Why do Spurs want Thomas Frank?

Summary

The Athletic FC Podcast: Why Do Spurs Want Thomas Frank?
Release Date: June 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Adam Leventhal delves into the recent managerial upheaval at Tottenham Hotspur. Following the club's landmark victory in the Europa League, ending a 17-year trophy drought, Spurs have parted ways with Ange Postecoglou. The episode explores the reasons behind this decision and discusses the potential appointment of Thomas Frank as the new head coach. Joining Adam are esteemed guests Jay Harris, Tottenham Hotspur writer, and Seb Stafford Bloor, a seasoned football analyst.

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Ange Postecoglou’s Departure

The podcast opens with reflections on Ange Postecoglou's tenure at Spurs. Seb Stafford Bloor shares his mixed feelings about the manager's exit:

“A little lost and conflicted because obviously I think for anybody roughly my age... Ange Postecogli will forever be associated with one of the high points of my Tottenham sporting life.”
[02:49]

While acknowledging Postecoglou's achievement in securing the Europa League, Seb emphasizes the underlying frustrations stemming from the team's poor league performance:

“Since that game [Spurs’ 4-1 defeat to Chelsea in November 2023], I think spurs have played 66 games in the Premier League, lost 34 times and taken 78 points... that's the third worst record in that time.”
[04:28]

Jay Harris adds a personal touch, sharing the emotional weight the trophy victory holds for supporters:

“When the full-time whistle went in Bilbao, a lot of Tottenham fans just burst into tears... it's very difficult to make a rational decision to have time for the kind of... 17th in the Premier League. I get it, I get it.”
[06:33]

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Balancing Emotion and Club Strategy

Seb delves deeper into the dilemma faced by Spurs' management:

“What matters more to you? Winning success, a football club... or being community, being associated and entwined with great moments in your life.”
[08:55]

He underscores the complex decision-making process where emotional highs from winning are weighed against consistent league performances. Adam Leventhal relates this to his experience as a Watford fan, highlighting how a single trophy can transcend the usual footballing concerns.

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The Role of Daniel Levy and Club Management

The conversation shifts to Daniel Levy's role in the decision to sack Postecoglou. Seb praises Levy's business acumen:

“I can't think of many occasions where Daniel Levy has made emotional decisions. Everything is a business decision...”
[12:56]

He speculates that Levy's decision to part ways with Postecoglou was influenced by the need to reset and avoid long-term financial strains:

“Hitting the reset button now allows Spurs to kinda revert to more of a type you don't have to go out and spend now because it's just another rebuild...”
[14:26]

---

Player Reactions and Managerial Relationships

Postecoglou's departure elicited strong reactions from key Spurs players. Seb highlights the support shown by players like Son Heung-Min and James Maddison:

“Guglielmo Vicario... said that from that very first call, Ange always showed so much belief in me.”
[17:06]

Despite reports of Postecoglou's detached management style, he managed to build strong bonds with certain players, fostering loyalty and mutual respect.

---

Potential Appointment of Thomas Frank

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Thomas Frank, currently Brentford's head coach, as the leading candidate to replace Postecoglou. Seb provides an in-depth analysis of Frank's suitability:

“Frank's tactically flexible... He uses whatever's at his disposal. He's not a football snob.”
[28:36]

However, he also raises concerns about Frank's lack of experience in European competitions and the challenges of transitioning from Brentford's structured environment to Spurs':

“Brentford are an incredibly well-run club... has he succeeded because he's a fantastic manager in a fantastic environment or is he a good manager in a fantastic environment?”
[30:10]

Jay Harris adds perspective on Spurs' recruitment strategies and the alignment between club departments, emphasizing the importance of a cohesive vision for Frank's potential tenure.

---

Challenges Ahead for Thomas Frank

Seb outlines the hurdles Frank might face at Spurs, including high expectations and the pressure to deliver immediate results:

“If you can deliver pretty quickly, if you can show competence, flexibility, tactical acumen... Ange Postecogli becomes this sort of historic legacy figure...”
[38:13]

He also touches upon the potential influence Frank could have on player acquisitions and squad development, drawing parallels with his time at Brentford.

---

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, both guests express cautious optimism about Spurs' future under Thomas Frank. Seb remains intrigued by Frank's ability to manage both upwards and downwards within the club hierarchy, while Jay emphasizes the importance of alignment and belief across all departments.

“It's going to be hard... but if you can deliver pretty quickly, I think people get on board very, very quickly.”
[40:48]

Adam concludes by acknowledging the complexities of the managerial change and reiterates the significance of this transition for Tottenham Hotspur’s future trajectory.

---

Key Takeaways

• Ange Postecoglou's Legacy: Despite winning the Europa League, Postecoglou's departure underscores ongoing frustrations with Spurs' league performance.

• Daniel Levy’s Strategic Decisions: Emphasizes business-oriented decisions aimed at long-term stability over short-term emotional successes.

• Thomas Frank as a Contender: While Frank's tactical flexibility and success at Brentford make him a strong candidate, questions remain about his adaptability to Spurs' unique challenges.

• Player Loyalty and Club Culture: Strong bonds between Postecoglou and key players highlight the importance of managerial relationships in team dynamics.

• Future Outlook: Spurs face a pivotal moment requiring cohesive club alignment and effective leadership to navigate the transition successfully.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Seb Stafford Bloor on Postecoglou’s Impact:
   “Postecogli's gone into the pantheon of Spurs greats. He's done something which nobody thought he could do.”
   [04:28]

2. Jay Harris on Emotional Significance of Victory:
   “17 years, you've won a trophy for the first time, but you finished 17th. You lost 22 Premier League games. That's unforgivable.”
   [06:33]

3. Seb Stafford Bloor on Thomas Frank’s Management Style:
   “Frank's tactically flexible... He uses whatever's at his disposal. He's not a football snob.”
   [28:36]

4. Seb Stafford Bloor on Club Alignment:
   “The conversation in football should never really be about is data good or not. It's not the right question.”
   [32:15]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of Tottenham Hotspur's recent managerial change, balancing emotional narratives with strategic analysis. Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of football management, the interplay between club leadership and player dynamics, and the challenges that lie ahead for Thomas Frank should he assume the role of Spurs' head coach.

Transcript

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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

[Adam Leventhal]

Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast. I'm Adam Leventhal. Tottenham have sacked the manager who delivered a first trophy in 17 years and spurs have won the Europa League. It's salvation for spurs in Bilbao and after a 17 year wait, they finally win a major trophy. So why has Postecoglou gone and is Thomas Frank the man to replace him with me? Today we have the Athletics, Tottenham Hotspur writer Jay Harris and Seb Stafford Bloor. Before we get stuck into this gents, I just wanted just a short sort of elevator pitch of how you're feeling the fact that Ange is no longer the Tottenham manager, let's start with You, Seb, how are you feeling about this?

[Instacart Advertiser]

A little lost and conflicted because obviously I think for anybody roughly my age, just I'm 40, about to turn 41, Ange Postecogli will forever be associated with one of the high points of my Tottenham sporting life. And yet, you know, there is a very solid argument as to why he should have been relieved of his duties. And so it's a very strange moment. Doesn't really bear much of a description at the moment.

[Adam Leventhal]

Jay, how are you feeling that you're not going to see Ange when those press conferences start again?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Not massively surprised that he's gone. A tiny bit relieved in a sense, just because it feels like this had been hanging over Postecoglou and Spurs pretty much since the beginning of the year. Felt like this was probably always going to happen. The Europa League final victory changed things slightly, but there is a little bit of sadness. Me and Postecoglou didn't always get on, I think it's fair to say, but I think there was a mutual respect between us and he said he'd win a trophy in his second season, then he did it. So I was actually intrigued to see what he would have done in that third year. But it's not going to happen.

[Adam Leventhal]

You weren't alone in having a bit of a sort of an abrasive relationship with him. I think he sort of. He did have his jousts along the way, didn't he? So let's just rewind a second Friday evening we get confirmation that spurs have parted company with Ange Postecoglou. And that meant that we got a big read on the Athletic, a big insiders read about exactly what happened. One of those big juicy ones that you can get your teeth into. And it was entitled why Tottenham sacked Ange Postecogli, the manager who ended their 17 year trophy drought. That's the question to start off with Jay, why? Why did they get rid of him?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

In the statement that spurs put out on Friday, they alluded to the league form and in the eyes of many spurs supporters, Sebs just alluded to it. The league form this season is irrelevant now. Postecogli's gone into the pantheon of spurs greats. He's done something which nobody thought he could do. Yes, it wasn't prettiest of football at times, on the way to the Europa League final victory, but it doesn't really matter. They won and there were so many injuries this season. It's something we reported back on in January time that it was just Relentless. And there were loads of different factors between it. So it felt like there were a lot of caveats for why the league season had been bad, Europa League had been good. But I said this multiple times, spurs needed to take a step back and not make an emotional decision. If you look at their league form over the last 18 months, it's been horrendous. And the sort of sliding doors moment, for want of a better word, is going to be that infamous 41 defeat to Chelsea in November 2023, when it felt like the entire footballing community was watching that Monday Night Football game. When it became 9 vs 11, all the spurs players were on the halfway line and Chelsea were just trying to chip it over the top for Nicholas Jackson to run onto it. And at the time, some people looked at it as, chelsea are ridiculously silly. It took them so long to work out how to beat Spurs. Other people said, fair play to Postecoglou. He's so wedded to his principles, he's not going to change anything. I think in the end that became a weakness. Since that game, I think spurs have played 66 games in the Premier League, lost 34 times and taken 78 points. If you ignore the six relegated teams, that's the third worst record in that time. So Postecogli would tell you that the league season was bad this year.

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Really.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

It's been something that's been going on for 18, 20 months.

[Adam Leventhal]

So, Seb. Yeah. Let's look at this. Yes. 17 years, you've won a trophy for the first time, but you finished 17th. You lost 22 Premier League games. That's unforgivable. Daniel Levy has done what he should have done. Do you want to support that or do you want to argue against it?

[Instacart Advertiser]

I will. I won't argue against it. I'll offer some counterpoints. I think Postecoglosy's worth is measured in a few different ways. And one of them is, and I think this would be true pretty much of any Tottenham fan you could speak to. When the full time whistle went in Bilbao, a lot of Tottenham fans just burst into tears. A lot of people I know had exactly the same reaction. And I think Danny Kelly said this on View from the Lane. He said, I didn't know how much I was carrying around with me until that happened. And I was speaking to one of my good friends last night. I won't name him, but he was in Bilbao and he said, I was sobbing at full time. Because in those 17 years, Kate, one part of it is the football story. Right. The thing, the games you've lost, the disappointments you've dealt with, but also life, because that's a really long period in anybody's life. And postecoglou can't be separated from what is a. Something I'll probably never feel again. Right. I'm 40 years old. If I wait another 41. I don't know. I was a smoker for 15 years. I don't know. Right. But, like, it's very difficult to make a rational decision to have time for the kind of. Yeah, but 17th in the Premier League. I get it, I get it. Of course I do. But then you come back to this point and there isn't really a way of winning this argument. What matters more to you? Winning success, a football club, being community, being associated and entwined with great moments in your life, moments you remember forever. You remember exactly how you felt those specific moments. Because to me, that's football. At the same time, for a lot of other people, including, I would dare say everybody who owns and works at a football club, what matters more is finishing sixth or seventh, guaranteeing a revenue in a major European competition, and moving forward, having the stability which allows you to strategically plan year to year. I get it, but it's about which side of that you fall on, and that's up to the individual fan. For me, I would take 17th and a European trophy for every season for the rest of my life, but that's just my opinion. And also bear in mind, Adam, Tottenham fans have had the Premier League stability and no trophy thing for a long time. Like all the way through the Maurizio Pochettino era. His achievements were kind of invalidated by talking heads on TV and radio describing how actually it didn't really mean anything because he hasn't won anything. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter like what? Success. So you can't really win. So as a supporter, you go with the thing that makes you feel happier and the thing which is richer, and that is the trophy. So. But this is my opinion. I'm sure everybody else has a different.

[Adam Leventhal]

One, but I think it holds a lot of weight to your opinion, because that is what it is like for a lot of supporters. I, as a. As a Watford fan, for example, have never seen my team win a major trophy. And if it happened, I would probably feel like you in that moment, like the Crystal palace fans that we saw winning the FA Cup. It was. It was fantastic. And it. It takes you beyond the. The mundanity of. Of being a football fan. And are we going to finish here. Are we going to qualify for this? If you've been doing it time and time again? One person I wanted to bring in on this conversation because he's mentioned in Jack Pitt Brooks article which included, you know, additional reporting from, from Jay as well, was a guy called Jeremy Conrad who bumped into Ange Postecoglou when he was on holiday after winning the Europa League. And he wrote him a letter. And I suppose it sums up what you were saying, that he said Wednesday, 21 May will forever be etched in our collective psyche. It made us smile wider, walk taller and laugh louder. You've orchestrated a generational shift in how we feel about our club and how others view us. And Jay, it was interesting when Ange was on top of that bus and speaking to the fans and he said, you know, and I'll tell you something.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

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[Adam Leventhal]

Do you think that there is an argument that it was such a big change for them to win a cup, that things could very, very, very reasonably have been completely different next season? Or is that just pie in the sky thinking?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

It's so hard to tell. I think one thing that's important to point out is that if you rewind, 12 months ago spurs, you know, broke their club record to sign Dominic Solanke, but otherwise they didn't do that much in a transfer window. And everybody said at the beginning of the season that this squad looked quite lightweight in some areas. And that's exactly what happened when the injury crisis hit. Giglio Vicario fractured his ankle in November against Man City and Fraser Forster, who was a leader in the dressing room and well respected in the dressing room, is now playing six, seven Premier League games in a row. And I don't think that's a situation that spurs wanted to be in and that's why they signed Kinski in. In January you had Lucas Betterval and Archie Gray join in the summer. Two very talented 18 year olds, but 18 years old, coming from the Swedish top flight in the championship. They needed time to go into the team. So there's an argument that the team went through a lot of pain this year. There was a lot of development. Some players have kicked on massively. So this experience of winning the Europa League and sort of grinding through all these hurdles with injuries probably would have brought them closer together. And with the Champions League, would they have been able to ramp up their recruitment a little bit more this summer, would they have been able to get the players that they missed out on last summer. Would they have been able to reset and go again? Quite possibly. I think it just comes down to the fact that Postecoglou's whole philosophy is plan B is do plan A better. And I just think there were times where in the league he just got found out there were too many games where he was slow to make changes and substitutions. The Free two defeat to Brighton in October is the perfect example of that. There were two zero up at halftime. Brighton scored I think three goals in 20 minutes and the game was done. For me personally, there were just too many moments like that. So yes, the emotional weight of Bilbao and winning that trophy I think would have united everybody. But my fear was that this would have been very similar to the 10HAG FA cup final situation where by October spurs haven't started particularly well and all the rumours about Postecogli's future just come up all over again and you're sort of just stuck in this cycle and eventually Postecogli goes seb.

[Adam Leventhal]

Do you sort of agree with that? Do you think that being able to detach emotion, I'm talking about Daniel Levy here, was the right thing to do because he had a recent example at, at Manchester United?

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Yeah, I mean I can't think of many occasions where Daniel Levy has made emotional decisions. Everything is a business decision, right? Like it's, it's always about trying to get a one up on a. On another club or being the smartest person in the room. So I didn't expect an emotional decision. I also, I think one of the. And it's, it's an interesting point because I think with the success Postecoglou got a mandate because I think had the summer passed and he not received major investment after not just winning a trophy, but of course securing the Champions League revenue stream, I think that puts a lot of pressure on Daniel Levy by hitting the reset button. I'm not saying this is why it's been done, but I think hitting the reset button now allows spurs to kind of revert to more of a type you don't have to go out and spend now because it's just another rebuild, another rebuild. And so you can probably get away with a little bit more of softly, softly behavior through the transfer market. Market. And yeah, you can definitely make a case that Postecogly having that mandate would not necessarily be a good idea because had this been the moment when spurs start to spend, which I'm not sure that would have happened based on Levy's statements. Right. Regarding the kind of the finances a couple of weeks ago, had that been the case and had it not worked out then that's potentially something which deflates a club's tires for the next five years. So yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to hand out credit for non emotional decisions because I don't know what that would look like. But the reasons for doing it stack up.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, well next we're going to be discussing what the reaction of these spurs players tells us about Postecoglou's exit.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal.

[Adam Leventhal]

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[Adam Leventhal]

So after an Postecoglou had gone, we were waiting to see, as we always do with managers leaving, whether any of the players were going to pin their colours to the mast. And we saw two prominent people do that in that spurs dressing room. In particular, Son Heung Min, James Madison, very supportive, very sympathetic towards him. What have you made of the public shows of support? We've got two high profile ones there, but, you know, there will have been others as well. Jay.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Yeah, so the one that jumped out to me as well was Guglielmo Vicario. Basically saying that from that very first call. Paul, right from the beginning, you always showed so much belief in me. And Solanke said something very similar. And we had heard stories before that Postecogli is very persuasive when he's telling players to. To join a club. It's really interesting. He's obviously done something for this group of players which Brendan Johnson was talking about it and so was Mickey Van de Ven, both before and after the final, that when they joined spurs, lots of people were joking to them, saying, are you going to be trophyless for the rest of your career now? And that clearly was a weight on these players. So for Postecoglou to tell them, even when their form is awful in the league and lots of people scouting them, that they're still going to get there, they're still going to do it must have been quite powerful for them. I do think it's interesting because throughout the season, you know, we've heard lots of different stories about Postecoglou's demeanor on the training ground. We've heard that he's not the most cuddly of characters, shall we say. He often watches training from the sidelines and he gets his assistants to do it. He likes to have that cold, hard separation from the players. He doesn't want to build a relationship with them. So he's much more clear focused on who should and shouldn't be in the squad. He's not making an emotional decision based on his relationship with a player, but clearly that's not mattered. He still managed to cut through and build strong bonds with these players. You know, there was a video package of, you know, families sending in nice messages before the Europa League final. And clearly all those things have just really connected this, this squad with the manager in a way, which, which has taken me by surprise slightly. And, and Son is an interesting one as well because Son's underperformed this season. It's fair to say Imposter Kogu's inherited quite like a. A tricky scenario about how to phase him out. But as you've mentioned, Son's referred to him as a legend forever. Son's worked under lots of managers with, let's say, a higher pedigree than Postecoglou in Mourinho, Pochettino, Conte, etc, but he's the one that's got it done. So clearly there's a really strong bond.

[Adam Leventhal]

What's your take on it, Seb?

[Instacart Advertiser]

I think it's quite difficult to separate what we'll call kind of the. The sincere, you know, shows of appreciation. I think you guys have mentioned some of them there. I think a lot of what was. What has been read has been, you know, written with Sinceri. I think these things become a little bit self fulfilling in the days after sacking though, because eventually there's a sort of tipping point in which you realise why who hasn't done one, who hasn't gone to Instagram and put the kind of the gushing post on there. And so beyond that point it's very hard to know what's being done for PR or appearances sake. But I think, especially with some of the younger players, I think if you look at Barival, for instance, I think a different coach, say Antonio Conte was Tottenham coach this season and had been faced with the same crippling injury crisis. I don't think Barival plays. I think it's a kind of. Yeah, but he's. He'll be somebody else's problem in three or four years. I'm not dealing with the kind of the rough edges in his game and the naivetes. And I think to Postecoglo's credit, he allowed Berrivel to play, allowed him to make mistakes because the season wasn't perfect and allowed everybody just to focus on what a wonderful, talented footballer he is already, but is going to be in the future. And I think that was the value of his management. And I can very well believe what Lucas wrote on Instagram or X or whichever medium it was. And Vicari, the same I spoke to, spoke to him in pre season in Korea and he was talking about some of the criticism that he faced last season around his dealing with set pieces and how he kind of became a topic of conversation in the national media. And he talked about his gratitude towards his coach and how much confidence he was given and how much support he was provided with. And so, yeah, I can believe it. I just think, you know, it does always happen. I think you have to take these things with a little pinch of salt.

[Adam Leventhal]

Jay, I just wanted to put this to you because obviously when we were watching the sort of gradual demise of Ange Postecoglou, a Lot of people will have seen a lot of the stuff that was put on social media, clipped up bits of his press conferences or his post match interviews where it was reporter against him and it was him defending himself in a way. Was that advantageous to that dressing room that it was all about Ange? Almost. Do you think that, you know, elsewhere in the news conferences he was also being very protective of those players and him putting it on himself was very much a technique that some managers use. Let's put it on me and we don't need to worry about the dressing room.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Yeah. He did say, I think way back in January when we first started reporting about the, the injury crisis that was going on and lots of other issues. He said, if anybody's looking for a head in a stick, take mine. He was so clear from minute one that he had this massive responsibility on his shoulders and I don't think he ever really tried to place the blame on anybody else. And it's something which is quite noticeable at spurs compared to other clubs is that the manager's the only person who tends to speak. Other clubs you do hear from the sporting director, whether it's in an interview or it' stuff on the club's in house media channels, you do seem to hear from them a little bit more. Whereas I think Johan Langer, who's the sporting director has done a couple of in house interviews after a transfer window. But otherwise it's basically all on Postecoglou, which is a little bit unfair. Of course he is partially to blame for some of the injury situation, but it's not completely in his hands. Eat. Basuma is really interesting that just before the Europa League final there was a media day and Postecoglou called out Basuma quite that publicly in, in March and said that he sometimes lets the game drift him by and that was that occasion. And then when Postecogly criticized Werner are the only times this season I think where he's gone in on a player individually. But Basuma said, you know, I've still got a wonderful relationship with the manager. He always defends us and I thought that was quite intriguing. He's actually publicly criticized you, but still you feel as if the vast majority of the time he's defending you in the right way. And I'm sure Sebastian would agree. Postecoglou could say some really interesting philosophical things in press conferences and I was there once and he said one of the big things winning the Europa League would do for spurs is change how they view themselves internally. It doesn't matter what fans of other clubs think, it matters what spurs supporters think. And I was sat there thinking, you know, he's actually got a very good point here. He took the entire club's responsibility on his shoulders. He defended the fan base, he defended the players, he defended the wider club. And so I do think the players probably really bought into the fact that every opportunity this guy was just laser focused on winning something and protecting the club's values and talking up the club's values. And I think that's sometimes why he got defensive. When people chipped away at that, he'd just fire right back at them.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, well, let's talk about what does come next. And Jay, you wrote last week about the need for clarity. We now know as David Ornstein has been reporting that Tottenham are in contact with Brentford about Thomas Frank. How have we got to this point then?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Well, as far back as March, myself and Jack Pitt Brook were reporting that Postecoglou's long term future was in serious doubt and that Thomas Frank was a potential option along with Marco Silva and Bulmas Andoni Iriola. At the time we were being told that Iriola was the number one target, but it looks like he's gonna, he's gonna stay at Bournemouth. So it's just emerged that Thomas Frank is the leading contender. I think we're now at a stage where we expect Frank to to be confirmed as the spurs manager. Not know when that's going to happen and I think at this point in time there probably still needs to be negotiations about how much it's going to cost to get him out of Brentford, which members of his backroom staff go with him. But it just feels like all roads are heading in one direction and it's going to be Frank ending his near nine with Brentford seven as head coach to join Spurs.

[Adam Leventhal]

We're going to get stuck into this in more detail in a moment, but just Seb, I want you to take me into your mind and tell me when you hear Thomas Frank, Tottenham manager, how does that make you feel?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Yeah.

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If we explore those dark recesses, we have two reactions. The first is I've got all the admiration in the world for Thomas Frank as a coach. I think he's a terrific coach and I think what he's done at Brentford often is kind of understated. When you look at what he's had resource wise versus what he's been able to achieve. I think he's done miraculously well. And you know, look back to where Brentford were. We now just consider them a Premier League team? Well, he put them there. The other thing I'd say, and this is not really connected to Thomas Frank and this is nothing really to do with him and it shouldn't detract from his candidacy, but he is a candidate for the Tottenham job because he's overperformed with a team that is not spending a lot of money. And that's why he is top of Tottenham's list. And so if you look this season, I think by the time the financial results are made clear or the kind of the data is shown, I think Tottenham are spending around the seventh or eighth highest amount on wages. So if you add Frank into that, then the cynical part of you as a fan goes, well, okay, but that's because the club want to continue spending at that level, but perhaps finish sixth or fifth in the Premier League and that's quite an underwhelming feeling. Whether that's realistic or not doesn't matter. You have to remember sport is coming off the back of winning a European final and going to the Champions League. And so, you know, to go from that to we're back into kind of finish above what we pay fc, that's quite difficult. But I, you know, if you're going to get someone of that ilk, let it be Thomas Frank. He's a brilliant coach. I don't know nearly as much about him as Jay does, but all the sort of the, the human bits of, of his coaching that I've seen that have been shown being made public are incredibly impressive too. And so many of seem to speak positively about him. Then it's a great appointment. But I think again, you can't ignore that second part, that sort of impulsive response to it because spurs have been here a lot of times before.

[Adam Leventhal]

Okay, we'll have more on Thomas Frank's suitability to succeed postecoglou next.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal.

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[Adam Leventhal]

So, as Seb said before the break, Jay, you spent three years covering Brentford under Thomas Frank. I've asked Seb about his suitability. What do you think?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

I'm quite glad that he's about to receive this opportunity. I think it's overdue. He's come quite close to leaving Brentford on quite a few occasions. You know, Aston Villa were interested in him at one point. Manchester United and Chelsea liked him last summer. So it feels like he's been sort of patiently waiting. And as Seb alluded to earlier, Brentford are now going to be heading into a fifth season in the Premier League, which is remarkable when you look at their, their resources and you look at the players they've lost during that time to keep improving and, and keep building is, is fantastic. The, the main thing for me is that Frank's a lot more tactically flexible than Postecoglou. We already mentioned at the beginning of this pod that Postecoglou had this philosophy. He was, you know, strictly wedded to, you know, four, three, three fullbacks pushing high up the pitch, you know, wingers basically getting to the byline and whipping crosses back into the penalty spot area. I think I've seen Frank experiment from time to time in the Premier league. Their first two years they were using a 3, 5, 2. You know, you had Tony and Buma up front, David Rea kicking the ball, long throw ins. I remember Brentford beat Watford at Vicarage Road once via a throw in and we were next to each other and you weren't too happy about it. I bring that up not to wind you up, but to point out that Frank uses whatever's at his disposal. He's not a football snob. Brentford have been good on set pieces, good on long thrones, but also very good at playing out from the back and that's what they've evolved into. They now play more of a 4 to 2, 3, 1. You know, Visser and Bumo and Kevin Charter have been fantastic this season. They've all reached double figures in the Premier League. They're also very different strikers to Ivan Toney who was a different striker to Ollie Watkins who was different to Neil Mope. So Thomas Frank knows how to adapt and seems to be able to get the, the best out of different players. I think my slight concern is that, well, there are two slight concerns. One, he's never experienced European football before. I think he got into the preliminary rounds, Europa League when he was in charge of Bronby back in the day. Drop straight into the Champions League is going to be a test. And having to play multiple games a week. I think Brentford played 41, 42 games in the Premier in all competitions last season. Spurs had 60. So that's a big step up in intensity. And then the other aspect of it which we shouldn't overlook is Brentford are an incredibly well run club. They've had that consistency from the owner Matthew Benham, the director of football Phil Giles and the technical director Lee Dykes. They've got, got so many good processes and the structure and the strategy in place. Thomas Frank's admitted before that many managers or head coaches could be a success at Brentford because of the environment and culture that's built there. So has Thomas Frank succeeded because he's a fantastic manager in a fantastic environment or is he a good manager in a fantastic environment? And they've raised him to another level. I think that's going to be very interesting to see. He's massively helped at spurs by the fact that the sporting director Johan Langer, who I mentioned earlier, they're both from Denmark, they both worked at a Danish club called Lingbe together two decades ago. So he's going in with a pre existing relationship which I think will be crucial to his chances of success and long term survival. But he does not have the same safety net that he has at Brentford. You know, Thomas Frank lost eight of his first 10 games at Brentford. If he does that at Spurs, I don't, I think we can all confidently say he won't last long.

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I think Jay makes a really good point. So my, my Tottenham fan brain goes back to Wande Ramos when he was appointed, because that was at the time Wando Ramos was extremely well thought of because of what he'd achieved at Sevilla. And yet spurs appointed him without really, it seemed, doing their due diligence on what had made him successful there. Because Wando Ramos at the time was really a product of so many things being done well at Sevilla, including recruitment, that when he came to spurs, he couldn't replicate any of that success because the conditions weren't the same. And so you do worry about that a little bit. The other question I had, and I'm not sure why, what kind of where this is going is Jay mentioned the alignment at a club like Brentford where all the different departments seem to complement each other and that seems to be the root of the success with the head coach as the employee at the center of it becoming the kind of the public face of it now to me, like it's interesting that for instance, that just a year after being appointed, Scott Manners being let go, he's already gone. Yes, Johann Lange's there, but there remain rumors that Fabio Perthecci is on his way back. Now that's a little bit of a red flag to me because you have a data orientated person like Lang and then you have a deals guy and a connections guy like Paratici versus a new coach who has thrived in a data led system before and who is very open minded towards it now. The conversation in football should never really be about is data good or not. It's not the right question. The right question is does everybody believe in what you're trying to do or not? And, and if that alignment doesn't exist at spurs, it's not going to work. It's just not going to work. So those are the questions that I have. Maybe there are solutions that the club have not made public yet that will reveal themselves in time. I hope so. But it shouldn't take too much to accept that Frank, and I mean this in no way to be kind of a denigration of what he's achieved. He's a product of his environment and that's a compliment to Brentford and Spurs should heat that that there has been.

[Adam Leventhal]

A lot of churn, hasn't there, in terms of recruitment at spurs over the last few years. Obviously you mentioned Paratici. Lang's come in. Jay, from, from your point of view, do you think that Frank will be able to make his own mark now he's ready to step up?

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Yeah, I hope so. I think again what we should point out is that Frank is very good at managing uppers as, as well as managing down and managing a squad. Like I said, he has a fantastic relationship with, with Matthew Benham, Lee Dykes and Phil Giles. And of course I'm sure they would have argued over signings over the years, but they've always come to the right conclusion. Having Langer on side will help. Certainly some of spurs, his Signings over the last couple of years have been pinched under the noses of Brentford anyways. People like Brennan Johnson and Archie Gray. Brentford followed and Bid made multiple bids for over over the years. So there's a clearly see a degree of similarity. If you look at what spurs have done since Langer was appointed as sporting director, which I off the top of my head was November 2023, there's been a real focus on signing players under the age of 23. So Antonin Kinski from Slavia, Prague, Baraval, Archie Gray Solanke is probably the exception to that rule. So they've got a very young squad. You've got Wilson, Oliver, Matisse tell if he joins permanently from Bayern Munich. And that's basically what Thomas Frank has been doing at Brentford for his entire time. He's been taking players under the age of 23 and developing them. He's done it with David Raya, Visser, Mbumo, Ivan, Toney Keen, Lewis Potter, Nathan Collins. You just need to switch the names over. He's going to be working with a better quality of player in more testing circumstances. You know, Mikkel Damsgaard's been a revelation for Brentford this season, but his first two years were really underwhelming and really difficult as he negotiated a new culture, a new country and a really complicated injury history because he's got an arthritic condition. So in an environment like Brentford, you can sort of be patient with a player like Dams. God, you can allow them and give them the time and space to breathe and eventually grow and become. I think he got 10 assists in the Premier League this season, which was the third or fourth best record. I don't think Thomas Frank would get the same time and space to do that with a player at Spurs. The demands are different. So yes, he'll work in the sense that his development background, you know, used to be Denmark's under 15s, under 16s coach will help him with the project, but also he needs to get results quickly and those sort of things. It's difficult for them to coexist. So how he balances that will sort of determine whether he's a success or a failure.

[Adam Leventhal]

Jay, is he going to potentially be key in bringing Brian and Bumo with him, do you think? Because obviously we've reported and we had on a recent podcast David Ornstein talking about Manchester United edging closer to signing Brian and Boomer. Could this be a spanner in the works for. For Manchester United? And Thomas just goes, no, no, no, come with me. We know each other and we can. We can settle in together. Come and keep me company.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Possibly. I'm not entirely convinced that will be the case. I think Mbumos has interested Tottenham even before this Frank. Well, I know Frank's not confirmed yet, but we very much think it's going in that direction. But I think spurs have liked him for a long time regardless. I don't know if he would be enough to sway them because Mbumo's a great player. But. But Brennan Johnson is Spurs Europa League final winning hero. He scored that goal. I think there are question marks about Brennan Johnson's game, but I also think that maybe that was down to the. The way that Androposakoglou wanted him to play in that system. He wanted him to stay high and wide. So I do wonder if Thomas Frank will look at Brennan Johnson, a player he was desperate to sign for Brentford over the course of about two years from Nottingham Forest, if actually he'll say, I love to work with Brendan Johnson. I don't, don't need Mbuemo on the right wing as well. I've got Brendan Johnson there. I'm going to be more focused on improving and developing him. I'd almost argue spurs need to look at the left wing more because you've got son tell Odebear Mikey Moore none of them are peak age players. Lots of them are development players. Son's on the decline. I think that's probably a bigger issue than bringing in and Buemo who might just block Johnson's path.

[Adam Leventhal]

And Seb, a question to you. Having come from a cosier club like Brentford, a smaller club like Brentford, do you think Thomas Frank will deal with the tumble dryer of Tottenham? Well, yeah.

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I mean, I've never seen anything which makes me think he wouldn't. I think he seems to be a really balanced person. I think he seems thoughtful and intelligent. His man management is very good. I don't think there are a lot of egos at Tottenham. So I don't think kind of. I mean, there is a little bit of a difference in playing staff in terms of what some of those players are earning. Yes, but I don't think you're talking about going from Brentford to Real Madrid. It's not that. I think where the difficulty lies is not really in how he handles it, but the situation. Because when the new season starts there are going to be a lot of people in the stadium who still hanker after anepostecoglou and are still kind of emotionally in Bilbao. That's really, really hard. And so in Many ways. Whilst Tottenham have had worse teams, isn't that the truth? In my four decades, and they've had worse positions and they haven't been playing Champions League football, you could probably make a case that this is one of the hardest times to become a new Tottenham coach in recent memory. And I think that's the thing that he has to overcome. And what I will say, though is I think if you can deliver pretty quickly, if you can show competence, flexibility, tactical acumen, knock over a couple of big teams in the Champions League in the autumn, I think people get on board very, very quickly and Ange Postecogli becomes this sort of historic legacy figure who allows this new era to happen. And I think there are a few people far smarter than me making this point during Postecoglou's reign where they said, well, this might be the kind of. The cultural reset, full of all the kind of inefficiencies and flaws that you need to move towards something a little bit more sustainable in the future. And I think. I think perhaps it doesn't take much to convince people that is in fact, the direction and that is in fact, Postecoglou's place in Tottenham history alongside the Europa League trophy. So, yeah, it's going to be hard, though. And I think also Tottenham summers are really difficult, really, really hard, because I think it's only June and people are already a little bit nervous. We're already hearing conversations, starting with comments like, well, we haven't done anything for two weeks and look at what Man City are doing and Liverpool are about to sign Florian Wirtz and they've already sign Jeremy Fringpong, etc, etc. Totem have done nothing and it does not take much for people to get really, really nervous and really, really negative. And yeah, these are. These are difficulties, but you can't know. You can't know. Antonio Conte did not deal well with being Tottenham head coach. Jose Mourinho did not deal well with it, but Ochettino did, but less so over time as it became clear that he wasn't perhaps going to get the backing that he wanted to. Nuno didn't deal well with that. You can't know until someone's in situ.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Adam replacing Poglu is really, really tricky. Like I said, he had started badly at Brentford and he also started badly at Bronby. I don't think he won any of his first eight games, so not exactly giving him a ringing endorsement right now. I think what helps him is that there's no international competition this summer. So he will be able to go into preseason and they go on tour to Hong Kong and Korea. But I think they're only there for a week, which is shorter than last year when they went for two. He will still get a significant chunk of time to, to work with these players at early doors. Whereas last year, I can remember, a lot of spurs players were all over the place. You know, Romero got to the Copa America final, lots of players got to the, you know, the latter stages of the Euros, including Mickey Van de Ven. So I think that will help. Thomas Frank, I'm intrigued to see how he handles the media because like I said, covered him for three years and he was always fantastic, very warm, very friendly. But a lot of the time there were not that many people in those press conferences, especially for Brentford away games. It often be me, the only Brentford reporter at Spurs. He's going to have 10, 12 people turn up every Friday to hear his thoughts. It's going to go on for ages. We're going to pick over the same wounds over and over again and it'll be interesting to see if he still bats those sort of questions away and deals with it well, or if that step up in focus and scrutiny, if he finds that a little bit more challenging. You know, he said multiple times, he said it in an interview with me before, that he's had close to the perfect football life at Brentford and that he'd only leave if it was for a special project. It's fair to say spurs will be a special project. It's going to. Going to be a difficult one and it. I don't think he'll have close to the perfect football life anymore, but I think he'll have the right attitude and try to make a success of it.

[Adam Leventhal]

I hadn't thought of that until you said it, Jay, but, you know, if Brian Bumo doesn't join him, at least he'll have, have you there, welcome him to the, to the club. He'll. He'll see you in the, in the news conference and he'll go, ah, Jay, it's so good to see you. So it's not going to be that much of a shift for him. He's got friends, he's got friends opposite him in a press conference.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

I have had a few Brentford fans message me on, on social media and say, you know, can we get you back? Because otherwise, spurs have nicked our athletic reporter, they've nicked Archie Gray and they've nicked Thomas Frank. This did make me like.

[Adam Leventhal]

Well, look, it's been great to get both of your insights. Jay. Thanks very much. And thanks to Seb as well. Thanks very much for listening. Remember, the Athletic FC Podcast is with you three days a week throughout the summer. Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. So we will see you on Wednesday.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Ailey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts.

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For free, search for the Athletic on.

[Seb Stafford Bloor]

Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.

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The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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