Michael Cox (2:18)

Hi, Michael.

Michael Bailey (2:19)

And Mark Carey.

Mark Carey (2:21)

Hello, Michael.

Michael Bailey (2:22)

Perhaps the least surprising news of the century, maybe by the timing, arrived on Monday morning with Ruben Amarim relieved of his duties, be them as manager or head coach at Old Trafford. We've spoken about him and the work he was doing at the club so many times since his appointment. So we'll keep this answer brief, but were any of you surprised by the call to sack him? Michael, you were a staunch Amerind skeptic.

Michael Cox (2:48)

Yeah, I know it sounds mad, but I honestly thought as early as, like, March, I really Feared for Amram. I just don't think it was ever going anywhere, sadly. And we've spoken about the system a lot before, so no, I wasn't at all surprised, obviously slightly surprised at the kind of way it blew up. Even having read our very detailed long read, I still didn't quite understand why there was such an explosive argument almost out of nowhere. But it's interesting to see what comes next. I mean, as we record this, Manchester United are only two points outside the top four. So I think a lot of the time when a club is getting in a caretaker manager, it's like, well, just steady the ship. It doesn't really matter. Hold the four and we'll get someone else in eventually. But actually every, every point counts for Manchester United at the moment. Had they won last night against Burnley, they would be in fourth place in the Premier League, albeit with Liverpool having a game in hand, which they're playing tonight. So I think it's an appointment that is, you know, I think the way that they manage the next few weeks are really important. Obviously eventually whoever they appoint is a big decision as well. But this, this period in between I think is really important for Manchester United.

Mark Carey (3:54)

I do think, obviously the main thing that was the discussion point with Amarin was the system. I do think it is quite funny, ironic, whatever you want to say, that people were mainly calling for him to change the system for quite a long time or just the idea that he could potentially have changed the system. And he said repeatedly that he was dedicated to it and there's no situation where he is going to change it. And that was maybe causing a bit of tension. And then of course the. He said that he was going to change it, but not because the media said anything. And he was trying to make sure that that was very clear. Changed it a little bit with mixed success. I think that fans and people were frustrated that they didn't open up when they were playing against a team, 10 men, Everton and against Wolves, even though they had changed to a bit more of a back four in the previous couple of games, I do still think it was the right decision ultimately that to Michael's point, things weren't really going anywhere. But once he actually did start to change the system and there was the idea that this could maybe be a trend in future weeks and months, people said, well, you know, maybe he's lost the trust of everybody. So I thought that was a little bit funny, if nothing else, I suppose.

Michael Bailey (4:58)

Yes, the old narrative switching, isn't it, Liam? That sort of stuff fitting in the narrative to how things are going and what have you.

Liam Tham (5:04)

I think so. And look, managerial tenures are getting so much shorter now. I'd look at. There's a really good report from cies, a football research organization from April of this year or last year. Sorry now in 2026. So from April 2025 they worked out that in the Premier League, 45% of their coaches in charge for less than a year, 65% so about 2/3 for less than two years. You do get some that are in charge. You know, you get the Arteta or Guardiola kind of club ones. You do get a few at big clubs that have their own longevity, but, you know, it's become increasingly so volatile now. You're looking at the rate of SAC things kind of per season basically being double what it was in the early 2000s. We've obviously seen Enzo Maresca also leave Chelsea. These things now feel like a mix of like kind of tactical problems or are your actual on pitch performance as much as they do whatever happens off pitch in terms of things that are said in the media or breakdowns in relationships. And I appreciate that as clubs get richer and you get these formalized roles of like sporting directors and hierarchy and you know, people clearly not getting on and connecting there. But yeah, it's a kind of. This was like the latest chapter in United still trying to or failing to reinvent themselves in this kind of post Ferguson era.

Michael Bailey (6:11)

And the good thing is we get a caretaker manager. Manchester United have appointed Darren Fletcher to do that job. He's been drafted in. He is a caretaker manager. He knows the club. I'm doing lots of scare quotes here, but what is the general remit of a caretaker manager? Mark, how would you distill it?

Mark Carey (6:29)

All right, it's a good question. Is it worth also just distinguishing between a caretaker manager and an interim manager? Definitely, because my understanding would be that a caretaker manager is someone hired from within in whatever role, and then sort of drafted in the short term. Interim is also in the short term, hence the word, but potentially kind of drafted from outside the club. It could potentially be inside the club as well, but someone that you can bring in externally to be for a short period. The other guys can correct me if I'm wrong there, but that's my understanding or interpretation of it.

Michael Cox (7:00)

Well, I mean I, I would. I don't necessarily disagree. That's what generally happened. I would say interim almost always is till the end of the season. Right. Or like a fixed. Almost like a fixed term. That is also short term. Whereas caretakers, like a couple of weeks. I mean, Manchester United, this is going to be the second time, I think they're gonna have a caretaker and an interim possibly. I mean, they did it before Carrick was the caretaker and Rangnick was the interim. So, yeah, I mean, as Lim points out, managerial terms are getting shorter and shorter. More managers are getting sacked in the middle of the season. And so I think this does occur quite often. It used to be quite rare to have a caretaker manager, whereas now it seems quite frequent. The first Premier League season, there was only one manager sacked all season, so it wasn't that much of an issue. And now? Yeah, now it's quite common.

Mark Carey (7:44)

And it does. To your point before, Michael as well, about it sounds a bit cliche, but the steadying of the ship does feel kind of the remit for the caretaker manager. This is separate from an interim, but it feels to me like fairly ambassadorial to kind of make sure that you are just doing the right thing for the club in the short term until the right decision is made, whatever that may be. The interesting thing, I think, which you could maybe do to a certain extent with an interim manager, and I'm sure we'll come on to that potentially through a Manchester United lens, but you can't do too much in the way of actually implementing any tactical ideas. So you kind of caught between a rock and hard place in terms of the preparation that you can maybe do. And of course, thinking about it with Darren Fletcher this week, it was clear that they moved to a back four or back to a back four against Burnley, but he obviously didn't have really too much time to implement it. Given that the system was kind of the main talking point with Amarim and that was potentially the issue. Does that mean that Fletcher is able to kind of flex his tactical muscles a little bit, or is it just making sure that everyone is kind of broadly a bit more happier, whether that's the fan base or the players as well, to feel as comfortable as they can to actually implement this strategy that they need to. I think it's quite difficult for a caretaker to really do anything and have much impact, but then I suppose by definition they're not there to have a truly big impact. They're just there to, as I say, come back to it, steady the ship.

Michael Cox (9:04)

If you appoint someone like Darren Fletcher, they tend to get the supporters on board. And I know that's a bit of a. A bit of a basic thing to say, but I do increasingly think managers like Maresca and Amarim are slightly Struggling to connect with the club. I do just think actually bringing in someone who very obviously cares about the club, even if he doesn't necessarily have the experience and the track record and the level at the moment to coach Manchester United in the long term. I do think there is something disappointing someone like that. You know, there's usually a bit of a burst of optimism and I think that can be a genuinely important factor.

Michael Bailey (9:37)

Putting the care into caretaker there. I think I've just thrown that in gone Liam.

Liam Tham (9:41)

I think there's a double edged sword to what Michael was talking about there as well for Manchester United specifically know when it comes to like having a caretaker is there's some. I think again this is then kind of being a bit forensic in terms of Darren Fletcher's kind of press conference. But the comments you made about kind of asking for Alex, Alex Ferguson's blessing is obviously former Manchester United manager and all the success that they had that they had as a club under him. You've now got this generation of course of the players that were really successful under Fergie, part of his title winning teams, you know, right up until kind of the early to mid 2010s, kind of at the end of his time as manager there that are now becoming coaches. Carrick as well. We see others obviously Rooneys had a go and now kind of into punditry. I do think they run a bit of a risk of that kind of the knows the club a bit too much of they've had more than a decade now of what feels like basically being stuck in a cycle of sacking a coach, you know, bringing in an interim or a caretaker, claiming they've got this kind of clear DNA, that there's this. There's this inherent thing that Manchester United are or how they play or what they want to be, which they can never seem to really find consistently through the coaches that they've got. So I think that that is a risk that they have more than any other club is having had so much success. They kind of seem to feel as though they're kind of one coach away and one right decision and maybe one or two transfer windows away from being back there. And I'm not quite sure that they are in fact I think kind of a hard pivot away. And people made an interesting point on social media this week about Arsenal post Arsene Wenger and how much space he kind of gave the club. And you look at Arteta now as the coach there, feel so distant and removed from that in a good way where they can kind of re. Reinvent themselves, have a new and different identity and kind of build their own. I don't want to use the word story, but kind of just their. And on, on their own merits for how they want to do it and what's, what's relevant now.

Michael Cox (11:21)

I mean, I don't disagree in terms of long term, but we are only talking about a caretaker with Fletcher and I think it's, you know, as, as Mark mentions, it's usually some. Someone internally. I mean Chelsea have had, I've had Lampard that was brought back to be the caretaker and Arsenal had Jungberg and Tottenham had Sherwood. So I agree that the Manchester United DNA thing doesn't work particularly well, but I think in the short term I think it is quite, quite a good solution. And it helps as well the fact that these usually play, usually manages who've worked with the under 18s or the under 23s and I think often it, it turns out their legacy, if you like. And I do think this can be slightly contrived because I think these caretakers are thinking about how they're perceived but often they do just give chances to a couple of young players and it works out. I mean, Tim Sherwood has spent 10 years mentioning that he was the first one to give Harry Kane a run out in the team. So yeah, it's. I think it can be useful to have someone. I think the other thing to say is if they're only going to be in charge for two or three weeks, I do think they need to be immediately known and respected by the players because I think there's an obvious temptation to go, who is this guy bossing me around? He's not going to be around in two or three weeks time. Why am I going to listen to what he's saying? But if it's someone that is familiar and someone who is probably going to go back to having a role in the club afterwards, I think you are more likely to get on board with that.

Michael Bailey (12:39)

I do love it when these things happen because there's so many preconceptions around it, I suppose. So for me, an interim manager, you're effectively saying we're only going to have you for a finite period, we don't want you longer term. That's one of the things you're basically saying because. And in a way the club almost has no excuse to then not get their next or fewer excuses not to get their next permanent manager right, because they're giving themselves a room to get the appointment right. Which I suppose does put big question marks over, over, say, Reuben Amren, for example. And then with the caretaker manager, you have maybe two dynamics. You have the ones who are happy to step in but know they don't want the job, and then you have the ones who are using it as an audition. And they clearly are putting that pressure on to try and see if they can eke out a job for themselves. Maybe that happens less at the big six clubs, but it definitely happens further down the pyramid. One question we can ask is whether caretaker managers are a waste of time. And for that we could hear, coincidentally, some quotes from from Darren Fletcher speaking in 2019, when Manchester United had just hired Ole Gunnar Solskjaer after sacking Jose Mourinho. Mr. Darren Fletcher said Manchester United should never be in this position. They're almost writing off this season and next season because if they appoint a new manager in the summer, he's not going to have much time to look for new players. I mean, what do you make of it? Liam?

Liam Tham (14:03)

Well, this is quite a pedantic point, but I would also say that obviously now in modern football, it's not purely a manager's responsibility to look for the players. And in I think that can be part of the issue some of them have. Obviously what Amaran was kind of arguing was him with a head coach role and wanting to be or perceiving himself as the manager and kind of wanting that, that role or that kind of authority. I'm fundamentally always a bit baffled when teams don't quite have a replacement or really a succession plan kind of lined up. I go back to when they kept Erik Ten Hag on post FA Cup, FA cup win. And it kind of looked like, oh, he might leave the end of the season. And their kind of analysis, at least what they've said publicly, seemed to be they couldn't work out whether erik10hag was just not kind of hitting the level he needed to as a coach, or if they were just inherent problems at the club, which meant any coach would kind of struggle. So they gave him the benefit of the doubt. And then when they sacked him, I remember, I think it took a while for Amaran to come in. And again now I think, and there's a really fair point and Michael's written a great piece on this, that there's not a huge number of top coaches around, but given how poor they've been for quite a while now, or just underwhelming they've been, how long discussions have been going on about Amram's future, I'm amazed that they're kind of needing so much time to bring someone in. And look, January is probably a bad time transfer window going on a lot of games less so for them because they won't have Europe at the end of the season. But I think better, smarter clubs always have their finger on the pulse a bit more in terms of being in the know of what coaches are doing things well and where they're doing it. I remember Brighton appointing Roberto de Zerbi, I think, you know, within a couple weeks after Potter left, and that was Graham Potter leaving quite randomly because the Chelsea job became available. That was kind of a, you know, out of absolutely nothing. So I'm always amazed at the big club. So the reason resources they have don't put more into that, I think, honestly, I just find it bizarre.

Mark Carey (15:43)

It's funny that the logic that maybe Manchester United are using in this instance, for better or for worse, is that they want to have the time to be able to make the right decision. Whereas when they brought Amarim in, it was because they wanted to get him in at that point and he wanted to wait until the summer, if I'm not mistaken. And they said, well, no, we'd rather have you now. And then they can give him opportunity to assess the squad and then he'll have a full pre season to execute his ideas. So both of those two justifications are maybe at odds with each other, but I suppose it is maybe horses for courses. I think in terms of caretakers being a waste of time, I do think, I mean, you made the point, Michael, that it is kind of clever or wise to do so if they don't have the process lined up, which I agree with, Liam, they should have at that sort of level, they should have that process lined up and have sort of succession at whatever level. And I do think, much like players almost, it's better to. To wait for a manager in the summer if it's the manager that you want and not rush into something. And sometimes it's maybe not even tactical reason. It might be a very practical logistical reason like contract length or the sort of somewhat boring stuff that maybe don't need to get into now, but it might just be that a manager is actually available at the end of their contract at a certain period of time. And as I say, like, like a player, maybe you get a loan signing in for a player in the January window, knowing that you can land a permanent signing for the long term and do your sort of process correctly and make a good financial and business decision rather than necessarily rushing into a thing. But I do come back to it. I agree with Liam that any good club should have a succession plan of managers that are high on the list.

Michael Cox (17:16)

I think there's also something that's changed, which is that managers tend to come with their assistants and a coaching team and you have five or six there who, when the manager gets sacked, almost what, they all leave. And it used to be not uncommon for a manager to leave the assistant to be more the club man and be in a position to take over, because that was the plan. I mean, Zinedine Zidane taking over at Real Madrid from when Benitez got sacked, you know, I think was something that obviously worked really well and then you can give it a go and it was like, well, we're probably grooming him for the future, let's see if he's ready. Whereas when it's someone like Fletcher, they often seem to be coming really from the under, under 18s, under 21s and it's probably a bigger step up at that point. They haven't always been around the first team. So yeah, I think there's a few reasons that clubs struggle more than they used to, I think in this sit Foreign.

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Michael Bailey (20:30)

I guess we can say the journey from caretaker to interim to to manager has been a success in the past at Manchester United with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. And there are noises that they may repeat the trick, at least in terms of getting him in in some kind of temporary role. I mean, Michael, why did that one work at the time? And I mean, were you feelings on the fact they might then try and repeat the trick?

Michael Cox (20:58)

Well, he did a very good job as caretaker. You can say the mistake was appointing him permanently. But I don't think we should be too wise in hindsight because the results have been so good that at that point I don't think they really had any other option. I mean, they were playing very well. And even though they slightly fluked that win away at PSG in the Champions League, which probably got him the job, I don't think you'll find anyone who would say any any different. And even though they'd kind of plucked him from Molde in Norway, which is obviously quite an inferior league to the Premier League, he did have managerial experience and he was. He was highly rated even as a player, as someone who was a footballing thinker. So he did a good job as a caretaker. And I think the reason he did a good job was to a certain extent, it was back to basics. He didn't try to do too much. It was a relatively. Well, I thought at their best, Manchester United were basically well organized defensively and quite good in the counter attack. And he made a very, very good decision to completely debase the side around Bruno Fernandes, who came in about a month after he was appointed. And that basically made him good for the next 18 months. So I do understand the logic behind it. I realize it can look a little bit unimaginative. Yeah, unimaginative. But I mean, this is one of the things about Manchester United that we constantly hear that they've had, you know, 13 years of failure since Ferguson left. Well, okay, they haven't won the league, but that failure stretches from finishing 15th to finishing second. And they did finish second under social. And I never thought Solskjaer really was the manager for them in the long term to take him to a title time when Klopp and Guardiola would dominate in the Premier League. But he got 74 points with Manchester United and they got 42 last season. So if you want to, if you want to be all kind of Roy Keane about it and say second place is failure, then fine. But there's a big difference between the two of them. And you know, to a certain extent, what Solskjaer did represents, you know, where Manchester United would want to be at the moment, really.

Mark Carey (22:53)

I do agree with Michael. I feel like it is only in, in retrospect that we maybe look down on Solskjaer's time there, especially because, yeah, to Michael's point, the context with which he was sort of made permanent, it did make a lot of sense. And you looked at it in terms of just how bad it was under Mourinho, in terms of the general atmosphere at the club. And then he kind of released the Shackles a little bit, did Solskjaer. And then United won the first six Premier League games with him when he came in December. And then I think when he got the more of the permanent contract in the following March, they were unbeaten certainly in the Premier League at that point as well. And it is worth noting that they didn't or sorry, they went on to win only two of their final nine Premier League games that season. So it was almost, almost like you have sort of player contract phenomenon that actually once he got the, the permanent role, it did start to slide a little bit. And of course then he had a bit more time after that. But at that time, given the, the record that he had unbeaten in the, the Premier League up to that point, it every fan, well, most fans were sort of clamoring for him to be made permanent. And you do think in general about the new manager bounce and everything that came with it. I think with, with that of him winning the, the first six Premier League games after he joined, as much as anything. It was kind of, I said before releasing the Shackles not having the kind of rigidity of the way that they played maybe under Mourinho and ultimately just kind of the simple factor that player quality does often come to the top in most instances. So if they have the players of that quality in that time, then that kind of carried them through for a little bit and have a bit more freedom to be expressive and obviously they had a good record off the back of that. And then you'd still kind of need a bit of tactical acumen, which he did have, but not a great deal by way of comparison to some to kind of pull you through in the long term. So that's the thing with most managers, it's having both of those and the feel good factor return. But maybe in the long term the tactical acumen wasn't there.

Michael Bailey (24:45)

Let's widen it out to some other interesting caretaker interim managers that there have been. Gareth Southgate took over from Sam Allardyce as England boss. Potentially the most successful caretaker in the modern era. You could say maybe, maybe alongside Brazilian World cup cup winning coach Mario Zagallo in 1970. Or maybe Michael. International football is easier for a caretaker manager.

Michael Cox (25:08)

Yeah, to a certain extent. I think international football is quite caretakery in general. I mean, it's about a five, six week period where you don't necessarily need a philosophy. You probably don't have to be a tactical genius. The players are all together for a month. You've got to get them on board, organise them defensively, sometimes need a bit of luck. Yeah, I think international football management remains something of a mystery almost. So, yeah, I agree. I think it does work and I think Southgate was. If that had been a club situation, I think the Southgate would have been a classic situation where he would have done a great job as a caretaker. And then after a season of week in, week out, people will be saying, no, I'm sorry, we need Thomas Tuchel in here. Now.

Michael Bailey (25:52)

It does feel like international football could be very handy for contract managers. I mean, it probably already is in some places. Liam.

Liam Tham (25:59)

Well, yeah, I'd like to challenge the claim about the most successful kind of caretaker because Lionel Scaloni with Argentina is another great example, obviously now having won a Copa America and a World Cup. But I love the quotes from Diego Maradona when he first got appointed off the back of 2018 World cup after Sampaoli left where Maradona said that Scaloni wouldn't even be able to direct traffic and was unqualified, which I just think is a very funny. Obviously Junior Reed's a bit different in Spanish, but I think it's very, very funny. Yeah, they've done really well. But again, that comes back to what the role is I guess internationally is a little bit different where you're talking about, especially as someone with Scaloni, same as with Southgate, had worked with the youth teams that had then stepped up to the senior side. A lot of that is about maximizing your talent pool. Right. And about the kind of longitudinal or long term work that you do to improve player quality, get more minutes to players in domestic leagues or get players playing abroad, etc. And I think that's a very different role to kind of the immediate short term stuff of a care tech manager at club Internationally. It always feels like your legacy is to kind of make something which can outlive you in that role.

Michael Bailey (26:59)

Anyone else worth mentioning?

Michael Cox (27:02)

Well, I mean, if we're including interims. Sorry to mention the Ralf Rangnick era, but that confused me because people talked about how he would be able to change the playing style and I just don't think that is ever possible for a caretaker manager to go into a successful dressing room. Okay, Manchester United weren't doing as well as they wanted, but these are very high level professional footballers. And to say, you know, you're gonna have to forget everything you've learned and do things my way, but actually I'm not gonna be here in four or five months time. That's just not the job. It just didn't make sense. So, yeah, I think probably we won't have anything like that again in football. I think caretaker managers and interim managers will be about keeping it simple.

Mark Carey (27:41)

We're thinking about potentially really bad ones. At the risk of producer Mike making this into Carey's quiz again, it's time for Kerry's quiz. I don't know whether anyone does know, statistically speaking, the worst record for an interim manager in the Premier League. It is someone, while I buy you all some time, someone who has got zero wins in the 13 games that they took charge of.

Michael Cox (28:06)

Was it that bloke who popped up at Wolves?

Mark Carey (28:09)

Correct.

Michael Cox (28:10)

I thought I was gonna have to.

Mark Carey (28:11)

Do this a bit longer.

Michael Cox (28:12)

Terry Connor.

Mark Carey (28:13)

Terry Connor.

Michael Cox (28:14)

And that was quite sad because it's. They, I mean, they completely bungled that, didn't they? Because they sacked the manager. They tried. They basically couldn't get anyone else in support. Terry Connor, who was very frank, he didn't want the job, just had to end up as the front man for like a doomed team. I do think, yeah, it's funny what Liam says about, you know, how teams don't have a succession plan because I did think on the back of that it was such a prime example of just teams with no plan. I thought Tims got better at it then, but I almost think it's harder to do that now because information seems to leak out everywhere. It's like teams can't work in secret anymore. But yeah, poor old Terry Connor. I think it's clear he didn't want the job.

Mark Carey (28:53)

Yeah and for context, for anyone who doesn't know, this was in the 201112 season after Mick McCarthy was sacked. There was they were hoping for maybe something of a bit of a bounce of sorts and they suffered. Wolf suffered seven consecutive defeats. So yeah, Terry Connors record in the Premier League at least read 13 games played, 0 wins, 4 draws and 9 losses. For those who want to do it as a points per game ratio, that is 0.31 points per game. So statistically speaking, sorry Terry, the worst interim in the Premier League.

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Michael Cox (30:33)

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Michael Bailey (31:22)

We've covered caretakers and interim managers and a Bit about the planning, but what about planning for permanent managers? What makes a manager a good fit for a club? Being a good tactical fit? Is it squad, media management? Where? What should we put it down to, Mark?

Mark Carey (31:39)

Well, this is the thing I think is really interesting and it's in our sort of typical tactics, pod style. It's kind of answering a question with a question. But I did this in a piece this week looking at potential Manchester United managers. I think it starts by asking what is the remit that you have? What is it that you as a club want to achieve? And that's obviously going to be different depending on the club. So I think this is where you talk about things like the sporting director and the broader staff of making sure that in the long term they can answer that question quite clearly and then that will then dictate your answer of what maybe makes a good fit. So, for example, I mean, we've spoken about some of this already, but understanding the club, that might be quite important to some clubs, whether it's in the short term or the long term. Is there more of a focus on style? Maybe that is formation or a bit of a change in formation, as we obviously saw with Ruben Amarim. Is it someone who's maybe a proven winner? You think about Tom Hotspur in, in seasons gone by, moving more towards the Jose Mourinho, Antonio Conte type to make sure that they kind of win now, is it a manager who can overachieve with the resources that they have? You know, maybe got a proven track record of in. In European competition doing better than they should and maybe being a bit of a giant killer at times? Is it an ambassadorial role? So that's maybe more the media management side and being a good sort of face of the club, is it, you know, maybe focusing more on youth, squad building? So many different factors that you can sort of look at. But as I said, I think that's where the role of the sporting director is crucial. And you almost then can't blame the manager. It's not the manager's fault with the Amarim situation, yes, his system didn't work and he was maybe a bit too dogmatic about it, but there's an extent to which it's not truly the manager's fault if he's brought in to be the one to change the style. They knew that from the beginning, that that was what his system was. People can't, in theory, can't then complain about it not necessarily working immediately because that was his remit and it needs to come from the top, the broader collective. And you need alignment from all kind of on that. So hopefully that still does answer the question. But I do think it's very much a. It depends. But the, the it depends answer comes from having clarity at the kind of the board level, the club level, which then dictates who the manager is.

Michael Bailey (33:53)

I feel at this point, Michael, we should maybe define what a project manager is and whether it can work at a big six club or whether it has ever worked at big six club. Project manager is someone who's coming with a lot of things and at those bigger clubs, the pressure doesn't really equate to having time, which I guess is automatically by default what a project manager would need.

Michael Cox (34:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously the managers who tend to stay a long time tends to be because they're being successful. But I mean, I think Man City have had the same manager for 10 years. Klopp was at Liverpool for what, seven and a half years. Arteta's been there over five years. Pochettino had six years, I think at tournament and got them to a level where they're in the Champions League final and challenging for the league. So I mean, I think Chelsea's the exception to, you know, in a lot of ways because I think it just has been a short term club since the Abramovich takeover in 2003, really. And that goes hand in hand with the lack of philosophy and the rest of it. So, yeah, I mean, I think that there's a bit of an issue that I don't think there's that many great managerial candidates around at the moment. And I'm not sure that many teams are looking to appoint someone who is necessarily there for the long term.

Michael Bailey (35:10)

Which is a good point because if we also look at who is being linked to the Manchester United vacancy, we've got names like Oliver Glasner, Unai Emery, both current Premier League managers. Are we looking, Michael, at a period where actually the best managers are already in the Premier League?

Michael Cox (35:26)

Yeah, I think that genuinely is an issue. Iriola, another one, you know, who swapped, I think ro Valu came ninth or 10th in La Liga in his last season and he swapped them for Bournemouth, who at the time were considered a relegation battler. It's like managers are moving to England and taking a step down in the league, whereas if they'd stayed in Spain or Germany or wherever, they probably would have moved to a club who were competing in the Champions League already and maybe then would put them in, you know, more in the frame for a job. Like Manchester United or Chelsea. Now, these names might still be in the frame. And I think there's been murmurs that Manchester United want someone with Premier League experience. I expect that's because 10 Hag and Reuben Amarim didn't had to have Premier League experience and were deemed to have failed. Personally, I think the more successful managers appointed by Premier League clubs tend to be outsiders. It often is their first appointment. And I don't think Premier League experience matters that much anymore. I think in this age of data and scouting and widely available information, I think it's a lot more lot easier to to kind of move beyond the barriers of moving to a different club. Another issue, I think maybe this is a minor thing, but I think English clubs are dominating European competition to an extent that means other managers aren't emerging to the extent maybe they would have in previous years. I mean, you look at the Europa League final last year, Manchester United and Tottenham were massively underachieving the Premier League, but they were still good enough to be the two teams that contested the Europa League final. Now, 15 years ago, Andre versus Boas got the Chelsea job by getting to the Europa League final, winning it. And I just think that is harder for a lot of these managers to kind of put themselves in the frame and say, look, yeah, I'm worth taking a chance on. And I think in terms of where the good managers are, I think it's quite an unusual situation at the moment where there's a lot of managers at a very high level, kind of Champions League finalist level, who are actually in international jobs. And I think if you go back 10 years, there weren't that many of those around. It tended to be, you know, someone like Yogi Love or Gareth Southgate, kind of federation men who'd worked themselves up into that top job. But at the moment you've got Pochettino, Carlo Ancelotti, Thomas Tuchel, Julian Nagelsmann, like coaches who could be in the frame for kind of Manchester United level job who obviously are not going to leave. Now, they might be available in the summer, but I think that, yeah, a lot of them are tied up in international football at the moment.

Michael Bailey (37:46)

Liam and Mark. I'll throw this to you, Liam. First, I guess two questions really, like who is doing well out there beyond the Premier League? And then who should Manchester United appoint? And maybe they're the same answer.

Liam Tham (37:57)

Yeah, I think they're definitely two Venn diagram circles that don't always completely overlap. Someone that I've really enjoyed watching this season. And in fact, once a very Good interim coach. So Psage who's now at Lens, people might remember him as the guy that stepped in to basically save Lyon from relegation and just complete crisis. He actually got the permanent job there after this is at Lyon. He got the permanent job there a year or two ago after keeping them, basically keeping them up and getting them into Europe, then got sacked after being the permanent coach there. From bad results gone to Lons. And they're playing a really good three, four, three, some really good direct stuff. They've got Otson Edouard up top, scoring a lot of goals. They're top of Ligue 1 currently, just ahead of PSG. They probably won't win the league, but they're really overperforming relative to their budget. And they've often been quite a good competitive team high up Ligue 1 without quite ever really that often be in title challenges. But if, you know, after speaking about Man United for a long period of time and a 343 that didn't work, if people want to see one that does work, psaj's Lons are a great example of that.

Mark Carey (38:55)

Yeah. I mean, again, thinking about with my Manchester United hat on, trying to think of managers who have maybe overachieved, rather than necessarily looking at the stylistic fit, look at managers who have overachieved in the past 18 months, two years. And I did a really simple analysis that basically maps a team's points per game and compare that with their squad value relative to the league's average. And I did this across Europe's top seven leagues. And essentially it fits a model to those two variables. And you can see which managers are exceeding expectations based on the resources that they have within their respective league. And those who do pop out can often be seen as kind of overachieving managers. And one that I thought was interesting was Marcelino at Villarreal. He's doing really well this season. Did really well last season as well. They finished fifth and he sort of brought them to a really strong finish, their third this season behind under Real Madrid and Barcelona. And there's something of a simplicity to the way that they play. They play in a pretty rigid, compact 4, 4, 2, kind of in and out of possession, but maybe again with the Manchester United spin on it, the return to a 4, 4, 2 with flying wingers and getting the ball into the box quickly, that might be an attractive prospect for some Manchester United fans. But they're not necessarily kind of possession dominant, which you'd maybe expect, expect or wish for at United. But I do think there's something to be said about how well Marcelino is doing in Spain, it's unlikely that he'd maybe go to Manchester United. He's 60 years old and doing really well with the resources he has there, but definitely one to show how well he's doing on the continent.

Michael Bailey (40:27)

Lastly, and I hope I'm not betraying any confidants here, but in our notes, Liam, where we've asked who Man United should go for, you've put nothing. Oliver Glasner and he was the first name in my head. So where's my head gone wrong?

Liam Tham (40:41)

In a similar way that we've been speaking about Thomas Frank not really fitting at Tottenham. Sure there's differences where Oliver Glassner has coached a Europa League winning team, but he coaches a really specific style that I think is really hard to translate. I'm aware that palace are on a particularly bad run of the season. His way of working is really good at getting, I think, a mid table ish team to overachieve. It's cup football. They play a lot of the time. It's a really specific system. Kind of the same problem that there was with Amorim, which in some extent would mean you might have the squad to play that kind of style, but they tend to be a bit more pragmatic, a bit more defensive, real vertical attacking team, really good offset pieces. I think he would work fine if Manchester United were prepared to play the way that Crystal palace do. And I don't think they want that even if they were going to have success with it. I think you get stuck between that rock and the hard place where you bring in the coach that can coach a really good specific style. You go back to his Frankfurt, that team and how good they were. Didn't lose a game, I think on route to winning the Europa League, but would really blow teams away. I think they had to beat range on penalties to win the final. There's a reason why he works at palace so well and can obviously then work through a, you know, a poor run where they're, they're not winning. It's got them into Europe, but they're struggling in Europe to, to break down low blocks a lot. They haven't made it through the, the top eight of the Conference League. They're struggling now because he likes a small squad which again, you can't really have a big club now and they look kind of knackered because of it. And also the fact that he probably likes to moan a little bit too much about the club and not transfers. So I think there's a few things going on there all at once. But all that said, he's an excellent head coach, just not for Man United I think.

Michael Bailey (42:12)

Well that's why you need to get the fit right and let it be known. I would always trust your judgment Liam over my head, but that is all we have time for today. Huge thank you to Michael, Liam, Mark and producer Mike as well as to you all for listening and getting in touch. A new year, but the same request. Please keep those emails coming. The inbox is always open and the mailbag editions will continue continue through 2026. Simply send your thoughts to tacticspod theathletic.com we will see you again soon and in the meantime, enjoy the football.

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