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- [00:00]
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- [02:06]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventhal. Coming up today, after a painful defeat in the Champions League final, what do Arsenal need to do to close the gap on PSG next season?
- [02:26]
Tom Williams
Gabrielle vs Safov has to go in. Oh, he's missed it. He's missed it.
- [02:40]
James Pearce
It's heartbreaking for Arsenal.
- [02:43]
Adam Leventhal
Soul destroying for Gabrielle. So a lot happened over the weekend. We'll deal with The Champions League final, Arsenal's Premier League winning parade, and also Arne Slot, departing Liverpool. James Pearce is going to be joining us for that a little bit later on. But first up, it's hello to Tom Williams, French football journalist. How are you?
- [03:03]
Tom Williams
Hi. I'm very well, thanks. How are you?
- [03:05]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, all good, all good. And also hello to the Athletics Arsenal correspondent, Art Daroche. How are you?
- [03:13]
Art Daroche
I'm good. I know you probably expecting a different answer, but I'm actually okay. A little bit sleep deprived, but I'm all good.
- [03:21]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. So it's interesting, obviously the defeat in the Champions League final, but then the parade, it's quite a switch in emotions. How was that parade for you, Art?
- [03:30]
Art Daroche
Yeah, I mean, I can only speak as one of the over a million people who are there, so everyone's going to have very different experiences. But for me, it was a joyous occasion, really. I mean, for me, I tried to be as smart as I could with the logistics of everything. So I live in South London, but I stayed in North London on the Saturday night, got my spot quite early on Essex Road, which was meant to be one of the more quiet spots on the nine kilometer route. So I didn't want to be, you know, in with all the busy crowds on Holloway Road. So for me, it was really, really good kind of timing and spacing to get where I was. And to be fair, all the people where I was were very well behaved. There was no trouble in the area where we were. So, yeah, it was a very good day and as you say, quick change of emotions. But I think that had already started the night before, to be fair.
- [04:22]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Obviously you mentioned there were some incidents. There's continued coverage of the news stories, both attached to the Arsenal parade. Also the aftermath in Paris as Well, after Paris St Germain's win in the Champions League final. So you can check that out on the Athletic. But Tom, you were in the mix of it as well because you live, what, near Finsbury Park? So, you know, as an occasion, I suppose it's interesting in terms of the timing, isn't it? Art mentioned the timing there. Are you content with it?
- [04:52]
Tom Williams
Yeah, I mean, I've lived in Finsbury park for the last eight years and the atmosphere around here the last week has just been remarkable. There's just this incredible energy to the place, seeing a lot more Arsenal shirts than ever before, even on, you know, a match day. And yeah, I think, as Art said, yesterday felt very good natured. I think it helped that the parade did come so quickly after Saturday night because it gave everyone involved with Arsenal something to switch their focus to. And of course, you know, for all that, Saturday night went the wrong way from an Arsenal perspective, there is still an awful lot to celebrate from this season. And so I think, actually, although it was a very quick turnaround, I think it probably helped everyone to be able to draw a line beneath what happened in Budapest and very quickly focus on celebrating this historic campaign and sharing that moment with their supporters.
- [05:48]
Adam Leventhal
So Arsenal and their fans moved on, but we are just going to turn the clock back, if that's all right, and reflect on the final. Paris Saint Germain, back to back winners of the Champions League. From the point of view of Arsenal's game plan, now there's been a bit of time for the dust to settle. Could Mikel Arteta have done anything differently?
- [06:07]
Art Daroche
I'm not too sure. And I know a lot of neutrals looking at that game would see, let's say, the possession stats and say, how could you set up this way? But I think any game plan goes out the window when you score that early in the final. Everyone knows that you then have something to hold on to for the rest of the game. And to be fair, as the game ebbed and flowed watching it. So I watched it in the stadium, in the Emirates Stadium, with I think around 30,000 Arsenal fans for a screening, and I didn't feel a nervousness. Even though Arsenal didn't have much of the ball, it was only when Barcola came on and had those two breakaway chances where the stadium was almost stunned into silence. And then, of course, with the penalties. But until then, the only real chances PSG were creating were long shots from outside the box. So from an approach perspective, I didn't feel that there was, I guess, a major uproar among Arsenal people watching the game, even if maybe the neutrals may have wanted to see a game that was more. More open.
- [07:15]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, not mentioned. That possession stat there, 24%, which is the lowest possession in a Champions league final since 2003. 4. And, Tom, from your point of view, the fact that it was so low, did it reflect the fact that Arsenal got that early goal and thought, right, we've got something to defend? Did it almost accentuate a game plan that they were going to use? Probably anyway, but not necessarily as early?
- [07:42]
Tom Williams
Yeah, I think it did. And, you know, as Art said, when you score a goal that early and that unexpectedly, inevitably, you have to change your approach. And I think it would have made for a more interesting game if Arsenal hadn't scored so early. You know, I Think all of us pre game were wondering about what kind of tactics Arsenal would adopt. And you think back to the game against Manchester City at the Etihad a few weeks ago, when Arsenal really flew out of the traps and press City really aggressively caused them an awful lot of problems in the, in the opening half hour. I don't think we would have seen them going after PSG in quite the same way. But you saw even before Kai Havertz scored that there was, there was a desire to get on the front foot. You know, it wasn't a full pitch press, but they were, you know, Arsenal's attacking players were on the edge of the, of the PSG penalty area and then they scored a goal that just falls into their laps and they have to change their approach. So, you know, I think PSG would always have had more of the ball because that is such a big part of their identity. But Arsenal scoring so early and then I think inevitably changing their approach as a consequence of that just meant that, you know, we ended up with these slightly absurd possession statistics. But I agree with our, you know, it's. It's difficult to see how Arsenal could have. Could have gone about that differently. You have to be so careful and that, you know, Arsenal were walking a tightrope and, you know, for most of the time they walked it pretty skillfully. And, you know, ultimately it came down to extremely fine margins, as we saw in the penalty shootout.
- [09:19]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, we'll come to the shootout in a minute, but let's deal with the penalties that we had within the game. Well, one we had, maybe one we should have had, are no complaints over the Paris Saint Germain penalty?
- [09:32]
Art Daroche
No, that's a penalty all day.
- [09:33]
Adam Leventhal
No, fine.
- [09:35]
Art Daroche
Yeah.
- [09:35]
Adam Leventhal
So, yeah, I mean, but in terms of Mikel Arteta being disappointed after the game, he thought that Nuno Mendes had fouled Noni Madueke. What's your view on it? My personal one was I think it was a tough one to give. It seemed a little bit too much of a tussle, or there was a tussle element to it.
- [09:55]
Art Daroche
Yeah. I think what doesn't help Madueke is his arm, you know, locking into Nuno Mendes arm as well, because then you can see why the referee's come to the decision that he has. But for me, with penalties, especially in the Champions League, it's become harder and harder for me to distinguish what is and what isn't. And I don't think that's a good thing for the state of football in general, because when we're coming to A Champions League final and so many penalty calls are debatable. I think it is a real issue. And I know Mikel Arteta said afterwards he'd watched about 72 penalties that were given in the Champions League. Who knows if he's telling the truth? Maybe he isn't. But if he had watched that many and he said he could easily see that being given. I do see his point, but in real time, I guess what was most shocking was it didn't seem to go to Var in the stadium anyway, with an actual referee check. Anyway, I think that was what a lot of people inside the Emirates were waiting for.
- [11:03]
Adam Leventhal
What was your take on it, Tom?
- [11:04]
Tom Williams
Yeah, I mean, it was one of those that I think if the referee had given it, the Var would not have intervened and overturned it. Instinctively, it looked like a penalty, but then as soon as you started seeing the replays, you saw the fact that they were in this tangle, they had their arms locked together. It wasn't completely clear cut. So, yeah, I think it was fair enough in the end.
- [11:23]
Adam Leventhal
So we got all the way to penalties and in the end it was pain for Arsenal. Gabriel missing the decisive penalty. How do you think that that moment will be felt? Let's kick it forward to when Gabriel is back amongst his Arsenal teammates after the World Cup. You know, whatever happens in the World cup is almost immaterial because it's about how much this moment can galvanize Arsenal.
- [11:51]
James Pearce
Art.
- [11:52]
Art Daroche
Yeah. I think for Gabriel, when you look at his journey and pathway through Arsenal since joining in 2020, a lot of people who are neutrals may see him now as this defender who's ultra consistent, barely makes any mistakes. But when you look at his early time at the club, there were quite a few rash moments. Like, I remember he got sent off against Manchester City for a really stupid foul on the halfway line against Gabriel Jesus, coincidentally. And he had these little moments where fans anyway, would be quite unsure about how they felt about him. And he hasn't had one of those moments for a while. But going into the parade yesterday, before we talk about the players just walking around at, let's say, 10, 11 o', clock, I walked past this little family and as I was walking past, Gabrielle's chant was started the other side of the street. And then the mum in the family says, we're going to need to sing that a lot today. And when the bus came through the Essex Road area, that's the first chant that started. And I think from a fan perspective, there is a really big, I guess, conscious effort to make sure, he still feels loved and I'm sure that's the same with his teammates. And we saw Marquinhos was the first player to console him afterwards. And I think going into next year, there is a lot of talk about Payne fuelling fire for future successes. But I think there'll be a motivation within himself anyway to put that right. And I'm sure he will do. Because if you look at not just the final, but Arsenal's Champions League run throughout the season, he's been one of their best performers.
- [13:31]
Adam Leventhal
And Tom, I mean, Art mentioned the moment with Marquinhos at the end. That's an iconic moment, isn't it already? You can imagine, you know, the pictures just will stand the test of time.
- [13:41]
Tom Williams
Yeah, it was a beautiful moment. Obviously, you know, Marquinhos and Gabriela are Brazil teammates, but I think what Marquinhos would have had uppermost in his own mind was the fact that he knows what that feels like. He was the fall guy when Brazil lost on penalties to Croatia at the last World Cup. And there is no bigger event in football than Brazil going out of a World Cup. And when you're the guy that's responsible, that's something that you have to live with for the rest of your life. And Marquinhos has been there. So it was a very, you know, very tender moment. And, you know, Marquinhos has been applauded for that. There was an article about that moment in today's edition of l' Equipe with that fantastic photograph that we saw in a lot of the front pages of the British newspapers yesterday morning. So, yeah, a very tender moment. And I kind of feel like football deals better with penalty misses than perhaps it used to. Obviously, in this country, England fans have had their own traumas over the years, but, you know, we've always known that people who miss penalties shouldn't be blamed. And I think there is, you know, generally, and as Art was saying, talking about the response from the Arsenal fans, a feeling that those players do need support and, you know, do need a bit of extra attention. I think the fact that Marquinhos first instinct, having just won the Champions League for the second time in a row, was to go over to his international teammate and try and comfort him. I thought that was very powerful.
- [15:03]
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- [18:45]
Art Daroche
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- [19:22]
Adam Leventhal
We'll deal with what this actually means for Paris Saint Germain in a moment and for Luis Enrique in particular because he's up there with the greats now in terms of Champions League wins. But let's focus in on what it means for Arsenal. Art in terms of the tactical approach winning the Premier League, that has been vindicated and we've seen that they've only just fallen short by virtue of that penalty from Gabriel in the Champions League. Do you think that there's a feeling now that they need to evolve, do something differently? Or can it be let's just crack on, let's just continue on this path and maybe next year we might not have to come up against Paris Saint Germain in the final. It might be someone else and we can do what we did again and do as we do normally.
- [20:10]
Art Daroche
I do think there will be a sense of wanting to evolve from Mikel Arteta because we've seen that even though people may see the football now and say I was boring or they like to see it being a bit more fun, there has been evolution to get to this point where Aust can win the Premier League because if you look at their first title challenge under Arteta 2223 that season, the football was very entertaining, probably the most entertaining in the league. But all the Premier League teams adapted, started to restrict space that Arsenal could or couldn't play in anymore and they had to adapt themselves. So I think when you're looking at how they've grown in the Premier League compared to the Champions League, the Champions League most of the time has been where they've still been able to play slightly more free flowing football. So I think there will be an element of that next season. But when you look at PSG and how they were able to perform not just in this final but throughout the Champions League, the one thing that Arteta has spoken about is the individual moments and I think that's something he'll look to provide more of within his team. I think he has some players that can already do that. You look at Eze and Odegaard, they played so little football together this season and I think that's something that is maybe an in house solution already. But then when you look at the transfer market, I think those links to Morgan Rodgers make sense when you look at how they can really evolve with players who are maybe more individualistic in the final third and able to do things that aren't as predictable in those areas.
- [21:48]
Adam Leventhal
Are there any other upgrades that do you think that are on the agenda for Arsenal?
- [21:53]
Art Daroche
Yeah, I think that the main one would be looking at that left wing area just because Martinelli and Trossard are in the final couple of years of their contract. So that would mean there's a logical decision to be made with both of them. And when you're looking across the squad, I think you've got to look at right back as well because even though Ben White and Jurrien Timber are very good players, I think Ben White's someone who's had a lot of injury problems in the last couple of years. He is a fan favorite at Arsenal, but I think there would be almost an acceptance if the time is now to part ways and then look for a bit more depth there. Then you look at centre forward. I know it sounds strange to say, but Gabriel J. Zeus is a player in a similar position to Ben White where he's had a lot of injuries in the last couple of years and is getting towards the end of a contract. So I think getting more players to supplement the already existing players would be the plan of action, I believe.
- [22:54]
Adam Leventhal
Tom, let's switch on to Paris Saint Germain and Luis Enrique. I mentioned, you know, up there with the, with the greats now he's, he's on three Champions League wins back to back obviously with, with Paris Saint Germain. Just a word about the, the job that he has done within that dressing room with footballers and personalities and a team that's able to stay humble, ignore all the money and the finance and all that for a minute. And I know that it's almost impossible
- [23:21]
Tom Williams
to separate the two, because it does help, but.
- [23:23]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, it really does help. But what he has been a master at, it seems, is the soft skills, but also a hard edge.
- [23:33]
Tom Williams
Yeah. And I think his appointment by PSG coincided with a realization within the club that something needed to change fundamentally, because they tried the Galacticos model and it hadn't got them over the line in the Champions League, which is the one thing that they, you know, were desperate to do ever since the Qatari owners came in in 2011. And they'd had, you know, years of stockpiling these superstar players, and it hadn't. It hadn't worked out in that respect. And so you go back to Luis Enrique's introductory press conference, and Nasir Al Khalifi, the PSG president, is sitting alongside him, and he said, we've stopped thinking about the Champions League. We're not obsessed by it anymore. We need to change the culture in the club. Luis Enrique is the boss, and he's going to be given all the time that he needs to bring his style of football to the club. So it was a real shift in emphasis. And Luis Enrique was given more powers than any of his predecessors as PSG coach. It helped that he only had one season with Kylian Mbappe, that Messi left, that Neymar left. So, you know, you didn't have those big egos in the changing room. You had a slightly more pliable group of players to work with. And, yeah, he's, you know, sort of used carrot and stick in pretty much equal measure, or at least he did to begin with. And I think as the players realized how much fun it was to play with him and how much success they could have playing his kind of football. It's been much more carrot and a lot less stick. You know, we've not had any real incidents this season of players overstepping the line. There was one occasion where Ousmane Dembele was publicly critical of some of his teammates, which raised eyebrows a little bit. That was about it. You know, no one else is rocking the boat. No one's creating waves. The players who aren't in the starting 11, you know, seem to be accepting of that. And so you've got everyone pulling in the same direction. And, you know, Luis Enrique is the fundamental architect of that. And I think an awful lot of it just boils down to the kind of Football that he's got PSG playing.
- [25:46]
Adam Leventhal
Now, I want you to unpack all of this for me and I'll say a lot of things to you and you can just try and make sense of it all. I suppose it's one in the eye for those who said that the Club World cup, anyone that goes the distance in that is going to be burnt out in the season. So there's that element to it which I'm interested in. Then you have the element of Paris Saint Germain are competing in a league that if they don't win, it would be just ridiculous and totally unexpected. Then you have a huge amount of finances, which makes it easier for them to upgrade their squad. So is the job that Luis Enrique is doing, is it as remarkable as it seems because he is also generating great football, or are lots of things in his favour to do that?
- [26:36]
Tom Williams
I mean, there's clearly an awful lot of things that are in his favor. And you look at where PSG are now, the best team in Europe, one of the best teams I think we've seen in the last 20, 25 years. They play fantastic football and you kind of think, well, yeah, like that's exactly where they should be. Look at how much money they have. Look at the enormous advantages they have compared to their domestic rivals. If anything, they should have just got here sooner. I think what shows you that Luis Enrique deserves credit is that an awful lot of managers came before him and benefited from similar advantages in terms of PSG's wealth and resources and talented players and go got nowhere near achieving what he achieved. So I think you can separate the, you know, PSG's enormous material advantages from the success that Luis Enrique has brought to the club. Because if it was simply a case of throwing a load of money at it, PSG would have got there sooner. So, you know, he, he does deserve credit for, for the role that he's played. The Club World cup element is interesting because it's pretty remarkable that, I mean, just the fact that PSG were able to field the exact same outfield 10 against Arsenal as they had in last season's final, that would be pretty remarkable in any circumstances. I think it's only happened once before in the Champions League era with Zinedine Zidanes, Real Madrid. But when you factor in that PSG didn't really strengthen their squad last summer, they change goalkeepers. Jean Luigi Donnarumma goes out, Luca Chevalier comes in. As it turns out, Chevalier isn't yet ready for that role. So he hasn't, you know, he's Lost his place in the starting 11. The only other player they bought was Ilia Zabanyi from Bournemouth as backup to Marquinhos. He's played quite a lot, notably in Ligue 1. Hasn't always been massively convincing otherwise. It's exactly the same squad. They had a three week break after the Club World cup and then straight into the season. No preseason, no preseason friendlies. They had so many injury problems over the first half of the campaign. You know, Dembele, the muscular problems he used to have all the time at Barcelona, suddenly resurfacing. Desira Due had a spell on the sidelines. There were an awful lot of players in those first six months of the season who struggled physically and PSG looked a million miles away from where they needed to be at the turn of the year. And then suddenly it all just came together. And I think the fact that they have these advantages means that they can rest players in Ligue 1. They were in a real title race this season. Lance pushed them really hard and only fell away with about two or three weeks of the season to go. And that was a complicating factor because they weren't able to rotate as freely as they had before that. But yeah, I think, you know, PSG support staff and the medical teams deserve credit for helping the team to peak at the right time in the same way they did last season. Although there again you find yourself coming full circle and thinking, well, given all the money they have and given the resources they have and the incredible training facilities they benefit from, they should be capable of doing that. So, yeah, you do kind of find yourself chasing your tail a little bit when you're talking about psg.
- [29:36]
Adam Leventhal
Just one final one to Art, if I may. In terms of what Mikel Arteta makes of what Luis Enrique is doing, I presume he will be jealous of the financial input that he gets and backing. Albeit Arsenal did spend a fair whack of money over the last couple of seasons. But do you think that he and other managers are now looking at Luis Enrique as someone that they need to start to be more like, or is that impossible to do?
- [30:04]
Art Daroche
I think with Mikel Arteta, he always is very open about his admiration for other managers. People obviously make the pep comparison, but he's spoken very glowingly about David Moyes. And if you look at David Moyes and Luis Enrique, they're probably very different football managers. But I think the big thing and we spoke about earlier with Arteta is being adaptable and being able to evolve. And people may not see that as evolving if the football isn't great. But his big thing is making Arsenal competitive and I think at times that means by necessity you have to maybe be a bit more compact, maybe play a bit more safely to keep yourselves in the game a bit more. When it comes to looking at Luis Enrique, I do believe there are maybe elements of the way PSG play that he would like to almost implement in England if he can, sort of. When he was speaking after the final in his press conference, he spoke about the need to be ambitious but also be quick with the ambition. So I'm really interested to see how that materializes because as you said before, Adam, there has been a backing of him in the past couple of windows, especially last summer when they bought eight summer signings. That hasn't been done before at Arsenal. So I do feel there is a recognition from Arteta that there is more that needs to be done to make that final step in the Champions League. But I do think that they should be able to do it because when you look at their progression since returning to the competition, they've gone from quarterfinals to the semifinals to a final. And I think if you're looking at it from just a logistic point of view, you could very much see them getting back to a final at least. Even though it's not a guarantee. The way they've built over the last few years shows that they're able to make those steps continually.
- [31:57]
Adam Leventhal
Well, Art, thank you very much to you. You're going to fly away. Tom is going to stay with us because next we're going to be talking about Liverpool and Arne Slot's departure. But thanks Art.
- [32:06]
Art Daroche
Cheers.
- [32:12]
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- [36:00]
Adam Leventhal
So the other huge story that occurred over the weekend was Liverpool sacking manager Arne Slot. When everyone was trying to focus on the Champions League final, Liverpool acted and James Pearce, the Athletics Liverpool correspondent, has joined Tom and myself to discuss this. I suppose that the timing was a surprise, but the mood music was pointing towards yeah, they might make a change.
- [36:26]
James Pearce
Yeah, I think you're right. You know, the timing was certainly a shock in terms of, you know, obviously they allowed the dust to settle, you know, a week after the end of the season. It was certainly a shock to to Slot himself. I know from speaking to people close to him over the weekend he didn't see it coming. He thought he would be given the chance to put right what had gone so wrong over the course of the season. He'd even lined up Etienne Reignan to join the club from Feyenoord as a new assistant manager. And I think it was only really probably the middle to latter part of next week when certainly it became clear that Liverpool weren't in any rush to kind of ratify that appointment and that contract hadn't been signed that you started to think, well actually yeah, there may well be something going on here. And then ultimately that has led to Michael Edwards and Richard Hughes pulling the plug on Saturday morning. So yeah, ultimately I think he has paid the price for the fortunes, absolutely nose diving over the last 12 months from the higher win in the Premier League title to finishing fifth with just 60 points. And yes, he salvaged Champions League qualification. But you know, unfortunately it was pretty torrid during the run in not just in terms of results but probably more importantly for him in terms of his future performances.
- [37:46]
Adam Leventhal
There's an inside read about the decision to get rid of Arna Slot, which I'm sure was a delight for you to have to pull together over the weekend when you weren't necessarily expecting it, James, in terms of the decision making process behind it. Just take us into some of the key details from that that people can read on the Athletic how the decision came about.
- [38:08]
James Pearce
Yeah, I think the first thing to say is a senior figure that I spoke to said this was a decision we really didn't want to make, but ultimately it was one we simply felt we had to. It was genuine, you know, the repeated kind of backing a slot at various points during the season when the team was really struggling on the field that, you know, there was genuine respect and admiration for how he dealt with the tragic loss of Diogo Jota last summer and the challenge of trying to pick up the pieces and guide the club through that. You know, there was, you know, sympathy for some of the recruitment decisions hadn't paid off, that new signings had either been injured or hadn't been able to make the kind of quick impact that anyone hoped. You know, there was also sympathy in terms of dealing with, you know, the Salah situation, the breakdown in, in that relationship and established stars form falling off a cliff really. But I certainly got the impression when I spoke to people over the weekend that the mood had shifted during those last couple of weeks of the season. You know, someone pointed me the direction. You look at where they were at in late April when they, they won the Merseyside Derby, they beat Crystal palace at home. Suddenly there was that injection of positivity and it was like now can they go on and give someone something to believe in going into the summer. And unfortunately Slot wasn't able to do that because there was a horrendous defeat at Old Trafford, you know, a real morale sapping draw with Chelsea at Anfield when slot was subjected to the biggest show of dissent from Anfield shown their manager since the latter days of Roy Hodgson's reign in 2010 11. Then you had they crumbled in defeat at Villa park and then a pretty lifeless draw with Brentford on the final day. And I think ultimately when they reviewed everything in that week after the season, we know how much emphasis Liverpool place on data and the data was pretty grim in terms of the way that performances were heading and unfortunately he hadn't been able to find solutions to all the problems that had dogged Liverpool. And they felt that the mood amongst the fan base and in the dressing room meant that a change just had to be made. And I think also they probably have learned lessons from what happened with Brendan Rodgers a decade ago where, you know, they kind of stuck by him after a really tough season yet that negativity you just couldn't shift and it rolled on into the next season and they had to make a change in the October and of course Liverpool knew if they were to do the same this time around, the candidates available for the job just wouldn't. You wouldn't be able to kind of select from the same kind of ones in October than you would this summer.
- [40:48]
Adam Leventhal
And James, you mentioned, you know, a bad defeat, a damaging defeat against Manchester United. Tom, I suppose they probably also had in their mind the Liverpool hierarchy. What happened with Erik Ten Hag, you know, they stuck with him at Old Trafford when they probably should have got rid of him and it then just eats into your next season. So if in doubt, get him out. However harsh it is and however strong the mitigating circumstances were. What's your take on it Tom? Do you think it was too harsh or not?
- [41:21]
Tom Williams
I mean it's very surprising to see a title winning manager sacked only a year later. But I think you know, well before Liverpool reached the end of the current campaign last season was being continually reassessed this narrative that it was kind of Jurgen Klopp's last title as opposed to Arus slots first kind of started to emerge a little bit in that slot. Inherited a squad from Klopp that hadn't changed at all. The only new signing was Federico Chiesa. Obviously you know, there was a change to the kind of football that Liverpool played and they did become a slightly more, more patient team. But yeah, you know, I just think that the decline in performance levels was so stark that it was impossible to be, to be surprised by the news. And I think in particular possibly the most remarkable element of this story which I just keep like going back to is that Mo Salah Instagram post. It's so unusual to see a departing player with a legacy as enormous as Salah's taking a potshot at the manager that he's leaving behind in that way and you know, seemingly being supported in that by at least half two thirds of the Liverpool changing room to go by the likes on the post and you know, we occasionally get carried away analyzing what players are liking on social media. Every one of those likes felt like a very pointed decision. You know, in particular this idea that Salah articulated that you know, Liverpool Football club have to play a certain kind of football and it has to be aggressive front foot pressing, heavy football and not what Arne Slot was trying to do. And it was impossible not to look at that. And the apparent support that he had in doing that from people in the changing room and think, well, the players clearly just are not buying into this at all. And that again is just another factor I think that ultimately led to Slot's demise.
- [43:34]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, and James, I suppose Mo Salah was able to shoot from the, from the hip basically because he knew that he was going to be out of the building, however, you know, destructive it was. I suppose the Liverpool hierarchy could have maybe sort of taken what he was saying with it with a pinch of salt, but they certainly didn't ignore it, did they?
- [43:53]
James Pearce
They didn't. Although I don't think for a minute that that Salah post had any impact on the decision that the Edwards and Hughes made because they also knew that Mo Salah on his way out the door had an axe to grind because Arne Slott was the man who had dropped him last November and left him out the team when he felt that they needed to go down a different route in terms of trying to get some solidity back into it. And I think we need to be careful about players liking post because we also know that most players don't even control their social media accounts. When I did an interview with Florian Wirtz in the last week of the season, I asked him, I said to him, do you realize by liking it, lots of people have interpreted that as you're siding with Salah against the manager? And he said, oh no, no, no, no, that isn't the case that I liked it because I thought the sentiment was absolutely right. This season has been completely and utterly unacceptable and Liverpool standards have to be higher. So, you know, people will judge for themselves whether that was. That was speaking from the heart or not. But I think also it's important to say that Slot said himself at repeated times, this isn't the football that he wanted to play. You know, it wasn't like he was kind of saying, well, this is. No, this is, you know, people are going to have to get used to it. This is how I want Liverpool to play football. It was. I actually asked him after the game against Chelsea when there was such a torrent of abuse and boos and jeers in his direction. I said, you know, what happened in that first half when you were one nil up, you had momentum and your team completely took their foot off the gas and at Anfield was, you know, the sense of unrest and anxiety, like the sight of players putting their foot on the ball and slowing the game down when it was like, well, no, Chelsea are so vulnerable. Go for the jugular. And he kind of initially gave quite a Sarcastic response in terms of, oh yeah, no, that's exactly what I told them to do. And then said, well, of course I don't. He said, you know, that isn't. That wasn't the game plan, that wasn't the way we wanted to do things. And he would argue that of course the way he wanted to play football was hampered by injuries, by players losing form, by new signings, still adapting to the demands of the Premier League. But unfortunately, you know, that faith in him just ebbed away and, you know, there was friction behind the scenes in terms of in the dressing room and you only had to see, you know, the negativity at Anfield and the empty seats, which quite often does for a Liverpool manager as well towards the end of his reign when people just give up hope late on in games. And unfortunately for Arne Slot, that's what happened.
- [46:32]
Adam Leventhal
Obviously. I mean, you've mentioned one of them, you know, when he got a little bit eggy in a press conference afterwards. But on the whole he was very dignified throughout and he had to deal with those potshots that we've mentioned from Mo Salah in particular. And he's written a statement in the Liverpool Echo this Monday morning. And I suppose that Klaas does come through when he said, change is part of football, but I know that this club will continue to make its people proud. Do you think any of the fans will feel, oh, maybe we should have given him a little bit more chance here, or do you think that now he's come and said, yep, fair enough, maybe it was time for a change, he can actually be held up higher once again. James, the fact that he did win
- [47:17]
James Pearce
a title, yeah, I think in time what he did at Liverpool will look a lot better than maybe everyone feels about it now. Because I think the more that time passes, people appreciate that this was a guy when lots of people were not prepared to take on that challenge. Because everyone said, you know, you don't want to be the person after Jurgen Klopp. You want to be the guy after the person who comes after Jurgen Klopp. But Slot backed himself. And I do think some of the kind of rewriting of history in terms of what he just won it with Klopp's team. I don't think that's fair because for a start, Klopp didn't win it with Klopp's team in his last season and Liverpool fell away. You know, he elevated a lot of those players that he inherited and people did buy into his methods and he was Regarded as a breath of fresh air at the time in terms of a new way of doing things. So his place in Liverpool's history books is secure in terms of he was the man that brought home, you know, the 20th top flight league title, you know, only the second man, you know, after Jurgen Klopp since 1990. And yeah, I don't think anything that's happened over the last 12 months kind of should take away from that.
- [48:26]
Adam Leventhal
But football moves on very quickly and you know, every expectation now is that the former Bournemouth boss andone Iriola is going to be taking over. James, what can you tell us as of what, 10:20 Monday morning?
- [48:40]
James Pearce
Yeah, everything points to Iriola becoming Liverpool's next head coach. We know that there's a close bond there between the Spaniard and Richard Hughes, Liverpool sporting director of course, three years ago Hughes appointed him at Bournemouth. You know, I think it was telling in, you know, some of the people I spoke to over the weekend this kind of belief that the change was being made with a view to. They talked about wanting to play a more front foot, aggressive and urgent brand of football and I think Iriola ticks that box. I think there's bound to be questions asked about. Well, it's a huge step up, you know. Yes, he's, he's done brilliantly in three years at Premier League management but the pressure, scrutiny and expectation of billing a Liverpool manager is a world away from managing Bournemouth. And of course it's different as well when you're only managing one, one game a week rather than having the added demands of European football. And he doesn't have that kind of Champions League pedigree. But I can understand why Liverpool have decided he is the man for them. He's also available. You know, there's so much to sort out this summer in terms of the squad. Things shouldn't be protracted. You know, we understand that those talks are now underway. Everything at the moment points to him
- [49:55]
Adam Leventhal
arriving in Anfield And Tom, it's interesting that, you know, it's so common nowadays for a sporting director to try and get their guy in and you know, strong relationships can make things happen. So I guess we should have no surprise that Andoni Arriola, who was for quite a long time considering he made his decision to leave with a couple of months of the season still to go. We knew that he was going to be wanted but he's bided his time very, very well, hasn't he? And do you think that this will work for Liverpool?
- [50:27]
Tom Williams
I mean on paper he Ticks an awful lot of boxes, you know, particularly the kind of football that he got that Bournemouth team playing. I mean I think probably one of the most impressive pressing units in the Premier League and a team with one of the strongest playing identities in the Premier League. There is always a risk. A manager leaves a club of Bournemouth stature to join a club of Liverpool stature. And it's not always possible to perfectly replicate what you were doing at your former club. I mean it's not an ideal comparison for all manner of reasons but you know, we saw that with Thomas Frank at Tottenham. I mean Tottenham a million miles away from, from Liverpool in terms of the success of, of how things are managed on the sporting side. But a big club, bigger expectations and Frank was incapable of replicating the football that he had had got Brentford playing and that had brought success to Brentford. But I don't think that Erola, you know, will encounter the same level of problems. And you sense that there is probably an appetite for Liverpool to get back to playing that kind of football after this season of slightly stodgy football. This sense of not really seeing an evolution week to week in where the team was supposed to be going. It does feel like the circumstances require a manager who's going to come in with a very clear game plan. And the fact that the players have been so far below the levels that we were accustomed to the previous season makes you think that they will be ready and they will be receptive to a new manager coming in with a more positive message and with a more proactive footballing identity that he's trying to, that he's trying to get across.
- [52:15]
Adam Leventhal
So Tom thinks that the squad will be receptive. Is the squad capable of playing that football in your eyes, James?
- [52:22]
James Pearce
Yeah, I believe, I believe they are, yeah. I mean there's no doubt that it's a squad in need of some pretty significant surgery this summer. When you look at where Liverpool ended the season and of course, you know, waving goodbye to Salah and to Andy Robertson since then, you know, we've had confirmation that Ibrahima Konate is leaving. So there is a lot to sort out. I mean you look at the top end of the pitch, Tom mentions then about you know, Iriola's pressing game and of course that would, that that completely fits with what, that's what Liverpool fans want to see from their team. They want to see them on the front foot and in opponents faces and that just didn't happen last season. There are questions over someone like you know, is that, is that Esac's way of playing, you know, he's probably going to have to adapt to the new manager's methods, but they're also going to have to buy players that fit that way of playing. I mean, buying pace and width out wide is the biggest priority they've got in the transfer market this summer. Buying that Salah replacement, you know, we know they're very, very keen on Jan Diamandi at Leipzig, but also in terms of legs and physicality in midfield, that hurt Liverpool so much last season. With someone like Mac Allister's form falling off a cliff, you know, not having a right back essentially for pretty much the whole season because of Conor Bradley's injury situation and then having to move a midfielder into right back, you know, that that hurt them. You know, you've got two really young centre backs in the mix now in terms of Giovanni Leone coming back from an ACL and Jeremy Jacques coming in from Rennes as a £60 million signing. But of course, both of them completely, you know, unproven in the Premier League up to this point. So, yeah, I think, I think the players will be receptive to change because I think, you know, having that kind of fresh start, I think the players will absolutely embrace that and embrace a new manager and, and, and also play in the kind of football that they want to play themselves.
- [54:12]
Adam Leventhal
Well, James, really appreciate your time. I didn't expect to see you so soon back again on the podcast and we may well see you again very soon when the news is confirmed.
- [54:23]
James Pearce
Cheers, guys.
- [54:24]
Adam Leventhal
Big thanks to Art earlier on and to Tom. Thank you very much for your insight today.
- [54:30]
Tom Williams
You're welcome.
- [54:31]
Adam Leventhal
Thanks to you for listening, for watching on YouTube as well. Now we're going to be back on Thursday for our special World cup draft show where our panelists will pick the best team that they can from the last 10 tournaments. So look forward to that. Then on Friday, we've got a trip down memory lane for you as well, bringing you the athletics top 10 World cup moments. You're getting the theme here, aren't you? Because from next Monday, we're going to be in full World cup mode as we gear up to the start of the tournament on June 10, which will be huge for the Athletic coverage in the States, in Canada and Mexico, and also keeping you in touch with all of the domestic news around the UK and Europe as well. So there's a lot to look forward to on the Athletic. We'll catch you on the next one.
- [55:25]
Sponsor Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive Producer Producer is AD Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, Search for the Athletic Wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production. This episode of the Athletic FC is brought to you by Hotels.com when you're booking a hotel, here's a simple question. Why wouldn't you use hotels.com it really is all in the name. As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unless, like some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So whether you're planning a grand adventure to follow your national team around North America this summer, or whisking your special someone away for an escape because you've been glued to the football for weeks, make sure to book@hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's simple. Hotels.com it's all in the name.
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