Ayo Akimolere (1:59)

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. The transfer window may be closed, but the industry still moves on behind the scenes. To tell us a little bit more about that side of things as well as what it's like to be an agent. Well, we've got one in the studio, so let's find out exactly what do agents do? Right in front of me we have a special guest, James Featherstone Stone agent to the stars, including Crystal Palaces Adam Wharton. Good to have you with us, sir.

James Featherstone (2:30)

Thanks.

Ayo Akimolere (2:31)

And also Stu James. Not an agent to the stars, but, you know, you've spoken to a fair few in your time.

Stu James (2:36)

Great to be back on here.

Ayo Akimolere (2:37)

Yeah, absolute pleasure. James, you have to start with you on this one. Look, there are probably a lot of people sitting here thinking, I want to Earth. Can you get that job? Some might think it's the job of dreams, but I imagine it's also a stressful place to be in. How did you become an agent and what motivated you to go in that direction?

James Featherstone (2:52)

It is a very unique industry, and my way into it wasn't probably, as you might imagine in terms of with great structure or foresight or process. I played as a young boy and a young man. I came through the system at Leeds United and Blackburn Rovers. My career was very short and sweet. I then did eight years in banking, and we were blessed or cursed with a credit crisis, whoever's old enough to remember that. So I needed a change of direction and I'd had this kind of thing in the back of my mind. A lot of my friends were players, had had good careers. So, yeah, that was Omnisports and, you know, been incredibly blessed. Never really looked back or come up for air might be more appropriate.

Ayo Akimolere (3:38)

Was there any point ever where you, like, you miss playing football because it doesn't always work out for a lot of people, but actually on the flip side as well, not a lot of people go on and actually make businesses for themselves and things like that?

James Featherstone (3:48)

Yeah, definitely. I think there's playing football and then there's being or aspiring to be a professional footballer. And I think the two are very, very different. I certainly miss playing. There's quite a few stone. Sorry, years ago.

Ayo Akimolere (4:00)

Yeah, yeah, you're in a good team here. We get you.

James Featherstone (4:04)

For me, being an agent now, it's incredible to be back involved. And also as well, it's a small world. And a lot of my friends that I grew up with, that I played with are either, you know, clients or coaches or, you know, they're involved in some way. So it's a great ecosystem to operate in.

Ayo Akimolere (4:20)

Okay, Stu, company aside, what has your dealing been like with agents in general?

Stu James (4:25)

They're hugely important, you know, to our industry as journalists, you know, trying to build those contacts. You know, certainly in the 20 years or so that I've been a journalist, you spend a lot of time trying to get to know those people. It's easier with some than it is with others. Or should I say a lot more difficult with some. But, yeah, really helpful in terms of giving you an insight as to what's going on at clubs with players. And trust is absolutely central to that. Obviously, you know, you're not going to be talking to agents very often on the record. A lot of the time it's off the record and it's playing a long game at times with things like that, you know, you might know things, but you can't write that. But it's just informing your thinking and getting a better understanding. So, yeah, absolutely. Crucial part of your contacts book is the. Is the agents, you know.

Ayo Akimolere (5:07)

Yeah, Stu just mentioned a really interesting word. I think just in the world of football in general, James, trust, you know, this is a strange industry at times, but for you, dealing with players, meeting players, connecting with players, you're in charge of people's careers. How do you build that trust with someone you've never, ever met? And, you know, maybe you've got a whisper here. Someone says, this is a good player. How do you build that trust up to say, actually, I want to represent you?

James Featherstone (5:32)

Yeah, it's incredibly difficult. And I think trust is probably the most important part of a relationship. From an Omnisport's perspective, my perspective, you've got to really have a firm understanding of yourself, what you want to be and how you want to feel. One of our guiding principles is delivery on trust. As soon as you've been around and, you know, done a few deals and got a network or, you know, I don't want to sound blase, but, you know, as soon as you're in the market, I think trust, it can be quite easily earned because people do look at agents and think they know everything and they know everybody and they've got this, you know, kind of grander plan or bigger vision for my career or my son's career or daughter's career. So that's why we say delivery on trust. Because I think for me, it's more important what you do the next day in terms of rolling your sleeves up and truly adding value. Like, you know, for a lot of players, families is completely uncharted water. You know, you. This isn't your first podcast. Yeah, okay. It's not your first article that you're going to do today, tomorrow, whenever it may be. But it's the first time they've had a family member in football. It's completely uncharted water. So then somebody who does come with 15, 20 years experience is quite easy to trust, if that makes sense. So, yeah, for me, it's about what you do after that, your next action.

Stu James (6:48)

You Know, years ago there would have been some players who, and I'm not going back that far, but who would have chose to represent themselves. I remember having a conversation with a footballer, I won't say who a few years ago, but he, because it was just an off the record chat and really bright guy, and I said, could you not just do the deals yourself? And then he said to me, well, imagine what that looks like sitting across the table with the chairman trying to argue over your salary. What would you say to that? I mean, players have to have an agent, right?

James Featherstone (7:12)

If I didn't answer yes, I'd quickly talk myself, myself out of a job, right. Or a business for even the brightest.

Stu James (7:19)

Player, you know, who could be really good at negotiating. And it would be awkward for them, right, to sit across the table with their boss, effectively the owner of the club or the chief executive, sporting director.

James Featherstone (7:28)

I was reading the other day, there was a player talking about doing his own deal and using chat, GPT, GT whatever it might be, which is interesting approach I might use on my next day. I think probably the biggest thing I've seen from the outside looking in, when you, when you look at family members or, you know, players do it themselves, really difficult to separate yourself from that emotion. Yeah, really difficult to not compare with a teammate or a colleague or somebody that you've kind of crossed paths with before as an agent. First of all, one of the biggest challenges with players and people around players is accountability. You know, to get them to the pit of the stomach every single day to make good decisions, that's gonna enable them to be the best version of themselves that day, the next day and going forward. And I think when you bring an obvious bias, you know, by doing it yourself, or if it's your son or your nephew or your daughter, you miss all of that. The emotion kind of either brings or takes away if you have or haven't got it. And I think it's not only negotiations, I think, you know, to grow, to get better every day. If look at the average playing career, goalkeepers aside, you know, probably one season is maximum, probably 8% of your career. If you allow yourself to operate in a world where maybe it wasn't me, it was, you know, he's not as good as me, or he could have passed me the ball, or that strength and conditioning guy could have told me to go in the gym for a little bit longer, you're going to lose those 8%. Whereas if you live in a world where, what have I done today? How did it go? Could I Done anything better? How can I fix it tomorrow? You're going to maximize those eight percents and you're going to, you know, you're going to be growing every single day. So ultimately, you know, it's our job is to find compromise. Right? It's tough to compromise your own thoughts, your own ideas and your own values. And it's. It's so personal.

Ayo Akimolere (9:24)

I'm going to ask you a question sent in by one of our viewers on YouTube right now, and it's about agents and clubs. Actually. The question says, how do agents get to know about a club's interest in the play and how much time before the window do discussions usually start?

James Featherstone (9:39)

Depends on the player situation. I guess you've got to go quite black and white in this scenario. There are players with contracts and the players without contracts. Thankfully, we don't have too many players, certainly at this stage of the season without a contract. So if the players contracted, you are talking a long way before. So we're going into a January window. So if we take this hypothetical scenario of being, you know, October, November, December, if there was something possible for that player, whether it's the players intent or the club's intent, you'd have had come conversations with his club because he's contracted to them, okay, he has intrinsic value or cost liability within that contract or transfer value. So you would have had a conversation with the owner, sporting director, chief executive chairman, whoever it might be, and you would have had some sort of agreement in terms of what January might look like. You know, whether he's must be sold because he's in his last year of his contract or cannot be sold because he's so important to us and he's got, you know, however many years left on his contract, you'd have a sort of an M.O. between you and the club in terms of what is possible and isn't possible in January and then almost from that moment forward, you know, with their permission, with your client's understanding, you'd like to think you're on a journey and that plan there is a destination from where he's currently at in terms of his current club. And obviously, if things are going great, it's, you know, a higher destination. And if things aren't going so well, it might be a step back to take two steps forward. It's a lot more calculators, a lot more work, and a lot more time goes into it than, you know, I'll make a joke quite often about, you know, standing by the facts, you know, just obviously because nobody has facts anymore. But you know, a club will ring me and I'll go, what is it? I'm standing by the facts. You know, send the contract. It doesn't happen like that. It's. It's far more calculated and far more strategic than you might think.

Ayo Akimolere (11:34)

How do you balance that kind of public Persona of agents? They're greedy, they want all the money. You know that that is what a lot of fans are thinking. Oh, they maybe force that move because the agent needs to take their 10 or what ever. Like, how do you balance that?

James Featherstone (11:46)

For me, all I can do is have a really firm understanding of who we are, what we are, what we want to be, how we want to feel. I'm so fortunate. I think in the very, very early days I spoke earlier on about when, when I set up omnisports, my first client was my friends. You can't help but put them first. You can't help but your every living moment is to deliver for them. And that was a long time ago. And it was very fortunate that how we were set up and even more fortunate that with our guiding principles, our vision, values, everything, how we go about things, we're still a really similar business today. So. Yes, it's a stereotype. Yes. It. I don't think it'll ever go away. Okay. Because, you know, there's a, you can value a deal, A deal ages well or, or it doesn't. So I think, you know, it'll never go away. But I think, you know, all I can do is have my own version of that, be incredibly self aware of that and implement it every single day.

Stu James (12:46)

Yeah, you talk there about representing friends initially, but even over time you're going to become close to your players. That's inevitable, whether they're friends or not. Intrigued what that looks like in terms of how much you go to watch them play, which I think would probably be very different agent to agent, but also that balance. Then you have to strike between being really supportive of them, but also not just telling them what they want to hear. Because that's pretty pointless, right?

James Featherstone (13:11)

I love my players.

Stu James (13:12)

Yeah.

James Featherstone (13:12)

I don't ever shy away. I'm never embarrassed to admit it, but there's. I guess we're talking about help and harm. The two are really close together. And sometimes in any walk of life, if you think you're helping, you can actually be right on that and maybe even stepping into harm because to just tell people what they want to hear, is that really helping? Or again, do you have to really understand the position that you're In I always say it's our job to tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. And that can be really difficult. It can be incredibly conflicting as well. You know, you might be in a situation where we're not where we want to be. You know, the plan isn't going exactly as we set out. We've had to be flexible with it. You know, we're taking that backward step to take two steps forward. It's an incredibly competitive environment, football in general. But I'm talking about agents now. And there'll always probably be somebody on the sidelines, you know, that you've seen at games or looks after, you may or, you know, there's a bit of familiarity there. And guess what, he's more than happy to tell you what you want to hear. And that takes a huge amount of experience, understanding, belief in, you know, what we're trying to achieve and how we're going to go about it. And listen, sometimes, you know, you may lose a player, you may no longer be in that position to be as part of the journey. But I'd much rather lose an opportunity by staying true to herself than keep an opportunity by sugar coating. And yeah, I'm thinking back now, gosh, meetings like, you know, midnight, one o' clock in the morning, you know, with, with players, with parents, well, after a game sometimes, yeah, I'm the one I'm talking about thinking about was actually a training session and you know, you've done your triangulation, you've got the information and the conversations have started and you know, they're two hours away and it's, it's nine o', clock. So I'm setting off now and we need to, we need to speak about this now. And they are incredibly difficult conversations and everything inside you, you know, just wants to blame somebody else. But you're just going to harm them. All you're going to do is, is harm them, harm their career and you're actually going to do the exact opposite of what your purpose is in that, in that situation. So, yeah, it's tough, really tough.

Ayo Akimolere (15:31)

Before we move on, one more question from a listener saying, I'd love to know how various clubs interact with agents. Are some more friendly than others or is the relationship usually dictated by the agent?

James Featherstone (15:41)

It's interesting going to games, yeah, you try not to take it personally how you're treated. But some agent scouts will talk about the food, to talk about the drinks and talk about the soup, to talk about the sandwiches, talk about the, where you sit, that talk about the seats and talk about everything. And obviously quite often that's quite the opposite as well. With no food and no. So you are case by case in terms of their club policy. But again, I think with people, right, and it's a people business. Your player is a person, the chief execs a person, the owner's a person, the manager's a person. So I think it's very much down to the agent, the club, the individuals involved and you know, for me, my style quite informal. I pride myself on over communicating. Yeah, I would be available and I am, you know, up to discuss and to see where it takes us and what comes from that, you know. Yeah, I pride myself on good communication. I think naturally we. You've got to know everybody, right. And to know everybody, you've got to build a relationship. Maintain a relationship. Yeah. And. And be available.

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Ayo Akimolere (20:31)

Let'S move on to Adam Wharton, one of your clients. James look, this is a young man who has lit up the Premier League in recent seasons. After coming through at Blackburn, also impressing in the championship, Wharton moved to Crystal Pal. At what point did you start Looking after him, talking to him, connecting with him. But also at what point did you see talent as well? Because I think that's also important. When do you see talent and go, this kid's special.

James Featherstone (20:54)

I look after his brother Scott. He's just signed a new contract after coming back from a really serious knee injury. Incredible. To rehab as he's done and get back to where he is now and sign a new contract. The first time I ever met Adam, I was actually at their parents house and I was pitching for Scott, I was trying to sign Scott and I am in a beauty parade of, you know, probably three, four, five different agents. And that was my focus. And this wiry little kid comes in the side door from the, from the drive and proceeds to show me something on his phone and ask me what I thought of that. And he's chipping a ball into a wheelie bin. So I went down the tough love route and was like, well, there's no wheelie bins on a Saturday afternoon at 3 o'.

Momentous/SimpliSafe Advertiser (21:40)

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James Featherstone (21:41)

So then he says, you're gonna be my agent obviously, if you're good enough. So anyway, I was thankful enough and fortunate enough to be chosen to look after Scott. And Scott would have probably been 17, 18 at the time. So then it was quite a while later, I think the six, seven years between them. And then it was his dad, John rang me and he was like, listen, are you interested in looking after Adam? So I was like, oh, I need to have a look at him. He was in the academy at Blackburn. We went down to Derby. We thought it was at St. George's Park. It was actually at Loughborough.

Ayo Akimolere (22:08)

You went to the wrong place.

James Featherstone (22:09)

Went to the wrong place, yeah. Literally kind of bombed it over and got there just before kickoff. He was playing 10. They got a man sent off to 10 minutes. I think they lost. Six or seven won. He barely ran around. I got in the car and said to John, it's not really for me, I think, you know, he's got some work to do. But don't worry, I'll, you know, I'll stick with it and keep watching him. And I think it was the following Saturday. That was the 21s on a Tuesday. And then it was the following Saturday. Watched him down at Brock hall where I used to train. He played against Liverpool and I think probably within five minutes I was like, yeah, John, I'm on board, don't worry. And either that day or very shortly after and Adam would have been, yeah, like 17, 18. He was the last player at Blackburn to sign a scholarship. He was the be offered his scholarship. Sorry, so it's not a timing thing, it was an intent thing. He was the last player at Blackburn to be offered his pro contract of the ones that, you know, kind of went on to a pro after the scholarship. And as you say, his journey from there has been pretty meteoric.

Stu James (23:07)

That last because of physicality, because presumably the ability was. Was there. And there always does seem now to be such a big emphasis in football, especially in academies as well, on physicality. And that's not his. You look at his frame. I mean, what was he like back then in terms of that side of his game, really?

James Featherstone (23:22)

It was literally a time thing, you know, kind of, you know, giving Adam time, giving Blackburn time to be able to observe him at, you know, different levels. Like I say, those age restrictions being lifted, different positions, training, you know, don't forget as well, training, that's age restricted. You know, day one of your scholarship, you train with the first years, but by the end of that year you might be training with the first team. And that's a completely different sense. Check for a football club and then to then take into an office and take into a meeting and talk about future and contracts and longer term situations. So it's an obvious one to say, you know, he wasn't, you know, six foot four, you know, wide, big, whatever. Try not to swear, but, you know. Yeah, I don't think it was just that. I think it was a. It was a development and a timing thing as well.

Stu James (24:11)

And the position. Did you see the transition going from sort of 10 to 6 and what that looked like?

James Featherstone (24:17)

Oh, gosh, I mean, we're only talking three or four years ago, but, you.

Ayo Akimolere (24:21)

Know, I mean, that's literally. I was just gonna say that it's been a short space of time.

James Featherstone (24:26)

On a personal note, everyone wants to be a 10. You know, like every single player. You may. What's Your favorite position? 10. I quite like numbers and order, so, you know, kind of let's play the percentage game. You know, there's probably five tens in the Premier League. There's 20 or 30 or whatever the numbers are in terms of offensive players or wide players or center halves or, you know, whatever it might be. So I think, yeah, probably again, to accommodate him in terms of where he was at physically and then because of his technical ability, he found himself at 10. But when I first really started watching him, I always thought he had more to offer. Going both ways and also as well facing forward, which is obviously what it does predominantly now so I'm not going to sit here and say I saw 6, but I probably it was more leaning towards 8 than 10.

Stu James (25:16)

Yeah, I got you.

Ayo Akimolere (25:16)

How do you make that next stage jump then? Because the reality is not everyone, an agent will have a player on their books who's good enough to make it into the Premier League, for instance, how careful do you have to be about that next phase? And, you know, were there offers on the table and why would you choose someone like palace, for instance? Is that based on the player's development or just a really good progression stage for the player?

James Featherstone (25:37)

Sounds crazy now, but Adam and I sat in his brother's kitchen, I think, just as he was signing his first pro contract at Blackburn. And that was the first plan really that we ever made before that was, you know, get a few minutes in the 21s if you can, because he was 18s and. And, you know, it's all about, you know, turning up every day and being coachable and, you know, showing that you want to be a pro. And, you know, you might put little metrics in about training with the first team or whatever it may be, but we sat down and we, for a young player, particularly young player with Adam's ability and potential, shoot for the stars. So we spoke about playing for England and to play for England, okay, some of this was probably my opinion and experience then feeding in. But to play for England, you've got to play Champions League. To play regular is my personal opinion. To play Champions League, you've then got to be obviously at the top four clubs in England and a few others in Europe. The jump from Blackburn to there probably wasn't going to happen. And there was enough sort of precedence and examples of where that jump can be too high at times. And quite often you can take a backward step in terms of what he went on to do at Blackburn, which is establishing himself in the first team. So it was kind of the plan was get to the Premier League and, you know, hand on heart as an ex Blackburn player, and it would have been far easier as well, let's do it with Blackburn, you know, and at the time, Blackburn were under Tony Mowbray and under Yondyle Thomason, you know, they were quite good. They never quite got there, but they were, they were quite good for the playoff spot in terms of, you know, they'd be in the fight. Okay, they fell short and then sort of wind the clock forward to when he left in the January. I think that was the season they survived on, you know, the last, the last Day of the season. So the landscape had changed slightly at Blackburn. We'd had some really good conversations with the club. We'd had interest in the summer from Premier League and abroad. Probably people wouldn't really appreciate this. Sign a new contract in December, left in January, Made some really brave decisions. He did, his family did. And specifically chose Palace. There was a real fit for Adam as a player, but also as well, it helped. We had some proof of concept as well. That brought Eze, that brought Elise. You know, even Mark Gay had come. I know he's a signing from Chelsea, but he'd just done a season in the championship for Swansea, so they'd been watching him in the championship and these were players that had brought up to the Premier League in terms of level, in terms of environment, in terms of culture, in terms of standards, in terms of everything that you need to be. And they had a proven track record of integrating them and then becoming Premier League regulars. And that was ultimately what we wanted to achieve. That was why we chose Palace.

Stu James (28:20)

Five months later, he's playing for England. Yeah, that's an insane rise though, that, isn't it, from playing, obviously, being a top championship player, but to then go and nail it in the Premier League straight away, which is, as you said, it doesn't always happen like that. But then to go and play for England so fast, too.

James Featherstone (28:35)

Football moves incredibly fast, but it moves fast in both directions and I think as an agent, you have to have some consistency. Did in our wildest dreams, did we ever think it would happen that quickly?

Momentous/SimpliSafe Advertiser (28:48)

No.

James Featherstone (28:49)

Be really honest, no. But he came on at Brighton and gave the ball away and they conceded. And I wasn't at the game, I couldn't be there, but watched it on television. His mum and dad were there, actually, just his mum was there because he'd only just signed on the. I think deadline day was Friday. We'd done the deal on the Thursday, another deal on the Friday that to travel for. And then the game, I think, was a Saturday and. And I watched it on the tv. It gave the ball away and I thought, okay, now it's going to be interesting. So palace had a man sent off. He was on the bench that had a man sent off. He'd been brought on way earlier than expected. I think he was on after like 20 minutes. One of his first actions gave the ball away and, okay, it wasn't direct, it was, you know, number of touches and later on in the passage of play, but they conceded. I thought, okay, this is going to be interesting. And the first Thing he did from the kickoff, was asked for the ball and played forward and kept it. Ala thought, you know, we're gonna be fine here. Completely fine. Reason I bring that up is the way he quickly got into that palace side and quickly started performing at that level. Yes. If you'd have said to me, you know, before he moved to palace or on the day he moved to palace or the week after he moved to, he'll be in England squad and going to the Euros in the summer. I've been asking if you're on drugs or what you've been drinking.

Stu James (30:14)

But.

James Featherstone (30:14)

But as time went on and as I saw how he was, you know, kind of performing at the level he was completely deserved.

Stu James (30:24)

Nat. Then when you said about agent staying level, that's what he's like. I understand too, right. He's. I mean, I think people have said he's virtually horizontal. That helps with dealing with disappointment there, right on the pitch and things like that.

James Featherstone (30:35)

Definitely.

Stu James (30:36)

He's not going to overthink it in a negative way.

James Featherstone (30:38)

He's one of the most present people, never mind footballers, but one of the most present players I've ever dealt with. And what I mean by that is he would not spend a second thinking about something that happened in the past that went in his favor or against him. He wouldn't spend that long thinking about what might come in the future. If I keep doing this and if that happens and that happens and he does this and she does that, and he's literally so in the moment. And I found that quite challenging to be a part of because my job is planning, my job is future, my job is knowing.

Ayo Akimolere (31:21)

But surely for his playing, it's good to be clear of mind and clearly focused.

James Featherstone (31:26)

It's what you want, right? It's absolutely where you need a need to be when you enter a football pitch. But I talk about, not just Adam, I talk about in a lot of things, like almost regulating myself because, you know, there are certain things that you might think he could be doing more or less of or you want him to be thinking about or not thinking about. And quite often I sell. I solve them from us and just. That's just me. Just leave that one. Don't talk to him about that or don't talk to that player about that or that member of stuff about that. It's great. I love it.

Ayo Akimolere (31:58)

It's challenging things you've just described there. I mean, he's one of those players that some might class as a bit of a unicorn in terms of his style of play. His attitude, you know, he's quite different, some might say, but also super young. People forget as well. How hard is it to balance that with a young, up and coming Premier League star played for England. There'll be questions about playing for England, big questions about where he might go next, like how do you manage that and keep him at bay to a certain degree and cut out all the outside noise as well, because that's part of your job as well.

James Featherstone (32:29)

He's really fortunate he's such a good family behind him probably as well. You know, we've said before about uncharted water. It's not. His brother's done it and doing it. He's grown up. And Simon, his other brother, he played as well. And, you know, I think when Adam talks about his early years, he'd talk about playing with older brothers and how that means that you need to come on technically and physically, but I think also as well off the pitch, you know, he's incredibly fortunate. He's got a, you know, a brother who's got a career and has been through a lot of the things that Adam's going through and whether they've spoken about it specifically or he's just observed, he's got, he's almost got the benefit of, you know, a little bit of hindsight. I think he's really fortunate. The clubs he's been at, Blackburn, it's a fantastic club, fantastic people to then compound that with Crystal Palace. Clubs change, environments change, people change. But it, you know, it's almost as every manager or support staff, you know, they've all been incredibly important and incredibly supportive and Touchwood, we haven't really had that many. Certainly no crisis. Naturally, he's incredibly level headed. Like I say, I think it helps. It doesn't scenario test. He doesn't dwell on the past. He is getting to the thinnest end of the wedge now. And I think my role and everybody around him is how do we facilitate, help and thrive at that, that thin end of the wedge without overburdening and without making too many changes or certainly unnecessary changes.

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Ayo Akimolere (36:15)

We're going to move from Adam Wharton to talk about you, Stu, and this survey you've done conducted with agents and it's a really interesting one actually. It's love on the athletic one now, so make sure you catch it. Now. One of the questions in the survey was about players going on strike. Obviously we've seen the moves of Alexander Isak and Visa and the I guess the drama around that from your perspective. And I'll come to you in a second. James, do you think this is something we might see a little bit more of as we move forward? Players trying to force their way out of clubs?

Stu James (36:43)

I don't know. It is, to be honest with you. I think we'll ask James about this in a Minute. But what came through in the survey, speaking to agents was that this has been going on for years, really, and it's just been going on in slightly different ways. And what we had this summer was some really high profile cases and high profile cases that also became the whole transfer saga. You know, Eazap was certainly that Whistler to an extent. And then also you had on the other side the Mark Gahey one, which was really interesting because he obviously behaves like the model professional. Yes, true. Doesn't skip a training session. He's available for every game and at the end of it all he doesn't get his move. And you can look at that and think, maybe you should have done what Isaac and Whistler did. That's not in his nature. And I think speaking to agents, what they were saying also was that this is a very individual thing. It comes down to the character and personality of the player. So no two players are the same. So you could say to a player, for example, okay, you really want to get that move, you're going to have to do this. And you can't just do it for one day or a week. You're going to have to really dig your heels in. And some players would be comfortable with that. That and other players would say, I don't want to go down that path. You know, my reputation's really important to me. I'd rather see if it happens and if it doesn't, it doesn't and I'll deal with it. So, yeah, really interesting that question, but fundamentally that really came through that this isn't something new, it's just happening in a different way. And social media is a big part of that. Right, James?

James Featherstone (38:04)

Now it's also, it's, it's almost like boundaries as well, isn't it? Kind of like you say you're going to do something and you know, then you are forced to do something and you get what you want. So then the next time you do it, you've got to go a little bit further, go a little bit further. So it's always been there, you know, years and years ago it would be a player not getting what he, what he wanted and you know, he'd take part in training, but every time it come to him, it ruined the session. It'd get booted out or, you know, or he'd be injured and he's not, he's not available. So I think it's, it's just a, it's a derivative of that that has, like I say, come from, I think just you know, kind of constantly, kind of the boundary being being pushed. For me, this is where theory and reality and practice kind of clash. For a player to go on strike, he has to be under contract. Okay, a contract can be terminated, but it can only be terminated with or without just cause. And you know, how many we're sat here talking about people on going on strike or players going on strike, how many debates have you heard about terminating with or without just cause? So this is just the practical element of that. You know, we're living in a world that moves so fast, you know, that they are on strike one minute, they're stood with a shirt the next minute and they're starting the following Saturday. That doesn't give core enough time to go through due process and decide whether that was with or without just cause. So, you know, kind of, that's the kind of practical element of it. And like I say, the kind of theory and the day to day, but equally as well, it's emotions. You know, the transfer market, it's unlike any other. For a transfer to complete, there's so much subjectivity got to be overcome. You know, the emotion and love of the Newcastle ownership and fans and how what he's done for us, and we value him at this and then Liverpool, but we only see that. And actually the gate receipts or the commercial income or psr, whatever it might be, means we can only do this. Getting those two, to me, is incredibly difficult. And there are going to be moments in that where there's the people on the receiving end of it. So the selling party, the buying party, or the player himself, they're gonna think, this might not go my way. What can I do? You know, is there anything more I can do?

Ayo Akimolere (40:23)

Can it tarnish a relationship of a player, though, moving on to somewhere else? If they're like, well, that's the lad that battened the hatches and he didn't want to, you know, he didn't want to play football. Because you talk about marketability and you talk about players, you know, moving on and having these dream careers. But can it also tarnish the reputation of a player if they're known as someone who, you know, goes on strike, for instance?

James Featherstone (40:42)

I think that's for us to decide, right? And I say us, I mean us as, you know, consumers and, you know, stakeholders. And then I'm gonna say you as the press, because drink driving is completely socially unacceptable. Quite rightly so. But 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, it had a different look and feel to it. I get the impression going on strike is quite acceptable. Whatever you need to do to get your move.

Stu James (41:09)

That is the thing though, isn't it? One agent did make that point when he, he questioned how that sits with Liverpool's values, the culture of the club. But I think fundamentally a lot of fans will not care if they're getting the player they want at the end of it. Now when the shoes on the other foot and a player is leaving their club under these circumstances, then everything, all the rules change. But it is interesting and I think that some of the shift we've seen if I just think back to you know, the impact of social media now what people can do the, the player or his agency but we saw it with these act statement can take control of that narrative in a totally different way now. You know, they can go on social media and just put out a statement bang. Years ago it just wouldn't have happened like that, you know, or they start then unfollowing someone in the like, oh, you know that kind of game and is a bit of a game right how it all plans out. You know, first first off we do this, then that, then this and that and then eventually we get to the point where okay, it's the point in their return they're gonna have to cave in. I think a few of the sort of rules and mechanisms have changed over time on that and yeah, just another sign of, of social media and stuff really.

Ayo Akimolere (42:14)

That brings me into my last one really on the survey. What would you change about the transfer window is a question that was, was out there and social media surely, I mean some might say it's added a bit more drama to maybe but in many respects also muddied the water sometimes for certain deals to happen. What do you think?

James Featherstone (42:31)

Look at the world we live in. There are, there are people gaining popularity and are living based on trading rumors or you know, being first or being correct or you know, so who'd have ever thought that that would be a viable way of making a living. So I think that shows the appetite that shows you that you know, fans want to be in the know and you know, I think it's almost, it's another, you know, obviously football is driven by winning and losing. I think it's another form of winning and losing. You know, if we're going to sign this player and you're not, then we're better than you and there's no relevance and nobody knows how it's going to impact results and number of points at the end of the season. But it's a in that moment, can.

Stu James (43:12)

That mess up a deal? You sometimes see fans saying that when it like something comes out and it's like that's going to end up screwing up that deal because it's come out on social media before, it's got maybe far enough down the line. Can that happen in some circumstances where a news or a transfer is leaked and it puts the kibosh on a.

James Featherstone (43:27)

Transfer you wouldn't believe managerial appointments, sign ins, you know, clubs will float on a forum or get somebody just to see the perception because nobody knows. Okay. When I'm in that vacuum of negotiating a contract, yeah, I'm going to have some data and I'm going to have, you know, real proof of concept of what value my client's going to bring to that football club. But I don't know. I have no idea. And hindsight is amazing and how transactions and contracts and signings, how they age is incredible. So to use that almost benefit of hindsight before actually committing, you can see why it goes on. Right. And you almost just take a little litmus test of the, of the consensus and you know, kind of how is this going to go down? Because there's no going back or there is, but it's bloody expensive. After you've the inks. The ink's dry. Right.

Ayo Akimolere (44:28)

Right. Before we go, I just want to know, once you take a day off, when do you like, genuinely like with your family? Because, you know us working in the industry, it feels like it just keeps going on and on. We've spoke about it, we've had the Premier League, then we had the Club World cup and then a couple of weeks we're back again in the Premier League. You're doing deals in between during those summer periods. When do you get time off?

James Featherstone (44:51)

You just asked about the length of the transfer window and honestly, when they closed it the other year before the first Thursday or the Thursday before the first game, that was amazing because at least I got some summer holidays with my family. Those days have gone and Europe kind of put paid to that. They just saw it as a way getting value. So, yeah, look, I think your job is to help and that support needs to be unconditional. So time is not something I long on, unfortunately. But equally, you know, it's important to be able to, you know, kind of put the ball away or put the phone away and, you know, kind of spend time with family or go and do something that's important. But it's tough. But then, like I said, never, ever shy away from admitting how much I love what I do. And you know, when you do love what you do, sometimes it doesn't feel like hard work.

Ayo Akimolere (45:37)

James, I really appreciate you joining us and Stuart as well. Thank you so much for being here as well and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with a preview with Matt Davis Adams.

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You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athlete Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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