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- [00:00]
Narrator 1
We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.
- [00:30]
Narrator 2
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results terms and Cond Apply Vulnerability doesn't mean you have.
- [01:02]
Therapist Host
To be crying in front of people.
- [01:04]
Therapist Guest
Vulnerability can be just recognizing how you feel.
- [01:08]
Podcast Host
For so many men, vulnerability gets mistaken for weakness. But why? And what's that misunderstanding costing us? On the latest episode of Mind if We Talk, a podcast from BetterHelp Host and licensed therapist, he Su Jo unpacks the pressures around masculinity and how those expectations can leave men feeling isolated, disability, disconnected and stuck. Whether you're working on redefining your relationship with masculinity, trying to make a change, or just want to better understand the men in your life, this episode is a must. Listen Mind if We Talk is available now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:46]
Podcast Network Host
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:52]
Ayo Akinwale
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. Crystal palace are battling to keep their Europa League place while Lyon have been relegated to French football second tier. John Texter and his Eagle Football Group had stakes in both clubs last season, so is his multi club ownership model to blame? Here with us today we have our senior football news reporter Matt Slater. We've also got another Matt Wooznam, Crystal palace correspondent with us and also French football writer Tom Williams as well. Right, Matt Slater, let's get into this. The name John Text us back to us again because back in November you reported how Lyon were in threat of being relegated from France's league are by the dncg, the body that regulates the finances of French clubs. And this morning John Texter has resigned from his leadership position at Lyon with Michelle Kang taking over as chairwoman and president. Right, this is going to be meaty how did we get here?
- [02:56]
Podcast Network Host
Yeah. Today's John Sexton News. Amazing. This man is just a gift. I love this bloke. Yeah. How do we get here? Well, you've, you've, you've outlined the timeline. Ish. In your question. So in November, dncg, bit of a mouthful, that one. I won't tell you what it stands for, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. Is the financial watchdog French football. They've got a little standalone body. It's quite clever. It only looks at solvency of football clubs. The French have slightly unusual system. You know, they're not like UEFA, not like the Premier League. They don't have a set approach to financial fair play. They're not looking at, for example, a allowable loss threshold like we talk about. They're not looking at a squad cost ratio like UEFA does. They care about solvency. So that what they do is they do an assessment of each club as a going concern. Now, when people read the financial accounts of football clubs like I do, you'll sort of see in the orders of speak at the front of the accounts, an assessment by an auditor that this business is a going concern. That is it can pay its bills as they come for a year and they say yay or nay. I'm quite happy to put my professional reputation on the line here and say this company is a going concern. Sometimes they will say this is a loss making business and we've had a word with the owners of this business and they have agreed, they have committed to fund the differences and you'll often sort of see a note about that. Sometimes an auditor might say, there's a material real uncertainty here. I am a little bit concerned that this business is making losing too much money, has too much debt. But I'm going to sort of look, put a little kind of rider there just to sort of COVID myself. The DSCG sort of does that privately. It kind of gets all the clubs in and says, what's going in, what's going out? We want to see you cover that gap now. We want to see either you putting money in or a plan, something as good as money. A letter, very, very tight letter from a lawyer, from a bank. And this is the issue that John Texas got into. So this started in November, as you pointed out. They provisionally, they didn't like it, the assessment was bad and they provisionally relegated Leon. That was huge. You know, we've had this before. DNCG are, they do intervene, they have teeth. Texas said there's no problem here they just misunderstand my business model, which we're going to get into. I'm a multi club. They're not seeing the complexity. All right, this bit of the business, I can see there might be a flashing light, but it's okay because that's not how multi club models work. Going to sort it all out. I'm a player trading genius. Look how good Brazil is. We can sort this really, really quickly. They got into a 3, 4, 5 month, whatever it is conversation. They had another meeting late May. Texas thought that went well. He had a plan. He had a plan that the DNCG liked. Some of it was basically writing a check, some of it was shuffling some money around. He didn't quite deliver on the plan, to be fair. He has an explanation for why he didn't quite go through with what he agreed with him in May. He's pointing out that his second plan B, Plan C, whatever it was, is just as good. And they just don't get it. They just don't understand it, which is why they're going to go to appeal and why he's going to, you know, argue the case all over again. This might not be over, but it is fair. And I think he acknowledges this now, that what he said he'd do in May, he didn't quite do, which is why he goes to June, June 24th, and he's stunned. He's absolutely devastated. I know Matt's spoken to him several times and he didn't see that coming. Very, very quick hearing it was, no, you said you'd do this in May and you didn't do it. So that provisional relegation is now activated. So that's where we're at. And it's thrown the John text, the football empire completely up in the air.
- [06:50]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. What about Lyon then, Tom? Big, big club in France, right? Like, I mean, how many Ligue 1 titles did they win between 2001-2008? I think it was something like seven. You think about the talent that's come out of that club. You think about the managers that have come out of that club. This is a huge club. How has this been received in France?
- [07:07]
Therapist Guest
There's been a huge amount of anger. There's been a huge amount of shock as well, because, you know, as Matt was just saying, they've had this hanging over them since November. And when the DNCG announced Lyon's provisional relegation in November, there was huge surprise. I mean, for a club of that size, particularly a club that owns its own stadium, a club that owns its own training Facilities that had been a model of good governance for decades under Jean Michel Olas. To find itself in that kind of position was a real shock. But people said to themselves, well, he's got time to sort this out. So, you know, surely by the time we get to the end of the season, this will be okay. On the morning of the fateful hearing, and Matt mentioned on June 24, the headline in L' Equipe was, yeah, you know, John Text are very confident. You know, they've had time to sort things out. The expectation is that Lyon are going to be all right. So Lyon fans were reassured, were optimistic. They thought that, you know, they had this warning and they were going to get out of it okay. And as it turned out, no. So there's been a lot of shock and a lot of anger. I mean, you look at the way that, you know, Lyon's fans have reacted. There was a big supporter protest outside the stadium on Saturday. About a thousand fans turned up. There were speeches and flares set off and things like that. And then within, you know, the sort of French football fraternity, a lot of criticism. Sidney Govu, who's like one of the great Lyon players of that, you know, the seven consecutive titles era, he said, you know, this guy has pulled the wool over our eyes, you know, right from the start, he said things and he hasn't backed them up. And every time he's backed into a corner, he just sells more attractive visions of how he's going to turn things around. And we, you know, we're idiots for having believed in. And, yeah, that's been, you know, that's been the kind of general reaction. So, yeah, anger, shock and I think sadness as well. You know, the fact that you have this, this historic club. You know, Lyon have been Ligue and perennials since they came up under Jean Michel Olas in 1989. Generally speaking, they've always been in contention for European football. I mean, you know, they haven't competed for the title for a few years now, but they're generally a kind of a top four, top five team. They had been starting to slide in recent years, and that predates text as a rival, but they're still one of the biggest clubs in the country. So, yeah, it's. It feels like a real, a real hammer blow for Leon, but also for French football as a whole.
- [09:47]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, Matt, let's bring you in here because, you know, I'm interested to hear what sort of. Or get a sense of what Texter feels about it all, because back in November, upon the initial ruling he stated that there'd be no chance that they'd be relegated. Well, sorry, sir, it looks like it might actually happen.
- [10:04]
Therapist Host
Yeah, I think surprise is probably the reaction from Textar. I think it was a shock to him as much as Tom was saying to the fans. I think he was always confident. I think he is the ultimate optimist. He believes that everything will be okay. He believes in his plan and how he's going to operate and he thinks that that's going to work and obviously in this case it hasn't. And I think he went into that meeting, into that hearing with the DNCG full of optimism. Obviously Botafogo, his other club, doing really well in the club World cup, now knocked out, but at the time were doing well in the club World cup, had beaten, albeit a weakened PSG side. And I think he was kind of on a high and he had confidence that everything would be okay. But actually I think he's been very surprised, especially after UEFA. I think the following day UEFA formally confirmed that they had pass the sufficient checks for UEFA to get into Europa League in that sense. Although that is now subject to issues which I think Matt will probably go on to, about whether or not they can actually play in the Europa League, which potentially has knock on impact for Palace. But I think he found it hard to understand why UEFA would pass them but the DNCG wouldn't. So, yeah, surprise, shock. As I say, he went in confident and he's always been confident, he's always been optimistic and that is the John Texter and sometimes it works, but this time it didn't.
- [11:36]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, definitely want to talk about the impact on Palace a little later on, gents, but very quickly, only on trying to raise funds in this regard. What can they do in such a small space of time? I mean, I think I read something about PSG trying to pay the fee for Badik Bakala in advance just to help them out. I mean, are we seeing allyship here between PSG and Lyon?
- [11:57]
Therapist Guest
Yeah, that's been one of the surprising developments this season is that Nasser Al Khelaifi, the PSG president, and John Texter, who were at complete loggerheads a year ago. Those of us have seen footage of that infamous zoom call between all the Ligue and presidents, you know, won't forget it in a hurry. And Texas is one of the few people who sort of dares to go toe to toe with Al Khalifi and that has, you know, prior to, you know, Leon finding themselves in their current situation earned him a degree of respect in France. And there has been a rapprochement of late. Texter was invited to, I think it was one of the Champions League games against Arsenal as a guest of Al Khalif. And, you know, Texter inevitably, you know, made a big. Made a big fuss about that. And there were pictures on social media and things like that. And I think it was a sign that Al Khalifi realizes that as much as he has found Texta quite annoying, French football is stronger with a strong Lyon. And, yeah, there have been these reports, notably by RMC Sport, that, you know, in response to Lyon's relegation being confirmed, PSG have agreed to pay the fee for Bradley Bacola in full, rather than, you know, to pay it over the course of his contract, as was agreed when he first signed the deal. So that's a sign of the goodwill that there is towards Lyon within French football, but also a sign of the state of panic that Lyon kind of find themselves in. And, you know, there's an awful lot that we still don't know about this punishment. The details behind the decision have not been. Have not been widely reported on yet. The expectation is that, you know, that Leon will be scrambling to try and raise funds, but, you know, we're only, what, six weeks out from next season. They have an appeal that they are putting together an appeal that will go, you know, to the. To the dncg, and then if that's unsuccessful, they would have to go via the French Olympic Committee. And then if that's unsuccessful, they're having to go through the courts. So, yeah, an awful lot of things up in the air at the moment. I mean, Ligue 1, the LFP, which is the body that runs France's professional leagues, they released the fixtures the other day and Lyon were included in the Ligue 1 fixtures. So that even at that level, there's this complete, you know, sense of flux.
- [14:17]
Podcast Network Host
Yeah.
- [14:17]
Ayo Akinwale
Of course, they've already sold Ryan Turkey to Manchester City. And I think Malik Fafana also has been attracting interest from. From Chelsea. Matt, I'm just thinking about this. Nothing screams clubs in crisis more than this one, right? I mean, we've done a series on this kind of stuff already, but it's really fascinating when Ligue 1, because I think about Bordeaux, you know, there have been some casualties when it comes to administrative issues with clubs. I mean, this is. Isn't so unprecedented in Ligon, is it?
- [14:46]
Podcast Network Host
No, AOS Nonc as well. They got two relegations that she managed to halve that on appeal. Like I said, DNCG has teeth. The Picture is fuzzy. It does appear that the November requirement was. You're effectively, as far as we're concerned, Dncg, we're looking at your numbers. We think you' million euros short. So Texter was like, indignant. What are you talking about again? You just don't understand my business model. All right, fine, I can get you 50 million euros. Because as Matt Woozy sort of mentions John Texter whenever you talk to him about anything. Oh, yeah, it's fine. No problem at all. Money's no problem. And even right now, he's saying, we've got loads of cash. I just can't believe these people, they can't see how much cash we've got. We've got more cash than we need. He's a born capitalist, a committed entrepreneur. Cash is to use, not to sit around to satisfy an accountant. That's a waste of cash. So he's saying, hold on a minute, Dncg, I've got quite a good price for my shares at Crystal Palace. That money's coming. Just sold Shirky. I may well sell another player. I don't need to, obviously, because I'm in complete control. I'm the captain of my own fate. Boss Fogo going pretty well in the Club World Cup. We're doing okay for cash and he has gone round to the shareholders and said we won't have to put our hands in our pocket here. He says that he was willing to do that and committed to do that. Michelle Kang, who I think we're going to say a little bit more about, Michelle Kang is a billionaire, massive investor in women's football. She has bought half of OL's women's team. Fantastic women's team, still successful. She's around the table at Eagle. She's a shareholder in Eagle. She's been willing to write a check where things got a little bit complicated for him between that May meeting and the June meeting. Eagle Football, the big parent group that did own a great big chunk of palace, owns most of Lyon, owns Botafogo and owns R D Molenbeck that he's trying to call Daring Brussels. He borrowed a load of money to buy Leon from Ares, a big, big financial firm in the States. $425 million. They have been unhappy with him for a while. They wanted some of that money back. So most of the palace money will go straight to ares. He's been telling Dncg, and I think this is kind of true, to be honest, that he can use a little bit, probably about 40, $50 million if DNCG want more equity. So it is quite interesting, this sort of Barclay idea, this is I think very much for the papers. I think this is very much, you know, pieces broken out. I think Tom's points around Nasser Al Khalifi realizing that we need Leon because one of the big issues in French football for about the last three, four years is their TV deal. They are all struggling. The DNCG has been talking to all the clubs about putting more equity in because they are very, very nervous about this TV deal which is at the moment is just almost non existent. It's rubbish. So imagine taking a big club like Leon off the table. Everyone is looking at their books going, we kind of need Leon there. So that's what Matt Barkala situation's about. The actual money that Eagle may or may not need to put into DCG for the ncg, which they do. It got complicated because of his Aries issue. Aries were not happy about Texter and Kang putting more equity in because it kind of knocked them down. The pecking order within Eagle, they were like, we're owed a lot of money here, we need to be first to the queue. The point is that Texter is very confident in his own abilities to find money and he does appear to be able to do it. Every time he's challenged, he does come up with a new name, a new potential investor or a new lender. There are a lot of people in America who are willing to lend John Texter money. So he does sort of get into these scrapes and then kind of get out of them. But he kind of upsets people along the way. It is always a little bit kind of 11th hour and it is complicated. His story gets more and more complicated and I think the NCG have just got fed up. And just the last point I'll make is what's been confirmed today is that he is stepping away from Lyon and he's doing that because I think he's admitted he's terrible at French football politics. So he's going to put Michel Kang in there who's very respected and he's also as kind of chief executive, slightly different title, but is Michael Gerlinger who spent a long time working at Bayern Munich, was quite senior at the European Club Association. So again there's that connection with Nasser Khalifi who runs the European Club Association. He's a very well respected person in European football. And Texter is going to step away, create real distance between himself and Leon. And one last point I'll make, and this is again, will not endear him to Leon fans. I think it's him saying Botafogo are my number one club.
- [19:29]
Therapist Host
Interesting.
- [19:30]
Ayo Akinwale
Well, let's get into it. Let's discuss Jon Texter's role in Leon's demise, but also what this means for his role at Crystal palace as well.
- [19:41]
Therapist Guest
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwaleere.
- [19:48]
Podcast Network Host
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [19:51]
Therapist Guest
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [19:54]
Podcast Network Host
Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [19:59]
Narrator 2
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your your next campaign. Get started today@LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [20:17]
Therapist Host
Vulnerability doesn't mean you have to be crying in front of people. Vulnerability can be just recognizing how you feel.
- [20:24]
Podcast Host
For so many men, vulnerability gets mistaken for weakness. But why? And what's that misunderstanding costing us? On the latest episode of Mind if We Talk, a podcast from BetterHelp Host and licensed therapist, he Soo Jo unpacks the pressures around masculinity and how those expectations can leave men feeling isolated, disconnected and stuck. Whether you're working on redefining your relationship with masculinity, trying to make a change, or just want to better understand the men in your life, this episode is a must. Listen Mind if We Talk? Is available now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:58]
Narrator 1
We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.
- [21:31]
Therapist Host
Foreign.
- [21:36]
Ayo Akinwale
As your reference will appeal the relegation that the DNCG have already handed down. Now, this will be without Texter, and as Matt has alluded to, this could be really fascinating that he has resigned from his leadership role at Leon. What impact you think him resigning this morning will have on that club?
- [21:56]
Therapist Guest
Well, I think in the short term it will probably give people a bit of a lift. You know, the fans in particular have been calling for him to resign for for a little while now, but everything depends on the outcome of this appeal. If Leon win the appeal, Texter will perhaps be seen to have, you know, contributed to, you know, to that success by falling on his sword. If Lyon don't win that appeal, then Texter stepping away will be seen as a kind of a fruitless gesture really. So, yeah, you know, everything ultimately Leon boils down to what comes of, of the appeal. I think, you know, looking at Text more widely, I think that the damage that this has done to his reputation in French football is probably unsurvivable in the sense that, you know, all along there's been, there's been a sort of suspension of, of disbelief with Texter because of the way he works. You know, he's got a different way of operating, you know, as Matt was saying. And he, you know, he tells you what you want to hear and he sells you things. And all along Leon fans have had doubts and had concerns and they're not used to their club club, you know, finding itself in this sort of position, you know, under, under Jean Michel Orlas's tenure, which was, you know, 36 years, they never had any kind of scrapes like this with, with the dncg. They were seen as a model club really, you know, and, and people applauded the fact that despite not having wealthy benefactors, they were able to still occasionally, you know, ruffle PSG's feathers. And so there was just this hope that, you know, with Texter coming in, he would be able to kind of take them to the next level and that obviously, you know, is not happen. So, you know, difficult for him to, to bounce back from this in, in any way. I think the hope has to be that Leon win the appeal and that then with, you know, with, with Kang and Girling are in charge, they can then start to project forward and start making plans for the future. But yeah, you know, ultimately everything is going to come down to what happens with this appeal.
- [24:10]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. Matt, you spoke about Botafogo earlier and also the position in Texas Eagle Football Group. I'm just wondering what his big dream has been with, with this sort of multi club model and whether or not it's actually worked for Leon. Because I think I read recently that, you know, that there's an idea that he wanted to share players and share the wealth from Brazil, put it into Lyon, put it into Crystal palace, whatnot. Has it actually worked?
- [24:33]
Podcast Network Host
This is it. This is the question. Right? So ol fans will say categorically not to be fair to John Sexter, he is a committed and sincere believer in the multi club model. There are very few people that are trying to run it. The idea, you know, you sort of save costs, you have multiple footprints, you create pathways for your players, you create shop windows. He genuinely Believes this is the way, this is how football should be run. Yeah, there's sort of some sound economic logic to it. Unfortunately it is just a theory and I constantly sort of thinking to myself about which multi club group is actually making money and, or sort of winning and it's all very questionable. Me City Football Group's the obvious one, but they have a sovereign wealth fund behind them and they lose pots of money. And Man City do well, the rest of them occasionally do well, but not all of them. And then you've got Red Bull. Now Red Bull is a great big marketing exercise. Yeah, they've had a lot of success. They've got ruffled a lot of feathers. They've upset a lot of fans in, in Germany in particular. They do have a very, very clearly defined style of play. They have a lot of success in player trading. They are the ones that nearly all the other multi club models kind of look at and aspire to. But it is part of Red Bull's marketing budget. So it's quite hard because they don't re reveal all their numbers to get a sense of is it breaking even? Is it close to breaking even? Because that would be fine because like, like I said, they're trying to sell drinks. So, so those are the, those are the two. All the other multi club groups are experiments and you know, Texas been running this one. The thing that really winds up Leon fans. And this goes back to Jean Michel Arlas and the club he built there. They were textbook. They invested in their stadium, they invested in their training ground. They had a really, you know, I'll let Tom do the list of ex Leon players, Benzema, et cetera, et cetera. Fantastic, right? They had a women's team. They were ahead of the curve on so many ways. They then bought an arena to create footfall and to have another revenue stream. Guess what Text has done with most of this stuff? He sold it. He sold it. So OL fans just see this guy take them over and then asset strip them. He sold half the successful women's team to Michelle Kang. They had an offshoot in the NWSL in the States. OL Reign. He sold that. He sells the arena. That is making money. OEL is a listed company so you get loads of financial data on ol. He sold the arena back to Jean Michel Olas, but he knows which bits of OL are making money. So OL fans are looking at. Well, we used to have all this and now we appear to have a lot less. Oh, and by the way, Botafogo are doing really well and that's where the money flows. And ol fans are doing their own sums and saying, well, we've been bumping along. Okay, We've been. They almost got relegated a year and a half ago. Okay, he turned the season around and they had a great surge. So they're sort of saying, well, we've had a little bit of austerity, we've had a little bit of kind of selling stuff. Botafogo, who we're not one of the big Brazilian giants. He's thrown money at Botafogo. They had. Again, we have to be fed, John Sexter. They had an incredible season, season ago where they not only won the Brazilian title, they won the Libertasaurus. They're at the Club World cup on merit. They absolutely ruffled the feathers and shook Brazilian football up. So he can sort of point to Botafogo and say, there is my proof of concept. That is how multi clubs work. Oh, well, palace, as Woozy will tell us, didn't really have much to do at Palace. And Molenbeck, God knows what he's doing at Molenbeck. But anyway, so that's the story.
- [28:25]
Ayo Akinwale
Come on, Matt Woosman, talk to me. Let's already start opening up this Pandora's box that is Crystal Palace. And John Texter, how has his tenure and involvement at palace been? Because obviously we've heard the issues with Leon and how those fans feel about him, but what about the palace fans?
- [28:44]
Therapist Host
Ultimately, it's culminated in an agonizing wait to find out whether palace will be playing in Europe next season or Europa League, rather. Yeah, I think everyone is desperately waiting to hear whether they will be. But if we go back to when John Texter arrived, I mean, he came in hoping to buy a majority of palace and actually take over palace and have a controlling stake in palace. And he was convinced otherwise by Steve Parrish, perhaps, or for some reason he didn't end up buying a majority and he only took a 40% stake, hoping then to subsequently increase his stake through various means over time, through capital calls, which has happened, but hoping to increase his stake to become a controlling majority. And I think we can trace things back to that decision not to buy a controlling stake in palace, to what's happening now with the Europa League. I mean, it's certainly not been plain sailing for him at palace, even though he doesn't have particularly very much influence whatsoever. I mean, he had some involvement in the appointment of Oliver Glasner as manager. I'm sure that Steve Parish and the other owners would say, we knew Oliver Glasner was An excellent manager, we liked him, we were going to hire him anyway. I imagine that's the argument that they made to UEFA when they met. The four owners met UEFA at Neom when they were arguing that Texa doesn't have decisive influence over matters at Palace. It hasn't gone down well for him with the fans. I mean, this guy who comes in and disrupts things, that's effectively what he's done, is disrupted things in the way that he wants to operate. Paris has been there since 2010. He's been a great custodian for the club. He's presided over the most successful period of their history and, you know, the last 15 years have been fantastic for the club. The other owners, Josh Harris and David Blitzer, fellow American businessmen, they're effectively silent partners. They don't really come out and speak in public, they're very quiet. Whereas Texter comes in and suddenly he's saying all of these things and he's speaking and he's putting out these statements. And I think Palestine's didn't like that and a lot of them don't like that. I mean, there were protests against him from the homest fanatics, Palace's ultras group, and I think a lot of Palestinians were behind those protests. Although I think he would argue that there are also privately a lot of people who come to him. This is his argument is that people come to him privately and say, actually we like you think you're helping or doing a good job or whatever. So it hasn't really gone well for him at palace, but it all boils down to how much influence he has. He's one of four general partners. Palace's ownership structure is complicated, but. But effectively there are four owners who, regardless of their stakes in the club, have 25% voting rights each. So they get an equal say in how the club is run. But typically Parish, Harris and Blitzer are the ones who all agree with each other and Texter tends to be the outsider here. Texter has said palace is not a perfect fit for Eagle. He can't use his multi club in the same way at palace as he did in Lyon and Botafoga. And this is why, partly why he is selling or. Well, he's in the process of selling his 43% or Eagles 43% stake in palace to the New York jets owner Woody Johnson. I mean, that decision has actually gone down well with palace fans. I mean, Woody Johnson is clearly a very unpopular owner at the jets, but I think Palestine's are quite happy to see the Back of Tekstar, if you were to say, what is the abiding sort of feeling towards Tekstar at Palace? I think the word is anger, at least from what I can see publicly. And I don't hear this from anyone. Sorry, I don't hear anything otherwise, anything to contradict that privately from people that I know who are palace fans. No one is coming to me and saying, actually, we think Texas done brilliant for Palace. I don't hear that. I just hear all of this anger, especially, Especially palace won the FA cup. And I can't even overstate how big an achievement that was for palace and how much their fans absolutely are still reveling in it. I think it was six weeks on, seven weeks on, and they're still acting as if it was yesterday, and rightly so. Their first major trophy in their history, they qualify for Europe having. And the other aspect to this is that in, I think it was 1990 or 91, sorry, palace were denied entry to Europe because of Liverpool being reinstated early from their ban after the high school English clubs were banned after the Heysil disaster. So it would be history repeating itself. And for those who remember that time, again, that anger will just be even more palpable. So if palace had denied Europe because of John Texter having decisive influence at palace, then the fury is going to be off the charts. And as much as he might say that, there are people who come to him privately and say, well done, or we like you, that's not what I'm saying publicly.
- [34:05]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, Matt, keep that fire burning because I want to talk about Palace a little later on, just before Tom has to go. Before you go, Tom, please just give us a sense of how damaging this could be for the French League. Matt spoke about that TV deal and how, you know, Ligue 1 really needs eyes on it. But let's say Lyon lose this appeal. I mean, this is a team that's produced the likes of Lacazette, Benzema, Samuel Ntiti. I mean, this team fundamentally has given so many players to the French national team, World cup winners. I mean, this could be really huge if Lyon go down.
- [34:42]
Therapist Guest
Yeah, I mean, they would leave an enormous gap. I mean, it would be good news for Hans because they would no longer be relegated. It would be good news for Strasbourg and Lens. Strasbourg, who would go into the Europa League in Lyon's place, and Lens, who would take Strasbourg's place in the Conference League. But yeah, there are very few clubs in France that have the appeal that Lyon have. And I think, you know, particularly in the context of the current moment, you know, as Matt Slater was saying, before, we find ourselves once again in the grip of another Ligue 1 TV rights fiasco. And ironically, the clubs have agreed that they're going to set up their own channel. And one of the few people who was banging the drum for this when it came up as an, as an idea last summer was John Texter. Vast majority of the other League 1 presidents weren't interested, said, no, we're going to go with a more traditional model with, like, a main broadcaster. And they went with Dazzo and that didn't work out. And so they've gone back to the drawing board. And a consequence of that is that the dncg, there they are again, instructed, you know, French clubs that when they put their budgets together for the forthcoming season, 20, 25, 26, they couldn't include any TV revenue whatsoever, because no one knows how much TV revenue there's going to be. And we still don't know. This new TV channel is in the steps of being put together, but there's still an awful lot of uncertainty about what it's going to look like, about how much it's going to cost for subscribers and, you know, bottom line, how much money it's going to generate for French clubs. So, you know, French clubs are desperate for any kind of good news at the moment. And, you know, there are bits of good news. Psg, the European champions, Marseille are back in the Champions League. Paul Pogba is going to be playing in Ligue 1 for the first time ever, you know, having. Having signed for Monaco. And so there are all these, you know, these kind of green shoots and signs that things might be about to take a turn and go better. And then you get something like Lyon being relegated, which would just be, you know, enormous. And for the last, the last sort of, you know, kind of 10, 10, 15, 20 years, probably, along with PSG and Marseille and Monaco, they have been one of the big achievers, you know, one of the real drivers. Although they haven't won Ligue 1 since 2008, you know, they've reached two Champions League semi finals since then. And ironically, they've done so at times when, you know, things weren't always going all that well domestically. So that they're a club who have managed to put French football in the spotlight and, you know, simultaneously producing all these wonderful footballers. I mean, you know, the list is ridiculous. The players who've come through that, that Lyon academy, you know, what would that mean for the club's ability to attract players? If, you know, suspicion is that If Lyon were to find themselves in ligue, they'd bounce back straight away, but you never know. So, yeah, it would be. It would be an enormous blow for French football and exactly the wrong kind of time, because French football is just desperate for positivity, is. Is desperate for. For people to carry on watching. And, you know, you lose, Leon, and you lose a not insignificant part of that, of that audience and that market.
- [37:57]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah. All right, Tom, I know you gotta go, but thanks so much for joining us and I really appreciate your contribution, man.
- [38:01]
Therapist Guest
My pleasure. Good to be with you. Thanks, chaps.
- [38:07]
Ayo Akinwale
Well, next we'll turn our attention to UEFA compliance and ask whether Crystal palace will compete in next season's Europa League.
- [38:17]
Therapist Guest
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamwalere.
- [38:25]
Podcast Network Host
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Podcast Network Host
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Kristen Bell
Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
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Podcast Network Host
Goodbye, Truckee.
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Kristen Bell
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Podcast Host
Hello, other Truckee.
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Kristen Bell
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- [40:09]
Podcast Network Host
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akmolera.
- [40:15]
Ayo Akinwale
So, on Friday, Leon released a statement confirming they have completed completed the financial sustainability procedure and signed an agreement with the UEFA club financial control body. This means they'll be able to participate in next season's Europa League, should they satisfy the DNCG's demands. Matt, what more pressing for Crystal palace, really their fans, has been this ownership structure we've spoken about already. Should both Leon and Palace be able to participate in the Europa League in your eyes.
- [40:49]
Podcast Network Host
That'S Such a tough one. Look, Woozy outlines the argument. Right, so just to remind everybody, John Sexter owns about 43% of the shares of Crystal Palace. Well, Eagle Football does they have a shareholder agreement, the sort of four, if you like, largest blocks. Steve Parish and then Harrison Blitzer, Josh Harris and David Blitzer. They're a double act. So you've got four main shareholders, they have 25% of the vote each. Really simple. Right, So I think we can all do the maths there. 3:1 wins. 3:1 wins every argument. Now, I've already said that Harris and Blitzer are blocked votes. Harris and Blitzer have been working for Steve Parrish for what, a decade? Matt, is it? They trust him implicitly. Steve's their guy on the ground. He's Mr. Crystal Palace. He helped save the club with his original gang of mates, most of whom have. Have sold their shares. Not all of them. Some of them still got, you know, like local businessmen, South London businessmen. But Parish is very much the life and soul. He's the, you know, he's carried the flame. Texter loses every vote, every time. He doesn't, I don't think even bothers anymore. So it's 3:1. So this is the argument, right, so. So UEFA have got themselves into a bit of a pickle around multi club. They just sort of let it happen. Having previously in the 90s when Ennick. Oh, God, I don't want to go into too many tangents here, but when other people have tried to do it back in the day, UEFA have acknowledged that it could be an issue for competitive integrity of their competitions. You know, having, you know, same person owning two, three clubs in the same competition, there's at least the perception that, you know, something untoward could happen. The perception can be enough. So UEFA have in the past worried about it and they worried about it a little bit when Red Bull were forming, but they kind of of caved, to be honest, with Red Bull. And Red Bull were able to sort of create enough separation, Chinese walls renaming one of the clubs. So what we've had for the last decade is, well, we've sort of fudged it, right? As long as we create enough separation between these entities, two, three clubs, whatever it is, we're going to be okay. Probably what they didn't realize was that multi club ownership was going to come. The dominant ownership idea, the dominant investment idea of the last five years, and these groups are just proliferating. So what was an occasional issue, once every decade is now every year. And they have tweaked their rulebook a little bit and they've gone for this idea of decisive control and rule of thumb is about 30%. If you have about 30% of the shares, that's where we start to think you have decisive influence. If you're over that, they've endowed another kind of way out and that is to put the shares basically to put the company in a blind trust. Owner effectively appoints an accountant, a lawyer and says, I'm having nothing to do with that club I own. And this is what Sir Jim Radcliffe did with Nice. It's what Evangelist Marinakis was preparing to do. I think he's. I can't remember if he's actually going to go through it or not. I've lost track with him. But it's what he was doing with Forrest and Olympiacos to be ready for next season. Some of the multi club people, so the Villa owners are quite a good example here, diluted their shares down, they went below that 30% number in their Portuguese team. So that's the situation that palace have been in ever since the FA cup win. Again, I've sort of said this a few times now, to be fair to John Texter, he did appear to realize the issue before Steve Parish, he was talking about it, he was going over to UEFA, he was haranguing them at events and saying, please don't boot palace out. I don't have any decisive control there. I get outvoted. Unfortunately, again, if you go with the precedents, if you go with the numbers, he's over 30, 43%. He does have some sort of negative controls. Again, I'm always worried about introducing too much complexity. He can block stuff. So, you know, being able to block stuff could be an elephant of influence. John Text, that has. He is great fun when he's going. And he has talked up his role in the Glasner appointment. I think he did, you know, have that idea. But that doesn't play well, does it, when you're trying to sort of create separation. Oh, no one listens to me at Palace. Anyway, he had a good relationship with Palace's former sporting director Duki Friedman. And I think this is where I do have sympathy for him at Palace. If you look at people who have put money into palace in the last four or five years, it's a very short list. It's John texter, he put 80 odd million in. Then he put another 30 odd million in when he had to do this Eagle Football thing to sort of placate the Premier League against Steve Parish. He's put about 110, 115 million in. He basically paid for the, you know, the new training ground. He's very upset about that, that he's not acknowledged for that. And I think I do have sympathy there. So what does this mean? Who knows? Palace have done their thing. They tried to sort of separate it from the wild west of eagle football as things stand. And I do think this needs to be stressed. If he doesn't overturn the relegation, it is a condition of the license he will get from the French authorities that he has to be in Ligue 1. So if OLs relegation stands, there isn't a problem. Ol will not play in Europe next season. Now Texter is unbelievably confident that he's going to overturn this. So then we go back to the palace issue and Woozi's the expert there.
- [46:16]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, I mean, it's also quite a complicated one for Palace. Woozy. Because if you think about it, you know, okay, you've got the Europa League uncertainty. You've also got players being linked to other clubs as well, big players. Mark Gahey, Ebrizia, Eze, Doggy Freeman, sporting directors left his role. I mean, it's quite a turbulent time for that club who should technically be celebrating some of the greatest moments in their history.
- [46:44]
Therapist Host
It is an uncertain time for palace and that's not ideal given that everyone should be celebrating the FA cup win, celebrating getting into Europe for the first time, looking forward to going. So many palace fans dream to go and watch palace in Europe and they should be allowed to have that dream and be able to be excited by that rather than constantly looking over their shoulder and thinking, oh, are we going to get into Europe or not? And again, as you say, there are some players who are going to be in demand this summer. Sean, Philippe, Mateta as well. You know, some of these players may stay at palace if palace get into Europe. If they don't get into Europe, then it raises question marks about whether or not they will stay for financial reasons and for, you know, the sake of their careers. You know, these, these are some very, very good players. Palace done really well to bring these guys in. You know, Mark Gay from Chelsea, obviously in, what was it, 2021 again, John Texter, his money, you know, Eagles money, or as it was then, John, Texas money. Help in Michael Elise Joachim Anderson, who Palace sold for a good profit to Fulham and replace really well, which is the whole idea of Palace's model Texas money. Did actually, maybe I was a bit harsh on Texa earlier on, but Matt Made some fair points, but I do still think that the anger will be the ultimate feeling. But especially if palace do have to sell some of these. I'm not saying they have to sell, but, like, if some of these guys, if there's a decision to make. Marc Gay only has a year left on his contract. He's very much in demand this summer, and so far he hasn't shown any inclination that he's willing to sign a new contract. So it's a question of whether palace decide to take the money that they're going to probably get offered this summer, which is below what they would have obviously had last year, or basically hope that they can change his mind or let him go on a free next summer. Mateta, he's always wanted to play for France, for the men's national team, and as far as he's concerned, the only way to do that is to be playing in Europe, is to be playing in Europa League or Champions League, and that's his dream as well, is to do that. So, again, these are big issues that will only be resolved when palace knows whether or not they're in Europe. And that uncertainty is a big thing, and it's slight for some people. I think it's clouding or overshadowing the success of the season. Not to forget that I haven't even mentioned it was Palace's most successful ever season in terms of points in the Premier League as well. And there's so much to be happy about for Palace Sands. And yet the end of the season comes and a couple days after winning the FA cup and suddenly it's, hang on a minute, are we going to get into Europe? I thought we were in Europe and suddenly there's this concern about whether or not they're going to be playing. And what does that mean? What does that mean for the players? What does that mean for the finances? What's that mean for the ownership? And again, I come back to the reason that Texas sold, and I think it's probably partly to help Leon with their finances, or largely to help Leon with their finances. Sure, there was a small part of him that, at least from Eagles perspective, with the reputation of having a club and being involved in a club and then them not being able to get into Europe because of that, what potentially UEFA could decide is decisive influence. So there's a lot of moving parts here. And ultimately the one thing that Tex has been consistent on with everything is that it's not the fans are the ones who will suffer the most here and that the fans shouldn't be the ones that suffer the most. Unfortunately, that is the reality is that the fans will be the ones who get hit hardest by this, even if financially it's the club and your reputation. It's the club, it is the fans. And obviously Palestine's are so well renowned for their vibrant atmosphere and fervent support. So it would be a real shame for so many reasons if palace don't get into Europe.
- [51:02]
Ayo Akinwale
Yeah, let's, let's wind it up there gents. I really appreciate your time and palace fans. I'm praying you get to taste European football next season. Matt, both of you Woosman, and also Slater and also Tom Williams who joined us earlier. Thank you guys for listening. We'll be back on Wednesday. We'll catch you then.
- [51:19]
Therapist Guest
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast.
- [51:22]
Podcast Network Host
The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrock and Jay Beal.
- [51:25]
Therapist Guest
The executive producer was Aidee Moorhead.
- [51:27]
Podcast Network Host
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on.
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Therapist Guest
Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic.
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Podcast Network Host
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Therapist Guest
The Athletic FC Podcast.
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Therapist Host
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