Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
Salesperson
As a salesperson, the search for the right buyer or buying groups can feel like you're endlessly sifting through leads and hoping they're ready to buy. Thankfully, LinkedIn Sales Navigator is more than just a tool, it's your strategic sales partner. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is a sales intelligence platform that helps professionals effectively prospect and engage high value customers, drive higher revenue and increase sales performance. Sales Navigator helps you target the right buyers, surface key signals such as job changes or which accounts you should prioritize, and shows you hidden allies so that you can find those buyers that are most likely to convert. Whether you're looking for new clients or strengthening relationships of current accounts, LinkedIn Sales Navigator has new AI features designed to help sellers find the right people and get right to the right conversations, all at scale. Fueled by LinkedIn's 1 billion-member platform, Sales Navigator gives you the most up to date first party data, enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Ready to get right to the right conversations? Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a 60 day free trial at LinkedIn.com NBashow23 that's LinkedIn.com MBashow23 for a 60 day free trial. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:22]
1-800-Flowers Ad
This Mother's Day show the moms in your life just how much they mean to you with a stunning bouquet from 1-800-flowers.com for almost 50 years, 1-800-flowers has set the standard for high quality bouquets. Right now, order early from 1-800-flowers and save up to 40% on gorgeous bouquets and one of a kind arrangements guaranteed to make her day. Save up to 40% today at 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers.Com acast. The official florist of Mother's Day.
- [01:54]
Acast
Acast.
- [01:55]
Podcast Host
Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [02:02]
Ayo Akimwalere
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
- [02:04]
Acast
Or taping songs off the radio? How about Saturday morning cartoons?
- [02:08]
Podcast Host
Hey AOL chat rooms.
- [02:11]
Acast
Did we just age ourselves? Yep, we're Mike Finnoya and Charles McBee.
- [02:15]
Podcast Host
Two comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging question.
- [02:19]
Salesperson
Are we old?
- [02:20]
Acast
Relive the laughs, the cringes and the nostalgia.
- [02:24]
Phil Hay
Are we old?
- [02:24]
Ayo Akimwalere
Podcast Right here on Acast.
- [02:37]
Podcast Host
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [02:48]
Salesperson
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:54]
Jack Pickbrook
Hello.
- [02:55]
Ayo Akimwalere
And welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere, England have chosen a permanent successor to Gareth Southgate.
- [03:02]
David Ornstein
I'm very excited to start this journey in January with the staff at St. George's park and at Wembley, and of course, with a very special and exciting group of players to make our dream come true in America.
- [03:17]
Ayo Akimwalere
So why has Tuchel been chosen and does he offer the best chance of winning the World Cup? I'm joined by the Athletics football correspondent David Ornstein and our England writer, Jack Pickbrook. Jack, let's come to you first. Thomas Tuchel is the new England manager. He starts work on 1st January 2025. Look, it was only a few days ago we were fantasizing that Pep Guardiola could potential be getting the England job. Are you surprised by this appointment?
- [03:47]
Jack Pickbrook
I think if you'd asked me at the start of the process, would I be surprised if Thomas Tischel is the next permanent England manager? I would not have been because I think Tuchel's always been one of the outstanding candidates. He's got a great track record. He's out of work as well at the moment, which I think helps his case. That said, it's all moved very, very quickly in the last week or so. The FA statement that just came out said that he signed his contract on the 8th of October. So that was last. Last Tuesday. And frankly, not many people at that point would have known that Tuchel was about to become the England manager. So I think it's more the speed of it that has surprised me rather than the outcome.
- [04:24]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. How much do you think Lee Carsley's performance as interim manager, I guess sped up the process if we're talking about him signing the contracts in October. Also, I'm looking at Lee Karsley and I guess some might say probably not as convincing when speaking to the press. Do you think a lot of that would have happened, had an impact on potentially moving Thomas Tuchel forward in taking this job?
- [04:47]
Jack Pickbrook
I don't think it would have had an impact on the process in the sense that Tuchel signed the contract on the 8th of October. That's two days before the disastrous home defeat to Greece last Thursday, before the Finland game. And it's before Casley had struggled with all the questions about whether or not he wanted the top job. That said, I think what we have seen from Casley in England over the last week will have probably reinforce some minds at the FA that maybe it's not quite the right time for Casli to take over the top job because the team was so poor against Greece and also because Casley did struggle a bit. I think in those press conferences he struggled to articulate whether or not he wanted the job. Now, it might well, be that he knew perhaps at this point that Tuchel was coming in and therefore maybe he thought it was slightly academic whether or not he wanted a job that was not going to be his. But I just wonder if that might have encouraged people at the fa. They were going down the right path with Tuchel.
- [05:46]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. Do you see this as a. A bold appointment from the fa? I mean, he's a very well decorated manager, a club level. How influential do you think his style of football will be for this England team? How influential do you think he, as a man will be in this position?
- [06:03]
Jack Pickbrook
Well, I think it's bold in the sense that he's a big name. You know, he's won the Champions League. I think he's one of the most impressive managers of his generation. He's worked all over Europe, usually with a lot of success. I think the jury is out on whether or not you can just take a big name club manager into international football and see them replicate their success. There's lots of examples of big name managers coming in and maybe not having the success they're expected. I'm thinking of Antonio Conte with Italy, Luis Enrique with Spain, Hansi Flick with Germany. All different cases. But it's not always a given that just because you've won the Champions League, you can come into international football and win there. You know, some of the most successful managers in international football are in fact guys who don't really have much of a club cv. You know, De la Fuente with Spain, Scaloni with Argentina, even arguably Southgate with England. So I don't think there's no guarantees that he will succeed. I do think he's a big name and I think we just have to wait and see how able he is to imprint his style of play on players, given that he's only going to be working with them for a week or two at a time.
- [07:05]
Ayo Akimwalere
Thinking about Thomas Tuchel, I think about his successes, but also think about, I guess, great fallouts with the higher echelons of clubs. Yeah. Whether it be Dortmund, whether it be Bayern Munich or even, to a certain degree, Leonardo, you know, and psg. Do we have a sense of what kind of relationship this will be with the fa? Because Thomas Tuchel is a guy that clearly has a set idea of principles of how he wants to do things.
- [07:29]
Jack Pickbrook
Yeah. I wonder if he might find this a bit easier than some of the club situations he's been in the past, just because, you know, the FA is not a football club and there's fewer people in the building. Getting in his ears. And there's no recruitment either. So there's no arguments about should we sign him or should we sign him or should we sign him? And clearly, when he was particularly at PSG and at Bayern, there's a lot of politics going on at those clubs. And as you say, Tuchel is somebody with very, very clear ideas about how he wants to do things. So I don't think that's going to be an issue in the same way. Obviously, in the past, he's also rubbed some players up the wrong way. I don't know whether that will be quite so much of an issue with England, simply because he's not working with the players. 24 7. You know, again, international football is different from club football, so it might be that that aspect of it isn't so much of an issue. So it might well be that he really enjoys the kind of extra sort of freedom and autonomy that you get working as a national manager rather than with a club.
- [08:27]
Ayo Akimwalere
Jack's just been talking about, you know, how he feels Tuchel could settle into this England setup and also his relationship with the fa. David, do you see this appointment as a bold appointment from the fa?
- [08:41]
Acast
Bold in some ways. He's German. He has had relatively short stints at the big clubs that he's worked for. Borussia Dortmund, psg, Chelsea, Bayern Munich. There has also been controversy at some of those clubs in terms of some acrimonious exits. And so it doesn't come without its risks. I'm not sure anybody comes without their risks. And not everybody. Very few have such squeaky clean CVs as Gareth Southgate. But on the footballing side, there aren't many bigger, better, you could say, names within football management. And we can see that Thomas Tuchel is one of the elite coaches, managers in the game. He ticks a lot of the criteria that the FA had set out in terms of Premier League experience, in terms of winning trophies, in terms of developing young players, in particular English players, which he did at Chelsea, likes of Reece, James Mason. Mount. Mason, Mount. This could be a good thing for. And so, of course, it's bold because they're backing Thomas Tuchel to take England to World cup glory. And it's a job that he has wanted for a long time. It's been well documented. Myself and others have reported it. He'll have total faith in himself to conquer that task and to achieve what nobody has in what will be 60 years, I think, since England won the World Cup. This is an enormous moment for. For English football They've tried big foreign names before, but I'm not sure any of those, in terms of Capello and Svenjer and Eriksen were kind of at their sort of peak within club football at that moment in time, that they had done well in the past. But Tuchel is seen as the sort of manager who's in the frame for Manchester United. Reportedly, if Eric Ten Hag was to have left now, we know he was in the summer because he was interviewed when there was a decision to make on Erik Ten Hag. So this is the Football association setting their sights high. It's almost like a club football appointment. This is somebody that will go to the World cup in 2026 in the United States, Canada and Mexico, provided England qualify and have more certainly club football titles to his name than anybody else there. He's a bigger name than pretty much any other manager that will be there. I don't think England could have done much better. And I think given what's happened of late with Lee Carsley and the uncertainty and England fans baying for somebody that can take them that 1% further that Gareth Southgate didn't manage to do and go on to be the actual winner. Looking at Tuchel's record in semi finals with Chelsea, I think he's unbeaten with all but one of those matches being a win. And that was a draw. He went on to a final every time. He's won three Major league titles, he's won the Champions League. Looking at what they had at their disposal to try and lift that tournament, they probably couldn't have done much better than Thomas Tuchel.
- [12:00]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you know, Manchester United were interested in the summer. We know that for sure. Do you think that was a bit of a consideration for the FA to get this job done, to get it over the line just in case something else does come along down the line? Because, you know, he's an elite manager.
- [12:14]
Acast
Well, Thomas Tuchel has wanted to resume management in England. That's been crystal clear. So whether it had been with England previously, with Tottenham Hotspur, with Manchester United, there was no disguising his desire. So for somebody that does want to employ him, there is this sense of, you better move fast because you don't know where he might end up, because coaches of that ilk don't stay on the market for too long. Generally, it may have been a consideration for the fa, but I've got to say I'm not aware of Manchester United moving for him. There were reports, and I respect all of those reports, that if Eric Ten Haag had gone, he would have been high in their consideration. I've said in other broadcast appearances and pods that I'm not sure that Manchester United would have gone back there. I think there were some reservations after what happened in the summer, exactly how it played out, we might not ever know. But there was certainly some interest from Thomas Tuchel's side that married with some interest from Manchester United side. They came together, they had some conversations, whether offers or numbers were thrown around, who knows? But Thomas Tuchel then decided to back off because he wanted longer away. And depending on how far Manchester United had gone down the road with him, was it once bitten, twice shy. And if the vacancy had arisen or does arise, maybe they would be looking elsewhere. But I'm not sure the FA would have known all of that. And so there was a lot of noise around Thomas Tuchel and now we hear about the dates they're claiming that he signed. It does draw parallels. Manchester United were holding their exco meeting, no doubt discussing Erik Ten Hag's future that day off the back of the Aston Villa draw. And. And the FA seemed to have acted with stealth, under the radar, and got their man. I think less dramatic and more probable is that they needed to make an appointment. Mark Bullingham, the chief executive, to my understanding, wanted a big name. Tuchel's conversations would have taken place for quite some time. His desire has been made clear, and so they wanted to get it wrapped up. And it may explain now some of Lee Kazley's comments and uncertainty in the days that followed.
- [14:36]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, Jack, you know, David just spoke about Mark Bullingham, and Mark Bullingham also, in an FA statement, says, you know, appointing Tuchel is about giving us the best possible chance to win the World cup in 2026. Something David also spoke about was time and patience. Is that enough time with this squad? And do England fans have enough patience if they don't see someone get into this job and see quick results and quick, beautiful play, to say the least.
- [15:07]
Jack Pickbrook
It's not a lot of time at all. You know, his first England camp will be in late March next year, and then he'll only have, what, just over a year with the players, really, before they. That is, assuming they qualify before they all fly off to the US in June 2026. So it's a very, very tight turnaround. And I guess this is kind of the issue with the appointment is that if you appoint somebody who is kind of explicitly there to win the World cup, then you are setting the bar so high that it's going to be very difficult for this appointment to be viewed as a success unless they are lifting the World cup trophy in July 2026. And I guess this is kind of the problem, isn't it, when you appoint somebody so that they can win you a trophy, you do make life very difficult for yourself. You know, it's impossible for me not to think about the example of Tottenham Hotspur, who sacked Mauricio Pochettino in 2019, replacing with Jose Mourinho because he was a proven winner, thinking that all the winning that he'd done could kind of rub off on the club. And of course it didn't happen that way and it didn't happen with Antonio Conte either. And now Tottenham have had to go back to thinking, what sort of a club do we want to be? How are we going to try and build from scratch? Now, of course, international and club football are different, but I think the logic of the proven winner appointment, I think is never. I don't really think it often works out quite how people expect it will in terms of the patience from the fans. Well, this is an obvious thing to say, but of course it will all boil down to how they do in the us, you know, that the fans won't care too much. I don't think if performances are not great between now and then, but if they, if they slip up in the US and I think people will turn pretty quickly.
- [16:46]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, look, there's plenty of talent in this squad, especially very, very young talent. But, you know, and I guess this will be something that will be brought up, I'm sure, as Thomas Tuchel stays in the job, is that, you know, what does hiring a German manager say about English coaching talent, Jack?
- [17:03]
Jack Pickbrook
Not a lot, really. I mean, I think that my own view on this is that certainly the top level international teams should be managed by people from that country. I think that given all the money in the English game, there ought to be coach education and coaching pathways sufficient to produce an English manager for the English national team. I think it's pretty depressing if the FA don't think that there is a sufficiently good English candidate for the role. A lot of the successes of Gareth Southgate over the last eight years were down to him working very hard to try to build a kind of authentic English identity around the England team. Realising that the England team is not just the 21st Premier League club. It's actually a kind of, you know, it's a kind of culture in itself and you need the players to buy into that. You need the Public to buy into that. So I think that England have really gone down the route of, you know, swallowing the logic of club football, of Premier League football, by getting a famous manager. And I've got no doubt that Tuchel is a brilliant manager. But I think it is a bit. Personally, I think it's a bit dispiriting what it says to us about both English coaching pathways and also the priorities of the fa.
- [18:14]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, you're talking to a Nigerian. So I'm used to foreign coaches taking over my national team to a certain degree. So I'm kind of sort of in the middle on that one, really, in terms of someone from the country taking that national team position. But, David, you know, in that vein as well, you know, did England approach Pep Guardiola? Do we know was. Would he have been first choice, for instance?
- [18:35]
Acast
The FA has run a confidential process, so very little official is going to come out from their end, so you have to rely on your sourcing and information. And I have spoken to multiple people who say there was an approach over the summer. Certainly I was getting indications around mid to late August time into September, that Pep Guardiola was the top choice. I believe that to be the case, and understandably so. I mean, he'd probably be the top choice for any club or international team in world football, and especially for England, with his experience here and his success and everything that they're looking for, his work with English players, there is nobody who ticks more boxes than him. And so, yeah, it seems some informal contact took place. They sort of sounded him out. Those reports emerged earlier this week. And the thing with Pep Guardiola is he tends to change his mind from one day to the next. Leaves his decisions relatively late. So when he signed his last contract at Manchester City, remember breaking the story when we were out at the World Cup? So that would have been mid to late November, early December, approaching the final six months of his terms. And it looks like it's going to be the same again this time around. And so the fa, I think they got some sort of positive indications, like there was an openness to have a further conversation. But how far can you wait in their position with everything at stake and the importance of this appointment and the time to go until the World Cup? And they could have waited all of that time and Pep Guardiola could have extended his contract at Manchester City, and then the FA would have been left in a very tricky position. In recent days, when the Pep Guardiola story started to emerge, I was led to believe that it was more likely he would do another year at City than take the England job right now. So the FA would have been cognizant of their chances, and that's clearly why they've shifted to Thomas Tuchel. I don't think that's a slight on Tuchel. And the FA's admiration for Guardiola is ongoing, understandably so. And therefore you never know what the future might hold. Could they go for him post Tuchel? May he go and do something else? Let's see. It's interesting on Guardiola that as this drew closer, I started to get the sense that it would be more plausible than many thought, because a lot of people were saying the finances just wouldn't work. But Guardiola is not stupid. If he wanted this job, he would adapt his salary expectations accordingly, I'm sure. And also, the FA would have had means to have taken the package higher. So, yeah, it seems that Thomas Tuchel has fitted in pretty much to what they wanted. There's a bonus in his contract for winning the World cup, as you would expect. And it is more cost effective than hiring Pep Guardiola, no doubt. But in Pep Guardiola's personal and commercial endorsement deals, the idea that he would manage one of the premier international teams in England and at a World cup in North America, United States, Canada, Mexico would have seen a massive uplift there, which I'm sure would have gone some way to plugging the shortfall between the FA salary offer and what he gets paid at Manchester City. So that was a real situation IO and has materialized. Maybe it will in the future, maybe not. Again, all things considered, yep, Pep Guardiola would have been a dream, but Tom Stucco is not a bad alternative.
- [22:03]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, for sure. All right, gents, I'll let you go. I know you've got lots happening today. Thanks for joining us, Jack and David as well.
- [22:12]
Acast
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamwalere.
- [22:19]
Salesperson
As a salesperson, the search for the right buyer or buying groups can feel like you're endlessly sifting through leads and hoping they're ready to buy. Thankfully, LinkedIn Sales Navigator is more than just a tool. It's your strategic sales partner. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is a sales intelligence platform that helps professionals effectively prospect, engage high value customers, drive higher revenue and increase sales performance. Sales Navigator helps you target the right buyers, surface key signals such as job changes or which accounts you should prioritize, and shows you hidden allies that you can find those buyers that are most likely to convert Whether you're looking for new clients or strengthening relationships of current accounts, LinkedIn Sales Navigator has new AI features designed to help sellers find the right people and get right to the right conversations. All at scale. Fueled by LinkedIn's 1 billion-member platform, Sales Navigator gives you the most up to date first party data, enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Ready to get right to the right conversations? Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a 60 day free trial at LinkedIn.com NBashow23 that's LinkedIn.com NBashow23 for a 60 day free trial. Terms and conditions apply.
- [23:40]
1-800-Flowers Ad
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest. All because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the dark web, blocks data brokers from selling your information. Includes a VPN for private browsing and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's aura.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [24:39]
Ayo Akimwalere
Time to dig a little deeper on what England fans can expect from Thomas Tuchel. Before we get into Tuchel's time in England at Chelsea, the Athletics German football correspondent Sepp Saflor is on hand to tell us how he fared in his most recent job at Bayern Munich.
- [24:56]
Podcast Host
I think if Tickle was to reflect now, he would say that it might have been a mistake to take that job. Mid season Julian Nagelsmann was sacked in March 2023, which of course creates an unexpected opportunity and probably a chance he felt might not come again and that he was unable to turn down. But he still inherited a really flawed squad. Robert Lewandowski was gone. Bayern were midway through their sadio mane experiment which didn't really work. Defense was a bit of a mess, midfield was imbalanced. Tuchel inherited all of these things and not during a pre season when he had a chance to remedy some of them or during a transfer window. And over time his angst over those deficiencies grew and that became the kind of the feature of his time at Alain's arena. I think the decisive moment is really in the summer of 2023 when he clearly had an idea of exactly what he wanted, which positions needed strengthening. And throughout that summer a lot of Bayern's organisational energy was consumed by their pursuit of Harry Kane to the point where they left a lot of things undone. And over time, Tuchel became less and less shy of expressing his disappointment at some of these recruiting failures or what he perceived to be recruitment failures. He would also talk publicly about what he perceives players weaknesses to be and it created a lot of friction, not just within the dressing room where a lot of players felt unwanted by him and they felt that some of his man management style contrasted unfavorably with Julian Osman also caused problems higher up. It was very draining. It's very unsatisfying time because I don't think anybody at Bayern would question Thomas Tuchel's abilities as a head coach. World class tactician, CV proves that. But yet it also showed again that, you know, part of being a Bayern Munich head coach is timing and personality and being able to deal with the environment and it just never quite worked.
- [27:00]
Ayo Akimwalere
That was Seb Stafford Bleu on Thomas Tuchel's time at Bayern Munich. Right. Joining me now to talk more Tuchel, especially his time at Chelsea, is Liam Toomey, who covers the blues for the Athletic. First, let's talk about his career at Chelsea. Liam, you know what were the good bits? Obviously winning the Champions League is a massive high, but what were the lows as well?
- [27:20]
Liam Toomey
I think the arc is pretty pronounced in terms of the highs and the lows. And you look at his Chelsea tenure, he only had one full season, it's basically 18 months, 19 months, and it felt like five years worth of events were packed into that time. Let's talk initially about his immediate impact because Chelsea was the first time that he'd taken a job mid season and it took him as long as the flight from Paris to London to come up with the system that ultimately won Chelsea the Champions League. It's easy to forget Chelsea were a team that were drifting on the pitch, that didn't really have a coherent identity with all the spending that they'd done in the summer of 2020. And Tuchel changed all of that virtually overnight. He transformed Chelsea into a defensive behemoth. They went 14 games unbeaten from the start of his tenure and only conceded two goals. It was their defence and their smothering pressing that got them past Atletico Madrid, then Real Madrid and ultimately beat Manchester City three times in the Space of two months culminating in that incredible Champions League final in Porto. There was an FA cup final defeat against Leicester in all of that as well. But those first three, four months were pretty much as impressive as it gets, I think, for examples of a high end coach come in and making just an incredible immediate impact and getting the most spectacular reward for it. So he immediately earned the undying goodwill of the Chelsea fan base and he went into that 20, 21, 22 season with real momentum. Abramovich had given him a new contract. He'd also given him a new striker in Romelu, Lukaku. And that's when things started to go wrong for Tuchel. I mean, they began that season pretty strongly, but by the turn of the year it was already pretty clear that their defensive standards had slipped a little bit from the Champions League winning peak and their attack had not improved even with the addition of Lukaku to make up for that defensive slippage. And then you have Lukaku giving that interview to Sky Italia, which torched his relationship with Chelsea as well as with Tuchel. And Tuchel, I think still emerged with a lot of credit for winning the club World cup and also getting Chelsea to two more cup finals that season. He got Chelsea to the final of every cup competition he competed in. It's an incredible record and one that I think England might have looked at quite closely because you are appointing a Cup manager. Ultimately. He also provided, I think, some important leadership for the club when the UK government sanctioned Abramovich and everything that went along with that and what an unprecedented, stressful situation it was. I think he was a good front facing leader at a time when there weren't many of those at Chelsea. But there were already signs behind the scenes that he was perceived very differently by his players. And Lukaku was not the only one who was disillusioned with his management style as well as his style of play. A lot of the attackers felt alienated by the way he used, but also spoke to them and about them in games and in training. He's very demonstrative with his frustration when chances were missed, we were told at the time, even more brutal with his feedback in training. And players also felt that as his reign went on and performances and results started to dip, the culture of open communication that he'd established on his arrival really fell by the wayside and players were suddenly being blanked and it wasn't explained to them what they had to do to get back into the team. And it meant that when the change of ownership actually happened Todd Boehly and Clearlake Capital inherited a club with a lot of problems, but one of those problems was that quite a lot of players wanted to leave for several reasons, but one of them being to get away from their head coach. And that was a difficult situation to try and manage. And the power vacuum at the top of the club plunged Tuchel into more of an active role in recruitment in that summer than he would have liked. He was not diplomatic in hiding his frustration with Boehli and Bedad Egbali as they got up to speed with the football business. Bohli obviously functioning as interim sporting director. And those key relationships broke down very, very quickly, in marked contrast to the relationships he'd had with Marina Granovskaya and Petr Cech, which were always very good and very close. So, remarkably, it wasn't a huge surprise when his 100th match as Chelsea coach against Dinamo Zagreb in Zagreb proved to be his last. Maybe Chelsea were slightly more brutal than we were expecting, but there were signs that it was heading in that direction because he'd lost the trust of the boardroom and he'd also lost the trust of a lot of the dressing room.
- [32:39]
Ayo Akimwalere
I wonder what England fans would be thinking. You know, this is clearly a coach with a sense of what he wants to do at a club, but also a real sense of self as well, it seems. I wonder from your perspective, having seen him at Chelsea, if you, one, think international football suit him and the way he operates, and two, I guess, what kind of football should England fans expect?
- [33:02]
Liam Toomey
I think when you look at the things that worked at Chelsea early on, there's a lot to be optimistic about from an England point of view. He imposed a level of tactical detail and rigor in very little amount of training time. It did not take much time for him to get his message across and to ensure that his team was really joined up. And within a matter of weeks, Chelsea were playing at the level that subsequently led them to win the Champions League. So if you're looking from an international point of view where you don't get much time to work with players, when you've maybe got two, three weeks in a category camp before you go off to a tournament, I think he's capable of doing that. And everyone, even people who don't like Tuchel personally or have questions about him professionally, they all say he's a world class tactical mind. This guy is an incredible boots on the ground coach in terms of the way that he sets up teams. And there are very few people in World football. I think that would be backed to come up with the right game plan for a big one off game, which is ultimately how international tournaments are won and lost and where England have fallen short, I think, throughout the Southgate era. So I can certainly see the logic from that perspective in the FA turning to Tuchel, where the questions are his ability to manage people both up and down. Can he be a company man in the way that Southgate was? I think a lot of the people that have experienced Tuchel in his career would be very skeptical of that. With all of the media scrutiny that comes with being England manager, it's unlike anything else in this country, a different level even from Chelsea. And can he navigate dressing room dynamics for a long period of time without alienating players that he actually needs to be successful? He did that really well for a few months at Chelsea and then it disintegrated quite quickly. And there have been been reports of that happening at his other previous club. So I think there are serious questions and serious risks to this, but I can absolutely see why the FA arrived at a place where they wanted to do it.
- [35:13]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, well, his assistant at England is a guy called Anthony Barry. And, you know, it's talked up a lot actually by the FA in today's statement. And what do you think of him and his time at Chelsea with Tuchel?
- [35:26]
Liam Toomey
Well, the interesting thing about Anthony Barry and something, I think that's been the theme of his career is that he impresses everyone who comes into contact with him. He came to Chelsea because he'd done his pro license at the same time as Frank Lampard and Jodi Morris. And they came away thinking, wow, this guy is so, so good. You know, there was no kind of formal ranking of students in that pro license intake, but from what I was told informally, he was regarded as the top student in the class. And that's not just as a set piece coach, which is how he's come to be known. I think he's very well respected for being a football mind generally. But the interesting thing about him in his Chelsea time is that when Lampard left and most of his backroom staff left with him, Barry was technically a club hire, even though Lampard had certainly pushed for him to come in. And he was in two minds when Tuchel was appointed about whether he could stay because he's always had offers to go and be a head coach in lower tiers in England and abroad, I think. So he had a decision to make. And from what we were told, Tuchel came in and immediately formed such a positive impression of him and his level of knowledge that he was like, I can't lose this guy. He has to be a key part of my backroom team going forward. And so he stayed. He convinced Barry to stay. And you would often see him. It was clear what the division of responsibilities was. Every time there was a corner or a free kick, Tuchel would be down. Barry would be up in the technical area issuing instructions. That's clearly his specialism, but I don't think it's all that he does. And the impression that I've had of him since then, even though I've not been quite as connected to it since he's left Chelsea, is that he continues to be someone that is regarded almost universally with respect for how competent he is. And he's been with Belgium, working with Roberto Martinez, who seems to be a big fan of him as well. And he's still really young, so it looks like he's got a lot of potential for future growth in his career as well.
- [37:40]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah, really nice to hear that, Liam. And thanks for that really comprehensive, in depth look at Thomas Tuchel's time at Chelsea. And of course, Thomas Tuchel, now England manager. Appreciate your time, brother.
- [37:50]
Liam Toomey
Always a pleasure.
- [38:02]
1-800-Flowers Ad
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest, all because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers, and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the dark web, blocks data brokers from selling your information. Includes a VPN for private browsing and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked, all for free@aura.com safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [38:58]
Acast
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. acamolera.
- [39:05]
David Ornstein
Obviously very excited and honored to be here today as a new head coach of England. I just had the chance to read a quote from Pele in the building in Wembley who said that Wembley is the heart, the capital and the cathedral of football. And I think he was absolutely right.
- [39:28]
Ayo Akimwalere
That was the voice of New England manager Thomas Tuchel at his unveiling at Wembley earlier today. Right. To pick the bones out of that and also to reflect on what has been quite a crazy 24 hours in the world of football. I'm joined by the Athletics Phil Hay. Phil, I was listening to that press conference and I, I thought, you know what? Tuchel came across assured and felt like he sort of felt comfortable in that situation, maybe because he'd probably seen many of those journalists before. What did you make of his first press conference?
- [39:57]
Phil Hay
Familiar faces in the room. You made this point just before we came on air and I hadn't really thought of it, but I think it's right on the money that he'll be walking in there and seeing people who he recognizes from his time at Chelsea. You've got all the top tier of your, of your English football writers in the room, as they would be at most Chelsea games as well. His English is rock solid for a start, which definitely helps. So no issues with communication. And he did look really relaxed. I thought his personality came across really well, actually. He was good humored. I think he will have been well aware of what was coming, even without the briefing that he'll inevitably have had from the FA's communications department. He'll have followed what's been said over the last 24 hours. He'll have seen the positive aspects of the coverage, he'll have seen the, the negative, critical aspects of either him as a coach or him as a foreigner or a German, whatever it is that people are digging him out for. And he seemed ready for it all. I thought. I'm always wary, really with these, because I've seen a lot of new manager press conferences in my career, but I'm always wary of saying that anybody spoke well because people tend to speak well. It's more newsworthy if they come in for the press conference, the first press conference, and give a bad impression. But I don't think anybody will go away from that thinking that he, he isn't ultra keen for the job. And I think in the, in the cold like today as well. When you think about Tuchel, he has got an elite track record when it comes to the clubs that he's, he's managed and he is a coach who's been pulled from, you know, from the.
- [41:19]
Ayo Akimwalere
Top shelf, really something you mentioned there about his nationality and that will always seem to be a factor, especially with the press in the UK and England.
- [41:28]
David Ornstein
I can just tell them, and I, maybe everyone, all of these supporters also felt my passion for, for the English Premier League, my passion for the country, how I love to live here and how I love to work here. So my Memories are on the highest level of that played a huge role, and hopefully I can convince them and show them and prove them that I'm proud to be the English manager. I will do everything to show respect to this role and to this country. And the target for the next 18 months is nothing else and the biggest one in world football and everyone can be assured of, no matter what nationality my passport says.
- [42:11]
Ayo Akimwalere
I don't know. I think he handed it really, really well. Almost as if he was prepared for that, being a German leading an England team.
- [42:18]
Phil Hay
Yeah, there was a really good piece Jack Pitt Brook wrote yesterday was on the Athletic, and it was his view on why the England coach should be English. For what it's worth, I disagree. I see this from a different point of view, but it was a really eloquent article and when you read it, you really got Jack's point of view. Parts of the other coverage I've seen just seem to be totally deranged. You know, I was reading a piece yesterday that was referencing Henry V, and I get that Agincourt was a kind of memorable away day, but it, you know, it's similar to me using the Battle of Bannock Gun to debate the appointment of a coach for Scotland. And it's, you know, from my point of view, football's really cosmopolitan. Never been more so these days. And I think the lines between nationality and tradition have blurred more and more over the years. And in the end, everybody says they want England to win, and I think with Tuchel, they've got as good a chance as they ever had with Southgate, regardless of how far Southgate got with this squad. But again, you're right, he was prepared for those questions. And I think he probably struck the balance pretty well between being slightly apologetic, where he said, look, I'm sorry, I've got a German passport. There's not a lot I can do about that. But not being so apologetic to the point where he was saying, yeah, do you know what? You're all right. They should have an English coach here, but they don't have anybody who's up to it, or there's nobody that the FA trusts, so it's had to be me. He did say at one point, again, people who take that point of view, I accept that, entitled to that opinion, but here I am. It was notable, I thought, that the FA's chief executive, Mark Billingham, swerved that question completely when it came, you know, the question of, what does it say about you that you. You can't have an English coach in this job. He didn't address that at all. And to a degree I can understand why, because again, the last thing he wants to do is say we really rate Thomas, we think he can win us the World cup, we think he's the right man for the job. But actually if there had been somebody who was tailor made in English would have gone for them instead.
- [44:06]
Ayo Akimwalere
Something that also came up for me was people were pointing out that he's only got an 18 month contract. And I loved his answer. He's like, I'd have to work on my lung game. That's what I'm working on, something along those line. And I wonder whether or not he's thinking about his time moving forward at England or whether it's a job at hand and whether or not he can actually convert his club success into national team success.
- [44:32]
Phil Hay
I just think it's sensible. I mean, it's not so different with Mauricio Pochettino over at the usmnt. It's the same thing. They're both very high profile, but they're both moving into international management for the first time. And it is a different code of coaching. It isn't the same. I was writing about Bielsa at Uruguay earlier this week. You know, people who know him say that to a degree he does miss. He's not happy with that job, he was pleased to take it on, but he does miss day to day chaos of, you know, managing a club. So it is different for them. Add to that the fact that both of them are expensive and also, you know, the reality that both of them have to deliver a good performance at the World Cup. Quite what Pochettino's target with the USMNT is difficult to say. I don't know what would pass as clear in the bar for him, but for Tuchel in England, especially after the last euros and a couple of tournaments before that as well, they have to go very close to winning in 2026. They have to be right there and it has to look like it's working and it's a good fit. And it just seems to me to be a fairly sensible point post World cup to review everything. And I don't doubt that if it's going well and Tuchel's comfortably in the job that you'll see a contract extension at that point. I think in a lot of ways a really long contract which seems to give somebody, you know, almost undue security, given that they're coming into this fairly raw in international terms, is as much of a risk as a short term deal.
- [45:55]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. I'm sure many England fans also would like the fact that he's worked with Harry Kane before and this is a reunification of that relationship. But also I guess he has got the template that someone like Gareth Southgate built young dynamic players who are hungry for success.
- [46:12]
David Ornstein
Gareth and DFA did a fantastic job in terms of stability and consistency. Look at the last results in the tournament. It's a quarter final semifinal and two finals in the last four tournaments. It's outstanding. The under 21s win titles. The younger teams are in the competition to win titles. The women team wins titles. So we are there. I think the federation is there and it was a big part of taking that job. I am curious, I want to learn I will have a different schedule than a club football football. But I, it was a big part that, that the. The knowledge and the quality of, of the federation to, to have that in at my side.
- [46:54]
Phil Hay
I do think the squad that's been left behind is in very, very good nick for him. Not, not perfect. And I think you know, without, without eulogizing about, about Southgate because I think there were issues with him and I think particularly the, it was the in game coaching finesse needed to tweak matches and, and turn them when they weren't going well, which, which seemed to count against him, him more than anything. But there are a lot of players who are well established. There are a lot of top draw players and I mean the credit for that to a large extent has to go to the clubs that they're coming from because that's where they're coached and trained every day. But he is inheriting a really, really strong group and again, just to compare him quickly with Pochettino, I think whereas the USMNT squad needs a little bit of a magic wand waved over it, I think what the England squad needs is just somebody who can work out where the players fit best in order to make them the best team that they can be. And I reckon that it was probably quite helpful Lee Karsley proving last week, you know, this caretaker game against Greece that just trying to shoehorn every quality attacking player into the team is not going to work and is not a good strategy. You need to be more strategic than that and Tuchel definitely will be. So yeah, in terms of Harry Kane fascinates me really because he and Kane obviously have a prior history Bayern Munich. But there does seem to be a prevailing view that Kane's presence in the team as much as he scores goals has been. Been a hindrance more than a help. Recently if that isn't going, going too far. There's no doubt at all that Kane is into the latter years of his career as well. And there is going to come a day, you know, a little bit like David Beckham, where England will have to, to move on from him. And you wonder whether that might fall in the Tushelita. Possibly not because I think Kane's still got some, some lead in his pencil. But, you know, beyond 2026, it's hard to see where Kane would fit.
- [48:33]
Ayo Akimwalere
Yeah. And finally we were talking about how his personality might sit in this England squad and within the fa, you know, blanket in general. You know, he spoke about being an emotional guy, which I thought was really interesting. He's not a company man, I guess in, in the same way someone like Gareth Southgate is. How do you think those personalities will work together?
- [48:54]
Phil Hay
It's funny, I always think company man as a description of Southgate, which is pretty unfair. I think maybe Federation coach is a better way of putting it. That's become like the sort of fashionable, fashionable phrase. But I think Tuchel will be more demanding of the fa. I think he will be not difficult, but I think he'll be. It'd be tougher to, to control than Southgate was. I don't think that's a bad thing and I can genuinely see this being a pretty good fit. I think there's no doubt, you know, even though Tuchel didn't Really, he wasn't 100% fulfilled any of the clubs he was at, but he has got a very strong record and he's got a good resume when it comes to the clubs that he's managed. And I do feel like this could be a really good it.
- [49:32]
Ayo Akimwalere
Okay, fantastic. Phil, thank you so much for your contribution and also thank you to everyone for their contribution on today's pod. Jack, David, Liam, Seb as well. We'll be back tomorrow for some more from the world of football.
- [49:46]
Salesperson
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [49:54]
1-800-Flowers Ad
This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [50:49]
Podcast Host
ACAST Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.
- [50:56]
Phil Hay
Hey guys.
- [50:57]
Acast
We have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [51:00]
David Ornstein
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [51:04]
Acast
We love getting to talk to experts. We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you. But the thing we love most is.
- [51:12]
David Ornstein
Being a place where you can laugh.
- [51:14]
Acast
A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with so in the spirit of that, we.
- [51:21]
David Ornstein
Are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines.
- [51:25]
Liam Toomey
With Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [51:27]
Acast
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [51:34]
David Ornstein
We hope you'll join us.
- [51:35]
Acast
Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen.
- [51:37]
David Ornstein
Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [51:41]
Podcast Host
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.