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- [00:01]
Ayo Akimolere
It's time for basketball and Uber Eats is dropping deals on game day favorites to keep you locked in on the action.
- [00:07]
Nick Miller
Like when you're craving a buzzer beater.
- [00:09]
Ayo Akimolere
But also Buffalo Wings or when an upset makes you want to ugly cry into a pizza. And right now, Uber Eats has game.
- [00:16]
Paul Taylor
Day deals from Burger King, Buffalo Wild.
- [00:18]
Ayo Akimolere
Wings, KFC and hundreds more local favorites so you can keep your eyes on the ball and your hands on a burger. Order now only on Uber Eats. Product availability varies by region.
- [00:29]
Paul Taylor
See app for details.
- [00:30]
Ayo Akimolere
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are.
- [00:36]
Nick Miller
The words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to.
- [00:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is.
- [00:59]
Paul Taylor
There I play wordle and Spelling Bee every single day. That's the first thing I do. Play wordle While making coffee, I pour myself a cup and do the crossword.
- [01:07]
Nick Miller
Which is the jewel of my morning.
- [01:09]
Paul Taylor
What's our starting word today?
- [01:10]
Ayo Akimolere
I think it should be ocean.
- [01:12]
Nick Miller
I have seen you do spelling bee during meetings.
- [01:15]
Paul Taylor
The New York Times crossword is a.
- [01:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Moment of Zen that cleanses my brain.
- [01:19]
Paul Taylor
I wish the days were shorter and.
- [01:20]
Ayo Akimolere
That the wordles were longer.
- [01:22]
Nick Miller
Join us and play all New York.
- [01:23]
Paul Taylor
Times games at NY Times. Subscribe by March 16th to get a special offer. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:40]
Nick Miller
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. It's clear that Nottingham Forest are the real deal this season trying to open.
- [01:50]
Ayo Akimolere
City up and he wrote himself and.
- [01:54]
Paul Taylor
Scores the Forest fans the city.
- [01:59]
Nick Miller
So can they hold on and qualify for the Champions League next season? And is their success down to the system or their raft of standout players? All right with us today we have the Athletics Nick Miller and our Forest writer Paul Taylor who were both at the City ground at the weekend. Now gents, talk to me. This season Forest have beaten Liverpool. Only team still to beat Liverpool this season at Anfield and Manchester United, Tottenham and even put seven past Brighton Titan. Was Saturday's result the pick of the bunch do you reckon? Let's start with you Nick.
- [02:35]
Paul Taylor
I still think that first maybe this is the age that I am but I still think being Liverpool away was the pick of them given that Forest haven't done that for. For so long. But yeah, Saturday was, was extraordinary and it kind of coming at a. At a point where the performances had not quite tailed off, but there were sort of slight worrying signs and just I think it was not just beating Man City. Man City had a lot of possession, as they always do, but it was. They felt like Forest were in control of it as well, which is something that you didn't. Didn't think was possible at the start of the season. But yeah, in, in terms of where all these results lie being Liverpool aways, even though I, I was there on Saturday but wasn't there at Liverpool, it's going to take some bean.
- [03:24]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I agree with Nick and Anfield just felt like a, a line in the sand that was beyond this season. It was a historic win. It was something that they've been for, for, for a very long time. And this, this season has been one that's full of landmarks and full of little moments that make you think Forest are definitely on a upward trajectory. And, and the Man City win was definitely one of those. It. It just underlined everything that was so very Foresty about the identity that, that Nuno was given them. That it epitomized everything that's made them good this season. So in that sense the beating Man City was another landmark in that it just underlined how good Forest now are at what they do.
- [04:06]
Nick Miller
Yeah. This brings me on to my next point really because you know, Forest hadn't won in the Premier league since the 7 nil win against Brighton as a massive win. But you know, we'd all been talking about perhaps we're going to start seeing a bit of a drop off and we sort of saw that in many respects. Like, did it also show basically how resilient this team is in the race for Champions League football? In many respects, yeah.
- [04:28]
Ayo Akimolere
I think on a very basic level there was just a mathematical point to it all in the sense that Forest could have ended the day in fifth and on a. On a pretty much a bit of a low following the results that had gone before. It would have underlined the sense that there was a bit of a blip happening. Now what they did instead was, was go out and beat one of their main rivals for Champions League qualification and do it in a way that reminded people of what has made Forest a success. It kind of. If there had been any doubts about whether their formula was sustainable or about whether their formula was starting to stutter and they needed to find a new way of doing things, I think it just emphasized the point that even against a kind of semi resurgent Manchester City side, it could still work and it could still, it can still be an effective way for Forest to get through these last 10 games and hopefully get them to where they, they want to be.
- [05:23]
Nick Miller
Yeah, that's really interesting. Now I want to talk to you guys about the standout players. Look, Forest have had a few this season and I think you need those kind of performances from certain players to really be where they are this season in, in the league. But I'm just going to start and say Marillo, for me, he's just been an absolute godsend, absolute stunning player. And not just that, the, the amount of money they picked him up for and what he's probably worth now is really, really good business. So Nick, give me two, two all three for you. That really blow your mind. And Chris Wood as well actually, I must add to that.
- [05:54]
Paul Taylor
All right, you're taking all the players now. I think we could. The. You could go through the whole team and you know, Matt Sells has been amazing in goal. Oh, I know. Was incredible. He said he's had a few if he performs recently because incredible the weekend. Milenkovic, amazing center partner for Murillo at the back. Nico Williams isn't the left back but he's been brilliant at left back for most of the season. I think you, there is a danger of slightly overthinking it though. Best player not just in this team, but one of the, maybe the best player, the most naturally talented player anyway that I've seen play for Forest in my lifetime is Morgan Gibbs White. And you know, again, he was unbelievable at the weekend. And the thing about Gibbs White is that I think most of us thought that when he signed we would be getting a kind of a creative number 10 who you know, would play on the wing sometimes and would do the sort of things that creative number tens do. But he's a kind of complete midfielder as well as that. Like at the weekend he played basically in the middle of a 4, 4, 2 and he was better than any of Manchester City's midfielders. He's. There are moments when he's slightly frustrating when he, he ignore. He chooses not to play. Like a simple pass, he tried, he tries something sort of eye catching and extraordinary about sort of 60, 70% of the time. But a lot of the times that come, it comes off. So you know, he's just an absolute pleasure to watch and we will kind of enjoy him while he's still there. But yeah, there have been loads of. I mean the whole first Team basically has been brilliant this season. But Gibbs White is an unbelievable player.
- [07:36]
Ayo Akimolere
I could only join the love letter to Morgan, I'm afraid. I think his numbers are only like five goals and six assists. But he, which is pretty good numbers to be fair. But he's so much more than that. He's just somebody who can, he can drive the team forward. The way he carries the ball 20 or 30 yards in, in a heartbeat or the way he like the pass he played for Callum Hudson. Adoy for the goal.
- [07:59]
Nick Miller
Yeah, for the goal.
- [08:00]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah.
- [08:01]
Nick Miller
Stunning, wasn't it?
- [08:01]
Paul Taylor
Yeah.
- [08:02]
Ayo Akimolere
He makes it look easy. And you know when you see it again and you watch it and I have watched it a few times because it's a beautiful thing to watch. It's just outstanding to, to see the pass and to play the pass and it goes right to his feet and it, it, it, it doesn't just loop in a gentle arc. He somehow manages to play a long pass with a bit of pace on it. So he gets the ball quickly and it, that, that's what he's capable of. He's capable of opening teams up in a variety of different ways and he's quite a, a charismatic character as well. He's not your typical pounding on your chest, screaming at players kind of leader but he, he does kind of epitomize everything that's good about this Forest side. He's, he's a great, wonderful player to watch. I'd also echo Nick's comments on, on Milankovic out has made Murillo an even better player. The two of them just have attributes that meld so well together and make them a perfect, a perfect pairing. Milenkovic, he can pass, he's confident on the ball but more than that, he's just an old fashioned defender. He, he wins headers. He. I wouldn't fancy playing against him as a striker because he's such a imposing figure. And the other one I'd mentioned is Elliot Anderson. You know, I think Newcastle knew they'd got a special player on their hands and they didn't really want to sell him. I mean we can have a whole conversation about PSR and the main or otherwise of that, but the fact that Forest were able to benefit from that and you know, let's be frank, get Odie Black Ademos out the door for a vast amount of money is probably one of the best deals they've ever done without exaggeration to get Elliot Anderson for the money they did and get Black Adimos out the door and solve their PSR. Issues at the same time was. Was an outstanding piece of business and now they've got a player who's, you know, not only one of the best players in the Forest ranks but might well be on the verge of England reckoning. So you know what a deal that was.
- [09:56]
Nick Miller
Well, that's a good question actually to sort of go into really is the, the England conversation and which, which players in this team, you know, Nick, do you think could be called up for the England squad? I mean Hudson and Doy for me has been really, really fascinating. A player that we saw as a bit part player at Chelsea. We. I mean I don't think his ability has ever been in question but I don. A bit more finesse to him here at Forest at the moment. Maybe that's down to Nuno, maybe that's down to the environment. But surely he's got to be in for a shout.
- [10:22]
Paul Taylor
Yeah, you think so? I mean you kind of wonder whether. I'm not really sure what. Whether his previous relationship with Thomas Tuchel will be a good or a bad thing for him really. But you know, if you're going purely on performances, he's, you know, him and Anthony Lange kind of kind of they can come in and out of games and they can have quiet games but they're wingers. That's you know, that's what. What happens. But yeah, he's, he's been brilliant on, on either flank as well. Which I think is kind of last season his sort of signature move was. And I mean signature move is one of kind of the only way he scored goals really was cutting in from the left hand side and sort of curling one to the far corner. It was like a sort of mirrored iron Robin thing. But this season he's been playing on the right a little bit more. He scored the goal on. On Saturday from the, from the right hand side. So he's. He's pretty adaptable as well. But y. I mean I. As Paul said, I think Elliot Anderson will consider himself pretty unlucky if he doesn't get an England call up at some point in the next few months. He's been unbelievable. He's one of the kind of. You know, it's him and someone else in midfield for Forest. And there's another one that when he signed I think we Forest we kind of thought well what are we signing here is because he's played a lot out on the wing for Newcastle is. Have we kind of bought just sort of a depth option on the wing? Is this kind of. Is he going to play number 10. Is this going to. What does this mean? Are we selling Gibbs White? But he's turned into one of the best kind of number eights in, in the division, which is, you know, maybe you didn't see coming but is just, just exceptional.
- [12:04]
Ayo Akimolere
Forest did sign him to, to predominantly with the view of playing him on the left hand side and he did play there quite a lot in preseason. He played there and as a 10 and did very well. But I think, you know, it was probably the injuries to Danilo and Ibrahim Sangare that gave him an opportunity in midfield and now they're both back fit and because of his form they're, they're kind of among a crop of players fighting for, for one place alongside him. Anderson's been absolutely brilliant. I think he is the most likely along with Morgan to get a, a call up. Whether it happens this time, I think he should. Whether it'll happen, I don't know because there's a lot of, a lot of competition in that area. But you know, Callum, Callum Hudson Adoy. I think I'm right in saying Tuchel is the one that let him go out on loan at Chelsea. So I'm not sure that he at that point was particularly high on his, his list of, of players that he liked. But things change, don't they? He might be looking at him now and thinking what a great job he's doing for Forest, so who knows. But I think there might be. I'm not sure that historic relationship might on this occasion help him greatly but, but, but we'll see. Isn't it great though for Forest fans to be able to have this conversation about which of their players could be in the England reckoning. It's been so long since that was even a conversation. It's incredible and it's just a sign of the, the journey they've been on in the last few seasons.
- [13:26]
Nick Miller
Yeah, I'm just thinking about the business Forest have done actually and you mentioned Sangare, that he's barely played actually and actually top, top player on his day. Who do you think represents the most value in terms of how much they bought them for and how much they potentially could sell them for? And like, you know, when teams do well and you see players operate at the top level, you do know those data analysts are looking at it going, well, maybe we could squeeze them in at Arsenal, maybe could squeeze them in here or there. I mean who are you most afraid might leave? And who do you think has posed the best value?
- [13:58]
Paul Taylor
Nick, who I'm afraid will leave is the kind of easy question it is Gibbs White, they will have some kind of plan. I think one plan might be to just move Anderson forward if Gibbs White does go. But you're not going to replace him, really. There's no one around that will, you know, feasibly come to Forest. I don't think that will kind of compare to him in terms of value. I mean that. The, the right side on Saturday was Callum Hudson Odoy and Ola Aina, which cost. And they cost about 3,3 million quid between them. Aina was, Aina was this kind of free signing as a bit of an afterthought. There was a. In, in the first sort of 18 months. Forest seemed to be addicted, signing right backs and it was just like, well, okay, well you. Another one. Do you need to. Do you really need this guy? And he, you know, at the time it looked like he was behind Nico Williams and I think they had signed Gonzalo Montiel after that. But Sergio Orio was there and done really well. Yeah, exactly those days.
- [14:57]
Nick Miller
Yeah. Goodness.
- [14:58]
Paul Taylor
Yeah. But, but, but Aino has just been, has just been exceptional and he plays. I think he played a fair bit on the left hand side last season, but he's been first choice at right this season and as a, as a free signing he's just been incredible. I mean the whole back four really at the moment, Nico Williams cost about 16, 17 million quid, something like that, but Milenkovic was about 12 million and I assume whoever only asked for 12 million quid for him at the Fiorentina has been fired by now because that was just, I mean, it's just a ludicrous amount of money. Marillo was a little bit less than that.
- [15:35]
Nick Miller
I think it's like 11 million from. Yeah, Brazil.
- [15:36]
Paul Taylor
Yes. So you've. And then Matt Sells wasn't particularly expensive either. So they've put a back four together for what, about 30 million quid, something like that? Maybe a bit. 35, 40 million quid, which is, I mean, you know, that is absolutely nothing for that amount of players in today's market. So yeah, in terms of value, I think Olorina and Hudson Odoi have just been, just been incredible.
- [16:04]
Nick Miller
Yeah. Murillo is interesting, isn't he, Paul? In terms of picking him up for next to nothing, but also a player that barely played much football. I mean that's a massive gamble, but it's a gamble that's looked like it's paid off.
- [16:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. In all seriousness, he, he could end up being one of the world's most expensive defenders. I don't think it's an exaggeration to put him in that bracket. They could sell him for 70, 80, maybe even more million pounds. Who knows what the market's at at this point. But he is everything he is. He's a central defender that you get excited to watch. And how many, how many central defenders can you say that about? When he's on the team sheet, you think, great, I'm gonna see Murillo today because he always does something, whether it's a little pirouette of a turn on it, a 40 yard shot, a goal line clearance. He's an exciting player. And he's also, amid it all, a very, very good central defender. You watch his performances and even when sometimes he'll get. He'll find himself. I can't remember which game it was, but there was a game where he found himself one on one with an opposition striker. And it looked for a minute as though the striker was going to outpace him. And you just felt relaxed because you knew what he was going to do. And he made it look so easy. He just guided them out to the side of the pitch and the chance just went. And it was just because he kept his head. He knew not to dive in. He knew he'd got the pace and strength to see them out into a less dangerous. And that's what he brings. He's an exciting player that also happens to be a very, very good central defender. And I think Forest fans, and, you know, even the journalists covering the club should, should enjoy him while he's there because it's. He's a joy, he's brilliant, he's great. He's. He's a proper Brazilian.
- [17:46]
Nick Miller
He's a proper Brazilian. I don't know what an unpropper Brazilian is, but we'll take it. We'll take it. All right, let's move on. Next we'll discuss how this group of players at Forest works from a tactical standpoint.
- [18:03]
Ayo Akimolere
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamolere.
- [18:11]
Nick Miller
Okay, let's bring in Ahmed Walid, one of our tactics writers, but also one of the men with the greatest microphones in podcasting. Ahmed, so good to have you with us. Look how much of the story of the success of Forest this season has come down to their tactical approach under Nuno. I mean, really sturdy, a team that works really hard and a team that is actually very disciplined. How often now does Nuno's system rely on possession? But also, can you explain his tactical.
- [18:40]
Ahmed Walid
Outlook as well, yeah, like Forest have had the lowest possession in the Premier League this season. But the thing is there's a downward look towards team who defend. And I think that's wrong in football because actually defending is. Is really hard. And doing it masterfully, as Forest have done this season, is even harder. So it's fine that Forest are playing this way with only 40% possession, which is the lowest in the league. They are organized without the ball. They are winning the duels. They are hitting on the counter, sometimes playing long balls to Chris Wood and like seeking the second ball. But it's fine because it suits the profiles of the players. It suits Moreyou, it suits Milinkovic, it suits Aina, it suits Kalemots and Odoya and Ilanga on the counter. It suits Wood winning the aerial duels. So the most important thing a coach should do is actually playing a system or a style that suits the players. And the second thing is it's not only that. So force sometimes actually have the ball. They try to attack down the flanks through Kolamoto, Ndoya and Elanga, with Gibbs White trying to like attack the pockets and position himself between the lines.
- [19:51]
Nick Miller
Okay, interesting. Paul, you wrote a match piece aptly named be New Node. You know what Ahmed's just said. Does that lend to your explanation of being New Node and how he actually constructs his team and how they execute on the pitch?
- [20:04]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, absolutely. They are so finely honed at what they do. I think they take huge pride in the defensive strength that they've got. They give away very few chances at home, certainly. I think they've conceded 10 goals all season. Remarkable, given where they were. Matt sells has kept 12 clean sheets, which I think is the joint most of any club in the division. They just don't give away chances, they don't give away goals. Yes, there's a certain level not of negativity, but they do things defensively when they're out of possession. But that's fine. Why not? You're up against some of the best players in the world, and if you can find a way to keep them out and then still have this huge threat on the counter attack, then why not? Nuno was very interesting when at the start of the season, he talked about how he shaped a team and he didn't arrive with any preconceived ideas of how he wanted his Forest team to play. He looked at the resources he inherited at the players he's got and then came up with the best way of utilizing those. So in his mind, he's he's seen the players that he's got and come up with this counter attacking style that's worked brilliantly. It's not like he arrived with a managerial ethos that he's always had. I guess there is always going to be a certain level of similarity between this Forest team and the Wolves team he had, for example, it wasn't like he put the cart before the horse. He. He looked at what tools he'd got at his disposal and then came up with a plan afterwards and what, what a plan it is. I don't think there's many teams in the Premier League that utilize the resources they've got as efficiently and as effectively as Nottingham Forest do.
- [21:39]
Nick Miller
Yeah, Nick, I'm just thinking about his time at spurs, at Tottenham Hotspur, and you know, how a lot of those fans really wanted a different type of style, a bit more elegant, bit more attacking. Does that matter to Forest fans? Because I'm just thinking about, you know, Jose Mourinho's glory days at Chelsea, right. Sometimes that football wasn't great, but they got the results. And actually, even with Nuno here at Forest, you're still seeing, you know, matches like 7 nil against Brighton. Surely they're happy with what they're looking at as long as they're getting the results. As long as they potentially get Champions League football next season. Season.
- [22:13]
Paul Taylor
Yeah. Well, I think it was a, it was a concern when he was appointed. You know, anyone who's going to follow Steve Cooper was going to have a tricky job because he was, he was such a kind of hero with the fans. And there were a couple of what possibly slightly sexier names mentioned when, when Nuna was appointed. I think Oliver Glasner was mentioned and a couple of other people, but obviously it certainly doesn't matter now. And I think there was an idea that it's not possible to play kind of exciting football or football that people want to watch unless you are playing a certain way. And that thing, you know, Nuno obviously got tagged as being a kind of slightly dour manager from partly from his time at Spurs. But I mean, I can tell you from kind of personal experience, this Forest team are incredibly exciting to watch when they, when they play those kind of rapid counter attacks and you got, you know, Ilanga streaking down the right hand side and Gibbs White moving the ball quickly and playing those unbelievable passes. So it is the kind of perfect blend between the solid defense that Ahmed has just talked about and that kind of incredible, you know, attacking verve. If you like the Brighton game Was a. I don't know. It's obviously a bit of an anomaly because it was one of those things where, you know, forest had about 89 shots and seven went in. But it's that that kind of performance hasn't been unusual. It's not that there have been games where Forest have kind of scored one goal and they kind of dug in and it's maybe not been kind of particularly thrilling to watch, but there have also been games where they've played some sort of absolutely thrilling football. And you know, while as I said that there may have been a few doubts at the start, they've. They've certainly disappeared now.
- [23:54]
Nick Miller
Yeah, Ahmed against City, you highlighted for us his defensive organization and the role of players like Alanga and also Gibbs White in blocking passing lanes. Now this season, you've also written about the flexibility Nuno has tactically for his team to go from a defensive structure into a transitioning one on the counter.
- [24:12]
Ahmed Walid
Yeah, because the thing is, Forest aren't only defending in a 4, 2, 3, 1 with Gibbs wide behind. What all season they changed their approach without the ball, depending on the opposition as well. So we actually saw saw on Saturday they moved to a 4, 4, 2 without the ball with Elanga and Wood up front and Gibbs White in the middle with Nicholas Dominguez on the right. So the thing is, you had Nicholas Dominguez and Morgan, Gibbs White dropping like Dominguez to Press Vardiol and Gibbs White dropping to Mark Phil Foden. And the thing is, having El up front gave them like a better opportunity on the counter because instead of Elanga actually dropping next to Ola Aina and for example marking Duku, they had him all the way up front and actually doing as was playing on the right. And we've seen this changes throughout the season. Like for example, the most common tweak that Nunu does is when Forest are seeing out the lead, he brings on Moratu and actually moves to a back five. And another thing is that throughout this season, like before the Brentford game, I think it was in December, like Forest hadn't played an out and out back three from the start of the game. Except in the Carabao cup in the game against Newcastle, but in the Premier League, they hadn't played it before. From the beginning of the game they actually did. And I felt that they surprised Brentford and the overloads out wide from Nikki Williams and Aina helped them like, like take the lead. There are many more examples of this. For example the 7 will 7 nil win that Nick was talking about against Brighton. Like, lots of, lots of those goals are on the transition. But in the, in the beginning of the game, especially like the, the third goal, you can see that they were playing in a 3, 5, 2 on the ball, but actually Elanga was moving to the right side to overload that side with Gibbs, White and Olaena, and they caused problems to Mitoma and Tariq Lamptey. So all these, like, small changes give Forest an advantage on top of their organization.
- [26:11]
Nick Miller
Yeah, Paul, tactically astute, changing in particular for particular games. It sounds like, you know, Nuno has really thought about what he wants to implement at Forest, maybe some might say even learnt from previous mistakes. But I, I was looking at Opta. Opta did this really interesting set of graphics about the, the match at City against City and basically looked at how Forest soaked up the pressure in the first half and then went for it in the second half. That type of game, management and that type of discipline surely has to be attributed to why this team has done so well this season.
- [26:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, absolutely. And I did have a smile there when Ahmed mentioned Murato coming on, said that that has become a kind of symbol of the season in some ways. You know, when Forest are ahead and you see Morato warming up on the touchline, you kind of know which way the game's going. And again, he's. He's probably the one player in the Forest squad that. That can make Milankovic look a bit small. He's an absolute unit of a man. He did. He's really an imposing figure. And again, another one that they, they found from, you know, not obscurity, but another really good signing that you wonder why perhaps other Premier League clubs weren't looking at him either. But yeah, Forest's approach was probably symbolized by that, that game at Liverpool where they did openly set out their stall to, to keep things tight for 60, 70 minutes and then bring on Alanga and Hudson Odoi and, you know, attack a tiring Liverpool team. And it worked perfectly. And that's an example of Nuno's tactical astuteness. I think he, in press conferences, he's quite interested because if you ask him who he wants to sign in January or where he wants to strengthen, he'll bat it off. He doesn't have any interest in talking about that, but if you ask him about his tactical approach or why he wants to do this or that or the other, a particular nuance of his team, he will open up a little bit and he'll talk about it.
- [28:04]
Paul Taylor
He.
- [28:04]
Ayo Akimolere
He clearly has a great enthusiasm for the finer details of the game. And I think that shows in, in the way he does have all these. He always has a plan, always has a, a little something he's going to change for each particular game. It's never quite identical. There's always something that he's picked up that he thinks he can exploit in the opposition side and that, that, that without a doubt has been, has been one of Forest strengths this season. His, his adeptness and intelligence of just finding something that he can exploit to Forest advantage.
- [28:36]
Nick Miller
Before you go, Ahmed, I just want to talk about long term success for Forest because, you know, Forest's ability to capitalize on high press turnovers and their improved set piece performance have been notable improvements this season. Is that key to where you see Forest going if they're going to, to compete at the highest level is to manage all that?
- [28:55]
Ahmed Walid
Yeah. And I think a more important point is actually to have the profiles of the players that are good at this. So obviously last season Forest were shambles from set pieces offensively and defensively. Like defensively, they had the most conceded goals from set pieces in the league with 23 goals. And even when you factor in equal opportunity by dividing the number of goals with the number of sets set pieces they conceded, they were still the worst in the league. Now their offensive and defensive numbers in terms of goals per 100 set pieces have improved and also in the underlying numbers as well in terms of like expected goals per 100 set pieces. So when you look at this season, they have the six best goals per hundred set pieces in the league and the fourth best XG per hundred set pieces though. So this is offensively and defensively, they have the seventh lowest goals conceded per hundred set pieces and the lowest XG conceded 100 set piece in the whole league. And a big part of this is the players because they brought Milinkovic, who's really good in the aerial duels. And actually in addition to Gibbs White's delivery, also Elliot Anderson's delivery has been really good from set pieces. But it's not only the players, it's also having better organization, better routines, marking the opponents better, knowing what the opponents want to do. So it's important how, how they're going to keep the players or replace them. Because as like Nick and Paul were speaking earlier, if Gibbs White, for example, leaves, and that's the biggest fear, how can you replace him with someone who has the same delivery at set pieces and someone who's really good on attacking transitions, not only in terms of Finding the pass, but actually carrying the ball and dribbling with it forward. Same goes to Elanga and Hudson Odoi, for example.
- [30:41]
Nick Miller
Okay, fantastic. Ahmed, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. And next time you come, I want some strobe lights in the background just to aid that microphone in the foreground. Maybe some trance music as well, just to keep the vibes going. You're a legend. Thanks for joining us.
- [30:54]
Ahmed Walid
Thanks, guys.
- [30:55]
Nick Miller
Right, coming up, we look ahead to the rest of this season and what could still be in store for Nightcan Forest.
- [31:11]
Paul Taylor
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamalera.
- [31:17]
Nick Miller
Well, Nick, no one can question how good Forest have been this season, but, you know, with 10 games left, what. What kind of challenges do you think this team could face in terms of trying to maintain that Champions League qualification?
- [31:30]
Paul Taylor
Well, I mean, there's a few tricky fixtures left. Got Villa in a couple of weeks and I suppose one thing could be juggling the FA cup with that. It's got Brighton away in the. In the quarterfinals and then quite a rapid turnaround to Manchester United at home a few days later. So, so there's that one thing could be. There's. There's been. It's quite difficult to pick out weaknesses in Forest this season, but one thing has been There seems to. There's definitely a plan for when they take the lead. Not quite so much of an effective plan for bringing things back when they go behind. I think they've only won one game after going behind. I think it was Aston Villa at home just before Christmas. So there are things like that and you know, there's obviously injuries that could occur between now and the end of the season. Chris Wood gets injured then could be problems. Tyro Oneyou, bless him, hasn't been the player he was in the first and you know, he hasn't had the chances. So you have some sympathy with him. All that said, I've kind of gone. I'm. I'm all in now. I'm a, kind of. There's no, in my mind, there's absolutely no way that Forest aren't going to get qualified for the Champions League, which is, you know, clearly an absurd state of affairs, A, considering the expectations of the start of season and B, my, my own mental well being, I should be.
- [32:58]
Ayo Akimolere
I should be.
- [32:59]
Paul Taylor
What's. I'm just setting myself up for disappointment here. What's wrong with me? But yeah, I mean, you know, there will be various numbers spat out by supercomputers everywhere about Forest's, you know, predicted percentage to get into the Champions league, but it's 100 as far as I'm concerned at the moment.
- [33:15]
Nick Miller
Yeah. I mean, Optus supercomputer is saying 76.2%. Those are good odds, mate. Come on, come on. Hold on to it, Nick. Hold on to the dream. But, Paul, you've been covering the club since they're in League one, and I wonder where you saw that transition from, I guess, when Marinakis took over to where they are now. Did you get a sense, sense of that journey, that actually this is exactly where he wants to be as an owner of a club like this and actually this is the level of ambition that he wanted to execute.
- [33:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I don't mean in any way to diminish any achievement that Forest have had at all, but I think the defining moment of their turnaround was when they appointed Steve Cooper. At that point, they were. They were fighting a battle against relegation and he was absolutely the. The right man at exactly the right time. He took a team that was devoid of confidence, that didn't have a plan, that didn't have an identity that. That. That looked bound for League One and turned them into a group of players that had belief, that had unity, that had togetherness. All core values that Nuno relies on as well, and has done well to keep going and to enhance even. But. But Steve Cooper was the man. Steve Cooper was the. The. The guy that. That turned it around. And I remember after promotion, after the playoff final, there was a big celebration at the council house in Nottingham in the Market Square, and Evangelos Marinakis gave a short speech in which he said, I want this team to be in Europe. And I think there was a certain amount of not sniggering, but I think people thought it would have been overly ambitious at that point for him to. To be talking in those terms. But do you know what? Here we are.
- [34:54]
Paul Taylor
We respect our history, but now it's the time to write a new history, be even brighter. Of course, all depends on you to show your fantastic support for the years to come, to be next to the team. And I promise you, you will see a lot of victories and trophies to come. All the very.
- [35:25]
Ayo Akimolere
That first season after promotion, when they made those 29 signings in the space of two transfer windows, they. The Forest were derided, they were mocked a little bit, but it was absolutely needed because they'd built a team on the back of a large group of loan signings and frankly, a few players who were very good in the championship, but perhaps not good enough for the Premier League. So they needed to almost completely rebuild everything and they did that. And the manner in which they did that and still stayed up was nothing short of remarkable. I think he deserves credit and praise, Evangelos Marinakis, for the, for the work he did on that front and in, in the long term that, that business that they did at that point, whilst it did look a little bit scattergun, actually proved to be very good and various youth and was the, the second key moment, if you like, in, in Forest staying in the Premier League.
- [36:14]
Nick Miller
I wonder, and I know it's a, it's, it's a, it's. It's a good problem to have. I wonder if Forest are ready for this.
- [36:18]
Ayo Akimolere
The.
- [36:19]
Nick Miller
For the Champions League though. I mean we've seen it. Aston Villa struggled this season and they've, they've bolstered their acts. Newcastle obviously, we, we've seen it hurt them as well. I mean, what's to stop Forest making those mistakes, Paul, in that respect, you know, obviously we don't know how Edu's appointment's going to affect things moving forward, but do we feel Forest are ready for this? Do we think they've looked back at the. The likes of Villa and Newcastle and thought actually we need to protect ourselves moving forward?
- [36:44]
Ayo Akimolere
I think Forest in the last few windows have done some very astute business and I think they're going to have to be extraordinarily clever again this summer. I think what isn't clear is obviously getting into the Champions League, if please they do manage to do it does bring a large amount of financial benefits to it. It will change the ballpark again on some level in terms of the finances of the club. But what we don't know is are they going to be in the same situation as. As Newcastle, as Aston Villa who did have to still make fairly big, fairly big sales just to keep the PSR kind of demons from the door. So a Forest is going to be in the same situation. Could they get away with selling an Elanga instead of a Gibbs White or a Murillo or will they have to sell a Gibbs Wire or a Murillo that there's going to have to be some good wheeling and dealing done to improve the squad with the three, four, five signings that they probably need to strengthen them ready for the Champions League? They're going to need to strengthen. But how do they do that? Do they do that by selling and sacrificing one key player or do they manage to plot a way through it by. By selling one of the. Not one of the lesser stars. I don't want to insult anybody by saying that, but selling somebody that isn't Marilla or Gibbs, why you understand it, it's going to be an interesting summer. But I think given you've got to give Forest some credit for the work they've done in the last few windows and give them the benefit of the doubt that they're going to be armed with a very good plan to get them through this coming summer as well and get themselves ready for the next round of challenges ahead.
- [38:22]
Nick Miller
Yeah, Nick, it is a blessing that, you know, regardless of whether or not a team or teams do come knocking for some of Forest best players is that they're in a really decent bargaining position. I mean, how many of those players who have followed this team to this point wouldn't want to be playing in the Champions League next season? I mean, it's not as if many of these players might want to leave because this is the first time in a long time Forest are back in the big time.
- [38:45]
Paul Taylor
I suppose that there might be some players who could, if they're particularly kind of career minded, maybe they will think that they can parlay this into kind of a move to, you know, a club that are playing the Champions League every season, for example. And there will be that. There presumably will be a point where someone will come along with an amount of money that makes it impossible for us to turn down a bid for, you know, a Merlot or Gibbs White or whoever it is. But yeah, I mean the prospect of playing in the Champions League with Forest is, you know, it might be that if Forest had finished ninth or whatever this season and not got into Europe, then some of those players might have thought, well great. This is, I've done really well this season, I'm going to get my big move. But being in the Champions League league just with Forest might just persuade them to stay on for, for an extra season. So if they could do that, then that'll be excellent.
- [39:38]
Nick Miller
Okay, before we leave, I just want to put you in a little quandary, the two of you. Obviously the FA cup is still on the card. Something that Brian Clough couldn't deliver. Do Forest take FA cup glory or Champions League qualification? What we saying Paul?
- [39:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Me personally, I go for the, I go for the FA cup because I'm, I'm kind of old school and I think know it's been so long since they last won it that I think it just be something that fans would always remember. Brian Clough never managed to do it and he, he won just about everything else going, including those famous European Cups. I, I think if they win the FA cup, the other thing is that it also gets Forest into the Europa League as well. So there'd still be a European adventure of sorts. And, and you'd get this historic day at Wembley where you would, at the end of the day end up with, you know, Morgan Gibbs White, probably maybe Ryan Yates lifting a trophy. And that for years for Forest has seemed like something that's improbable. I don't think there's been many seasons in recent years where Forest fans start the season thinking we could win a trophy. And that's the reality here. They could. I'm not saying it's going to be easy or I'm not taking it for granted, but they have a chance of winning a trophy and I don't think that should be overlooked. You know, in, in 20 years time, they'd look back on an FA cup win more fondly than they would on qualifying for the Champions League. Because, you know, let's be honest, I know people will point to Cluffy's success back in the day and say, don't rule anything out. Don't. You know, we had the miracle man once before. Who knows what would happen if Fries go into the Champions League. But the reality is, I think they are a little way off being able to repeat those. So, you know, winning the FA cup, it's got to be that for me, I mean, you know, let's. How are we even having this conversation? It's incredible. But, you know, if you give me the choice, one or the other, it would definitely be the FA Cup.
- [41:32]
Nick Miller
Nick, you. I. I know you. Unrealistic fan. You want both, don't you?
- [41:36]
Ayo Akimolere
You.
- [41:36]
Nick Miller
You think Forest can do it all?
- [41:38]
Paul Taylor
Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, as we've established as we started, forest are already 100 in the Champions League. So it's just a question of whether I won the FA cup as well.
- [41:48]
Nick Miller
I mean, what a lovely bonus, eh?
- [41:51]
Paul Taylor
Yes, I will take them both, please. Thank you.
- [41:54]
Nick Miller
Honestly, gents, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Paul, Nick and also Ahmed. Thanks for now. We're back soon.
- [42:01]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC podcast network.