What is the hardest job in football?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast (Feb 19, 2026)

Episode Theme: What is the hardest job in football?
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Jack Pitt-Brooke, Thomas Hill-Lopez Manchero, Carl Anka

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Ayo Akinwolere and guest panelists explore a thorny question: With so many elite clubs potentially in the market for new managers this summer, what is truly the hardest job in football? The conversation weaves through managerial challenges at clubs like Real Madrid, Manchester United, Tottenham, AC Milan, and Chelsea, as well as international giants such as Brazil and England. The panelists consider expectations, historical weight, club politics, style of play, ownership dynamics, and the evolution of the "hardest" jobs in the sport.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Real Madrid – The Ultimate Coaching Cauldron

(02:24 - 04:56)

• Pressure Cooker Environment:
  • Managing at Real Madrid means not only dealing with “a president upstairs who you know is known for being pretty fickle”, but also a restless fanbase, a stadium packed with history, and a squad of superstars (Thomas, 02:24).
  • The role is “much more…ambassadorial” than a pure coaching job (Ayo, 03:09).
• Coaching Profile:
  • Success often stems more from “soft skills and the ability to bring all those things together” than tactical innovation. Few cutting-edge coaches have survived Madrid’s unique ecosystem (Thomas, 03:26).
• Managing Egos:
  • It is an outlier because managing “galactico power,” with big stars often being less flexible, demands a rare kind of manager: “The most successful Real Madrid managers…tend to already have won a Champions League somewhere else or have a deep playing history at Real Madrid” (Carl, 05:13).
  • Not every manager can handle star players unwilling to track back—“The problem with Real Madrid is they nearly always have two players [like this]…trying to get those [types] to fit in is going to be next to impossible” (Carl, 08:33).

Historic Weight and Club DNA

(09:07 - 11:40)

• The Burden of Success:
  • Clubs with “a lot of historical baggage”—like Madrid or Manchester United—are among the hardest to manage because “bigger clubs can just be a bit unwieldy” and are harder to turn around (Jack, 09:30).
  • Madrid is unique for thriving “despite—or maybe because of—having a lot of this historical baggage” (Jack, 09:30).
• Relative Lack of Managerial Icons:
  • “The coach really isn’t the most important person at Madrid…when you know that from the off, that makes your job even more difficult” (Thomas, 11:40).

Style of Play and Club Identity

(16:19 - 18:44)

• Fan Expectation vs. Reality:
  • At Tottenham, Thomas Frank struggled “because what the fans expected wasn’t necessarily what they saw on the field…so when results started to go south, he had no credit in the bank” (Jack, 16:49).
  • Manchester United’s “way” is less codified than clubs like Ajax or Barcelona; “it’s more folklore than let’s set a codified rule” (Carl, 20:46).

Financial Limitations & Churn – The Milan and Serie A Challenge

(21:32 - 25:28)

• “It’s very difficult being that level of club now because you can’t really build anything…a good young player gets picked off by a richer club quicker than ever before. So you’re always going to be quite transitory”—Milan’s style of play is often sacrificed for survival (Jack, 21:54).
• In Serie A, “the churn can be a good thing and a bad thing…if you churn well enough…you can have a good run,” but it hinders building consistent success, especially in Europe (Carl, 25:28).

Ownership Turbulence & Managerial Instability

(27:47 - 32:19)

• Chelsea’s Frequent Changes:
  • “Chelsea have…changed managers really often. Now it’s kind of accepted that managers simply won’t get that long in the job” (Jack, 28:24).
  • Even with instability, past strong player “dressing rooms” were key to continued success (Carl, 29:54).
• Unique Cases:
  • Thomas Tuchel’s career is highlighted as a case study—he “falls out with those above him,” but given his employers (Dortmund amid chaos, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern), “he seems uniquely good-ish at managing upwards” (Carl, 29:54).

The Unique Grind of International Jobs

(34:03 - 36:23)

• For top managers like Ancelotti and Tuchel, international management is “a different dynamic, a different vibe”; the “slightly slower pace” and “building toward big tournaments” is attractive after surviving the club grind (Jack, 32:19).
• Brazil & England:
  • Brazil’s coaching job is “so difficult” because expectations from over 210 million fans are unrelenting despite a less-talented crop than in past eras (Thomas, 34:47).
  • The pressure is unique, with comparisons only to Argentina (Thomas, 34:47); expectations far exceed what is reasonable with the current player pool.

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Memorable Quotes

• On Real Madrid’s Unique Demands
  “You're managing not just a president upstairs who you know is known for being pretty fickle, but a fan base who are fickle as well... and massive stars. I think that's the main thing, the galactico power that comes with managing Madrid.”
  — Thomas, (02:24)

• On Manchester United’s Modern Dilemma
  “It's one thing when you're in charge of these super clubs. I often describe them a bit like Formula One cars, where the slightest twitch or the slightest bubble can send you flying off track at 300 miles an hour.”
  — Carl, (05:13)

• On Club Historical Baggage
  "I think... being a really big, historic club can make life harder rather than easier... Bigger clubs can just be a bit unwieldy. It can just be a bit harder to turn the ship around."
  — Jack, (09:30)

• On the Weight of the Brazil Job
  “There's the pressure of 210 million people, as we say, as we just said there is, is huge and that's particularly concentrated in South America, of course.”
  — Thomas, (40:28)

• On Spurs’ Managerial Paradox
  "...If you're the Spurs manager, yes, there is an expectation of playing entertaining football, but also that doesn't necessarily link up with winning football..."
  — Carl, (38:23)

• On Managerial Job Security
  “The fact is it's so out of your control. Like you can't, you know, you don't know what jobs are going to come up, you don't know how long you're going to last... So I just think that you can't, I think a lot of managers will probably look at that and think, well, maybe I... can't kind of plan my future career path in club football in quite the way that I might have wanted to.”
  — Jack, (33:30)

• On Manchester United’s Permanent State of Crisis
  “When was the last time Manchester United didn’t play a must-win game? Every game is a must-win game.”
  — Carl, (37:33)

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Panelists’ Top 3 Hardest Coaching Jobs

(36:23 - 41:36)

Jack Pitt-Brooke

1. Barcelona – Massive public pressure, financial woes, stylistic expectations
2. Manchester United – History, instability, pressure to marry style and results
3. Arsenal – Long title drought, big expectations, talented but unfulfilled squad

Carl Anka

1. Manchester United – “Every game is a must-win game” shadow of Sir Alex Ferguson
2. Brazil National Team – Global expectations with a transforming player base
3. Tottenham Hotspur – Need for entertaining football despite lesser resources; paradoxical demands

Thomas Hill-Lopez Manchero

1. Real Madrid – Results, style, and politics with little managerial latitude
2. Brazil – Inescapable and intense public & national pressure
3. Manchester United – External scrutiny and impossible historical standards

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Other Notable Points

• The Impact of Changing Ownership Models:
  • Frequent manager turnover, as seen at Chelsea and Watford, highlights how club structure and ownership churn can add to the difficulty level of the manager’s job.
• Contrast Between Club & International Football:
  • International management, once seen as a retirement post, now appeals more to established managers worn out by club politics and schedule.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Real Madrid Discussion – 02:24–05:13
• Manchester United’s Unique Challenges – 05:13–08:33
• Club DNA and Style – 16:19–18:44
• AC Milan and Serie A Struggles – 21:32–25:27
• Chelsea’s Managerial Churn and Ownership – 27:47–32:19
• International Management (England, Brazil) – 34:03–36:23
• Top 3 Hardest Jobs (Roundtable & Explanations) – 36:23–41:36

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Conclusion

The episode is a rich, wide-ranging look at the minefield that is elite football management, contrasting the glamour of top jobs with their nearly-impossible expectations and constant pressures. For anyone curious about “the hardest job in football,” this is a nuanced, insider view with plenty of memorable anecdotes and sharp analysis from The Athletic’s best.

Transcript

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[Ayo Akimolere]

Foreign. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. With so many clubs potentially in the market for a new manager this summer, we were wondering what actually is the hardest coaching job in football? Let's find out. Because joining me for this one we've got three football aficionados, Jackpit, Brook, Thomas, Hill, Lopez, Manchero, and also Carl Anker as well. Gents, good to have you with us. This is hopefully going to be quite a meaty little discussion. So we're going to split this up into categories to cover a range of different jobs from Real Madrid to the English national team. And later on I'll get you three to list your top three hardest jobs in football. But first, Thomas, we have to talk about Real Madrid, a team with the highest standards, the record 15 times Champions League winners. How hard is that job?

[Thomas]

Yeah, so I'm, I commissioned this piece on the hardest coaching job and I think it was basically almost entirely inspired by Madrid and, and what we've seen this season. Xabi Alonso, a club legend, comes in, you think he's got all the tools to, to lay down a project and in fact he's, he's out the door in in, in less than eight months and replaced by a coach in Alvaro Aloa who doesn't have the, anywhere near the same kind of coaching experience as him. I think that just shows the, the unique challenge of managing Madrid. You're managing not just a president upstairs who you know is known for being pretty fickle, but a fan base who are fickle as well. Huge stadium, huge expectations, as you say, and massive stars. I think that's the main thing, the galactico power that comes with managing Madrid.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, that's the thing. And you know, how much or how easy is it, if you're coaching Madrid, is to cut out the noise from the socios, Florentino Perez, the fans in itself. I mean, people think about it as a coaching job perhaps, but it's more, much more, or feels a bit more ambassadorial in many respects. Thomas?

[Thomas]

Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, if you look at the, the list of coaches that Madrid have had in the 21st century, not many of them are coaches on the kind of cutting edge of football. You know, it's, it's people who are there to man manage, I suppose, at the, at the most basic level. But that just goes to show that a different skill set is required to manage Madrid than other clubs. I'm sure we'll get on to, to talk about Man United, but I think there are, there are parallels there. Managers who maybe wouldn't succeed elsewhere, succeed at Madrid because they kind of have the, the soft skills and the ability to, to bring all those, all those things together.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, Jack. I'll just think about Alonso and we know what he's done at Leverkusen. An incredible coach. Perhaps that was the issue. He was too much of a coach rather than this big statesman that we come to expect. Like Carlo Ancelotti, for instance.

[Mark Bittman]

I think so, yeah. I mean, I think from, from everything I've read about, about Xabi Alonso, not least on the Athletic, it seems like it was the fact that he had very, very clear tactical the player. He didn't want to meet the players halfway. You know, he wanted to tell the players, this is how we're going to play. And you know, that model of coaching has been, is basically how most of the best teams the last 10, 20 years have operated. But clearly Real Madrid is a different place with a different dynamic. And it seems to me like Xabi Alonso's attempts to introduce very clear ideas about, about how he wanted to play and very clear instructions to the players was probably his undoing ultimately, because clearly the players didn't see it the same way and the president decided to side with the players rather than the coach.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, and I guess Carl, and maybe let's bring Manchester United into this is fans expectations and style of football. Fans get used to a certain style of football when it comes to Manchester United. We now have. Manchester United have dominated the league for so many years. If a coach doesn't meet that expectation, does it become quite difficult?

[Carl]

Yes, I think so. I think there's. It's one thing when you're in charge of these super clubs. I often describe them a bit like Formula one cars, where the slightest twitch or the slightest bubble can send you flying off track at 300 miles an hour. When you have this, the smallest roadblock, then it becomes a huge inconsistent about your style, your style of play, your substitutions, your mannerisms in the press conference. And you can very often survive some defeats if you lose in the quote, unquote, right way. So one of the big things for a number of these clubs that we're going to talk about is you are meant to be playing attractive, entertaining football, front foot football. There's a Manchester United way that involves using players from your academy and playing with wingers. There's a Tottenham Hotspur way, which Jackpot Brook will help better describe than me. There was even talk of a West Ham way when David Moyes was having a successful period at West Ham, but also perhaps not delivering on the sort of entertainment that fans in East London were beginning to feel like they should have. So this sort of mythical way of playing is fascinating. I think Real Madrid's one's particularly interesting in that because they are Real Madrid and because they have access to some of the best players in the world, they often buy them when they are, let's say, stuck in some of their ways, perhaps less open minded about the way they play. And you can have this huge ego clash. And from what I've seen, the most successful Real Madrid managers, at least in the 21st century, because it's really important to say Real Madrid existed before Florentino Perez and there was a version of Real Madrid before they got obsessed with winning La Decima. And there was a version of Real Madrid that existed before the Galacticos, et cetera. But you hear some of these stories about how successful stories, but the successful managers, Carlo Ancelotti and how he managed to balance the squad, or there was one. I did an interview with Danilo several, several years ago and he explained how Zinedine Zidane talked to different players from different nationalities across the Real Madrid dressing room. And one thing he pointed out was he said, when Zidane is, if you're not doing what you need to do in training and you were Brazilian, Zidane wouldn't necessarily shout at you, he'd just glare at you and walk towards you. Now, Zidane can get away with that, or Zidane can do that, because he's Zinedine Zidane. He's the French player who won a World Cup, 1998 World cup, and he's the one that put Brazil to the sword in 2006. He's the boogeyman to Brazilian football players. And just that glare and walk towards you will make many a Brazilian player go, oh, I gotta pay attention. Whereas there were certain stories about how, let's say how Jose Mourinho had certain arguments in different languages when you are arguing with people at Real Madrid and perhaps while it was successful at first, that became, eventually you just started far too many fights and therefore you had to be removed. So being a Real Madrid manager is one of those complete, one of one jobs, completely out of this world. Because, yeah, Xavier Lonza absolutely want to coach. He absolutely wants to get Real Madrid to play high, pressing football and have Real Madrid to play with the structure. But when you have a player like say, Vinicius Jr. Or Kylian Mbappe, you go, wait, why do I have to track back? Why don't everyone else track back? And then you just knock the ball to me when you win the ball back. That's a justifiable response at quite a few clubs. Most football clubs can survive with one player not defending as hard as everyone else, especially if you're on the Mbappe Vinicius level. The problem with Real Madrid is they nearly always have two players of the Mbappe Vinicius level. So trying to get those two or two players of that type to fit in and to buy into defensive schemes is going to be next to impossible, apart from the 0.000001% of managers. And to be that special kind of manager, you tend to have to turn up Real Madrid having already won a Champions League somewhere else maybe, or at least having deep, deep, deep playing history of Real Madrid ways. Which is why I suppose everyone thought Xavi Alonso was going to work. But no, turns out he was too much of a schoolteacher.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, this is the thing, Jack, in terms of like, you know, we look at the current crop of managers on the market right now, I mean, very few of them, you'd say, have won Contin league, but. But also with a team like Real Madrid, for instance, a team that's got this really solid DNA of winning, trying to move forward and adapt, perhaps to new types of styles, new types of coaching. Can that DNA hold them back?

[Mark Bittman]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting question. I think there's definitely an extent to which it's being a really big, historic club can make life harder rather than easier. And I think if you just look at the Premier League, for example, I think that the most upwardly mobile teams the last five, 10 years have been teams that don't really have a lot of historical baggage, you know, like Brighton or Brentford or Bournemouth, or teams who've been able to almost. Where the ownership has almost been able to treat it as having a blank slate and without having that kind of historical expectation and without having kind of opinionated former players talking in the media about you. And I actually think running a big club to be historically big club to be successful, like, I don't know, Leeds United or Nottingham Forest or whatever, is harder. And I think the same thing is probably true outside of the Premier League as well. Right. Like, if you have a fan base who have got very clear expectations, and if you have, you know, former players who talk a lot in the media, and if you have a lot of kind of club politics to deal with, it's probably a bit harder to think strategically and to. And for people who own and run football clubs to imprint what they want to do or how they intend to win. I actually think Real Madrid is possibly a slight exception to the rule simply because they have won so much that they have won continually in the last 10 years, despite having, or maybe because of having a lot of this historical baggage. But I do think that in general, the point holds that it can actually be. You can be a bit more like. Bigger clubs can just be a bit unwieldy. It can just be a bit harder to turn the ship around. And I think, you know, Manchester United is probably the best single example of that.

[Ayo Akimolere]

It's interesting we talk about winning, Thomas, because I always wonder how sustainable this is over a long period of time, as other teams are brightening their ideas up as well, and as. As league structures change across Europe and all that, you know, can Real Madrid comfortably say that they are always going to be the best team in European football, in the Champions League, which is something we know them for. But also with that comes a fan's expectation that we are going to win the Champions League this season? And where are they now? They're currently in a playoff situation. Not quite knowing whether or not they'll be going to the next phase.

[Thomas]

Yeah, it's a big kind of reckoning, I think this season because I think if, if they go trophyless this season, It'll be the second time in two years that hasn't happened since 2006 when Perez stepped down. That was in the first kind of galactico zero and I think things have changed. I think he has learned some lessons. But this is a pretty unwieldy team of superstars, veterans, some young players coming through who, who aren't quite, quite there yet. So it's a tricky situation for Arbolo. There's every chance that, that he wins La Liga. But you're right, Madrid always want to be competing in Europe. And if I can add to Jack's point there, I think the baggage with Madrid for a coach at least is that there isn't even a kind of great coach that they look towards. Maybe Miguel Munoz is the closest thing and you know Ancelotti as well who, who equaled his record of trophies. But there's no Sir Alex Ferguson at United or, or Wenger at Arsenal. The coach really isn't the most important person person at Madrid. And when you know that from the off, I think that makes your job even more difficult.

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[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, we've touched on clubs, histories, but what about style of play? Jack, you know DNA also goes hand in hand in style when it comes to football. You know obviously Barcelona and what we see it from La Masia to what's obviously on the field. I guess spurs is an interesting one and obviously with your spurs hat on. I'd love to talk about that a little bit. Do you think that was the fundamentally the undoing of Thomas Frank at Spurs? Is that what the fans expected wasn't necessarily what they saw on the field, despite the personnel that he had at his disposal?

[Mark Bittman]

I don't think it was just that, but I think that was a big part of it. And I think again that kind of speaks to the huge difference between managing Brentford and managing Tottenham. Don't think it's unfair to say that Brentford is not a club with a historical expectation of a certain style of play. Right. Like they are. You know, the last few years have been the most successful period in their history and Frank was able to pursue what he thought was the most efficient, effective style of play for every game. You know, I don't think I might be wrong about this, but I don't think anyone was telling him actually Thomas, this is not the Brentford way. You should get the ball and play some expansive stuff. So I don't think he was under that pressure. And then obviously you go to a club with a huge history of entertainment as well as of success coming after a manager who for all his kind of ups and downs, Antwasocoglou played a brand of football that was very much in keeping with the historical expectations of the club. And suddenly Frank's kind of. How best to describe it? Kind of like minimalistic set piece based like kind of almost like over optimized style of play. I just don't think it. It just didn't click like people. The fans didn't believe in it. They were never given anything to believe in. And I think that that meant that when results started, you know, results are actually fine at the start, but when results started to go south, they. He kind of had no credit in the bank. Right. Because fans, fans didn't feel like they were on a journey with him. And when the performances are bad and the results are worse, then you're in trouble.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. I do think about Manchester United on this one and you've mentioned it. Karl, in terms of the Manchester United way style of play is fascinating. Obviously the great days of Sir Alex Ferguson and the domination he had on the Premier League and European football is exemplary and should be applauded. But I guess all the different managers and coaches of Manchester United have had since. Does the style of play only really come into play, excuse the pun, when the team aren't performing so well, if that makes sense. If they're winning trophies, surely nothing matters.

[Carl]

Yes, but you've just said that if they're winning trophies. And if we look at Manchester United in the post Zareks Ferguson era, the trophies they have won have often come with a sort of background noise and discussion. Let's look at Lou Van hall wins the FA cup, walks in, drops the trophy down and it's very much like, I know you're about to sack me because Jose Mourinho's waiting in the wings. And one of the big criticisms of Lou van Gaal's time at Manchester United was the football was boring. There were many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many diagonal balls played out to fullback.

[Ayo Akimolere]

That's a lot of menies, that's a lot of Minis.

[Carl]

It was a sludge to watch Louis Van Hall's Manchester United. And Van hall is a fascinating example of the difference in club ways and club DNA because he won the Champions League with Ajax, which has a very pronounced style of play, a very pronounced way of playing football, which was codified and drawn up with Rinus Mickels and Johan Cruyff. Then he goes off to Barcelona. Very, very similar because Jan Kleuf went over to Barcelona too. So had a very pronounced style of play there too. We know certain things about the Ajax way and the Barcelona way because Johan Klouf has. There's loads of videos you can find on YouTube and loads of quotes you can have and loads of books written about this and loads of things that we know Krauf liked and didn't like. And one thing I always bring up is he particularly disliked balls from played from the fullback directly in front of you to the winger. He said it was a, it's a useless pass because it doesn't necessarily take a defender out the game. And this was a thing for many, many Ajax team and many, many Barcelona team of just like, we just don't do this pass. It doesn't really work. You can't really do that with Manchester United because as we've written on the piece that Thomas has commissioned, only three Manchester United head coaches have won the league title. And Sax Ferguson didn't like spies. That's why Carrington training ground is, is all the way over there. And one of the things I get now when I, when I speak to someone sort of under the age of 20s, they go, sir Alex Ferguson didn't have tactics. I'm like, no, no, incorrect. Ferguson did have tactics. He just didn't like explaining what they were because he very much believed if you explained it, it was like revealing a match.

[Ayo Akimolere]

It's out in the open.

[Carl]

Yes. So if you go back and watch old episodes of Match of the Day or old Highlights, you find someone like Alan Hansen, say, Manchester United closing down in pods. We now would call that pressing. And also crucially, one thing that I think gets overlooked a lot about Sir Alex Ferguson's time especially is he constantly rotated as the his assistant managers. The Treble winning team has Steve McLaren as his assistant manager. The 2008 Champions League winning team has Carlos Queiras as his assistant manager. And a lot of these assistants, towards the end especially were primarily taking training. So, yes, you have a Manchester United Way, which is youth, courage and success, which is the motto, and it was put on one of the old home kits. But also the United way is more folklore than let's set a codified rules that we've got and we can see in terms of Barcelona or in Ajax.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's open this one to the floor. Jack, please take the reins on this one. What about a team like AC Milan, for instance? Former European giants, seven European Cups, Champions Leagues, none since 2007. How hard is it for a team like that to find a style, to have a style when they don't have the same kind of finances as maybe a team like Real Madrid or even Manchester United, Arsenal, Bayern Munich?

[Mark Bittman]

I think it's really hard. I don't really feel like they've had a very, very clear style for a while. I think a lot of that is to do with their place in the football food chain nowadays. They just don't, you know, it's kind of incomparable really, from how it was 20 years ago ever since, you know, when was it they had to sell Thiago Silva and Zlatan Ibrahimovic to PSG in 2011ish, I think, since I think that kind of marked the change in their position in the market. And, you know, they've had some success since then, but it's very difficult being that level of club now because you can't really build anything. Like, even if you have a good young player coming through, they're going to get picked off by a richer club quicker than ever before. So you're always going to be quite transitory, I think, with quite a lot of churn of players coming in and out, because that's just how you, how you make money, basically. And that means that it's probably quite. But given the demands of the fan base that you've got to win and competitive and, you know, they have won. I mean, they've had some success in Syria the last few years. It's not like they've done nothing at all. But given the churn of players and the demands to win, I think that the idea of impressing a style of play is actually probably quite far down the pecking order of things that the club can actually focus on.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. What do you think, Thomas?

[Thomas]

Yeah, I think that the style of play thing is a real double edged sword because even at Barcelona where you'd say, you know, the Barca DNA is the biggest thing we saw a couple of years ago at one of their greatest ex players who was responsible for implementing that style, Xavi, kind of not failing miserably. He had a good, you know, he had some good seasons, won them the league title, but their style of play was, was not good. You know, fans were really disappointed about that and I think it made it even more disappointing coming from a former player who had been part of one of those generational sides. Flick comes in, he's a slightly, slightly different manager, you know, doesn't speak Catalan, doesn't speak Spanish, isn't kind of schooled in the Barca way, but in a way his removal from that environment has allowed him to do better because he's kind of added to it. It's now really exciting football that they're playing and he's doing really well. I mean, now there's a bit of a debate about his high line and that goes to show how important the tactical debate is at Barca. But I do think sometimes being removed from that environment as well and not necessarily being totally wedded to a team style of play is important for a coach.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah. And I guess is there more flexibility there in Serie A because the money isn't there necessarily. Carl, the Juve we see this, or maybe the AC Milan we see this season isn't necessarily the AC Milan we're going to see next season.

[Carl]

Yeah, it's a interesting challenge looking at Italian football. I mean, A.C. milan to my mind and for the majority of my life were owned by Berlusconi and had this sort of idea of playing football in a very elegant way. You had Maldini, you had Santiro, they had this very particular mythical way of playing that perhaps hasn't existed for too long now. They have had some really interesting ownership changes. Chinese part ownership for a while, US hedge fund. I mean, they win a Serie A title in some really interesting circumstances on Pioli, but then they just sort of crumble and make a, just a huge collection of very bizarre, silly transfer mistakes. Quite frankly, the interesting thing with Italian football right now is for at least I want to say four of the clubs, they don't seem too far away from mounting a good league challenge. The fact that Napoli has won two Serie A titles now is, quite frankly, bizarre. If you said that to someone in 2006, Napoli is going to win the Serie A title twice, you're like, what?

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[Mark Bittman]

Who?

[Carl]

The churn can be a good thing and a bad thing in Italian football, especially in that if you, if you churn well enough and you, you get a, a good collection and constellation of players and a coach, you can have a good run, you can get something done there. I'm not sure if it's going to be conductive to Champions League success because, I mean, we're talking right now on a Thursday. Basically every single Italian team has struggled in the Champions League playoffs this week. So, oops.

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You're listening to The Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, I want to quickly touch on ownership, Jack, and what those power dynamics can mean for potential coaches or managers at certain clubs. And we have to talk about Chelsea really under Roman Abramovic. You know, an owner that changed the game for Chelsea, the way he hired and fired in many respects. But it's also, in a way, even with the new ownership come to define the way Chelsea operate, you know, look at the current ownership having gone through Thomas Tuchel, Graham Potter, Frank Lampard, Mauricio Pochettino, Enzo Maresca. Now they've hired Liam Racinha. If you don't have that stability up top, how hard is it for you to cook at your job?

[Mark Bittman]

It's really hard. It's really hard. And I think that Chelsea have probably, I mean, you could argue they've kind of been ahead of the curve, right? Or at least they've, they've had a model both in the current ownership and the previous ownership of Roman Abramovich, of just changing managers really often. Like, it's very. This was not really something we saw that often, I think, in English football, particularly the top level, 25 years ago. And now it's kind of accepted, right, that Chelsea managers simply won't get that long in the job. Like, you know, if you go back and look over the last. Well, basically since the Abramovic takeover a long time ago now, more than 20 years ago, obviously when Mourinho came in, he had just over three seasons, but since then, I think that's the longest spell that any Chelsea managers actually had in the role. You know, even Ancelotti got two years. Jose got what, two and a half years when he went back for the second time. But in the main, like, the churn is quite brisk, which is strange really because I mean, on the one hand it has, you know, Chelsea have won a lot in the last over that time, Spanish. But I still think that the most successful English teams of that, of certainly probably the last 10, 20 years have ultimately been teams who followed a more traditional model like Pep, you know, Pep being at City. Pep's coming up to his 10 year anniversary at City. Jurgen Klopp was at Liverpool for almost nine years. You know, we can talk about Arteta's Arsenal or not if you want, but like that's clearly, you know, he's clearly built something sort of permanent. Like he's been there, he's been there since 2019. And whereas Chelsea kind of sit slightly away from that, it's a different strategy Isn't it? With a much, much faster turnover of coaches.

[Carl]

I think the interesting thing about Chelsea, at least on the Ancelotti, was even though they had this churn and this sort of post Mourinho mark One churn, they had a very, very strong playing core. And you definitely felt there were times where the dressing room sort of wrestled control away from the manager and took things under control and went, right, we're gonna do it our way. And I mean, I was close to my university years, but you'd hear you. You'd be reading reports and hearing stories about how Terry Lampard, Drogba were going, this is what we're going to do. And the fact that Chelsea win their. They get to their first Champions League final against Manchester United under Avram Grant. They win the Champions League over Bayern Munich in Munich under Di Matteo, and then they win their second one on Thomas Tuchel. Like Chelsea's great exploits in Europe are quite interesting because they happen in almost these sort of transitory states for, for at least the head coaches. But you've got a. A very, very strong dressing room and historically the Chelsea dressing room has been very, very strong or had some very, very strong figures in there that have meant. Even though there's a constant churn, there's a consistency there that's been quite useful. I've mentioned Thomas Tuchel now and I'm just gonna. Just rant about Thomas Tuchel for a little bit because I find him fascinating in that he's. He seems to be a manager who only takes these really difficult, impossible jobs, right? We're talking about a Dortmund manager, a Bayern manager, a PSG manager, and he's got the England job and he's been heavily linked to the Manchester United job as well. And one thing I often hear is how Tuchel falls out with those above him, to which I always pause and go, have you looked at who the people are above him? The circumstances around him leaving Dortmund are incredibly fraught and involve a quite serious domestic terrorism case. He's the PSG coach and gets them to their Champions League final. But then obviously, PSG is not a place where coaches last for too long. He's a Bayern Munich coach, and when you're the Bayern Munich manager, that means you're very often having to deal with things that are being said by Ulajones and Karl Heinz Rimmennegger. He's the Chelsea manager and he seems like things were going well until Todd Boehly started whatsapping him about potential players to buy. And now he's The England boss, which, I mean, he's just had his contract extended but he seems to be doing well in the England ecosystem and he doesn't seem to have the necessary dealing with people above him issues for now. But I find Tuchel fascinating in that he's had so many of these impossible jobs and he seems to be uniquely good ish at being resilient at dealing, at managing upwards.

[Mark Bittman]

I think the fact that he has signed on to do another two years as England manager is really interesting. I think it goes to show that like traditionally people would have said, oh, the best managers all want to be big club, Champions League, competing twice a week. They don't want to do international football. The more I think about it, the more I think actually international football's really attractive, particularly as a manager who has to an extent been there and done that with big European clubs. He's done the grind, he's done Chelsea, PSG and Bayern Munich. That's like three of the big seven or eight, nine clubs in European football. He's done it. It's hard, it's exhausting, it's political. You have to do two games a week, two press conferences a week. You had to deal with big egos all the time. And I actually think that the idea of the kind of slightly slower pace of international football building towards these big mega tournaments still working, you know, working with brilliant players, I think it's just a different, it's a different dynamic, it's a different vibe and I can, I'm actually, the more I think about it, the less surprised I am that he's decided, actually, I want to do some more of this. I want to do a second tournament, I want to try and win Euro 28 for England in England, rather than trying to dive two footed back into the club market. And also the other point on the club market is as much as managers might want to plan their path, the fact is it's so out of your control. Like you can't, you know, you don't know what jobs are going to come up, you don't know how long you're going to last in a job. Like I'm sure so many people would have looked at Xabi Alonso and said, oh look, you know, he's going to be Real Madrid manager for years, he's going to win everything. And he got spat out in six months. So I just think that you can't, I think a lot of managers will probably look at that and think, well, maybe I don't have, I can't kind of Plan my future career path in club football in quite the way that I might have wanted to.

[Ayo Akimolere]

As you're talking international football. I mean, since 1966, I mean, England have come close, but it's not an easy job. And it brings me on to Carlo Ancelotti at Brazil. Thomas former Real Madrid man But much like England, this is a population that's obsessed with football. Over 210 million people love football. Brazil. But the last time Brazil won the World cup was 2002. In that team. Dida Lucia Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, CAFO, Gilberto Silva de Nilsson, Juninho Paulista. Ronaldinho. Ronaldo R9. I can't say the current crop of players match that, but how hard is that job, especially a team that's so iconic on the world stage?

[Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. It's so difficult IO, as you say, because it's one of those international teams. I guess you'd only compare that pressure to Argentina, maybe. England obviously has it, but I'm not sure you're having kind of that say that same level of pressure in the streets and people, you know, living for the game in the same way that they do in, in those South American countries. I think you're absolutely right. Ancelotti. There's this image from the outside, isn't there? I mean, I think we saw these images of him at, you know, a Brazilian festival, I think it was the other day, and looks like he said,

[Ayo Akimolere]

yeah, it was a carnival.

[Carl]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Thomas]

Looks like, you know, and why wouldn't he want to be on the Copacabana? But when it comes to the business end of this tournament this summer, there's going to be high expectations on his shoulders, lots of pressure on his shoulders, as you say. Brazil haven't won the World cup since 2002. They're not going through a great patch right now. Okay. He knows some of the Real Madrid players well, but those aren't exactly Real Madrid players in great form at the moment. They've been pretty inconsistent. Vinicius, Rodrygo, Militao even has been injured recently. So it's going to be a tricky job. And, you know, I guess you wonder why he's. He's so suited to some of these high pressure jobs. I think he can live with it. Well, I think he, he gives off a very assured presence in press conferences, which seems daft to say that should be such a big thing for, for a manager. But we saw Amarim at United, right, Almost being too honest. Ancelotti knows just the right level of detail to give just the right amount to. To give to the press while still presenting this kind of old school, gentleman like figure which I think endears him to fans and probably those above him as well.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, gents, I'm going to ask you what you think the top three hardest coaching jobs in football are today. Jack, you go.

[Mark Bittman]

Barcelona. I think because of the huge public pressure, the financial problems, the demands for style of play, two would be Manchester United. Just because the hu. The huge history of the club, the constant churn of people behind the scenes, the pressure and I think the struggles to kind of marry like a winning style with the expectations of the fans. And then finally, I think this morning I feel like the answer is probably Arsenal. Just because huge, lots of pressure, expectation. Haven't won the Premier League since 2004. Got lots of good players, but they can't seem at the moment to get over the line. So right now I think that Mikel Arteta's job actually looks pretty difficult.

[Carl]

IO yeah. Who's the Watford manager right now?

[Ayo Akimolere]

The Pozzo family seem to change them very quickly. Who is it? It's Ed Still, Will Still's brother.

[Carl]

Yes. There's the tricky managerial job, the one that we all kind of forget and I think I googled it this morning and it's the Yavi Grassi and Google.

[Ayo Akimolere]

All right, Karl, we've scratched Watford, but come on, give us your top three.

[Carl]

Manchester United. I think Shah Zurgsen casts such a long shadow over the club in good and sometimes difficult ways. And I think there's just such an outsized media focus on everything. The one we often talk about in Talk of Devils is someone goes, this is a must win game. To which we always go. When was the last time Manchester United didn't play a must win game? Every game is a must win game. And I think that's particularly difficult. I think the Brazil job is increasingly hard in that I am a child of the 90s. The very first World Cup I remember watching was 1998. That Brazil team looked amazing. They didn't win the final, but I was. If you're a child of the 90s, you've grown up believing Brazil should be getting to the semi final of every single World cup, regardless.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Because there's a feeling that Brazil, much like Real Madrid, should either get to the latter stages or win the tournament.

[Carl]

They should be there. I always have that quote from Pele in the back of my head about how the World cup starts on two days. The opening day and then the day where Brazil play. That's how World Cups work. I think it's increasingly hard to win the World cup as a Brazil manager, not just because it's been a long time, but also because market forces, socioeconomical changes. If you compare a World cup winning team from Brazil's 1994 to, let's say, the one from 2022, you've gone from a national team that predominantly had their players in Brazil and working together to now they're all further afield in Europe chasing their careers and. And trying to make the best themselves. And Brazil's no longer. Domestic football in Brazil is no longer able to hold on to the best Brazilian players for too long. And I think Neymar was perhaps the last great Brazilian player who played a bit longer in Brazil. And I think that's why he was really interesting there. So I think the Brazil job's getting increasingly hard. And you know what? I think the spurs job is getting increasingly impossible too. Because if you're the spurs manager, yes, there is an expectation of playing entertaining football, but also that that doesn't necessarily link up with winning football. And I think that is when people scoff about the spurs way, they're like, wait, but spurs haven't won trophies for ages. Why? Why are you still trying to play entertaining football? Can't we just win games first? I also think spurs is smaller wage Bill, and they're smaller. They cannot compete financially with two or three of the biggest clubs in England, which means you need the need to have a crop of incredible young players growing up together and getting it done, which unfortunately they couldn't do with Son Kane and Dele Alli, even though they came very, very close. Yeah, I think it's very, very hard for Tot matsba to win the biggest trophies. And yet, because they are in the top six, there is a discussion, and I don't want to say expectation to compete for the biggest trophies. And that can make it really difficult. If Tot Motzbur won next season's FA cup, would that manager be regarded as one of the greatest spurs managers of all time? Probably not. So what do you need to do to be regarded as one of the greatest spurs managers of all time?

[Ayo Akimolere]

And Thomas, I'm wondering if Real Madrid is in this list, but what do you think?

[Thomas]

I think it's got to be Real Madrid top. I take Jack's point about the pressure at Barca, but I actually do think in some ways the financial situation has maybe taken the pressure off the manager a little bit at times. I think Flick what he's done coming in in a very kind of unassuming way. He didn't have a lot of expectation, to be honest. Xavi had left in a, in a slightly turbulent way. And Flick's allowed to build this project. I think that's the, that's the key thing Barca managers are allowed to, to implement a bit more of a project we saw with Xabi Alonso. That's just not possible. Real Madrid at the moment under, under Florentino Perez. Second, I'd have to say Brazil. I think the pressure of 210 million people, as we say, as we just said there is, is huge and that's particularly concentrated in, in South America, of course. So same for Argentina and then third, Manchester United. Because as Karl says, you've got the pressure of external pundits. You've got that pressure of Sir Alex Ferguson's shadow looming over you. And with a squad who at times aren't necessarily set up for success in the same way as his teams were.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Gents, I really enjoyed that. Carl Thomas and also Jack. I really appreciate your time and also thank you guys guys for always joining us as well. Matt Davis Adams is with you tomorrow with the preview. Enjoy.

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