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- [00:00]
Shopify Advertiser
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show, and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household name like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic Go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.
- [01:33]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title industry company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results terms and conditions apply.
- [02:03]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [02:06]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [02:08]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [02:15]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [02:23]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit credible experts.
- [02:26]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from Huckpost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I doing it Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:38]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Harry Kane's trophy drought is over and Harry Kane gets in on the action. Rightly so, but he's one Bundesliga trophy enough for the England captain. And is silverware the only marker of success. Here with us today we have our German football correspondent, Seb Stafford Blur. And our Arsenal writer, Art De Rocher. Right, Seb, let's start with you. Look, Harry Kane has finally got himself a trophy. This is wonderful news for a guy who's had a 16 year career with no silverware. I mean, look, it has really vindicated the reason that Bayern bought him, hasn't it?
- [03:27]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, absolutely. What they were pursuing is excellence, first class goalscorer, dependability. His goal scoring record in the Bundesliga is pretty much one of one. One goal to every one game. And yeah, I think it's kind of. Bayern Munich will always judge themselves on more than just winning Bundesligas. So there is more to do. And I think there is still in Germany, there is still criticism of Kane. There is still probably more focus on the chances he misses than there was when he was back in the Premier League. With Tottenham. I'd say it's a little bit more similar to the attitude that England fans have towards Kane during tournaments than it was the way Tottenham fans treated him. But it's a step in the right direction. And you know, in interviews recently, Kane has talked about this. He's got out from underneath this very, very tedious narrative about him not having won anything. Whereas if you look at his individual statist, his performances, what he's managed to accomplish, in spite of some of the limitations that were in place when he was at Tottenham, for instance, I think that transcends what you have on your mantelpiece.
- [04:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting though, because obviously he's come to Bayern a latter part of his career, but you know, there were times where he could have left Tottenham and you do feel like with all the effort and the gameplay, he offered Tottenham not just as a striker, as a. As a game changer in many respects. It would have been quite sweet to win it with that club as well.
- [04:49]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah. But I think Kane gave as much time to them as he possibly could have done. I think in the years since he's left, it's been clear that Tottenham are not, for one reason or another, this is obviously a different podcast. They're not really built to compete at the top of the Premier League at the moment, they don't spend as much money, certainly on wages that the teams are right at the top of the table. And he was constrained by the contract that he signed, so he only ended up leaving in the final year, just before the final year started. Sorry. So it was, yes, unfortunate in a way, but I think if you ask Kane, I think his preference would have been to do that. He came very, very close. Had, you know, one of the great sliding doors in moments in Tottenham's history is, you know, in 2018, 2019, if they heavily invest in the side in the way that, for instance, Liverpool did, do they have a different present? Probably. And does Kane have something to show for it? Probably, but it wasn't to be.
- [05:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Oh, how, how significant is it then, that need to win silverware, especially for individuals in a team. Look, we'll get into it deeper, but I think about Arsenal coming so close this season and you know, the journey some of those players have been with this team as well, and you know what they're thinking about at the end of the season, thinking, do you know what? We've left it empty handed once again.
- [06:04]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, I think it can be a really relative thing. That shouldn't kind of just be almost judged with a black and white viewpoint because as you mentioned, this Arsenal team, I think it'll probably be a bit more collective than most teams because a lot of those players have been through this journey together for three, four, five years almost, I'd say longer than they've been in title races since they've been out of Europe, basically. So I think a lot of those guys might want to be in it together and have that collective medal to show what they've done as a group. Players who have left have mostly left because they needed to leave rather than wanting to leave. But then when you look, I guess through history, I think you've got really different cases. You look at Steven Gerrard, I know he won other competitions like the Champions League, the FA cup, the League cup and the UEFA cup as well, for a Premier League, but not a Premier League. But he's still got that stand in because he stayed at Liverpool, I was about to say his whole career, but most of his career, and I think that's been brought up in recent weeks with the Trent Alexander Arnold situation, who's leaving despite having won two Premier Leagues. So I think it's really difficult to, I guess, assess with I guess a different viewpoint for every single player. I think it should be viewed as a very individual thing because I don't think every shoe kind of fits everyone, if that makes sense.
- [07:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I was just thinking how much something like social media, even now, even me as a professional, fuels the banter mill. Harry Kane hasn't watched a trophy, you know, or Harry Kane's won a trophy before. Tottenham have won a trophy. You know, this kind of stuff around, you know, the hype around winning trophies for players, I mean, look, you know, dependent on where you are as a player, you might sign for a team hoping for the best, but circumstances prevail that your time with that team means that you don't actually win something. It is still a professional sport nevertheless. But social media can add a bit more of a fire to these conversations.
- [08:07]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, no, I can confirm that you're a terrible troll on social media. Follow you on, on pretty much every platform and that is who you are. Yes. No, you're right though. And I think it's a, I think social Media, in about 10, 15 years, I think people will, somebody smart will write something about the impact social media had on the professional game and the way that it conditioned us to think about how, not just in football, but you know, how athletes behave, how they perform, what they do and don't do, what they sort of, you know, their legacies are. And there's no doubt that. I think if you forgetting just the trophy aspect of Kane's career, which he's always been pelted with and it's been a kind of, it's low hanging fruit, isn't it? It's a quick way of making a snarky point that will be retweeted by the fans of 19 other Premier League teams and you know, get you 10 more followers, well done, etc. But I think Kane's always had this. I remember when Kane first came through at Spurs, I thought he was rubbish. I remember he would kind of get these periodic appearances in sort of unimportant European games or in kind of very low stakes League cup games. There just wasn't much there. People who knew better than me told me otherwise. Sure. But I think there are a lot of people like me who sort of this guy, he's not quick enough. He's not. None of his attributes stand out at the moment. And kind of you can go along with the social media crowd being like, yeah, let's, let's find that, that, you know, that 25 year old forward, he's worth 50 million. Let's not, you know, let's not waste our time developing this kid. He's, he's about to go on his millionth loan to somewhere else. And he hasn't got a goal scoring record ratio, which is impressive. And so I think this energy has surrounded Kane, particularly, especially those entire career, he's always been battling something. You're not good enough, you're not quick enough, you're not skillful enough, you haven't won enough, you don't score goals when they matter. You only score this kind of goal. It's relentless. And I think this has become. He's a very good example of it. But I think it's something that surrounds every athlete now and it's among the biggest challenges they face. It used to be kind of paparazzi hiding in bushes when they go out for a meal with their wives or, you know, their parents or whatever. Now it's a million people telling them they're rubbish all the time. And I think it's a kind of. I can't relate to it and I don't think any of us can. It's completely unreachable. But it's a. It's a very, very interesting topic and we're not even close to really understanding it properly, I don't think.
- [10:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I'm just looking at this sort of slightly different generational conversation. You're much younger than I am, and Seb as well, but, like, let's just.
- [10:28]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Say younger, not much younger. It was.
- [10:33]
Art De Rocher
It wasn't me that said it need to do that.
- [10:35]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
You didn't need to.
- [10:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Except, weirdly, I think we're the same age, so we're roughly about the same age.
- [10:40]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
He's younger than us. That's fine, he's younger than us.
- [10:43]
Ayo Akimolere
But, you know, social media is omnipresent, really, in all our lives now. But, like, you know, there was a time where a lot of these conversations were restricted to the school playground, where people are just like, your team's crap. Your team's this or that or whatever. Now, on social media, you've also got the ability to pick any facts and stats to back up your argument. You know, this idea that, you know, I'm only using Tottenham because it's just such an easy example as we talk about Harry Kane, you know, Tottenham haven't won a trophy now Harry Kane's now won a trophy. Harry Kane hasn't scored in so many games, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it just sort of fuels this cauldron of banter. But also, Seb makes a really interesting point. People are also looking for clout. And, you know, you might just say stuff just for clout, not because you mean it. But it's clout. But inevitably that will filter its way to the player in some way, shape or form.
- [11:28]
Art De Rocher
Yeah. I think what's probably not helped is, and I don't know if this is going too deep, but the Twitter blue kind of creation in recent years, where you get paid for how many engagements you get, and that, I think that feeds into it, because then what's going to get you clicks is probably the most, I guess, extreme tweets or tweets that most people just find funny and get behind, which sometimes are the ones that are just taking the mick out of players. So I think that probably fuels a lot of what's on Twitter now, especially. But when you look at how social media, media has grown, I think I first created a Twitter account when I was 14, still in school, and at that time, you were just kind of following your friends. You would make jokes with your friends. But then as social media has grown, as more people get on it, the communities become a lot bigger. And I think that just amplifies everything. So whether it's you're using Twitter just to have fun and not actually take the mick out of players, or you are, I think everything just becomes a bit more amplified with how big it's gotten. And then, as you say, the players, even if they say they don't try and I guess read that stuff, they'll get sent it by their friends. I'm not going to say, like who. But players do get sent negative things about them, whether it's articles or tweets by people around them, and it's almost impossible for them to block it out. So it is a really kind of dangerous cycle to get in.
- [13:03]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure. And with that, though, Seb, let's bring this back to Harry Kane, but I know. So the business of football. I'm just thinking about the significance of what he's. He's done with Bayern Munich this season. You know, after the Leverkusen season last year, you know, Leverkusen piping them to the post. And I wouldn't say. And I read your piece on Harry Kane, I wouldn't necessarily say that Bayern are back to their fighting best, but they have still picked up a Bundesliga trophy. They have still spent a lot of money on a striker to bring them that. And actually that's pretty decent news for them.
- [13:38]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, there's a couple of different threads to bring together. Like, I think people who don't follow German football will always see Bayern Munich as what they've been for a very long time. In reality, for a couple of years before they lost the title to Leverkusen, they were in decline. And if you look at the points tally, the declining points tally since about 2020, that shows kind of the aging of the team, the fact that there were some really important players sold and not replaced. Javi Martinez is probably chief amongst those. He was such an important player and never replaced. They allowed hugely important areas of the p the decay. There were some very, very big contracts they'd been able to move. And so when, when Kane joined in 2023, he joined the club indecline where they're almost. And this is going to sound a little bit weird, they were in a transitional period really between the era they were just leaving and the one that they hoped to begin, and they're still kind of there now. And so the way I look at Kane's career is you can view it in the sort of stat padding sense. Yes. As a Bayern MUK centre forward, you are going to score a lot of goals against Hinkiel and Darmstadt and Bochum and et cetera, et cetera. That' one thing to note there is that. And I remember speaking to Mario Gomez just after Kane signed, who has played centre forward with Bayern, he said, being center forward here is not about scoring goals, it's about dealing with the fact that when you score two, people say, why didn't you score three? And they will always focus on what you haven't done, the chance you've missed, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think what Kane's done really well is one, he's embraced Bavarian life, which was quite a weird concept when he first moved across because of all the. He's not a. He doesn't come across a hugely cosmopolitan person and yet he's adapted really well. He's very well liked, he's made an effort locally, but he's also been a lot of different things to this team. So his goals, yes, but he's also. He's brought over his playmaking abilities. He's been able to stitch together quite a few parts of a team which at times hasn't actually made a lot of sense and is dealing with quite a few flaws, whether people recognise it or not. And of course, within the context of the Bundesliga, Bayern's financial and technical strength makes it very, very difficult to see where the weaknesses are. But I think in European competition that's been a little bit more evident and Kane has had to cope with that. So he's been stretched pretty thin and I'm not sure what the term is for that kind of player because he's not playing in the Lewandowski era, where Bayern are just hugely, hugely impressive and dominant, and yet he's still managed to be very successful. And I think that's a really, really important context which can often get missed here.
- [16:01]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, for sure. Right. Let's move on because next we'll look at which clubs are most in need of success this season.
- [16:08]
Podcast Host
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. akamolera.
- [16:14]
Shopify Advertiser
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger, and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic Go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.
- [17:47]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title industry company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started@LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply.
- [18:17]
Raj Panjabi
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [18:19]
Noah Michaelson
And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost.
- [18:22]
Raj Panjabi
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [18:29]
Noah Michaelson
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [18:37]
Raj Panjabi
And we're talking like legit, credible experts.
- [18:40]
Noah Michaelson
Doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts right.
- [18:55]
Ayo Akimolere
Arsenal currently sit second in the Premier League, but have gone five seasons without a trophy. Manchester City have relinquished their Premier League title, yet still could win an FA cup, and Manchester United and Tottenham sit 16th and 17th respectively, but are through to the Europa League final with a place in next season's Champions League up for grabs. I mean, that all just says this has been a bonkers season in the Premier League. But you know which one of those, in your opinion, has had or potentially could have the most successful season?
- [19:29]
Art De Rocher
So I saw the script and I thought about it and you've read it out and I'm thinking about it and I still don't know if I can bring myself to say any of those teams being totally honest. And I think that's fine. I hope it's fine, because when you look at the Europa League final, those are the two worst Premier League teams of the season. I'm not counting the teams that are getting relegated because straight up, straight down, Manchester City, by their standards, this hasn't been a successful season. Even if they win the FA Cup, I don't think Pep Guardiola would label it as a successful season. It'll be very good for them to kind of have a trophy again after the decline in the winter months. But I think when you look at the season as a whole, it's not a success. And Arsenal, Mikhail himself admitted this season hasn't been a forward step, if anything has been a backwards one, except for what they've done in the Champions League, which was an obvious step forward. So I think none of those teams can really say the 2425 campaign has been a success. And I don't want to want that to seem like I'm dodging the question. But I just think realistically I wouldn't put success on any of those teams.
- [20:45]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Can I jump in? Because, I mean, you guys are Arsenal fans and so you can't say this. I think you're being quite harsh in Your own team. I think second place in the Champions League semi final is a really decent return. I think perhaps where Arsenal have fallen down is, for whatever reason, expectations have been set a little bit higher than they probably should have been. And perhaps what this group of players is capable of has been not exaggerated, but embellished a bit. Because I look at kind of the teams they've competed with over the last couple of years and I think, well, player for player, they weren't a match for Manchester City. And I think Liverpool have the best player in the country for me and Mohamed Salah. I think they have the best centre back in Bergman van Dijk. I think they've got a better goalkeeper. They're both very talented goalkeepers. I would pick Alisson as we don't need to do that, but. So my point is, is that like, if I'm. If I'm looking at a kind of. One of the big issues that these teams have had, particularly Manchester United and Tottenham, is balancing domestic ambition and ambition not in capital letters in those two cases, with what they've tried to do in Europe. And certainly one of the reasons why those two teams are in the Europa League final is because they've basically thrown the Premier League. They look at their Premier League games, they're just nonsense. Whereas Arsenal, okay, they've dropped off and they haven't really been in contention for quite some time now. But I still think that's a pretty decent turn given the injuries to Havertz and Gabriel Jesus and, you know, he's back now, but Bukayo Saka during the middle of the season was a huge loss, of course, and Odegaard was missing during the autumn and there have been issues. Ben White, he was gone for a bit, and Califuri. So I think relatively speaking, that that's at least par. No for a season.
- [22:24]
Art De Rocher
What I meant by that wasn't that I didn't want to dismiss all the context you just gave, but I think when you're looking at it from a black and white point of view, then you can't really say it is success. I think when you look at everything they've had to deal with this season and you include the suspensions within the injury stuff that Seb just laid out then, I think, as he said, they have done actually quite well for what they faced. But I couldn't bring myself to say it was a success. And I think when a couple of weeks ago, Mikhail Taylor was talking at a press conference and he said success and failure aren't words that are in his Vocabulary. And that's kind of.
- [23:07]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
What does that mean? Like, what. What does that mean?
- [23:10]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, in the moment, it was like. It seemed like a very defensive comment, so I. I actually was like, well, what words are in your vocabulary?
- [23:18]
Unknown Speaker
And he said, assess what we do and what we are doing is something that we merit or is happening by luck or is happening and understand the reasons why we. Why we do it and what happens today doesn' that the same process, the thing that is good is going to be good tomorrow either. So don't get carried away with that and don't get too critical or too low when something doesn't go your way, because we could easily be in that final and then what? Doing exactly the same thing with those stats. You could be in the Champions League final and then what? So now, because, you know, you have to think differently, I says it's. It's too simplistic. We cannot work that way because this is what is to all the time.
- [23:58]
Art De Rocher
Which kind of made it a bit easier for me to put into perspective, if that makes sense.
- [24:03]
Ayo Akimolere
But what does that put Tottenham, then, Seb? I mean, look, I'm just trying to rationalize it in my head because you could make the argument that, you know, regardless of where Manchester United are right now, they've been bits of silverware over the last few years. For them. Right. I mean, for spurs, regardless of where they are in a league right now, this is a monumental moment. You know, if they do lift a European trophy, considering the drought that has been over the years for a major trophy, surely that can be seen as a. Yeah, man. Finally, we've done it. Our league position's not that great. We're not quite sure about this team, but they've pulled together and they've brought us history.
- [24:43]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:44]
Art De Rocher
Now, the spurs fans, I'm being serious.
- [24:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Because it does fudge over a lot.
- [24:50]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
It does.
- [24:50]
Ayo Akimolere
And it's what's happening in the background, because it's still massive silverware and it's something the club. Daniel Levy in the PR level could be like, finally, here we go, We've got it. We've got a new stadium, We've got a trophy.
- [25:00]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah. I think there's a different. There's a few different ways of answering that, because it's a really good question and there's a complicated answer.
- [25:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Like, of course I know there's no straight answer.
- [25:07]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
No. But in one sense, you're absolutely right. Like winning a trophy. I'm 40 years old. I was in my early 20s the last time. Spurs 1A. I had a full head of hair, you know, like, I was two stone lighter. These are great days. These are great days in 2008.
- [25:25]
Ayo Akimolere
But then, look what I mean. And then this is it.
- [25:27]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
This is what a lifetime of spurs will do to you. But then I think, like. And it will be a wonderful moment, no doubt. But then I suppose what you're really asking is what becomes of that moment? Is it just a kind of, you know, a day out on Tottenham High Road with a trophy, or does it become something else? Because, of course, the way that people discuss Europa League now is as a backdoor to the Champions League. And that's fine. But if you're really to go through the looking glass, what does that mean for Tottenham? Because are their processes good enough to take advantage of that? Is next season better as a result of it, or is it just another case of under. Prepare a squad, put them through the exertion of playing in multiple competitions. They're not going to win the Champions League. It's not going to happen. Is the manager still going to be the manager? Like, it doesn't answer any of the questions I think a lot of the spurs fans would be asking. In addition to which, when that new stadium was built, that was the game changer, according to the club. That was the thing that was going to change everything. And yet a couple of weeks ago, when the latest batch of financial results came out, you know, there's all sorts of warnings about, well, we're not playing European football next season. Reason probably so not gonna be any money and, you know, sell before you buy. And so the lesson I take, and I kind of like was. Was jokingly digging asked about this is, I think sort of football fandom now is about, how do you feel at the time he mentioned this about Arteta, I think Arteta makes a good point, whether he intended to or not, which is that, how does it feel? Not what's going to happen in 18 months, because that's exhausting, right? Who cares? It's not like football never works out like that. How do you feel the day before a game? Are you really excited about going to the game and watching it, or if you can't get to it? You know, I was gonna say listening to it on the radio and show my age again, but it's that, right? And so, yeah, it's a success. It'll be something that I remember, you know, in 2008 when Spurs League form, like, it was dreadful after that League cup win over Chelsea. I don't remember any of it. I remember it being bad, but I don't care about any of it. I just remember the day and I remember getting absolutely hammered on the train back towards Bristol from London. I wasn't the game, but I was in London. And that's what you take with you. But in terms of tomorrow, I don't know. I can't guess at that.
- [27:32]
Art De Rocher
On the. On the feeling thing, I think it's so. It's such a good point because when I look at it from an Arsenal perspective, I guess some of my fondest, I guess years following Arsenal were the Wenger years that everyone kind of takes the mick out of because the football was good, the football was entertaining and that kind of formed a lot of my opinions and thoughts on how football should be played. And I think it did the same for a lot of people around my generation. But then. And if you look at it from the perspective of a different club and take Wigan, when they won the FA Cup, I think that's probably. I don't know, I can't speak for Wigan fans, but I'd assume it's one of the fondest memories they ever had.
- [28:15]
Ayo Akimolere
In their club's history.
- [28:16]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, and it would be completely different when you ask an Arsenal fan about it, I think. But then you've got Crystal palace in the FA cup final this year. And I think, well, speaking as a South London Arsenal fan, I'd actually be really, really pleased if they won it it this season. So I think it's so relative to that feeling that Seb spoke about.
- [28:40]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
So I live in Germany and on Saturday night I was in the Volkspark Stallion to see Hamburg complete their promotion. They've got relegated seven years ago. Last seven years they failed in all sorts of hilarious ways, which it's kind of ties what we've been talking about together, which social media has had, has got great mileage out of. And this is a Club that a five time national champion, they've won the European cup in 1983 and we're talking about getting promoted just to the top level of German football. Honestly, it is one of the most amazing nights of football I've ever been at and one of the loudest stadium experiences I've ever had. And people have seen a lot of the pictures from Hamburg and the pitch invasion, all that kind of stuff. But in terms of what happens next doesn't matter. Maybe they struggle, maybe they get relegated straight away next season it's very possible because there's a lot of rebuilding. But in that moment, then whatever, tomorrow can wait, right? And I think that's a better way to go through life, certainly as a football fan, than are we going to get all the decisions we need to make in the summer? Right? Are we going to compete with that club that's got the infinite source of money that never runs out? That's not much of a hobby anymore, is it? That's just more reason to worry as you get older.
- [29:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, you're absolutely spot on. Well, this actually brings me up nicely to our next part. Really? Because next, if it's not all about trophies, what are the other markers of success?
- [30:05]
Podcast Host
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamwalere.
- [30:11]
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Raj Panjabi
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- [32:08]
Podcast Host
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO a.
- [32:18]
Ayo Akimolere
Two six seven for Spurs 200 in the Premier League. Huge landmarks for Harry Kane. Yeah, I mean, we have to circle back to Harry Kane said, you know, prior to his move to Bayern Munich, he became Tottenham Hotspur's all time leading goal scorer. While he never actually won a trophy with spurs, he'll always be remembered. I mean, I'm not saying he's got to get a statue necessarily, but I mean, what he did for spurs will be remembered in a monumental way.
- [32:48]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
He's the club's record goalscorer. Harry Kane reordered the club's immortals. If you said at the beginning of Harry Kane's career, we're going to be putting you ahead of Jimmy Greaves by the time you finish, that's an amazing accomplishment. And we spent a lot of podcasts, a lot of the podcast here talking about moments. Now, some of my happiest moments are of Harry Kane scoring goals or helping the team score goals, or I always think of him and the North London Derby. That goal in 2015, which was, it felt very, very big at the time. And in 2016 with the goal against Arsenal down in the corner at White Hart Lane, here is Harry Kane for Tottenham.
- [33:28]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Oh, what a goal.
- [33:30]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
A classic derby goal from Harry Kane. Catch him if you can. I've got friends who are in the stadium that day who think they passed out during that moment. No, no, genuinely, they say, like it was a sort of, it was a kind of otherworldly experience and they left their body. And can you imagine, right, if one of us, like produced a bit of audio content or wrote an article which, which caused that response from someone, they called you up and said, that is one of the top 10 best moments of my life. That, that 800 words you wrote. Right, Go. Could you imagine you'd have that carved on your gravestone.
- [34:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah.
- [34:06]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Amazing. That's success, right? You've, you've, you've, you've impacted a fan's life. Because for all the players that come through your football club and through the game, there are very few that do that. And he's definitely among them. And he's definitely among them. And when times come past and people forget the Bayern Munich thing and the acrimony, you know, between the club and all that stuff, that will be the thing that everyone has left with.
- [34:31]
Ayo Akimolere
I think, I think you're right and I just want to put myself in his shoes if I can and just look at what he would class as success in many respects. Countless England caps as well would be in his cabinet. Countless Golden Boot trophies will be in his cabinet. And he's obviously got the Bundesliga as well. And actually, we forget football is not just about those things. You've got those personal milestones that a lot of players, for some players just even playing for their national team is massive, you know, in that respect. Right, right. Let's. Let's talk about Mikel Arteta as well. You know, I know you might say this season might not have been a success in many respects, but you know, we also have to talk about the transformation of culture. You talk about the Wenger years and what it felt like that transition. We forget about Unai Emery's time at Arsenal and what the players Mikel Arteta's brought in and taken out of this club as well. But also I think about last season at being at the Emirates and thinking when we played Manchester United and it was a tough game and Arsenal snatched it, and the elation and the beautiful football and the drive the team had in many respects, and actually bringing that good feeling factor back to a club where the fans believe they're able to, to win things potentially. You know, let's not forget he started his tenure with a, with an FA cup win, which is actually often forgotten as well.
- [35:46]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, I think so. When it comes to the trophy element, that's an example of what a trophy can do because that put Arsenal back into the Europa League at the time, gave them a bit more spending money. They bought Gabriel, I think was the first big, big signing, around 30 million. And they also bought Thomas Partey release from Atletico Madrid. So those are the first two big signings. And then that season itself wasn't a success. There was like that period in the winter when I think they went seven games without a Premier League win. But the FA cup win actually gave Arteta a bit of credit to work with. And then I guess what you're talking about before resetting the culture, the time that takes. And actually, I think one thing that Arteta has spoken about is making these games later in the season purposeful. And that's what he's been able to do with his staff, with the players that have bought in five, six years ago. And I think that's where you can measure, I guess, the success of the club's ambition, a word that Seb used earlier. You could see the ambitions being there from the start and they've followed through with most of it. The only thing that's really been missing is more silverware, which can fluctuate very, I guess for very different reasons. So, yeah, I think when you look at that belief, that purpose, it's there. And I think that's a really strong indicator of, I guess, what success meant for Arsenal when Arteta joined and where they are now.
- [37:25]
Ayo Akimolere
How big is legacy? And I'll throw this to you first, Seb, and please follow on because, you know, when Phil Hayes on, he often talks about what Bielsa did for Leeds and how beautiful that was in the style of football. And, you know, the. The optimism that were there was in Leeds and, you know, if we use Arsene Wenger, obviously the, the first part of Arsene Wenger's tenure, the Invincibles, and then obviously the back end was a bit different. But I think about the legacy he left at Arsenal in terms of transforming the way people viewed Arsenal as a team, the style of play as well. Mikel Arteta leaves without a trophy. I think there will still be a. Do the cap to a. A coach what he did for the club, even though they might have got close and never really got over the line. How big is legacy in your opinion, Sid?
- [38:06]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
It's really, really big. I mean, I. I'm gonna take off my journalism hat and put on my fan hat and say, you know, like, it's a good thing that I don't like Mikel Arteta when I. When I'm sat watching the football. I don't like him because he's made Arsenal better and he's spiky and aggressive and he. He never, you know, stays in his. But he's changed Arsenal from being. I don't want to indulge the cliche and talk about soft touch and a bit weak because that's just a bit lazy. But Arsenal were easy to beat and you couldn't rely on them. Now you know that they're never going to go away and they didn't even against PSG in that Champions League semi final. What I say about legacy, though, I think it's really, really important what happens afterwards. So Arteta's kind of binary relation in Tottenham is obviously Maurizio Pochettino, who turned.
- [38:56]
Ayo Akimolere
I was going to ask about that.
- [38:57]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, this is the thing because that was a wonderful time. And I think a lot of. If you search back through Pochettino's interviews, he talks about changing the perception of spurs and there's an Eric Dyer interview where he talks about. Oh, you know, he was talking about how you get the occasional pundit who has a Bit of a giggle about spurs on sky or whatever and he was like, I don't like it. And this was great because you felt like the team were raging against it. But then, then when the era fell apart, the club didn't build on it and so everything just resets. And I think say Mikel Arteta walks out of Arsenal tomorrow and he's only got that one FA cup to show for it. You still have this amazing platform and a club full of players who are extremely valuable. I'm not quite sure what the club finances are, but certainly a platform, a couple of years of Champions League revenue where you can go and then really attack the summit of the game in a way that that spurs after Porch unit definitely didn't do. And that's kind of, you know, I suppose that's the way you look at it. You know, you look at sort of someone creating that opportunity or you kind of end up looking wistfully back at it and the legacy is it becomes tainted with this, what we might have done differently. So it's a bit of a double edged sword. But yeah, clearly Arteta has changed Arsenal's present in a way that no coach since Wenger has done.
- [40:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. And I think on an individual level, I was just thinking about Pochettino and, and you know, Arteta to a certain degree. Yeah, Pochettino didn't win with Tottenham in that way. Got to a Champions League final, which is incredible. Like, you know, but also for Arteta, if he does leave next week, you know, the reality is because of what they've done at those respective clubs, they are going to be coveted managers. Moving on to take Arsenal to a Champions League semi final. To take Tottenham to a Champions League final.
- [40:41]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Hey, hey. Without Harry Kane, with Harry Wings in Lucas, Ahsoka in central midfield.
- [40:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Think about that. It was really impressive. And you got to look at that in terms of their CV and where they go on next because they've used that time to create something truly special at these clubs.
- [40:55]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, well, when you look at it especially, I guess more so actually for players and managers, what you're doing is about you at the end of the day. Even though I guess you can talk the game and say how much you love a club and stuff like that, you're still going to have your personal pride, your personal ego and I don't know, it might be a full circle moment that I'm bringing up Vincent Kompany now, but I look at his time at Burnley and you win promotion with, I think it was 100 points playing that style of football and he did not move away from it in the Premier League. And Seb will know more about the ins and outs of him going to Bayern than I would. But it seemed like he was very much about brand Vincent Kompi company and that seemed like it helped him get such a good job in Bayern Munich. So I think it's not just looking at, I guess, managers at Arsenal and Tottenham, but across the game and seeing how, I guess the way they talk, the way they play, the way they kind of set up all their dynamics is about pushing themselves forward as well as the clubs that they're at.
- [42:02]
Ayo Akimolere
That's a really interesting one on Kompany and I guess he would say the buying job is probably one of the most coveted jobs in world football. Winning the Bundesliga is huge for his city cv. Taking Burnley to the Premier League is huge for his cv, don't you think? Tip?
- [42:18]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Absolutely. I mean, the Bayern thing, I think it's interesting if you, if you invert it and say, what happens if you don't do those things. I remember like after the Champions League win over Bayer Leverkusen when they won 5 nil, I remember writing, this is a really big moment for him, for Kane, for everybody. And people like, ah, yeah, but it's just Bayer Leverkusen. It's like, well, yeah, this is, this is, this is a team that went unbeaten in Germany last year. But also think of it in this way, if you, if Kompany and Bayern get eliminated by Bayer Leverkusen in the Champions League and then what happens to his job security after that? Because in those occasions there are no small Bayern Munich games. I mean, I know a little bit about what appealed to Bayern Munich & Co. And the brand company thing is not relevant. But it's also like they saw someone that could communicate properly with players and maximize potential. That exists in addressing them. And that's success too, right? In you have this kind of crop of young players, then you're delivering them into kind of superstardom potentially. And so, yeah, a huge, huge, big deal.
- [43:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's finish on this one because you know, in that question as whether or not trophies do mean success. Erik Ten Hag's an interesting one, guys. Having won trophies with Manchester United wasn't enough for him to keep his job in many respects. But also has he left Manchester United as a manager? That's hot on the lips of, you know, a lot of teams, for instance. And know there have been conversations about him being linked to the Leverkusen job, for instance. But where do we stand with something like that because he has won trophies.
- [43:48]
Art De Rocher
I'll let Sev go first.
- [43:50]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Possible pass. Thank you.
- [43:54]
Ayo Akimolere
Good pass. Good. Good pass.
- [43:56]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I, I, I think 10 Hag is a really complicated issue because I, I think we learn more about Manchester United all the time and certainly since 2013 there have been times where the recruitment's not been good enough, the infrastructure has not been good enough, the noise around the club has been incredibly helpful. I always think to play for Manchester United during this era has got to be just terrible at times. When it's great, I'm sure it's great. When it's bad, it's got to be absolutely awful to kind of cope with that level of fandom just because of how popular and successful the club have been in the past. And so I don't really know the scale of 10 Hag's achievement at man United or what, in the same way that I think we've all looked back on Olegard and Solskjaer's time in a little bit of a different way too, and Louis Van Hals as well. And you know, all of these coaches have flaws, all of them have deficiencies. But we're now on to the next with Reuben Amarim. And you know, Reuben Amarim was as successful as a Sporting Club coach could possibly be. He created a brilliant team. A lot of English clubs saw him how good they were in Europe, so I don't know. But what I do know is he remains highly regarded throughout the game, which tells you that kind of people are willing to overlook whatever was wrong there for whatever reason. People who are far, far smarter than me. So maybe I'll be led by that.
- [45:13]
Art De Rocher
Yeah, I think that's probably the right way to look at it. And I'd also say it probably depends on the fit as well. Clubs and managers can probably suit each other better than others. And I think you've seen some say if you look at David Moyes and how he just came back into Everton and transformed them, that was a perfect marriage. And there probably are clubs out there that are like that for 10 hag. I don't personally know who those clubs are, but you can't just, I guess, fully write off a manager because they didn't succeed. And I guess the, the best case of Arsenal and Zunai Emery, a person you mentioned earlier, IO who, who is a really good coach, came to Arsenal with a really strong CV from his time in Spain with Valencia, Sevilla and then France with psg. But he just wasn't the right fit. I think he was too big of a change from a wenger type manager too soon. And if we look at it with hindsight, probably maybe was the buffer that was needed before Arteta came in. Because Arteta is not a wenger type manager. He's very different. But but there was a little bit of a teething period with Emery that maybe would have smoothed over a few things. And now Emery's got Aston Villa into Europe for a third season in a row. So I think you see all the time that just because a manager gets sacked or something like that, it doesn't mean he's a bad manager. Maybe it just meant the club he is at wasn't the right fit.
- [46:47]
Ayo Akimolere
Oh Jed, I could sit and talk about this all day. I really enjoyed that. Thanks Seb and also Art for your insight and also thank you guys for listening as well. Matt Davis Adams will be with you tomorrow. Looking ahead to Saturday's FA Cup Final Crystal Palace. Could they actually do it?
- [47:05]
Podcast Host
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavro and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aiden Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [47:25]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [47:33]
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- [47:48]
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