Who are the Premier League's most powerful figures?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Who are the Premier League's most powerful figures?

Date: March 24, 2026
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Matt Slater, Carl Anker

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Overview

This episode delves into the question: who truly holds the power in the Premier League? Is it the players, managers, sporting directors, or the owners? Host Ayo Akinwolere, with Matt Slater and Carl Anker, dissect the evolving landscape of influence in the league. Drawing on both historical context and present-day dynamics, they explore how roles have shifted, where true authority now lies, and how these shifts impact club success and stability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Power in the Premier League

[01:22 – 04:10]

• Growth of Influence: While influential individuals have always existed, the Premier League's increasing global stage amplifies their prominence.
• From Manager to Multilevel Leadership:
  • In early Premier League days, the manager did four or five jobs; now, those duties are compartmentalized among sporting directors, technical directors, and more.
  • Carl Anker: “Manchester United right now hire more people in charge of their academy than they had across their entire club in their treble winning season.” [03:22]

2. The Role and Impact of Players

[04:21 – 11:55]

• Players as Short-Term Influencers:

  • Star players can be pivotal, especially in a single season, but rarely shape a club's long-term trajectory.
  • Comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo, noting few approach such transformative importance.
  • Player departures are often overcome; clubs adapt, new favorites emerge.
  • Carl Anker: “Ronaldo's a really interesting figure in that his impact...are mostly in terms of socials and the online metrics…he's not so much a football player as he is a...phenomenon.” [06:36]
  • Matt Slater: “None of those people are players. None. Not one. They're not really in the debate [for most influential].” [04:54]

• Medium and Long-Term Decisions:

  • Impactful decisions about stadiums, finances, or club direction surpass what players can influence.

3. The Shifting Influence of Managers

[14:53 – 26:33]

• Managerial Power: Then and Now:

  • Few managers today wield Sir Alex Ferguson-level control; the “manager as king” era is waning.
  • Modern managers often frustrated by limited powers, especially in recruitment.

• Maresca and Amarin Case Studies:

  • Tensions arise when head coaches want more say; sporting directors and execs hold key decision-making roles.
  • Carl Anker: “If you look at the first ten years of the Premier League...managers had a longevity that just does not exist anymore.” [15:34]
  • Managers' job security is increasingly precarious due to financial stakes and heightened expectations.

• Structural Changes:

  • Managers now focus more on team affairs; overarching strategies and club identities shift to directors/executives.
  • Communication becomes a larger part of the manager's public role.
  • Matt Slater: “So much of the manager’s job is communication…at times it is as simple as ‘Why did you lose that game?’ to ‘You haven’t paid the wages last month.’” [19:14]

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Slater on the myth of managerial impact:
  "Sir Alex Ferguson is an outlier...plus eight points on his wage bill... Pep Guardiola, Arteta right now at about plus four. Managers don’t really move the needle that much." [27:46]
• Arteta as Exception:
  • Arteta's promotion from ‘Head Coach’ to ‘Manager’ at Arsenal illustrates rare modern instances where a coach accrues greater influence after success. [24:19]

4. Sporting Directors: The UK “Teething Process”

[30:40 – 39:26]

• Theory vs. Practice:

  • The sporting director model is promising but inconsistently executed in England.
  • Their primary perception remains recruitment-focused, unlike continental clubs where their remit is broader.

• Success Rate & Transferability:

  • Good sporting directors in one league may flounder elsewhere due to contextual differences and the importance of networks.
  • Carl Anker: "The hit rate on getting a good sporting director is really, really hard...it's not necessarily as transferable as the same way a good football manager is." [37:28]

• Case Studies & Examples:

  • Monchi (Sevilla vs. Roma, and Aston Villa), Edwards (Liverpool), Dan Ashworth (FA, Newcastle, Manchester United).
  • Tension and incompatibility between managers and directors often lead to instability.
  • Matt Slater: "Has one really delivered to the point where I think they are the most important person at a British club?...I don't think so. Not yet." [32:57]

5. Owners as Ultimate Power Brokers

[41:21 – 47:29]

• Financial Realities:

  • Most clubs are loss-making businesses; owners’ willingness to fund shortfalls determines survival and ambition.
  • Ownership's appetite for risk, vision (or lack thereof) directly sets the club's trajectory.
  • Matt Slater: “Most of the time at most clubs, the most important person is the owner…if that stops, the club’s got an immediate short-term problem.” [41:43]
  • Types of Owners/Executives:
    • Some clubs are significantly shaped by the owner (or their direct executive). E.g., Daniel Levy at Spurs.
    • For “aspirational clubs,” the owner’s investment and strategic vision are paramount.

• Case Example: Manchester United:

  • Carl Anker’s “Power Timeline” Model:
    • Short-term: star player (Bruno Fernandes)
    • Medium-term: sporting director (Jason Wilcox)
    • Long-term: owner/investor (Sir Jim Ratcliffe)
  • Carl Anker: “Tactics is Bruno Fernandes, strategy is Wilcox, and logistics is Sir Jim Ratcliffe, or indeed the person Sir Jim deigns to put in charge.” [44:51]

• Risks of Over-centralization:

  • Clubs that hand total power to a manager (e.g., Klopp at Liverpool, Emery at Aston Villa) risk major upheavals upon eventual departure.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Quote | Speaker | |----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | 03:22 | “Manchester United right now hire more people in charge of their academy than they had across their entire club in their treble winning season.” | Carl Anker | | 04:54 | “None of those people are players. None. Not one. They're not really in the debate [for most influential].” | Matt Slater | | 06:36 | “Ronaldo's... impact in the last five to six years... are mostly in terms of socials and the online metrics... a phenomenon.” | Carl Anker | | 15:34 | “If you look at the first ten years of the Premier League...managers had a longevity that just does not exist anymore.” | Carl Anker | | 19:14 | “So much of the manager’s job is communication…at times it is as simple as ‘Why did you lose that game?’ to ‘You haven’t paid the wages last month.’”| Matt Slater | | 27:46 | “Sir Alex Ferguson is an outlier...plus eight points on his wage bill... Pep Guardiola, Arteta right now at about plus four. Managers don’t really move the needle that much.” | Matt Slater | | 37:28 | "The hit rate on getting a good sporting director is really, really hard...it's not necessarily as transferable as the same way a good football manager is." | Carl Anker | | 41:43 | “Most of the time at most clubs, the most important person is the owner…if that stops, the club’s got an immediate short-term problem.” | Matt Slater | | 44:51 | “Tactics is Bruno Fernandes, strategy is Wilcox, and logistics is Sir Jim Ratcliffe, or indeed the person Sir Jim deigns to put in charge.” | Carl Anker |

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Key Timestamps

• 01:22 – 04:10 | Framing the debate: Has individual influence grown along with the league?
• 04:21 – 11:55 | Players’ influence: short-term impacts, star power, case studies.
• 14:53 – 26:33 | Managers: old vs. new powers, specific club examples (Amorin, Maresca, Arteta).
• 30:40 – 39:26 | Sporting directors: theory, practice, case studies (Edwards, Ashworth, Monchi).
• 41:21 – 47:29 | Owners and club custodians: financial power, examples (Man United, Spurs).
• 44:51 – 47:29 | Composite model of influence at clubs; rationale for divided power.

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Conclusion

The episode compellingly unpacks the myriad layers of influence in modern Premier League clubs. While star players still captivate fans and managers remain in the public eye, the real long-term power rests increasingly with well-resourced owners and, to a lesser but growing extent, sporting directors. Yet, English football is still finding its footing with the sporting director model. The fundamental argument: true power and enduring influence in football are less about an individual and more about the structures—and people—who steer clubs over the long arc of seasons and decades.

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For further exploration, Matt and Carl drop several book recommendations, including "Soccernomics" and “How to Win the Premier League,” for those interested in data, recruitment, and management in modern football.

Transcript

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[Ayo Akimolere]

The Athletic fc. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. From players and managers to executive and owners, the Premier League is made up of some pretty big personalities. But who are the most influential? All right, in with us for this one. We've got Matt Slater. We've also got Karl Anker as well. Matt, before we get into this, as the reach of the league has definitely grown, is it fair to say that the influence held by the key individuals around the league has also grown as well?

[Matt Slater]

First of all, I thought you were talking about me and Carl being the, you know, the most influential people here, but it's very kind of you.

[Ayo Akimolere]

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[Matt Slater]

It's a tear sub like that. I mean, yes and no. It's all relative, isn't it? They've always been really, really important people within the game. But I guess what you're saying is the Premier League is now this, this global entity and, you know, to some people think it is the European, the de facto European super league. It's certainly the most popular association football domestic league. So the big dogs, whoever they might be, and we're going to, we're going to argue about that, me and Carl. Don't you worry. They are important. But, but it is relative. You Know, if we, if we just turn the clock back to the beginning of the Premier League, you know, so that's not that long ago. 30 odd years, there were some very, very, very influential people at, at all the big clubs that shaped that, that led that move, you know, through the 80s and you know, what a seismic change that was and you know, set us on this path to where we are now to sort of frame your question. Really, really important people, big players, big managers, big owners, big execs. So I don't, I don't think those people have actually got any bigger or more important. It's just that, yeah, the profile is, the stage is way bigger.

[Carl Anker]

I think a good way I often think about this is Manchester United right now hire more people in charge of their academy than they had across their entire club in their treble winning season. So to go up to Matt's point, if you go back to the start of the Premier League, the most important person at nearly every single Premier League club was the manager. And the manager did four or five jobs. Whereas now we are increasingly coming to, particularly with the top half clubs and top six clubs, we've increasingly understand now that the manager is, the role is too big for one person to do. And you've got to compartmentalize that by having a sporting director, a technical director. Or this one, or this one, this one, this one, this one. Whereas in 1994, 1995, Sir Alex Ferguson, for example, did the lot himself.

[Matt Slater]

Jack a shot Peterson, A special moment for their new captain, Granit Jack.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's see, start then with the players because they're fundamentally the ones that entertain us. They're also the ones that us fans will buy their shirt and have the name on the back as well. So Matt, let's start with you on this one because look, I'm sure you have a lot to say about the business of football and also the importance of being in the Premier League for a number of clubs. But I want to start with Sunderland and at one player in particular, Granis Jaka. A play that actually many raised their eyebrows and thought, why have Sunderland gone for him? For their survival this season, we have to say a player like him has been influential.

[Matt Slater]

Yeah, hats off to Granite. Well, well done. I'm not being rude, I genuinely mean that. I. But I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sort of set my stool out right from the beginning on, on this debate. Okay, I'm gonna look at this in sort of two ways. There's people who are important right now to this season and they should really be the players because the players are what, win or lose your games. But I'm then going to go the other way and sort of say if we're having a debate about who's the most important person at your club, we're talking about businesses, clubs, companies, whatever, that have been around for 100 years. Right. And we'd like them to be around for another hundred. None of those people are players. None. Not one. They're not really in the debate. I mean, the type of player that would enter the debate is someone like Lionel Messi at Barcelona. We are talking about a handful. I would be talking about a handful in my lifetime of following this sport that would have that kind of outsized impact where they are the best, clearly the best player, the most important employee, the sort of future prospects going beyond this season, you know, like to medium term are so wrapped up in either this player continuing to play at this level, keeping them engaged, who might want to come play with them, what impact that player would have on our wage bill, what sort of transfer value they have going forward. Maybe Messi is still that exception. You know, maybe he's that important to Inter Miami. He probably is. Has Ronaldo ever been that important? Possibly. Maybe now. Maybe now.

[Carl Anker]

But Ronaldo's a really interesting figure in that his impact, I'd say his impact in the last five to six years of his career now are mostly in terms of socials.

[Matt Slater]

Yeah.

[Carl Anker]

And the online metrics. So Cristiano Ronaldo's announcement, transfer announcement to be a Manchester United player was. Manchester United were very loud about this. They called it the. The most interacted with social media post in football history. And the it surpassed a post made by Messi and it also surpassed the pre one of the previous transfer announcements which was Cristiano Ronaldo going to Juventus. But Ronaldo is top five people on the planet in terms of Instagram followers. He's not so much a football player as he is a just. You can call it an institution, a phenomenon, particularly in social particularly. And his impact on football clubs when he arrives and also when he leaves is really, really interesting. So if you look at Juventus, Juventus Instagram following took a hit once he left and went over to Manchester United and then you see shirt sales. And I think it's really interesting. I mean simply him being in Saudi Arabia and the impact that's had on the Saudi Arabian League has been interesting in terms of eyeballs and optics. Now I am going to be cheeky and then just go back, Matt, in terms of median term profile Grant A Xhaka might be that important to Sunderland in that if Xhaka is doing this footballing impact right now to keep Sunderland within the Premier League. And I will say, and I, I think it's not ridiculous to me to say Xhaka going to Sundan when he did in the summer sort of put a signal out into European football that Sunderland's going to be building a serious footballing project and that allowed more football players to go over to Sunderland this season. Xhako might be Sunderland's most important player between now and the next three years if Sunderland maintains Premier League status, which could very well happen.

[Matt Slater]

Yeah, I think that's a good point. And the only thing I'd add, players come and go. It's just a fact. And if you just think about whatever club you support, you know, the favorite player, the player you didn't want to go, and then they did, and then maybe there was a dip. But you know what? You coped. You got over it. You bought a player, someone else came through. That's just the life cycle of clubs and players. And I can give you a couple of examples that have just, just sort of occurred to me. Whilst Carl was talking, you know, Brenford, Bret, everyone thought, oh, my word, they've sold, you know, Whisper and B, those are, those are like the exciting players. That's how we got out the seats. They provided all the goals, you know, amazing on. On the break, you know, so it wasn't just that they were really good. There was something kind of really particular about what they brought to Brentford. They sell them and they're fine. Bournemouth. Oh, you know how on earth they sold what? Kirkez, Hayson, Zubiani. So that's like three of their really good defense. Oh, then they sell Semenya. That's all Butar. So they, you know, it's only four of their very best players. And you know what? It looks like they found four more.

[Carl Anker]

Okay, Matt, I'm going to say this and I hope I'm going to be respectful here, okay? You keep using medium term and long term and you've been working as a sporting journalist for far longer than I have and you've been able to. You've been able to look at this because your version of medio term and long term is closer to decades, whereas, thank you, a lot of football. Whereas for a lot of football fans, it's in terms of maybe a World cup cycle, like four years. And yeah, you're bang on in that. You're giving examples of Bournemouth. Find a Way to crack on. And so have Brentford. There's also the point in my brain going, look at Southampton, they were doing well. They were the darling of figuring things out and then they lost that sort of recruitment, special source. And now they're battling in the playoff. Well, they might get in the championship playoff. Now is that a case of the player was really important or is it the case of the person in charge of recruiting somewhere else?

[Matt Slater]

I think you've proved my point, Karl. I think you've proved my point.

[Carl Anker]

All right, keep going.

[Matt Slater]

So the players were good and the team did okay and then the players weren't so good. The team's not doing so okay. So I think that's the decision making above, isn't it? The key decision maker makers got things wrong relative to the field, you know, because it's not like all clubs have failed. Oh no, the other clubs are able to replace their players or even improve. You know, Southampton go that way, Sunderland go that way. That's those, those are the sort of yings and yangs of the pyramid system. So I would argue that that supports my view that players are the stars of the show. No one is more important in what I would call the short term, that is this season. And I'll certainly acknowledge your point that Sunderland staying up is a story and is a huge result for a team to come up through the playoffs with that squad, the massive overhaul they did during the summer. Granit Xhaka was you alright, a sort of totemic type signing and then for him to perform at this level. But it's a bit of a reach to say that he's the most important person at Sunderland. I still think that footballers, great footballers, bad footballers, have an impact in the short term. Whereas if we're talking about the most important person at your club is someone who is thinking, season 2, 3, 4, 5 do we build this stadium? Do we move? Do I put money in the training ground? Oh no. My business has fallen apart. I need to sell. How do we keep this club out of administration? Those are the most important people.

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[Carl Anker]

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[Matt Slater]

I came here to be the manager of Manchester United, not to be the coach of Manchester United.

[Carl Anker]

I know that my name is not

[Matt Slater]

Tuchel is not Conte, he's not Mourinho, but I'm the manager of Manchester United.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Let's move on and start talking about positions of power because this season's names like Enzo Maresca, Ruben Amarim has highlighted to the level of power that managers can have in controlling the narrative around the club. Karl Both of those men are now not with their respective teams but what are your thoughts on the amount of power that a manager should have? Because with your Manchester United hat on, for instance, Sir Alex Ferguson all wielding power across Manchester United and I don't know if we see many of those men anymore in football these days.

[Carl Anker]

No, no, they're a fast dwindling breed. If you look at Reuben Amrom's departure, his final press conference was said I'm going to be the manager of Manchester United, not the coach. I know I'm not a Tusho, I know I'm not a etc. Etc. I'm going to be the manager now. Ruben Ramon's title was head coach and I wrote about this when he departed in that it was a really bullish exit and it suggested that there was some form of disagreement between him and the sporting director, which was Jason Wilcox, in that there was this appeared to be some sort of friction over Reuben Amren, who was the head coach and he wanted the classic privileges isn't even the word responsibilities and scope of a Premier League manager of let's say 1997, 1998 of the Sir Alex Ferguson mold. Arsene Wenger this is a massive over simplification but very, very often in my experience in the last three or four years when I'm listening to a manager having this form of conversation, it tends to happen around a transfer window and it tends to have some form of conversation about player recruitment. It tends to be a coach who stood there in front of microphone sometimes after a disappoint result going what am I supposed and they're more or less trying to say what am I supposed to be doing with this squad where I'm not in charge of who comes and who goes. And it felt as if, particularly with Roman Amren's case, there seemed to be some sort of friction or tension between the signing between him and Jason Wilcox around the signing of Anton Semeno and Semenya was the number one attacking player available in the January transfer window. Ruben Amren seemed quite open to bringing him in and there appeared to be a pause or a friction in bringing him in there. Now again, please tell me Matt, if I'm Being rude here. The Premier League has changed in the last 30 years in that what you used. If you look at the first 10 years of the Premier League, you had managers that were in place for two to three seasons in charge and they had a longevity that just does not exist anymore. Mikel Arteta in Premier League terms is a dinosaur. Pep Guardiola being charge of Manchester City for 10 years, frankly unprecedented. Now you are getting maybe a season and a half of a manager slash head coach being in charge and if they cannot produce results, be it if you're at a top six club, get us into the Champions League places, if you're at a sort of mid table club, can you hold water or indeed if you are. Especially what we're seeing now is because there is so much money in the Premier League, if you're a team that is vaguely in danger of getting relegated, teams now are going to pull the plug way more often than the managers that they're for. Season two, season three, season four, the average, you know, the post sir ax works in the era of Manchester United, the average manager now is in charge for two and a half seasons. And this has been brought up to Ruben Amren, it's been brought up to erik10hag about sort of do you think, going to get season three because very few of them have. And if a manager can get to season three, what can you do? And part of that I think now is this is where the tension is in that you're seeing the more moneyed clubs going, well, we don't want to give you recruitment responsibilities because we don't want to give you 200 million, 100 million plus or 200 million plus in a window. Whereas there's a good chance you're going to be here in two years. Whereas Enzo Maresca, Aruben, Amren, and this is me being in the room sometimes and looking at these press conferences, you could feel a sort of frustration from these figures going, well, how on earth am I supposed to build anything in two years or in three years if you're not giving me total control over player recruitment? And here is the tension in that the Premier League for better or worse now has essentially too much money to be patient.

[Matt Slater]

Look, I completely agree and yeah, to sort of follow up on my kind of not having the fact that a player could be the most important person at your club? I'm going to continue on this path. Look, there are some exceptions. I, I'm willing to acknowledge there are one or two clubs, one or two managers who are so good or who are so central to that club's kind of story that they, they are the most important person at that club. But again, a handful for the most part. There's a huge kind of perception gap between what we, the public, think a manager is doing, right? So they are. They're usually the only person at the club, not a player, who we ever get to hear from, who we ever get to talk to. And you sort of see this at times, like when there's a big crisis at a club, like, you know, a financial issue or they're in trouble for something. You know, you're asking the manager, because the manager has to, you know, face up to the media a couple times a week, and they're basically being asked questions that are so beyond their remit that it's ridiculous. But that's because, you know, the owner's bloody miles away and doesn't. Doesn't answer any, any questions to anyone or the executive is hiding or whatever it might be, right? So that's just the way it is. That's sort of almost like a sort of structural issue within the game that the manager. So much of the manager's job is communication, you know, communicating to us, communicating to fans, communicating to his players through the media. And at times it is as simple sort of stuff like, why did you lose that game to, you know, you haven't paid the wages last month. That is just part of the job. Whether they are capable of answering the question, whether it's fair to ask them or not, that they are just the face of the club. So I think it's really interesting that you framed it around Maresca and Amarin, because I think both of those cases were really kind of like great illustrations of how hard it is to be a manager. So if you think about Maresca, what he was saying was, but I'm kind of in charge here, but I'm not really in charge. And his issue, the one that flared up, was around playing time, wasn't it? It was around how you manage people coming in and out of injuries. So, you know, I think, I think one of the issues around Cole Palmer, so, you know, we know Cole Palmer's been kind of tired and carrying injuries, and when he, when he came back, the boss of medical was like, well, he's on a. He's on a minutes restriction. So again, this is a very kind of American idea. Maresa couldn't say that. Marissa couldn't say, oh, I've got to ease calmer back, or I've got to take him off after 55 minutes, 60 minutes. I've just got to. I've been. I've been overruled by the head of medicine, the sports science people. I've been told he's got to come off. So when Mareska takes him off, the fans go, you don't know what you're doing. You don't know what you're doing. You're an idiot. He's got to go, well, I want to say it's not my decision, but I can't. And then, of course, he gives his. What is the worst. What was his line that we all went, whoa, that was a bit. Where's that come from? Did he say it was the worst weekend of his life was 72 hours? Something like that. The last 48 hours has been the worst 48 hours since I joined the club because many people didn't support us. Yeah. It was all to do with the frustrations, I think, of being this person who the weight of the world was on him. We all think it's his decision. He was kind of saying, it's not my call. Some of this stuff that you're blaming me for is not my call. Amarin is similar and I don't want to go over Carl's ground again. But, you know, that was around recruitment. Right. He's like, you're having a pop at me for, like, the construction of the team, you know, and my, you know, my intransigence. I didn't lie to them on the way in. I told them I was going to play like this. I've asked for players to play my system. They've given me some, but not everybody I wanted because there's a bigger, more longer term, more medium term picture that I'm having to work with now. You could say, yeah, well, you be flexible. But like I said, his point was, I don't want to be flexible. And I didn't fib to them on the way in. They gave me this job knowing that this is the style I want to play. He kind of talked himself out of the job, didn't he? But again, that was a. You think I am Sir Alex Ferguson in that I am running the recruitment. I am running the medical department. Cool. I'm looking at the academy. I'm working out who to give plain sign to. I'm working out who should train with the first team. I'm doing the lot. I'm doing logistics, I'm working out. When we travel to places, I'm working out, do we. Do I release three or four players to that photo? Shoot. No. So much of what is happening at football clubs, managers are being overruled all the time. And this has happened kind of gradually. You know, we still sort of think, oh, this guy's Bill Shankly, isn't he? This guy's, this guy's Samat Busby. You know, he is the most important. He is the mister, which is what the Italians call them, you know, that English model of the boss. We haven't got any of those anymore. Okay, Pep, maybe Michele Arteta. But they are, they are, they're working with instructors as well. They just, at the moment their star is now.

[Carl Anker]

Arteta's a really interesting example. Arteta's a very interesting example because he was initially given the job title of head coach in 2019 and then he eventually got given the job title of manager. This is a point I remember a lot because Reuben Amrom was asked about this in day one, sort of him. He didn't even have an unveiling. Unite were very, they didn't want to have a proper. This is Ruben Am unveiling. So he just had a pre match press conference before his first match against Ipswich and he was asked your job title was head coach. In most of United's history, it's always been manager as a job title. Do you mind being head coach? And he thought, oh well, you know, it's a job title. I'm, I might have the same recruitment a bit, but it's been explained to me and you know, the, the back of my head's flaring out going, you want to be a manager eventually you want to do the Arteta thing where you have some success and then go, give me more power. And I think this is a big tension we are seeing in Premier league clubs, particularly at the top end of individuals going in, going, okay, I'll be your head coach, we'll do it your way for a bit. But when we have some success, like everyone does in every single job, you go in for your performance review and you go, well, I'll fit all your key metrics. I want more money and I want more whatever. And what we're seeing now in two or three clubs is they're going, no, no, no, no, no. We're still a huge multi billion corporation right now. You need to stick to the plan. Maybe we'll give you more money. And I think for Enzo Maresca and for Ruben Amren in particular, there was some tension there that didn't work. But we have seen again, Matt's completely right. There are incredibly rare circumstances in the Premier League. And we have to be Premier League specific here, where clubs go. You know what, Fine. So Arteta definitely has more say so in recruitment now compared to where he did in 2020. Definitely felt that towards the end of Jurgen Klopp's time in Liverpool, he had more say in recruitment. And Liverpool fans, you can sound off if that was a good idea. I look over at Aston Villa now. Aston Villa works to Unai Emery's drumbeat and he has earned that.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Is it dangerous, though, Carl, to give so much power? Because as we've seen with Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp, some might say, on a slot, inherited his squad, right? So now they're having to rebuild again. You know, Unai Emery, the ownership group have invested in teams from his childhood, you know, like, so entrenched in a club that actually, if and when they do leave, then that same club is in a massive void and they yet again have to rebuild again.

[Carl Anker]

Yes, but change is inevitable, right? You will always have to rebuild when any individual leaves. I do not believe this is Pep Guardio's finest season. I am going to be fascinated how Manchester City go about recruiting Pep Guardo's successor and the successors in the other roles. Because when Pep arrived in Manchester, it was described as the Catalan Mafia, because they didn't just bring over Pep Guardiola, but in the lead up to bringing him over, two or three individuals came over from Barcelona. So when Pep got acquainted, he was working with people he already knew and working with people that already knew his strengths and his weaknesses, so they could cover up his weaknesses as well. I think something that it is interesting, Aston Villa is everything is working right now and synchronizing to how Unai Emery wants things, which is good for now because Unai Emery's very, very good at a number of things. Part of me also, sometimes Aston Villa makes decisions of going, oh, yeah, you've not got someone to tell Unai Emery no on certain things. And that will pop out in two or three times. We can talk about Monkey in a little bit because I'm sure his name's

[Ayo Akimolere]

about to pop up when we talk about sporting directors. Spot on. Spot on.

[Matt Slater]

So I'm just gonna. I'm just add a couple points to the manager's bit and I'm referred to two books, Soconomics.

[Carl Anker]

Is it your book?

[Matt Slater]

Okay, so this was the big.

[Carl Anker]

Oh, it's a fantastic book.

[Matt Slater]

So this was the. So this is the big seller, you know, 15 years or so when it came out, and it's been updated lots of times. And it has a whole section on, if you like this kind of Big man myth, where it points out one of its central strands for the entire book is it's your wage bills, the most important thing I your players, right to whether you win or lose in a given season. And there's a close, a pretty close correlation between wage bill and your finishing position in the table. And as a sort of corollary of that, it sort of points out that managers don't really move the needle that much. Most managers are groups around the middle. They might add a point, take away a point. You know, a good one might add a point, a bad one might take away a point. This came up again a few weeks ago in the. There was a quite good business conference, business conference in the Financial Times does. And one of the co authors of that book is Simon Cooper, one of their columnists. And he did some updated data on this with his partner, who he did the book with Stefan Shymansky, who's a British economist who basically works in the States these days. And they put on a big graph some of the most famous managers that we've had for the last 20, 30 years. And they looked at whether they added points or took points away. People wrote about it, go seek it out. But here's the headlines. Sir Alex Ferguson is an outlier all the way over there on his own, like plus eight points on his wage bill. I mean, he's so far away from the others. I keep thinking I need to go back and look at those wage bills to see if just the reporting of Man United's wage bills in the 90s was accurate because he is so far in advance. He's at plus eight. Pep Guardiola and Arteta right now at about plus four. Klopp's at about plus two, two and a half. Mourinho, he's like minus three, minus four. Now you think about some of those big wage bills he'd only take, you know, if they had the biggest wage bill in the Premier League and they came third or fourth or even at spurs, that sort of, you know, it would hurt his metric. So I just thought that was really interesting that someone who we would all agree is an amazing manager, the best, Pep Guardiola, he's only really kind of adding about four points over the course of a season relative to your wage bill. And I just thought that was really interesting. And then there's the other book I'd sort of throw in there, which I think kind of underpins. My point is the Great Man Theory. And it was shot down by Leo Tolstoy in War and Peace where he basically takes apart, he basically takes apart the idea that Napoleon was the most important person. It wasn't in that war, he wasn't the most important person. It was the winter, it was the foot soldiers, it was the food, it was their boots, it was all the other things. But because we are interested in big, interesting people, we gravitate towards the Napoleons of this world, the Sir Alex Fergusons of this world. And we think they are the most important person when things happen for other reasons that are really hard to identify.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Well, as we're talking literature, let's see what we can read in to the influence of sporting directors. Matt, one of your favorite subjects by sporting directors I'm talking Andrea Berta, Arsenal, Richard Hughes, Liverpool, Jason Wilcox, Manchester United. The list goes on. So when athletic astar writers with coming up with this list of the most important Premier League figures, not one of them named the sporting director. Considering the kind of money that's floating around football right now, the transfers going into clubs and recruitment, why do you think our journalists aren't thinking of the sporting director?

[Matt Slater]

Well, I'm, I'm going to give a short answer here and let, let Carl take this because I think Carl is probably closer to this than, than me.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Okay, okay.

[Matt Slater]

My, my take is that the theory of the sporting director is a good theory. This idea of someone more permanent, someone whose job it is to look beyond this season, someone whose job it is to think more strategically about how we bring people through from the under 13s through to the 17s through to the first team, you know, who isn't going to get sacked because of three, four bad results and who isn't going to throw in the 27 year old because I really need a point on Tuesday. The theory is good and someone who is going to be like more joined up with the, you know, the chief exec and the ownership about what we might do and we're going to buy this team over here. The theory is good. I think the reason that none of our experts who are closer to clubs and our beat reporters who are closer to clubs than I am would put forward any of the sporting directors that they know is because we haven't really done it well yet in the, in this country. It is something that we've, we've taken from, from, from Italy and Spain and what have you and maybe we just need to give it a bit longer. But I, I'm struggling to think of a sporting director, you know, maybe sort of like Edwards at Liverpool. You know there's, there's one or two where you sort of think yes, they, they. It was clearly working. That kind of relationship they had with the manager clearly worked. But has one really delivered to the point where I think they are the most important person at a British club, an English club? I don't think so. Not yet.

[Carl Anker]

I think Matt's right. I think we're in the teething process of sporting directors. There have been a number of people who've been hired to big glossy press releases and this is our sporting director and oh come on in local journalists. We're gonna offer this sporting director up and we're not gonna do it the old school way that Matt's just said. It's not just gonn do explain stuff. It's going to be the sporting director too. And then results it a skid. And then what you get very often is either tension between the manager and the sporting director or the person who hired the sporting director goes wait, this isn't sexy at all. Now a great example I can give you is Dan Ashworth, right? So Dan Ashworth is a heavily lauded individual behind England DNA and the sort of root and branch reform that happened to the English FA that that now has yielded great success on England's youth team. And depending on who you talk to around the English fa, some of the success around Gareth Southgate's time in terms of England national team, he goes to Newcastle. And again this is another thing about sporting directors. A lot of sporting directors and the story of sporting directors is very much on depending on who you talk to. Whereas with managers it can still very much be the eye test because you have a game every single week, you're talking to these people every single week. Whereas a sporting director. The way we view sporting directors more so in England I'd say compared to others is who did they bring in in terms of recruitment? Sporting directors are still very much seen primarily as the number one job is recruitment. In that now they're in charge of recruitment and the coach is the coach. Now I'm going to leave this to the Newcastle fans. Listening to this. There is heavy debate as to who Dan Ashworth brought in as when he was a Newcastle sporting director, who was a Eddie Howe signing and who was a Dan Ashworth signing. And you get this sort of tension and there's this sort of tension around Liverpool as well in that one of the stories put forward as to why Edwards was a good sporting director is this story about how Jurgen Klopp wanted union Brandt to come in and Edwards went, no, I'm not quite sure he's going to work. You know Brandt quite well from your time in the Bundesliga. But here's a short list of other players and one of these players is Mohamed Salah. That is a story that has fed into the, I don't want to say myth, but the tapestry of Edwards at Liverpool that he is the person who managed to bring Mo Salah into the Premier League. And I've now got another book to suggest to everyone, which is how to Win the Premier League by Ian Graham, which is a very interesting book on data and recruitment. And some of the arguments put forward by Ian Graham, Ian Graham, I should say, are really, really interesting. And they explain how it all the connective tissue between Jurgen Klopp, Graham Edwards and everyone else in there and it sounds phenomenal. I'd be really interested to read Jurgen Klopp's version of everything. So. But let me go back to Dan Ashworth. Dan Ashworth time at Newcastle, he's lauded as being one of the best sporting directors in the country. To which. So Jim Rackwood goes, I want a piece of that. Here you go, Newcastle. I want some money. Dan Ashworth spends five months on gardening leave at Newcastle, comes into Manchester United, gets one summer transfer window and five months afterwards he sacks. So Jim Ratcliffe is described, describes it as an error bringing him in and some of the work we've got on the headache about his leaving. One of the things that came up is Dan Ashworth first and foremost is a very methodical person and his strength is admin. He's really good at making sure everyone knows who to talk to. And everyone knows if you get stuck, you click on this thing and do this and do this and do this and do this. We know that there was apparently one meeting where he, Dan Ashworth was asked about data and the importance of data in a number of decisions. And apparently Dan Ashworth was more on the maybe, it depends. Rather than giving definitive answers, which you don't really give a maybe to a billionaire. Billionaires really like definitive answers in general, especially when they're going to spend money. And that didn't quite work. Dan Ashworth once described himself as the spoke in the wheel of how a football club should work. And that's a really, really noble goal. And I think loads of Premier League clubs want this sort of spoken the wheel, this one person who's in charge of and hires everything and make sure everything's in the right place. But the hit rate on it is just as high as the hit rate on getting a football manager and the hit rate on getting a good sporting director is really, really hard because it's not necessarily as transferable as the same way a good football manager is. A lot of it is your phone book. So we have seen historically a number of sporting directors have great success at a football club or in a league and then go somewhere else and it's not worked. And now I'm going to bring up Monkey again because Monkey is regarded as one of the best sporting directors in European football. He is regarded as one of the kings of recruitment. And the work he did with Sevilla in his first inn, especially a lot of Sevilla's triumphs, the three Europa leagues, one under Unai Emery, a lot of that goes down to him. And Monkey has some fantastic stories of how he managed to bring certain players into Seville. And he talks about spreadsheets and he talked about the data. He tells a great story about how he signed Ivan Rakitic that I've used several times on his podcast. Before now, he was a terrible sporting director at Roma. It just, it didn't work. It did not translate. He did not have the knowledge of Italian football in the same way he had the knowledge of Spanish football. He did not have the certain je ne sais quoi about understanding the strength and the way bottom half teams in Serie A sort of competed compared to bottom half teams in Spain. And therefore Roma spent a lot of money when they were trying to go for Champions League places and the Serie A title on players that just didn't work out. Then he spends goes back to Seville, da da da da da. Goes to Aston Villa. Has spent some time at Aston Villa. And again, Aston Villa fans, you're gonna have to tell me in the comment section, was that recruitment in the last couple years when he was there good enough? Because there's been some really, really quick turnover in some players. And you've seen, I mean, spurs fans can tell me about Perichi's role as sporting director in that Perichi Perricci knows Juventus and he knows Serie A. Comes over to Tottenham Hotspur and then all of a sudden Tottenham Hotspur buy two or three players from Juventus. Was that good? Was that not good? You have to tell that. So I think this is why it's really hard to know if what makes a good sporting director and indeed if someone who is a good sporting director can come over to your club and replicate that success. Because unfortunately, I think again, the Premier League now has so much money on it that one bad season can very often be you a manager, be you a football player, or be your sporting director. Can see you leave very, very quickly.

[Matt Slater]

Thy ticket lady Jennifer of Coolidge.

[Jennifer]

Well, many thanks good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getth with the times.

[Carl Anker]

With the times.

[Jennifer]

You're playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?

[Carl Anker]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast

[Ayo Akimolere]

with Ayo Akimolere and the place to end, gents. It would be the custodians of the club, the people whose job it is to spend money on players, on sporting directors or whatnot. How important is it to get this right? But also Matt, a custodian and an ownership that has a clear path for your club. And let's focus on the Premier League for now.

[Matt Slater]

Well, it's everything. I would sort of again, sort of split this a little bit. So I think at the end of the day, most of the time at most clubs, the most important person is the owner. And there are so many ways I think that we can sort of demonstrate that. The most obvious is that nearly all clubs certainly below the Premier League. I know you asked me specifically about the Premier League, but it's even in the Premier League. Now they're running at a loss, okay? They're loss making businesses. So the only way they keep going, they keep meeting their, you know, their bills, as the bills come in is because someone has put money in. So if that person stops because they get bored, they get divorced, they die, they get ill, their business, their other business falls apart, whatever, if that stops, the club's got an immediate short term problem, a cash flow issue and it's possibly got a medium longer term problem because I don't know, no one wants to buy this thing. Maybe there's loads of debt, maybe there's, maybe it's just been relegated. So just on that basis alone, who's paying the bills? Owners are really, really important and the bigger those bills are, the bigger the gap between how much you're bringing in and how much you're actually spending, the bigger the debt. Having someone who is willing to kind of take that on just makes them the most important person. And then you've got, you know, if you're, let's say a Villa or a Newcastle, one of those kind of aspirational clubs that's trying to jump up a station in life. Well again the heavy lifting has to be done by ownership, you know, be it by constantly sort of pushing as hard as you can on financial fair play rules so you can keep buying better players, going by a better manager, doing up the training ground, growing the size of the stadium, like huge capital expenditure issues. Again, it comes back to ownership. So that is kind of my default position on this, that you only have to look at like extreme examples. A chef for Wednesday, a derby, you know, where you have a sugar daddy and then you don't. All right, it was fine until it wasn't. And then you see pretty quickly what happens. The split I was going to make, I think there might be a couple of clubs where the owner's representative, the person who kind of makes the decisions on behalf of the owner. So really I'm talking about chief exec, you know, a sort of an executive type chairman who, who might be a minority owner, might not have any shares, you know, that type of person. So really I'm kind of talking about the kind of Daniel Levy type person who is clearly for a time the most important person at the club. They're making all the big calls, they are hiring the manager, they're very involved in recruitment. They are making really big decisions like do we stay here or do we move? Do I build a new ground or do I do up a stand stuff that really matters.

[Ayo Akimolere]

You know, Matt talks about it's a great idea till it actually happens. I'm thinking Manchester United, Glazers, and obviously Sir Jim Ratcliffe at the helm. I mean, look, the relationship between the Glazers and the fans isn't that great, but money has been spent on transfers, hasn't it?

[Carl Anker]

United are a really interesting case in that I was not the United reporter who wrote who was the most important person at United and I believe Mark Critchley answered Bruno Fernandes. I can absolute see why he said that in that I've now watched enough matches without Bruno Fernandes to go, oh, my goodness, I never want to be without him. If I also put on max spectacles right now. And I'd say in the short term, the most important person at Manchester United is Bruno Fernandes. Bruno Fernandes is probably the difference between United finishing Champions League or not Champions League. I think in the medium term, that person might be Jason Wilcox, who is the sporting director. So this is the person that eventually said, okay, Reuben Emmanuen, if you want to behave like that, you can leave. And he is now going to be the person who this summer has to decide how do we make sure Bruno Fernandes stays or goes, who is going to be the person who replaces Casemiro, who is also going to be the person who's to be the permanent football manager of Manchester United. And then again, to use Matt's term in terms of the long term, which is the, let's say, decisions that will probably only really have ramifications until in 2030, that person might be Sigin Raquel, in that he will probably end up having decisions on what stadium is Manchester United going to be playing in and where will that stadium be and who do we need to talk to and spend money in certain areas to get that done. So I know we very often use the word philosophy when we talk about football now. The brilliant Alex Stewart, who used to work at the Athletic Retifo, said, sometimes you need to think about it not in terms of philosophy, but in terms of tactics, strategy and logistics. So how are you going to win on a week to week basis? How are you going to win on a month to month or year to year basis? And how are you going to deliver those people and players so you can get those things done? So I think tactics is Bruno Fernandes, strategies Wilcox and logistics. It's Sir Jim Ratcliffe or indeed the person Sir Jim Deigns to put in charge of that for now. And it's different for everyone else right now, it's a fascinating time to be in the Premier League in that I'm sure so many clubs want to do this sporting director model, but if a manager came along that was good enough and they genuinely believe was good enough, I'm sure they would just hand them more and more and more power until they become their version of an old school British manager. I think there was definitely a point where Mauricio Pochettino was a head coach at Tottenham Hotspur, but then as they got more successful, you could almost feel sort of he's accruing more power and he's becoming closer and closer to the old school manager. And then eventually when he left, it just left this whole that Daniel Levy tried many different ways to fit until you eventually end up in this sort of Bring him back.

[Ayo Akimolere]

Yeah, bring him back. All right, let's leave it there. Honestly, the ownership one definitely is a good time to end this and also tune in next time for the Matt Slater Carl Anchor Football Book Club. If you want any more book recommendations, let's leave you there, gents. Carl, Matt, appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you on the next one.

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