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- [00:00]
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Stu James
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- [01:37]
Jacob Tanswell
The Athletic FC
- [01:41]
Ayo Akimolere
welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. At the end of January, Aston Villa were level on points with Manchester City seven points off leader's Arsenal. One win in six though, has left them clinging onto a place in the top four. So are the wheels falling off for Unai Emery's side? All right, in with us today we've got Stu James. We've also got our Aston Villa correspondent Jacob Tanswell as well. All right, Jacob, let's start with you on this one. Back to back defeat for Aston Villa. Now, first Wolves, now Chelsea last night. Can you just explain what on earth is going on to this team?
- [02:20]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah, we spoke before we came on about. I've been on here about three times and the first time Villa were in this rut at the start of the season, everything was going awfully. Then the second time Villa could potentially push for for a Premier League title and now it's kind of gone back to how the early season was panning out. What's happening is it's pretty wild, really, because Villa are fourth. Still, if you asked Emery and you asked supporters that, you know, especially back in September in that tumultuous summer when they were stifled with psr, that they'd be fourth and still with a relatively good buffer from sixth place, they are taking that. But the mood at the moment is completely opposite. It's pessimistic, it's negative. And especially in these last two games, the performances have been alarming. Probably Chelsea, as we'll come on to it, was probably Villa's better attacking performances. They created more chances, they were a bit more dangerous. They. Chelsea, gave them space that they haven't previously been afforded, but it was just a wild defensive display. Some of it reminded me of an postecoglou spurs at points of the high line. And for a. For a manager who prides himself on, you know, understated, subtle intelligence, making sure that he. You're always in the game, it was a quite bizarre showing.
- [03:32]
Ayo Akimolere
Stu. Let's not forget Villa did go ahead, I think, in opening two minutes or so. But were you surprised by what you saw on the field? And at what point did you think, do you know what, if they play their cards right, they might actually get back into this or not?
- [03:45]
Stu James
Yeah, I mean, but even the goal they scored in the first two minutes was just such a strange goal. I mean, it was littered with mistakes from both teams. Watkins really untidily gave the ball away trying to find Buendia, and then Enzo Fernandez gave it back to them. And then Douglas Duiz had two attempts at playing that pass. I don't even think Bailey's cutback was clean, but obviously you take the goal and it's a great platform for them on the face of it. But it never felt like that. I never felt like Villa had any control in that game at all. And, you know, as Jacobs mentioned there, without the ball, they were just so loose, they were so vulnerable to that ball in behind. There was lots of space on the flanks. I actually felt sorry for Villa's fullbacks. I felt that was so exposed. I mean, Garnacho, right, has been trying to find form. Well, he couldn't have had a better opportunity last night. And I didn't think he was brilliant. I thought he had a good game, but at times I thought he was wasteful, too. I mean, and he should have had a goal, but he had so much opportunity to get at Cash on that side, who was totally exposed. You had the feeling that the goals were coming for Chelsea, that. That equalizer, you know, gusto gets in on the right and then in the middle is 2v1 Mings and. And Konza should be able to deal with Xiao Pedro. But Ja Pedro like he was all night, he's so proactive with his movement. Khanz is on his heels and. And yeah, you know, even though there were other moments in the game where Villa had chances, as Jake has mentioned there, I always thought Chelsea would score again. I was constantly thinking, they're going to get in, they're going to get in. And I think when you look at Villa now, you just have this feeling like they've lost their way a little bit. There's not enough goals in the attacking players. They're clearly missing some key members of the team, you know, through injury, McGinn, Kamara, Tullimans and I got to be honest, I think they've got a problem with a goalkeeper too. He makes me nervous and I think it would have probably been the best for all parties if he'd left last summer. I think there's a vulnerability there and that must affect the team as well.
- [05:40]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean, goals are interesting, Jacob, because you couldn't help but look at Joao Pedro with that hat trick and think, oh, I swear Ollie Watkins used to score goals like that. You know, those kind of movements as well. I know he had a goal chalked off, but, you know, you've written about this, especially with Ollie Watkins, it sort of feels as though there was a moment in the season where we thought it was going to kick off again. But I think all round as a season even he might be disappointed with how he's played.
- [06:06]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah, he would do. And he's spoken publicly, emery, even John McGinnis, spoken publicly. Watkins does tend to go on these droughts. He has been quite a streaky striker throughout his, his career really. But this drought is pretty prolonged and if you actually look at the numbers from the last three years, he's regressed since his his peak in the 23, 24 season. The minutes per goal ratio is far lower than what it should be. He doesn't contribute as much as he did with assists. Build up play. It seems like that sharpness, it's not quite there. I know early in the season and last summer he was managing assist on his knee, which meant that he couldn't always train. He had to sometimes stay inside, do some gym work and he was managing that. But yet he continues to play. He plays a lot of minutes and he's struggling. And yesterday's game was kind of encapsulated his season really. He Scores a goal narrowly offside. The game maybe changes there because if Villa go in halftime, the lead, okay, they've got. They can regather themselves. They can maybe become a little bit more defensively compact. Emery can adjust the shape slightly, but he's ruled out offside. He then misses a big chance to pull the trigger in the second half. Chelsea then get another goal. And it's almost sums up his. His luck, but also the fact that he. He's kind of been on the. On the decline for. For a little while now. And it's quite remarkable as well that the Villa are still fourth with really one functioning and effective attacker in Morgan Rogers this season. If you look at the rest of the attack, they don't really contribute too much. Emu Buendia fits the starts. Leon Bailey's come back okay. He registered an assist yesterday, but he's been pretty poor since. Since returning from Roma in January. If you mark Morgan Rogers, which a lot of teams have found recently in terms of compact in the middle, Leeds have done it, Brentford had done it, Wolves have done it, and that actually in turn made Emery shift Rodgers to the left yesterday. You kind of solve a lot of Villa's issues. And having your number nine be so ineffective in recent times, that's a large reason why.
- [08:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, but what about Tammy Abraham? I mean, I know he's a recent acquisition and he's been at Villa before. You'd like to think perhaps let's mix it up a little bit up front. We've got a couple of options here. Do you think he's been used effectively by Unai Emery since he's arrived at Aston Villa?
- [08:20]
Advertiser/Host
Yeah.
- [08:20]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah. There's a school of thought among several people at Aston Villa that although Emery's this demanding taskmaster of a coach, he does give you immense loyalty if you've previously won him over. You look at Leon Bailey last season, he was pretty ineffective for all of it, actually. But yet he continues to play. Ollie watkins, you know, eight goals and 39 appearances so far this season. Average a goal more than every 330 minutes still continues to play. Players that are new to the system, they have to do a lot for EMU to trust them, really. Probably since January 2024 of Morgan Rogers, there's been no player that's really come in and fitted into the system. It's always the tried and trusted players. And if you look at the starting lineup last night, eight of the starting 11 were there in 2021. And if you compare that to their opponents, Chelsea with. With their churn off players and how quickly they can rejuvenate a squad. It's quite stark.
- [09:12]
Stu James
I find it really interesting, Jacob, what you say and reading your articles, because Emery clearly has this idea that even if you're not just a trust, but if you're out of form, the best way he thinks that you get your form back is by carrying on playing. I see that differently. I think sometimes there comes a point when you, you need to give a player a break and take them out the team for their own to help them, you know, mentally as well with their form. And also I think it sends quite a negative message to the rest of the squad that almost people aren't accountable for performances in a way and that they just keep playing. And you know, you'd look at it on the face of it and think surely Abraham deserves a chance now or what's the point in bringing him in? In a way, yeah.
- [09:53]
Jacob Tanswell
One of the reasons why Villa continues to shave very closely with PSI is because they always try and sign, plug in and play players and high salaries, experienced players. But yeah, they, they don't really tend to come in and make that immediate impact, which is always what Villa outlined before they arrive, really. They said the same for Tammy Abraham. They said they wanted a striker that could hit the ground running, yet he's not really being given the opportunity. And regarding Emery playing players through, through bad form, he would argue that he's been vindicated with Morgan Rogers because Rogers was, was very poor start of the season. But he thought if I play him through it, he's going to build this robustness later on in his career and he'll benefit from it. And actually as it's transpired, he, he was vindicated in doing so. But there's other players who a little bit older, been working with Emory a little bit longer and you start to wonder is it bad form or is it just their overall performance now and what they are? And I think there has been that worry from, from players coming in thinking, you know, I don't really get a chance or if I do get a chance, it'll be 20 minutes and I have to perform exceptionally to dislodge a player that's been here for three, four years because Emory has, I wouldn't say favorite, but he has these players that he feels that he can trusted to execute the game plan and he feels okay, they might not work on one game, but he trusts them over time to come good. And right now you're not really seeing that.
- [11:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Stu. Back on the Ollie Watkins point, there Was a time where people were saying, if Harry Kane's not playing, Ollie Watkins is our guy. There's a World cup coming up this year. Is he talking himself out of that World cup squad on this current form?
- [11:21]
Stu James
Yeah, it's interesting because it's not long ago we were thinking like that and you, you know, remember his impact in the Euros, right? You know, scoring Keegoal in the semifinal in. And there would have been people thinking, Kane looks tired. Does Watkins not deserve to start? And it feels like narratives changed a lot now. You know, it's only, what, Jacob. Thirteen months ago, Arsenal were trying to sign him in the January window right at the end. I think last summer he was on Man United's radar. Now you look at him in rightly or wrong, you think, well, what is the market for Ollie Watkins now? And in terms of England, if we're talking form, then no, he's not Kane's deputy. But it isn't always form with England. We know that managers will pick players sometimes on what they've done for the country in the past. But the other question here is, who are the alternatives? And you look at the top scorers chart and then you're probably looking at if you're going on goals in the Premier League this season and form. Danny Welbeck's 35 now and Carver Lewin and I didn't realize Cart Lewin was only 28 by the way. Calvert Lewin feels like he should be 34 to me.
- [12:20]
Ayo Akimolere
I know he's been about for a bit, hasn't he?
- [12:22]
Stu James
Yeah, I don't think he's played for England since 2021, you know, that's a long time. So. But on, if we're talking now, you know, looking at those three and looking at form, you'd have to say that Watkins is at the back of the queue. I guess the worry for England is, you know, that unless I'm missing someone, I don't see another obvious alternative to Kane. And, you know, that is a concern. But, you know, Watkins would need, I think, a really good run between now and the end of the season, also for himself, for his own confidence, his own self belief, not just to justify his inclusion in that England squad.
- [12:59]
Narrator/Host
This is the Athletic FC Podcast with IO Akimolera. This episode of the Athletic FC Podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. The 8th of March is International Women's Day and this month BetterHelp wants to celebrate female strength and progress, while also recognizing that between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, their emotional well being can easily be overlooked. So once you've listened to this ad, why not take a moment to reflect on the special woman or women in your life? Be your wife, your mother, your daughter, your sister, your beloved aunt and the expectations placed on them and the pressures they feel. Maybe you want to suggest that therapy can help create balance, set healthy boundaries and support overall well being for everyone. BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy providers, serving over 6 million people globally. Just fill in a short questionnaire and they'll pair you with a therapist based on your preferences, needs and goals. If you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time, safe in the knowledge that BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are licensed in the us Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up right now and get 10% off at betterhelp.com fcpodcast that's better h e l p one last time betterhelp.com fcpodcast all one word with no spaces.
- [14:23]
Advertiser/Host
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- [16:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Andre Chance for Wolves.
- [16:40]
Chris Wa
Andre's got a hitting dislodge and oh
- [16:44]
Ayo Akimolere
well, let's move on to the chase for Champions League places because from Wolves win over Liverpool to the game at Villa park between Villa and also Chelsea, it's been a big round of results in, in that race for Champions League qualification. Jacob, how damaging do you think it's been now we see Villa sort of slowly slipping down that top four top five for their Champions League qualification. But also, I got to say, you know, Bayon coefficiency top five might just do it for them.
- [17:10]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah, it's been, it's been damaging. I, I think tactically Emery, probably for the first time in his Villa career, actually has been repeatedly getting it wrong in terms of the starting lineup of and fans are actually starting to push back. He's always been seen as this deity, this God in the middle is. But there more questions about him in terms of why, why does he keep starting Watkins? Why does he keep starting Bundy and Leon Bailey? Why are Villa still playing the same way and struggling to score before the Wolves game? Villa actually had the best defensive record in 2026 and yet last two games conceded six goals and that's now started to go downhill. And you look at Villa park, they had this unbelievable run in 2025, lost once at home. The best European home form since Emery's arrival before Brentford and Everton came last month. Since then there's been concerns about the atmosphere and there's just. It kind of reflects the, the negativity, which is strange to say. Villa are doing so well in the league and for, for the layman or for an outside spectator, you're probably thinking, okay, Villa are still in a really good position. But the mood seems so flat. Emery acknowledged it yesterday. The players feel flat. The injuries haven't helped, but these last two games have done, I think a lot of damage for the confidence and belief of getting into that top four top five.
- [18:31]
Ayo Akimolere
We have to talk about Chelsea, Stu, because, you know, not long ago on this podcast we were talking about ill discipline with Liam Toomey and how much that's cost them with red cards and also discipline attacking wise and defensively as well. But they went down against Aston Villa, a goal down and they Came back and absolutely obliterated that match. So can we give them some credit finally, for getting their act together and a bit of discipline as well in this race for the Champions League?
- [18:54]
Chris Wa
Yeah, absolutely.
- [18:55]
Jacob Tanswell
Absolutely.
- [18:55]
Stu James
They didn't look phased at all by going behind, did they? I don't think that sometimes nearly goal can really knock a team, but it didn't in this case. And it was an excellent Chelsea performance. And I think, you know, you look at the stats, they don't always tell the whole story, but I think they did last night. Their XG was round four. They had 15 shots, twice as many touches as Villa in the opposition penalty area. They were comfortably the better team and they scored four and could have scored more, to be honest. You know, there's that great chance for Garnacho later on as well, wasn't there? I think, you know, tactically, they obviously got it spot on. We can't overlook the fact that Villa played into their hands in terms of, you know, how they set up with that high line, but they still exploited that really well. The movement was good, dynamic. There were lots of overloads out wide. Every time they went forward, they looked like they were going to score. I thought, Palmer. Palmer's a funny one. And you look at him sometimes and think, are you enjoying being out there or not? Last night, he actually. He looked like he was, you know, having the time of his life. He has loads of space. It was perfect for him. There was space to run into and there was space to pass into. We should also say this, right? There's been a lot of criticism of the Premier League late. That was a real fun game to watch, you know, that. That was. I'm sure Villa fans probably don't feel like that this morning, or didn't feel like it at the time, but for a neutral, right, sat there because we were, you know, chatting between us at the Athletic, what games we watch. I didn't really want to turn over and watch, you know, the Newcastle game, because I was thinking, I want to stick with this. It's entertaining. It was a little bit like a basketball game at times in the first half especially. But, yeah, Chelsea were really good. I mean, you look at Jao Pedro and you look at the impact of a new manager at times and think, okay, what's changed? He's really thriving, right, in 2026.
- [20:23]
Ayo Akimolere
But he was thr. He's been so such a good sign.
- [20:27]
Stu James
I just feel like he's gone into another gear. And it's interesting, Rossini talking about him being in position to Score the tappings. He scored those two brilliant goals, was it away in Napoli? But, you know, sometimes I'd look at him and think, are you a nine, Are you a ten? Are you in between? Will you be there to get those tapping goals like last night? And yeah, he was in the right place all the time. That lovely little death finish, you know, there was a bit of. There's a bit of everything to his game. And yeah, Chelsea were really, really good and I saw hunger in them as well. There was a moment, second half, where Sancho, he somehow wriggled clear inside his own half along the touchline and Rhys James was well behind him and he sprinted back to take the ball off him and he made it look so easy. It was almost a bit embarrassing from Sanchez point of view. But that kind of desire, when you see that in players when they're already ahead in the game, I think that shows a lot. So, of course the big thing with them is consistency, isn't it? You know, can they go in, put, you know, together a string of results? And I was looking. They got some curious games coming up because I think it's Wrexham next and then psg, isn't it? I don't know, maybe Wrexham fans think they belong in the same company as that now says a bit to Swansea supporter. But anyway. And then I think Newcastle after that. So can they now string together results? Right, that's what they have to do because there isn't much margin for error. You know, we've been quite critical of Villa this morning and, you know, rightly so on the back of last night. The reality is they're still in fourth place, they're still three points ahead of them. So fascinating to see how it all goes. But that was a really good night for Chelsea.
- [21:58]
Jacob Tanswell
Stu talks about end to end game, but yeah, that was probably what Emery didn't want his best. Villa always built on this cohesion, but this intelligence in terms of how they all. They're set up. Okay, they're really good on transition, but they don't want an end to end game. They want to be the team that breaks. They don't want the other team breaking on them. And it just felt from very early on, Stu, that Villa were really desperate. Like even when it was 2:1, they were very high. They. The high line was weird when you don't have pressure on the ball shown. In Chelsea's first goal, they sat at a high line, but then there was no one pressing. And Villa have never been the most actively pressing team, but they're Usually far more compact and obviously they're missing Kamara and they're missing those type of players. But it just felt strange to me that a Villa team who are usually very good at identifying where the opposition's strengths are would just allow themselves to be that open. Not normally Emery will drop the wing into the back line and sometimes make it a 631 just to make sure they stay in shape. But in almost, Emery wanted to be really on the front foot, which was strange. And going forward he kept the wingers high and they just got. It's got overloaded both in both flanks. And Emry's best wins, you've seen it Arsenal away Chelsea way it's always been when he keeps it tight in the first half and he uses little tweaks in the second half to win the game by one goal or two goals. But yeah, they just felt that Villa was very desperate early on and almost played into Chelsea's hands. Even if they went a goal behind early on because it still meant that they still had space, Chelsea to keep attacking. Even if Villa had a. Had a goal and lead to protect.
- [23:24]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, can we just talk about the Wolves match? Because as a fellow West Midlander, I know what that kind of game means to Aston Villa. You know, Wolves, the team that are looking to get relegated, beat some might say the more successful, richer West Midland team. And you know, you talk about low mood in one of the pieces, you know you've spoken about in the athletic Jacob at the stadium. Does that contribute to that low mood we're seeing from the fans at the moment? Because that was a really punishing defeat.
- [23:54]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah. And the scenes at full time were ugly. Voice Captain Esri Conte, standing in for John McGinn had to be restrained from approaching the away fans. He was seen mouthing a few curse words towards them. And you think that shouldn't be happening for a team in fourth place. But it's just a build up of there's anxiety within fans because they know how big Champions League football is. If they don't get that, who might leave? Will it stifle longer, longer term progression? Will it have an impact on Emery's future? There's anxiety there, but Wolves game just looked like a team that was just completely inhibited from doing anything. They had no energy. One team supposed to be down and out and yet Wolves were the ones that were pushing second half. You saw the goals, there was a lack of pressure on the ball similar to Chelsea. They looked tired, which they, they shouldn't have been. They had, they've had more than adequate rest and it didn't look like a team that were intense and believing that they could qualify for the Champions League and win even against Wolves.
- [24:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Stu, let's talk about that Champions League qualification because Wolves have done a number. A couple of the teams looking to qualify for Champions League in Villa and also Liverpool as well. But know when you look at that cluster of of teams, Man United of course, included in that. If fifth is enough to get Champions League football, who's missing out in that cluster?
- [25:09]
Stu James
Yeah, I worry about Villa at the minute just because of that word momentum and, you know, confidence kind of draining away. That said is Jacob spoke about earlier, they're capable of putting a run together again. It's weird because you feel like there's almost seasons within seasons with this sort of Villa team, but at the minute that they would be the ones who concern me, obviously United about this big uplift under and Carrick. I mean, that was another huge moment right, last night, which we'll come on to, I'm sure. But you know, for Chelsea, it's the perfect night, isn't it? The perfect midweek. You know, they've had a bad result Sunday, getting beaten by the rivals Arsenal. But then they've obviously, you know, they had to beat Villa really last night, given the point difference, Villa won. That would have been, you know, massive nine points. Liverpool losing the night before would have been unexpected.
- [25:53]
Jacob Tanswell
Or would it?
- [25:54]
Stu James
I don't even know what wolves are these days. I can't work out Wolves. Now they're picking points off Arsenal.
- [25:58]
Ayo Akimolere
Proper team.
- [25:59]
Jacob Tanswell
Now they're getting relegated, right?
- [26:00]
Stu James
They're in Champions League form. That was me thinking three months ago. Then nailed on to beat Derby's, you know, lowest ever points total. It's been such a baffling Premier League season, right? I mean, I wrote Brentford off at the start and they've been fantastic. So I actually looked at them last night and thought, crikey, they'll brew the points they dropped the night before. Given how the Champions League results have got other teams around, the Champions League places have got on. So, yeah, really interesting. I don't see any consistency in Liverpool. So it feels wide open at the minute. And yeah, you know, it's a. It'd be really interesting to see what happens. I mean, Villa, I guess Villa will have Jacob in the back of the heads. What happened last season as well, right, where they. They actually. They had that place. I was at Old Trafford on the final day when that refereeing decision went against them, didn't it? And you know, I guess all of that starts getting into supporters minds. Does it get into players minds? Are we going to let this sort of slip through our fingers? They were third. Right. For a long time. I think it was only the other day, wasn't it? They dropped out of third place for the first time since December. Something like that. And that's just so to answer your question, that's what I concerned about at the minute. I just feel that, you know, the loss of form, the lack of confidence, that kind of mood Jacobs talked about around the place, how that affects the players and, you know, will Emery now go and make changes next games manual way. Is that right? Yeah.
- [27:14]
Jacob Tanswell
Back to the scene of the crime.
- [27:16]
Stu James
Yeah, there you go. There you go. And what. What a huge game that is. You know, I started looking through Villa's fixtures last night and I was thinking, oh yeah, they're not too bad some of those games. Then I thought, but what can we. I think they've got Forest to play. But then Forest are scrapping for their lives. Right. They go and get a point in Man City. Yeah. And come back to it. I'd have said, well, Wolves, that's a good game and clearly the polar opposite. So sorry, I don't.
- [27:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Can't call it at the moment.
- [27:38]
Stu James
You can't call it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [27:42]
Ayo Akimolere
What do you reckon, Jacob Louis missing out?
- [27:43]
Jacob Tanswell
Do you know, I. I have my doubts whether the teams below Villa can really sustain a run of form and that I don't think Villa are going to qualify for the Champions League because they're going to be exceptional. But it's just. I don't know if there's a team that's robust enough and consistent enough to. To overtake them. There's. There's flaws in it, all of them. I can't put my money on any of them stringing three wins in a row together. But I. I still think Villa will do. The body of evidence suggests that Emery Wolf final solution and when he does, I think they'll have enough. But right now they look so far away from that, it's pretty untrue.
- [28:23]
Stu James
Thy ticket, lady Jennifer of Coolidge.
- [28:26]
Advertiser/Host
Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs. Yeah, they do here. Discovery. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times.
- [28:40]
Stu James
With the times.
- [28:42]
Advertiser/Host
You're playing the loot. Yeah. And it sounds pretty good, right.
- [28:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on
- [28:51]
Chris Wa
the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [28:53]
Ayo Akimolere
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Advertiser/Host
We all have moments where we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair.
- [29:40]
Stu James
Yikes.
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Advertiser/Host
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- [30:02]
Narrator/Host
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamoleiro Osula.
- [30:06]
Chris Wa
It's a shot.
- [30:07]
Ayo Akimolere
Oh my word. Joining us now is our Newcastle correspondent Chris Wa. Chris, have you calmed down after what I think was probably one of the goals of the season so far, will Azula's winner at St. James's Park?
- [30:22]
Chris Wa
Yeah, I mean I didn't see it coming in anywhere really. I didn't see any castle winning the game that really given everything to it. But it had 10 men for more than 45 minutes but hadn't really apart from set pieces hadn't really looked like scoring and it almost looked at that stage Man United was starting to get more territory. Aaron Ramsay had made a couple of big saves but also for the moment to come from Willasula, someone who has had injury problems this season is probably fourth choice center forward or he thought he was fourth choice at the forward given that Anthony Gordon has moved there. Newcastle spent 55 million pounds on you on whistle in the summer, 64 million pound on Nick Voldemort and yet he is sent on ahead of you on Whisper largely because he's got legs I think and could run around and try and try and cause that counter attacking threat and then yeah manages to keep the ball in, kills and it cuts inside and then kills. A wonderful finish with his left foot. A huge moment. There haven't been enough of those at St. James's park this season. And yeah, just massive relief after three straight Home Premier League defeats for the first time under Eddie Howe. And it just felt like a big, big moment for him and for the team, even if it only lifts him up to 12th in the table.
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Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, well, on Monday, Matt Slater was with us and actually outlined the difficulty failing to secure Champions League revenues could have for the ambitions of teams like Villa and also Newcastle as well. Now, if you missed it, here's a reminder of what he had to say.
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Stu James
Champions League football is the sort of extra gas.
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Jacob Tanswell
It's that 50, 60 million plus whatever they get an extra, you know, match day and a little bit extra in commercial as well that can keep the sort of. We can keep pushing, but if we
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Stu James
don't get Champions League football, we have to back off. And that might actually slow us down a year, two, three years from where we want to get to, which is,
- [32:00]
Jacob Tanswell
you know, genuinely going eyeball to eyeball with Liverpool City, you know, those clubs that have, that are in the higher bracket.
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Stu James
So I do have sympathy for the
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Jacob Tanswell
villas of this world. I think they're getting a lot right on the pitch. And because they don't have those annual safe revenues, the really big global commercial
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Stu James
revenues, that slightly bigger stadium, they're very
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Jacob Tanswell
dependent, as I say, on the broadcast income which comes with Champions League football. And it just means their squad's a little bit lighter.
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Stu James
And that, I think, has been the issue.
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Ayo Akimolere
This won't be the first time we'll talk about this. And I constantly have Villa fans, Newcastle fans saying the same thing to me, Stu, in terms of this glass ceiling, because you don'. Historically have that kind of global revenue, as Matt's just stated. So you're kind of starting a little set behind right now. Champions League football is so interesting, so important, but it's not always guaranteed.
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Stu James
No, it's so hard. I mean, I wrote down some figures earlier looking at. So the revenue for the 20, 24, 25 season, Liverpool 702 million. Man City 697. Arsenal 690. Man United 666. And then you're looking at Villa's 378. Newcastle 335. How do you compete? I think if you get in the Champions League for one season, then obviously you want to be able to compete in the Champions League. When you're there, you've got to sign players, high quality players. But then there becomes this huge financial pressure to sustain that season on season. It's not enough just to get in one season, you've got to keep doing it. You know, you look at Villa missing out Last season I think that was suggested to be cost them around £70 million. So it's so, so hard. And you know, yes, you know, some of Villa's transfer deals could be better but I think what the big clubs have, they have a margin for error with those deals. They can get some of those wrong and they will still have that squad depth that Matt just talk talked about to get through that. Villa Newcastle probably can't get those decisions wrong. So really, really difficult and I think unless you can turn the dial commercially, you won't really make inroads. You, as Matt just said, you become hugely reliant on that broadcasting revenue. But you know what can. How can Villa and Newcastle compete commercially with the type of clubs I was mentioned at the top there? That's so, so hard. So you know, we can't lose sight of the fact what an incredible achievement it is when it happens is a one off to try and do it consistently to be in that top four or five, you know, you have to have a truly exceptional season and you're relying on one of those other big clubs or two of them falling away a little bit and getting things wrong. So yeah, it's really hard and I think, I think it's quite depressing in a way when I see, and I totally understand this how some Villa fans talk about this now and they say like they're desperate to be in the top four or five this season almost to make sure they don't have financial issues and to keep their best players rather than saying I can't wait to play Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barcelona. And that's. That's kind of where it's got really. And it's. Yeah, it's a sad state of affairs
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Ayo Akimolere
that yeah, for all those wonderful memories of playing these big clubs, Chris, you know there is also that catch 22 whereby how sustainable is a Champions League run and also keeping form in the Premier League which inevitably might get you into it the season after. I mean how have Newcastle cope with it? Because as we've seen time and time again with various teams, it's really hard to keep both in balance.
- [35:27]
Chris Wa
Yeah, I mean two years ago in Newcastle in the Champions League and slipped down from fourth the previous year to finish seventh. It was a real struggle in the Premier League until they were out of it really and out of the Champions League and then they recovered. That was the previous format. This time they've managed to get through in the Champions League. So the change of format has helped them in the sense that it's gotten through in the Champions League but actually there's two extra matches just to get to the knockout phases. They got to. They also have the extra playoff round. So they've had four extra matches to then get to the stage that they're at now. And so although it's helped them get to later in the competition, it's actually probably had an even more detrimental effect on their league form. They're currently down in 12th. They found no consistency whatsoever. They also have gone, they've got to the semi final of the Carabao cup, the trophy to one last year. They're still in the FA cup and because they're doing so well in so many competitions they're playing more than anyone else in Europe. And because of that they, they as Stu mentioned, they just don't have the squad depth really to cope with that. And as soon as they get one or two injuries this season it's been. They've tended to have injuries focused on one position. Had a lot in defense at one stage. I still got a few there. They've got. They've had a lot of midfield. They've had them up front. It's always been focused on one area and then it becomes exacerbated because the same players have to play over and over and over again and I haven't had sort of gimme fixtures like Whereas if you're in the Conference League, no disrespect to teams there but you can make several changes and it's not the same intensity as when you're playing Barcelona, psg, all these other teams. Yeah Newcastle had a walk over second leg against Karabag but beyond that they haven't since they played Bradford in the League cup in September they haven't had a sort of easy game and they haven't had a midweek or weekend off since between the first two games of the season since early August. If you take a national breaks out on that and it's just. It has really taking its toll on them now this is the. This is where they want to be. So some people, fans get frustrated after a while and say well that's just an excuse. This is what Newcastle want to be doing. But because they don't have the revenues yet to be able to compete and have that depth of squad, it is very difficult. They can't pay the wages as well the clubs can. So players leave. Like they obviously had the Alexander Isak situation and last summer's window. The business so far has not necessarily worked out. Even if Jacob Ramsey's starting to look good. Malik Chao has been the one stand outside but the other players they signed haven't had the desired impact. And so it really has a knock on effect on the Premier League form and it looks like they're probably not going to be the Champions League for next year. And just as a final sort of point on that, the weird sort of thing is that although you get greater revenue from the Champions League, both prize money and match, the revenue also being in Europe from now on in an SCR world moving from PSR sword cost rules that actually you ratio of your of your revenue goes, you're allowed 85 in the Premier League but if you're in European competitions it's. It's 70. So although you get extra additional revenue from being in Europe, does that do you actually get penalized as well? Because you've got to be within that 70 threshold. So it's sort of a double edged sword in that regard actually getting it in those UEFA competitions.
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Ayo Akimolere
I wonder how hard it is to run a club like Newcastle and maybe Aston Villa as well. Jacob and how precarious that line is. You have to tread because you know Chris talks about Newcastle still being in certain cups and still being in the Champions League and also in trying to do something in the Premier League. But you know the thing that brought Newcastle a trophy was the Carabao cup, right, the League Cup. But you can't compete on all fronts. I mean what wedges stick or twist? I don't know if there's a right answer here.
- [38:50]
Jacob Tanswell
Yeah, that's a huge question because I think fellow supporters are desperate for a trophy. They have had one approach 30 years now, a major trophy, but also to rubber stamp this, this Emery era. But it just feels like they are living almost like a window to window existence. Every single window that they're so focused on psr. They managed to stave it off last summer by selling a women's team by doing a few other deals in terms of outside the villa park and selling a few things there. Next window they're selling academy players. That's not ideal. Everything seems like a window window existence and they're fine for their lives and they're almost a victim of their own success because this is Villa's third season in UEFA competitions. Therefore they qualify for not only score cost rules adhering to Premier League's PSR but also the football earnings are all which UEFA have as well, which is even tighter than psr. They've got all these issues that are weighing them down and ultimately it's squeezing the fans that's that's impacting the atmosphere because ticket prices have to be or in villas view have to be at a certain level where they can charge £75 for a ticket in the whole end for a game against Leeds United at home or Newcastle United at home. And that's impacting the atmosphere. It's making. It's causing a sense of anxiety and they just feel from people within the club where they've noted that when Man City and Chelsea were on this rise, they didn't have these rules in place. It was pretty lawless back then. They could elevate far quicker. And it's causing anxiety with supporters thinking okay, it's not. We're not looking forward, as Stu says, to playing Barcelona. We're just looking forward to keeping UNAIM real. We're looking forward to making sure that Emery stays for another year or Morgan Rogers stays for another year. Villa park is not big enough essentially and revenue last season with Champions League revenue, television broadcast income accounted for 63% of Villa's overall revenue. So it's so dicey and so precarious that Villa are essentially living like I say, window to window. Not really being able to plan for the long term.
- [40:51]
Chris Wa
Just, just a quick point on that. I mean there's so much debate at the moment about VR and what sort of effect that has on football and football fans. But I think there is almost a wider existential point on this that fans are, are thinking about what's. What's going on with the balance sheet. How can club go from. From window to window. Can. Can Newcastle or Villa sign these players are gonna have to sell these players and it's almost that they have to become financial experts and I realize that that football is a business now and there's so much money involved, but it's just. I don't think that's fair on supporters. That's changed from 10, 15 years ago. It wasn't something that everyone. Nobody was talking about PSR all the time. They weren't talking about SCR and it just feels like almost a wider existential point there as well that I think probably needs to be picked up on more that I don't think that's fair on supporters as well.
- [41:35]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, well, definitely love to delve into this on another podcast gentlemen. Honestly really thought provoking conversation there. I really appreciate your time as always. Jacob, Chris, Stu and also thank you guys for joining us as well. Matt, Davis, Adams will be with you tomorrow with the preview. Looking ahead to the weekend's FA cup action that of course includes Chelsea traveling to Wrexham. We'll catch you next time
- [42:00]
Stu James
you've been
- [42:01]
Narrator/Host
listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal, with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Admir to listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production.
- [42:35]
Ayo Akimolere
Foreign
- [42:39]
Advertiser/Host
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