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- [00:00]
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- [01:54]
Matt Davis Adams
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Matt Davis Adams. We're into the final international break before this summer's World Cup. Harry Maguire and Cobby Mainoo are back in the England squad whilst Trent Alexander Arnold was left out by Thomas Tuchel. So who should be on the plane come June? Right, with us for this one we've got Stu James. How you doing Stu?
- [02:21]
Stu James
Very well, thank you Matt. Good morning to you.
- [02:22]
Matt Davis Adams
Yeah, and Jack Pitt Brooks on board with us too. Jack, you okay?
- [02:25]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Hi Matt. Yeah, I'm good, thanks.
- [02:27]
Matt Davis Adams
Good stuff. Right then. Thomas Tuchel named a 35 man squad ahead of England's friendlies against Uruguay and Japan, including five goalkeepers, thus wisely fending off a Couple of days of four goalkeepers, Thomas.
- [02:39]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Four.
- [02:40]
Matt Davis Adams
That's insane memes, Jack. This is a bigger squad than the 26 players he can take to the World Cup. How much impact are these friendlies going to have on who makes the final cut, do you think?
- [02:50]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, quite a lot of impact. It's really interesting, I think, how he's done it. So basically he's split the squad into two sections. The first section is 26 players and I guess we can probably call that Possibles. These are fringe players who are not definite to go to the World cup and they're the ones who are competing to play in. They're the ones who've been training at St. George's this week and they're competing to play against Uruguay tonight. Tomorrow morning, 11 other players who I guess we can call probables will join up with the squad. Those are the guys like, you know, Rice, Kane, Saka and so on. When they join the squad that means that I guess 10 or so players from the Possibles will drop out and they'll again go back to the 26 man squad which will compete for the Japan game on Tuesday. So it's a way to make sure that he can see as many players as possible while also giving the possible players a bit more space to show what they can do without having the obvious top players, kane, rice, saka, etc breathing down their necks. So I think he'll learn a lot from training over the course of this week and next week and obviously he'll learn a lot from the Uruguay game tonight and the Japan game on Tuesday.
- [03:57]
Matt Davis Adams
So therefore then Stu, is this more about auditioning and in Tuchel's case, running the rule over some of these players whose places aren't nailed down than it is actually preparing for the tournament?
- [04:07]
Stu James
Absolutely. I think there's a really strong element of auditioning here, especially in the time that the squad is together up to and including the Uruguay game. I mean Tuchel's quotes last week, but one of them here we bring players in that we haven't seen who haven't played so much to open up the picture and the competition for plane tickets to the U.S. it's the last opportunity to impress. So I think that's pretty clear. There's a group of players who as I see it, are effectively on trial and I think that takes in, as Jack just mentioned then how they train, obviously how they play, that's the most significant part. But also how they integrate with the group, you know, in and around the camp, what they're like as personalities, which is obviously going to be so important when you're away at the World Cup. So for players such as Calvert, Lewin, Lewis Hall, Garner, now is your moment. You know, there's a. There's a bit of pressure. In fact, a lot of pressure. You need to go and perform. And then I think that shifts, you know, for all the reasons that Jack said ahead of the Japan game, really, when it will have a different feel that match. And I guess you could say that's more fine tuning around. Fine tuning is probably going too far, this far ahead of the World cup, but it's more preparation for the World cup, that game. But yeah, I'm really interested how some of these players get on because it feels like, yeah, it feels like the, the spotlight's on them, you know, go and take your opportunity.
- [05:16]
Matt Davis Adams
Well, you wait 18 months for a Man United player to be included in England squad and then two come along at once, namely Harry Maguire and Kobe Mainu. I guess you. It's not, not a huge surprise given their form since Michael Carrick took charge of United, but also given their history with England. Right. That must have come into Tuchel's thinking to some extent.
- [05:34]
Stu James
100. Yeah. It is crazy how quickly things can change in football, isn't it? I mean, you know, they're unable to get a game at club level playing for a team that's really, really struggling and they're totally out of the England picture. And then all of that really has been turned on its head. Kobbie Mainoo, Reuben Amren's treatment of him was strange, really strange. You know, he'd describe him as the future and yet wouldn't play him. His system seemed to really hold back opportunities for Kobbie Manu also because it seemed to be him or Fernandez in there, you know, Bruno Fernandes and him, completely different profile of footballer. So, you know, he's really seized his opportunity under Carrick. Played well. I think his history with England is important. You know, he played in his key figure in the Euros Euro 2024, started all those knockout games, so I think that puts him in a good place too. And then as for Maguire, I think, you know, you look at his experience, his leadership on and off the field, how important that could be. I think they tick, you know, boxes, in my opinion. What's also in the favor of both of them is when I look through the England squad, I feel like centre midfield were not blessed with loads of options and center back really concerns me. So I think there are openings in those positions. You know too for that reason.
- [06:45]
Matt Davis Adams
Stu mentioned centre back there. Jack, do you think Thomas Tugel's wanting to fall back on the tried and trusted Maguire in Stones partnership? I guess that's fitness dependent in Stone's case. Or Mark Gay will probably have something to say about that. And ESRI Konza too. What do you think will be the preferred pair?
- [07:03]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? So Gehe and Konsa are both in the kind of top tier of players. The guys who are going to arrive on Saturday, they're not around for this particular game, I think in recognition of how much football they played recently for their clubs. But Stones is an interesting one, isn't he? Because he's barely played for City for months. Like he's clearly not at the top of Pep Guardiola's pecking order. But Thomas Tuchel absolutely adores Stones. Stones can do things that no other England centre back can do. And like with all due respect to Gehenn Konsa, who are really good at what they do, Stones is just a different player. If Stones is in decent nick, I am convinced that he will be playing in the World cup. But he just needs, he needs to stay fit and he needs to, he probably needs to play and I imagine he might even play both of these England games this week just to keep him in tune. Maguire's an interesting one because he's not played under, under Tuchel, but he's I think his former man United recently and the extra experience that he brings and everything, I think he's, he's now obviously back in the mix as well. So it might well be a kind of throwback to the, you know, the good old days. 2018 World cup pairing of Stones and Maguire against Uruguay tonight.
- [08:08]
Matt Davis Adams
Sticking with defense, Rhys James sidelined, so somebody else he's returned to the squad is Arsenal's Ben White. That after Jarell Quanzah dropped out through injury. What did you make Stu of White's inclusion? He hasn't played loads for Arsenal this season, has he? I mean, is this more just a placeholder in the hope that Rhys James does make it back in time?
- [08:27]
Stu James
Probably, yeah. I'd be surprised if White ends up going to the World Cup. I said for a few reasons really, Matt, you know, he wasn't in the initial 35 man squad. His lack of game time at club level with Arsenal, where he's been a fringe player really for most of the season behind Jurrien Timber and also his injury problems over the last 18 months, I think that would be a worry too going into a tournament and you know Tuco has other options assuming those players come through. So what does go for White in my eyes is the fact that he's he's versatile. You know, he can play centre back too and I know he loves overlapping, but I also think his defensive instincts are a big thing and when I sort of look at the kind of profile of players Tuchel picks at fullback and will come on to Trent in a moment, I think, you know, those defensive instincts are really, really important, how good you are in those one on one duels. And you know White brings that. He is for me first and foremost a fullback who defends. Yes, he likes to get forward, but his defensive characteristics are strong so that works in his favour. But to go back to what I said at the beginning, I think the fact he's not initially picked is telling and he only goes if there's an injury crisis at right back in my
- [09:35]
Matt Davis Adams
eyes shows you how quickly it changes, doesn't it doesn't feel like that long ago we were making teams out of England's right backs and now we're scratching around looking for an Arsenal reserve. Well, as if it were pre planned, that's going to lead us on to talk about the omission of another player in that position. Real Madrid's Trent Alexander Arnold
- [09:55]
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- [11:15]
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- [11:51]
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- [12:57]
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- [13:03]
Matt Davis Adams
So despite having a 35 man squad for this international break, Thomas Tuchel went without Trent Alexander Arnold, citing it as a sporting decision. And presumably the sporting question is football. Jack, were you surprised at this snub? I mean, it's hard to see a way back for him now, isn't it? If he hasn't made this squad.
- [13:21]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I wasn't that surprised because he's only, I think he's only made one appearance under Tuchel, which was in June of last year. Tuchel was actually quite critical of Alexander Arnold's defending at that point. And the fact is that, you know, it's, it's not new for England managers to find it difficult to integrate Alexander Arnold into their team. You know, this was a constant theme under Southgate. Alexander Arnold was never really, he was never really first choice, right? Back under Southgate, you know, he actually ended up playing in central midfield in the Euros in 2024. Lee Carley did have him as first choice right back during his brief stint between Southgate and Tuchel. But so in that sense it's nothing new. I think what is maybe makes it a little bit more surprising is the fact that given Carl Walker's retired from international duty, Kieran Trippier is retired from international duty and Rhys James, who is the first choice right back basically is now injured. So it's not like there's a long list of top players ahead of Alexander Arnold. And the fact is, you know, the guys who are competing to play at right back against Uruguay are White, who's not played for England since Qatar. Tino Livermento, who's, you know, had good player but he's had injuries this season. Jed Spence, who's had not a brilliant season frankly. And he's been largely playing at left back. So it's not like there are top right backs ahead of Alexander Arnold in the pecking order. And I think that just goes to show that it really does come down to profile. And I think, I think, I wonder whether managers just think that because Alexander Arnold has got such a unique skill set, you don't really have the time in international football to integrate that into your team and to kind of recalibrate your team to make the most of what he can and can't do.
- [14:52]
Matt Davis Adams
The Matt letissier of the 2000s, perhaps England have struggled to accommodate him. Real Madrid as well to a certain extent. I mean he played centre mid at the last Euros for a bit, didn't he? That was a fever dream and a half. Does it show, Stu, just how much Liverpool system was suited to his strength? I mean they've missed him a lot this season if England haven't.
- [15:13]
Stu James
Yeah, I think, you know, Liverpool's system helped him loads, didn't it? He had a lot of freedom with the way that Liverpool played. And the sort of freedom you're realistically not going to get, I don't think is a fullback at international level. And you know, the defensive focus those comments from took the end of. I think it was the summer last year, wasn't it? Jack June last year when he said he needs to take the defensive part of his game very, very seriously. There's a pretty clear message there, isn't it? You know, that I don't actually think you're doing that at this moment in time. And I remember Pep Linders spoke about this at Liverpool and he felt like the focus defensively at Liverpool was more on the Collective and less on the individual in this case obviously Alexander Arnold. So he'd argue it was more about how the team defended and that Alexander Arnold should be left really in a one on one situation. Something's gone wrong there because I do think, and I'm a big Trent Alexander fan and amazing skill set as Jack said but I do think there's a vulnerability with him defensively when he gets isolated. So yeah, it's interesting. I mean he kind of redefined that right back role, didn't he? For a period at Liverpool he was like he was a playmaker at right back. He was at times the most influential player on the pitch and playing in that position. And I guess you also look at it, I mean this season they've had problems at Frimpong, Dominic Szavoslay kind of Bradley's had his injuries, you know, it's. None of that has obviously helped but they've missed his creativity. Liverpool for sure. And part of me wonders, not obviously the sole reason but how much that impacted on Salah's form this season as well. You know those two dovetailed for years brilliantly on the right and he's not there now. He's had multiple other players playing out right back. So yeah, it's, it's a strange word and you know, just come back to England thing I was, I was looking, he's, he's only won 34 England caps, Jack, which is extraordinary, isn't it really? And, and you know when you go back through the games and see when he does play he's kind of rarely been trusted in big games. So there is a clear theme there. And I guess on that note I can understand why Jack says really it isn't that surprising. He's, he's been left out and it's very difficult to see him going to the World cup now isn't it? If you don't make the 35 man squad how do you suddenly end up going?
- [17:18]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I think if you look at the like Tuchel's been asked a few times, you know, over the course of the last week or two, is the door closed? Is this, you know, just what does this mean for his international career? And of course he's not going to say yes, the door is closed. You know, of course he's always going to leave it open in public but given the players he has picked, given the way that he's shaped this squad, given the fact that he had well initially Quansah, Livermento and Spence as the right backs and now obviously Quansah's injured. Ben White's in instead, ahead of Alexander Arnold. I think as it stands, it's very, very difficult to see how he goes. And I think on one level that's a shame, right? Because it's in ideal world, you would want the most talented English players, of which Alexander Arnold clearly is one. You know, you don't get to play for Real Madrid by accident, but he's just. He's just not in the picture, is he? And it's a shame, I think. I think that's a bit of a shame.
- [18:08]
Matt Davis Adams
So it's really important then, Jack, that Rhys James does come back, by the sounds of it, because his deputy, as you say, would be Tino Liberamento, who's got his own injury history. I mean, there would have been a world at one point where you could have called upon an Aaron Wan Bissaka or an Olorina, who both played for England through youth groups and then. And then switched allegiances. But, yeah, a lot of pressure on them getting Rhys James fit and keeping him fit, which has obviously been a big issue throughout his career.
- [18:33]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, a lot of pressure on. On that. And I think it would be wrong for England to be overconfident about the fitness of anyone going to this World Cup. But this is going to be a really physically draining World Cup. It's a new format. It's an extra round of games. You've got to play eight games to win it rather than seven. Like, whatever route they take through the tournament, England will have lots of times where they've got one game and then three days, then the next game. So it's going to take an awful lot out of the players and I think they will need, you know, good, robust backups for every position. And that means that, you know, given James injury, the question of who is the next right back in line is a really, really important question. And I think it's really, you know, it matters what happens. What's happened in training this week. Is it going to be Livermento or Spence or White who starts tonight? My guess at this point would be Livermento. I think he's probably next in line, but there's a lot of pressure on. And if he, you know, if he does well, if it is him, and if he does well, then it'll be fascinating to see what happens in the Japan game on Tuesday. I also would not be shocked if, you know, he's tried, I think concert right back during the course of the qualifiers. I wonder if we might see a bit of that again. I think Burn has played full back as well, I think at left back. So I wouldn't be surprised if he sees maybe a center back shifting across. But yeah, it's a really big opportunity for all those guys.
- [19:49]
Matt Davis Adams
Meanwhile, at the other end of the pitch, Brighton Stani Welbeck probably feeling a bit hard done by not to have made the cut. Having his best Premier League scoring season to date with 12 goals up to this point. Do you think he deserved an England return? Stuart's interest in the players who've been picked ahead of him?
- [20:06]
Stu James
Yeah, proper center forward goals too, you know, right place, right time. I think that was a really difficult call whether to go with World Beck all or Carver Lewin. Well, I say those two because we were asked to put together our England squads for the World Cup. When I was looking at this I did consider Ollie Watkins but I thought he wasn't in good enough form to be understudied to Kane. And I was really torn as to whether it should be Carvert Lewin or Welbeck. And this is terrible. I was ageist about this really and I looked at Welbeck, 35, I think Calvert Lewin's just turned 29 and I went with a younger player. Had we been picking a squad of 35 players like Tuchel has done now, there's absolutely no way Welbeck would not have been in that squad from my point of view. And I was really surprised that Solanke was picked ahead of him. I think Worldbeck, that's harsh on him. He's done really well this season. He's scored 12 Premier League goals. He looks in really good physical shape too. You look at the number of matches he's played, I think he's been involved in all but one of Brighton's Premier League games. He started 20 of them, put forward a really good case and strikes me as a good guy too. Always Welbeck, I'd imagine his experience would be good, his leadership around the group. So yeah, it's tough on him and it's funny, isn't it how things happen that he, he gets overlooked. Following day pretty much goes. And it was the following day wasn't he? Goes and scores two against Liverpool. You know, what a. What a great kind of response. So interesting. I won't rule him out completely also because Solanke's had his injury issues and Cart Lewin's, you know, injury history too. So he could I guess come back into the picture. But yeah, tough on him.
- [21:36]
Matt Davis Adams
Jacob Tanswell's got an interview up on the Athletic Today with Keenan Davies, he's doing great things in Serie A this season. He's asked the question as to whether he might make the squad. He replied, I think you're being a bit outlandish but maybe not more outlandish than an out of form Calvert Lewin or an injury prone Solanke. Who do you think is going to be Jack? Who's going to be getting splinters in their. In their bum watching Harry Kane do all the hard work?
- [22:01]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I would probably bet on Calvert Lewin over Solanke. Solanke. I've seen obviously watch a lot of Solanke this season since he came back from the ankle injury that really ruined the first half of the season for him. He's worked really hard, he scored a few goals but he's not. I don't think he's quite the level he was at the first half of last season before he got that knee injury. I think Calvert Lewin has really at points this season for Leeds look really, really good. I would probably bet on Calvert Lewin but I guess ultimately this is the point of what Tuchel's done this week, right, is he wants to. He wants Calvert Lewin and Solanke competing in training without having Kane there, without having Kane breathing down their necks. I imagine that the selection decisions that he'll make for tonight's game will be based on what he's seen in training. But if I had to bet, I would probably bet on Calvert Lewin.
- [22:47]
Matt Davis Adams
Okay. All this talk of slightly injury prone English players is making me a little nervous, I must admit.
- [22:53]
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- [22:57]
Matt Davis Adams
Well, this is the part of the show where with the help of our partners Betfair, we show you how he can play in a different league this season. James Mackey's back with us. James, we've just been discussing Trent, Alexander, Arnold and Denny Welbeck not being in the England squad this time around. I wonder what their odds are to make the cut when Thomas Tuchel makes the announcement in June.
- [23:18]
James Mackey
Yeah, Matt, there'd be no surprise that we've seen drifts on both these players to head to the World cup with Danny Welbeck. It's a big one being as short as 13 to 5 at the start of the season, but now out to 17 2. And it's amazing really that he's the top English scoring strike in the Premier League this season. Tuchel, for whatever reason, he's not having him to be the backup striker for Kane. Trent, on the other hand, he has drifted from 8 to 11 to now, odds against 11 to 10 to make the squad. But I think there's two ways to look at him with him because two shall seen enough and he wants, he thinks right he will make the squad and doesn't need to risk him in these games. Or is it the opposite? Look, I think it's a difficult one with Trember. I'd like to probably say Welbeck might not be on that plane.
- [23:58]
Matt Davis Adams
Okay, well we're looking at some other players in different areas of the squads who've had some movement in terms of their odds to make the cut. What about the goalkeepers? I mean if you're English, you get in this squad. So I'm guessing there's quite a few contenders here.
- [24:12]
James Mackey
Yeah, there's been some big movers from all different positions but we'll start with the keepers. And the inclusion of Jason Steele into the latest 35 man squad has seen him go from what was a big price at 33 to 1 now into 7 to 1. And that was from all from March 20th. But look, it looks unlikely, doesn't it? Aaron Ramsdale is the interesting one though. He's been in and out the Newcastle team this season but now looking to be what? He's the number one really Freddie Howe now, isn't he? With Nick Pope dropping to the bench, many think that he might be the third choice in goal for Tucson. He was as big as 4 to 1 now into even money, Matt.
- [24:42]
Matt Davis Adams
And what about in midfield? Lots of options for Thomas Tuchel there.
- [24:46]
James Mackey
Yeah. So similar story with midfielders. James Garner has been a huge mover from 21 into 13 to 5 now I've been included in this squad. Kobi Mainey was as big as 6:1 when the market opened. Now into odds on 8 to 15. Obviously he went to the last euros, didn't he? Another interest on his Archie Gray who is as big as 221 now into 131 just on the defenders. Harry Maguire, he's been one of our biggest movers. 9 to 2 now into 411 to make the play. Now having been in this squad and look he's been a bit of a stalwart for England has he over the last few years. So really interesting. Ben White Another 112 now into 72 with that right back conundrum for Tuchel to solve.
- [25:23]
Matt Davis Adams
And up front who's most likely to spend an entire tournament sitting on the bench keeping their fingers crossed that Harry Kane rolls his ankle.
- [25:30]
James Mackey
Well, this market's been really interesting actually and we've mentioned a few Big movers but this is definitely got to be the biggest. Dominic Calvert Lewin was 51 when the market opened to go to the World cup and I don't think many people thought that he would. Look he's definitely with a chance now and he's 21 to 10 now to make that cut on the plane. That mid part of the season was brilliant for him, wasn't he? And he couldn't stop scoring but now he's tailed off a bit. But look, is he going to be Watkins, is it going to be Calvert Lewin, is it going to be Solanke? Well Solanke he's another one that was as big as 7 to 1. Now into 21 to 10 it's all around that price that obviously punters can't make their mind up yet. And maybe this fatouche will make their mind up Harvey Barnes he's interested in, he's now into five to one obviously choosing England over Scotland from 18 to one. So yeah the striker conundrums is an interesting one Matt, but look the similar prices are 21 to 10 for both Calvin Lewin and Solanke from bigger price
- [26:20]
Matt Davis Adams
and Calvert Lune of course has scored the winning goal for England in a World cup final before the end of 20s back in 2017. All right James, that was a nice change of pace for us. Appreciate your time, we'll catch up with you soon.
- [26:31]
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- [26:36]
Matt Davis Adams
Right. We referenced this five goalkeeper business at the top. Dean Henderson, Jordan pick for James Trafford, Aaron Ramsdale and most surprisingly Brighton's Jason Steele. Tuchel has talked about Steel's inclusion. Let's have a listen to what he said.
- [26:49]
Thomas Tuchel
Well Jason is a bit of a, bit of a particular one because we're planning to take four goalkeepers to the World cup and the fourth goalkeeper then has a special role. So the three goalkeepers will compete and support each other for the matches but they will also compete of course for a place in goal. The fourth goalkeeper in a World cup is then a specialist. He will support the goalkeeper group, he will support the goalkeeper coach, he will support a penalty taking group and take a lot of workload off of the other shoulders. And that's why we need an experienced guy. We need a guy with quality, with experience and with the right energy and attitude and we believe that Jason is this guy.
- [27:35]
Matt Davis Adams
What do you make of this Jack? Probably a bit of a surprise to Steele but it's not a bad idea is it? The principle of it?
- [27:42]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, I mean it's not the first time that England have had a training goalkeeper, you know, who I would assume is there not so much to play the games, but just to be a really positive part of training and to help the other goalkeepers. I think in Euro 2024 they brought Tom Heaton in basically in the same capacity. So Pickford, Ramsdale and Dean Henderson were the three keepers for that tournament in Germany, but they had Heaton with them as well because, you know, he's a really respected, experienced goalkeeper who brings a lot out of other people and really good in training and all the rest of it. So I would imagine that Steel might be fulfilling a similar function as Heat did last time.
- [28:19]
Matt Davis Adams
And meanwhile, this time last year, it was Miles Lewis Skelly grabbing the headlines. He is in the wilderness for Arsenal at the moment. And Nico O'Reilly is the new hot young thing. Is, is he going to be England's starting left back, do you think, Stu?
- [28:31]
Stu James
Quite possibly. He's been an outstanding form for some time. He's had a brilliant impact since coming into that Manchester City team predominantly as a left back, but he's also excelled in midfield. Scored goals there too recently, obviously in the, in the recent Carabao cup final. For me, he feels very much like the modern academy player in his profile. He's tall, fast, very good, technically a top prospect. You know, we talked earlier about, you know, the United players and how quickly things can change. You know, Lewis Scully's just been through the absolute reverse of that, hasn't he? I know that because I spent ages writing about 4,000 words on a backgrounder on him last summer. That's never going to see the light of day. But yeah, unfortunately for him, he's. He's out of the picture for club and country now. O'Reilly, I'd say, has a great chance to go to the World Cup. His first choice, left back. But I really like Lewis Hall. I'm so impressed with him when I see him. I think he's a really good footballer. What's interesting with the two of them is they both, and I guess like Trent too, came through the academy years playing as a, as a midfielder, you know, little wonder they look so comfortable at fullback. What worries me though is what happens to all the academy fullbacks. Where do they go if. If root to being a first team player at fullback as being an academy midfielder? Yeah, I don't know what the end game is for those other players, but anyway, I think England are in a good position there. Livermento can play left back too. Right. Jack so, you know, I feel, yeah, I feel England have options there. It's probably a case of who is going to be that nailed on starter at the minute. I'd probably hang my hat on O'Reilly there.
- [30:00]
Matt Davis Adams
Yeah, I watched Lewis hall come through the Chelsea Academy and I don't think I ever saw him play a game at left back. So it was a bit of a surprise. But, but he, he is arguably Jack in as good, if not better form as a left back as O'Reilly at the moment. And O'Reilly's got this versatility, hasn't he? I guess hall offers you possibly more as an out and out defender maybe.
- [30:20]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, I think O'Reilly will definitely, definitely go. I mean he's in part of the group that's showing up on Saturday morning. He's in good form with Manchester City. Played different positions. In terms of who actually starts at left back in the World Cup, I think it's pretty open. I think O'Reilly, hall and Liverment are probably the three. I don't really know which way it's going to go, but Hall, I'm sure Hall would have been in more squads had he, had he been fit like he's been. You know, I think I'm right in saying he was in Tuchel's first squad in like this time last year, but I think he missed, I think he missed all three of the autumn camps with injuries and he's only now come back in, so maybe he's a little bit behind. Whereas like Livermento played really well at left back when they went to Serbia, won five nil in September. So maybe he's slightly ahead at the moment, but it's a really open competition. I think that left back has been one of the biggest question marks through the Tuchel era. So let's wait and see.
- [31:13]
Matt Davis Adams
Midfield wise, we mentioned Manes inclusion. He's in there with James Garner, Jordan Henderson and Adam Wharton, all of whom it seems are behind Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson. Do you think, Jack, that it's going to be those two, barring injury, who are going to line up in England's first game?
- [31:30]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yeah, I think Anderson has been basically the story of this England campaign so far. It's kind of come from nowhere in terms of the England senior team and he's now one of the first names on the team sheet. I think he complements Rice really well. He keeps the ball really well. He's really mobile. He's a real all rounder, I think, and I can't see any obvious weaknesses in his game. Those two will definitely start, and then the competition is more around Wharton, Jordan, Henderson, Mainoo. Like the other, you know, potentially garner, I guess, the other possible central midfielders.
- [32:01]
Stu James
I'm a really big Adam Morton fan. I totally agree with what Jack said. I think that's the first choice, pairing Rice and Anderson. Anderson was great on his debut at Villa Park. Was that Andorra, Jack?
- [32:10]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yes. Yeah. Villa Park, Andorra.
- [32:12]
Stu James
Yeah. And I know some people say, well, it was only Andorra, but the way he just demanded the ball all the time, straight away, I just thought that was really impressive in an England shirt. Some people could sort of shrink a little bit in that situation. So, yeah, a lot of time for him. But I think Wharton should go, too. You know, I'm not saying he should start. I just think he's a really good player to have in the squad because, you know, we've used this word a lot. Profile. He has a different profile. His first thought is, can I play forward? And I think that's a big thing. And if you're playing against teams with a low block where, you know you're getting a little bit frustrated, he's just got that ability to kind of play one of those disguised passes that breaks the lines that other players don't play. And I don't think he worries Matt if he gives the ball away. I really like that he'll sort of still try and play the next one forward. So, yeah, I'm really hopeful that he's on the plane.
- [32:57]
Matt Davis Adams
Yeah. Great option off the bench. I think, in the conditions that the tournament's going to be played as well, if you want somebody to come on and keep the ball for you, you know how good Adam Wharton is at doing that. All right, we'll take one final break. When we come back, we'll talk about who's most likely to feature an attack.
- [33:17]
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- [34:33]
Athletic FC Podcast Sponsor Announcer
This is the Athletic FC podcast, proudly sponsored by Betfair.
- [34:39]
Matt Davis Adams
So we've mentioned some of the strikers who might play understudy to Harry Kane this summer. What about those who are going to play around him? We've got Cole Palmer, Phil Foden, Jude Bellingham and Morgan Rogers all in the current squad. Jack, are you only starting one of them? If so, who? Or are you going to be able to make a case for squeezing two of them in there?
- [35:01]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I suspect that only one of them will start. Tuchel is being really clear, like he doesn't just want to shoehorn the best players in. He wants players to have very, very specific roles. I think all of them are ultimately competing to be the number 10, although Foden has played as a false nine for England in the November camp. So I would say just one and I would say that one would, I mean at the moment is Rodgers. Rodgers has been kind of the regular starter in the last few months. Obviously Bellingham was, you know, missed the. Missed the October squad quite notably, but if I had to bet on the World Cup, I would probably go for Bellingham because I just think Bellingham is, you know, he's sort of. He has proven himself more at international level than the other guys. I mean, we're still waiting to see Palmer and Foden really perform as well for England as they have done for their clubs. I just think it will probably in the end be Bellingham, but in that
- [35:54]
Matt Davis Adams
case, Stu and I don't disagree with Jack, but Morgan Rodgers might feel hard done by, right. Because he's a played consistently, not. Not been injured to my knowledge, for. For much of this season and also has performed fairly consistently for Villa as well, maybe to a degree that the others haven't.
- [36:12]
Stu James
Yeah. And he's impressed me when he's played in an England shirt. You know, he's done well for England. We're talking here about a lot of games being played in a short period of time in the world Cup. And if Bellingham starts, there's every chance that Rodgers comes on in that game. You know, it could easily change in the next game. You know, we've seen situations in the past with England where players have played regularly in the group stage and then it's flipped for the knockouts. Yeah, I don't think anything's set in stone there. The others are curious for me. Foden. Foden's had a strange season. You know, he had a little purple patch, I want to say, around October, November, he came back to form, it felt like, and he thought, brilliant. Foden's back and he's drifted again now, and that's a worry. Cole Palmer's had a curious campaign too. But, you know, you know, with those players, they are elite talents. They're. They're capable, obviously of moments of brilliance. But I would go along with Jack at the minute, I'd give. And obviously Bellingham's got a few fitness concerns to overcome, but I go with Bellingham. That would be my thinking going into the World cup, assuming he's fully fit. But, yeah, Rodgers is breathing down his neck and I think that's a really good thing as well. Bellingham knows that that isn't nailed on. He's not a first name on the team sheet that he might have thought he was a little while back. So, yeah, he's got to perform and that's no bad thing.
- [37:22]
Matt Davis Adams
Eza unavailable for this particular squad. Some talk of Max Dalmont, who's left the door open for him. It does give me the opportunity, Jack to crowbar in a mention for Forest captain Morgan Gibbs White. Might he feel a little hard done by that Harvey Barnes got the call up and not him? Given that Gibbs White has really found his form in the last month or so, yeah, maybe.
- [37:42]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I guess Gibbs White's probably in that category of players who, if he hasn't made the extended squad this week, you'd have to say that barring a big injury crisis, he probably won't be involved in the summer, which is a shame for him because I really like him as a player. I think he brings a huge amount in terms of energy and skill and leadership on the pitch. But at the moment, I think it probably looks like there are other players ahead of him in the pecking order.
- [38:09]
Matt Davis Adams
All right, finally then, let's talk about wingers. Let's have a listen to Adam Krafton talking about Bukayo Saka on Monday's fc. This was after Arsenal's Carabao Cup Final defeat to Manchester City.
- [38:19]
Jack Pitt Brooks
Yesterday he was barely in the game and I started to just think it feels like a while since I've seen him, you know, really take a game.
- [38:29]
Stu James
I love him. I love him.
- [38:31]
Jack Pitt Brooks
You know, for me, for the summer, you know, if I think of England and I think of the right wing, I think it's like one of the
- [38:36]
Stu James
only positions I'm not really thinking about.
- [38:38]
Jack Pitt Brooks
But then I actually think, am I just going off memories?
- [38:42]
Matt Davis Adams
What do you think, Stu? Does he need to improve his form if he's going to keep his place in the starting 11?
- [38:48]
Stu James
Yeah, I mean, his numbers aren't what they have been in the past. It's plain to see. It's been strange in that respect. I do worry with Saka that he's been overplayed. He's just been on this continuous cycle of football and looks like he kind of needs a breather. And that's not a great situation to go into, knowing full well he's going to be playing in a number of key games for Arsenal between now and the end of the season, too. But I'd be really surprised if Tuchel moved away from starting with Saka. I think there'd be a lot of trust there with what Saka brings to the team in terms of how England play and what he's given England over an extended period of time. So, look, you know, he's not had a terrible season by any stretch, but he hasn't hit the heights that we're used to. You know, I think it's nine goals, seven assists and 42 appearances, all competition. So those numbers aren't where he'd want to be. But, yeah, I still see him as a. Is a starter. The real curious one for me, and I think Jack and I had a conversation about this ages ago. I've seen tricorders like. Who plays on the left wing, Jack, whose position is that?
- [39:44]
Jack Pitt Brooks
I would. Yeah, left wing. I mean, I think I agree with you. I think right wing probably will be Saka. I mean, think he likes the competition with Madoieke and Bowen, but I think it will be Saka in the end. Left wing is really open. I would still go for Rashford just because I think Rashford on his day is better than Gordon on his day. Or even Madueke, who can play. Yeah, obviously Madaway, he can play both sides, which is a big boost for him. But I just think Rashford, if you can get Rashford at his absolute best, he's such a good player, I would take the risk on getting the very best of Marcus Rashford I think, even though I absolutely accept that he's not really delivered for a while in terms of numbers.
- [40:22]
Matt Davis Adams
Plenty of decisions ahead for Thomas Tuchel then, and he might have to make them all again by the end of the season when people pull up injured. Let's hope not. Couple of big games for England over the next few days, then against Uruguay on Friday night and then against Japan next week. We'll see who comes out of those with their reputations enhanced, but that's where we're going to leave things for today. Many thanks to Jack and Stu for their expertise. FC returns on Monday. For now, though, it's goodbye.
- [40:49]
Athletic FC Podcast Sponsor Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Jay Beale and John Rogers and the presenter was Matt Davis Adams. The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows Search for the Athletic in all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production and proudly sponsored by Betfair.
- [41:24]
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- [42:22]
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