What now for Tuchel and England?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast – July 16, 2026

Episode: What Now for Tuchel and England?
Hosts: Adam Leventhal, Adam Crafton, Reuben Pinder (with reporting from Jack Pitt-Brooke, David Ornstein, Felipe Cardenas)
Location: Live from New York

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Episode Overview

This episode is an emotional deep-dive and post-mortem following England's heartbreaking late defeat to Argentina in the World Cup semi-final. The panel explores Thomas Tuchel’s controversial tactics, the team’s psychological and cultural patterns, what it means for English football’s present and future, and how fans and experts are processing another exit. The team also looks at Argentina’s clinical comeback and what comes next for both Tuchel and key players such as Harry Kane, with insights from on-the-ground correspondents and fan reactions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Fallout from England’s Defeat

• The group describes the recording as a “therapy session” ([03:09]) — the mood across the panel and England fans is one of deep disappointment and familiarity with such exits.
• Fans describe feeling “deflated” and “numb” ([23:51]), with one saying, “I don’t think I’ve actually ever cried before after a game, but I did” ([23:57], England fan).

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2. Tuchel’s Tactical Approach and Criticism

The Azteca Plan and Defensive Changes

• Jack Pitt-Brooke (05:00):
  “This is what Thomas Tuchel chose. England weren’t forced back necessarily, but he chose to go back to the Azteca plan… England offered nothing at all… camped in giving Lionel Messi so much space it almost felt inevitable Argentina would win.”
  [05:00]
• Tuchel’s substitutions were “proactive changes that made things worse for England.”
• Implementation of a very defensive approach — reminiscent of previous managers but more intentional and less justified given the match context.

Panel Reactions

• Adam Crafton:
  “Real bravery on a football pitch is taking the ball, keeping the ball… being strong enough to say we are… 70 to 100 million pound players… able to pass the ball to each other… against an Argentina team that wasn’t doing very much until they were invited to do so.”
  [06:00]

• Reuben Pinder:
  “These performances… felt more intentionally defensive than what Southgate teams did… Appointment of Tuchel was meant to bring an end to that era and turn England into more of a protagonist team… but it takes more than one cycle and a German manager saying, ‘let’s go win the World Cup,’ to undo that psychological instinct.”
  [07:39]

• Adam Leventhal:
  Laying out the stats: “26 passes as an entire team from the moment that Gordon gave England the lead… They lost their minds and they didn’t have a coach on the touchline to settle them or to come up with a better plan.”
  [13:27]

• The consensus: Tuchel, regarded as a knockout expert with tactical X-factor, made England even more cautious and lost trust with fans and possibly players.

Notable Fan Quotes ([23:51–25:18])

• “You can’t play that much of a defensive game against a team like Argentina.”
• “He didn’t have enough attacking players on the pitch.”
• “There should have been more change, especially after Argentina scored. We didn’t make it.”

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3. Cultural and Psychological Themes

• The hosts discuss the entrenched “English psyche” of retreating when in the lead, regardless of who the manager is.
  “It feels like the narrative arc of the game was very familiar from the Southgate games… but this one… feels more intentional” — Reuben Pinder ([17:58]).
• Raises questions about how much an external manager can change deep-seated habits in the time available between internationals.
• Adam Crafton: “Are we letting the players off? I think he didn’t give the players a chance to win the game.” ([21:24])

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4. Tuchel’s Future and the FA’s Response

• Adam Crafton: States the FA want to make it “known that Tuchel retains the confidence of their CEO, Mark Bullingham.”
  [27:51]
• Discussion that Tuchel’s contract has been extended to EURO 2028, but that trust has been damaged with the public.
• Points out the debate around foreign vs. domestic managers: “The idea that there isn’t an English coach out there that could have done what Tuchel has done over this tournament is now a much harder argument to make.”
  [31:28]

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5. How Did Argentina Do It? Insights from Felipe Cardenas

• Argentina are “inevitable” and played with belief. The crowd's energy and Messi's ability to change a game in moments were decisive.
  Felipe Cardenas ([46:50]):
  “When you sit back and give him [Messi] the ball and give him space and let his teammates buzz around him, he will punish you. And that’s exactly what he did… Lionel Scaloni… told reporters after the game they ‘smelled blood and they went for it’ when they got England sat back and decided to defend.”

• Adam Crafton on the final:
  “You have a rational, cold team in Spain… and then you have this electricity and emotion from Argentina… to see those two contrasts collide will be really interesting.”
  [48:38]

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6. Player Focus: Harry Kane and the Next Cycle

• Harry Kane is non-committal on future World Cups, but remains key for next year’s (2028) Euros.
  David Ornstein ([36:28]): “He said representing England has been his pride, his joy… too early to say whether he will pull on the shirt at this level again.”

• Adam Crafton:
  “You worry what would happen when he’s not there… England have to build a team that enables their best players, Kane and Bellingham, to excel… I don’t think people come away from this tournament thinking Harry Kane’s done.”
  [38:57]

• Reuben Pinder:
  “None of those England teams get as far as they do without him… It’s a decision England have to make: if Kane’s going to continue to play, which he deserves… but long term, what you want to avoid is a Ronaldo situation.”
  [40:36]

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7. Fitness and Squad Management

• England’s lack of fit key players (e.g., Declan Rice, Bukayo Saka) is highlighted as an under-discussed factor.
  Reuben Pinder:
  “We saw Bellingham have to play as an eight too often. The Premier League aspect… how tired these players are going into the tournament is maybe underplayed in the post-mortem.”
  [44:03]

• Questioning exclusion of depth options like Kobbie Mainoo, especially given fatigue in midfield.

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Memorable Quotes

• Jack Pitt-Brooke: “England camped in giving Lionel Messi so much space that it almost felt inevitable that Argentina would win the game in 90 minutes.” [05:00]
• Adam Leventhal: “He didn’t park the bus, he built a bus garage. It was ridiculous.” [17:20]
• David Ornstein: (On England’s mood) “They were devastated, shell shocked, crestfallen, and as Dan Byrne described it, still numb at exactly what had just happened.” [36:28]
• Felipe Cardenas: “When you sit back and give him [Messi] the ball and give him space and let his teammates buzz around him, he will punish you.” [46:50]
• Adam Crafton: “These guys [Argentina], they go on holiday together… barbecues together. They worship Messi… when England dare tackle him, they come as a pack.” [20:04]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:01 – Panel opens from New York; mood after Argentina-England
• 05:00 – Jack Pitt-Brooke match report; Tuchel’s “Azteca plan” criticized
• 07:39 – Discussion: Parallels and differences with Gareth Southgate era
• 13:27 – Stat: England’s 26 passes after taking the lead; recurring retreat
• 17:20 – "Parked the bus"/"bus garage" debate; Tuchel’s intent
• 23:51 – England fan reactions and venting
• 27:51 – FA’s early support for Tuchel; whether the tournament is a “success”
• 31:28 – Debate on necessity and effectiveness of a foreign manager
• 36:28 – David Ornstein summarizes player reactions and Kane’s outlook
• 38:57 – Harry Kane’s future and legacy
• 44:03 – Player fitness, fatigue, and squad selection issues
• 46:50 – Felipe Cardenas on Argentina’s mindset, Messi, and Scaloni’s subs
• 48:38 – Looking ahead: Argentina-Spain final preview

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Episode Tone and Closing Thoughts

• The tone shifts between resigned humor, exasperation, and serious reflection. The panel is candid, often frustrated, and seeks to contextualize England’s loss not just as a one-off, but as part of a wider footballing and national pattern.
• Concerns about Tuchel’s leadership and the FA’s future direction run through the discussion, and there is a sense that this defeat may have long-term consequences for fans’ confidence.
• The panel concludes with a hopeful look toward future tournaments and a keen interest in how the Spain-Argentina final will unfold — “a great final, ignoring the fact that England could have been there.” [48:14]

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For Listeners Who Missed the Show

You’ll take away a rich understanding of why England’s World Cup campaign fell apart — from tactics and psychology to the role of leadership and squad choices. The fan, reporter, and player perspectives illuminate the depth of disappointment and debate now facing English football.

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(Advertisements, intros, and outros omitted; summary focused on content segments only.)

Transcript

[Adam Crafton]

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The Athletic fc.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Welcome to Times Square here in New

[Adam Leventhal]

York after Argentina's late comeback victory over England. This is only the start of the party.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

We're preparing for a Messi driven pilgrimage

[Adam Leventhal]

to this city ahead of the final on Sunday. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventhal.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Messi again.

[Adam Crafton]

O'Reilly can't stop the ball in Martinez heads it in Argentina have done it again and it's happening to England all over again.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, so that is the celebratory side of the story. But what happened to England? Dear, oh dear. And where does this leave the future of Thomas Tuchel? Welcome to our studio here at Acast in New York City. Feeling a little bit deflated. Got to admit that this morning. Welcome along to the Athletics. Adam Crafton. Lovely to see you. How are you?

[Adam Crafton]

I'm good. Welcome to therapy.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yes, it feels like that, doesn't it?

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

We're here to talk through it and break it down and. Yeah. Devastating. Really like as devastating an England exit as I can remember from that stage of a competition when you're that close and then it felt very self inflicted. Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

And Reuben Pinder's here as well.

[Reuben Pinder]

Hello.

[Adam Leventhal]

How are you?

[Reuben Pinder]

I've been better. I've been better. Yeah. It's a familiar feeling though, isn't it? Yeah. And every two years it comes back and you're reminded of just how gutting it is. And then we go again.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, it's gonna be a bit of a therapy session. This.

[Adam Crafton]

I can.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, you'll bang on with that. We're gonna start, though, by reflecting on that victory for Argentina by hearing from our England correspondent, Jack Pitt Brooke, who was in Atlanta to watch it all fall apart.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

England are out the World Cup. That's the Atlanta Stadium behind me where England lost 21 to Argentina. I think what makes this so painful is that in one sense, it was a very familiar story. England got the lead. They retreated and retreated and retreated. They offered nothing going forward and eventually they were punished. What makes this bad is that I felt like this is what Thomas Tuchel chose. England weren't forced back necessarily, but he chose to go back to the Azteca plan, You know, the five at the back, getting Consa on and then getting Dan Burton on to try and head away crosses. But because England camped in their own penalty area for so long and offered no pace on the break after they took Anthony Gordon off, England offered nothing at all. They didn't give Argentina any difficult questions to think about. It meant that England were camped in giving Lionel Messi so much space that it almost felt inevitable that Argentina would win the game in 90 minutes. I think this goes down as a huge mark against Thomas Tuchel. He was brought in because he was a knockout master. He was a tactical genius. He'd have a bespoke plan for every game. And here he got the plan wrong. He made his proactive changes, made things worse for England. They removed England's threat on the break. They opened up the game for Argentina. And I really think this has done serious damage to Thomas Tuchel's standing with the English football public. He's just signed a new contract which will take him through to the Euros. And I don't think his position's under threat. But I also not sure his relationship with the English football public will ever quite be the same again.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, we're going to pull on quite a few of the threads that Jack raised there. Adam, let me come to you on that. Obviously we've heard a lot about this Azteca plan being cracked open and used once again at the Azteca, England were down to 10 men. There was no need for the Azteca plan this time around, was there?

[Adam Crafton]

No, but I mean, we talk about the Azteca plan sounds like a sort of like long term political project or something. But yeah, as you say, that was a very unique situation. Ten men, very unique kind of atmosphere, conditions, altitude, all of that. It made sense in the moment. But they did it again against Norway, remember in the last, you know, it was quite a long injury time, I think maybe 10 minutes. And they did it for that as well. I didn't think it kind of worked because they won the game. But I found it strange because at that point Haaland wasn't on the pitch, so Norway's best players weren't on the field at that point. They didn't need to do that. And you know, I felt that some of the reaction after Azteca was, and I get it, because it kind of summoned this nostalgia from the English football public of bravery and courage and there was a bit of that. But real bravery on a football pitch is taking the ball, keeping the ball, being strong enough to say we are in many cases in these England players, like 70 to 100 million pound dollar players and we're able to pass the ball to each other and keep it against an Argentina team. We should say congratulations to Argentina through gritted teeth, but an Argentina team that wasn't doing very much in the game until they were invited to do so. And sadly that's what played out.

[Adam Leventhal]

It's a very good point. You make just a couple of comments just to sum up the atmosphere of people watching right now. Yeah, Shambles from New Brave World. That was the thoughts there. And also banjo sandwich. We're used to being useless. Ruben, let me come to you on that because obviously what Jack was talking about there, the relationship between the England fans and Thomas Tuchel is going to be permanently damaged after what happened. Do you concur?

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah. As much as we try to think rationally about these things, and I've seen a lot of people make the point that the defensive substitutions from Tuchel were almost a reaction to how the team had started playing and, you know, if we were retreating into our own box, do you want proper defenders on the pitch or do you want midfielders in those positions? So there is kind of justification for what he did, I guess, if you watch it back, the performance, these performances were, they felt, not even Southgate esque, but almost more intentionally defensive than what Southgate teams did. So everyone's talking about Croatia 2018, Italy 2021. Those were kind of. I don't know if subconscious is the right word, but like instinctive retreats, where, like against Italy, for example, they were playing 3, 4, 3, that became 5, 2, 3, and eventually Italy scored. In this game, you're bringing on defenders, so it feels more intentional. And the appointment of Tuchel was meant to bring an end to that era where. And turn England into more of a protagonist team that would play football of the favorites rather than underdog football. But seemingly it takes more than one cycle and a German manager saying, let's go win the World cup, to undo that psychological kind of instinct that no matter how many of the England players play for elite club teams in an international shirt, that still seems to be deeply ingrained in them. Do you know what I mean?

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

I mean, it was interesting and we'll hear from David Ornstein a little bit later on, who was in the mix zone after the game, and we'll get his dispatch about what some of the players had said. But it was interesting hearing from Mark Gaye and it wasn't quite as sort of on the nose or damning of Tuchel as Jude Bellingham had been sort of saying, yeah, whatever, whatever. But he did basically just say, yeah, we just let them come onto us. That's a player saying, we didn't want to be doing this.

[Adam Crafton]

Well, he said we stopped pushing. Yeah, I think. I think that was the phrase he took. I mean, Mark Gay doesn't talk. He's not someone who sort of. He doesn't talk with a great degree of force or it wasn't. It didn't come to come across to me as kind of, you know, the manager has screwed us over here. But it did come across as we kind of had them, you know, we kind of had them where they needed to be. I mean, if you could have offered England a situation after an hour of that game to be a goal up, still have 11 men on the pitch, kind of got through that horrible kind of niggly first 30 minutes where the Argentines, you know, they kind of tried every trick in the book to destabilise.

[Adam Leventhal]

It was like Paraguay, France Wasn't it?

[Adam Crafton]

It was a little bit like Paraguay, France and England gave a bit back as well. You know, there was moments where Elliot Anderson was cuddling the Argentine players on the floor as well. And that was good. You know, that's fine. If Argentina are going to go like that, then England have to engage in a bit of it. But this isn't one of those situations where we're sitting there a day after the game. Well, we are where we're sitting here a day after the game and saying, you know, this all went wrong for XYZ reasons. Everyone was saying it in the moment. Everyone was watching this live and saying, what are they doing? Like, why are they proactively deciding to go attack against defense, against the best attacker the world has ever seen, right in Lionel Messi and letting him have space 25 to 30 yards from goal to clip those crosses, pick those balls to give him a level of time and patience on the ball that will just never understand.

[Reuben Pinder]

And that's what Tuchel said about the gaps were too big, right? So he was bringing on more defenders. Like, if you are going to concede a million crosses, then you might as well have Dan Burn to try and head them away. Which I get the save from Pickford, the ball that bounced on his line, I think from a Gonzalez header that was a inch perfect across from. From Lionel Messi. And the. The reaction was let's try and head those crosses away, not let's try and stop them as source. And obviously in the first half, England pressed really aggressively and there were some hairy moments like that required some quite impressive skill from like Christian Romero to get out of trouble and it was really working. And when you think about player profiles, Argentina have a lot of aggressive but also technical midfielders on the pitch, very little pace. So, like they don't have the wingers that we possess. So what they, what Argentina would have preferred is to be camped in our half rather than having to try and, you know, break at pace.

[Adam Crafton]

So what I found really surprising from that perspective is if you remember, Argentina had two centre backs on yellow cards in Martinez and Romero, and that had come about from England, first of all, having like Bellingham, who drives with the ball, which is so rare in midfielders, to kind of run with the ball and power on, but they needed to be run the other way and they needed to be outlets to keep them honest, to keep them going the other way. And then they bring on Otamendi. I mean, I didn't realize Otamendi was still playing football and he's brought on for the last kind of 20 minutes. And again you're thinking, and it's. This is maybe one of those which you say the day after the event, but was that actually the time for Ollie Watkins? Right. And maybe Harry Kane has kind of run his race to a certain extent for that moment in the game where you need that pace on the break, you need that outlet. You need Argentina, because that's the point though, isn't it?

[Adam Leventhal]

An outlet, an out ball, but someone who run more than one. It was so, it was so obvious. We don't need to, we don't need to dance around it. It was. Everyone could see it. Everyone knew that this was going to happen. The amount of passes that England made after they scored, I think it was something. We've got the stat here. Let's have a look.

[Adam Crafton]

This is a mind blowing stat.

[Adam Leventhal]

26 passes as an entire team. From the moment that Gordon gave England the lead, they lost their minds and they didn't have a coach on the touchline to settle them or to come up with a better plan. That's basically the long and short of it, isn't it?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. And I also remember when it went to the hydration break, I actually we have kind of a live blog, Slack channel where we all feed into the live blog. And I think this was just after Pickford had made the save from the. Whose header was it?

[Reuben Pinder]

Gonzalez.

[Adam Crafton]

Gonzalez's header. And at that point you're thinking, okay, England have ridden this kind of initial 10 minutes after the goal. We've got this world class manager in the dugout who's gonna get them together and come up with a plan for the last 15, 20 minutes of this game. And it made it worse. It was extraordinary because I really thought going into the hydration break, okay, we're in safe hands here. And it turned out to be the complete opposite. And to the extent of which I've never seen a coach go from having such a level of faith in him probably at 60 minutes or so, to the utter loss of faith, actually, that I think the English public appeared to have by the final whistle.

[Adam Leventhal]

So therefore, are we maybe being unfair that we're not necessarily taking into consideration how forceful Argentina were being at that moment? Or am I just trying to sort

[Adam Crafton]

of be too fair?

[Reuben Pinder]

This is what they do, right? This is what they've done throughout the World Cup. Yeah, yeah. They're the kings of late comebacks. They have the greatest player of all time, specifically greatest playmaker of all time. So they will create chances and everything. So it's tempting to view it purely through the lens of England gifting them this victory, but there's no body of

[Adam Leventhal]

work to say that this plan will work against this Argentina team because of their recent victories. So there was no reason to go with this.

[Adam Crafton]

The only body of work was what happened in Mexico and what happened in Norway. And I really do not believe, and maybe Tukla will come out and say that I'm wrong here, but I don't believe going into the tournament he had the idea that England would be finishing games playing like this. I just don't. I just don't buy it. Because if they were, you'd have brought Harry Maguire.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yep.

[Reuben Pinder]

Isn't that what Dan Burns for?

[Adam Crafton]

But at that stage in the game, you almost needed three of them.

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

You know, if you're really thinking the way that England are going to get over the line in the last 20 minutes is by defending the penalty area, then you need multiple of those damn Burns. And I just. It's such a bizarre way to see one of these world class club coaches go about trying to win a game. Because Tuchel, you know, Chelsea, it was quite technical football at times. He was accused of keeping the ball too much. And I don't think Kobbie Mainoo got on the pitch.

[Reuben Pinder]

No, he didn't get a minute. All tournament.

[Adam Crafton]

In the whole tournament, which is.

[Reuben Pinder]

That's. Sorry, finish your point, go on.

[Adam Crafton]

No, no, I mean, all I was going to say was I think if the initial game plan is physicality, Right. Can you run Argentina off the pitch, which I think by 60 minutes you've sort of got the sense maybe England could do that. And then you kind of have three options from there on. You either try and continue that by swapping the wingers and keeping having those outlets. Maybe bring on Ollie Watkins. You keep that pace and you keep that physicality or you take the view. Can we keep the ball a bit more? And that's when you maybe bring on a Kobbie Mainoo. And that's maybe when there was a place for some of those players who didn't come to the tournament, you know, Wharton Foden, Palmer. Or you do what Tuchel did, which

[Reuben Pinder]

is park the bus.

[Adam Crafton]

Park the park. A double decker. They call it double decker buses here. I think so, yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

He didn't park the bus, he built a bus garage. Like it was ridiculous. It was completely ridiculous. I'm here, I'm not sugarcoating anything. You can be diplomatic. Just a quick one from G.W. gray who says this, and this is an important point before we move on to the next section. The reason England went with Tuchel was to make decisive changes at crucial points. Something Southgate couldn't do, and he failed. This looked like Southgate's England. So it does make you think. Do you agree with that first and foremost, or do you think that this is actually. This isn't what Southgate would have even done, is it?

[Adam Crafton]

What do you think?

[Reuben Pinder]

I don't know. I think it feels like the narrative arc of the game was very familiar from the Southgate games I mentioned earlier. But this one, like I said, feels more intentional, whereas the Southgate ones felt more like just national psyche. Like we just can't help ourselves but do this. Which makes me think it doesn't really matter who's in charge. Like, you know, there's talk of people want Pep Guardiola to replace Thomas, which, obviously, I was thinking about Pep Guardiola.

[Adam Leventhal]

I woke up thinking about him, and I just thought, he would never have done that.

[Reuben Pinder]

But can a manager in an international job change something so seemingly so deeply ingrained in the time that they get with the players? Do you know what I mean? Because Guardiola is such a. On the training pitch, like, philosophy. Like, players take a year to adapt to the way that he wants them

[Adam Leventhal]

to play, but he micromanages. So in such, he can get things across so quickly, he doesn't even bother waiting for players to get back into the dressing room. Sometimes, even if they're not on his own team, he wants to manage the whole situation.

[Adam Crafton]

But you would never have thought Tuchel would do what he did as well, right? So in the same way as we're saying Pep would never do this, there is a Goldfish bowl madness to World Cups, right? We feel that we've been here much of the tournament, and you start to go a bit mad in this environment. I understand with, like, knockout football, some of the ideas that you might have about football, they just disappear with the state of a game.

[Reuben Pinder]

Cause the stakes are so high, right?

[Adam Crafton]

The stakes are so high. The emotions are so high. You know, the Argentines, they are scary. You know, they are a scary team. You know, even when they're singing that national anthem, it was kind of as close as I've seen in football to, like, the New Zealand hacker, you know, as they're going down that line.

[Reuben Pinder]

And they obviously had extra motivation for this game.

[Adam Crafton]

They clearly had, I mean, huge, huge motivation. And they're clearly a real band of brothers, right? These guys, I mean, they go. Scaloni was talking about this the other day, they go on holiday together, they socialize together. They're having the Argentine, but the asado, the barbecues together.

[Reuben Pinder]

They all sign for Inter Miami because Messi's there, you know.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. And they worship Messi. Messi is there. Is kind of on this pedestal to the extent where if when England dare tackle him, they come as you at a pack and they come at the referee as a pack. I mean, I thought the ref was managed that pretty badly. I mean, even when he attempted to give yellow cards, it was like he was scared almost, which you can understand because like these guys are running at you and they're quite intimidating. But so you can understand that fear that creeps in from a coach. But as we keep saying, Tuchel is probably maybe amongst the top three highest paid coaches at this tournament. And that's what he's there for. Those are the moments where he's meant to be. When everyone else is hot, he needed to be cold and he wasn't.

[Reuben Pinder]

This is the most frustrating thing. This is what he was brought in to prevent.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah.

[Reuben Pinder]

And it's what he said in his first interview as England manager, talking about how England played at Euro 2024. It looked like they were scared to lose rather than wanting to win. And it looked the same yesterday. And obviously he didn't want that to happen. So as frustrated as I am with how his team crumbled, it makes me think it's more. It goes deeper than just him. Right.

[Adam Crafton]

Like all inquests of these kind have to ask the question, are we. Are we letting the players off a bit? Does what, you know, what Tuchel did in those decisions. But I think my view is he actually didn't give the players a chance to win the game. But I don't know if. Do either of you disagree with that?

[Adam Leventhal]

I think that the players can only do so much with the structure that is afforded to them.

[Reuben Pinder]

And if there are no outcomes that

[Adam Leventhal]

would be king in that game, you need. Yeah, okay. If we are defending the box, of course they're going to be coming at us, but we need something out there in the distance.

[Reuben Pinder]

And you can make really nitpicky criticisms, Right. Like for the Enzo Fernandes equalizer, it's not in the corner. Pickford is too far. This is one side of his goal, whatever. Anderson also is probably is meant to be on him and then goes to double up on Messi and leaves Fernandez free. And these are like small things that. But like Mac Allister hit the post twice, they were going to score like So I don't like to kind of pick holes in, like, these individuals.

[Adam Crafton]

That's right, isn't it? Because the. The equalizer, it came from a corner. So Tuka could make the argument from open play. Yeah, we were restricting them, but as you say, there was about three of those situations where Messi's got the ball 30 yards out, cuts in curl, cross header against the post, header save, etc. But my memory, I think, of that second half will be Jude Bellingham attempting to run the ball down the left side. Maybe it was at 1 1, maybe it was at 1n. And just. I think he ended up almost running it out of play. Yeah, he did, because there was nowhere to go. There was no one to pass to, nowhere to go. And he was the only one who had that ability to kind of get England up the pitch. But there was no one there.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah.

[Reuben Pinder]

You wonder how it differently might have gone had the Gordon substitute been Rashford or maybe if Saka came on. Like, I know Saka's not been fully fit throughout the tournament, which is why he's kind of played in bursts, but he's really smart at protecting the ball and winning fouls, and that's kind of what you needed out wide.

[Adam Leventhal]

On that note, let's just take the temperature of some of the England fans that we bumped into here in New York. We watched in a. In a sports bar near Central park. And then as we emerged, it was obviously dark inside screens everywhere emerged, and then it was sheeting it down with rain. And you just felt, oh, dear, oh, dear. Let's just check in with some of these. These England fans that we spoke to. Your reaction?

[Brooke Devard]

I don't think I've actually ever cried before after a game, but I did.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, that was rough.

[Adam Leventhal]

We were very close, weren't we?

[Brooke Devard]

We were very close. You can't play that much of a defensive game, you know, against a team like Argentina, but I think we would have had Spain and I think to

[Adam Leventhal]

big loss is this on Thomas Tuchel?

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

There's an element of that, yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

I mean, England, as soon as they scored, they kind of sat back, right,

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

invited Argentina into them. So, yeah, we made the substitutions in, what, the 96th minute with three minutes to go. So who can. Who can blame anybody else, really?

[Adam Crafton]

He didn't have enough attacking players on the pitch.

[Adam Leventhal]

I think he should have brought Rashford

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

on a little bit earlier. I'm from Manchester originally, so I'm a big Rashford fan.

[Adam Leventhal]

There should have been, I think, a little bit more change, especially after Argentina scored. We didn't make it. He didn't do it. And here we are.

[Brooke Devard]

Like, I think Tuks. I think we. He organized this team for these, you know, knockout games. I think we didn't play that well in the group stage and, you know, this is what we were built for. And we were doing bloody well until the last 20 minutes.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Thanks a lot for swearing all over your box. No, it's fine.

[Reuben Pinder]

We can beat.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

No, it's fine.

[Adam Leventhal]

We can beat them out. And we did. But I think it does sum up the emotions of everyone that everyone just felt deflated and just like, oh, we were so close. We were so close. I've been getting really excited about all the fanfare surrounding the FIFA World Cup 2026. And luckily for me, the active cash Visa credit card from Wells Fargo scores unlimited 2% cash rewards on all types of fanfare. Purchases tickets to a game, thunder sticks

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[Adam Leventhal]

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[Adam Leventhal]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

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And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Adam Leventhal]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

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That's right.

[Brooke Devard]

Hey. Hey.

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So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Adam Leventhal]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next.

[Adam Crafton]

Spoiler alert.

[Adam Leventhal]

He'll be wrong.

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[Adam Leventhal]

Let's kick it on a little bit and sort of sum up maybe where the the FA's mind is in terms of looking at this. Taking a step back, looking at it as a tournament Obviously, Thomas Tuchel said that he was aiming for a second star on the shirt. It's only the fourth World cup semi final than England have ever been to. Is this tournament a success or a failure when maybe there's a little bit more distance from the emotions that we're feeling right now?

[Adam Crafton]

Well, I think first thing to say is the fa, you know, do want it to be known that Tuchel retains the confidence of their CEO, Mark Bullingham. And that was kind of a story widely reported last night. I find that quite surprising that they would go that fast, you know, right in the heat after a game of wanting that out there. To me, I actually think, although I think that, you know, the final outcome of the tournament, semi final, losing by a single goal, it's not. That's not a bad outcome, Right, for England at a World Cup. But I do think the context of the game, I think, as we've said earlier, like, threatens to do quite a lot of damage to the trust and credibility that Tuchel has with the country. I think England's draw, you know, it posed challenges. You know, obviously going to Azteca was a kind of amazing, historic night in many ways. But, you know, still, when you see the England team lined up against the Mexico team, that is a game England should win.

[Reuben Pinder]

Right.

[Adam Crafton]

In the cold light of day. And Norway, good in the tournament, beat Brazil. Not an easy game, but I think they'd kind of run their race. But it was almost like one too many for them. And I thought England's best game was the first game against Croatia, and that was where it peaked. And even just to go back to those subs, look at how England finished that game against Croatia. It was by scoring a goal with an outlet. Rashford on the break and Saka involved

[Reuben Pinder]

as well, who also came off the bench.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. But we all came away from that game thinking, right, it's going to be fun and we're going to have a go. And the way it's ended is just very different to that.

[Adam Leventhal]

It's interesting you mentioned about Mark Bullingham, obviously, for people watching, Tuchel signed a contract extension, so he's obviously expected to be in charge for the Euros. The CEO, Mark Bullingham on LinkedIn today, Thomas and the coaches will raise everyone for that and then lead us into qualification for our home euros in 2028.

[Adam Crafton]

So on LinkedIn. Yeah, apparently announcements on LinkedIn.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

I mean, next they'll be doing live streams.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, it might catch on. How do you think that's going to go down with the fans, Ruben?

[Reuben Pinder]

It the it doesn't do any good for the. It doesn't change the perception that England lose at the first good team that they play. Right. Which has been a criticism of recent tournaments like 2018 World Cup. Colombia, Sweden and then Croatia and then in the Euros, what was it? I mean, beat Germany, to be fair, but then the hindsight being, oh, well, Germany weren't that good, whatever. But that is a common criticism. And like I said before, Tuchel was meant to stop that. So I'm. Like Adam said, I'm surprised they've said this so early rather than kind of letting the dust settle. And it's probably fair enough, like we spoke about Pep Guardiola earlier, but it's probably worth saying for fans of different nations watching, that it's a little bit of. Is it English entitlement to think, actually, let's just have the best coach in the world, please. Why do we deserve him? You know, why should he come and manage his team? I don't know. Yeah, I'm surprised, but I'm surprised at the timing of that announcement, but I'm not surprised that they're going to stick with him.

[Adam Crafton]

I think what's disappointing is when you hire a coach like Tuchel, it's meant to be this feeling of he has something that all these English coaches may not have. And actually, what we've seen in the tournament is he didn't. Right. So. And this isn't to make it kind of, like, parochial, you know, you must have an English coach. But.

[Adam Leventhal]

But that is important for a lot of people, isn't it?

[Adam Crafton]

It is important for a lot of people. And I do think there is something about international football which, you know, the concept of international football is our best against your best. Right. And I think in a. In a world where all was equal between kind of what federations are able to pay and develop coaches, I'd be very comfortable with kind of a rule that meant, you know, you could only have a coach from your own country for all countries. But I think for a country of England's football investment, development, how much they've spent on a national training center and coach development, the idea that there isn't an English coach out there that could have done what Tuchel has done over the course of this tournament is now a much harder argument to make. After last night and the idea that. I think there was a story at the time that Eddie Howe didn't get an interview. Right. I'm not saying Eddie Howe should be the England manager, but the sense was Thomas Tuchel has some Sort of X factor that is beyond the wit of what is available to us. It's interesting, you know, you look at the Argentine coach, Scaloni, you can't really imagine this group of Argentine players without an Argentine in charge. Right. That feeling that they've developed is. And we're talking here about intangibles and yeah, it is quite patriotic and nationalist, but that's kind of what World Cups become and that kind of what can take certain teams over the line in these games, where it gets really close and you really have to dig in. And by the way, I thought Scaloni's substitutions, you know, talks a lot about two course substitutions. Thought the way that Scaloni asked different questions of England as that game went on was really impressive.

[Adam Leventhal]

Well, and he said after the game, didn't he, that we. We smelt blood in the water. I mean, obviously the whole of England had seen the blood.

[Reuben Pinder]

That's the most telling comment that is.

[Adam Leventhal]

That was your ears, isn't it?

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

You know, he knew what was happening and with his substuchel didn't.

[Reuben Pinder]

And with his subs, he avoided getting anybody sent off because he took. Was it Martinez who came off Rotamendi and he took Simeone off after his million small fouls.

[Adam Leventhal]

That was an incredible performance from Simeone, wasn't it? I mean, it was made in the image of his father.

[Reuben Pinder]

We glossed over a little bit earlier. And this is not an excuse, but some of the housery in the first half, like, I completely understand, the referee's job is to make sure that the game happens and like. But also part. And not to yellow card every sporting point. Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

It's not suspended before halftime.

[David Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Reuben Pinder]

But also part of it is like keeping the players safe, right?

[Adam Leventhal]

Yes.

[Reuben Pinder]

And like the occasional shoulder barge that you kind of just diffuse by saying, all right, lads, calm down, this is a game of. Football is fine. But a couple of them from Enzo early on, leading with your arm and things like that. Again, it's going to sound like sour grapes and an excuse, but like, you've got to get a better hold of that.

[Adam Crafton]

Did you think the Enzo on Elliot Anderson was a red card?

[Reuben Pinder]

I don't know, but it was. Yeah. He didn't get booked for it, did he? No, no. So it's definitely a yellow or something. And the more you allow, the more of that that you allow to happen, you kind of set a precedent and then eventually a couple of yellow cards come out. But I get it, you want the game to finish 11v11. So you've got to be careful. And it's. It's probably the hardest game in the tournament to referee, so I don't want to, like, sound like I'm blaming the referee, but. And then Valentin Barcode coming on and goading the England players after one of the goals. It's bad darts is why.

[Adam Crafton]

But they were. Once Argentina stopped doing that and played football, they were sensational. Yeah. I mean, the last half hour from. From Argent. I know we talked a lot about England, but as a kind of masterclass of how you England pin themselves back, but how you keep a team there and you do wave after wave of attack and also just how you get the best out of your best players. Right. That's another thing that, from a Scaloni perspective, it's not easy to get the best out. I lose track of how old Messi is.

[Reuben Pinder]

He just turned 39.

[Adam Crafton]

39. To develop a system that allows this player, who in previous World Cups prize 22 had found it difficult to get his best form and best position to do that and to develop that feeling around him, where, unlike Ronaldo, for example, with Portugal, where it feels almost like they're trying to make it all work for him, but it just doesn't work at all with Messi, it does. And that's more than just about Messi himself. That's about the way the coach is setting up. It's about the buy in that he has, that Messi has and that Scaloni has from the rest of the team, that they're all prepared to make these sacrifices because they know in that final clutch moment, he will produce that cross, whereas Ronaldo won't.

[Adam Leventhal]

We mentioned about the players a few moments ago. Let's get the thoughts of our football correspondent, David Ornstein, who was in the mixed zone with the England players and the Argentina players after the game.

[David Ornstein]

Well, you join me in what's known as the mix zone. It's an interview area where every player from both teams has to walk through after every World cup match and decide whether or not they want to talk to the media. We were born two players as a minimum FIFA requirement. That was Harry Kane as captain and Dan Byrne, who has been upfront and open to talking throughout. They were devastated, shell shocked, crestfallen, and as Dan Byrne described it, still numb at exactly what had just happened to them on the pitch. Harry Kane actually spoke pretty well about the misconduct opportunity, about the emotion, the shock in the dressing room afterwards. And I asked him whether, at 32 years old, he'll be 33 this summer. This could be his final World cup in an England shirt. He said that representing England has been his pride, his joy, what he loves more than anything else. It's too early to say whether he will pull on the shirt at this level again. As England trudged off to take their transport back to Kansas City ahead of having to play the third place playoff, they'll be licking their wounds on a campaign that promised so much and ultimately failed to deliver. The aim was stated to put a second star on that shirt to win England their second Men's World Cup Cup. That's why they hired Thomas Tuchel as coach initially on a one year contract. This was the one and only goal. He has since extended that deal. So we'll see whether he goes through to European championships on home soil. But unfortunately for England and their supporters, they have fallen short and there'll be a lot of bones to pick over.

[Adam Leventhal]

So we've dealt with the, the situation pretty much with, with Thomas Tuchel. Let's talk about one of the players that David Ornstein was speaking to there, Harry Kane, the captain. Where do you think his future path should be? How should this be mapped out for. For the greater good of England rather than necessarily for the. For the individual, which is. Which is a difficult thing to unpick, I suppose. I mean, does he still have a role to play leading, leading the line for a long term into the next World cup, for example, or can we just still go to that. To the Euros?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. I don't think England should be working on four year cycles. You know, they've not won a Euro, so, you know, they should be thinking about 28 home euros. I'd be amazed if Harry Kane's not there for the home Euros. It's kind of too tempting, I would imagine, for him. And it's not like there's a long line of center forwards ready to displace him. I mean, you worry about what would happen when he's not there. I think we did see some of the limitations in terms of him not being particularly. He's not a guy who's going to carry the ball for you on the counter attack. Right. He's someone who needs runners around him. But that's where we come back to. We were just talking about how good Scaloni was at getting the best out of his kind of aging superstar. That's what England have to do with Kane. They have to build a team that enables their best players, which are Kane and Bellingham, to excel. And for some of the tournament that they kind of did that to a certain extent. Not their best, but enough for them to do well. I don't think people come away from this tournament thinking Harry Kane's done. I mean he's had. No, he's had an amazing season. Amazing numbers.

[Reuben Pinder]

And he's never had pace.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

No.

[Reuben Pinder]

Do you know what I mean? Like so. And he's, he's, he's scoring bags of goals for buying. Was it like 70 odd in all comps for maybe club and country. And the whole rationale behind the squad selection was to get the best out of him. That's why Foden and Palmer were at home and Mad Weke and Gordon were there. Right. Because he needs runners. And then you know, not to go over the, the on pitch stuff again, but when, when those, when Gordon came off and like when those runners weren't there, Kane became very ineffective.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah.

[Reuben Pinder]

So it's a decision that England have to make to basically continue to. If Kane's going to continue to play, which he deserves to because not only for what he is currently, but what he has done for England over the last 10 years. None of those. England don't get as far as they do in these tournaments without him. And you know, not to Raheem sterling, especially in 2021, but in 2018 without Kane. Like that team is very average. And the same can be said for future tournaments. Obviously now it's got more quality kind of consistently in other positions. But his heroics against Dr. Congo, for example, very similar to Bellingham's overhead kick against Slovakia in 24. If that doesn't happen, the eventual semi final final runs don't happen. So he absolutely deserves to stay for the next cycle, lead the line. I think he's a great captain. The players seem to really admire. The next cycle is the next Euros and then we'll see how his body holds up for the World Cup. What I really want to avoid long term is a Ronaldo situation where the players and like, again, I have no insight into the Portuguese dressing room, but it would not surprise me if their players start to resent Ronaldo for still not being around and making the team worse. We need to not let that happen, which is difficult when a player is so obviously the leader and has been the hero on so many occasions. It's difficult to manage that, that kind of decision, who gets to make that decision. Whereas Argentina have managed it quite well because Messi still delivers.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, I don't think he has those. He doesn't have that dimension of kind of cult around him in the way that Ronaldo or Messi or even Neymar, I don't think has.

[Reuben Pinder]

I mean, but it's a situation where, like, if he's fit, he'll play. And at some point that might not be the best idea.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Reuben Pinder]

Like, further down the line.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. Though I would say, I mean, I think Tuchel has shown in this tournament to be sort of quite brave if he thinks someone shouldn't be on the pitch. You know, we've seen that with. I mean, even he's previously left Bellingham out. He's left, obviously, Foden Palmer out. He didn't. He clearly didn't think Saka was either in form or fit enough to play. So he has, I think, shown that, you know, if he is to remain coach, I think he would be brave enough.

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

If he believes that decision to be the right one to take Kane out. I just don't think we're near a stage where England can be saying we don't want or need Harry Kane. I think one of the things England do need in the next tournament, they need the best players fit. Too many of England's best players in this tournament weren't fit. I mean, Declan Rice didn't really.

[Reuben Pinder]

I mean, running on fumes, isn't he?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. I mean, his body just looked what it. What it was. Which is coming off the back of season after season of being pushed to the limit in pursuit of something incredible for Arsenal. Saka, obviously, clearly, is it.

[Adam Leventhal]

That's not. That's, you know, that's the club v country.

[Reuben Pinder]

Like, this is kind of. Again, it's going to sound like an excuse, but I do think it's maybe an underplayed part of the analysis of England's performances compared to other countries, like the Premier League. Yeah, the Premier League aspect of it. And I know, like, France and Spain have a few Premier League players dotted around, but Mbappe at Real Madrid, for example, famously doesn't do much defending. And Dembele, for example, gets rested in Liga a lot so that he can prioritise the Champions League. Whereas England's best players are playing 65 games a season because they're going deep in the Champions League. And every Premier League team is a much bigger challenge than the bottom half of La ligue or a Ligue 1, and over long periods of time, that will catch up with their bodies. And Rice is the best example, which, again, makes the Mainoo exclusion. Like, if you're going to bring him and not play him. That's the confusing bit. Obviously, Henderson breaking his arm doesn't help the fact doesn't help the midfield depth, but we saw Bellingham have to play as an eight too often and yeah, like you said earlier, we knew that Rice was knackered and then the illness is unfortunate, but to not have another midfield option there where, you know, we've ended up. I guess he was leaning on the versatility of players like O'Reilly and James and then Rodgers played there for a bit against Norway. But yeah, the Premier League aspect of just how tired these players are going into the tournament is maybe underplayed in the in the post mortem.

[Brooke Devard]

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[Adam Leventhal]

I did want to also get the the thoughts because we've obviously concentrated a lot on England and the fallout, the inquest, the therapy, whatever you want to call it. But let's get the view of Felipe Cardenas who was watching the Argentina performance yesterday and just get his view on how that side of things viewed the victory.

[Felipe Cardenas]

Argentina, they are inevitable. They've done it again. A comeback win here in the semi final against England when you thought they were done. Perhaps maybe not so much this time. It was just a one goal lead but it did feel like England had a little bit of momentum but Honestly, I really did feel like this stadium here, the support that Argentina had completely ate up the English side alive. Argentina really never felt like they were out of this game. Even when they went down and when they equalized, this stadium almost fell apart. That's when we knew that Argentina had a comeback in them. And then when Messi again something that I felt like England were not used to. They don't play against Messi ever, these English players. And he can do nothing for 60, 70 minutes. And when you sit back and give him the ball and give him a space and let his teammates buzz around him, he will punish you. And that's exactly what he did. Two assists. The second assist with his right foot, a beautiful cross from the right side, weak foot bent away from Jordan Pickford and right on Lautaro Martinez's head. Lionel Scaloni, the manager for Argentina told us, told reporters after the game that they smelled blood and they went for it. When he got England sat back and decided to defend with so much time left on the clock. So that's the story here in Atlanta. Argentina back to back final appearances. They will face Spain in New Jersey on Sunday.

[Adam Leventhal]

It's so frustrating still, isn't it, when you hear it. Argentina will face Spain in the, in the final. Obviously we will on the Athletics FC podcast, focus on the final over the next couple of days, build up to it on, on Sunday so we'll have plenty of time to talk about it at length with our guests over the next couple of days. But just in, in general terms, Adam, it is a, it is a great final, ignoring the. That England could have been there. It's a great final still, isn't it?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. And I like what it pits. You know, you have, on the one side, you have kind of a pretty rational, logical, cold team that's just produced one of the. I actually thought it was one of the greatest collective World cup performances, Spain against France, whatever day that Tuesday was that.

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

And I was at the game in Dallas and they, I think they stunned everyone really about. I think people knew they were quite good and then it was like, wow, they're actually really good and they are able to follow a plan and keep the ball and have control much of what we've seen from Spain for a very long time. And they're a real team and they don't rely on moments. And then you've got this kind of electricity and energy and emotion that comes out of Argentina obviously with some quality as well. And seeing those two sort of contrasts collide, I think will be really interesting. And it'll be fascinating to see if Argentina can drag Spain into what they want the game to be or whether Spain just. Just play around them and do what we thought England could have done.

[Reuben Pinder]

Yeah.

[Adam Crafton]

In that past half hour, the thing I kept feeling about, I saw Argentina against Switzerland and Kansas City. Came away from that thinking they are either like the best worst team I've ever seen or the worst best team I've ever seen. Because they. I've never seen a team that looks so beatable that never loses. Yeah, right. Like you come away from every time you watch them thinking, got a bit lucky there. They'll get found out next time and they don't.

[Adam Leventhal]

Do you want a little sort of random palette cleanser for the end of the show?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, please.

[Adam Leventhal]

Just say yes, please.

[Adam Crafton]

Gin, vodka, whatever.

[Adam Leventhal]

Yeah, I'll open the cabinet. Just a little quiz. Our do youo Know quiz. It's day 36 of the tournament. We've been doing it every day throughout, so we're not obliged. It's just that Jay Beal, who is our producer, he works so hard on it and we just feel we can't not do it. So here we go. It's just like, just to lift us before we go out into the wide world and come to terms with everything. Do you know which player wore the number three shirt, scored six World cup goals?

[Reuben Pinder]

Azermajan.

[Adam Leventhal]

Straight in.

[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Wow.

[Reuben Pinder]

2010. Ghana.

[Adam Crafton]

Didn't finish the question count.

[Reuben Pinder]

I'll start it. So I'll finish. I've got a real thing for bad shirt numbers.

[Adam Crafton]

Ah, okay.

[Reuben Pinder]

So a striker wearing number three really stuck in my head. Like Clint Dempsey, I think were number two for the US as well.

[Adam Leventhal]

Lovely.

[Reuben Pinder]

Sorry, what was the rest of the question?

[Adam Leventhal]

No, it doesn't matter. You've got. And the highest scoring African player in World cup history.

[Adam Crafton]

Was that an attempt at audience participation that Ruben has just ruined?

[Adam Leventhal]

No, no, no, no, no, because we're ending the show. Usually we do it at the beginning of the show. We invite everyone.

[Reuben Pinder]

That's when I don't jump in and wait till the end.

[Adam Leventhal]

I think you suitably just got it done.

[Reuben Pinder]

Well, look, if England aren't going to win, I've got to get a victory somewhere.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay. Thank you very much for watching. Thank you, Ruben.

[Reuben Pinder]

Thank you.

[Adam Leventhal]

Thank you, Adam. Do you both feel a bit better having got a little bit off your chest?

[Adam Crafton]

No, no.

[Adam Leventhal]

Cool. Ruben? Not really.

[Reuben Pinder]

A tiny bit. We'll see. Okay.

[Adam Leventhal]

Well, I hope you've enjoyed watching nonetheless. Thanks to all our guests that featured earlier on Can I remember who they are? Yes, Jack, Adam, Felipe as well. To the England fans. To the potty mouthed England fan who was very entertaining after the game as well. Thank you to you. Don't forget to subscribe to the channel. You can download the podcast as a good old fashioned podcast if you want to walk around with it in your ears in all your usual podcast places. And we will be back tomorrow right here live once again in New York. Take care till then. See ya.

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[Reuben Pinder]

Get that Amex Gold cart ready. I'm way too tired to cook tonight.

[Brooke Devard]

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[Jack Pitt-Brooke]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

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