Dan Kilpatrick (2:16)

Pleasure to be here.

Ayo Akemolere (2:16)

All right, let's get into this. David, last time we actually spoke about Forest, I think it was last week. We asked, how much time will Ange Postecoglou get? Well, we know it now, 39 days. Days to be exact. Did you see this one coming?

David Ornstein (2:29)

Well, I think with Forrest, expect the unexpected. Nothing really surprises you, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but it's a lively place, to say the least. Under the ownership of Evangelos Marinakis, and take nothing away from the rise that they've had under him and actually stability that they had in the form of Steve Cooper and then even Nuno Espirito Santo himself. So any sort of reputation for chopping and changing at a rate of knots is somewhat unfair. But of course, this is a pretty extraordinary situation. And it didn't feel that Anepostecoglou's appointment came about as part of a sort of thorough process. It was more a decision led from what it appeared by the owner, Marinakis himself. They had a personal relationship this time round. I think they've gone through a more thorough process to try and get it right. And really, from the very off, it didn't feel quite right in terms of some of the way he came across in his communication, the vast discrepancy between the style that Nottingham Forest were exhibiting under Nuno Espirito Santo and the style. Style that Ange Postecoglou plays. They couldn't be sort of more diametrically opposed. And, you know, results were going against them, despite some encouraging moments. But moments is all it was, and that's not good enough, really. And as negative records began to accumulate, and he sort of statistically was, I think, the worst manager in terms of the start of rain in Forrest's history, at least modern times, you got the feeling it was only going one way. And during the international break, you got rumblings that they were considering, considering potential alternatives in the event of a change. And then when you start with a heavy defeat by Chelsea after the international break, it seemed like it was inevitable and only a matter of time. I don't think any of us expected it quite as quickly after full time. But if you're going to attribute a mistake to Evangelos Maranakis, I guess you could also show him some respect for the way in which he has set about rectifying it and not letting things get worse. Now, you could argue Angepostecoglou deserve more time, but clearly the Forest hierarchy, he didn't believe so. And they want to arrest the decline. They want to get their season back on track. They've got domestic and European targets to try and achieve, and it will be fascinating to see where they go from here. After a pretty remarkable and extremely short tenure of Ange Postecoglou with questions now on where he goes as well. And I'm sure we'll get into that today.

Ayo Akemolere (4:56)

Yeah, for sure. Paul, where does the blame lie? The man that does the job or the man that gives the other man that he knows who's the best mate a job?

Paul Taylor (5:06)

It's both, really, isn't it? I mean, as David hinted there, it kind of felt like it was a poor fit right from the start. You had the kind of comfort of Nuno Spirito Santo and there was a kind of certainty you knew what to expect from him. He had an identity, a blueprint, a way of doing things. Forest didn't give a lot away. They were disciplined at the back, they were organized. And to go from that to then the kind of chaos of Angeball, then all the uncertainty and the risk taking that that brings just proved to be a step too far. So it was a poor appointment, it was a badly judged appointment. It was too much change from one man to another. But Evangelos Maranakis has completely recognized that error and has moved to address it. So, you know, you've got to give him some credit for at least holding his hands up and saying that he's got the decision wrong. And hopefully somebody like Sean Dyche feels like a steady hand on the teller and somebody who can come in and deliver the same qualities that Nuno Esperto Santo gave to the side.

Ayo Akemolere (5:56)

Yeah. Dan, is 39 days enough for Ange Postecoglou to work his magic? I mean, is it fair that he was let go so soon?

Dan Kilpatrick (6:04)

I don't think 39 days is enough for any manager, really. But equally, I think there was a case that this might have only gone from bad to worse. You know, I covered spurs last season and there were many, many points during that season where I thought spurs had reached an adir in the Premier League. And then it got worse. Martin Samuel's done a column in the Times today which I thought was very on the nose, where he mentioned that famous Mick McCarthy quote, One win in 17. It can't go on like this, can it?

Paul Taylor (6:33)

It can.

Dan Kilpatrick (6:35)

And I think there was a case that this would have kept going downhill for. Partly, I think that was due to the circumstances Postecogli walked into. It's not all his fault. Forest were in decline toward the end of last season, as Paul will know. And in came a manager trying to dramatically change the style of play. And not only did he not have a pre season, did he not have a summer transfer window, but he had a European campaign to contend with. So Forest were playing every Three days. He didn't have any time on the training pitch. He didn't really have anything apart from preparing for games and recovering from games. So it was a tough situation to walk into. The squad wasn't necessarily suited to what he wanted to do either. I think really the big difference between Postecoglou coming in at spurs and Postecoglu coming in at Forest was when he came in at Tottenham, everyone was desperate for that change. You know, they were scarred by Mourinho and Nuno and Conte and they wanted someone to play front foot football. They wanted someone to be more uplifting rhetorically and kind of, you know, sell them a dream. Forest fans didn't want that, nor did the squad. They loved Nuno, he's the best manager in 30 years. There was no appetite for that change. So it was a really difficult situation. Postecopi walked into. Paul will know better than me kind of how he played, that tough hand and I think, you know, he didn't play it perfectly, but I do think it was rough. I do think he didn't have enough time really. You know, you look at Iriola at Bournemouth, by the way, I don't think he won. I think he won one of his first nine games. So that does show, you know, managers can recover from these rocky starts by it. But I think Marinakes were looking at this, thinking this could just carry on and, you know, we could quickly be in a relegation battle. So I do understand the decision.

Ayo Akemolere (8:09)

Yeah, it's a harsh exit, Paul, but as Dan was saying, I mean, we'll go into it a little later on, but did he help himself, especially with the fans, considering Nuno was the guy that done all this amazing work regardless of the style of football, and got Forest into a really promising position to push on.

Paul Taylor (8:26)

The thing that both Steve Cooper and Nuno had in common was that they managed to. They both understood the club, they understood the supporters and they understood that the City Ground can be a huge asset. The City ground in the last few years has been as noisy as I can remember it. I've covered the club for two decades now, which makes me feel old, but they embraced it and they form this bond with supporters. And Ange didn't really help himself because whilst he was very bullish, he had a deep well of confidence. Even in his most recent pre match press conference he went on this five minute defence of himself to one question. It took him five minutes to answer it. He was saying he will make Forest a success if he's given the time but broadly. Then he went into a defence of his time at spurs and started talking about himself. And Forest fans don't want a lot, but they want somebody who understands the club and understands the role that they're in and the responsibility they have. And for Postecoglou, when he spoke, it was mainly about himself and it was never about. He never used the word we or talked about Forest in a, you know, a sense that there was. He felt there was a bond there and a relationship there with the club. It was always about him as an individual. And I think that was where he went wrong, because that didn't adhere him to Forest fans at all. They had an idea of what they were going to get from Antepostecoglou because of the time that he had at spurs last season when they finished 17th, and that he was facing questions about his style of football and his commitment to it. All of those criticisms and doubts that were hanging over him at Tottenham in the final months of his tenure there immediately appeared during his time at Forest. So he complained that he was judged unfairly, but, reasonably speaking, he probably wasn't. He was just on what happened. And they formed a quick opinion of him because of that, I think.

Ayo Akemolere (10:00)

Yeah. Let's quickly talk about the sacking. I mean, literally, the decision came 10 minutes of full time. And I've seen countless interviews post match Paul, of players just being like, yeah, I mean, I went out to train and to warm down and I came back and there was. There was no gaffer anymore. Did they need to wait for the Chelsea game? You know, the defeat to sack him? We've had an international break. The signs weren't looking great before that either.

Paul Taylor (10:23)

I think they wanted to give him time. I don't think they wanted to sack him. They wanted it to work. They wanted Ange Postecoglou to be a success at Nottingham Forest and they wanted to give him as much opportunity to do that as possible. I think everybody behind the scenes at Forest was wanting him to get a positive result against Chelsea. And in the first half they played really well. And this kind of perfectly personified his entire tenure, really. They played really well. 45 minutes created 3, 4, maybe even 5 really good chances in that first half. Didn't score any of them. And then immediately in the second half, their defensive vulnerabilities pop straight back up again. They can see two goals in three minutes and it's all over. And that basically summed up Ange Postecoglou's time at Forest. You had the real Betis game Where they were absolutely superb in Seville. They could have gone in half time, four one up, but they didn't. And then they end up drawing the game two, two. That would have been a perfect opportunity for him to get that first win and sort of kill any talk off of him not having won a game of football.

Dan Kilpatrick (11:14)

So much about the way it unraveled at Forest was familiar to me as someone who covered Tottenham last season. I mean, the Chelsea game, for example, coming out and conceding two in quick succession after half time. That happened at spurs more than once last season. Obviously the set piece thing, the way they collapsed against Swansea, the playing great football against Real Betis in the first half in particular that Paul alluded to, but not capitalizing on those periods of dominance. These were all kind of trends we saw at Tottenham, which, and it does kind of obviously lend itself to the view that, you know, these were kind of postecoglou's failings in a sense, you know, the same patterns were playing out. So from that point of view it was quite difficult to defend him and say, look, this is a problem that's bigger than him, or this predated him or whatever because it was just the same trends we saw last season. I wonder almost if he's arriving in the Premier League five, six years too late in a way. We're now in a Premier League where Manchester City play a lot of long balls to Erling Haaland. We saw United go direct against Liverpool yesterday. Everyone's prioritising long throws. Arsenal are the best team in the country, but they can't score without set pieces. You know, it wasn't like this five, six years ago. And I wonder if Anja's kind of big picture approach and by his own admission, he doesn't. He's not interested in coaching set pieces and the dark arts. And I wonder if his football would have just been more successful in a different era. But through no fault of his own, he's clawed his way to the top and he's just kind of arrived in a changing Premier League where people are looking at different things.

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Dan Kilpatrick (14:50)

So yes, we finished 17th.

Paul Taylor (14:52)

If people think that's a reflection of me and my coaching, then again I think they're looking at it through the prism of I just don't fit. So we get to the current space where there's a different story to tell that maybe I'm not a failed manager who was lucky to get this job, but maybe I'm a manager that if you give them time, the story always ends the same. At all my previous clubs, it ends the same with me and a trophy.

Ayo Akemolere (15:15)

Ange Postecoglou's 39 days in charge comes in at the shortest spell for any permanent boss in Premier League history. Paul we just heard him in that press conference pre the Chelsea match. I mean, he came out fighting again and you spoke about it a little earlier, but what was the mood like from all the journalists that were there? Did it feel like Groundhog Day again? Did he just open himself up for.

Paul Taylor (15:39)

More questions in that room there were a lot of journalists who have covered Nottingham Forest for a long time and know about the club and know about the history of the place. And the immediate reaction was that he probably hadn't done himself any favors. We understood why he said what he said, but immediately kind of drew in a breath and thought, oh, that isn't going to go down well with Forest fans. And it really didn't. I've honestly never known, and this isn't a criticism, by the way, but I've never known a fan base turn on a manager quite so quickly as they did with Ange. The scenes against Mitterland where his own fans were singing, you're getting sacked in the morning, were truly remarkable. And he kind of understood it because they loved Nuno so much and everything he brought to the table. The transition was so big from Nuno to Ange that I don't think the fans could get their heads around it either. It was too much to take in all at once, too much change. And I think Forest fans had seen their most successful and they're probably one of their most popular on the Steve Cooper managers depart in non football circumstances in quite acrimonious fashion. And it's just been a chaotic month or two for them and they've had a lot to deal with, a lot to contend with, and I think they just demonstrated their frustration. The way that they were able to vent their frustration was a. Was against an Postecoglou.

Ayo Akemolere (16:49)

Unfortunately for him, Ange Postochli leaves Spurs not long after Dan. He takes the Forest job. Did he come back too soon? I mean, what is next for Ange Postecoglou? Surely for his CV in the Premier League? These two appointments aren't that great.

Dan Kilpatrick (17:06)

You know, it was a really difficult situation that Ange walked into and obviously it's easy to say with hindsight, but it was a big risk, I think, you know, he bet on himself and, you know, I guess he's lost that bet in terms of where he goes next. I do think it's really difficult to sort of play Sange, and I think it was really, really difficult after he left spurs as well, because he left spurs on the back of this strange season where they'd finished a record low in the Premier League, but won a trophy for the first time in 17 years. So it's just really hard to kind of place him. Perhaps it's a little bit easier now because I think, to be fair, I can't see him getting another Premier League job for a while unless he goes away and does a job somewhere else and is a success. I could certainly see him being welcomed back to Celtic. They are not having as difficult a season as their old firm rivals Rangers, but they're not top of the Scottish Premiership and when they're not top of the Scottish Premiership, that's a crisis. So Brendan Rodgers future might be in doubt. Whether Ange is the type to go back, I'm not so sure. But I could see him going to Germany, to a big club in the Netherlands, to one of those leagues and being a success because I think they're different to the Premier League. You know, those stylistic elements that I touched on earlier I don't think are quite so true there. International management perhaps where there's less day to day and it is more big picture. He's obviously done that before with the Socceroos, so I think he has options and I think he still has an impressive CV in many respects. But to be brutally honest, his last sort of. How many Premier League games did he have at Forest?

Paul Taylor (18:36)

5.

Dan Kilpatrick (18:37)

5. 5. Yeah. So his last 71 Premier League games, if you take away the first 10 as spurs, have been pretty disastrous and I think it would take a lot for another Premier League club to kind of take a punt on him now.

Ayo Akemolere (18:52)

Yeah, I didn't mean to be mean when I said, you know, where does he go next with this evening in the Premier League? Because of course like he's won the Europa League. But I'm just thinking about the league form he's had over the last season or so. Paul, you know, it's fair that he wants to back himself because he actually has achieved a lot. He's won trophies for sure. But when you're backed into a corner and you have to win your next match, why would you go into a press conference and say yeah, we're going to win a trophy. Do you not just open yourself up for the ridicule you are going to get? Because being a manager of a football club, especially in the Premier League for me requires a certain sense of self awareness one but also understanding what the fans need to hear and also how.

Paul Taylor (19:32)

You manage your personal profile because of circumstances. I didn't get the chance to know Anz Postecoglou particularly well from what we did know about him. You got the sense that he was a man that thought, well, well, if I don't believe in this, if I'm not bullish, if I'm not confident, if I'm not projecting the absolute belief that Ange Ball is going to work, then what are My players going to think he seemed to me at least like somebody who felt like he had to be the most invested of all in the way he wanted to do things. Otherwise what was the point? Nobody was going to believe him if he didn't believe it. I don't know what he was like at spurs, whether that was the case there or not. I know he was asked the same questions a lot of the time there.

Dan Kilpatrick (20:06)

You've touched on it there. But I think part of the problem that Ange's got really is that he's not the type of manager who could come in. Say he came in at Forest and just looked at it and said, you know, this is a tough situation. We've got a game every three days for the next three weeks. I'm just going to practice a bit of continuity, stick with Nuno's principles, get some results under my belt and then we'll start to change things gradually. That's not his way at all. You know, for him he's kind of all or nothing and you've got to be all in and you've got to be fully invested in the project from day one. And kind of, if you're not fully invested in the project, then you're not involved in it. You're on the outside. Is this kind of all or nothing mantra and philosophy and obviously that. That has worked tremendously well at his previous clubs, but, you know, didn't feel like Forest was the. For various reasons didn't feel right to go into Forest with that approach. Now I think in many ways that's a marinakis problem. You know, he's the one who hired this guy and he should have known that that's what he would bring. And it's not really fair to expect a manager to change habits of a lifetime. That brought him a great deal of success, but it just didn't feel right for the circumstances at Forrest.

Ayo Akemolere (21:12)

I think that's postecoglou dealt with. His departure now leaves Nottingham Forest in need for a third manager of the season. David, you're back. It's been a busy morning for you. You've reported. Shaun Deitch is up next. El Dacio. How on earth did we get here?

David Ornstein (21:27)

It's not a particularly well kept secret. His name's been floating around Forest for quite some time, not least because he was a trainee at the club. His assistants are sort of club legends in won and stone. I think he lives very nearby. He's often seen at Forest matches, so he's got connections there and that create a genuine Bond. He's also a very good manager, capable as we've seen most notably at Burnley, taking them to Europe in a not too dissimilar way to Nuno Espirito Santo at Forest, doing okay at Everton in incredibly difficult circumstances. He was basically running the club. They didn't have a board of directors, they had points deductions. He led them to safety. Did a bit of an underrated job there, I would say. And Burnley, it kind of speaks for itself. He's the closest stylistic fit to Nuno Spirito Santo from the names that started coming out. He certainly lot closer than Ange Postecoglou. The sort of defensive attributes, the set pieces which were so good but have since fallen off a cliff, the discipline, the English core, the Premier League experience. He does tick a lot of boxes. And we're reporting on the Athletic that at the time of recording they're close to completing an agreement with him on a long term contract. Some people thought it would just be short to the end of the season. Then go and get somebody like Marco Silva. You never know what's going to happen. But that's not the mindset that I've picked up from conversations around Forest. They think he can take them forward. Shaun Dyche and I would expect an announcement today. So perhaps by the time people are listening to this, it's already confirmed. How did they get there? Well, they would have been assessing candidates when Ange Postecoglou was in trouble. That's what most clubs do. I don't think it's particularly unusual. Forest tend to have someone lined up ready to go, which Paul has mentioned in an excellent read on what happened with Ange on the Athletic. So go and have a look at that. We revealed on Saturday on the Athletic that Roberto Mancini had been spoken to, which surprised a lot of people. But he's out of work, he's got Premier League pedigree, he's won with Manchester City, he's a top name. It would bring a lot of excitement. But the fact that he's been out of club management for a long time probably created some reservations. You've got a manager who's used to operating at the top level there and the circumstances are kind of different. That maybe makes Shaun Dyche a bit more suitable for these circumstances. The indications I was getting is that Mancini's camp were showing genuine interest in this vacancy, but I don't know if that was more to get back into the Premier League as opposed to Forest specifically, even though he has a Forest assistant in David Platt and connections to the club there. And then there's Marco Silva, whose name came up and. And he's very close to Evangelos Marinakis. They've got a strong personal relationship. He managed Olympiacos before. He's been linked with Forest in the past and maybe he will again in the future. But there's a very hefty release clause in his Fulham contract. He's tied down there until the summer. He's four or five years into the project there. It's not like he's been there for a year or two years and could easily just walk. Wouldn't accept anything less than the release clause, I'm sure. And therefore it would become a negotiation. And Forest wants somebody in for their game against Porto on Thursday, so that would have been really complicated in a way that, say, Daish isn't. So there's a process that's been going on here. We're told it's thorough, exhaustive, in contrast to the last one led by Edu and George Sirianos. And they've been looking at all manner of factors, studying the games of the candidates, in particular Daish, of course, the style of play, the metrics, the data analysis. Analysis. The defensive and attacking structures and set pieces kept being mentioned to me in multiple conversations I've had. You know, his man management technique, sitting down, having meetings, learning about his personality, how he can try and bring the best out of some of these signings. A really big, heavy summer of investment. Many of the star names didn't even make it into the squad at the weekend, and that can't continue. So it's at a point now where it's going to be on Shan Dyche and it makes for an interesting sort of chemistry with. With Evangelos Marinakis and. And let' they get on, but you never know. And they'll be optimistic that there's still a lot that they can take out of this season.

Ayo Akemolere (25:28)

Yeah, we'll be talking about how Deitch gets something out of this team later on, but, David, I know you've got to go. The news never stops for you, sir. Appreciate your time.

David Ornstein (25:35)

A pleasure as always.

Ayo Akemolere (25:37)

Yeah, Paul, I mean, Sean Deitch. You know, in your Inside Angie sacking piece you wrote, his main problem, in numerous different senses, was that he was not Nuno. Well, with Deitch, he's closer to Nuno. But will he suffer this as well, though? Because Nuno's football, yes, some might say, was at the most attractive, but there were moments of pure stylistic genius, I.

Paul Taylor (25:59)

Think, with the squad he's going to inherit. He has the best of both camps, I think. There's obviously a team there that can play with the structure and organization that both he and Nuno are famed for putting into their teams. But there's also some really, really good attacking players in there. I think I'm right in saying that Dice has spoken before about how he's perhaps been a little bit misjudged by some of the resources he's had to work with. For Burnley, for example, they were always overachieving with the squads that they had. He took them to seventh place and got them into the Europa League in 20, I think, or around that period anyway, for seven years. They probably had the best period in the club's history under him. And he is a manager that's probably a little bit more than he gets credit for. He isn't just a sort of bread and butter defensive grind out a 10 win and go and have pie and Masha tea. He's a bit more than that and I think that'll be evident. It'll be interesting to see how it unfolds at Forest because of the resources he's got, because of the players he's got. Will he stylistically be a little bit more attack minded? Will it give him the freedom to show another side to his management? What he does have massively in his favour is that like Nuno and Steve Cooper, he will immediately have a bond of sorts with fans because he was in the Forest academy and whilst he never made a first team appearance at Forest, he's often spoken fondly about the club and how much he enjoyed his time here and how much he enjoyed the principles of the way that the club was run in the Brian Clough era. And he also brings with him Steve Stone and Ian Woen, presumably, who have always been part of his coaching team and they're two Forest legends. They are properly people who've got a real history and a real fondness amongst the fans for. So he will have that in his armory. That should give him an advantage straight away. I'm sure at his first press conference you're going to hear him talking about Forest and the club and the history and. And how much it means to him, which immediately should set him off on the front foot.

Ayo Akemolere (27:42)

Yeah, Dan, can we see finally see Sean Deitch cook now? He's got a plethora of riches at his disposal.

Dan Kilpatrick (27:49)

I'm not so sure, to be honest. I think the concern, if I was a Forest fan, the concern would be in looking at Dyche And Mancini. That suggests to me that Marinakis isn't really sure what he wants or what kind of club he wants Forest to be. They're two very, very different coaches. Dyche is obviously the guy you hire to keep you in the Premier League if you're in the position Forest are in. That makes a lot of sense to me. But from David's reporting today, he's getting a long term contract. We'll wait to see what that actually means in terms of years, but it looks like he's, he's not just going to be coming into the end of the season or the end of next season for example. It could be longer than that. And I think the problem with Dice really is that he is a fabulous coach at keeping you up and getting you to a certain level. But the issue Everton had I think was that you will hit a glass ceiling under him. And obviously Everton's new owners came in, they wanted to kick on, they wanted to progress and he was sort of keeping them in what, 15, 16th, you know, in the Premier League. Competitive, but seemingly kind of unlikely to push a great deal higher than that. And I think that's why they replaced him with David Moyes. I wonder whether Forest might find the same problem. As Paul points out, he's going to have better players than he had at Everton. He's got some really good players there. Like, you know, I look at Elliot Anderson, I think, you know, one of the best young midfielders in Europe, Douglas Luiz. The new signings, we haven't seen much of them. Postecoglos didn't seem to play many of them but like there's some really, really good players there so maybe he will be able to produce more. But I suspect the issue might be that he keeps Forest up and then we're kind of in 18 months time we're sort of in a position where Forest are thinking, well we want to kick on. We want to be back where we were on Danuno and is he the guy to do this?

Ayo Akemolere (29:29)

Okay, well next let's look at what Sean Deutsch is actually inheriting at Forest.

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Dan Kilpatrick (29:55)

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akemolere (31:24)

Well over the summer, Forest spent 200 million pounds in the transfer market on 13 new players. Out of the new bunch, only Douglas Louise and Alexander Zinchenko started on Saturday and they were both actually brought in on loan as well. Now, More surprisingly, over 120 million pounds worth of new signings, including James McAtee, the club record signing Omari Hutchinson weren't even on matchday. Squad Paul I mean, does this just underline how disconnected Forest are a little right now, but also I know we've talked about Deutsch's appointment in many respects, but you're bringing in a manager that's not known particularly for his attacking prowess.

Paul Taylor (32:00)

I think it was more symbolic of Postecoglou's chop and change attitude more than anything. He averaged I think just over five changes to his team in every game game. The least changes he made for any fixture were three. You didn't know what his team selection was going to be. You didn't know what his formation was going to be, which I think was fundamentally part of his problem as well. I think what Forest need, and probably what fans crave as much as anything, is just a Bit of familiarity, knowing what's coming, having an identity and a blueprint in their team Again, Steve Cooper did it a little bit, Nuno did it hugely. He gave them something that they could not take pride in. That's the wrong way of putting it. But they had faith in the way that they. They did things they knew that it was capable of bringing. And I think that's what they need is to go to the City ground at a weekend knowing what to expect and knowing that they've got a chance of winning a game of football and not that they're necessarily going to be sat there looking through their fingers every time the opposition attack.

Ayo Akemolere (32:54)

Be honest, how well suited is Deitch for this squad? Hopefully, you know, we see a new Deutsch, but realistically, how well suited is that style of manager for this plethora of players that they've got at his disposal?

Paul Taylor (33:06)

They are suited to. I mean, yes, there is going to be question marks there about how he utilizes all of the attacking talent that Forester have got, but fundamentally they've got really good footballers. If you've got Elliot Anderson, if you've got Douglas Louise, if you've got Murillo and Milankovic and Nico Williams and Olorina, when he's fit again, if you've got Chris Wood, a 20 goal a season striker who he's worked with previously, if you've got all of those players, however you look at it, you've got a core of a very good team. However they are asked to play, they are good players that should be able to adhere to whatever style of play that Shaun Dyche wants to bring in. And I don't think fans will necessarily mind it. I think they'll actually like it if there is more organization, more grit, better defending of set pieces. Any defending of set pieces would be a start. Just not fearing every time the opposition have a corner, a long throw or a free kick that Forest are going to concede a goal will be a great starting point. I don't think they're asking for much at the minute. Just a couple of wins would probably make them feel a whole lot better about life immediately. The expectations are high at Forest, but he is starting with quite a low bar for what is needed. He needs to get a couple of wins. He needs to make Forrest more difficult to beat. If he can achieve those things, then he'll be off to a flying start, I think.

Ayo Akemolere (34:14)

Yeah. I was going to talk about the transfer policy, Dan, and what you thought about it from a outside looking in, but I wonder how hard it is to even talk about a transfer policy when you've had three new managers in the space of a couple of months with a bunch of players that probably don't even know who they're playing with.

Dan Kilpatrick (34:30)

Well, I think the one thing you can say about the transfer policy is that it appears to have been a major reason why Nuno fell out with the club that set alarm bells ringing. Marinakers has brought in Edu as this kind of very powerful director of football for his stable of clubs. And I think at the time I thought, oh, wow, you know, that's. That's a big coup. They've got Edu from Arsenal and that's a sign of a really ambitious club. But, you know, so far, you've got to say it's been a bit of a disaster. You know, he's come in, he's signed a load of players that Nuno seemingly wasn't convinced about. That's led to Nuno's departure. He's then overseen, although I think we know that, you know, Marinakis and Postecoglou had a very strong connection. But Edu's nonetheless been in position for this disastrous managerial appointment. And another sacking and they've lurched back to the previous style of play. So what a good director of football should do is kind of come in and ensure there's a, you know, a philosophy and a strategy and an identity and a kind of culture that runs throughout the club from the boardroom, you know, right through to the terraces, that he should be ensuring that kind of line of continuity. And we've just seen the polar opposite since Adu came into forest. So that would be setting alarms bells ringing for me. And I'm kind of very intrigued to see how that appointment goes from here, really, because if this goes wrong, we'll have to start looking for kind of bigger scapegoats than the manager.

Paul Taylor (35:52)

Fundamentally, the thing with Edu is that it was an appointment that wasn't needed. They didn't need him. They had Ross Wilson, who was doing a very good job, you know, was basically director of football. He had a different title than that, but he was doing a. He was very well respected behind the scenes. He built the infrastructure at the club up very well. The training ground, the recruitment system, the scout system. He fundamentally done a very good job. So as well as losing Nuno, I mean, in circumstances of bros going are very different. He left because he got offered a very good job at Newcastle. It wasn't because of any situation at Forest, necessarily, but Edu's come in. And it was only one or two players that he really oversaw more than others, one being Amari Hutchinson. And there was also a suggestion that Nuno was a very big fan of Traore at Fulham and really wanted to sign him, and that was vetoed by the hierarchy. The suggestion being that Edu wasn't keen on him as a signing. So it's not that he's overseen all of the signings, Edu, but he, as his presence in the club, did prove to be the catalyst for the most successful manager in recent history leaving. So it hasn't been a success from that point of view. What you hope now is that Edu, who has had a big say along with George Sirianos in the recruitment of Sean Dyche, is actually going to have a far more positive impact on the way the future unfolds at Forest, because they've hopefully got the right man this time to replace Nuno. And it is to replace Nuno effectively, because Antepostecoglou never managed to. To do that.

Ayo Akemolere (37:13)

I want to talk about where forests go from here, because it's so interesting. I was looking at the last time Burnley under Sean Deitch were in Europe. It was the 201819 season when Burnley finished seventh, Forest finished seventh back in Europe. Sean Deitch back in Europe again, weirdly beaten by Olympiacos Marinakis Olympiacos in the Europa League, which I thought was really fascinating. Is there a European run here for Sean Deutsch, Paul, with this team at the helm?

Paul Taylor (37:42)

Well, the show should be. It's a squad that should be capable of going a long way in this competition. Spurs and Manchester United getting to the final last season is probably a sign with complete respect to them, that you don't have to be a brilliant Premier League side to make progress in this competition. Forest have definitely got the quality of player, the quality of squad and the ambition to go a long way in this tournament. And I think that will very much be one of the expectations that the Forest hierarchy have told Dyche they've got. He will have been given the instruction that you steady the ship in the Premier League, then look to get back towards the top half of the table as a bare minimum, I'm sure this season, and it's a challenge for Europe at the same time. Porto will be a difficult game on Thursday, but it'll be a fascinating barometer as well as to how far they can get.

Ayo Akemolere (38:26)

All right, gents, let's wrap it up there. Really appreciate your time, Paul, our new crisis correspondent for Nottingham Forest and also Dan, your calming voice and presence really helped. And also David for joining us earlier. We appreciate appreciate that. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

Podcast Producer/Announcer (38:42)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company producer production.

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