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- [00:00]
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- [01:32]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, IO Akimolere. This season, plenty of managers have talked themselves into trouble. Oliver Glasner angered Crystal palace fans by telling them to stay humble. And Ruben Amorim got sacked shortly after public criticism of Manchester United. So just how powerful are a manager's words? All right, in with us for this one football language supremo Charlie Ecclescher. We've also got Jack Pitt Brook, who has seen his fair share of rants from spurs managers over the years as well. All right, gents, let's start with a recent example because last week Crystal palace manager Oliver Glassner started a war of words with the fans. He said, I always said the most important thing is stay humble and it's the same for the fans. Never forget where you're coming from. I think a few who are so critical are not so humble and forgot where they came from and you get punished for this. So the context of this obviously is that Glassner delivered the club's first ever major trophy, but then he Revealed that he was also leaving at the end of the season. Slight hypocrisy here, Charlie.
- [02:53]
Charlie Ecclescher
I mean, it's definitely an unusual situation for a manager to trail their exit so long in advance. I guess his worry was that it was going to leak and then he wouldn't sort of be in control of the narrative, which is, you know, a big part of it, whether you're a football manager or a politician or whatever. And then the stay humble thing is it's really difficult because I listened to what he was saying, where he kind of listed out his achievements at the club and went into quite granular detail about, like, the number of points that palace had had after that number of games in the previous 10 years and where they ranked and all this stuff. And I do think I understand a manager's temptation to do that sort of thing. The problem is a bit like with a politician, you know, ramming down. Ramming your achievements down people's throats doesn't always work particularly, particularly well. Like, especially football fans, we're emotional. Like, that's how you kind of connect with us. And so I think, I don't know how many Crystal palace fans will go away from that and be like, ah, to be fair, he is right. Like, in seven of the nine previous seasons, we have had fewer points after 27 games. What more, what might resonate will be kind of the classic rallying cry or whatever. But I can see from his point of view he does want to remind them and everyone, I guess, because it's not just fans he's speaking to, he probably thinks he's talking to a wider audience, that he has done a pretty incredible job and it wasn't long ago that they did have, you know, the best day in the club's history.
- [04:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I do think about that and I wonder what he's trying to achieve, whether it's just an honest reaction, Jack, because, I mean, based on recent history, he's Palace's most successful ever manager, really, if you think about it. But this is also someone looking for work elsewhere, right? I mean, what kind of PR is this for a potential employer?
- [04:35]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Like, he's obviously, objectively, he has done a fantastic job at palace, and yet I think that what fans. Fans obviously want a manager who wants to be there. And I think that his. While, to an extent, I think fans will have sympathy with the manager who's complaining about transfer business. And obviously Glasson's done a lot of complaining about transfers over the course of this season. Ultimately, I think fans want to know that the manager is willing to kind of muck in and get his hands dirty and try and hold everything together. And I don't think that's not the impression that I've got from the outside. Watching Glasner recently, I think that Glasner has. I mean, the toys clearly gone out of the pram. And I think that it kind of feels to me like he is engaging too much in a PR war with the palace board in a way that I think fans think. Well, ultimately, fans are still, you know, fans are still showing up, buying tickets, going to the games, and they want. They want to see a manager who's kind of pulling in the same direction. And they also know that while it's true that he has done a really good job, fans hate any sense, even in an unstated sense, that they're lucky to have the manager. I mean. I mean, I think we're going to talk about Antonio Conte later, but there was always, when Conte was at Tottenham, there was always this sense in the background which Conte didn't mind leaning on, which was, you guys are lucky to have me. I'm so good. You guys have not been great recently, but I'm here. And isn't that great news for you that I've shown up to manage your team? And, like, fans don't like that at all. Like, they really. They never have done. And I think that Glasner has, you know, whether intentionally or not and whether like stated or not, has clearly kind of led into that sense, I think, over the last few months. And I think it's totally understandable that fans would bristle at that.
- [06:20]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Charlie, the glass of thing's really interesting because, you know, much has been made of, obviously, the exits that have happened at Crystal palace. And he's cut a really unrested personality since obviously the trophies that they've won, they've lost Gehe, they've lost Eze. But he must have known the situation he's walking into at Crystal Palace. Crystal palace aren't ever really the greatest spenders in. In the Premier League. So this idea of staying humble, I mean, the club is humble, but, you know, they're also enjoying where they are in this current place in time. And also he, dare I say, could be blamed for causing a sadness in a club that were actually jubilant this time last season.
- [07:01]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah. But I do think as. As we touched upon, part of the audience is the kind of wider footballing audience, you know, sporting directors at other clubs and what have you. And, and don't underestimate as well. Although, yeah, he would have known that deep down. I think managers always think that through their sort of force of personality and will, they can do something different at a club, even though the story of that club may be well written or established in people's minds. Look at every Tottenham manager who goes in thinking that they're going to be the one who does something different. And Jack mentioned Antonio Conte and I think that is a really great point because it's spot on. He always gave the impression it was, you know, slightly beneath him, that they were lucky to have him. There was a slight element of that you got from Mourinho as well. He, you know, he was certainly happy to remind you of his credentials and how much greater they were than the clubs. But it's interesting as well because I know that teams, when they're appointing managers, they will look at their media relations because as we're talking about, you know, they give.
- [07:58]
Ayo Akimolere
So.
- [07:58]
Charlie Ecclescher
Because there are so many games now, they give so many press conferences and they're the only person who we hear from a club. So it's so about this. So it may end up being slightly short sighted from Glassner because if you are, you know, looking at his media relations, you might stop and question, well, he has massively fallen out with a fan base where he gave them their best day not that long ago. Is that a red flag for some clubs, you know, for whom there's going to be a, you know, if he wants to move to a bigger in averted commas club than palace, there's going to be a lot more scrutiny on his press conferences and on every word he says.
- [08:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Can we talk about Ange Postecoglou, Jack? You know, a man that was brought in in many respects to unite the board and the fans because he's straight talking, very pragmatic and sort of, in my eyes, sort of spoke to me as a football fan. But also in fairness, he's also backed himself quite publicly as well, especially when the chips were down for him with the press. That famous, always winner a second trophy in my second season mate or I always win a trophy in my second season mate. You know, he, you know, he blows his own trumpet quite easily as well.
- [09:03]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, I mean, I think we've seen that this in the last week or two when he's gone on the stick to football podcast and you just get. I thought those appearances were a reminder of the fact that I don't really think there's anybody In Postecoglou's league, when it comes to being able to talk convincingly and sell. Sell a narrative to the world about him and his work and just to connect with people as well, like, he's. I think that you can't. You can't really analyze the work that he's done in his career purely in terms of the football itself. It's more than just the football. Like, it's. You know, we can talk. People talk a lot about Angeball, but I think the whole kind of Postecoglou management experience, it does rest an awful lot on his ability to. It's not. I mean, I don't want to make it sound like it's just salesmanship, because I think it's more than that. It's also. I think he has a real ability to explain in a convincing way what he's trying to do, the sort of football he's trying to play, without ever getting bogged down in jargon, without ever sounding like he's talking down to people. I think it's a real kind of politician skill that being able to explain his methods and his strategic goals in a way which people can easily understand and which can bring people along with him, both the. The people he works with inside the club, whether that's players and staff or people in the outside world, fans and media and so on. So it's a really. I think it's a really unique gift that he has. And I think that you can't really. I don't think you can analyze any of the work that he's done independent of that ability to talk convincingly in public day after day after day.
- [10:39]
Charlie Ecclescher
Ange is a storyteller. Like any great politician, he tells stories. He does it incredibly well. His whole story of being this outsider, the immigrant who went in and who found a connection with his aloof dad through football. Like, what an amazing story that is. And. And it's all kind of extensions of that. That's how he connects with the players. And I remember, like, his ability to set a narrative or reset a narrative. I remember towards the end of his first season, they were on a really bad run and they'd just been beaten by Chelsea away. This is like May 2024, and he just comes in and also it was a Thursday game and they were playing on the Sunday against Liverpool. He could have, I think, just tacked on a few questions at the end of the Thursday night press, you know, give some platitudes and go and not have to talk to the media the next Day. But he knows how good he is at talking to the media. And he gave this amazing press conference where he just reset the whole. Reframed the whole narrative of being like, you know, we're on a journey. Think of where we came from. You know, there are going to be bumps in the road, etc. And you were like, wow, that's incredibly convincing. And I remember so often with Ange in that first season, and he talks, you know, in a way I've never heard a football manager talk. You know, he's so convincing and compelling and being like, either he is, like, a complete genius or this is not gonna ring true. And what's so interesting is that it was somewhere in between, because on one hand, he was the genius who ended, you know, this long, long wait for a trophy. On the other, he was the one who they finished 17th with. So. But yeah, I totally agree with Jack. He's. He's pretty much peerless. I mean, I wrote a long piece on his oratory and his speaking style soon after.
- [12:17]
Ayo Akimolere
That's the orator. You wrote it?
- [12:18]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah, yeah. And it is like. And spoke to former players, former colleagues, even a public speaking expert. And we went through some of his speeches because, you know, he did, you know, like, after Celtic won the second title, he did this amazing rousing, like, champions again and. And everyone goes nuts. But I think he should be the reference point for a lot of people. The challenge is authenticity is, like, the key thing. And he. He has that. It's very difficult. You know, you can't just say to a manager, you know, be able to tell amazing stories, have a great backstory, connect with people. Like, those are not easy things to do. He had that pretty naturally and worked on it, I think, as well.
- [12:55]
Ayo Akimolere
That was my next question for you, Charlie. Just from the work you've been doing on Ange and looking into the way he speaks as well, do you think it's by design or is just who he is, mate? Sorry.
- [13:06]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah, Well, I remember speaking to someone who worked with him. Cause what's interesting about Ange is when he was kind of in the wilderness early on in his managerial career, he did punditry work. And that was what got him back into the kind of consciousness of Australian football. Cause they were like, oh, this guy's a great talker. And one of the guys who worked with him at Fox Sports said to me that they thought the fact that he'd done that did give him a real sense of how the media worked. So he could kind of see it from both Sides, I think a lot of football managers don't really know what the point of the media is in a way, or like, either don't know or don't really want to know, don't care, and just see it as like, oh, this is a mandatory thing I've got to do before every game. He was very aware of what the point was and how to connect with people. But I also think a lot of that is natural. He was captain of South Melbourne when he was in his 20s. He had those natural leadership skills as well. So I think the kind of natural charisma and charm coupled with the intelligence to kind of work out how that could be most effective is sort of the secret behind his oratorical success.
- [14:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Is it about authenticity at Jack? You know, Glassner could be said to be overly authentic. So can Anje Postecoglou. But then you look at someone like Marco Carrick, probably not a manager, more of an interim coach, head coach right now. But, you know, he's just very straight to the point, no frills Jack, but gets the job done on the field and that's what does the talking.
- [14:33]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, I mean, I certainly think that authenticity is really important in terms of how managers connect with fans. I think the one thing fans don't want, they don't like jargon and they also don't like the sense that the wool is being pulled over their eyes. And that's difficult, obviously, because there is clearly such a thing as. I think there is arguably such a thing as too much honesty, you know, like. I mean, I know we'll come to that.
- [14:55]
Charlie Ecclescher
The Ruben Amarim law.
- [14:56]
Jack Pitt Brook
Exactly.
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Ayo Akimolere
In a sec. Yeah.
- [14:58]
Jack Pitt Brook
Amarim, in his first, particularly that first year at United, he had no qualms about saying how bad they were. And I think to an extent, fans like that, although I think that.
- [15:08]
Charlie Ecclescher
I think rival fans like it more like, it was hilarious for everyone else.
- [15:12]
Jack Pitt Brook
That's certainly true. I also think it probably. I mean, it arguably undermines your ability to bring everybody with you because you also have to. Like, people want a story, but they also want a positive story. Like, they want to know that they are. They want to know that you have the answers. They want to know that you are leading them in the right direction. I think that, you know, where some. A lot of managers. That's like, where Klopp was so amazing, like, Klopp was so good at convincing the whole Liverpool community from as soon as he took that job that he was going to lead them into the right direction, you know, doubters to Believers, as he's put it. And that that shared belief that they had in him and in his methods meant that they could ride out some, you know, some pretty choppy moments in the first, in the first few years before things really clicked. So it's a balance, but I think it's a balance that has to be underpinned by authenticity. And that if you. And the authenticity is one of those things that is when you, if you lose it or if you don't, if you don't have it, as hard as it is to quantify, it's very hard to ever kind of win it back.
- [16:12]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah, you know it when you see it. I would just say on Klopp as well, he and Ange, I do think, are really good examples of how much easier it is to speak well in inverted commas when you're winning. Like Klopp, when he was winning, when Liverpool were doing well, like, yes, in that early period, he was great at telling a story, but he was amazing when he was winning. He was this charming, gregarious guy. He was really quite nasty often when they had. When they, when things weren't going well. You know, I remember myself asking him a very innocent question after they'd drawn with spurs to basically lose the league in 2022. He gave me a really quite spiky, unnecessarily so answer. And Ange was amazing, you know, when things were going well, he was of. He was naturally less good when they weren't. And I think like these things, they're really important around the edges. But ultimately you are at the mercy of your results to a certain extent. And it's far easier to be humble and generous and all of those things when you're doing well than when you're on the back foot. And naturally you go on the attack and lash out a bit like Glassner has here, because, you know, he's. He feels attacks to a certain extent and he's defending himself.
- [17:20]
Athletic FC Podcast Host (Ayo Akimolere)
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- [19:02]
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- [19:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Well let's talk about managers getting themselves the sack in the lead up to Reuben Amarim's dismissal by Manchester United in January, he said, I just want to say I came here to be manager, not to be the coach. Questioning the hierarchy is never a good idea, is it Jack?
- [20:03]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, totally. I mean I think that amarim I think AM's results were probably survivable. Like AM's results at the start of this season for United were not that bad like they were, you know, they've obviously improved on the Carrick, but I think they were probably roughly around par. But clearly he Decided to, to go to war with the hierarchy. And he made comments about, you know, which were clearly kind of airing dirty laundry in public after discussions he'd had internally with Jason Wilcox. And that really was what led to his dismissal. I mean, I think the same thing's true of Enzo Maresca. Like Chelsea were in a bad spell when he got sacked. But I don't think he got sacked. I don't feel like he got sacked because of results. I feel like he got sacked because again, he criticized, he effectively criticized the hierarchy in public. Maybe he wasn't quite as blunt as Amarin, but he made those comments about, oh, this has been the worst 48 hours since I've been here. And everybody knows what he was getting at there. He'd clearly been issues behind the scenes. And so I think in both those cases, Amarim and Maresca, you see that it's the. As soon as a manager stops toeing the line in public, as soon as a manager stops uniting everyone and starts trying to kind of fling mud around in public against his employers, that's when he's in a difficult situation. So, yeah, it's clearly like in both those cases, it's what they said in public. I think ultimately they did for them.
- [21:19]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah.
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Ayo Akimolere
If we're talking Ange, Charlie, Ange was similar, you know, when he talked about what was going on behind the scenes at Tottenham, you know, and I think the debate was around whether or not they wanted to throw a game away so Arsenal would win the league, you know, against. Against Manchester City, which I thought was really fascinating considering he was a manager under pressure at that time. Is it often a switch that certain people flick if they know it's probably time to go. And actually, I know that the writing's on the wall here possibly.
- [21:47]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah, I mean, don't underestimate as well how much emotion comes into it. Because what I love about manager press conferences is that, yes, they may be briefed to within an inch of their lives by press officers and whatever to say the right thing. There are times when they're just gonna go rogue because they're emotional and they're angry. Especially the post match ones where you often get the kind of most explosive ones, like, we'll talk about the Conte Southampton one. And Ange actually, like, that was really interesting, the Arsenal man City kind of triangle thing that was going on because throughout his managerial career and especially that first season with spurs, he is, he's word perfect when it comes to the fans and uniting the fans. You know, they're talking about let them dream. I'm never going to tell fans what to think. All of this stuff. Amazing fan. You know, it was music to fans ears early on. But he was just so angry about that whole thing. He couldn't help himself. Like I think he said it was the most upset he's ever been as a manager at a game. That 20 home defeat to City in May 2024 when you know, a lot of the fans were wanting spurs to lose the game. So it's not always as sort of calculated. There are times when it is and maybe Amarim. Cause some of Amarim's ones were pre match press conferences where he clearly had thought about it and I guess was the kind of last desperate roll of the dice. You know, it is almost like a bat me or sak me. But. And I think, yeah, Amarim's such an interesting case because for reporters and for non fans of Manchester United, he was amazing. He was a gift. Like there were times you'd hear his quotes and you were like, is that a podcaster talking or is that the manager of Manchester United? I mean this is just like incredibly punchy sort of pod topic material. You know, you turn on and be like, amarim says this is the worst Manchester United team in history. Like that's a discussion point for a pod, not a kind of the manager. And so I think you can understand there why clubs are quite careful about what their managers say because a lot of that stuff that can't be very helpful internally.
- [23:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. All right, Jack, let's talk about Antonio Conte, that infamous press conference where he basically got himself sacked following an incredible rant against the players and also the club. They don't want to play under pressure, they don't want to play under stress. Yeah, it's easy in this way. And Tottenham, Tottenham's story is this 20 years that there is the honor and never won something. Can you just relive that moment for us please, Jack?
- [24:10]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, it was amazing. So he came in after. So I think spurs have been. I think they were 3:1 up with in the second half of that game at Saints. And I think if they'd won, they would have gone third. Yeah, like they were not in a bad position at all. But they threw it away. They conceded twice at the end. I think a very, very late penalty to make it three all. And he just blew up like he, he was. So he kind of threw everyone under the bus, including all the players. I remember writing, normally the manager loses the players, but in this case Conte wanted to make it very clear to the public that the players had lost his confidence rather than the other way around. I think the context you have to remember here is that Conte was coming to the end of his contract. He made it very clear for a long time he didn't want to sign a new one. I think by this point, Tottenham did not want him to sign. They didn't want Conte to stay on anyway because they knew that his heart wasn't in it. So what's the point? So he was always going to go at the end of that season. It was completely clear by that point. And they'd just been knocked out the Champions League in incredibly miserable fashion to AC Milan, where they did basically nothing at all. Instead, a second home leg did nothing at all. And there was such a sense of, what's the point of this anymore? Why are we still going through the motions? If he doesn't want to be here and he clearly doesn't want to be here, what is anybody gaining from any of this? And I think that he just decided had enough. I'm going to get my retaliation in early. I'm going to. I think he must have known this would. This would lead to his sacking. Like, it wasn't inevitable, it wasn't immediate. Straight after, like, he went back to Italy. It was an international break. I think it was another maybe eight days. I think eight or nine days until he actually got. Got terminated. But, yeah, I think it was. I think he was very. No, I know he's an emotional guy and there was obviously a lot of emotion there. But I also think on one level it was a quite knowing, like, burning of his bridges to get himself out of the end of that season.
- [26:02]
Charlie Ecclescher
But he is very emotional. And there were other press conferences that we were at during his Tottenham reign where he really went for it. Like in one of his first few games against Moura. I remember being in Slovenia, this fairly inconsequential Europa Conference League group game, and they lost. And it was, like, embarrassing and it wasn't good enough. But his tone and, like, the stuff he was saying was similar to that Southampton meltdown. And then a couple of months after that, they lost to Chelsea in the League Cup. And he did similarly. Like, there were times when he just really couldn't help himself. And yeah, I think like Jack said, this was kind of the culmination of all of that. He was like, I'm done. He'd been ill as well. I think he was just like he did by. This was like a get me out of here. What I think, what I wonder with that is whether. Because there were only a couple of months left of the season at that point. Like, I wonder if, you know, if they just won that game three one. Does he just give a nothing press conference, then he sees out the next couple of months, or was it just a ticking time bomb? And the next time this happened, which, you know, might have been in the next few games, he would have done similar, and we'll never know.
- [27:04]
Ayo Akimolere
What about the idea that how on earth do you change a team's trajectory other than clearly stating the obvious? Charlie, you know, you spoke about Amraam saying this is the worst Manchester United team, you know, ever in history or whatever. Conte's obviously spoken about Spurs. Igor Tudor once again, after the North London derby defeat, spoke about how they need to look at themselves once again, how much of that is trying to reshape mindsets and go, we can't keep doing what we've done in the past. We need to move forward in a whole new direction. And I'm hoping I'm the guy to do this, but I need to tell you, let's look ourselves in the eye, let's hook ourselves in the mirror and tell ourselves that actually we need to move in a different direction.
- [27:44]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah, it's really hard as well, because to get this right, you need to be. To have, like, a masterful sense of human psychology, because you're trying to talk to, like, a number of. You're trying to talk to fans, potentially. You're talking to the board, you're trying to talk to players, all of whom will have very different backgrounds, some will have very different ages. I mean, this was always the thing with Mourinho, wasn't it, that his sort of confrontational leadership worked very well with players of the generation of Lampard and Terry and those guys. But that didn't work for younger players coming through later on in his career and led to a lot of conflict. So it's like, you've got to have amazing intuitions, and it's about picking your moments. Like, there are only so many times you can, you know, say, we're really bad before it starts losing impact and also before people start questioning you. Like, there are some people who have the currency to do that. You know, they've built up that goodwill over time and that they generally seem to be a positive guy. And then if they don't do, it's like, wow, he, you know, he really must be angry. This is impactful. But. But it's such a Delicate balance to get that right. And then the thing is, you know, then you get ridiculed. If you're a Brendan Rogers, Pollyanna type, you know, he was. He was always incredibly positive, and then that gets derided as kind of David Brent, like, or naive or whatever. So it's like, it's. It's a very tricky balance to find. Yeah.
- [29:05]
Ayo Akimolere
If we're talking about David Brent, and I guess I mean this in the kindest sense of the word, we need to talk about Liam Rossenha because, you know, social media have had a field day since he's joined Chelsea. This is a clip they dug up from his time in France.
- [29:19]
Jack Pitt Brook
Management is making sure that you have
- [29:22]
Ayo Akimolere
a strong culture, that your players have
- [29:24]
Jack Pitt Brook
rules and regulations, and you manage them in the right way. In English, manage. If you split the two words, it's man age. You're aging men.
- [29:32]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, look, in fairness to him, and we've had him on this podcast, Jack, he sounds like a leader of men. He sounds like the guy that you want when you're feeling a bit down, licking your wounds, and he'll. He'll get you up, he'll get you ready for battle. And I don't know, people maybe have a go at it, but it shouldn't be floundered that actually this probably is a new modern star that we're seeing based on everything else that's around. TED Talks, podcasts, and all these coaches and managers are listening to these things in terms of getting those incremental gains for their team.
- [30:05]
Jack Pitt Brook
I think TED Talks is exactly the right thing to identify. Like, I just think there's a big kind of best practice culture in coaching nowadays where coaches will do. Coaches will do a lot of research in all sorts of different fields that they might not have, you know, that managers might not have looked into 10, 20, 30 years ago. And psychology and motivation being a really big part of that. And managers, or at least successful managers, are very curious, and they do try and cast the net wide and learn as much as they can. And so naturally, things that they learn, things they hear about, they are going to try and bring into their management. And obviously, on one level, it's slightly jarring if you've grown up with the kind of different era of management. But equally, these are guys who are, you know, the first thing they think about in the morning is always, how can I get through to the players today? How can I? Because that's really what it comes down to, right? It's like, how can I spark a reaction out of the Guys, how can I just get an extra bit of engagement from them, get an extra bit of commitment from them? How can I convince them to buy into what I'm doing, into the rest of the teammates? And so they are going to do things that maybe from the outside people might think look a little bit cringy, but if you are a manager in that situation, you are going to try any tactic you can just to try and bring those players along with you.
- [31:22]
Ayo Akimolere
Is that what it looks like, Charlie? It looks cringy to us mere football fans who just want our team to bloody score goals.
- [31:28]
Charlie Ecclescher
Yeah. But also, I think there might be an age thing here as well, a man age thing. Like, you know, we are all reared on the Office and Partridge and Peep show and we find all this stuff, like, incredibly painful. I'm not sure that's true of younger people necessarily. And I do also think, like, it's hard because it comes back to that authenticity thing. Like, I think there's a suspicion of cynics like us in the media of, well, this reeks of kind of straight out of a LinkedIn coaching manual kind of thing. But ultimately it's fair enough for managers to be curious and, you know, look at how people in different industries and whatever speak. I think that's, you know, that's sort of fine. But I think it does for a lot of people, it suggests insincerity and for other people, and I think this is unfair. It suggests a little bit like ideas above your station. You know, stay in your lane. You're a football manager, you're not a kind of motivational speaker or whatever, even though there is such a clear overlap between those two things. And ultimately, like Jack says, it is just about finding ways of communicating with young people. Like, that's. That's all it is. And, you know, it's far more important that it resonates with them than it does with us.
- [32:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Is he an easier sell, Jack, when you're actually winning? As we've pointed out earlier, you know, Gareth Southgate notoriously has written two books on, you know, mindsets and things like that, but look how far he took England in tournaments. Also Mikel Arteta, you know, with the old light bulb moments. You know, Arsenal are firing at all cylinders at this moment in time. You know, obviously, if they weren't, everyone's going, why are you wasting your time in that faff?
- [33:00]
Jack Pitt Brook
Ultimately, our judgments of all of this stuff, whether it. And not just this stuff, but like, basically every. Every method that anyone in football uses, from coaching to Motivation to recruitment to tact. We look at the results and then we decide whether or not the methods are good or bad. That is a completely fundamental fact to seeing how we talk about football. This is so true. Arteta's probably the best example of this, but I think it's always true. All of this stuff about, oh, he's done these weird motivational techniques. If they win the league, then the techniques are good. If they don't win the league, then the techniques are bad. It really is as simple as that. And that is as true for motivational techniques as it is for any other aspect of the game. And like anybody who tells you that these particular methods are good independent of the results on the pitch, is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
- [33:52]
Ayo Akimolere
It's all about result, isn't it, Charlie?
- [33:54]
Charlie Ecclescher
100%. And I think it's so interesting. Like, you see this now. I was so struck recently, not surprised because it's always been the case, but Guardiola, after City were on the wrong end of some refereeing decisions against Newcastle in the League Cup. He went off on one about the refereeing, the var. Fine. I then saw a column the next day being like, this is really smart from Pep. He's. He's ramping up the mind games. Imagine if that was Arteta or any other manager saying those things. It would be. He's cracking up. He's blaming refs. Like, it's totally framed through the fact that Guardiola is the serial winner for whom everything is part of his genius and is why he wins stuff for everyone else. Even if it's Arteta who's done a very good job, but he hasn't won stuff. So he's kind of, in this binary world, a loser. His things will lead to that. And then I saw one the other day after City beat Newcastle, and Pep and the players were very emotional after winning. Imagine the celebration policing if that's another team for them. It was Pep sending a message. Pep is sending a very clear message that they mean business. And it's just like, this is kind of mad, isn't it? Like, how can it be so different? Like, I get that, you know, Pep is the best manager of all time and whatever, but I find it. I think it's extreme to think that everything some do is good, everything others do is bad. And I think Arteta's actually a really interesting example of this communication and the different audiences thing, because I've heard him characterized as this sort of David Brent character. And I get that based on the all or nothing documentary and some of the things we hear about, you know, pickpockets and all of this sort of stuff. But that's all stuff with the players. If you actually watch his press conferences, they're pretty bland, like the language, you know, he's not going in and talking in this sort of like wide eyed, misty eyed, Rocinha, Brendan Rodgers kind of way. He's talking very straight. Like he seems to recognize that the media is a very different audience to a group of young players. And especially in all or Nothing it was a very young team. And like, yeah, some of those things seem very odd to us. You know, if he was talking in a press conference about light bulbs, I think everyone would be like, what on earth are you talking about? Like, this is crazy. But it wasn't. It was a different audience. And I do know from talking to players and coaches, whatever they are, like you play so many games over the course of a season, like you've got to try stuff because you know those examples in all or nothing, probably a handful. The rest of them are probably fairly normal, you know, fairly bad. But you can't keep doing the same, saying the same message like, because the players are just going to get bored of that foreign.
- [36:38]
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- [38:14]
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- [38:49]
Athletic FC Podcast Host (Ayo Akimolere)
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [38:54]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, this brings me to my next question. Really, Jack, is that, you know, should managers be boring or clear or just less animated, maybe like a Michael Carrick? Or should they be a bit more like our Ang Postecoglou? From a journalistic point of view, surely an Ang gives you way more headlines and more to talk about than just a straight answer. That's like, yeah, we played well today, just got the basics right. Let's go on to the next one.
- [39:19]
Jack Pitt Brook
Oh yeah, all journal, all journalists want managers who give good copy, who give good answers in press conferences. I think that that is universal. And that's not to say that you would necessarily obscure your view of whether the manager was good or not. But if you're having to spend a lot of time in the company of the manager and you have to write up what they say, naturally you want them to say interesting, you want them to say interesting things. I think from the manager's point of view, it's all about generating buy in. I think that more than anything is what it comes down to. Buy in with the players and buy in with the public. And as Charlie says, there'll be different messages for different people. Like what you say in public is not what you were saying private. So effectively the manager is having to do two separate processes in parallel, right? The public one and the private one. But the end goal is always the same in both, which is to generate buy in. And obviously results are part of that. But another part of that is what you say. If you can prove to the players or to the fans that your methods are working, then they will be more willing to listen to what you have to say. So kind of the two things reinforce one another. Both the messaging and the methods go hand in hand. So that's really what they're trying to do. I think in modern management, success is so much underpinned by your ability to talk convincingly in public and in private,
- [40:41]
Ayo Akimolere
you know, clickbait or anything around that, you know, in terms of whether or not managers now in the modern era are more conscious of their brand, especially around social media. Guardiola recently spoken about Sudan, Palestine and social issues. Vincent Kompanie also, in reaction to what Jose Mourinho said after the Benfica Real Madrid match, used that platform to really speak about racism. How aware do you think managers are now of their platform and also the power that can bring on a wider societal level.
- [41:16]
Jack Pitt Brook
This is one of the interesting things about press conferences, right, is that obviously traditionally press conferences were, they were really for newspapers, right? And newspapers would write up what managers said. But now in the era of kind of social media and kind of clipped shareable videos, which obviously dominate most of the big social media platforms, I think press conferences are still as relevant as ever, right? Because if a, you know, if Guardiola, whether it's Guardiola, Arteta Klopp, whoever, if they're talking about a really big topic in a sort of, in a way in like let's say one minute clip, which can then get shared around the world, then the press conference still has as much power as it has ever had, even if it's reaching people through a different medium. And I think managers are incredibly aware of that. They're incredibly aware of how quickly their words can go around the world, you know, within seconds or even while they are still talking. And so, yeah, I absolutely think that's a huge part of it. And I think that managers are very, very, very conscious of the huge platform that gives them.
- [42:17]
Charlie Ecclescher
And you know, the fact that you see managers coming on and doing interviews on, be it on podcasts like this or be it on high performance by Jake Humphrey, you know, which is obviously a very divisive one. But you know, I think Eddie Howe's been on that, hasn't he? You know, so that they're aware of their own personal brand and how they want to be seen. You know, that's an opportunity for them to kind of talk about their ideals and all of that. And again, these are things that make a lot of people bristle and you know, don't think a manager should necessarily be doing, but of course they're gonna self promote like you know, even going on Monday Night Football, which has become this kind of, you know, everyone know, it's an unspoken thing. You know, it's if you're an out of manager, out of work manager, it's a great platform. Gary O' Neill. He really, by going on that show and by doing quite a detailed analysis of how his Wolves team had beaten Man City, that genuinely changed like public perceptions of him. And it was like, oh wow, this guy is actually tactically pretty smart. So they'll be aware of that. That, that can alter perceptions for sure.
- [43:17]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, let's leave it there, gentlemen. Really enjoyed that conversation. Jack, Charlie, thanks for joining us. Really appreciate your time and also thank you guys for following us as well. We'll catch you soon.
- [43:29]
Athletic FC Podcast Host (Ayo Akimolere)
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and J. Beal with editing by Paul Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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