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- [00:00]
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- [01:38]
Kev Hatchard
The Athletic FC.
- [01:42]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. In a battle of two of Europe's heavyweights, it was Arsenal who came out on top. So how much damage does a first defeat of the season do to Vincent Kompany's buying? Alright, in with us today we've got our German football writer Sepp Stafford.
- [02:01]
Sepp Stafford
Blo.
- [02:02]
Ayo Akimolere
We've also got Bundesliga commentator Kev Hatchard as well. Right, Arsenal 31 victors at the Emirates. Seb, you wrote about the impact Vincent Kompany has had on Bayern. They went 18 games unbeaten ahead of this visit to the Emirates. Is it a setback them getting beaten at the Emirates in the Champions League because they're still third in the league phase?
- [02:22]
Sepp Stafford
Yeah, I think setback is quite a strong word because 17 wins and one draw in that unbeaten sequence and I think for 45 minutes, maybe 50 minutes is a really good game. It's a really close game, certainly probably the closest I've seen anyone get to Arsenal this season and then a couple of individual mistakes. So that's probably how I'd categorize it by and let down, really, by day. IPAmerico's slightly misplaced pass out of defence, which is a great shame because Ibn Khanu has been absolutely sensational for a year. He's been by far and away Bayern's best defender, so just really unlucky. And then the Manuel Neuen moment, which I don't know. I'm not sure if Kevin will agree with me on this, but it feels like it's been coming. Neues had a couple of ropey moments from set pieces before the international break and just after it. Bayern have conceded four goals from set pieces in their last two Bundesliga games, which is kind of alarming. So to see Arsenal examine fiercely from those set pieces is not a surprise. So, setback? No. A bit annoying, I think. And also it left me with. We were talking about this before we started recording. It left me with a kind of a curiosity about what this game looks like once Jamal Murciala and Alfonso Davis get back. Chances are these teams see each other again in the spring when the Champions League knockout stages start for real. So let's see. Let's see what happens.
- [03:38]
Kev Hatchard
I think it's really interesting. The narrative that will come out of this, I think, is that Bayern are well short of Arsenal. I don't see it that way, necessarily. If you listen to the way that Declan Rice talked about Bayern after the game, he said that Arsenal mentally had to do so much work just to live with them, because of the rotations, because of the fluidity of the. Of the system, because of the quality of the players. But what it did tell us is that Arsenal are live contenders to win the Champions League. Definitely they have the best defense, I believe, in world football. And that's not just about the centre backs, that's about the system. Because you have to give Arteta immense credit for the way that he has drilled them to work without the ball. The rest defense, as we call it, the position they're in when they lose the ball is exceptional. They're very, very rarely sliced open, which shows you how good Bayern are. Because the goal that Bayern scored is an incredibly difficult thing to do. But you're talking about an inch perfect ball from Josua Kimmich. And Seb will know. How many hundreds of times have we seen that ball from Kimmich, but it's dropped in perfectly over the top. The technique on Gnabry's cross is outrageous. To hit that on the run, first time volley. And then Karl. Brilliant finish for a 17 year old. I mean, just tremendous, really. So that's what it tells us, that Arsenal are probably the gold standard right now, certainly defensively and those set plays. I think Bayern do have an issue at set plays, but let's not forget this is the best set piece team around. Why are they the best set piece team around? We could talk about design, we could talk about movement. It's the delivery. If you've got Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka playing in, that quality of set piece every single time is relentless. And that series of set pieces they had at the start of the second half set the tone and Bayern just couldn't get out. So I think Kompany goes away with some lessons. I think he goes away thinking physically, it was difficult for us, especially in that second half. How do we match the power of a team like Arsenal? But I don't think they'll be panicking because they went to Paris and they beat the European champions.
- [05:46]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, let's hear from Declan Rice speaking with UK broadcaster TNT Sport.
- [05:50]
Sepp Stafford
I think if you look at Bayern Munich this season, they've been the best team in Europe and the games they've won tell you that. So we knew tonight what type of game we was in for probably the toughest game tactically we've played all season, to be honest with you. The way they move, the way they drag you around, it takes a lot of communication and a lot of thinking.
- [06:06]
Ayo Akimolere
That was Declan Rice talking about Bayern Munich and Kev's just sort of alluded to it before that in terms of what Kompany might learn from this Seb. But, you know, we've done a lot of analysis on Bayern this season on another program called the Week in Football, and we spoke about their collective dominance. What lessons do you think Kompany will take from that in terms of how. I guess that collective dominance was slightly decimated by Arsenal.
- [06:30]
Sepp Stafford
Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer. I think I'd start with a point Kev touched on in his previous answer, which is the physical. Now, if you look at the running statistics from the Bundesliga, I think at the moment, actually TSG Hoffenheim are top of the list in every category. Collective distance, run, intensity, sprints, those kind of things. But Bayern are a very, very close second or third, which is really interesting because there's a new development on the Company and I think that kind of the basis of a lot of their dominance, especially in the Bundesliga, is that they just able to Overpower teams. And that's the basis by which you know their individual quality which far exceeds many of the opposition they face. That's from where it flourishes. I don't think you can dominate a team like Arsenal at the moment just because. A couple of reasons. Physically they're so impressive, their rest defence is so good, so you don't have the same kind of opportunities to break off them. But also, unless your pressing is extremely good in the defensive third, you're not going to subdue them. I think you have to have a kind of a gear which just collapses behind the ball now, particularly last night, because I think Bayern's best off the ball player as Luis Diaz in terms of what he gives to that high press and how he, for instance, how he was able to disrupt PSG in the Parc des Princes. I know he ended up getting sent off at the end of the first half, but if you look at the chaos and the kind of how well he unsettled that mouquinhos in that first half to take him away from that game, I don't think you can kind of play in quite the same way. And I was watching kind of Kane Gnabry, Leonard Karl trying to chase the ball a little bit too much in the Arsenal third last night. And I think it was a little bit of a mist, an easy one to make because Bayern don't face that kind of opposition very often. And also I don't think beyond Arsenal, I don't think there is a team that can compete with Bayern at the moment. If you see what they did to psg, we've mentioned that Liverpool are not. I mean, we'll get to Liverpool but that's. They're not a contender. As things stand, I think Real Madrid are not quite where they are. Barcelona got absolutely handled by Chelsea on Tuesday night. I think it's kind of those two at the top of the tree at the moment, but I think the distance between them is quite great still, even if they all wanted to, I think.
- [08:30]
Kev Hatchard
There was a really important tactical point in there about the press, because what Arsenal did that was quite clever. And again, you have to give Arteta credit for this, for not being slavish to. One idea was they played long, they had Mourinho as a target and they played long. And you cannot win the ball high up the pitch if the ball isn't there. And that's what they were prepared to do. So yes, I thought Zubimendi was wonderful. I thought he constantly gave David Raya an option and he Allows Declan Rice to go on those galloping runs through midfield and really get the best out of Declan Rice. And Zubimendi's been a terrific signing for them already. I think I want to bring this.
- [09:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Back to Kompany because I'm thinking of. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but just from the outside looking in in terms of the identity he's brought to this current Bayern squad, I personally feel since Pep Guardiola left, I think Bayern have been struggling to find some sort of rhythm and identity. I'm thinking about Ancelotti, I'm thinking about Nagelsmann, I'm thinking about Kovac, I'm thinking about the Tuchel experiment. Do we feel that there is some unity here in terms of an ideology, at least, that we're seeing from Vincent Kompany and a newer style of Bayern through his lens?
- [09:43]
Kev Hatchard
Kev, I've always said that I'd have liked to have seen Nagelsmann given more time, and I think he ended up being a sacrificial lamb for those above him, which didn't work for those above him in the. Because they got the boot later anyway. And I do think Nagelsmann could have been a big success at Bayern if he'd had that time. What Kompany has that Nagelsmann didn't have, although Nagelsmann, I think, is a brilliant communicator and I think he's a really good man manager, but Kompany has the gravitas of a top player. And I do think that makes a difference, because these. These guys at Bayern do respect that cv, do respect his experiences. You listen to Upper Mecano and the way the company has explained all of these little nuances. He'll come into my office, I've got something to show you, and he'll show him all of these kind of bits of footage. I think Seb's right. I think it was a real shame, actually, that Upamecano did make a mistake against Arsenal, because what you get, certainly the narrative I find in England is, oh, he's too error prone, he's no good. Upper Meccano, he's a liability. But the guys who watch him all the time know that he has been on that upward curve. So that was a bit of a shame. But I think he's got that gravitas. I think he knows how to manage a group. I think there was a fundamental misunderstanding of Bayern's thought process when they brought him in. Again, you know, certainly in English media, this was the case and I'm sure elsewhere as well. But everybody looked at the fact that Burnley had gone down under him and they said, well, how can he get Burnley relegated and then get the Bayern job? But actually what they were looking for, I think, was a little bridge to the Guardiola era, because Guardiola was still revered at Bayern and obviously Kompany played for him. There are similarities in the football that Kompany wants to play, so I think that was part of it. You've got a guy who speaks German and speaks multiple languages, very, very smart, and that has been a big plus as well. And I think what Kompany's showing he's quite good at, which perhaps his predecessor, Thomas Tuchel is not so good at, is managing up as well as down. And I think that Bayern, that is hugely important. So he wants to be involved in lots of things, but I think he understands Sebro. A really, really good piece about this. He has a history of wanting to be aware of different departments involved in different departments, but he doesn't overreach. And I think certainly he doesn't at the moment. And I think a buy in, that's very important.
- [12:07]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, we both laughed. Seb, when he talks about Tuchel's managing upwards. And I guess it does bring me to my next question, really, in terms of how company has managed to balance the politics of being, you know, a buying manager with what's going on upstairs as well. How is he connecting those dots?
- [12:25]
Sepp Stafford
Well, the first thing, he doesn't play the politics, I don't think. And one of the things that the club hierarchy have liked about him is that he's very differential. He behaves as a kind of. As a component within the system. I remember very early on, I was in Asia for their preseason friendly against Tottenham in Seoul, and he was asked a question by some members of the local Bavarian in media about transfer policy. Now, remember that Thomas Tuchel has spent the last 18 months grumbling about the lack of a holding 6 and complaining about transfer policy and also publicly describing some of his squad's weaknesses to the press. Right. And company just turned around and go, you need to speak to Christoph Freund and Max Ebel about that. That's their job. And he's played that straight back extremely well. And what's interesting is a couple of weeks before Thomas Muller left the club in the summer, he was asked about Kompany and he said, you know, not really since Guardiola has the squad been as harmonious and as together. Not even under Hansi Flip with whom they obviously they want to treble because there's always been a situation where a Bayern head coach has been having friction somewhere, whether it's with a player, senior member of the squad or whether it's with a senior member of management or a club elder. So for instance, the feud between Tuchel and early Hunnes is still going on now. It's still got life. And Hunnes was asked, he was at a club event about 10 days ago and he was asked about what he thinks of the team and he was talking about how much he enjoyed the way that Bayern were playing. And he also said one of the great things that Kompany had done and he just had dinner with Kompany. He just said it means that you lot pointing at the journalist he was speaking to. You actually have to find your own stories now. You're not just going to get given them. And it was just obviously he said this with an eye on Tukel and his communication and his habit of airing his dirty laundry in press conferences. But this is the nub of it. The company is not someone that engages with newspapers. He doesn't give interviews. He thinks it's a waste of time. He thinks it's just time spent away from the training pitch. So he's not going to give one on one interviews. He's not going to call controversy. He's not going to kind of wage internal battles in public through the media. And that is the way to play it at Bayern. Like, you know, yes, I know the history is full of strongmen and people that have kind of come to define the club, but I think they belong in a different era and I think now kind of when you have so much ego and so much status in different departments, you can't do that. You can't do that. Not a Bayern. It's just too big a club.
- [14:57]
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- [17:28]
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- [18:02]
Sepp Stafford
Kimmich, that's towards Gnabry.
- [18:05]
Kev Hatchard
It's a good ball as well. It's in there. Now to Karl, it's 1 1. Well, how about that for a goal?
- [18:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, let's move on because it ultimately may not have led to much, but Bayern did become the first side to score against Arsenal in the Champions League this season. We have to talk about Lennart Kahl, gents. He was the player who got the goal. I mean, for 17 years old. What a season he's having already. I think four goals in all competitions so far, two assists. Are Bayern fans licking their lips at this kid, Kev?
- [18:32]
Kev Hatchard
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But he's remarkable and they've been excited about him for a while since they brought him into the club. He'd had a spell at Eintracht Frankfurt earlier in his youth career. I think they're really excited about him and they should be. Alexander Pavlovich, which is hilarious because he's in his early 20s, was talking as if he was some grandfather figure and he was saying that, he was saying. He called him the K. He called him the kid. But the point they made about him was that he's never seen a player at that age with that self confidence. And I think that's what really comes through about him from the get go. In this game against Arsenal, he wanted the ball and he was quite happy to kind of dance his way through the press and look for spaces. And that's what you're always looking for. You're always looking especially at buy anything. You're looking for a player that's willing to take the responsibility, a player who isn't going to hide, a player that's constantly going to be involved. Michael Balak is his agent and some of that confidence, I would suggest, has rubbed off on Lennat Gar. Definitely.
- [19:30]
Ayo Akimolere
Does he have the same arrogance, though?
- [19:32]
Kev Hatchard
Well, arrogance is a fun. I was thinking about this this week, actually, because arrogance is a funny thing. I think it can be really healthy. I think if you really back yourself, it can be really, really healthy and even in a young player. And I kind of think we'll probably talk about him later. But you think about the great teenagers we've got in the game right now and you look at a guy like. You look at a guy like Estevao, the thing that links them all is they really rate themselves in a good way. In a good way, because you have to, because you will sink at this level. You will sink. Because I think there's so much information these kids are given now in terms of what they have to do with. With the ball, without the ball. It isn't just. Just go and express yourself, just go and enjoy it. Play. That's not a thing now at this level, you have to be able to. To assimilate so much information. So I'm impressed by what I've seen so far. And he's part of a unit that. And again, this ties into Company, the system they play where there are constant movements, switches, rotations. That's a hard thing to do. And he looks like he's played it for a long, long time. And that's on Company because he's able to get his ideas across in a way that's, you know, bite size and accessible, but it's also on the player as well. So this is really important for Bayern because that link with the Bayern campus, which they've invested in heavily, that's got to be a pipeline that keeps on producing players. Because if it isn't, that becomes then a kind of not existential crisis, but it becomes a big thing, I think, for Bayern and their fans. And you had Thomas Muller, who was a club icon, who obviously came through the youth system, but I think there has been a gap. They've bussed people in from elsewhere, but Kimmich's not one of theirs, but Karl is, Pavlovic is. So these guys who've got this identification with the club, I think are going to be really important in the years to come.
- [21:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I think you're spot on. But also this, what I would say a bit of a young core emerging from Pavlovic to Karl to also even Bischkov, who's come in from Hoffenheim. Seb, you know, with the fact that Muller's left Musiala injured, missing out on Wirt, I mean, this is a nice little jigsaw puzzle that that company has to solve, but seems to be coming. Seems to be bearing fruit, I should say.
- [21:54]
Sepp Stafford
Yeah, I think, because what you're looking at potentially is a group of players that can get older together and that can create a very, very stable side. I'm a huge Tom Bischoff fan. I think he's a really, really flexible midfielder, lovely left foot, likes a tackle as well, which you don't often say about playmaking midfielders. Wisdom. Mike, he hasn't quite broken through for real, but he was on the bench for Bayern last night. He's a very, very talented wide forward. He's just come back from international duty at the. I think it's the under 19 or under 17 World cup in Qatar. And yeah, I think it really is very, very important. We mentioned Leonard Karl. One of the things about playing for Bayern is I think you learn how to play for Bayern. I think you learn how to cope with playing for Bayern in the academy. People outside of Germany sometimes misunderstand just how big and significant the club is and how much attention those players face. It's not for everybody, you know, even Premier League stars who've come over. Sadio Mane really struggled with it. That wasn't really good enough. By the time he got there, it was aging, sure, but, like, couldn't really cope with it. Some very, very significant head coaches haven't been able to handle it. Talks about Thomas Tuchel. I kind of agree with Kev about Nagelsmann and whether he should have been given more time, but he didn't always cope with it particularly well. And so it's important, and it's important to have like, stable pieces in the environment rather than just. And let's be honest, even a club like Bayern, with their financial resources and their domestic financial advantage, you can't depend on your transfer policy because you're not going to be able to sign best in class players unless you make them yourself or you sign them at a very, very young age. The idea of Bayern being able to compete with a Manchester City, a Paris Saint Germain, you can't do it, at least not in a sustainable way. And so it's fundamental. And if you talk to anybody at the club, if you talk to someone like Jochen Sauro, who's the head of academy, he'll say that's part of his job, is either I've got to make professional footballers who either we sell and make money from, or we stock the first team because there's not going to be 5 million euros spent every summer on restocking the side and keeping pace with whatever loose financial regulation is going on in the Premier League at the time, whatever that may be. So the campus is important for identity, for creating players who can cope with playing for Bayern Munich, but it's also fundamental to their future.
- [24:03]
Kev Hatchard
Yeah, I think Seb's hit on a really important point there with the transfer market. And there's a couple of things here, I think. I think Bayern ideally would not have made that Nicholas Jackson move. That's not a dig at him, but he's not a game changer enough to necessarily warrant that spot. And what I mean is, ideally, you'd find A player from within. Because you'd think, well, we need a guy that can cover multiple positions. We're not looking for somebody who's top line at the moment. We haven't got the wriggle room to do that in the transfer market. So ideally you turn within and I think that's what they're starting to do. Again, Jackson's just an example. It's not a, A, you know, particular dig at him, but I just think that's the kind of transfer.
- [24:45]
Sepp Stafford
Why do you hate him so much?
- [24:47]
Ayo Akimolere
He's got a couple of goals so far.
- [24:49]
Kev Hatchard
Really.
- [24:49]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, for someone who hasn't fully signed, he's tapped in a few, but.
- [24:53]
Kev Hatchard
He'S a squad player. The point about him, he's perfectly fine. The point about him is he's a squad player.
- [24:58]
Sepp Stafford
Yeah, for sure.
- [24:59]
Kev Hatchard
That's the issue. If Bayern are going to sign a Harry Kane, great. If Bayern are going to sign a Michael Elise, fine. But if you're signing a guy just for numbers, which is what it became in the end, so late in the window, I mean, it's so unusual for Bayern to be part of a transfer drama at the end of a window in that way. It just doesn't generally happen because they either get it done or they walk away. And they never generally lose a player that they want to keep. But that might change because Seb's right. The power of the state backed clubs, the power of the Premier League clubs. Bayern cannot throw their weight around in the market in the way that they once did. And because of that you have to either be really imaginative in the window and really flexible and think, well, who can we bring in that can make a difference? Or you turn within and if you look at back to Kompany, look at the guys who he looks up to, Arteta, look what Arteta did with Miles Lewis Skelly last season. Now I know he's not starting as many games now and I know he got a bit of a chasing from Olise, but the fact that he was willing to give a player that kind of level of minutes when Arsenal were chasing trophies tells you a lot about Arteta's willingness to give young players a chance. Look at Pep Guardiola. Look at the way he speaks about Nico O'Reilly. O'Reilly's got himself into the England team at the moment because Guardiola's been prepared to give him those opportunities. And I think the top coaches will do that because they will recognize that it doesn't really matter how old these guys are. Flicks the Same. It doesn't really matter how old these guys are. Can they win for me now? And if they can, then they'll give them that opportunity.
- [26:34]
Sepp Stafford
I think there's another thing here as well. And I notice that anytime we talk about Bayern, what you get is people not familiar with the Bundesliga saying, oh, they just buy players from the best teams in the Bundesliga. Not really anymore, because I think that's.
- [26:44]
Kev Hatchard
Dortmund.
- [26:48]
Sepp Stafford
Because there's a big gap between the players at the highest level at Dortmund and IB Leipzig, because a lot of those Bundesliga clubs are making players and recruiting players who can be sold to the Premier League, not necessarily who get to 25, 26 as difference makers in domestic German football and then can move up towards. I don't think if you were to say to Max Ebel or Christopher now, right, you can sign one player from the Bundesliga who is not in five years is going to immediately make your team better. Right now, I don't think there is one. The idea of, okay, you're going to find Max Hummels from somewhere and bring him in, or a Mario Gotze, it's really out of date because there's kind of almost a generation gap within German football now. And so Bayern have to look from the outside. So when they need to upgrade their attack, they go to Crystal palace. They're not going to another German side. So it's a really difficult issue.
- [27:38]
Kev Hatchard
That's a big shift because Bayern, if you look at Bayern's recent transfers, the ones that are working Olise, Premier League, Luis Diaz, Premier League, Harry Kane, Premier League. And there's two things at work there. The first is that's where they shop now because that's where you get your battle hardened top class players. And it's about making Bayern a really attractive option. And I think when Premier League players, that's why the Kane thing's so key. Because I mean, he's an absolute gift to Kompany because young players look at him in the training ground and go, oh my God, that's what you need to do to hit that level. So he's a gift in that way. But for them to have got the England captain and for him to be constantly talking about how happy he is and the fact he wants to stay, which people in England cannot compute, they're like, why wouldn't he want to go back to Spurs? Why wouldn't he want to go back to the Premier League? What about Premier League records?
- [28:31]
Ayo Akimolere
Why would you want to go back to Spurs? But yeah, I get it, they talk.
- [28:34]
Kev Hatchard
About the Premier League Record which Haaland's going to break anyway, so they cannot compute that he's so happy at Bayern. So I think they have completely shifted that transfer policy.
- [28:44]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay. And on Elise and Diaz as well, players they've brought in from the Premier League. Seb, where do they sit in the pantheon of great wingers that Bayern have had at their disposal? Iron Robin, Flank Ribery, for instance. Is Alise highly rated? I saw what Luis Diaz did against Union Berlin the other weekend. Oh, my goodness. But Alise for me has been such a sparkling Bayern this season, at least.
- [29:07]
Sepp Stafford
Sensational. Absolutely sensational footballer. I don't want to compare anyone to Aaron Robben and Frank Ribery because it's not really fair, because their players are associated with such an era of dynastic success that it's apples and oranges, right? But Elise, I always get this when I talk about how well he's played for Bayern Munich, I always get Crystal palace fans saying he was a brilliant player before he left. Absolutely so. Absolutely so. He's a phenomenally gifted footballer and he has been for a long time. All I'd say is that Bayern, he's surrounded by players that can extract just a little bit more of, like, his tangible worth. So, for example, against Arsenal, we talked about Jose Kimmich's long ball for Serge Gnabry and how that unlocked the defense in the Bundesliga. What you often see is Kimmich playing that ball to Elise on the opposite touchline to isolate him with a defender. And it's so reliable because, well, that's what you get with a player of Kimmich's class, right? You just have that steady supply. It would be like playing a with Paul Scholes if you're a man United player 20 years ago. And so when you surround him with players like that and with a centre forward like Harry Kane, who is not just one of the best players of this generation, he's a rare footballer in his breadth. These players don't exist everywhere. But you're putting at least in that context and you're bringing the absolute most out of what is already staggering ability. And the thing with him is Kev's the commentator, so he'll have to do the color part of this and the kind of all the florid details. But simultaneously, he's a very languid player. He makes being good at football look very, very easy. At the same time, he's got a switch which, when the situation demands urgency, he can be incredibly dynamic and effective. And it's kind of watching those two things exist within the same player because they're almost contradictions. But for me, I can't praise him enough. I think his adaption to life in Bavaria has been excellent. I think the chemistry he's quickly developed with all of the players around him, he makes Bayern better. That Bayern attack isn't spoken of in the same way without Alise, with Diaz, too, but obviously he's only been there for a few months now. Yeah, just a staggeringly good footballer.
- [31:09]
Kev Hatchard
I think with Kane, he's been one of the top two players in Germany since the start of last season. I think they're there, the two. I think he is that mix of kind of grace and grit because he's willing to do all of the dirty work. And actually, in interviews, he's talked about quite enjoying it. He really enjoys the pressing game. He doesn't mind going after players and trying to win the ball back half. What's been notable, actually, since he got to Bayern is he's been much more durable. One of the big things we've seen at palace was that he would miss a lot of games. He'd have various injuries. Yeah.
- [31:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Why do you think that is? That's interesting, because I've noticed a birth of fitness, because I do remember he was injured a lot at Crystal Palace. Has Kompany worked with him in a particular way?
- [31:51]
Kev Hatchard
Well, I just wonder. I mean, the Premier League physically is harder. It just is. And there are more games where Bayern can take it a little bit easy and have a few breathers here and there. So that may have contributed. Bayern are obviously, you know, very, very good with the sports science thing. Palace are as well, to be fair. You know, it won't have been, you know, any kind of neglect on Palace's part. So, yeah, I. I think maybe a bit of fortune as well. Sometimes you see that players just have a really good run. He strikes me as a player that does look after himself. He strikes me as a player that's very focused. And I think Seb's right. I think when you watch him, he's a pure joy anyway, to watch him. You know, you just watch him and it's like, oh, my God, he's incredible. Like the way he moves, the way he dips, the shoulder, the technique, the passes, the shots, the whole lot. He's got the whole lot. But there's the thing that has slightly not taken me by surprise, but the thing I hadn't noticed so much before is the real kind of steel inside him. He's a winner. He's absolutely a winner. He's demanding of the players around him. He wants the ball constantly. And Seb's right, he recognizes is when you have to shift gears. I mean, let's not forget talking about that Arsenal game. He chased Miles Louis Skelli out of the game. They had to bring Calafiore on and obviously Calafiori then makes what proves to be the winning goal. But they had to change it because he, Luis Skelli, was being twisted all over the place. So he will do that to player after player after player. He's just a phenomenal performer. But the consistency is the thing that's really impressive. I think he got 20 goals in all competitions last season. He's already up to like 19 goal involvements this season. And at Bayern you have to maintain those levels and he's absolutely done that.
- [33:35]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. French international and yeah. Seems to have gone onto another level since being at Bayern very quickly on company Seb, obviously we've spoken about the Guardiola link to Bayern Co. Also a disciple of Guardiola. I can't help but think, you know, this is a wonderful test for company to see where he stretches his might. Is there a possible conversation about him being Guardiola's successor at Manchester City?
- [33:59]
Sepp Stafford
I've seen the stories. I think it's an easy story to write, but I think for now, I mean, he's just signed a new Bayern Munich contract, deservedly. And this is a really interesting project because we've talked about some of the young players developing. There is a little bit of a headache on the horizon because I'm not sure how they replace Kane. There isn't an obvious solution to that issue. Yeah.
- [34:19]
Ayo Akimolere
It's not Nicholas Jackson, is it?
- [34:20]
Sepp Stafford
It's not Nicholas Jackson. There was a point at which they thought it might be Nick Voldemade before he left Stuttgart, because that would have been quite a handy solution to deal with, like Masiala's injury, but then Kane's. You could imagine. But no, I don't know. I don't know. I'm enjoying watching him coach Bayern and do such a good job. And I think also I wrote an article about him recently and it was kind of. It attracted some disobliging comments about, well, how hard can it be? Is Bayern Munich. Bayern Munich went. No, no, no, no. He's had an incredibly profound effect on not just the way that Bayern played football, but the tone around Bayern Munich. And that is a very, very difficult thing to do. And I can't wait to see what happens next. And also, like, like Kevin spoke about this right at the beginning we were talking about the Arsenal game and he'll have his notes. He'll have recognized what happened in that game. He's an incredibly hard worker. Crazy. He lives crazy hours. There are stories of Burnley of him turning up at 5 in the morning and leaving at 11 at night. And his analysis is pretty exhaustive. And I'm sure he'll have watched the full 90 minutes back like three times before he even got back to Munich. So let's see what happens next.
- [35:25]
Kev Hatchard
The one caveat with Kompani, and it's something he'll be well aware of, is some of these performances away from home against big hitters. They went to Barcelona and they, they got a chasing in that game and they lost heavily. They went to Villa and they lost 1 nil. They went to Feyenoord and had a really, really difficult game and lost heavily. I'm not saying that, that he's not improved. He has, but that is a question until he does it. And I think winning in Paris is a part of, of it. But the ultimate test is going to be the back end of that Champions League because they will win the Bundesliga. There's no, I don't have a doubt about that they will win the Bundesliga. The question is going to be can they really make an impact at the back end of the Champions League? He has the tools to do that, but he has to prove that his high risk strategy, which I love watching, can be effective. But I'm very positive about him. Same as Seb. I think he's made a huge impact at Bayern. The remaining question is can they really go deeper in the Champions League and potentially win it?
- [36:26]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Kev, you teed us up nicely actually, because next we'll talk about the Champions League midweek action.
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- [38:15]
Podcast Host / Announcer
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [38:18]
Ayo Akimolere
Alright, we have to talk about Liverpool fell to their ninth defeat in their last 12 games in all competitions. Kev on Tuesday we spoke about a mounting pressure I guess on Arne Slot. I mean this is like their worst run in 71 years. What a shock that was at Anfield PSV winning 4 1. This is Liverpool, this is European football. This is Theirita.
- [38:40]
Kev Hatchard
Yeah, but the problem nowadays, and I think actually always at top level football, is that you know, teams won't just roll over for you. And as soon as teams realize you have a weakness, whether that's confidence, whether that's rhythm, whether that's injuries, what have you, they'll go for you. And Peter Boss plays one way. Me and Seb know that from his time at Dortmund and Leverkusen, Peter Boss always famously said they said what's your plan B? And he went, oh, there is no plan B. We just need to do plan A better. So you know, we knew how they were going to play. But they play at pace, they commit men forwards. And as soon as Liverpool made yet another bad start, they were behind the eight ball and I know they equalized quickly and I know Arnold Slot talks about, you know, we made chances, maybe we could have gone 21 up. But from the moment they went 21 down early in the second half, you could see the confidence just draining away and they're like here we go again. So there is no doubt. And I know people, people don't want to hear it and I don't want, people don't want to discuss this. And Liverpool have never publicly used it as an excuse. But I'm sorry, if you lose a teammate in the way they lost Diogo Jota in the summer, that is going to have a lasting effect on you. Now I, I know that's Controversial for some people and they don't want to hear it and they don't want it used as an excuse. I'm not using it as an excuse. They can't do that. We can. We can say this has an effect now. It's not the only thing and it doesn't explain everything. But there has been a collective loss of intensity, confidence, form and that goes back all the way to the wins. They started winning loads of games. They barely play well in any of them. So I just think, I know people don't want to hear it, but it's a factor. And injuries are a factor. Players coming in, not settling, that's a factor. But I think Liverpool will take a long term view on this. I think Liverpool have built a squad for the next four years, not the next four months and I think that's the way they will look at it. But what it says to you as well is that there's some really good teams out there and the standards you have. We've talked about Bayern and people go, oh it's so easy for Bayern. They rack up all these wins, blah blah, blah. It isn't. It really isn't. You have to be on it every time. I mean they went to union, Berlin drew 2, 2. They went 2 nil down against Freiburg, had to come back. And if you're off it at this level for a sustained period of time, it gets worse and worse and worse.
- [41:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, super quickly said we have to talk about spurs. They did lose 53 to PSG and I don't know, I watched the extended highlights of that and it was great to see spurs actually scoring and a player that they've brought in column wane scoring against his parent club.
- [41:24]
Sepp Stafford
Yeah. Wearing what looks like a very, very uncomfortable face mask as well. Right. Yeah. It was a step forward, no doubt. I think spurs are in a very, very difficult place at the moment. I think they're struggling with all sor of things. They're trying to develop a new tactical identity. Clearly Thomas Frank doesn't seem to have that first 11 set in in stone. I also think that the squad he's inherited has not been built particularly well. You've got too many players in some positions, not enough in others. I think the balance in the midfield is off. I think also its dependence on certain individual players is too great. These are legacies of not just last summer, but also the way that the club has spent the transfer market for years now, which is did do, let's be fair, as little as it possibly can. And to invest as little as it can, really, within reason, while still remaining competitive. And I think that will take a long time to change. I'm still on the fence. I don't know whether this is heading to somewhere good or somewhere bad. Triumph or disaster. No idea at all. The analysis you pay for, right? Absolutely no idea. But it was certainly good to see a little bit of ambition and some shots.
- [42:28]
Kev Hatchard
It's always nice.
- [42:29]
Sepp Stafford
And also, yeah, because I think it's important. I think there are good and bad ways to lose games. There are definitely good and bad ways to lose North London Derbies. And last Sunday was completely unacceptable. And so this was a kind of. This was a good response. And listen, Paris Saint Germain, a wonderfully talented team. And I kind of completely agree with Frank about Vitinha. He's a staggeringly gifted midfielder and I think maybe will win a Ballon d' or one day. So no disgrace in losing, but this was a little bit of, I suppose, ego reinflation and, yeah, good. Maybe one of those results that hopefully in a few months people look back on, think, okay, that was at least step one on the ladder. Rung one because they were at rung zero after. After Sunday. Or maybe a little bit subterranean.
- [43:15]
Kev Hatchard
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's talk about the Premier League and their might. Because Newcastle lost to Marseille and Pierre Emerick. Aubameyang was outstanding. Manchester City lost at home to Bayern Leverkusen on Tuesday. I mean, we talk about the money the Premier League have got. Money won't just buy you a win at this point, will it?
- [43:32]
Kev Hatchard
No, it won't. And you look at the Marseille game, for example. They are a proper deserbi team. If you at them, you go, oh, that's a de Zerbe team. Like the way that they bait the press, the way that they commit men to the attack. They've got loads of attacking options. So they're really good side. The Leverkusen thing. They've been on the charge for a while now. Casper Ulman went in there and has done a super job. Great man, manager. Bit of a difference to Eric Ten Hag in that regard. Just a bit. I think Leverkusen looked at it and thought, right, we've lost Frimpong, we've lost Virt, we've lost Tar, we've lost Radetzky. This is a huge change. If we're going to do this, we might as well do it properly and build for the next four or five years and bring all of these guys in together. They just chose the wrong man to oversee it. They Got there in the end and to be fair to them, they wanted Julman before and he couldn't do it because he was doing a big project with the Danish Football association and he was in the midst of that. So they did want the right guy. It just took them a while to get him. So I wasn't mega surprised by that. Grimaldo's really stepped up as a leader this season. He's been phenomenal and I think all of the kind of focus has been on City making all those changes. Still an incredibly strong team. Let's not get that twisted. I mean, that was a proper City team.
- [44:48]
Sepp Stafford
Did you remember that in the second half when, like, you know, if you're a Leverkusen player and you've got through the first half, you think, well, we're doing pretty well here. And then you get midway through the second half and you have seen in order, Doku, O'Reilly, Foden, Haaland. It was as strong a sort of a batch of substitutes as you could possibly have wished to face. Right? And they did very well with it. They coached really, really well. And I remember Hillman saying afterwards, I thought he talked about how brave they were and he spotlighted their courage and I thought that was absolutely right. They just played their football. They believed they could win that game and they did.
- [45:20]
Kev Hatchard
Taken 22 points from nine games in the league.
- [45:23]
Sepp Stafford
Defense is getting better too, because the defense for a long time was dreadful. And all of a sudden, I mean, certainly it was the best I've seen Barde Quansah and Balochin play this season. And the goalkeeper who's had a very difficult start, Flachen, played brilliantly the Etihad, which. And it's great news for Leverkusen.
- [45:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I think Turkey was the other sub as well, I think. Come on, French international.
- [45:46]
Kev Hatchard
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Ayo Akimolere
Light work, gents, light work.
- [45:48]
Sepp Stafford
The world's very best five a side team.
- [45:51]
Kev Hatchard
If you've got a situation where as a defender or just as a player, you're looking at that bench going, oh, this isn't fair.
- [45:57]
Sepp Stafford
When's Hortense coming on?
- [46:00]
Kev Hatchard
You can't. It was a little bit like buying an Arsenal actually on Wednesday night because you look at the players Arsenal were able to bring on. It's just that this is not fair. Like you can't keep bringing on these quality players. And. And it's funny actually, because one of the most eye catching results was obviously Chelsea, Barcelona. And you look at the depth they have now and I know, I mean they've spent an enormous amount of Money to get that depth. So let's not forget that because, you know, it's not this plucky young Chelsea, you know, how are they going to get on that? That's not the narrative. The narrative, if they've spent huge amounts of money, but Enzo Maresca spent a lot of time playing stuff down, we're not ready for the title. We're not ready to contend for the big trophies. This is a young group that's. That's growing. I don't think you get to say that now. I think if you wipe the floor with Barcelona in the way that they did, and I know Araujo got sent off and I know Pedri wasn't part of the team because he's injured, but when you. You do that to a team like that, you can't then turn around and go, well, if we manage to get a solid win at Burnley, that's good. That's a step forward. No, no, no. You have to be looking, looking at that game against Arsenal, for example, and looking at eye level. You have to. Because if you've got Estevao, who I think is one of the most phenomenal young talents I've ever seen, genuinely, I just think there's Ballon d' or winner right there. That kid just. I think he is. I think he is. And I'll tell you why I think he is. Because he's 18 now. He's already been a winner with Palmeiras and a big part of that team. He's already in double figures for caps for Brazil, and he scored, what, five goals for Brazil already, injury permitting. I think that's the only thing that can stop him, because I just think the way he speaks, the way he carries himself, the way he takes responsibility, I think they've got one of the top talents in world football there. And I think. Actually, I have criticisms of Maresca, I do. But one of the things he does do is he gets a tune out of his wingers because they're so important to the way he plays. But I think in the end, what will happen happen is Esteval will be a 10. Now, whether that happens at Chelsea, dovetailing with Palmer, or whether it has to happen somewhere else, we'll see. But Maresca got it spot on pace in the front four to get behind the high defensive line. Rhys James in midfield make it really tough to get through the middle alongside Caicedo Cucarea. Probably the best lockdown left back there is. Nuno Mendes is the best left back altogether. But Cucarera thinks probably the best, best horrible left back to play against. Just completely, completely caged. Lamina Mal just couldn't do anything. But they can't keep saying, oh, we're just on the process now. Top four will be fine. No, no, no. You gotta back yourself and you've gotta go for the big trophies. Cause they can do it.
- [48:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Well, as we're still talking European football, make sure you check out Wednesday's show on Real Madrid and the situation between Benicius Jr and also Xabi Alonso as well. Maybe Esteval's future destination, who knows. All right gents, let's at look. Leave it there. Seb, Kev, appreciate your time. Thank you guys for listening. Matt Davis Adams brings you the preview tomorrow and all eyes. As we've mentioned, I'm on Stamford Bridge.
- [49:15]
Podcast Host / Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers of Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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Ayo Akimolere
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