agree Chelsea were the better team?

Matt Slater (4:32)

11 v 11.

Liam Toomey (4:32)

It depends on the prison through which you look at it. Because I also am old enough at this point to remember when Chelsea played Arsenal in the kind of Mourinho Wenger era. And quite a lot of the games would look like this, where Arsenal would have more of the ball. They'd play some nice technical stuff. Chelsea's superior physicality and kind of winning DNA would show through in key moments. And that, I think, was pretty emphatically reversed at the Emirates. And I thought, you know, Olly Kay wrote a piece for the Athletic last week which was bang on the money, which is these. These clubs, at least on the pitch, have effectively switched identities in recent years. Arsenal are built to win now. You can see it from the players they sign, from the way they play, from what they prioritize. They're not trying to win hearts and minds, they're trying to win the Premier League. And they may well get there, even though at times they don't look super convincing. Whereas Chelsea are all about the process, all about the portfolio, and they have a lot of talent, but they don't have, as we see on the pitch, any discipline, really at the moment. And that's been a problem that's been going on for three years. And they are not built to win in quite the same way, both from an age profile and from the way the team and the squad is constructed.

Matt Slater (5:53)

How about a goalkeeper profile?

Ayo Akimolere (5:54)

Well, that's another one. Yeah, exactly. We did a thing for week in football last week, and we were talking about this disciplinary issue with Chelsea, and it's not just the red cards, per se, because this is also stuff that preceded Rossinha joining. It's also discipline across the field, whether it be set pieces, whether it be goalkeeper, whether it be in all departments. How does he rectify that to the point in which Chelsea get to a point where they might actually be consistent enough to. To. To challenge for the Champions League?

Liam Toomey (6:22)

It's difficult. I think you need time and authority, and he doesn't really have any time at this point, given the frequency of the games and the fact that we are in the final stretch of the Premier League season now. And he hasn't come in with a ton of authority, not because of any. Anything against Liam Rosinha personally, but just because of his track record and where he's come from. He's having to prove himself, I think, to the squad as well as to the fans, to the. To everyone on the outside. But he's also not the first one who has struggled with these particular issues. You know, I think a lot of people were willing to write it off when Chelsea were breaking the 100 cards in a season barrier under Mauricio Pochettino, as. Oh, he's, you know, a fiery Argentine that, you know, the team kind of embodies his personality. They fight on the pitch and they're really young. They'll grow out of this. Then it continued under Enzo Maresca. Okay, they weren't fighting over taking penalties, but they were still getting a lot of yellow cards, too many reds. And this season they're about on pace, I'd say, to get around 100 cards again in the Premier League season. They're always near the top or the bottom of that disciplinary table, depending on which way you read it. And I think, you know, I wrote about this for the Athletic recently. Some of that is baked into the way they play. Any team that is as aggressive in hunting the ball as Chelsea are is going to commit fouls by design as much as by accident, because you're trying to stop counter attacks, you're trying to break up an opponent's rhythm as well as win the ball back. And occasionally you're going to mistime those badly enough to get yellow cards. It's the other yellow cards that they get is Pedro Neto's first yellow against Arsenal for dissent, where he's just protesting a goal that was completely legitimate. The replay showed that Robert Sanchez was just screened by Andres Santos really meekly before Jurian Timber heads in. And there are just so many examples of that. You know, even after Neto gets sent off, Enzo Fernandez gets booked for just throwing the ball down in frustration. That happens way too much with this Chelsea team. And it's been happening for three years and a lot of these players are older now, you know, and it's still happening. And Pedro Neto is one of the older guys in the team. So it's not really. I don't think you can use inexperience as a crux. I think it's a cultural issue. Rosinha didn't hide from that in his post match press conference. He said, it's a deep rooted thing that we need to figure out and they need to figure it out really quickly because it is arguably more than anything else torpedoing their season.

Ayo Akimolere (8:59)

Yeah, Villa next for Chelsea. Matt and all these things we're talking about in terms of discipline and cultural issues. It probably doesn't help that these same set of players have probably gone through quite a few managers to, to get to this point. How do you get that consistency if you don't have the same kind of person at the helm all the time?

Matt Slater (9:16)

Yeah, maybe. I think Liam's onto something though. I think it, I think it is sort of this deep seated cultural issue. They just seem, I don't know, they're a bit entitled, I'm not sure, just a bit petulant. I mean, the, the first yellow was ridiculous. There was a nice wide shot that match, the day used where you can see Rhys James. I mean, everybody knows you send your captain to moan, right? And the referees tend to sort of kind of. They let you off with one, right? They, they kind of shoo you away, right? I don't want to talk to you anymore. He carries on. The rest of the players have stopped and he's still going. You can see James saying, enough, enough, enough, enough. So it's Almost like it was very performative. I want a yellow card because I'm so annoyed. Right, great. You've got yourself a yellow card and then you do a silly foul. I mean, where he does raise his leg to chop the guy down, you know, it just. Yeah, it was so self inflicted. It was sort of like, I'm in a bad mood. Oh, I want. I'm. I'm going to show everybody I'm in a bad mood by picking up a red card. I mean, ridiculous.

Liam Toomey (10:14)

Just on that and not to pick on Pedro Neto. We're talking about a bigger issue here. Every red card's been a different player. But just something I noticed yesterday before he got his yellow card, I know there were some Chelsea fans taking issue with the amount of dissent that Chelsea are allowed to show relative to other teams in their eyes before referees start flashing the yellow card. I saw Pedro Neto battling with the ball near the touchline, right in front of the press box, not get the throw in, given his way. And very demonstrably and loudly tell the linesman to F off.

Ayo Akimolere (10:45)

Right.

Liam Toomey (10:46)

This was before he got his yellow card. So it felt like he was on a mission to get a descent yellow. And like I say, I'm not flagging that to pick on him because I just think it's indicative of a broader issue in the Chelsea team that they just let go of their heads in situations like this. And success in the Premier League depends on bringing your adrenaline and level of competition intensity to that point and then not going over it. And repeatedly they go too far. And it doesn't manifest often in, like, really dirty challenges. It manifests in petulance, as Matt says, and officials are clamping down on that. They've had nearly 50 yellow cards for dissent in the last three years. That is low hanging fruit. If you want to address Chelsea's disciplinary problems, you don't start with the tackles because players will always get tackles. Wrong. You start with the stuff that is easily avoidable.

Ayo Akimolere (11:42)

Okay, we'll talk about Chelsea's finances next.

Podcast Producer/Announcer (11:47)

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Ayo Akimolere (14:18)

While Chelsea booked the highest pre tax loss in English football history in the 2425 season, that was more than double the next highest deficit in Europe per data released by UEFA. Matt, you know where I'm going here. Break this down. What does this actually mean?

Matt Slater (14:33)

Oh dear. Well, the numbers. There are so many ways you can look at it. The metrics are all bad, right? As you say, they've lost the best part of 350 million last year. UEFA do it on a kind of annual basis, not on a season by season basis, which is a bit confusing. And UEFA do their accounting in Quite different ways to the Premier League. And the way that Chelsea would file accounts at Companies House. So the number is probably worse, definitely worse than Chelsea think it really is. So, you know, that's fine, there's a couple caveats there. But look, it's still 350 million, right? I mean there's no getting away from that. That's a colossal loss over a three year period. It's 600 million. I mean it' staggering. Which is 10 times the permitted loss threshold for UEFA. You're allowed to lose, I think 60 million euros. So I mean, it's funny, we've been talking about a lack of discipline. I mean just a lack of discipline from a business point of view as well. You know, it's two times the loss of Leon, you know, John text as Leon, that basket case. But Chelsea will say there are a few kind of one off accounting things we're doing here, like we're booking losses now. They'll say that the direction of travel's better. They'll say things like, well, it's made worse by the 30 odd million pound fine that we had to pay Tua for the year before for breaching their rules. Well, we didn't have a shirt sponsor then, but we have now. Great. Again, that's kind of on you guys. And, and then there are definite, like I say, one off accounting things like write offs. When you write, sorry, write down the value of things, write down the value of players. All right, but that's again, this is a sort of corollary of your business strategy of signing lots of young players. And by definition young players might come off, they might not. You know, you have definitely stockpiled and replenished the stocks and you've filled two or three squads worth of young talent there. There's plenty of sellable talent there. And of course they do still sell well, I think, liam, is it $300 million worth last summer?

Liam Toomey (16:32)

Yeah, Roundabout. Yeah.

Matt Slater (16:34)

So. But their operating loss, their kind of non player trading state of affairs is bad. You know, they're running so hot for so long and I think when I look at it in a clear lake. The Boli consortium came in in 2022. So we're sort of nearly four years in here. And this is supposed to be smart money, right? Those are the cliches used is private equity smart money. And I know that there's always a bit of confusion around how much they paid for the club. You know, is it. Was it a 4.25 million takeover or a 2.5 million takeover? They paid 2.5 million for the shares and they said, we're going to spend 1.75 billion over the next 10 years or so on making this really work, with the unstated goal, I think, of sort of dubbing its value. And at some point we're going to sell it for 10 billion-plus and we're all going to walk away rich. And all our people that invest with us, the smart money, the private, you know, the other rich people, the sovereign wealth funds that give Clearlake and Boley money to invest, are all going to be delighted. Well, here we are four years in, we're nearly. We're not quite halfway, but we're sort of on the road to being halfway. What have they done? They've lost. They've lost 600 million plus. A crucial part of the plan was to make progress with the stadium. I'm not seeing any progress whatsoever. They've done lots of accounting tricks to kind of get around Premier League rules, you know, selling hotels, car parks to themselves. Basically, they've sold a chunk of the women's football team, you know, both to themselves and to an external investor at a high valuation. Fine. Not alone. I'm not saying they're alone. And they didn't, you know, they didn't break a Premier League rule there. UEFA, by the way, don't, don't count those things, which is why the UEFA number is worse than the Premier League number. But I'm just sort of looking. We're 40% into the project here, guys, of a normal private equity investment. I know you like to say you're patient and you're long term, but when's this turning around? When is this getting better?

Ayo Akimolere (18:27)

And I don't know, I guess they could say there's some shiny trophies so far, club World cup and all that kind of jazz and whatever that's brought in, but, I mean, what does this mean for psr, Matt, from that perspective? Are they going to be punished?

Matt Slater (18:38)

Well, so this is the last season of PSR. So 20. Yeah, 25, 26. The season we're in is the last season of profitability and sustainability rules. Right. As discussed and written, we are moving. The Premier League is moving to UEFA star squad cost. So we know that no club has failed PSR this season. They've all had to get their accounts in. And the briefing, the messages are, we're not going to have any cases this year. Now, if you're shocked, well, how can a club lose 350 million with UEFA and not be in trouble with the Premier League? It's to do with these different treatments. What's it called? The accounting perimeter. I don't want to get too technical, but the Premier League is looking often more leniently at the same things and it'll be, it'll be everything from those asset sales I mentioned, even how the Premier League treats some of the player trading. So they tend to be more lenient and generous. UEFA can be a little bit strict with what it considers to be swaps. So there was the, there was the Matson Kellyman swap. They would take a very dim view of that. They'd almost sort of write it off, whereas the Premier League wouldn't. And of course, the usual caveat, you can take off things like what you spend on the women's team, your player development. So there's always things that can come off the top line loss to bring you under the limit. So for PSR purposes, I think Chelsea are fine. They're going to probably be very, very, very close, I would imagine, as they have been for several years now. I just think, you know, they're on a business plan with UEFA. That's one of the other reasons why they are sort of exuding calm and they're saying nothing to see here. We did get punished by UEFA and we agreed a settlement which included this fine and we are sticking to a business plan. And as long as the loss they've just booked, that was only just announced by UEFA last week, is kind of what we told UEFA was coming and the direction of travel is good, we'll be okay. And I, you know, I'm going to take Chelsea at their word that one, they're okay on psr and I think I know that because I'm sort of hearing that from the Premier League too. And two, even with UEFA, they are sticking to their business plan and they probably are turning the old tanker a little bit from extreme record breaking losses to how is this smart money? How on earth are these private equity guys getting their money back? Just normal kind of head scratching stuff. You know, football is a very strange business type conversation.

Ayo Akimolere (21:07)

Yeah. Is Champions League important this season? Could they afford to get into the Europa League and see how things play out?

Liam Toomey (21:14)

Could they afford it? Yes. Would it necessitate different decisions? Yes. You know, they have this player trading model that is essentially, I think, as Matt says, pretty much the only thing that we've seen them be really proactive about in four years is just overhauling the squad and establishing this massive portfolio of what they would consider to be tradable assets. And they do that in part, we are told, because they consider themselves to be operating at a significant revenue deficit with the stadium relative to rivals, because they've chosen to go without a front of shirt sponsor for so long. And so they're depending on that player trading model to be not just break even, but to be kind of profitable, at least on the balance sheet in order to make up for some of these other things. If you don't have Champions League revenue, the amount of profit you need to make from that goes up in order to make up for other things and it also impacts what you can spend. You know, if Chelsea do miss out on the Champions League this year, which is looking like ever more a distinct possibility given their run in and the Premier League table, then can they. I mean, they insist they've got no interest in selling their best players. That's completely adamant, fundamental to the model. But can you afford to give those players new contracts, pay rises that they might think they want? Do you have to sell other players around the edges who may not be core right now to what you're doing, but all these players are young, they might be good in the future, you know, could you potentially be forced to sell a bit early on some of these guys? And does it forestall you buying the players that this team clearly needs still to make the leap to a genuine contender for the title, which Chelsea haven't been since 2017.

Ayo Akimolere (22:58)

Yeah, I'm still scratching my head at the whole shirt sponsor thing, gents. I don't know if anyone has any insight, but I was reading something, maybe it was on the Athletic, but Chelsea are holding out for a big sum of money because that's how they value it. So intermittently they're having these shirt sponsors that will carry them to the end of the season, but not on a three or four year deal, is that right?

Liam Toomey (23:16)

Well, they want kind of 50, 60 million pounds a year. Like the last multi year deal that Chelsea had was under Abramovich with three telecommunications company which was 40 million a year. So they want a substantial rise on that.

Ayo Akimolere (23:29)

But that was a team winning the Champions League. That was a team winning the Premier League.

Liam Toomey (23:33)

It's much harder consistently qualifying for the Champions League. I know they had a couple of down years under Abramovich, but the record has been much more spotty under this ownership so far and may end in, you know, a sixth place finish again this year. So again, as you know, I come back to what Matt said earlier. We're almost four years in and when you apply that to the front of shirt Sponsorship. Do you, at some point, at what point do you revisit your negotiating starts and think maybe the market isn't there for what we think we're worth? Because this is the third front of shirt sponsorship they've done now, which is technically during the season, even Infinite Athlete was, I think in September. And again, even if they would argue it strategic from the inside, from the outside, it feels very ad hoc and kind of indicative of some of the other things they're doing, which is like almost laying down the track in front of a moving train.

Matt Slater (24:23)

The logic is fine. I don't mind the logic, certainly from the outset. Right, let's not lock ourselves in to a deal that undervalues us. And it is worth sometimes holding on, being aggressive, saying no to shorter term deals, because we think if we can just, just hold fast here, we'll get the three, four, five year. And then all these deals have kind of built in multipliers. So if you look over the 10 year period, suddenly what seemed odd in year one, year two, year three is reaping huge dividends in years seven, eight, nine, 10, all fine. And it reminds me of naming rights deals, for example. They're the classic one, be it Tottenham's or West Ham's naming rights deals that haven't happened because they've held out for number, that they feel they are worth, that the market isn't quite ready for. It just isn't ready for, you know, no one's biting their hands off, so nothing happens. And you sort of think, well, we've left money on the table there. They did actually offer us something. Should we have taken that money? And at some point, you know, it is a graph and these lines should meet and you should sort of say, ah, we probably, you know, we tried holding out but we are literally now leaving money on the table. That, that is daft. I just feel that Chelsea went through that point about a year ago. The whatever value worth, they think the Chelsea brand really is worth and the market just isn't getting it. And you know, it's a little bit sort of Napoleon esque, isn't it, that the world is. That everyone else is mad. But maybe the world isn't mad. Maybe you're mad, maybe you should. Maybe that's what the market thinks Chelsea's worth, you know, for a front of shirt. It's not. These are not small amounts of money. They're not. They're not saying you're Grimsby, they're saying you're, you know, the third or fourth best team in the Best league in the world. No. No one's trying to mug you off. Yeah.

Liam Toomey (26:18)

You think if they couldn't get the price they wanted after a summer in which they'd qualify for the Champions League and won the inaugural Club World Cup. So you're marketing the World Champions.

Ayo Akimolere (26:27)

Yeah.

Liam Toomey (26:28)

And they still went into the new season not being able to get the deal they wanted. Are you ever going to have a stronger position?

Matt Slater (26:35)

Well, maybe the world is saying maybe that's a vote on FIFA's Club World Cup. Let's see a few more of these before we start pricing it in.

Ayo Akimolere (26:42)

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

Matt Slater (26:44)

Does anyone really think Chelsea are the best team in the world?

Liam Toomey (26:47)

It's hard to argue that at this point.

Ayo Akimolere (26:48)

I mean, I'm glad you said that, Liam.

Matt Slater (26:50)

Did anyone last summer think, oh, amazing, Chelsea have just beaten psg, they're the best team in the world. No, they didn't. They thought, oh, brilliant. Chelsea deserve to win that game. Well done, then.

Ayo Akimolere (26:59)

But we need to see more receipts.

Matt Slater (27:00)

They're still, like the third or fourth place. Yeah, they're still the third or fourth best team in England.

Ayo Akimolere (27:05)

How much scrutiny do you think this puts on the ownership, then, Matt? You're talking about four years in now and you're still trying to figure out, we're all still trying to figure out what the big plan is. Is there more scrutiny on the ownership, not just from football fans, but, I mean, from the world of business?

Matt Slater (27:18)

Well, there should be and yes, there is. I'm, you know, I'm hearing that all the time. They. They had a. They had a great honeymoon because, look, they managed to do this thing really quickly. It was a. It was a very strange process. You know, everyone, I think, remember, you know, Abramovich being sanctioned and, you know, government effectively kind of taking control of this thing. It was. It was. It was a very exciting. It was a. It grabbed a lot of attention. And, you know, Chelsea a. A club that famous in London, where a lot of the kind of hard work had been done that was often sort of talked about. Abramovich had spent so much money on building the brand, turning them into winners. Very attractive asset. And it was very kind of peak football. I mean, looking back now, kind of peak sort of you. U.S. interest in football, certainly kind of like that. You know, the real big ticket items. So, you know, Boli and Clear Lake One, they won a competitive process and then they hit the ground, you know, running and, you know, lots of statements, and they were always at business conferences. No no one's, no one thinks they're geniuses right now. Not when I ask around. No one is sort of looking back and going, wow, you know, well, well done them for winning that auction. And well, I'll really clever with the amortization. That was really smart. And oh look, and the multi club model. Everyone's looking and going, I don't know, guys, what are you saying to your investment committee? What are you saying to your investors, Clear Lake, who are saying that money we've invested in your fund, how's it doing? If I look at the app, am I up or am I down? And I think that's what I'm hearing. And how's that stadium going? Because I remember you definitely telling me this was all about London and this is about, you know, a sport and entertainment hub in the best bit of London. How is that coming along? Have we found a site yet? These are the sort of questions and I. And just one last thing, it is quite funny, the timing of these things. Just over the weekend I saw some comments from Todd Bowley who was at a conference somewhere and he was talking about that kind of crazy sort of first window or two where he was effectively the sporting director. I know they have lots of sporting directors now, but, but he was the original one and he think he said he was talking about sort of the Cucarella. Right. We went for Cucarella because I didn't really know what I was doing, but I knew that Manchester City wanted him. So man City number one, you know, best in business. I know enough about business to know that if one of my competitors who's really, really good wants something that's. That's pretty good.

Liam Toomey (29:41)

Right.

Matt Slater (29:41)

So. So we went after Cucarella. In itself, that's not that stupid. I mean, it is quite honest. It sort of reveals like, yes, I was making the calls and no, I didn't really know what I was doing and I really was sort of looking around, I mean, effectively kind of reading the papers, reading the Athletic to sort of kind of make these big decisions. And then I'm sort of thinking about the sort of things that we do hear from the club, which is very much run by Clear Lake. Now. Bowley has steps or everybody knows that. And it's sort of Egbali is kind of running the show and he's sort of kind of making excuses for this terrible loss they recorded last year as we had a lot of repairing to do. And I think everyone's assumed he's talking about Abramovich. We had to replenish the stocks. We had to sort of get things, you know, going commercially. We had a lot of repairing to do. I think he's talking about Boli. I think he's talking about his partner.

Liam Toomey (30:28)

They do also think that first window, I mean, I think that the ownership are pretty unanimous that a lot of mistakes were made in that first window and have had to be kind of undone since or extricated from. They look at a lot of this in terms of contracts that they give out to players. And we've seen since January 2023 when the Sporting directors came in, all these incentivized contracts, lower base salaries, you know, performance markers for Champions League participation, all that stuff. None of that was with the signings that they made in that first window. That was much more of a continuation, really, of the Abramovich era type spending. So that's not the way they wanted to continue. So I think they probably look at their start point, Matt, as you say, as January 2023 rather than June 2022, and they're still kind of undoing the damage from that summer as well as what they consider to be the sins of the Abramovich era.

Ayo Akimolere (31:25)

Well, after that deep dive of Chelsea's finances, let's move on to all the other teams. Also in this Champions League race,

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These are making a comeback, I think.

Ayo Akimolere (33:02)

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Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Matt Slater (33:18)

Hernandez swings in another.

Liam Toomey (33:25)

He gets the power and he gets the direction.

Ayo Akimolere (33:30)

Well, Manchester United came from behind to beat Crystal palace on Sunday, a result that now puts them third ahead of Aston Villa on goal difference. Liam, six wins in seven Premier League games under Carrick. Do you see them as favorites for third place? At this moment?

Liam Toomey (33:44)

They're in full Soulshire mode. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. As long as they don't give him the permanent job yet, they might win every game until the end of the season. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. It does feel like quite a few things have fallen into place for them and that Carrick has just kind of focused on putting a fairly unspectacular but quite solid foundation in and letting their attackers, with their individual quality, just really win games for them. And they haven't always been convincing for 90 minutes, but they've always found those moments. And increasingly recent weeks it's been Benjamin Sesko finally turning up, either from the bench or from the start to find those moments. And I think, yeah, we are seeing the fruits of the money that they spent on their attack last summer. There were lots of questions about why they didn't spend on their midfield and I think to an extent that's still valid and I think it's probably something they'll look to address this summer. But they really did upgrade their attack. Brian and Bumo has been very good throughout. I mean, we, we all know how good Bruno Fernandes is and he's back in his best position now. Matias Cunha is starting to show more flashes and, and of course Cesco is now, I think after being a bit of a passenger for the first half of the season, I never got the impression that Ruben Amarim was particularly enamored with him. Looks like he's full of confidence now and is winning games for them. And yeah, I think they will finish third. That's definitely the trajectory that they're on. And Aston Villa are on.

Ayo Akimolere (35:08)

Yeah. And Matt, let's talk about Aston Villa. They've just won three in their last 10 games. The West Midlands gasped as they lost to Wolves on the weekend as well. Now, we need to talk about money as well. Villa incurred an estimate pre tax loss of £82 million in their submissions to UEFA for the 24th, 25 season. It now marks the third successive year they have lost money. They need Champions League football just as much as Chelsea, just as much as Manchester United, surely.

Matt Slater (35:35)

Yeah, they do. They're. They're in that sort of tough spot, aren't they, where I think people are sort of talking about a big eight now. Right. So we've. We've had the big six here. I'm not sure if you still casting spurs, but anyway, we've had the big six era and now we have the big eight. And, and that would be Newcastle and Villa. Now of those, Villa have definitely been the best football team. They've got a lot, right. Everyone likes, you know, em. You know, he's a very good manager. However, they, you know, it's very hard to sort of kind of jump a social bracket and they have got frustrated. They have very. They have very wealthy owners, billionaire owners. And of course we know that they have bridled against PSR and they have been sort of, you know, quite difficult Premier League meetings. They want to go further, they want to go faster. But it's tricky, right? And it nearly always comes down to, right, You. You almost sort of have to think about it. Almost. Not kind of a generation, but probably a decade. You've really, really got to kind of improve your training ground, your youth system. You've got to really invest at the bottom there. And you might not see these players or the sales from them for a few years, but that's that, you know, you can spend as much as you like there. So to do it. And you've really got to do something about your stadium. And they've got a beautiful old stadium, historic stadium, but it's. But it's tightly constrained. You know, it's surrounded by houses. They have a station issue where, you know, there's a sort of getting people in and out is difficult. They have all the problems that a lot of City clubs have. So fixing that is difficult. It's not just a money issue. It's a sort of political issue. It's a local political politics issue. So, you know, they're gonna have to work that out. And they're finding it difficult in the same. You know, I could say all these things about Chelsea, couldn't I? So that's their issue. And. And until they get those things sorted, they're going to be in this very tricky. We can keep going, we can keep pushing. If we've got champions football. Champions League football is the sort of extra gas. It's that 50, 60 million plus, whatever. They get an extra, you know, match day and a little bit extra in commercial as well. That can keep the sort of. We can keep pushing, but if we don't get Champions League football, we have to back off. And that might actually slow us down a year, two, three years from where we want to get to, which is, you know, genuinely going eyeball to eyeball with Liverpool City, you know, those clubs that have. That are in the higher bracket. So I do have a sympathy for the villas of this world. I think they're getting a lot right on the pitch. And because they don't have those annual safe revenues, the really big global commercial revenues, that slightly bigger stadium, they're very dependent, as I say, on the broadcast income, which comes with Champions League football. And it just means their squad's a little bit lighter. And that, I think, has been the issue. And because they have been playing extra football because of. They've earned it. Injuries have hit them, they've got tired, they're fantastic. When I wrote about them, I think I can't remember if it was before. I think it was before Christmas and I was sort of watching them and they were on that incredible run and their midfield was just purring for sort of a month or so. They had the best midfield in the Premier League. Well, a lot of those guys are hurt or tired and they haven't got, you know, guys just to come off the bench and go, yeah, yeah, we can keep this going, we can keep this going. You know, I feel sorry for them. If I was a Villa fan, I'd be frustrated. But, you know, injuries, fatigue, tiredness, that is part of the game. So do they need Champions League football? Yes, they need Champions League football. If they want to carry on being really aggressive, buying the players they want to buy, really thinking we deserve to be top 3, 4, 5. If it's Europa League football or Conference League football. No, they're going to. They're going to. They're going to be back in that sort of 6, 7, 8 churn again, I think, which is tricky. Very tricky.

Ayo Akimolere (39:16)

Yeah. Sorry for the fans. I was hoping we'd get some good news there, but unfortunately not. Liverpool beat West Ham 52 at Anfield Liam on Saturday. And I've also leapfrogged Chelsea now in the table, moving three points clear of them and also below Chelsea. Brentford aren't too far either, actually. But after Villa, Chelsea still have to play both Manchester United and also Liverpool. But I guess the positivity in many respects is that things are still in Chelsea's hands. If they really do want this yeah.

Liam Toomey (39:45)

The good thing about having the most difficult run in the whole Premier League is that you can affect your principal rivals if you play well and win those games. They can control if Liverpool and Manchester United drop points. But I think you'd still rather have the easier games. Of course.

Matt Slater (40:01)

Of course.

Liam Toomey (40:02)

And Liverpool, I think, are in the top, sort of six or seven easiest. I believe in that same graphic. United, I think, have made the most of a more favorable run. But of course that run also included beating Arsenal and Manchester City back to back, which was just so massive for them. So I do genuinely think at this point, given the direction of travel, Aston Villa might be Chelsea's best chance of getting top five. It depends how far they fall. And that means that game on Wednesday at Villa park is just so big for both teams. Yeah, it's. It's so massive.

Ayo Akimolere (40:37)

Nicely, doesn't it?

Liam Toomey (40:37)

Yeah, because I, I think it could be, it could be decisive in either stabilizing Villa or giving Chelsea some absolutely vital momentum heading into the the final nine games.

Ayo Akimolere (40:50)

Okay, well, let's leave it there for today, gentlemen. Appreciate your time, Liam, and also Matt, thanks for joining us. And also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.

Podcast Producer/Announcer (41:00)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. The executive producer was a moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company. Production.

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