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- [00:01]
Adrian
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Ayo Akimolere
Today.
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Adrian
At T Mobile, I'm joined by a special co anchor.
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Adrian
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Snoop Dogg
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Adrian
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Adrian
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- [01:07]
Ayo Akimolere
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- [01:10]
Adrian
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Ayo Akimolere
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Adrian
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- [01:34]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Not for the first time, Manchester United have proven they still have a glimpse of class in the team, as shown by Bruno Fernandes.
- [01:44]
Adrian
Bruno Fernandes.
- [01:45]
Phil Hay
Beautiful.
- [01:47]
Adrian
Now that is a pick me up.
- [01:50]
Ayo Akimolere
But despite sitting 14th in the Premier League, the Europa League still offers a back door into next season's Champions League. So how crucial is European qualification for Ruben Amarim's plans for an Old Trafford overhaul? Here with us today we have our Manchester United writer, Laurie Whitwell, but we've got Phil Hay as well. Laurie Ruben Amarin was quite apologetic after the match about his side's approach, but given that they actually avoided defeat against Arsenal as they have against, let's not forget City, Liverpool under him. I mean, I felt even as an Arsenal fan, there's some positives to take from that Manchester United match.
- [02:27]
Adrian
Yeah, I think certainly it was better than people expected. And even at the end, I mean, I thought they'd won the game where Bruno's arriving onto Masraoui's cross and he's the perfect person for that chance. And Raya pulls off a really good save and then the second save is absolutely incredible to kind of claw it back when it's spinning towards the line. So they also had other chances. You know, Rasmus Hojlund had a couple. So I think they actually, you know, did pretty well. Certainly second half they sort of turned up a little bit, were able to get a bit more aggressive in the press because the first half was very much a case of consolidation. Sit back, soak up the pressure. And I think that's why they've been able to have sort of results against Manchester City away and Liverpool away. Liverpool was a bit more on the front foot, but the game plan is, you know, stay tight, stay compact and then and try and hit on the counter and you know, if you can, you know, maybe win the ball a bit higher up then fantastic. But I thought there was a lot of good individual displays within that team performance and just give them a little bit of encouragement. Ahead of the Europa League game against Real Sociedad. I thought they were pretty good away actually in Spain as well. But I think since Ahmad's been injured, there's been a big question mark about have heated actually actually got enough, you know, certainly an attacking sense to go and win this competition in the Europa League, which is their key to Champions League and you know, big money for some of the transfer overhaul. So yeah, I thought it was a kind of encouraging display to that end at least anyway. Yeah.
- [03:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Phil, does Amram have a point though? You know, Laura talks about wanting to move away from this sort of counter attacking style and there's a. There's a bit of write up actually post match from Conor O'Neill. One of our writers basically says, you know, Amarim system demands dynamic midfielders who can provide passing options despite being outnumbered. A profile United simply don't have until. Until that changes, counterattacks will remain United's most reliable route to goal. Is it down to personnel? He wants to do something but just literally can't right now.
- [04:09]
Phil Hay
I think that's the key point and yet it seems to me that it predominantly is down to personnel, but the penny must be dropping with Ameron to some extent that somewhere in the process of this team evolving, however much time he gets to do that, and he keeps talking about not necessarily having a huge amount, but I think he will certainly get more than he's had and I think he'll get a Decent stretch to make a difference somewhere in that he's got to start posting more consistent results. I mean, anybody with eyes can see that he doesn't have properly competitive resources at the moment, but that doesn't really excuse a record of. I think it is 10 wins from 26 games now. It's pretty close to one in three. It's poor, poor numbers. And his job fundamentally is to improve the team and I guess some incremental improvement should be possible through raw coaching and internal effort. It doesn't mean that United transform into top four team purely on the basis of Room's input. There's so much more to that, but it doesn't say a great deal about him as a tactician to this point that he can't flow the stem of mixed results to a certain degree. And for what it's worth, I think he is a better tactician than he's been made to look in this job so far. And I think particularly with the wing backs. Laurie, I think, wrote about this after the first leg of the Sociedad game. You can see what he is trying to do, but you can also see to a point why it hasn't been successful so far, why it isn't quite working and why better players or different players might help him in that regard. Oddly, and Laurie touched on this, some of his better results, better performances have been in the more difficult games, you know, which is a bit counterintuitive. But I do think that away at City and Liverpool, and you can almost say this about Arsenal yesterday as well, he has come up with plans, tactical strategies which have kind of suited the fixtures and worked better for him. So to his comments, yes, I think they do have to be more adventurous than they were against Arsenal over time. But there's a difference of 21 points between these clubs and it's only at 21 points because injuries have done Arsenal in pretty heavily over the past month or so. And I do think pragmatism can be a virtue when you you're under the Kosh. So for the rest of the season, however United play, I think it'll do Amarim a big favor if he can just get some results ticking over quite steadily.
- [06:22]
Ayo Akimolere
How do you think they're adapting to the system, Laurie, from your perspective? You watch Manchester United all season. I mean, he did come in at a point where, you know, he probably didn't have time to implement much, but how do you think this team is trying to adapt to it?
- [06:34]
Adrian
Yeah, certainly there's, I suppose, little moments in games where you Think, okay, that is what he's after, you know, so I think yesterday we had a situation of Diogo Dala, who I was critical of in the game over in Spain for not, you know, passing to Rasmus Hojlund when he had the chance. He picked out a really nice cross for Masraoui, who was arriving from the other, other flank. So wing back to wing back and fantastic volley, great save by David Rayer to, you know, keep it a 1 nil at that point. So that, that could have been. That could have made it a different outcome as well, ultimately. And even in the first half, I remember Matthijs Delict Adv. He's actually picked out Dele with a couple of lovely crossfield passes in recent games. I think that's something clearly they've decided, right, if we can get a quick switch on over to the left from. From Delict, then that's something we should try. But he was advancing and actually put a cross into the box himself and usually he'd want him on the end of things, perhaps, and he did get ahead of the second half. But I think that's again, something else that Amarin would ultimately want from this system, this formation, in that you've got those auxiliary centre backs either side of the primary one in the middle getting forward and trying to make something happen. Lisandro Martinez, before he got injured, was actually provide. Providing quite a pivotal, you know, point of attack to, you know, balls in that channel down to Hoyland. I think maybe he suffered from the fact of Martinez being out. So, yeah, there's ways in which what can look. And certainly, perhaps well, definitely played at times last yesterday as a 5, 4, 1. It can then transform into an absolute 3, you know, 3, 4, 3, whatever you want to call it. And even, perhaps even more attacking than that, where the winning backs are pretty much wingers. So that's ultimately what he wants. You know, Patrick Daugu is his only sort of real senior signing from the January transfer market. He'll. He'll come back into the team because he was suspended for the Arsenal game. I think he's shown real good sort of promise. He's only 20 as well, so you've got that. You know, the idea is that they build with the club and they can improve and they're not having to pay absolute top dollar for these guys. But, you know, ultimately that does mean that they'll be making mistakes along the way. Aidan Heaven was his other signing in January, but I was kind of a bit skeptical of that being a First team signing, really, because 18 had played like 10 minutes for Arsenal in the Carabao Cup. So I was thinking they obviously need to sort of show that this guy is ready for the first team. We haven't signed too many players. Let's put him in the top bracket as well. And actually, he's had a couple of cameos now, and he's looked really good, obviously, against his old team in Arsenal. Maybe a point to prove he was putting a couple of really nice tackles on Martinelli in to stem the tide there, and he was getting involved with the crowd sort of revving them up. And I know that can go either way. Can't see where you've got sort of players asking for more from the fans. And the fans are probably saying, well, can you give us some more to get excited about first? But I think in that situation, you've got a young player there that wanted his allegiance and had done some good work. So I think it was a very valid point in the game to kind of, you know, gee up the crowd. But I think ultimately it's going to take time, isn't it, you know, to come in with a squad that was built, you know, primarily for a back four with different managers that have come in and taken charge. Even, you know, when Erik Ten Hag was involved, I know that there's a lot of money spent. I think he would certainly argue not all of it was spent with his absolute direction, even though a lot of players clearly had an influence from him. So you've got these kind of sort of different arguments about who signed who and who really influenced matters. And so you've got to work through all that if you're going to have a total clean break with a new head coach with a totally new style. But clearly, as we saw in, you know, in Portugal with Sporting, that, you know, they can have success with this, this method. I know a lot of people have been doubting whether it can work in the Premier League, but I don't think that's the issue. I think it's more the quality of players.
- [10:01]
Ayo Akimolere
And what if that quality, Phil, are players like Bruno Fernandes? I mean, look, you talk about the amount of ground that guy covers. We did a podcast the other day about Talisman for a team. I mean, he's been exemplary, and yesterday came up clutch, as Kerry likes to say.
- [10:15]
Phil Hay
What's more, he's probably the one player they have who falls pretty close to that really, really elite category of footballer. I think if you were offering the entire squad up for sale, There aren't too many that your best clubs in the world would crawl over broken glass to pay for and to pay big money as well. But Fernandez keeps doing it time and time again. But I think Laurie is right, really, when it comes to the system. I don't think you can say categorically that the system that Amarin likes to play with with wing backs can't work in the Premier League. I think over the years, you've seen managers take different approaches that have been effective and more and more. Even though the Guardiola model was in vogue for such a long time, that's almost kind of out of fashion at the moment. And managers looking at different ways to play, coaches thinking of. Of different strategies that can work for them out of possession as much as anything else. Possession no longer seems to be king in the way that it once was. But. But when I watch United play under Amarim, this doesn't look like a crop who are really comfortable with the system. Doesn't look like a crop of players who are ever en masse are ever really going to be comfortable with the system. I think there are guys like Fernandez who would probably slot in fairly well no matter what it was that Amarim was trying to do. But there has to be a higher class of football. Football around about him, and that is only going to happen via the transfer window. But as we'll come on to, there is still the question of how quickly, given the financial position in United, can push this from a situation where they're very much mid table and deservedly mid table, to a position where they're competing so much, you know, more effectively. And you're talking about doggy there. And the fact that he would develop and could get better without, I think Laurie used the phrase without paying top dollar, is a totally valid strategy. But it's quite hard to marry that with the expectation around Old Trafford, which is that they will compete and be in the mix for trophies. Because that, again, will be a patient process if you're signing players who are falling below that absolutely elite level.
- [12:15]
Adrian
I suppose the one thing there, Phil, is that obviously they're now in sort of 14th, 15th place. They're from a very low base, right? So if they even just get to 10th, 9th, 8th next season, they might be, you know, satisfied with that. And the adjustment of perspective has happened. But I'm intrigued to see what you say about Bruno, that I don't know what you guys think, but obviously he divides opinion in the United fan base with, you know, some of the actions that he does and does he actually give the ball away too much? But I think yesterday showed the love that there is in the stands for him. You know, his goal was obviously, you know, pivotal and crucial and excellent quality, but the sort of chance for his name, he was giving it back as well. And I kind of felt maybe that's the point at which people just go, okay, this guy is obviously a very good football player that's been sort of having to make do in a team that hasn't always been equipped correctly. So, yeah, I don't know. It was interesting though, that you said, Phil, that you think he is that kind of elite level player, because finding the kind of consensus on him is difficult to get, particularly from people that don't watch United every week.
- [13:10]
Phil Hay
I think he's close. I do sort of question how many of you, best of the best clubs would go after Fernandez if he was put on the market, But I wonder, Laurie, whether he. I'm not suggesting that the Amarim should be thinking about selling him or cashing in on him, but do you think of all the players at Old Trafford at the moment, he's the route to the biggest money most easily? I mean, would he command the biggest fee of anybody there at the moment?
- [13:31]
Adrian
No question, Phil, he possibly would do, but I would doubt. I mean, he's 30 now, so, you know, whether clubs would absolutely hit the button on paying that kind of money. I think they're probably looking at, you know, Kobbie Mainoo and Alejandro Garnach as their sort of tickets to the bigger fees because obviously they're so young, 19, 20, they've got that resale value for these clubs. They've got that potential to grow and become even better than they are now. Obviously that would be a wrench for a lot of United fans, particularly Mainoo's case, who's been at the club since he was 5 or 6. So that's going to be a really interesting story in the summer, certainly who they go for, because the only other ways that they could sell Marcus Rashford, obviously Aston Villa have got a 40 million pound loan option in that deal, for example. So that's the. The. You're kind of thinking that's probably what he's going to go for if they're able to sell him, because the wages are so big that finding clubs that can pay both is going to be interesting. But yeah, I mean, Bruno, I feel like after he signed the new contract last year, it was, wasn't it, that that kind of put to bed those. Those sort of thoughts of him maybe moving on.
- [14:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Next, we'll discuss the impact not being in Europe could have for Manchester United next season.
- [14:34]
Adrian
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accamulere. I play wordle in spelling bee every single day. That's the first thing I do play.
- [14:42]
Phil Hay
Wordle While making coffee, I pour myself.
- [14:44]
Ayo Akimolere
A cup and do the crossword, which is the jewel of my morning.
- [14:47]
Adrian
What's our starting word today?
- [14:48]
Snoop Dogg
I think it should be ocean. I have seen you do spelling bee during meetings.
- [14:53]
Adrian
The New York Times crossword is a.
- [14:54]
Ayo Akimolere
Moment of Zen that cleanses my brain.
- [14:56]
Adrian
I wish the days were shorter and.
- [14:58]
Ayo Akimolere
That the wordles were longer. Join us and play all New York times games@nytimes.
- [15:04]
Adrian
Subscribe by March 16 to get a special offer.
- [15:13]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, I just want to say something really quickly before we move on. Here on the Athletic FC feed, you can check out the Underground World of Fake Football shirts. Adam Leventhal has spent nine months investigating fake shirts and uncovered some shocking details along the way. His investigation has taken him all over the world, from the USA to China. Finding out how these fake shirts can affect your health, health, your finances and their links to criminal gangs. Make sure you listen to the Underground World of Fake Football shirts right here on the Athletic FC podcast feed. Right, let's get back to talking Manchester United because Joining us now to delve into some of the detail around the need for United to qualify for European football next season, we have Mark Critchley as well with us now. Critch, you know, last week you looked at the books and wrote about the financial importance of being in Europe for Manchester United. Now, if you think about it historically, since Alex Ferguson, European football has been a staple pretty much at Man United. But I guess we can't stress the importance of qualifying for Europe, both for revenue and also commercially as well.
- [16:13]
Snoop Dogg
Yeah, look, qualifying for Europe is important for absolutely any club, right? Especially one of United's size. But I think that's particularly the case for United this season. You know, United consistently have spent like they're a Champions League club, but they don't consistently qualify for the Champions League. And that's a problem. They failed to qualify. I think it's five of the last 11 seasons since Ferguson's retirement, and if you're writing checks that your performances don't cash, if you like, and start losing money, basically. And you've seen five consecutive years of losses at Old Trafford as a result of that, going all the way back to 2019, and that's why you're seeing job cuts it's why you're seeing ticket price rises. It's why staff are only getting the soup and bread in the Carrington canteen. Now, this is all linked, right? And look, qualifying for the Champions League doesn't solve all those problems, but it certainly helps. So how much is it worth? It's not an exact science because it depends on a lot of different factors, not least how far you go in the competition anyway. And we obviously won't know that unless United qualifying until about this time next year. But if United were in the Champions League next season, I think you could expect around. It's around 40 to 50 million guaranteed. That's even if they crash completely out the group stages. It'd be more like 50 to 60 million if they put together a respectable run. And obviously, if they're going to qualify, they're going to need to win Europa League this season. So that's about another 40 million that they get from that. So you're talking about 80 million all told, if they manage to do it, which is going to help the club at a time when it's really short of cash. But, you know, if you've been paying attention to what I've been saying there as well, you'll notice that you actually earn less from winning the Europa League this season than you would from even crashing out the group stages of the Champions League next season. So it is really that. I think that just goes to show the difference of just how important it is that they qualify for the Champions League.
- [17:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Is it as bad as soup and bread? Laurie at the canteen? Be honest, mate. You know, all the cuts that deep.
- [17:56]
Adrian
It was actually. I don't know if I'm allowed to reveal this, it was actually some curry yesterday in the Old Trafford press room.
- [18:01]
Phil Hay
Scandal. Scandal.
- [18:03]
Adrian
I feel. I felt guilty.
- [18:05]
Snoop Dogg
The press conference have been slightly stale.
- [18:07]
Adrian
Yeah. And they are reducing in scale as well. Stale and scale.
- [18:10]
Ayo Akimolere
Oh, wow. Okay. I just wanted to lay outlay of the land. But real talk, though, I mean, the European football, we talk about, you know, the kind of money it can bring in commercially and also just in revenue in general. I mean, this season, where United are in the league, it's looking slim, surely.
- [18:23]
Adrian
Yeah, I mean, they just won't qualify through the league, I think. Didn't you have a start in yours? Chris Optor had said where they were going to finish.
- [18:31]
Snoop Dogg
The supercomputer says 0.0%.
- [18:34]
Adrian
So you're saying there's a chance.
- [18:35]
Phil Hay
It's never wrong either, is it?
- [18:37]
Snoop Dogg
Well, 0.0001. Totally zero. There's something there, but yeah, zero, basically.
- [18:45]
Ayo Akimolere
So it's not happening, it's not happening.
- [18:46]
Adrian
In the league, is it?
- [18:47]
Ayo Akimolere
It's Europa League, pretty much.
- [18:48]
Adrian
Europa League, right. And you know, United actually, I think are the only team in all of Europe unbeaten certainly in the top two competitions. And after a very stodgy start with three draws, you know, they obviously. And a rallying run. Yeah, okay. Not against the most elite opposition you could name, but they still had to beat them and they finished third in the end, you know, I think behind Lazio, who finished top. And so you sort of think, well, okay, on any given night they could, they could beat any of these teams, they could win the Europa League. It's absolutely a possibility. That's certainly got. I don't know what the percentage on that would be. Opt to have crunched their computers there. I'm thinking like, you know, 20%, something like that. So. But it obviously just means they have to pick their way through carefully and you know, they had a chance, I think over in San Sebastian to actually put the tie to bed there. They were one nil up and they were cutting through them quite easily, I think. And, and you know, the penalty changed the game. Var intervention and so ultimately they come away with a draw and. But you, you feel like they could still, you know, beat them at Old Trafford for sure. There wasn't a great deal coming back from Real Sociedad until they made the subs later on. Zubimendi is back for the game, we think. But I do feel like United, I think at some point, if they get through this round, I think they'll have to just prioritize this and I know they might not have loads of options to change it because of the injuries, but whatever you can do, I think they have to focus on the Europa League being the priority.
- [20:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Do you reckon they can go all the way, Phil?
- [20:10]
Phil Hay
It's a very even field, really even field and I don't think looking at it there's a nailed on winner in there at all. Lazio going well enough in CDR without being spectacular this season. I can totally see why they're fancied Roma handy on the day and an athletic club in Spain similar sort of thing ticking along in La Liga and up at the right end of it. But oddly enough, I was having a look at the, the, the odds before it came on and Tottenham are favorites with, with quite a few of the bookies, which was a real surprise to me given how flaky they've been and, and how many injuries they've had. But I think it's a reflection of the fact that the, the Premier League is a strong, strong division and even if you're quite a distance down it, you tend to have some very good clubs above you, very competent clubs. It's also true that when spurs click, and the same is true Manchester United from time to time when they click, they can turn it on and they can be a good side. So that I guess for Amadam and also for Postecoglou spurs, because it does mean that they, they have a chance. But I think United are the same as a lot of other clubs in it. You don't really have a gut feel for, for what they're going to do. People won't discount them because it's Manchester United. But I think this season, more than the many in the past, they've kind of shown that the order and the historical reputation isn't counting for a great deal.
- [21:24]
Snoop Dogg
To be fair, Phil as well, United might be 14th, but Tottenham are 13th, so it's only natural that you'd expect fractional.
- [21:31]
Phil Hay
Yeah.
- [21:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Laura, I have to talk about. We have to talk about the prot to the Manchester day against the Glazers. Obviously Ineos have had a. Now have a stake in the club and we're used to talking about what they're doing at Manchester United. But, you know, I've seen one of the banners saying, you know, one billion stolen Glazers out. I mean, obviously the fans are disgruntled, but do they have cause to be disgruntled? Is it justified?
- [21:54]
Adrian
Yeah, I think absolutely, because the, the main focus of their aya yesterday was. Was the Glazers. So that's what they're talking about. The 1 billion is a reference to the, you know, the net cumulative interest that has been paid on the deb that the Glazers leveraged onto the club in their takeover in 2005, which was bought for I think total £790 million. So, you know, and some of that was their own money. So 270, I think something like that was their own money that they paid for the shares and then the rest of it they loaded onto the club and the club has now had to pay a billion in just the interest on that, which is absolutely staggering and scandalous. I mean, it shouldn't have been allowed. It wouldn't be allowed now. So that's why fans are angry and that's why there needs to be this sort of change of perception about the Glazers as giving United everything they could wish for in Terms of transfer fee. The club being able to generate so much money has then enabled United to sustain such an aggressive takeover. But it has ultimately come home to roost because then you're looking at how they're going to fund to build a stadium or make renovations and that's going to take more debt, we think. So how are they going to all balance out when you've got banks that already are owed money and they're not going to just accept more debt being loaded onto the club and the interest rate then is going to be, again, significant. So there's that in terms of the billion. There's also billion pounds of debt that they're currently in, in terms of the gross debt that's still on the club, in terms of the revolving credit facility that they started taking out because of the pandemic, and in terms of transfer fees owed on players that they've already signed to. So money owed to clubs. So, yeah, it's. The club is creaking under that kind of pressure. It is still, you know, one of the most profitable clubs going if you take out the debt and the transfer that they've been making. So Jim Ratcliffe has obviously come in with a agenda for change in job cuts and I think certainly to a degree that was necessary. There was bloating at the club, I think nobody would really deny that. But the extent of which the cut's happening, I think is a cultural thing for Mineos and Ratcliffe. So some fans are disgruntled about that. There's certainly staff disgruntled about that and more. So, you know, morale amongst some people is very, very low indeed. And so this was a kind of culmination, you know, organized by the 1958 group. They didn't have a specific sort of desire in mind. I think they just wanted to show their anger. Yeah, anger's probably the right word at the current situation. So they sort of wore black to sort of mark the slow death of the club in their eyes. There's also protests from Manchester United supporters Trust over ticket prices. That's a real key issue at the moment. So we expect that ticket prices will go up just, you know, by pure numbers. And what has happened already in terms of the 66 pound ticket being introduced by Sir Jim Ratcliffe. So you've got these kind of different forces at play amongst the fan base, but all of them, I think, want the same thing in terms of ticket prices, staying competitive. And also a stadium sort of fit for purpose and also a team that wins. You know, it's I know it's maybe, maybe it's not too much to ask, maybe it's a lot to ask for, but I think that's why you've got this kind of simmering tension underneath the surface. Ratcliffe was there in the stands yesterday in the director's box. So was Ed Glazer actually one of the lesser known Glazer siblings. He was actually spotted dining at the Ivy in Manchester the night previous. And I was. I was impressed that people knew who he was and recognised him and took the footage because, you know, usually it's Avraham and Joel who are kind of more recognisable. They're the ones that are more, you know, involved in the club still. Ultimately, the Glazers collectively are the majority shareholders, even though Sir Jim Ratcliffe is the largest indie individual shareholder, or INEOS are. So, yeah, they want a full sail. The fans yesterday, that's what they wanted. You know, the glaze is totally out, but how is that going to happen? Because we've got to this point already where they've been able to kind of cling on to power, money and bank a lot anyway. And, yeah, it's just a real difficult, you know, situation to try and solve.
- [25:39]
Phil Hay
I have a question about this. How much do the Glazers even flinch at protests like this? How much do they care? How much are they interested? How much does it in any way affect them? Because they feel massively at arm's length, you know, from like, the streets around Old Trafford and having followed, you know, not particularly closely, but having followed a bit, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, they run in NFL. Doesn't it seem as if criticism gets to them much in a way that makes a constructive difference?
- [26:06]
Snoop Dogg
Clearly, they've been so far removed from Old Trafford, you know, they're very rarely a presence there. It all kind of stems back, I think, to their very first, the very first occasion that they even came to Manchester and they came to Old Trafford, there was huge protests outside in 2005. They had to be shepherded in people carriers and pushed into the building. Very, very febrile atmosphere, I think, ever since that point, perhaps understandably. But then you can also understand why there's such anger and frustration. They really haven't wanted to engage or really be seen or be present. And to that extent, they can feel quite distant from it and they will stay in Florida and, yeah, basically stay away and avoid it. And I think to that extent, these protests don't perhaps have that much of a material impact. But then I do think it's also important to show that there is that anger and there is that sentiment among the fan base as well, and that is necessary. You know, there's a lot of different fan groups around United at the moment, that each approach dealing with this issue of the Glazers ownership in different ways. And I think it's actually quite important that there is that variance between them, because you have elements like the Manchester United Supporters Trust, who can engage with the club on matters and have that dialogue. But then you also have the 1958 who are. Who are providing at least a very vocal street element, if you like, of a protest against it, which can be more vociferous and a bit more militant, if you like as well. And I think to have those different fan elements on both sides. Look, how much does any fan process really increase pressure on an ownership unless you're actively not going in the stadium and not handing over your ticket money? And that will always be not just the main criticism of these protests, but of protests at just about any club. But I think the way that both fan groups and United fans in general are approaching it at the minute is about as much as they can do, really, to put pressure on the ownership.
- [27:59]
Adrian
I think in terms of the Glazes, you're right. From all that I've ever heard, this kind of stuff didn't really impact them. They've got thick skin and as you say, they've got an ocean of water in between it happening. So, you know, to a large degree, they came very occasionally, you know, for the showpiece events. Jim Ratcliffe's a different situation, I think, because, you know, he's bought the club and he's trying to, you know, build a stadium and he's trying to make the team winning again for reasons of his own sort of legacy, I guess. So if you've got fans that are disgruntled and showing that very vocally, then is that really what you all. What he envisions, envisaged? So I think if he's having these dialogues, you know, they have these exco meetings, you know, pretty regularly where he does see the Glazers. So if he's seeing this firsthand and then is he reporting back to them to say, listen, actually we need to sort this situation out. That's maybe one. One view. I did try myself to go and, you know, ask Joel Glazer, you know, what he thought about these protests in Washington, Washington D.C. and knock on his door and go to his office. He wasn't in, so it was a futile mission. But I Did I, did, I did chase after Avraham Glazer?
- [29:04]
Phil Hay
Should have gone to the Ivy, Laurie.
- [29:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, exactly. No, he's already there every weekend. That's how he spotted him.
- [29:10]
Adrian
It's a very nice restaurant, actually. I did, I chased after avram in the MetLife Stadium after the pre season game there and sort of got him for a couple of questions. But, you know, it just doesn't really. You don't get a chance to actually properly ask them, does this have any impact? I think where it did and could do again, you know, the protest that got the Liverpool game called off was obviously very, you know, militant to your point, Critch. And that will have had an impact. And also the sponsors, you know, if they can kind of target sponsors in a way that makes sponsors second guess whether they want to be associated with a club, I think that's ultimately, that's going to have to have an impact on their, you know, running of the club, hasn't it? Right, so they're the two areas. But I agree with Crit. I think it's, it's, there's different ways that fans are approaching this issue. Credit to all of them that kind of have the passion and the commitment to make their voices and feelings heard and engage with the club in a way that can actually make real change. So, yeah, I think I would always sort of endorse fans having a voice.
- [30:05]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, fantastic critic. I know you've got to go, but thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you jumping in, bro.
- [30:09]
Snoop Dogg
Nice one. No problem. In a bit, lads.
- [30:14]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, next we'll look ahead to the summer transfer window and how much Manchester United need to do to give Reuben Amarim the squad he needs to succeed at Old Trafford.
- [30:25]
Adrian
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accemolere. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamolera. What I can say is that we.
- [30:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Need more Bruno that is clear. Not just the quality, the character, not some mistakes, but the character that he has. The availability in this league is so important and is so decisive with the ball and without the ball. All right, let's look ahead to the summer. Laurie, what could the knock on effect of not qualifying for Europe have on the scale of, I guess, the rebuild that Amarim's trying to oversee? Because we've talked about potentially lack of personnel, but also, you know, if you want players of the caliber of Bruno Fernandes in different positions, that's going to cost you money.
- [31:10]
Adrian
Yeah, I mean, I was speaking to, you know, my esteemed colleague Ian Irving yesterday and he was saying, you always want a Bruno Fernandes as a number six, a Bruno Fernandes as a number 10, and then maybe Bruno Fernandes as a center forward, because he obviously does, you know, put the ball in the back of the net and he has. He shifted all around, hasn't he, Bruno? So you can clearly see that that's where there needs to be some work done. I do think that the wing backs is such a sort of specific role, really, that you need players that are very creative and attacking and have sort of just enough defensive nows to kind of COVID back. So obviously Patrick Dawgu being the one signing in January, really, I would expect them maybe to go for another one as well in the summer. Giovanni Kenda is someone that's been looked at as David Ornstein has writt. And so, yeah, but centre forward is the big priority, it feels like to me. Just because you've got Rasmus Hoyland who has had a real difficult spell and I sort of fluctuate in my feelings as to how much that's down to him, how much is that down to the team and then just the club on a wider basis. And then Joshua Xerxes kind of had a bit more of a renaissance more recently, but still, you know, sort of only scored that one goal in a long stretch. So you need. United can't have another season like this where. Where they're looking around for goals. I mean, no one's hit double figures in the Premier League this season. Very unlikely to. Maybe Bruno will. I think he's got seven now in the Premier League, but you're really struggling to find any player in the team that you can go, that person's going to score today. Ahmad being injured has obviously impacted things. Chido Obi coming through from the Academy. He's 17. The acceleration on his career has been happening at a quicker rate than people expected, quicker than United expected, clearly, because he's not in the Europa League squad, they chose Jack Fletcher instead and a couple of other players. Yeah, clearly center forward is going to be an area to address, but as you say, Ayo, you know how much money they're going to have. Omar Barada spoke at the latest meeting that announced the round of redundancies that we're going to see coming. You know, another sort of 200 jobs we think are at risk, and said basically that the calculations have been done with the next four years being Europa League in mind. So you're sort of thinking, well, on the one hand that's you Know, sort of glass half empty, because actually they could qualify for the Champions League and then it's a lot more money. On the other hand, they don't qualify for Europe at all. And actually, you know, have you actually undercooked how many. You know, I don't know how much savings you need to make. So they need to sell. Absolutely. First out of the gate, you know, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Tara Malassia, players that are already on the way out, I suppose you'd want to try and get money in for them. But does it then, you know, mean, as we spoke about earlier, you know, a Garnacho, Romania also going out so they can really revamp the squad.
- [33:47]
Ayo Akimolere
How easy do you think is it is to sell on Marcus Rashford? Because we spoke about it before. I mean, that's a lot of money to have to put down for wages like that. I mean, if he has a great time at Aston Villa, great. But he's still a massive asset for a club to take on.
- [34:00]
Adrian
Yeah, huge. 40 million. I mean, it's 27 now. We've reported about the issues that he's had at United, you know, and other clubs will be aware of that. And he's not actually started that many games for Aston Villa. I know he's come off the bench and he's made an impact, certainly in against Cardiff, didn't he? He got assists and so he's certainly shown, you know, more of what he can do. But that being said, he, you know, he isn't. He hasn't displaced Jacob Ramsey yet. In terms of the starting lineup at Aston Vil, it'd be intriguing to see how the rest of the season goes. Obviously, being in the Champions League is a huge platform for him, and a lot of clubs were looking at him in January. You know, we are being serious about Barcelona, about AC Milan, about Borussia Dortmund. So there could be a market there for him. But it comes down to ultimately, how much is he willing to accept as a salary, how much are United willing to pay him as a sort of golden goodbye almost, because, you know, he's signed a contract for another two years, so he could theoretically just sort of wait it out. So there's going to be a crunch moment, though, that comes in the summer, and it'd be, yeah, fascinating to see who comes in for him.
- [34:59]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Phil, I can't help but think United have kind of got themselves into a bit of a pickle, really, bringing in a coach with a very distinctive style, but not allowing him, the personnel at this point to even work with it. But at the same time, there's going to have to be a massive overhaul with this style. Do we feel like the hierarchy are thinking, yeah, we're going to have to get rid of a lot of these players just to make sure Amarim needs to succeed, because he has to succeed, but he can't do it if he doesn't have those players.
- [35:24]
Phil Hay
No, if they're serious about this, then, yeah, they will have to do that. And that's why when I listened to Amaram talking about how he won't have as much time as Arteta and all things being equal, probably won't have as much time to settle in. But even though he's saying that, I think he does genuinely need it. I mean, it makes no strategic sense to employ a manager without planning in advance for what needs to happen with the dressing room. And if your dressing room isn't set up for whoever's coming in, then you need to think to yourself that you will have to allow a certain period of time in which you can make that happen. And I also think there's no chance that Amaram would have, prior to taking the job, during the discussions with United, not have spoken to them about how he wanted the squad to, to shape up. People might have read a week or so ago an interview that Andy Mitten did with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer over at Besiktas and he was. One of the lines in there from, from Socia was him saying, every manager at United seems to end up playing with the previous managers, players. And I know that's nature of football and that's, that's how it is. It's not as if a manager arrives and a new squad comes with him, but it does very much feel as if coach after coach at Old Trafford has this legacy of, of players who they, they don't really want. I mean, everything about Amarum's tone and body language gives you the impression that he kind of hates the makeup of this squad and it's not right for him and it doesn't work for him. And it, it needs to change. But the issue is, I see it is going to be money because they, they have this really high, high income man United, but they've also got these massive debts. And unless I'm reading it wrong, the PNS pressure still seems to be there, which means they're going to be restricted when it comes to what they can actually do and how quickly they can do it. And it is suddenly important that they do qualify for the Champions League, the Europa League. Has almost become a bit of a means to an end for that. The trophy itself, I'm not saying it's immaterial. They'd be happy to win it, but what they get from winning it, beyond the money of the Europa League itself, is probably so much more important for future development. So it's going to need multip transfer windows this, and I know that's become a bit of a cliche for new managers. They need X number of windows. They need time to. To do this, that and the other. But I think I'm saying it because in the transfer market, United are genuinely going to have to allow for the fact that they have to stay within PNS limits, which seem to be pretty tight. So I think the short way of saying all that is it can all happen this summer, but it has, you know, some of it has to happen this summer because, you know, Abner can't kind of go around in circles like this indefinitely.
- [37:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Laurie, how astute do they have to be in these transfers in the summer, especially to bring money? And we talk about psr, we talk about all these kind of stuff because they're in a very interesting position where people know they're struggling and they know they need to get rid of players. So in essence, that devalues some of the top assets of the team. But also, if you're not getting European football next season, people know they potentially could be getting a bargain of some. Some of some of United's most prized assets.
- [38:12]
Adrian
Yeah, I mean, you have to have leverage, right, where you basically, basically let people know that you're willing to keep these players at the club. So I certainly think by the end of the January transfer window, it felt like Rashford had to go. But by the end of it, there was sort of a noise that, okay, maybe he could stay actually, and maybe there could be some kind of resolution. I mean, Amarin was doing his best to sort of let people know that wasn't going to happen. You know, George Vettel on the subs, bench and whatnot. But I think they will have to be careful in terms of how they approach. Approach different talks in the summer. That being said, people aren't stupid. They'll know the reality of the situation. It's just, you know, they'll have to make a call, but they are. It's a difficult position to be in. Right. They're not. We went under Sir Alex Ferguson. They were at the top of the food chain. Everyone wanted to join them. So they had players putting pressure on their selling clubs to. To let Them go for maybe cheaper than they would have ideally liked, you know, and you've got United being able to sell better because people are thinking, well, you know, if they're not in that team, they are at least title winners or they've maybe played a few games in that team. So, okay, they're worth a certain amount of. Very hard to say that these players are worth loads of value in the current climate. And it's like what Man City have been able to successfully do for a long time in terms of their academy sales, although quite a lot of them are now in the Premier League, can do pretty well. So, yeah, I mean, and that's why I think they're going younger, because they know that, okay, it's a bit more of a risk to take these players at the ages that they might be. But if they do succeed, then they've actually got them for a good value on a salary. Importantly, that isn't exorbitant for a good length of time. And that's the kind of reset that think they're after.
- [39:47]
Phil Hay
Who are the red lines, Laurie? Who. Who would Amaram, you know, say over my dead body you're going to sell. Is there anybody?
- [39:53]
Adrian
Yeah, I mean, I guess Bruno, right. Like, because he's just so integral. But you're right, I think that near enough, most players in the. In the squad we've either heard about being, you know, in for talks, clubs interested, United open to looking, you know, for offers for. So I'm trying to go through it really.
- [40:11]
Ayo Akimolere
I just think Yoro. Someone like that probably won't be Yoro, you're saying?
- [40:14]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I would presume is.
- [40:15]
Adrian
Yeah.
- [40:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Amad as well. Yeah.
- [40:17]
Adrian
Ahmad. Yeah, of course.
- [40:18]
Phil Hay
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Adrian
I mean, Masrabi's been pretty good. I just. A lot of them just. There just probably wouldn't be a market for them anyway. So that's why you then come down to the players that are already on the periphery and Audrey on the way out and then. Yeah, the couple of younger players that we've mentioned.
- [40:31]
Ayo Akimolere
Right, let's end it there. Laurie, Phil and also Mark for earlier as well. And thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [40:39]
Adrian
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aili Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production. The Athletic FC podcast network.