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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [00:18]
Rob McElhenney
You might say all kinds of stuff.
- [00:20]
Ryan Reynolds
When things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose coverage. You need have coverage options to protect the things you value most. File a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it.
- [00:55]
Rob McElhenney
Because when you're not worried about doing.
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Ryan Reynolds
Things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running's all about.
- [01:09]
Richard Sutcliffe
Run your way@newbalance.com Running the Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:23]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. Wrexham are now just one step away from the Premier League.
- [01:29]
Richard Sutcliffe
It is the ultimate underdog story.
- [01:31]
Ryan Reynolds
A struggling football club rescued by a pair of Hollywood celebrities, triggering an unimaginable string of victories.
- [01:39]
Rob McElhenney
And that is that Promotion, promotion, promotion.
- [01:44]
Ayo Akinwaleere
How have they managed to climb so quickly? And when can we expect to see them in the top flight? Here with us today we have our Wrexham correspondent, Richard Sutcliffe, or Sutty as I might call him on the pod. And also we got Matt Slater as well. Right, certy, let's start with you. Look, for the third consecutive season, Wrexham are celebrating promotion. They're the first team in English football history to win back to back to back promotions. Fair to say they've kept you busy and you've probably gone from instant coffee to potentially espressos at some point. By the time you climb the leagues.
- [02:21]
Richard Sutcliffe
Mate, it is, it's a good way of looking at it that now as press guys we like to the facilities we get and I think my first away games were Altringham and Maidenhead and obviously next season it's Southampton, Leicester, Ipswich, maybe Sunderland. It just shows how far a club's come in, you know, three seasons. It's beyond, I would have thought even the dreams of the Olmers when they took over.
- [02:43]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. But what an achievement this is. And I guess there would have been doubters and still doubters at this moment in time, but, I mean, you can't write off how big this is and how massive this is for the town of Rett.
- [02:54]
Richard Sutcliffe
Oh, it's been life changing for the town. It's a town that's had its hard times, it's lost all its industries or most of its industries, mining, steel. It was just a sort of forgotten place, which, you know, happens to a lot of times, particularly across the north, whether it's Wales, whether it's England. But the civic pride that its football clubs brought back people. Now, I went on holiday with a few later last year and the pride they have of. People always ask where you're from. And when they said Wrexham, I actually said, I watched you all and your chest puffed out a little bit and I thought that was the biggest indication of. Of the transformation that's gone on.
- [03:27]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. Well, back in April 2023, as Wrexham secured their promotion from the National League to the efl, a certain superbly minded journalist we had on the podcast looked into his crystal ball and here's what he had to say.
- [03:44]
Rob McElhenney
This is why it was a genius decision. I think they've got incredible upside. I see them as a championship team quite soon, actually.
- [03:52]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yes. Matt Slater, that was some prediction, mate.
- [03:54]
Ryan Reynolds
Come on.
- [03:55]
Ayo Akinwaleere
But promotion to the championship within. I mean, how have they done it and how did you foresee this?
- [04:01]
Rob McElhenney
How did I foresee it? Well, every now and then you get them right, don't you? Come on. You know, it's very nice of you to play that and not play. All the other predictions I've got wrong. Richard will tell you the sort of the. How in terms of the football, they've improved their squad. They spent in January, which I thought was quite significant. Sam Smith, you know, not many clubs in League one could have gone out and done that. But I think that the sort of, the bigger picture, if you like, sort of the macro picture is, and I think that was the point I was trying to make, was that Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds chose very well. So much of what I do is speaking to people about buying English Welsh teams and they picked a good one. They picked a club with upside that was a sleeping giant, so many of those, but was ripe for progress if managed and done well. Really good footprint in terms of fan base. A good story to tell, that whole kind of Welsh angle. I remember talking to people at Wrexham and They kept making this point, that kind of Welsh football is southern Wales, Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, and then there's us in the north and we've got this sort of half a country. So you add that kind of good raw ingredient with it. Does bear saying again, Ryan Reynolds is not a sort of typical famous person. He's very, very, very famous. So it's really, really weird to sort of get a list and a sort of sports project and for him to do it so well, for him to really put his reputation on the line. If this had gone wrong, you know, cuddly, funny, cute, Ryan Reynolds would be tarnished, certainly in North Wales, Rob McEhaney again, you know, not as famous three, four years ago as he sort of is now, but, you know, a big deal in US tv. Clearly a guy that really gets sport. So there was a good, there was good chemistry between those two, good chemistry between those two and the club they bought. And then of course we've just got the fact that welcome to Wrexham, which might not float everyone's boat, but is this sort of wonderful mashup of Sunderland till I die and Ted Lasso, frankly, has really worked, has really worked as a piece of entertainment and then has really worked as a vehicle to pull this football club along. So the how is a combination of getting all the football decisions right, choosing the right club, Rob and Ryan getting on and sort of sparking off each other. Ryan's enormous fame and just his natural ability to do funny videos. The right, the right quotes and it's everything, everything's aligned, you know, so, you know, I, I, I'm not wearing a hat. If I was, I would be doffing it.
- [06:38]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about welcome to Wrexham a little later on Sati. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because through that program, viewers would have got used to certain faces like Ollie Palmer, Paul Mullen, who are the stars now, I guess, as the program's ev have played a key role in Wrexham's promotion.
- [06:57]
Richard Sutcliffe
Yeah, that's been the most interesting aspect of the season, really, because you mentioned there, you know, Mullin is the poster boy and quite rightly so. You know, 100 odd goals in three seasons. You know, he powered them up the leagues, no doubt about that. But then this season's come along and it's not quite happened for him. He's had two pre seasons which he's missed, which as any professional athlete will tell you, you know, you pay a price for that. And he has, you know, three goals in 20 odd games and they're just jetties ending end of end of January. They had a horrible start to the year. You know, I think it was like they got four points from five games. And Phil Parkinson's reaction was he signed two strikers. He dropped Ollie Palmer, he dropped Paul Mullen from the matchday squad, not just the actual team and just went in a completely different direction. And you know, people absolutely love Ollie Palmer, they love Paul Mullen. So the fans were upset but strength of management and that is, you know, in terms of we asked for like the Howard have got where they have Phil Parkinson's a huge part of that. But also the fact that the owners have come in and they've left it to football. People matl have lost count of the number of times he's met foreign owners who've come in and thought, oh, I know what I'm doing here. And then the clubs, they've lost 30, 40 million within two years. Whereas these guys, they bought a club for £2 million. That I would say now the estimate, now they're in the championship, you're probably looking at 100 million pound value for the club. But that's been done by good sensible football decisions. Whether that's off the pitch. And he's had Shaun Harvey now Michael Williamson, you know, and Fleur Robinson before that, Humphrey Carr. But on the pitch has been Phil Parkinson. That's what's driven it. And obviously Phil is as much a star of the show now as anybody really. You know, everyone's seen his rather potty mouth, halftime dressing downs and things like that. But you know, I went on the first tour to the states in 2023, the pre season tour, and I was walking through, I think, I think it was Raleigh Airport, I couldn't remember which one. It was half past five in the morning and Phil Parkins was about five steps ahead of me and I just saw these women just come out of their shop, you know, bear in mind it's five o'clock in the morning. I said, oh, Phil, Phil, Phil. We're massive fans of the show, don't really like sports but we love you. And they wanted a selfie and I'm thinking, wow, wow, how's that happen? You know, I've known Phil a long time but I've known Phil as the manager of Hull City and Bradford City, not American superstar sort of thing. And. But that's the show. The show has made stars out of. I won't say ordinary people and I mean that in a nice way. Not, you know, in terms of Wayne Jones, you know, The Turf. He's the landlord of the local pub. Again, on the tour last. Last summer in Vancouver, people were queuing around the block to have a selfie with Wayne before the game in the fan zone. And I think that's the secret of the show, which I know we're going to come on to. But it's not just about Reynolds and McElhenney being the stars. It's about the lead singer of Declan Swans. It's about the landlord of the Turf. And that's the beauty of it, because it captures the community. And I think they're the real stars as much as you, Paul Mullen and Ollie Palmer and. And this season, you know, Arthur Okonkwo and people like that.
- [09:54]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. Matt. I want to talk about brand awareness very briefly and obviously the documentary does help with that, but I'm just thinking, you know, Wrexham reaching the Championship, how important this is for their brand awareness. Because a lot of this is also about making money. You know, I was in the New York a couple of months ago and I was watching Arsenal's Champions League and they were shown all the Champions League matches because big football fans there. But then in this corner they were showing Leeds and I was like, that's a championship team. And you've got this pub that actually is there with a little championship section, because obviously I think CBS bought the rights to the Championship as well. So how important is this for the brand awareness of WREX and to have more eyes on the team?
- [10:32]
Rob McElhenney
Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, for that really good reason there, the Championship, the EFL has actually done a really good TV deal. This is the first season of it, the one that we're just coming to the end of. So there's more TV money straight away for getting promoted to the Championship. They're playing bigger clubs, they're playing a lot of ex Premier League clubs that have significant fan bases of their own. Bigger gates. Well, they're going to struggle to get any more in at the racecourse, but they're going to be going to bigger grounds. And I think just from the sort of TV program point of view, there's no danger of getting stale and boring, is there? You know, if a few more years of League one, which is pretty hardly to get out of, has been for other clubs, could have got a little bit stale. But no, you know, we got a whole new series of locations, storylines, you know, I think about that kind of North American audience being introduced to parachute payments, being introduced to really big away followings and really big grounds that wrecks were going to go to and they're not going to be the cuddly fairy tale. There's a lot more scrutiny on this story from within the uk. From within basically sort of English football fans. So I think there's a load more stuff in terms of their brand, in terms of like, you know, what they can do, the money they're going to bring in. The story continues. They are now one step away from the Premier League. Surely the writers, I don't know how much writing they need to do, to be honest, are licking their lips.
- [11:59]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah, for sure. Well, next we'll be joined by Felipe Cardenas to discuss Wrexham's popularity in the.
- [12:05]
Rob McElhenney
U.S. you're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accamulere.
- [12:12]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [13:23]
Richard Sutcliffe
Which chef will out cook outpace, outlast the competition? No chef escapes the clock.
- [13:33]
Rob McElhenney
All new 24 and 24.
- [13:35]
Ryan Reynolds
Last chef standing Sunday night at eight. See it first on Food Network stream next day on Max.
- [13:44]
Rob McElhenney
Look.
- [13:45]
Ryan Reynolds
We're looking at the documentary right there. Hi documentary. Rob and I came together to purchase a football club.
- [13:51]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Well under the co ownership of Rob McEnany and also Ryan Reynolds. Wrexham's popularity off the pitch as much as on it has soared, notably around their documentary series. Welcome to Wrexham. Now joining us to talk about their popularity, particularly in the US is Felipe Cardenas. Now Felipe, talk to us about this. How popular are Rexim and what does this latest promotion represent? And be honest, I can't imagine Rexam or on the lips of every American. But I imagine there's a section of the American public because of this documentary that have warmed to this team.
- [14:24]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, yeah, from a general sense in the United States, Wrexham is well known because of the documentary. That's, that's, that's the bottom line. I think American sports culture loves an underdog. They love a, an engaging entertainment product and they love Hollywood stars that I think that veer off of what they typically do in Hollywood to, to maybe propel a different type of project that seems successful. So like Wrexham has all of that. You've mentioned the, the two owners and listen, I mean I, I have polling, I don't have reporting to tell you how, how popular they are. Wrexham isn't covered on the mainstream, in mainstream media. Like the fact that they are just one step away from the Premier League. You know, that wasn't on, you know, ESPN SportsCenter. It wasn't on CNN. You know, it was the big story, a sports story for cnn. They're not quite there yet. I, I, I still think that it is very much a niche crowd. And when you look at, you know, Ryan Reynolds and, and what, what he has done over the last, you know, decade just in Hollywood listener as well to like go watch his early stuff, you know, when he was not that well known to really see like you know, just how talented a comedian he is and an actor he is. But now, you know, the Deadpool series has really blown up. It has made Ryan Reynolds a figure, a celebrity that, that everybody knows. You know, Rob McElhenny is a bit different. But I have a little tidbit for you. And you know, there's a, there's the big show here on YouTube that you guys may know. Hot Ones is, is a show that you, you may see all types of celebrities on there. So Rob McElh recently and the way he was introduced I think tells you a bit about where Wrexham is in, in terms of American pop culture. Rob McElhinney was, was introduced as one of the stars of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which in my opinion is still one of the best shows on television. It's a, it's excellent. They're going into their 17th season and then the host of Hot One says and you can keep up with him with his Emmy award winning sports documentary series, welcome to Wrexham. Not that he's the owner, not that this is a team that is fighting for promotion. Not that this is a team someday be in the Premier League, which we know is the most popular football league in the United States, you know, bar none, I think. So there's still that bit of, I think a misconception and maybe not a full knowledge of what the project really is or what the goal of the project is, which is to make this football club a very successful one at the top stage. So from just a brand perspective, you know, welcome to Wrexham. As Matt mentioned, you know, it is along the same lines of Sunderland Till I Die. It is, you know, in the realm of Hard Knocks, which is big NFL sports documentary that everybody knows here. Whether you like the NFL or not, you understand every year you wait to see which team is going to be on Hard Knocks and then drive to survive. The F1 series on Netflix, like all this, this whole ecosystem of sports documentaries, that's where welcome to Wrexham is. I still think they need to punch out of that bag to become a well known sports team in the U.S. yeah.
- [17:25]
Ayo Akinwaleere
On that note, Sati, you know, you wrote in your piece on this promotion, you know, that Danny DeVito was also consulted. We'll be dropping a human age later. But, you know, he acted as a sounding board in, in relation to McElhenny. After watching Sunderland Till I Die, you know, like, look, Sunderland were very different situation to Wrexham in many respects. But Felipe says something I thought was really interesting, it has been really fascinating having family that live in America, is that Americans love this underdog story, this do or die story. We've also got the jeopardy of relegation and promotion in the league system in this country. How much do you think that really contributes to the huge popularity of it for American fans? Because it's very different, what they have as a sporting structure in the usa.
- [18:09]
Richard Sutcliffe
Yeah. Whenever you're out in Wrexham, there's busloads and busloads of Americans who come across. Some are on the fourth or fifth visit now, always going in the turf, always meeting Wayne. And when you speak to them, that's one of the factors they always bring that they love about this, is the promotion and relegation. I think obviously in hindsight, this is how it's turned out. The very fact that the first series ended on a low, you know, people forget now that in the end of the first series they actually lost in the playoffs. They lost 5, 4 at home. The dream was over. There was going to be another couple of million pounds it was going to cost the owners. And it felt like the end of the world by giving that side of the story first. Obviously now it's been three back to back to back promotions. It's all success. There's a pitch invasion. It's great stuff. Looking forward to the next year. But by introducing that side of the jeopardy. And also, you know, there was even an episode in that first series should be sat at the gaffer offer, you know, should we get rid of Phil Parkinson? Because it's a very different narrative at that time and I think to actually put that out first has done it such a favor in terms of as a series, as a story, as a narrative. And we could go back to that next season. You know, the step up to the championship is absolutely gigantic, absolutely huge. And this squad needs major overhaul to even survive, I would say, up there. So the narrative next year is going to be very different. You know, it is going to be Jeopardy. Are we going to get relegated? How much will this cost the club? It sounds daft now he's won back to back to back promotions and you know, this shouldn't be a question that we'll be asked, but in modern day football it is. What about Phil Parkinson? You know, if they are 22nd when we're going into December, it's going back to original question. That is part of it, that jeopardy and that being able to go up and down and moving up and down, it's such a big thing and it's such a big appeal to the American market and certainly those fans who, you know, who keep coming back and back and back for repeat visits because they love that aspect of the sport.
- [19:59]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah. How much money would this cost the club, Matt? You know, I'm just thinking the championship, getting a team to be functional in the championship, but also a team ready if they get promoted to the Premier League costs a lot of money. But also I'm thinking as a marketing tool, this documentary must be interesting in terms of opening up Wrexham to bidders, marketeers on an international level as opposed to just an American level and the UK level.
- [20:23]
Rob McElhenney
I'm fascinated by the documentary. I think it's all right. I can't profess saying I've seen all of them, but I've dipped in and out. It's more the idea. And as Felipe has mentioned, we're sort of in a kind of golden age of sports documentaries at the moment. The Last Dance, that was a massive Covid hit. Drive till I survive Drive till survive. There's just so many. Right. And some of it is to do with the explosion in choice, the streamers. Sportswear's really expensive. They know people like sport. So content about sport that isn't. The live stuff is cheaper, but people love knowing behind the scenes. We've seen the all or nothing stuff, you know, is that really behind the Scenes, I don't know. But anyway, we sort of like the idea that it might be. We're nosy, we're curious, we want to know more. So we've got that going on with welcome to Wrexham. You know, my understanding, the conversations I've had with people around the deal, around how Rob and Ryan got together, how Rob sort of got the idea. His genius in this was spotting the desire, the appetite for more, for more. Sunderland till I die. So he got that immediately. That was his entry to football. You know, the story, which I know we've told, we've talked about on this podcast before was, you know, in Covid, you know, he didn't really like football. He used to tease Humphrey Kerr about football. He was told to watch Sunderland till die. Die. He boxetted it in one night. It following morning. I've got an amazing idea. We've got to buy a club. That. That is the story. That's the beginning of this story. He saw that this was a content play, this was about entertainment. He's fallen in love with football and he's fallen in love with Wrexham. And that again is part of the sincerity of the story. But it was a. It was a TV geniuses idea to make TV that started this. So I think the next iteration of this, and we're already, by the way, we're kind of there is welcome to it is a franchise. It's owned by Disney. What do Disney do? Franchises. What is Deadpool a franchise? These guys are really good at entertainment franchises. So we know they've already invested in a Mexican team. Nick Xa again with famous people. Eva Longoria, Justin Verlander, baseball player. His, you know, famous wife, Kate Upson. Loads of them are in there. So I think they've already filmed that. That. So that's coming. They have invested in a Colombian team which I think they're going to rename as Bogota. It's Ecuad, I think is its name. So they're going to give it a more obvious name. Yeah. Is that it? So, you know, so you have the name recognition a bit like kind of psg and everyone. All these clubs want to be known as Paris, you know, Bogota. Well, we've all got. I've got a mental image of Bogota right away. I think I'd watch the first one of welcome to Bogota. We know that Ryan Reynolds was interested we know that Ryan Reynolds was interested in buying an NHL team, Canadian NHL team. Welcome to Help me out here, Felipe. The Hartford Whalers, the, you know, whatever it was that he was looking at.
- [23:14]
Ryan Reynolds
Don't ask me, don't ask me lucky questions.
- [23:17]
Rob McElhenney
I picked the wrong athletic colleague from the other side of the Atlantic. And, you know, I can see a baseball team, double a baseball team somewhere in the middle of nowhere. This is the beginning of something. So this is going to get bigger. But I think Felipe also just, you know, I think it was really interesting that I didn't know about. Was it called Hot Ones? That's a new one for me.
- [23:37]
Ayo Akinwaleere
I'm sure it's a really good one. Yeah, they have to eat like hot sauces.
- [23:42]
Rob McElhenney
Oh, literally.
- [23:43]
Richard Sutcliffe
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Ryan Reynolds
They keep eating chicken. Yeah, they keep eating chicken wings. It gets hotter and hotter and hotter. It's great. Check it out.
- [23:48]
Rob McElhenney
Yeah, it sounds alright. So, but that is a, that's a sort of, kind of, you know, a touch point, right? That's where. That's where he is. For me, the one that was more interesting was the super bowl advert. Now, Felipe, come on. Surely that is a moment. Channing Tating doing a minute or so in the Wrexham dressing room in Super Bowl.
- [24:09]
Ryan Reynolds
But that's the story here, Matt, because for me, here in the us, Wrexham is a celebrity brand. It's not a football club yet. Okay, yes. Like now, we've already discussed it. Getting to the championship, that's next level. Because now the championship, there is an audience here in the US for that. Not to the point where the Premier League is, but, but the championship is going to change a lot for Wrexham. But yes, they are a celebrity brand and that's part of their ongoing story. That's part of the success, to Matt's point. You know. You know, I do wonder if, if, you know, what would this story be like if the owners weren't Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenny? What if they were just like ex footballers, ex American footballers or, or, you know, NFL businessmen? I don't think the story would be what it is today, you know, despite the success of the club. And so the, the people behind the scenes, the people that, that, to Matt's point, that have seen the potential for what this type of story can be in terms of an entertainment product, in terms of a streaming documentary and how to tap into the US market from that perspective, you know, that's still something I think we haven't even, you know, we don't, we don't know what the, what the success looks like there. But Wrexham still is not on the tip of everyone's tongue in America. Are we close? You know, I think we'll find out. We will find out next season. And I thought about this coming into the show. I was like, you know, if they do earn promotion to the Prem, I mean, you know, now we're talking. Now we're talking about Wrexham being on the Today show in the morning, on, on and on, every sports talk radio show, you know. You know, now they're the owners, you know, that's when. That's why they chose these two. That's why these two guys are together. And then they can really discuss the brand and really engage with the American audience. But still, obviously, huge steps to take.
- [25:55]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Very quickly on that. Felipe. I'm just, I'm just thinking, what's in it for these American stars? Fundamentally? I think you've touched on a fair bit that I'm think about Mocabee Jordan with this minority stake in Bournemouth Matt's mentioning for Longoria. Is there an element of just purely making money out of this? Because it's currently in the zeitgeist and actually you can see it, dare I say, an extension of fame in a different realm in many respects.
- [26:17]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, yeah, I think that's part of it. Like, hey, this is a great opportunity for me to plug a story I just filed for the Athletic. It's on there. Read it. And it really is about promotion and relegation in this hemisphere and how the, you know, there's the MLS model, which is a closed system, and there are leagues around the world that are. Start starting to see, well, you know, maybe pausing on promotion. Relegation is good for us. You know why? Because it's, it's financially and economically, it's, it's very promising. It's, it's, it's a bit. Still unstable. The whole, the whole aspect of being relegated, you know, I think from an American ownership perspective, though, yes, this is about, about, about making money. You know, I think that's why these guys get into it. That's why the men and women that are involved at the football level as, as co owners or minority owners, you know, they like the juice that comes with international football notoriety that comes with the stakes that are, that are involved around the world. But of course, this is a business. I, I do think American investors, and we've seen in the Premier League with, with Burnley and Lee's and all that, all those different teams, you know, they, they really do like promotion, relegation. It's like, it's crazy. Like they just enjoy that part of it because it is so foreign. It is such a foreign concept in the American sports model. It just doesn't exist, you know, the, the usl, the United Soccer League, is going to introduce promotion, relegation. In 20 they'll create a division one football league that'll, that'll compete with MLS. And then the American public will have a taste of what pro rail really is. But I think that's part of it. You know, I think it is about making money. It is about trying to grow a brand, to grow a business. But they love the competitive stakes that they don't see in the US If.
- [27:57]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Wrexham don't make it to the Premier League. It's a documentary strong enough to keep new fans coming to this team team. Because as you said, we're on season four now. Are we on season 10? I mean, how much can you flog the same product realistically hoping that it garners more attention?
- [28:13]
Ryan Reynolds
I think the documentary would just be one arm, right? Would just be one piece of the puzzle because, you know, I, I witnessed what the Wrexham fandom looks like a few years ago when I was in North Carolina for the one million dollar soccer tournament. And Wrexham was like, they were the big invite, you know, and Bruce at Dortmund were there, you know, X stars in Dortmund, X stars from, from West Ham, you know, but Wrexham was like, that was the arm were there to watch Wrexham and, and they were more. I think what I noticed from, from these fans that were there is that they viewed these players like, honestly, like as actors. It was almost like they were following the players as, as, as Hollywood stars, not, not so much intrigued by how they do on the pitch or what their player profiles were. These are just, these are people that represent this show that I'm falling in love with. And you've seen Wrexham now begin US tours in the US in, in, in the summer. And I think that'll be a part of how to continue to eng is if they don't, you know, reach the Premier League in their first shot. You know, think of. There are a lot of people, especially in England, that don't think they'll ever make the prem. But in the meantime, I think they have more opportunities to continue to, to, to exploit the brand, to bring the brand new people in the US the summer tours are going to help and the show is going to continue. I think the show will continue to just grab viewers and you have the owners that are just great mouthpieces.
- [29:32]
Rob McElhenney
Felipe, super quick one before you go to your ice hockey practice. Did, did, did, did, did Rexon just have a little glimpse of what it could be in the Premier League in terms of interest in the US and North America with that Birmingham City game? Was there a buzz about that?
- [29:46]
Ryan Reynolds
One a little bit. You know, I think with the way that game ended, you know, and the fact that the owners were there and their reactions and that, that did make, I think, was part of the news cycle, but again, not part of the mainstream news cycle. I think it was very much running across all social media platforms in terms of what, you know, in, in the football ecosystem, of what social media is. I think, think like I said many times, and I don't mean to repeat myself, but they still have a long way to go, honestly. You know, a fabulous win, a, a third straight, a third consecutive promotion. You know, those are, that's a story that I think the American ecosystem of sports, it's a blip and then it comes back. It's a blip and then it comes back here. To be a hero in American sports fandom, you've got to, you've got to hit the home run, as they say, and they haven't quite done that yet.
- [30:33]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Okay, Felipe, really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us all the way from America, brother.
- [30:38]
Ryan Reynolds
Take care, guys.
- [30:41]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Next, we'll ask what it will take for Wrexham to take the final step and reach the Premier League.
- [30:48]
Rob McElhenney
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [30:52]
Ryan Reynolds
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Richard Sutcliffe
Ready to go.
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Ryan Reynolds
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Richard Sutcliffe
Big balls just dropped.
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Ryan Reynolds
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Rob McElhenney
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Ryan Reynolds
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Richard Sutcliffe
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Ryan Reynolds
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- [32:51]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Priceline.
- [32:54]
Rob McElhenney
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O.
- [32:56]
Richard Sutcliffe
Acamolera.
- [32:59]
Ryan Reynolds
We were standing there doing a press conference conference four years, five years, four years ago. That's right. And this man said, we are. Our goal is to make it to the Premier League.
- [33:08]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah. That was Ryan Reynolds speaking alongside Rob McElhenny to Sky Sports. Following Wrexham's promotion from League One about reaching the Premier League In March, the Athletic reported how to the end of June 2024, McEnany and Reynolds had lost almost £11 million in getting Rex into League One.
- [33:26]
Richard Sutcliffe
Last.
- [33:27]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Now, Sati, you wrote how last season their turnover had more than doubled. To listen to this. £26.7 million in their first year back in the EFL with more success. That turnover should only rise, shouldn't it?
- [33:40]
Richard Sutcliffe
Absolutely. And uni, I think that those turnover levels came in League two, you know, the bottom division. So to get that sort of money, it's unheard of at that level. I'm told the income won't be massively different this year in League one, which obviously they've won promotion, but that takes them into now a division where, you know, we're talking, you know, teams with cost of the parachute payments, incomes in the 100, 100, 100, £510,000,000, which is a very different playing field to where they've, where they've been before. So it's, it's going to be tough, but it can only grow, you know, Interesting. They're listening to Felipe and, you know, it sounds like they need to get into the Premier League to really hit the mainstream in America in. And yet even they're nowhere near that at the moment. They're still earning a lot of money for a sports team over here. You know, I mentioned that 26.7 million, 52% of that sum came from abroad, most of it from North America, which, again, shows the strengths of the business model because, you know, it sounds like they've got a hell of a long way to go, so you could keep growing that, but, you know, they're on a different playing field now. You know, as Matt knows better than anybody, you know, there's money in the championship is, you know, you've got clubs who are losing, you know, £25 million just to. Just to. Just to tread water and end up in the middle of the division. What I will say is like, they're going up and they've got a bit of headroom in terms if they want to go for it. You know, you mentioned that huge income level. They still lost 2.7 million pounds last season. I've been told it's going to be a similar loss this season. So we're talking, what, five, five and a half million. That means next year, if they wanted to, you could lose 35 million pounds if you want to, and you'd still be within the FFP or whatever it's called days up in the. Up in the championship. Obviously, then if you didn't go straight up, then you've got problems the following year because you can't then breach it, you know, any further than that. But they've got some headroom to have a go. You know, I'm going to be fascinated what they do this summer, because they haven't really. They spent a lot of money on wages until January, but up to then, you know, like until a year ago, the record fee was 300,000. They then brought that and it was still only 590,000 for more fat back in September. But then in the summer, sorry, in January, they then spent £2 million on Smith and about £500,000 on Longman, but then took over J Rodriguez Burnley contract, which was obviously a decent contract and that was a significant step forward for the club. But there's obviously going to have to be a hell of a lot more than that now, because if they're going to not sink, if they're going to, like, prosper rather than sink in the championship.
- [36:10]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Yeah. Matt, how hard is it to really get a return on your investment when you do buy a football club, especially as you've been climbing but now you are in the championship? I mean, you're going to have to spend a whole heap of a lot more money on this team to try and get them to the Premier League. But also people forget, you know, you want better players. Those are higher wages.
- [36:29]
Rob McElhenney
Yeah, yeah. Well, look, well, no. 1, they're not proper businesses. I mean, I pretend they are, but they're not. You know, we just forget that. So the return on investment, though, does come. It does come, but you have to wait. It comes when you sell. Right now, you either sell all of it and walk away with hopefully a nice tidy profit, or you sell bits on the way, which they're already doing, by the way. And I'm sure Richard, because I know he's written about it, is going to talk a little bit about the minority investment they brought in. The Allen family, Benchley family, billionaires states, you know, again, more, you know, and I think that's going to think of it like a syndicate. A lot of these teams are basically run by syndicates. People will come in, there'll be people leaving as they progress and the story develops. But that is how, how, if you like, the founders, the. The original investors start to sort of take some money out. Now, in terms of, you know, Rob and Ryan, I think the key thing that I'm not sure is fully grasped is Wrexham don't see any of the profits, direct profits from the program. So we know that original deal they did with the supporters way back when was 2 million to buy the club. There was a vote, you know, what a sensible decision that was to let them take the club on. They lent the club money, shareholder loans. Sounds like other podcasts we've done. I think that loan was up to about 15 million at 1 point. There was interest that now has been paid off. So you've got Rob and Ryan who have put some money in, not as much as people think, but what they have put in, and I think I said it right at the top, is their reputations on the line. Like I said, if this had gone wrong, if this had been the Glazers or something else, this would have been a blow to the. Their lovely images. And it hasn't. Right. So it's gone well for them, it's gone really well for the club. And the way that the program, if you like, filters money back into the club is not via, you know, streaming fees that Rob Bryan And Disney are pocketing fair play. Good idea. Nothing wrong with that. It's the sponsorships. And if you look at like their kind of turnover profile, half of it is basically commercial. That's like a big six club. That's sort of what I would expect to see of Liverpool and Man City and United and so on. So just some multiples. Right. So they've quadruped their turnover since the National League days. It was 6, it's now 26 or something. Heading to sort of 27, 28. This is always a year behind. Right. So this is like a League 2 snapshot. We've got, you know, a big club in League two, Bradford, biggest, biggest gates. They earned about eight and a half, nine million. So they're three times bigger if you think about a big club in League one. So Portsmouth getting promoted last year they went up with turnover of 13 and a half. So they're twice as big as Portsmouth in terms of turnover. Where would they sit right now? So again, a League two number. But Richard has told us it's going to be similar for this season. They are already earning more than Hull, Preston, loads of clubs. So the way the Championship basically is you either get a parachute payment or you. The parachute payments. The clubs tends to be about half a dozen, but it's fewer at the moment, which I will come back to, because three up, three down at the moment, you know, that we just keep replacing. So there are fewer clubs than traditionally there have been with parachute payments. They average a turnover between 60 and 70 million. Richard did say that some are 100 million clubs. Those are very rare. Those are your Leeds United's or Leicester Cities.
- [39:53]
Richard Sutcliffe
Yeah, that's what I meant.
- [39:54]
Rob McElhenney
Leeds, typically a parachute payment club, is 60 to 70 million. The rest, the 18 to 19. The others are on about 20 to 25. Wrexham are already there. That is before they get the 8,9 million boost on TV, you know. So Wrexham are going to go into the Championship as the. As the best of the rest in terms of turnover.
- [40:20]
Richard Sutcliffe
The most really interesting aspect of it is, like you said, you know, income league to 26.7. I said there'll be a lot more. But as Matt's just said, the difference between central payments and your Solidarity payment from the Premier League, it comes to about 8 to 9 million. Sunderland, in their last financial figures in the Championship, their income was something like 35, 36 million pounds. Wrexham, if you include the extra Solidarity payments, are already there. And that's with Sunderland getting 38,000 and Wrexham last season getting 11, 11,000. 500.
- [40:52]
Rob McElhenney
There you go.
- [40:52]
Richard Sutcliffe
That's. Yeah, I'll admit I was sceptical about the Premier League line right from the start. Obviously, we all saw it. Rob Brackel, and he says it in the first press conference that they did at the racecourse, fair play to him. But you speak to people about Rob and you speak to him yourself, and he's very much, as you'd say, an A to Z guy, not an A to B. You know, he wants to go all the way. You know, he's all in. And the Premier League line, to me, I was thinking it sounds great, but this is a club the highest ever position is 15th in the old Division 2, which is very modest by British football standards. And I thought, they get to the championship, brilliant. But then it's a different playing field. But I think, and certainly since the Allen family have come on board and it is the strategy that the men know Bones about, it will be they will be selling off minority shareholding. I've changed my mind. And I think it's a race in certainty they'll reach the Premier League. Now, it won't be this time next year, probably won't be the year after that, but I'd say within three years, years, I can see Wrexham kicking off in the Premier League. And as Felipe said earlier, that is the ball, that is the whole game changer. It's a different ballpark then, because suddenly they're playing Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United, clubs that the wider American sporting public are very familiar with. What happens then? You don't know, do you peak at that moment or can it build? But I do see them getting to the Premier League, I really do.
- [42:08]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Rob Mcelinelli was talking about that, actually, I can't remember. It was. I think it was after the promotion and he was saying, you know, we're heading to the Premier League and he believes they can do that. But he was like, yeah, we're up against sovereign states and all this kind of stuff. I mean, that would be a fascinating look at how the club is structured and how they even perform in the Premier League. But quickly, Matt, we like to talk about well run clubs on this podcast. From what where you're sitting, looking at this structure right now, does it seem like it's a well run club and actually well run to the point of sustainability? Because that's the big factor here for me.
- [42:42]
Rob McElhenney
Yes, it does, but with a few provisos. Right, so the first thing is this progress, this change has been rapid, arguably sort of too rapid at times. You know, they have had this Big budget. So National League, League two, League one, they have had an advantage over certainly National League and League two, all the clubs and this season all, let's say Bar, Birmingham. Now there have been some other clubs with big budgets, Huddersfield, Bolton, so it's not been, been, you know, they've got to be streets ahead but they've had an advantage. Next season's, you know, the first time under this ownership where they're not going to be that club. They're going to be, you know, towards the top but they're not going to be the really big FC Hollywood type budget. The other thing is that the Wrexham they bought was in a really bad state. It had stabilized under fan ownership but it didn't own its ground. It still, it was renting training ground and it was basically run by volunteers. The change has been so quick that it's been hard to sort of keep up. Now they've had to hire a load of staff. There's been a lot going on behind the scenes. Rich has written a lot about it. New chief execs coming in, you know, new marketing people. Ryan Reynolds, own marketing company Maximum Impact is now taking a big role. All that commercial income has to be got. You know, you have to go out and win it and pitch for it and then you've got to activate it. All this kind of marketing buzzword nonsense. But it is a cost. It requires people, people, good people and maintain it.
- [44:08]
Richard Sutcliffe
That's the, that's the key.
- [44:09]
Rob McElhenney
Well, you got exactly, exactly, exactly. You can't just say thanks very much for the check. Yeah, you know, wait for the TV program, you'll love it. You know, you've got to, you've got to. These are, these are commercial relationships and your sponsors expect things from you. You know these tours to the States, they don't just organize themselves so they've had to hire a lot of people. They need a training ground. Richard has written about that. They absolutely need a training ground. Didn't really matter in National League because no one's got Etihad campus down there. Probably didn't matter so much in League 2. Starting to matter now. Will definitely matter next year. Players will turn their nose up at having a change, you know, in the car. So, you know, they got to sort that out and I know that they have plans to the stadium. So they own the stadium now. They're doing this big project on the cop. One of their ends which was empty, you know, was an eyesore for years because the fan owned club couldn't do anything with it. It's going to be a fantastic five, 6,000 capacity, beautiful cop. That's going to take a year to build. So they're going to go three sides again next year. Now, because of their commercial income, because of their increased broadcasting revenue, the dip in Matchday won't matter so much. But you know, they've got to manage that. That's a lot of people that want to see Wrexham that won't be able to get in. So they are well run. They're getting there. But it's been hard. Building stuff in this country is difficult. They had this project with the council and the railway next door. You know, opening up Wrexham, all of that takes time. We'll get there. They want to go to 28, 30,000 with the stadium. So they're going to do. Stand by, stand again. Great idea. Go do it. There's a lot going on. They've got a new CEO. He's been there for about a year. Michael Williamson, ex Inter. That was interesting. They went out and got him. San Siro, he'd been on that project. He also worked in the States. These are American DC United. So they are gearing up on the pitch, off the pitch. They're doing all the right things. So, yeah, they are. Well run.
- [45:55]
Ayo Akinwaleere
Okay, gents, let's leave it there. Matt, Richard and also Felipe for joining us earlier. Thanks so much for your insight and also thank you guys for listening. Adam Leventhal will be with you tomorrow. We'll catch you soon.
- [46:06]
Richard Sutcliffe
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast.
- [46:09]
Rob McElhenney
The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal.
- [46:12]
Richard Sutcliffe
The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead.
- [46:14]
Rob McElhenney
To listen to other great athletic podcasts.
- [46:16]
Richard Sutcliffe
For free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify, Apple and all the usual places.
- [46:20]
Rob McElhenney
The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [46:27]
Richard Sutcliffe
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.