Loading summary
Transcript80 lines
- [00:01]
Adrian
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars. Place bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 in New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1, 800, bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico for first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [01:14]
Brandon
Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants.
- [01:44]
Cynthia
You know that feeling when a girl who gets it gives you a genuine compliment? Suddenly you're strutting through the streets, sending motivational voice notes to the group chat, manifesting a new man. That's the tresemme lamellar gloss effect, babe. It's an unstoppable kind of confidence reserved only for the real girls. Girls. And now we've bottled it. We're talking shampoo conditioner. Leave in cream, shine spray and a finishing oil that's seriously too glossy to gatekeep 72 hours of salon level shine. That's gloss that gives girl and it's available everywhere. So go out there, get glossy and give gloss with Tresemme's new Lamellar gloss collection.
- [02:27]
Ayo Akimwaleere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. Arsenal's European journey is over.
- [02:39]
Cynthia
Keeping short.
- [02:40]
Ayo Akimwaleere
That's it, surely. That's it now he's absolutely wrapped that into the back of the Arsenal net with a wonderful finish. So where does this leave Arteta's process and why can't Arsenal get over the line? So here with us today we have our Arsenal writer Artur Rocher, tactics writer Liam Tharman, Phil Hay from the Athletic FC Newsletter as well. Now before we hear from our panel, let's get across to Paris.
- [03:12]
Jordan Campbell
Jordan Campbell here at the Parc des Prince where Arsenal have gone out of the Champions League at the semifinal stage. It's a really bitter blow and I'm standing watching the PSG players in a huddle with Luis Enrique jumping up and down mad and the Arsenal players looking for loan, some sitting on the ground as they applaud the traveling support. It's another, another very, very disappointing defeat to add to the semi final against Newcastle in the EFL cup and and the close calls that they've had in the Premier League the last two years. And I guess you leave Paris tonight wondering how many more times these players can pick themselves up off the ground. You know we've seen that they've been such a great team over the last three years but just finding the way to get over the line and get past that semi final stage or get over the over the line and the League has eluded them and that's now it'll be five trophy seasons in a row. So there's now a bit of pressure on this team to to convert what is a great team and great progress into something tangible. I guess that was probably captured across the two ties. Arsenal have had seven or eight very, very good chances.
- [04:14]
Phil Hay
Martinelli cross arc firing across the face and Donnaruma comes up big again.
- [04:19]
Jordan Campbell
Timber's got it for Arsenal.
- [04:21]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Chipped into one and what a chance that was. Declan right, really good distance. Oh, it's a great save by Donna. Runner get. It's going to fall here for Martin.
- [04:29]
Phil Hay
Oh, he saved it all.
- [04:30]
Ayo Akimwaleere
My goodness, that's astonishing. He said that so well under guard with the sh. Oh that's a great Save. Well, it goes down to Califiori.
- [04:37]
Jordan Campbell
Here come Arsenal, costing Saka.
- [04:39]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Oh, he's missed it. What a chance.
- [04:41]
Jordan Campbell
But they were just done by the more clinical team. And I think that sums up where Arsenal are at the moment. It's going to be a big summer for these players to go over that disappointment. But there's still three big games in the. In the league that they need to. They need to focus on quickly with Liverpool and Newcastle. They need to seal that second place. So, yeah, a really disappointing night for Arsenal and one I think they'll look back on and think that they could have got over the line.
- [05:04]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Oh, my goodness. Those clips of the missed chances by Arsenal are got me a little triggered, to be fair. But I mean, look, Jordan's right. I mean, Arsenal did have their chances. And we'll talk about how much faith this team have in the process a little later on. But I look at that match against psg. Are those missed chances just more symptomatic of, I guess, how Arsenal have performed all season as well?
- [05:27]
Liam Tharman
Yeah, I'd say part of it is also just everything caught up with them. When we look at how their season has gone, it's not just been about, I guess, not having a striker to put away those chances, but it's been about the injuries that they've suffered throughout the campaign. Odegaard got injured in September. Then that was followed up by, I think California and Timber. Gabriel had minor injuries as well. Then you have the big one with Saka, Jesus Havertz and then Gabriel Magaes. So I think all of that's probably just come and built up to this moment. But then when you look at the two ties as a whole, those moments I think you've seen, especially in that second leg, I think when. When you kind of get to that wall so often and you're hit by the. The same thing, which is Donnarumma, you kind of start to think maybe this isn't your night. And it proved that way. So I think you saw just yet a lot of the stories that have come through this season. You just saw the same story again in Paris.
- [06:30]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, this wasn't your night. That was the feeling I sort of felt, Phil, after Arsenal couldn't really bury after the first, you know, 20 minutes of dominance. And I guess you think about the ebbs and flows of a match. You know, getting a goal that early on just resets that match. And unfortunately you sort of felt that after that you let PSG back into the match and Arsenal end up sort of chasing the Match inevitably. How did you see it that when Arsenal couldn't get it over the line those first 20 minutes, did you feel like the inevitable was going to happen?
- [07:00]
Phil Hay
Well, if you think about how wobbly it got for PSG after Saka scored in the second half, and it did get wobbly, there was just a few minutes of, of panic leading to that, that big miss from Saka. It's not difficult to imagine how tense the evening in the stadium might have become if Arsenal had drawn first blood. And that initial 20 minute onslaught could have turned the game on its head quite easy. Fabian Ruiz's goal was pivotal. I mean, obviously it was, but the early spell of blood and thunder was Arsenal's time. And I think Donnarumma's save from Martin Odegaard was the one really that shifted things from Arsenal could easily be level on aggregate to Arsenal really should be level on aggregate. And it allowed for a momentum shift, which I think PSG needed at that point. They need it to shift because they hadn't, hadn't started well. PSG were always going to score at some stage. I felt the counterattacking is just too good and the killer instinct is just too sharp up front. They're almost impossible to resist unless you. You've got a good bit of luck along with some, some really top defending. But while the first goal hurt, I, I do think that the biggest setback for Arteta was the fact that in that first 10, 20 minutes, they, they failed to crack PSG. Because I, I thought Arsenal played well over both legs. And I'd go as far as to say that I thought they were the better team. On the night last night, PSG played the better football, if that makes sense. When they find their rhythm, they do look sensational in a way that Arsenal don't. But Arsenal had enough of the semi to win it. So without saying that the wrong team won, I did think it was quite marginal. But as Jordan was saying there, there's the issue for Arteta. When it really matters, Arsenal don't get it done. And it seems to happen time and time again. And I do sympathize when I consider the lineup that he had to go with in Paris yesterday. But five years without a trophy or a significant trophy is counting against him.
- [08:42]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, huge. Huge. And we'll talk about that a little later on. But Liam, let's give PSG their flowers. Premier League slayers, Aston Villa, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal Now, I mean, they've been really phenomenal and have grown through this tournament. Now, you've looked at them from A tactical perspective. You know, Phil talks about their counter attack, Phil talks about their leisure, sharp finishing, ruthlessness. Some might even say, what have you noticed about them and what has made them so good as they've built through this tournament.
- [09:10]
Amy Lawrence
I think they've had some real variety to their game as individuals and as a collective. Luis Enrique's coached them into one of the best high pressing teams in Europe this season. And we saw quite a bit of that actually in the first, second elsewhere in the knockout rounds, Liverpool especially. I think that first leg in Paris, we saw that here they showed they can play the other side of the defensive game, of sitting in a bit more, hitting them on transition. There's not really a side to their game now that they can't really do. They can play through teams, carve them apart. We saw that with identical goals at the Emirates and Liverpool in terms of the way they played through the press. So yeah, there's not an outstanding weakness which I, I think is a really big strength. You're looking at a team who I think for five or six seasons between 2017, 18 and 202223 didn't win both legs of a Champions League knockout game. They did make a final in that time, of course, when it was the single leg era. But to have done that now, this is the third time in the last two seasons under Lewis Enrique, they've actually won both legs that historically PSG have had and are trying to shake these connotations of being a team that could collapse, could wobble at times, would need comebacks, or could win a first leg of a knockout game and would lose the second one. And they've then become really good at actually starting games really well. It wasn't something they did for a long time under Lewis Enrique, they had a lot of possession but would struggle to break teams down. They've got really good now at starting games fast, scoring, scoring. Early on. I think their first, first three shots in Paris on, on Wednesday night were Frat Scala hitting the post on that far post. Curler Douay got in on a counter attack and had a shot that went straight at Rai. And then Fabian Maurice had the shot that went in with a slight deflection. So they've become really good and I think once they do get into that winning position, they're really good then at controlling games either with the ball or sort of through pressing or sit little bit deeper.
- [10:46]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, there's something interesting we were talking about just before we started the pod that PSG has scored inside the opening 12 minutes. Of all three of their knockout games. You think about the Dembele goal against Arsenal at the Emirates just to sort of set the tone, Liam, especially as they're away from home. I mean, how important has that been for them in the knockout phases?
- [11:02]
Amy Lawrence
Yeah, I think that's been huge. I think it was the. I worked out the first 19 Champions League games under L Enrique. So from the start of last season up until they played Manchester City at home in the league phase, I think they had 13 first halves when they didn't score. And that City game of course, was another one where they were so dominant and then went 20 down and needed a big comeback job. And you think, okay, you can do that once or twice perhaps in a Champions League season. And they had that at Anfield where you say, look, you can get one where maybe once or twice you win ugly. But for the most part, you know, champions or competition winners are so good because they can actually hit teams early on. And obviously with Dembele being the one that scored a couple of those goals that you mentioned, danger now for Liverpool.
- [11:40]
Liam Tharman
Dembele arriving, Dembele with the goal at.
- [11:43]
Phil Hay
His mercy and psg a level in the tie.
- [11:46]
Amy Lawrence
A big part of that has been not show holding the system but finding a way that individuals work in that team. So, you know, he's been retrained from a winger to a number nine and is having a phenomenal scoring season. You know, numbers that he's never even come close to hitting. He's been so, so clinical. They found balance in the midfield too last season. Manuel Agarte was in midfield and got dropped in the knockout rounds. Fabian Reece came in. I think he's the unsung hero really, this team, you know, perhaps also Spain as well at the Euros where add so much physicality, he's a left footer in there can be the guy that drops in, runs beyond plays. Some really nice passes, you know, Virginia. And I think Shah Nev is a sort athletic and so good in the counter press, so stylish to watch. But I think having that balance in midfield is what kind of makes that team really tick.
- [12:26]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Okay, great attacking, great counter attacking, Phil. But we have to talk about Gianluigi Donnarumma. I mean he's look, he's faces criticism and I think we've even said it on this podcast. He's not that great with his feet, but just like Jan Sommer. Some unbelievable saves over the last two legs.
- [12:45]
Phil Hay
Well, aside from anything else, the guy's massive. He's huge. And I found myself Thinking like last night, was anybody more born to be a goalkeeper than Donna Roma? Probably not. It must become quite psychological playing against him as well. He's got this ridiculous reach, enormous wingspan, and he's pretty much crammed a season's worth of world class saves into two legs of a semifinal or certainly into one knockout stage of the Champions League. I actually thought it was quite harsh pinning the defeat to Dortmund on him last season. I've seen far worse goalkeeping debacles than than that. And you know, I accept that he does make a few errors, but you know, his big game mentality seems to be pretty fabulous. He sort of epitomizes the shift at PSG from the Galactico era, if you want to call it that, to the creation of an actual team and an actual unit. I mean, he was on the scene when Messi, Neymar and Mbappe were all being crammed in up front. But Lewis Enrique's focus on the collective, you know, a technically exceptional collective, has let you know far less fashionable players sign. It was really interesting listening to what Liam was saying, his observations about them, and I've kind of noticed with psg, but they don't seem to suffer when they have to interchange players like Dembele. Missing last night didn't seem to affect their attacking flair or the flow in a. In a big way. Hakimi is just becoming the quintessential right back. Dembele seems to have found it far easier to breathe without the shadow of somebody like Mbappe hanging over him. And I guess this is how you build a side, isn't it? Not just by splodging on Neymar and Messi. Kind of weird things happen with the match, like in that Galactico spell. They're quite difficult to love as a club. I was saying in the newsletter this morning they were the kind of side that appealed to the sort of people who like shiny things. But this team has kind of everything you want from a lineup. They're technically brilliant.
- [14:41]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, you're absolutely spot on. Right, let's move on because next we'll ask how Arsenal get over the line.
- [14:49]
Amy Lawrence
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.
- [14:56]
Adrian
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BETMGM this season. We'll be using BETMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you you haven't signed up for BETMGM yet, use bonus code theathletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny 467-369 In New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 In Massachusetts, 1, 800, bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1, 800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [16:09]
Brandon
If you're a parent or share a fridge with someone, Instacart is about to make grocery shopping so much easier because with family carts you can share a cart with your partner and each add the items you want. Since between the two of you, odds are you'll both remember everything you need. And this way you'll never have to eat milkless cereal again. So minimize the stre of the weekly shop with family carts, download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus enjoy. Zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants.
- [16:45]
Cynthia
You know that feeling when a girl who gets it gives you a genuine compliment? Suddenly you're strutting through the streets sending motivational voice notes to the group chat, manifesting a new man. That's the Tresemme Lamellar gloss effect, babe. It's an unstoppable kind of confidence reserved only for the real girls. Girls. And now we've bottled it. We're talking shampoo, conditioner, leave in cream, shine spray and a finishing oil that's seriously too glossy to gatekeep 72 hours of salon level shine. That's gloss that gives girl and it's available everywhere. So go out there, get glossy and give gloss with Tresemme's new Lamellar gloss collection.
- [17:29]
Jordan Campbell
Hi, Mikael. As you said, you felt you were the better team and you've talked about you've still not got that trophy to hold up yet. When you're in that dressing room there and you're looking at your players, is there any fear that when you're trying to remotivate them again, to go again and believe that you can get over the line, you get any fear that it'll be a struggle this summer, then they cannot play football at the highest level. You have the best example in the other dressing room. Marquinhos. 11 times is right with this club as I want it. 11 times is the captain, so that's the 12th and let's see if they win it. So 11 times that you have to go down and up. So look in the mirror, somebody like this with that trajectory and learn you want to be in the sport and you want to be competing and be very close for the trophies. You better be able to deal with that. It hurts but you have to deal with that. You see that hunger and rice though today I see how much they wanted.
- [18:22]
Phil Hay
Because they were in tears.
- [18:24]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, that was Jordan Campbell once again putting the questions to Mikel Arteta post match and Art, this is a really interesting one. You know, I didn't realize this stat until we were doing this podcast. It's now four two legged semi finals under Michael Arteta which Arsenal have failed to progress. And we talk about Marquinhos there having to wait this long for yet again another final. After Arsenal lost that match against psg, I thinking about the process and I was just thinking if I could put myself in the shoes of, of a football player, especially young ones who are hungry and want success. When you don't see a fruit to that, how much can you trust in the process? Look, look at Marquinhos, right? At least you can say he's got some sort of trophy, the French League, you know, and they keep winning it, psg, keep winning it, right, so there is some silverware there. This is a new coach, this is a new manager. They've already, they're looking like they're going to win the treble at some point this season. How hard is it to trust the process when it's hard to see the fruit bearing?
- [19:16]
Liam Tharman
Yeah, I think when you look at how certain Arsenal players have spoken in this Champions League run. So I'm talking about William Saliba, Bukayo, Saka, they're both players whose contracts run out in two years, 20, 27. So you're looking at that period as, from an Arsenal perspective. You want them to, I guess, re sign for longer term deals because they're players that deserve to be playing for the best clubs in Europe, the world. And I think those guys have both said that they want to win Arsenal and they want to win with Arsenal because they don't want their period at Arsenal to almost be forgotten about because they haven't won something. Because you can have, I guess, a great time at a club, but your legacy is what you win there. And I think from that perspective you can see, I guess, they still believe in what's going on at Arsenal, but the big thing is having something tangible to hold on to. Memories that aren't just, oh, that one night against Real Madrid, but actually you can have the weight of a medal in your hand and say, yeah, we as a group went and won that together. So I think the longer that feeling of being second or just being the bridesmaid goes on, it probably would become a bit easier to look elsewhere. But I think the fact that there is a strong group of those guys that have grown together, I think when you look at the squad, a lot of them were signed around the same time or broke through at the same time. So around 20, 20, 2021, I think that should hopefully help, I guess Arteta and Arsenal as a, as a club keep a lot of them because they have, I guess, been on this journey together. But when you look at it from the outside perspective, it then becomes a bit tiresome when you're always having to think of, okay, next year, next year, next year. There's only so many times you can say that before it starts getting old. And I think for some people, especially from a fan perspective, it probably got a bit old. So you look at the summer and you think, okay, you have to go big again, because last summer, and I'm sure we'll get onto this, you probably look at that as the first time Arsenal had a, maybe not a back step, but a sideways step in what they were doing off the field. And you've seen that as kind of come to this result now.
- [21:41]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, Liam makes a really good point. I like that phrase. Maybe it's getting a bit old and I wonder if you could give us any insight from a tactical perspective or have our Arsenal have played under Arteta, Are they getting better? But also, you know, I look back at the first leg of the PSG match, you know, when things weren't going their way, it seemed like this team sort of went back to the Same old pinging it to the back post hoping someone can get ahead or in something that worked for them in the past but doesn't necessarily work for them when the game is different against a different opposition.
- [22:13]
Amy Lawrence
Yeah, I think they've lent more into that element of building on the super shunts rather than being adaptable. Perhaps that's something we see more with Liverpool this season where they've looked very different in games. Arsenal perhaps use their strength and when they're really good there's a reason why they can know beat teams 4, 5, 6, 0 they can really put a team away and I think that that's got them and it's tricky because that can get you to this point really well as long as there's a, a difficult discussion to be had about well how do you then make that that next step you might need to change things. And the, the, the squad depth part I think is, is huge as well. That sort of art mentioned and brought up injuries that maybe that's also partly down to the style. We're seeing, you know, some of the high pressing teams that really starting to suffer with the volume of games that they're having. There's a lot of success to be had. I find it hard to be too critical of a team that made semi finals of you know, the Champions League that have been so good for so long in the Premier League. And Arteta made that fair point of saying look, two, three years ago, no one expected us to be there. So it's amazing how that bar very quickly kind of moves up. And yeah, it's tricky because you can very easily I think lose all that as soon as you start to try and move away from it. But they are a team that does need to evolve more in attack. Look, it's one of the best defensive teams. It was in the Champions League group stage or league phase. Sorry, it has been in the Premier League for, for a long time now. It's going. Their goals have dropped off a cliff this season. Partly that is if you look at the underlying numbers, the expected goals that they were big over performers in the past couple seasons they were really clinical. You expect some kind of regression and I think that's one of the things you add to Art list where he talks about things kind of catching up with them, that that's another way they've maybe been a little bit more wasteful. You think of some of the chances last night that Saka one from the low cross where he somehow puts it over the bar games they are made on those moments can change very quickly.
- [23:48]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah. What did you make of Thomas Partey's throwing game yesterday? I mean, it was, what, 11 long throws against PSG right at the top end. Of course, it frazzles them because they're not expecting it very quickly. It becomes very predictable.
- [24:01]
Amy Lawrence
It's right. It's right. I mean, look, I think there's a lot of value in that. Arsenal are such an early dominant team. PSG generally not apart from those sort of two center backs you're looking at maybe Fabian Reese in midfield. They've got some height out wide in the wingers who are a bit tall, but, you know, they're not. Not as early stacked as Arsenal. So it made a lot of sense. But as you mentioned, they kind of realized it very quick. Ironically, we've speak at Donaruma earlier on. For someone that big, he tends to not command his box too well. So I think you can get away with more of those against psg, even though they were kind of losing the first contacts, there was, I think, Martinelli, where he landed on one and shot just wide. You can get those chances kind of on the second phase. And then obviously Arsenal themselves conceded the opening goal from clearing a wide free kick and then not picking up the second ball. So it's very tricky because, you know, there's quite obviously an alternative universe where we're having a very different discussion because one of those chances has gone in early on. Right. So it's hard to base the process too much purely on the outcome. And I think part of the issue as well has been, and maybe Art can speak more on this, is how maybe a bit weaker they've become defensively at set pieces this season. They've been okay going forward. They've hit a bit of a plateau in terms of how well those in swinging corners tend to work. Look, there was value to it, as you mentioned, a shock factor to it. I think it's hard these days to actually surprise teams in terms of the things you come up with, and with injuries, with not a huge number of attacking options and cards to play, sometimes you do need something a little bit different like that.
- [25:20]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And that's an interesting one with the injuries, Phil. And I wonder if that's part of it as well, in terms of how maybe Arsenal and Arteta are finding it hard to get over the. The final step or that hardest step. Is that. Is there an argument that the personnel aren't quite there for that final step? When you get to these stages of. Of a tournament where it's all about those fine Details.
- [25:41]
Phil Hay
It's a factor definitely, but it's not as if Arsenal and Arteta haven't spent year after year. Whether they've done enough in the right positions is a moot point and something that, that I'm going to discuss. And you can't pretend that the injuries aren't just generally an issue across football as a whole. There have been plenty at Manchester City. PSG weren't able to start with Dembele last night. And I get that that's, that's one player but that's what good coaching and good management involves is building a squad where the players are interchangeable and you don't feel obviously injuries pile up to a certain level, then you really do have to scrape the barrel and it becomes problematic. But as a whole, you should be happy enough with your squad that you do feel that you can swap players in and out and it doesn't disrupt you massively. And I think that is the story of what we're seeing at PSG at the moment. I mean Arsenal, Arsenal were unlucky last night, I think that's, that's fair to say. And the Thomas party long throws became monotonous and repetitive and they are that sort of weird weapon. I saw Rafinha taking them at Leeds United, if you can believe that. It was pretty short lived thing and a surprise to everybody. But you know, it is a, it is a weapon. But it does I think speak to what Liam was saying about just that lack of, of attacking variety up front of variation in the play. That needs to change. I mean the Mistrom Saka would have shaken things up in a big way. But at the same time I feel like the weight on him in that team is excessive. You know, too much is being asked of him and when the summer comes around by a nine, for goodness sake, you know, it's staring them in the face. And I don't think they can go beyond this window without doing is the final step for Arteta, isn't it? People probably read those comments from him before the second leg about how Arsenal effectively won two tit with the points tallies in the past two seasons. And he was joking a bit and I understand where he's coming from. In different years those totals would have been enough for the title. That's true, but I'm not sure why you'd say that. It's just sort of ammunition for people to ridicule you with and that builds the longer you go without winning anything serious. I don't think Arsenal's record of not getting over the line means he's doing a bad job. Liam made this point. He's done some great work at Arsenal, but there's nothing to show for it really. And no elite coach likes an empty record. And the longer it goes on, the more, more contentious it's going to get.
- [27:55]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, and I think that context is also important. You know, he's done a pretty decent job in clearing out a squad, rebuilding a squad and trying to make them competitive. But I mean, that's Champions League back to back, right? How would you class this season though, Real talk? How would you see this season? Is it successful? Is it progression? I mean, what, what, what kind of words can you throw in just to get a sense of what it feels like?
- [28:18]
Liam Tharman
It's really difficult because I feel like there was a point in the season where just as myself via an Arsenal, it got really, really tiresome at one point and that was just when the Premier League, you knew the Premier League had gone to, I guess Liverpool and the Champions League didn't seem like an attainable kind of goal that it came to be. And then once you beat PSV 7 1, you go on to beat Real Madrid. That's when the Champions League started to seem a bit more realistic. And I think think everyone was probably hanging their hats on that to save Arsenal season and it hasn't. But what I would say is in Europe there's definitely been an improvement because they've been a lot more consistent both home and away in the Champions League. So that's been something that you can kind of view as a tangible step forward that's been in the league phase and in the knockout stages. But then in the League I think, think it's another sideways step. As I said earlier, I wouldn't call it a real improvement and that's just because that they, they haven't been able to capitalize when say Liverpool drop points, they drop points and they haven't found any real consistency in I guess the way they've been able to attack in the league and that's really cost them. On Phil's point, on the number nine situation, I think it goes beyond Justin that, if I'm being totally honest. I think obviously if they had a striker, maybe they'd be more naturally inclined to be in a position when Saka's putting the ball across the six yard box to tap it in. But then I also feel like when you look at how a squad's built and you look at psg, if you look at their, their front line, the type of players that are in there, I think are so almost opposite to what Arsenal have and what a lot of English teams have in general because of the technical talent. And I spoke to Liam about this. When you look at Due and Dembele and then Rafinha at Barcelona, they all come through Rennes in France and Ligue 1, where I think there's a heavy emphasis on 1v1 dribbling and arsenal. And I think teams in England in general don't really thrive off that. And I think that's something that I guess the Premier League can learn from the French League, having more players that have that that ability to actually beat their man 1v1, but then also having an end product with that too. And I think you just saw the gulf in the type of player that thrives on the continent compared to in England, and I think that's something where not just Arsenal but English teams in general can take a real step forward.
- [31:08]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Right, next, let's see what the Gunners need to add to their Arsenal in order to take that final step.
- [31:16]
Amy Lawrence
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO in Walera.
- [31:22]
Adrian
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season. We'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code the Athletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM here. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 In New York, call 1-800-1-800, next step in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 In Massachusetts, 1, 800, bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet use bonus code theathletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [32:36]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost.
- [32:38]
Liam Tharman
And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost.
- [32:41]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying.
- [32:47]
Amy Lawrence
To get our lives right.
- [32:47]
Liam Tharman
Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.
- [32:55]
Amy Lawrence
And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around, superheroes from HuffPost.
- [33:02]
Liam Tharman
And amazing Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:07]
Cynthia
You know that feeling when a girl who gets it gives you a genuine compliment? Suddenly you're strutting through the streets, sending motivational voice notes to the group chat, manifesting a new man. That's the Tresemme Lamellar gloss effect, babe. It's an unstoppable kind of confidence reserved only for the real girls. Girls. And now we've bottled it. We're talking shampoo, conditioner, leave in cream, shine spray and a finishing oil that's seriously too glossy to gauge. Keep 72 hours of salon level shine. That's gloss that gives girl and it's available everywhere. So go out there, get glossy and give gloss with Tresemme's new Lamellar Gloss collection.
- [33:50]
Amy Lawrence
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akmolera.
- [33:57]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, so we've heard from Jordan Campbell. Also in Paris for the Athletic was our Arsenal correspondent Amy Lawrence. Let's hear her thoughts on why Arsenal fell short. End of the road for Arsenal. They didn't quite have enough and in the final reckoning, the difference is superiority in both boxes. Paris SA have a a way to be ruthless and clinical and Arsenal understandably, perhaps given long term injury situations up front and lack of investment in that part of the team are playing semi finals with a converted midfield player at centre forward and other players who maybe have just come back from injury or perhaps aren't quite able to have that consistency of elite finishing power and creativity. It gives an indication of what Arsenal have to do next. There's a value in learning, running and Arsenal can take a lot of fascinating aspects from this tie, from this whole European ride, see what's gone well, see what needs to be better, to try and take one more step, a couple more steps. But the hunger I think to do so is there and alive and. And fueling the club. Let's see what happens next. Yeah, if you want to hear more from Amy, go over and check out the Arsenal podcast, Handbrake off as well. Art makes a few appearances on that as well, if you. If you also want to know. Too right, Phil, I want to revisit this number nine thing because obviously Arsenal definitely have a big summer ahead of them, you know, with Arts Point in tow. You know, look at a team like psg. I mean, they didn't play with a natural number nine. Do you think that is the solution to change Arsenal's fortunes and number nine, and if, dare I say it, whichever number nine they get, I mean, what kind of pressure is going to be on their elders too?
- [35:53]
Phil Hay
They're structured in a different way, psg, aren't they? The way they approach football is different. I mean, dare I say that they're braver in the style of play than Arsenal and braver than the most as well. But it's funny how things look depending on where you sit and depending on the point in time. Because if I think back to pre Christmas and we were writing about PSG in the newsletter, the general theme was where is this project going? Because it doesn't seem to be working and they've got rid of all the big names, but it isn't really knitting together. And then suddenly you find yourself, myself, sitting thinking and talking about them as probably the best team in Europe and definitely with the most balanced midfield and with that attacking line which is just so fluid and so dangerous. So whether Arsenal really need what they've got is probably not the case because Arteta is going about this differently. But I do think that they need a 9. I also think from Arteta's point of view, the whole thing about the process, the process is something that leads to a finishing point, isn't it? And he's used that phrase as a way of buying patience, which is fair enough. But what he was effectively doing was promising a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and they haven't found it yet. And he's been around for a. For a long time. It's not going to be Alexander Isaac in the summer, because even if Newcastle had a price that they would name for him is going to be too expensive. The money just isn't going to be there to. To do it. But somebody like Benjamin Cisco or Victor Girkarish over at Sporting in Portugal, they do have to make something happen. It's not the solution to everything, but A prime European goalscorer would cover. Cover a base which I think needs and which has needed covering for a little while. I mean, Dembele is nine goals for Champions League goals for PSG this season. Saka has six for Arsenal, but that's coming from a position outweighed beyond that. You're talking Havertz with four and I think that does tell you something.
- [37:42]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, for sure. Let's. Let's look at Arsenal's work last summer and Phil's right, actually narrative could be interesting. Imagine if Arsenal ended up winning the the Premier League this season with the squad that they've got and all potentially go to the final of the Champions League. Then you're saying it's genius. Kai Havertz is fit. Oh, he's banged what, you know, seven or eight goals in the Champions League. Wow. But you know, how do you think, if we look back now, what do you think of the business Arsenal did last summer? Did they need that extra midfielder? The Califiore need to be in the squad?
- [38:12]
Liam Tharman
Yeah. So looking back, I still think they needed a midfielder. Again, it just comes down to the type of midfielder that you want. And I think for. For myself, the words that kind of screamed out to me in Amy's voice note, there was creativity because that's what I was getting at before the break. Basically players who can create something out of nothing, that's not what Arsenal have enough of. And when you're looking in those forward areas, they are very reliant on Bukayo Saka to do that. But after him, where's that player? It's not very obvious. And I think the player that became that was Ethan Wanieri. When Saka was injured, that was off the right wing, which isn't his preferred position. And then I think when you look at Saka getting injured, injured, when your only I guess cover is an 18 year old playing out of position, that's not the I guess position as a club that you want to be in. So I think you're probably looking at, say when you look at the summer they, I think maybe different profile of midfielder because Marino's best football this season has come as a nine, which wasn't expected. And then also not just myself, but other, other people who are familiar with Arsenal have been calling for, I guess wide cover for soccer for, for years. So it's not something that surprised a.
- [39:38]
Phil Hay
Question here of both you and Liam Art, what are you guys making of Odegaard at the moment?
- [39:43]
Liam Tharman
So for me he just strikes as someone who's thinking too much and I've said that, I said that last week. After the first leg, it seems whenever he gets the ball he's kind of tried to think, think two, three steps ahead and you can't really do that when you're in a game that's as fast paced as a Champions League semi final. And that's when you see moments where it just seems like he looks a bit lost. So for me it just seems like he's not really in flow as he was last season. When you look at all his football from last season, it was just so much more free and fluid. There are moments in the first leg and actually in the second leg where, where he gets the ball off Bukayo Saka and in your own head after watching him for three, four, five years, you're just expecting that return. Vorta Saka in behind and it doesn't come and it's so jarring to see. So yeah, for me it just seems like someone who is playing while they're not really in their groove and you're hoping that the summer's kind of a natural reset button for him because it's been a season to forget for him, really.
- [40:51]
Amy Lawrence
Yeah. There was a, there's a moment last night where he cut in from the right hand side and had about two or three touches where you think, oh, there's an angle on to shoot here. You could really have a go. And he ended up playing out wide to the left. I think it's. That's one of the big issues where you're talking about sort of arsenal needing a. A9 or not. They choose a different term. They need a goal score really is what they need. They're one of the only teams in the Premier League that haven't got a player on double digits. So Havertz is still top scorer on nine. The next lowest team to not have a double digits goal scorer is Everton. Way down obviously and in the bottom half. And it's, it's, yeah, all the teams lower down and even when they were sor title challenging, Arsenal had, you know, a real range of scores. Lots of players chipping in. Odegaard was joint top scorer with Martinelli a couple seasons ago. So I think he's an example of perhaps those right side dynamics really suffering a bit this season. You think about the old Odegaard, Ben White, Saka, sort of triangles where White would get on the overlap and suddenly you've got that sort of combination that I think you get the injuries and something I know Jordan mentioned to me earlier this season was it's not just having the injuries, but they've often then had players in secondary or sort of tertiary positions or roles and then then the impact is you don't really get that first choice combination all playing the same, same way they want to on the pitch at the same time, even if sort of most of them are sort of starting. So I think as Art's saying, sometimes even just by getting depth or rotation options in for someone like Saka, you can actually improve him as a player because he's not having to play sort of every single week. You can rotate a bit more and even then the benefit hopefully have competition to push a player on even further.
- [42:12]
Liam Tharman
Liam just reminded me of the Dembele goal in the first leg, actually, because after we were done recording last week, IO we mentioned how it wasn't the best finish ever, but it was a goal and it just seemed like a finish that he took instinctively. Didn't need to think. Of course it helps when you're both footed and you're so. You're so good off both feet, but I think you just saw someone who saw the ball and played what he saw, whereas Arsenal haven't. And this isn't just an Odegaard thing, but I think Arsenal collectively don't have players who just play what they see often enough.
- [42:49]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, Phil, that was literally to be to my final point really in terms of. I'm watching, watching Luis Enrique, I'm watching Michael Arteta and very different coaches in terms of experience in general. But I wonder if there's. There's something in there about the way Enrique can help improve players in that way. Like Donnarumma, we talk about Dembele just being that bit more ruthless in their position and perhaps that's the catch up. That Arsenal sort of evolving to be under Michael Arteta is that actually it's that efficiency and that ruthlessness that sometimes defines the teams that are going to go further on the long way as opposed to the teams that are still trying to figure out what that next step looks like. Looks like.
- [43:25]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I think this is it though. If you add a top class number nine to your squad, then you have someone who digs you out on nights where you need somebody to dig you out and sometimes that, that is necessary. It's not as if PSG have been flawless all season and it's not as if.
- [43:40]
Ayo Akimwaleere
And they weren't flawless yesterday either. Yeah, you're right.
- [43:42]
Phil Hay
Yeah, it's not. It's not as if Lewis, Enrique has been caning this from day one in the job. He's had to grow into it. I think if he needed a bit of a redemption arc, and I'm not sure he did because he's always been a really good coach, but he's certainly getting it at the moment. He's starting to be respected, I think as one of the best out there and deserves to be on the basis of the team that he's built. I'm not sure I ever see Arsenal under Arteta playing in the way that PSG are playing. You know, playing with that freedom and abandon and the risks that they do take. But they're not miles off Arsenal either. This is the thing. It hasn't been a bad season for them, but it is going to be a blank one and blank year after blank year. Does great on people. That's football.
- [44:23]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, sure. Right, Jens, let's leave it there. Leave all the Arsenal fans to lick their wounds, including me, Liam and Phil, thank you so much for your insight and also thank you guys for listening. Adam Laventhal will be with you tomorrow. We'll catch you next time.
- [44:37]
Amy Lawrence
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company produced.
- [44:57]
Ayo Akimwaleere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [45:05]
Cynthia
You know that feeling when a girl who gets it gives you a genuine compliment? Suddenly you're strutting through the streets sending motivational voice notes to the group chat, manifesting a new man. That's the Tresemme Lamellar gloss effect, babe. It's an unstoppable kind of confidence reserved only for the real girl girls. And now we've bottled it. We're talking shampoo, conditioner, leave in cream, Shine spray and a finishing oil that's seriously too glossy to gatekeep 72 hours of salon level shine. That's gloss that gives girl. And it's available everywhere. So go out there, get glossy and Give gloss with TRESemme's new Lamellar Gloss collection. When the Moore family ditched cable Internet and switched to Siddly fiber, they got so much more. Mr. Moore got more more upload speed for next level gaming and live streaming to the masses. With reliable service, Mrs. Moore is no longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime.
- [45:58]
Phil Hay
Let's go.
- [45:59]
Cynthia
And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing without freesight, the numbers look good.
- [46:06]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Brad, you're on mute.
- [46:07]
Cynthia
Switch from Cable Internet to Zibli Fiber.
- [46:09]
Adrian
And get more of what you love.
- [46:10]
Cynthia
For $65 less per month than cable@ziplyfiber.com.
- [46:14]
Brandon
This message comes from Green Greenlight Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest. With your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Green Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com listen greenlight.com listen.