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- [00:01]
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- [01:35]
Ayo Akamolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me. I am Akim Walere. Last summer was the summer of big money strikers. Think about Jocherz Isak Volta, Mada Sesko. It is it fair to say though that they haven't necessarily hit the ground running? Well, let's discuss in with us today we have the three biggest hitters in the industry. We've got Oly Kay, Mark Carey, and also Karl Anker as well. Let's start on this. Look, I'm so fascinated by strikers, I pretended to be a striker back in the day when I used to play at School for St. Thomas Aquinas. But look, you think about big money strikers coming to the Premier League, especially being from a league that's probably not comparable to the Premier League. How hard is it to hit the ground running? We'll start with you Carl.
- [02:25]
Karl Anker
Oh, it seems like it's getting increasingly more difficult. We are seeing fewer and fewer strikers turn up, play for a big team and then hit the ground running. Debut. Goal. Boom boom boom Boom, boom. And we are seeing more and more now comments of managers and fans going, he needs time to acclimatize. He needs time to get used to the Premier League. He needs time to do bing bang, bing, bang, boom. There's been a lot of commentary in the last couple of weeks seasons about the strength of the bottom half of the Premier League compared to a lot of Europe's other top five leagues. And there's also been comments from players that have left the Premier League, gone elsewhere and also said, yeah, well, in the Premier League it's this and this.
- [03:03]
Mark Carey
And this and this and this.
- [03:04]
Karl Anker
Or as Adam Hari loves to always bring up, whenever a player goes to Serie A, the comment they always say is, yeah, you know, the pace is a bit slower, but it's a lot more technical.
- [03:14]
Mark Carey
I wonder whether as well our tolerance for, maybe it's a Premier League thing, maybe it's a football thing, maybe it's a societal thing that our tolerance for or the threshold by which we maybe judge strikers and players new signings in general is a little bit shorter, whereby we need to make sure that they do hit the ground running and if they don't hit the ground running, they're a flop. And then we start to talk about them within five games as being among the worst signings in history. And it's. It's so binary and divisive. And I sometimes think we were talking about Joker Victor Jocores after the. Well, it was after the Manchester United game, wasn't it, in the first game of the season. Is he up to the Standard after barely 90 minutes that I think there's an extent to which with. We'll talk about sort of the tactical element as well, but that strikers may be in the way that the Premier League is now, that strikers maybe do need a little bit more time to settle whichever league they come from, even within the same league and to a new team. So I know that they're going to be costing a lot of money. Maybe I'm being a little bit too kind to them in certain places, but I think there is a degree to which we need to sort of wait and see. Even now we've not even had a full season.
- [04:13]
Oli
Yeah.
- [04:14]
Ayo Akamolere
Ollie, as someone who's seen the game evolve over time, especially strikers, delicately put, I'm trying my best. But if you think about strikers like Patric Duter for instance, back in the day, Ronaldo R9 in the day, I mean, was expected of that striker versus what's probably expected of a striker right now are very different, aren't they?
- [04:31]
Oli
Yeah. What was expected back in the sort of 90s 2000s really was goals. And I think that changed with the evolution towards a sort of more technical buildups through the Barcelona team, I would say of Guardiola, but also with the, you know, the other big trend of the time was the sort of gegenpressing counter pressing approach which put so much emphasis on what players did off the ball, winning the ball back. You had players like for example, Harry Kane, who was really good at both of those things and also at making goals. A rare all rounder, I would say, in a modern game. But then even as he's got older and seen the game evolve, to use the phrase you use for me, he seems to have sort of done less pressing, just let less off the ball work and become more of that sort of old fashioned. Not incredibly old fashioned, but more of a goalscorer.
- [05:25]
Karl Anker
Ali, do you think the striker's job is made more complicated now that we're in an age of lone strikers? The 4:2, 3:1 rather than 4:4:2, where you can sort of halve the responsibility in a way.
- [05:37]
Oli
But it's, I mean it's not a new thing, is it? The move away from 4, 4, 2 really happened in the 2000s. I mean it was a move towards sort of 4231. At that stage you had exceptions, but generally from that point it wasn't. It wasn't a sor. The old idea of, you know, a big one and a little one was sort of out of fashion by then. And it's interesting because the centre forward, the big traditional center forward seemed to have gone out of fashion entirely for a time, probably sort of 10, 15 years ago. Then you had the sort of false nine period with people like Firmino and you had Man City winning the league without a recognized center forward. Really in that final season where Aguero didn't play many games and they had Foden through the middle a lot and Sterling through the middle. And now it seems like the centre forwards are back in fashion in terms of something that people want to buy and want the idea of the option to have that. But I don't think. I don't know if the game has yet caught up with top teams wanting to use the centre forward in a way that would probably get the best out of centre forward. It seems like there are demands being put on a lot of these centre forwards, but there's not necessarily brilliant service for them in a time when teams have probably sort of moved away from that kind of crossing or through ball approach. It's a very different way of playing now and it's. And I don't think many of the many of those centre forwards you could say of the one signed last summer that their teams are playing in a way that would really get the best out of them.
- [07:05]
Ayo Akamolere
Okay, well let's look at the summer signings, the big money strikers that came this summer and actually compare their season so far. So we'll start with Liverpool spent over 200 million on Alexander Isak and Hugo Ekatike. We've also got Manchester United who spent money on Benjamin Sesko. 70£23.6 million. Newcastle £69.3 million on Nick Voltimado. Arsenal obviously £63.4 million on Jokers and Chelsea over £50 million on Joao Pedro. Right. From that list only Ekitike and Pedro actually are in the top 10 for Premier League goals so far this season. Both on eight goals at the moment. So let's start with Isak and Ekitike. Mark, how do you assess their season so far? Of course one of them hasn't played much football due to injury.
- [07:52]
Mark Carey
Yeah, I think we can sort of be quite quick in assessing Alexander Isak this season at least because yeah because of injury has been well sort of fitness struggles and then a long term injury means that he's not had any sort of consistency to be able to really show what he can do in a Liverpool shirt. I think we can, we could still talk about but I think it's maybe been already discussed about the, the idea of bringing in both Isak and Ekitike. From a Liverpool recruitment perspective, from Nekhateke perspective. I think he has been, has been excellent. He's really adapted to the, the demands of the the and I think his versatility as much as anything has been hugely, hugely positive. He can drop off really well, link up with some one touch play or he can actually receive the ball in a bit of space and maybe dribble forward himself. He likes to drift over to the left hand side to collect it and drive forward. He could play as a left winger feasibly. He's got that sort of modern day profile in that regard. Talking about the height and the mobility and the strength side of things. We know he's excellent in transition. That was true when he was in the Bundesliga during his time at Eintracht Frankfurt. So at the moment for Liverpool is in kind of short supply. We know that Liverpool was so strong in transition and seasons gone by actually you take Ekitike and Salah out of the team which has been the case in the previous weeks and Liverpool very blunt in transition.
- [09:12]
Karl Anker
So he had such a real sort.
- [09:14]
Mark Carey
Of threat on the counterattack as well. But then I think people underestimate how good he is in tight spaces. I mean, I don't know exactly how tall he is, but in the region of 6 foot 3, 6 foot 4. And as someone who is 6 foot.
- [09:24]
Karl Anker
4, my close control is really, really bad.
- [09:28]
Mark Carey
I'm very macro, not micro. Whereas he's got the ability to do both. He's really strong. Just when you think maybe it's because of his wiry frame, you think that you can get the ball well, you can get the ball from him and he nicks it away just at the crucial moment. He's really good with his close control and as you say so he scored 8 non penalty league goals this season. So that's not the highest per se. But per 90 minutes he's only behind Erling Haaland and looking now it's 0.57 non penalty go per 90. So I think we can comfortably say that he's been a success as a striker this season, even if Liverpool's form per se hasn't been the strongest. I think one other thing that links back to what we were saying before in terms of the profile of these strikers and we'll go through all the others, I'm sure, but all of them are very tall, imposing centre forwards and to Oli's point before, in terms of them being in vogue a little bit more. I think you have to kind of intrinsically speak about the way that football is at the moment in terms of the out of possession, the defensive side. Yes, centre backs have always been imposing, tall, strong figures, but it's gone even more down to that sort of style now. The reason I believe that they're in vogue is that a false 9 Sergio Aguero type just wouldn't work in the same way with the way that kind of the meta in football is going. So I think it's no surprise that we're seeing these profiles of players to varying degrees of success. But it seems like more than ever, to Oli's point and to the point we're all making that I don't think any of these players on the list are below 6 foot 2.
- [10:55]
Karl Anker
I was fascinated when Brian Brobbie signed for Sunderland this season in that he is as close to a at least in body type to that sort of Sergio Aguero style attacker that was very in vogue in the 90s. So we're talking 5 foot 9, 5 foot 10, built like a bull, huge, huge quads. So you know we're thinking Aguero Romario, that sort of bull in a china shop, striker that yes, sometimes played in a 4:4:2 with a big man to get the flick ons but they have largely gone and Brobbie, while he had been linked to two or three big clubs, was at Ajax, went to RB Leipzig, didn't quite work out, went back to Ajax to get his game back. I believe his then agent Mino Raiola gave a comment about how he moved to Germany too quickly and they had to work about scaling. And there was some commentary about how particularly now with strikers, especially from an agent perspective, you don't want to take them from a non top five league and then take him straight over to the Premier League because the physical jump now is just so high. So that was really interesting with Brobbie. I think Brobbie's doing quite well at Sunderland. He's definitely doing bull at a china shop and his ability to hold the ball up against defenders much bigger than him is fascinating. And Ekitike is fascinating to me. Of all the strikers on this list that we're going to talk to today, I think Ekitike's the most likely to have the strongest season. I think Ekhate is the most in air quotes, legit striker. Right now I'm more confident about Ekatike's career. I'm also going to say a lot of these players are just at the wrong club.
- [12:29]
Ayo Akamolere
You guys listen to us now. We want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill in a quick survey about you and your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com forward/survey26. Three lucky entries will win 100 pounds or $100 worth of Amazon vouchers as well. So whether you're a longtime listener or a new one, we want your feedback. Go to theathletic.com survey26 that's theathletic.com survey 26. The link is also in our episode description. Really appreciate your time.
- [13:06]
Mark Carey
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [13:12]
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- [14:04]
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- [14:52]
Mark Carey
Nice clever ball to find Miley Voltimona.
- [14:55]
Oli
Oh, what a goal that is.
- [14:57]
Mark Carey
Nick Volta marder with the deftest of touches.
- [15:01]
Ayo Akamolere
Let's go to Oli on Valtoma, then let him come in on this one. A player that actually started the season very well with Newcastle but seems to have sort of dwindled away a little bit as has Newcastle's form to be fair. Oli.
- [15:13]
Oli
Yeah, I was just looking at, I was just looking at the stats, just trying to sort of remind myself of something because I had it in mind that you know, he'd barely been a sort of first choice regular starter in the Bundesliga for six months before he, he signed for Newcastle. So big transfer fee. But like for example, Nicholas Jackson, very different player. But like Nicholas Jackson we talk about a sort of relatively small sample size in terms of the potential he'd shown and the sort of proven pedigree he'd shown in his case at Stuttgart. So up until December last season he wasn't starting regularly for Stuttgart. Up until December last season I think he'd scored three league goals in his career. So for him to come in to the Premier League to a club like Newcastle, which was sort of crying out for a hero even more. More than the sort of cliched Newcastle, love their number nines talk. You know, everything that happened with Isak, they needed a centre forward or two. He was there. He's sort of, sort of a strange, strange looking footballer in some ways unconventional looking footballer and he doesn't particularly do the things you would expect at sort of 6 foot 4 said forward to do. He's very, very good feet unlike Mark Carey. And he hit the ground running. And there was all the doubts that you hear sort of narky remarks from Bayern Munich and other people in Germany saying that how much Newcastle had overpaid for him. And he did go in and hit the ground running. But I think as the season has progressed I think he's probably found it harder. Defenders have probably sort of worked him out a little bit in terms of what he's good at, where the pockets he likes to be in the fact that he likes to come deep looking for the ball. And I would say that Newcastle with the wide players that they have, although he scored a decent number of goals, it's seven in the league, 10 in all competitions. I don't think Newcastle's wide players have. You know, it's a team that was basically built to get the best out of Alexander Isak which they did to great effect last season. And to go to Volta Marder type center forward, very unconventional type center forward is a big adjustment for them. And it's a big adjustment for him because yeah, I don't feel like Anthony Gordon, Harvey Barnes Alanga. I don't feel like they're serving him in a way that you would look at him and think oh, why hasn't he got 15 goals? I think he's done well to get the seven Premier League goals. He's got the 10 in all competitions. Because I think it's. I think this is a Newcastle team evolution and I think he has done well. But you probably would say that it's not yet clear how this team is going to evolve in a way that optimises his talent and enables him to optimise the talents elsewhere in Newcastle team. It's a strange fit really.
- [18:00]
Karl Anker
It's been really difficult for him because like you said Oli, this is post Isak. Also Callum Wilson had left Newcastle as well. So Newcastle needed two strikers. They were in very, very protracted conversations with Brentford for Johan Wisse and it very much seemed to be Wissa was going to be the Shre striker on day one who's going to hit the ground runner because he's Premier League proven. And Walter Mada would slowly adjust and possibly even play off Whisson in A two. What happened was Whisser has a very serious injury which meant he was. It only took until December and him opting out of AFCON to start playing for Newcastle. Walter Marder's had to play probably more minutes than initially expected. And because Walter Marder, as you've already said, he looks a bit weird. He's very, very slender. Ectomorph. There's a fantastic piece on the athletic from Shera shepherd on just how do you feed a player of that build and how do you get enough nutrients into a football player of that build? And I highly recommend that. A lot of bananas seems to be the answer. Not only is he tall, but he's also quite nifty and hard to get hold of. And there's also the interesting thing about Altamari is for a player who is. And again, all these strikers now are of ambiguous height. I use the old wrestling adage now they're billed at whatever, but then you have to go stand next to them. Wait a minute, you're lying about that. So he's billed at six' six, I believe. Something rather two meters tall. He might be even taller than that. For a player of that height. He spends a lot of time not in the penalty area and I think that can be a head scratcher. His combination play and his link up play is very, very good. And he might be like another player on this list, more of a 9.5. Despite his obvious physical appearance. He might be better. Even though he looks like a classic big man, he might be better playing as a little man off someone else to do some of the other penalty box operations.
- [19:50]
Mark Carey
I think that's really interesting. I think it links with what you were saying, Ollie, in terms of Newcastle knowing how best to fuel him and how best to sort of profile him. Because I think it depends on which wingers he plays with. And it was kind of the same with Isak. Isak thrived so much when he was playing with Jacob Murphy, who could be that, that same side, what I like to call the same sided winger, where he's a right footed player on the right hand side such that when the ball arrived to him he got it out of his feet, played it into Isak in a sort of an old school and they linked up so incredibly well for many seasons, but specifically that season last season. And Voltimar dealt really well with some of the crosses that Murphy was playing in and scored off a couple of them already this season. And recently Eddie Howe has gone to more Barnes and Gordon. And like any striker, if you're making a run, maybe having to check, make a run again because you're not entirely sure when the ball's coming in. I think that can be quite tricky sometimes. But then I think it's about getting Barnes and Gordon into more central areas. And they themselves can be the one to score as well. And Volta material be the ones to sort of suffer from a goal scoring perspective, but still is contributing to the wider attack. So I wonder. I agree with Oli that he's maybe been found out a little bit, but then I think it's having those profiles together, certain profiles that work well together. I think he kind of makes more reliable runs when Murphy is in the team or when he has maybe a bit more of a trust of when the cross is going to come in. He can make the run and be certain that he's going to get on the end of it.
- [21:13]
Oli
I was just looking at the names down the list and it's basically Newcastle's shopping list for the summer. And Voltimado was. Was somewhere down that, wasn't it. Obviously they wanted Isak, they wanted to keep Isak, they wanted to sign Ekatike, they wanted to sign Liam De Lapp, they wanted to sign Sesko Voltimada. Was. Was such a departure, not just in terms of going for somebody else, but going for a completely different style. So it's not as if this Newcastle team has been built to get the best out of him. And I think that shows. And I think in the circumstances he. In terms of his individual contribution, I think it's been admirable, really, because I think he could have. A lesser player or a lesser person might have really struggled in that situation.
- [21:57]
Ayo Akamolere
Yeah. Okay, let's move on. And I feel like one of those content creators. I'm going to talk about Victor Gjokares now. So he's going to come on now, guys. Be nice, be nice. Go on, Mark, talk to me. Is it more to do with the service or is he just struggling to adapt to the level of the Premier League?
- [22:15]
Mark Carey
At the risk of swerving the question, I think it's a bit of both, bit of everything. Do you think that to be true? I think that it speaks to everything we said before Karl mentioned it really well. There's a massive adaptation from any league outside of the top five European leagues. He was scoring for fun in Portugal, but the question before he even kicked a ball in the Premier League was can he adapt and adapt quickly? The answer is that he hasn't adapted quickly. But I still think again, time will tell as to whether he will sort of be a bit more intelligent in his runs. I think that the stylistic profile of the league as well as the strength of the league, the stylistic profile of the league, especially this season, Arsenal are playing against and have been for many Seasons, by the way. So many low blocks that it's not Jacarez's game to be the one to necessarily be the fox in the box. He can do that. But if you look back at some of the goals he scored last season for Sporting, he had so much space and he was able to kind of take his time or be that transitional player to run into the Channel, bully a player and then sort of cut in on either his right or left foot and score. He's not able to do that quite as much. And I think it's worth saying about the Champions League here as well, of the contrast you think about the goal that he scored against Inter Milan. Maybe not quite sort of the type of goal that I'm mentioning there, but there was more space for him because in the Champions League, teams are more likely to go toe to toe. The likes of Arsenal and other dominant teams can then come out on top because they do have the stronger profile. And the strikers themselves can often be the ones to get a bit more space and score the goals that they want score. It's a strength of the Premier League that they're stopping these strikers from scoring those goals. So all of those caveats notwithstanding, I do think there's an extent to which, and I did a piece on this with Art De Roche, our Arsenal writer, that he's sometimes not making the runs that are kind of instructive to his teammates, and it sounds a bit cliche, but sometimes you think if you make that run, you make the decision for that play, they have to play that ball because it's such a dangerous run, either in behind in the channel, whatever it may be. And sometimes he kind of half heartedly makes the run or doesn't make the run at all, or points to maybe where the run should be made, that he's going to do it and he's winding up to do it, and by which point the centre back knows he's going to run there and you can block off the space. So I think he needs to be a bit cute, a bit more clever, a bit more intelligent with those runs that he makes, because he's got the physical profile. Everything we spoke about before, he's got the physical profile, he knows where the goal is. We've seen that in previous seasons, gone by. A bit more adaptation from him, a bit more adaptation from his teammates, which I suppose speaks to your point before then, that trust can be built on both sides and then maybe he'll sort of improve from there. I think there is an element to which this could be comparable to, if he's not careful, to a Darwin Nunez at Liverpool, where he does have that physical profile, is really, really strong in the transitional moments, but maybe just isn't micro enough, is a little bit too macro. And then a team who's pushing for the League title maybe doesn't trust him enough in the long term. But I think that's where you have to answer it in the long term and maybe give him a little bit longer before we make that conclusion.
- [25:16]
Ayo Akamolere
Karl, I'm just thinking before we move on to Cesko very quickly, and you mentioned it, perhaps some of these strikers that we're talking about are probably not in the right team. If we look at Arsenal and we look at all the strikers we're mentioning here, Isak Ekatica, Sesko Valtomada, Pedro. Who out of that list should Arsenal technically have bought if it doesn't work out for Djokeres?
- [25:37]
Karl Anker
Alexander Isak is spiritually an Arsenal player. Alexander Isak should be wearing the number 14 for Arsenal. Nesmo. We can talk about money, we can talk about negotiations, but you put all those gentlemen in a row like you're playing in the playground and you put an Arsenal manager in front, you go, that lad Isaac, I want him Ekatike, he should be at Man United, quite frankly. We know Benjamin Saska was on Newcastle shortlist as well. Everyone was trying to interview Liam Delap because he had that 30 million release clause. But I think Jockers is at Arsenal because Arsenal didn't believe Alexander a deal for Isak was possible. And obviously things change throughout the window. And I don't want to say buyer's remorse, I don't want to say anything else, but Isak will probably likely be a success for Liverpool, but he should be an Arsenal player. Everything about him just screams Arsenal. And I mean that as a compliment. He just thrives in that transition. He has the Tyrion refinish down pat. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's an Arsenal player. I look at Hugo Ekatike and I'm like, that's a United player on the intangibles, by the way. Ekatike. Very, very fun Instagram dump he did recently. And one of the, I think it's sliced seven out of and he's going, every hero has a weakness. And it's Samson, hair cut off, Achilles and Achilles has been shot in his ankle. And then he goes, me and his weaknesses face a low block. So you know, he's self aware as well. Which again, I'm like, you're a United.
- [26:59]
Ayo Akamolere
Player, you like that.
- [27:00]
Oli
I like that.
- [27:01]
Ayo Akamolere
Sesko, come on.
- [27:02]
Karl Anker
I mean, the interesting thing for me was I went to, I was at the Emirates on Sunday and Victor Yokares and Sesko were on both of those team shortlists in the summer. Arsenal had to look at Sesko, United had to look at Jokers. And then both those players on the bench, you're going, oh, right. Things change in Premier League football ever so quickly. Sesko for me, is doing okay. I'd say I'm giving him a 6.5 out of 10 for his season so far. His goal rate is pretty good. There's a piece on the Athletic I did just towards the end of Darren Fletcher's caretaker stint as Manchester United coach. And his shot map, very nice. He's shooting often enough. Most recent couple of games, he's averaged about 4, 4 shots in a game. Good.
- [27:41]
Mark Carey
That's what I want.
- [27:42]
Karl Anker
I want you to shoot four times, especially on a big team. He's shooting from good areas. So again, you look at one of the things Mark and I always do when we get a shot map up is the first thing we always look at, especially for young players, are, are they taking loads of shots from outside the box? Because we go, you got to stop doing that and try and work your way into the six yard box. And then we also look at where are the big clusters from? Because that will indicate if there's an area in around the box where a striker really likes to shoot from.
- [28:06]
Commercial Announcer
From.
- [28:07]
Karl Anker
So in the 2019, 2020 season, there was a bit where I looked at Tammy Abraham's shot map for Chelsea and he just had a little row of dots, like to the right of the penalty spot. I went, ooh, you have a particular area, you know how to attack well. Or indeed this season. I think everyone made a lot of jokes about Dominic Calvert Lewin's shot map for Leeds because it was just all in a row, because Dominic Calvert Lewin knows exactly where he needs to be if he wants to score a goal because that's his zone. So Sesko shotmap is good. Not too many shots from outside the box. A lot of shots not in the six yard box, but in the second six yard box. There's a great piece from Jacob Whiteley about the second six yard box, which is this gap between the penalty spot and the six yard box that Alan Shearer and Gary Lineker have spoken loads about on Match Today. Like this is where you get at least 10 of your goals in a season. The problem I'm having with Cesko and this Is problem with an asterisk is he's too nice. All right? And maybe this is me getting a little bit too old and I'm getting grays in my beard and I can't run anymore. So I now get annoyed when I see people who can run aren't doing it properly. But Cesko, for a striker who is 6 foot 5 and has the pace to outstrip most defenders in the Premier League, he doesn't play football like he's trying to hurt the ball when he kicks it, and he can. There are lots of shots he's having where they're quite soft and guided towards the corner and you go, no, no, no. Put your foot through it.
- [29:25]
Oli
Like, that's really interesting because, I mean, looking at this list, most of these guys look like nice, well behaved players on the Premier League. On a pitch, they're not. You know, there's not a Diego Costa amongst this. I mean, Diego Costa may be an extreme example, but they are very nice. They're not massively physical in terms of putting themselves about. So when Liam delap came on, when he came on as something, it was at Man City and he was really putting himself about. And I thought, wow, that's more like it. He had a really good impact as a Serb in that game. Rasmus Hojlund seemed to have a lot of the attributes that would make you think, there's definitely a player in there, there's definitely a centre forward in that. He signed for Manchester United at 20, I think, and couldn't hit a barn d' or for the first few months he was there. Then went through his run of. I think he scored eight goals and eight games sort of in the second half of that season, ended up with 10 Premier League goals. His first season as a 20, 21 year old, that seemed good. And he just didn't kick on. And he never seemed to have. I mean, obviously last season was difficult, but at Manchester United, change of manager, change of system, but he. He didn't really show the sort of pure aggression and pure hunger. I didn't think he looked. He looks a little bit daunted, I guess. At Man United.
- [30:41]
Ayo Akamolere
Let's move on. Let's have. Let's have a little quiz, a little palate cleanse as we're talking strikers. And this is the question, gents, can you name the strikers with the most goals scored in their debut Premier League season? I want the five here, okay? So strikers with the most goals scored in their debut Premier League season? We're looking at the top five. So I mean, one's quite easy, I think.
- [31:05]
Mark Carey
Fernando Torres for Liverpool in 2007. 8.
- [31:10]
Oli
Yes.
- [31:10]
Ayo Akamolere
Do you know how many goals do you remember?
- [31:12]
Mark Carey
Oh, that'd be tough. 19.
- [31:13]
Ayo Akamolere
Okay. 5.
- [31:13]
Karl Anker
No, no, you got 33.
- [31:15]
Ayo Akamolere
24, actually. 24. 2007.
- [31:18]
Karl Anker
I mean, the obvious one is Erlan Haaland.
- [31:20]
Ayo Akamolere
Yes, of course. We'll go with Aguero.
- [31:23]
Oli
Ferdestroy.
- [31:25]
Ayo Akamolere
Aguero. Yes. Joint fifth. Yes. With Rude Van Nistro. Well done, Ollie.
- [31:29]
Mark Carey
Nice one.
- [31:29]
Ayo Akamolere
Very good.
- [31:30]
Mark Carey
One is maybe on a technicality. I could be wrong. Would Kevin Phillips be one?
- [31:33]
Karl Anker
Because it was coming up from Knowledge, Knowledge, Knowledge.
- [31:38]
Oli
But surely Andy Cole would be more than Kevin Phillips.
- [31:40]
Karl Anker
Oh, Ollie. Clean Sweep. Come on, Ollie.
- [31:44]
Ayo Akamolere
Come on, Ollie. You rescued it there. Everyone was looking in the air. Ollie came in with vintage. I love it.
- [31:50]
Oli
I wouldn't have said Kevin Phillips, that's for sure.
- [31:59]
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Ayo Akamolere
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- [33:33]
Mark Carey
Foreign. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast.
- [33:38]
Ayo Akamolere
With Ayo Akamolere now we can't talk strikers without mentioning the goal scoring machine that is Erling haaland. He has 20 goals in 23 games so far this season. Yet some people argue that Manchester City are too reliant on him, therefore making them a worse team because of it. Now Haaland has won the league twice and finished top goal scorer twice as well. But the season before he came, City scored more goals, got more points and conceded fewer goals. So based on that, do we think that Haaland has made them a worse team? Gents?
- [34:14]
Oli
No, I understand the premise of the question. I don't think City are as good a team as they were two or three, four seasons ago. But that's because really good players have got older and moved on and been replaced by less good players. And I would question some of the of direction that Guardiola has taken in terms of moving away from the traditional strengths of a Guardiola team. But I would say yeah, I understand there are games, there are games where you look at City and you think, God, he's offering nothing outplay. In fact, to be honest, that isn't really the case this season. I'd say he's been a much, become much more of an all round centre forward this season rather than just this incredible goal scoring machine. The concern is that, that and I don't think it reflects on. I think the question was more relevant I would say last season when perhaps some other things, you know, first half of last season where some other things were working and Haaland was kind of a little bit up and down. But lately, I mean you look at City and Haaland at times has been, has often been the difference. And a concern I would say is that he started the season so well in terms of the number of goals he scored. And it does seem to be dried up a bit. And it's when we were talking about Esac and Valdemar and the Newcastle conundrum earlier where you've got different players, you know, different wide players who do different things and at City there's this sort of revolving cast. Is it Foden? Is it Turkey? Is it Semenyo? Is it Doku? And I would back Haaland to score from almost any type of service. But it must be less than easy when you. When there's such a sort of revolving cast of the players outside of him. So I've got some sympathy with Haaland this season. He started a season like House on Fire scoring so many goals and lately he just hasn't looked like a threat, but I'd say City have just been a very curious team this season and have become a curious team rather than this. What I always feel. Although half of our listeners probably say that City were incredibly boring, I think City have been this incredible, attacking, exciting team until perhaps the last two seasons when the goals have dried up and they've just become so reliant on Haaland. I'm confused when I look at City and what they're meant to be at the moment, which is not something I ever imagined saying about a Pep Guardiola team. But I feel like they're this sort of hybrid team of not being able to do the things that they used to be brilliant at and trying to do the things that. That Bournemouth and Brighton are good at on Haaland. When we were talking about all these sort of tall players and how that seems to be the new blueprint for a center forward these days, I just wondered how much of that is just a reaction to looking at Harland saying, that is what we need. That's the future. And then all these sort of pale imitations, you know, Chocares, Loads of goals, loads of goals in Portugal. Tall, powerful looks looks the part. Sesko is clearly a real talent, but I just wonder whether teams just got it in their head that they want to find this Erling Haaland and that really, that player doesn't exist outside of Erling Island. Yeah.
- [37:34]
Ayo Akamolere
If you stop Haaland, do you stop Manchester City, Mark? Because, you know, you look at the proportion of goals scored by Haaland for Manchester City is 43.2%. I mean, that's heavily skewed towards the strike. Obviously they do create and score goals in various areas, but that's a huge percentage. The other team that scores most from their striker is Brentford with Thiago, who we're going to talk about in just a sec as well.
- [37:57]
Mark Carey
I think there is a degree to which that is true. I think the recent game that Manchester City played against Manchester United, where United centre backs did stop Haaland really, really well and did stifle Manchester City. I think when someone's that good that they don't need many opportunities, it can just be one chance, one goal. I think that the best maybe way to stop things is to stop things at sour in the first instance, which in itself is very difficult when you're playing against Manchester City, whereby if you just basically cut out the service altogether, then he doesn't get a touch and then you sort of try and reduce the game. Down to kind of low probability in terms of that sort of defensive side of it. But I think just going back to the contrast of Haaland coming into the Premier League and he's absolutely lit the League of light, obviously from a goal scoring perspective that's not withstanding. I think the fact that you sort of compare things with seasons gone by with Manchester City is the fact that it was such a huge contrast that we're basically playing midfielders as their striker as well and essentially being able to have that kind of false nine and having such a degree of control. I mean, Pep Guardiola said before, I think that taking it to hyperbole, but that he'd have 11 midfielders that he'd name if he had the option to. And I think it was because they were so successful. And yes, in his first season they did win the treble with Haaland, but it was so successful in terms of having, yes, they had strikers as well, but having more of a false nine and having more kind of of control in central areas. And then when Haaland comes in, you don't necessarily have that extra man who's going to drop in quite as well because that's not his role, that's not his remit. He's there to stretch the defence and score goals. That it was a contrast in style in the first instance. It's a difficult one to say that. Are they a better or worse team with or without Haaland? In general, I agree with Olein to a certain extent. I think they have adapted in terms of how direct they are. One of his key strengths at Dortmund was that he was so good in transition, like we were talking about Joker, as before, he's also very good at scoring all different kinds of goals. But actually I think Manchester City and Pep Guardiol telegraphed this midway through last season that he needs to be a little bit more like a Brighton and a Bournemouth, as you say, Oli. And they have been far more kind of direct and counter attacking in their output. I think they've scored more goals from fast breaks this season than any of the previous five seasons. And I don't have that exact stat to hand. But is there or thereabouts in terms of just how more transitional they are? Which also plays to his strengths as well, even though that comes at the risk of maybe greater control in midfield where they are getting a little bit caught out at times. Times.
- [40:19]
Ayo Akamolere
Igor Thiago, gents, can we finish on this one then? Thiago is outperforming many of the names We've already spoken about today, 16 Premier League goals, breaking the record for most goals by Brazilian player in a single season. Now, Brentford signed him in 2024 from Club Bruges for an initial £29 million. Is that proof that it's not the money that guarantees cost, but the right fit with the right club?
- [40:46]
Mark Carey
Absolutely.
- [40:47]
Karl Anker
Brentford know who they are. They know what they are in the league. They know they're most dangerous on the attacking transition and on set pieces. So there's all this talk about the secession plan and oh, how, how do Brentford scout properly and how do Brentford do this? Because Brentford know the exact thing they need to plug in to that team in order to get the most goals. If you have a team like Brentford, which will most likely generate their attacking chances on the transition, they need someone who's quick in transition, they need someone who's strong, could hold the ball up and also is willing to shoot quite often. Now, the difficulty there is Arsenal, Manchester United, Newcastle. Liverpool cannot do that in the higher you go up the league, you get more responsibilities and more pressure and more expectation in that. I think Igo Thiago is a very good football player. But the moment you put into Liverpool, you have the same problem that Ekatike is having, which is break down a low block or the problem that Isak is having at Liverpool when he was a fit, which was break down a low block. Because you immediately go from playing the lion's share of your matches in the Premier League with 40% possession and maybe an extra 20 yards to run in behind the defense to, oh God, I've now got a back four, maybe even a back five for the majority of your matches. The more money you spend, the greater the expectation, the greater your talent base might be. I think if you put Benjamin Seshko or Ekatike or any of these players in Brentford, they could get 16 goals if possible. They'd also have the thing of if they were that good, they halfway through a season, the opposition scouts go double up on him, take away his strongest weapon, because that's the difference of being a big team versus being a small team. I think Joker is in a more transitional team like Brentford could do something. One of the problems is not only that the Arsenal squad is constantly playing deep defenses, but also Mikel Arteta right now has built a team that when they attack, it's not about attacking transitions in the same way that other teams are. Jokarez to me looks way more dangerous when Arsenal are one goal up because then the opposition team has to go chase for an equalizer and then there's a little bit more space there. So Brentford are benefiting from superb scaling which we know their recruitment team is very, very good. A very, very clear sense of who they are and what sort of players would be complementary to the profiles they already have pre existing. They also have the idea that you can buy a player in 2024 and they don't need to turn up for a little bit. You can put them away, you can put them on the shelf, you can send them online, you can do something else. Whereas let's say Manchester United bought Shashko and then they loaned him back to RB Leipzig for a season. How many times in that press conference could you imagine in January the manager being asked when are you bringing him back? When you bringing him back? When you bring him back. When you bring him back, you just. It's less time, it's less space, it's less oxygen that the striker needs to thrive. When you're a top six club.
- [43:29]
Mark Carey
I was going to say because Thiago, he came in last summer but he had a long term injury. But I remember Keith Andrews saying that he made sure that he had time to not only settle in in the country, the Premier League, etc. But I think he included in some sort of tactical sides of the game to make sure that he understood what the expectations were of him. So the idea that he's maybe hit the ground running this season isn't by coincidence, it's by design. I think what Karl said as well about the idea of them knowing who they are in terms of Brentford, they also know where they are in the football food chain a little bit as well. So they can afford to, with all the amazing recruitment that they have have, they can afford to go into more lesser shopped leagues if you like, compared to all of the top six leagues, maybe take a little bit of a more of a risk knowing that they've got the data to back it up. And then the top six, which is proven already correct and has happened quite often, they don't need to take that risk because if they have a really good season at Brentford or a couple of good seasons at Brentford, they've just got enough money to just slap £100 million and just say, okay, well we'll take them now you've done all of the hard work, you've shown to us that they can adapt to the Premier League now we'll have them, thank you very much. Whereas Brentford kind of know where they stand in the football food chain. They can take those risks sell on for a profit but then go and do it again and carry on sort of with that model. So it's no coincidence that they've had such a good sort of consistent production line because they know where they are in the football food chain.
- [44:45]
Ayo Akamolere
I really enjoyed that discussion guys, as always. Ollie, Carl, Mark, I really appreciate your time and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.
- [44:56]
Mark Carey
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Adey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company.
- [45:20]
Ayo Akamolere
Production.
- [45:33]
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