David Ornstein (1:34)

The Athletic FC.

Ayo Akimolere (1:37)

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. Well, last week David Ornstein said the managerial market is about to explode. Kue Real Madrid sacking Xabi Alonso. So what next for him? And also what next for the club? All right, with us today in the studio, we've got James Orncastle. We've also got David Ornstein. And in Madrid we've also got Dirt Corrigan as well. So Dermot, let's start with Xabi Alonso because shock news man, last night he was relieved of his duties as Real Madrid coach. Did you see this one coming?

Dermot Corrigan (2:12)

He was on the wire for a couple of months. Ever since a bust up with Vinicius in the Clasico last October, there has been murmurings that Florentino Perez wasn't so happy with Alonso. It looked like he had ridden out the storm. They beat Atletico Madrid in the supercopa in Saudi Arabia last week. They lost gnarly to Barcelona in the final. And even some people around the club thought that he'd done enough stay of execution maybe to, to give a little bit more time to try and implement his ideas at the club. But not Florentino Perez. He hasn't been happy with Alonso. Looking back now, he was never really happy with Alonso. He needed to be convinced to hire him last summer. And yeah, the axe has fallen and it's been handed over to Arabello and now to take over.

David Ornstein (2:53)

This is Real Madrid and the coaches don't rule the hierarchy. The owner, well, Florentino Perez essentially at the top of the tree and of course the players do. And I was at a dinner after the Real Madrid Arsenal Champions League game in the knockout stages last season and we were talking about this very subject. How do you replace Carlo Ancelotti? Because he was perfect for that group. And you know, if you hear or speak to people who are privy to these sorts of things, stories about Toni Kroos giving team talks and Dani Carvajal arranging the tactics with Kroos for the Champions League final against Borussia Dortmund at Wembley and that wasn't a one off occurrence. And I think, I don't mean to besmirch a fine man and manager in Carlo Ancelotti, one of my favorite ever, but this vision of him sort of sitting in the dressing room smoking a cigar while his senior leaders kind of run the show that is quintessential Real Madrid. And we were chatting over this dinner, how on earth a coach like Alonso is going to come in and succeed implementing discipline from a tactical and behavioral perspective. This is maybe always going to be the, not necessarily the Galactico show, but a team that is run by individuals and you know, off the cuff quality as opposed to necessarily adhering to plans and structure. And that's exactly what Alonso brings with him when he comes from Bay Leverkusen and his coaching background. It's all methodical. He's one of the leading up and coming coaches in world football and it was all going to be well mapped out from his perspective and he's going to need control over that group. And that's exactly what you don't get at somewhere like Real Madrid. And so you could say that this was an accident waiting to happen. We were already hearing rumblings and they're increasing in volume now that there was some dissatisfaction around his arrival. He wanted to start after the club World cup they told him he had to start before players at Real Madrid were coming to an end, leaving or exhausted, looking forward to their summer holidays. He then gets going. And even though, as you point out, it's an okay position to be in, it's not okay from Real Madrid's perspective to have bad relations between, say, the coach and the star player in Vini Junior. And cracks were clearly emerging, and that might have been from his perspective as well. Maybe he realized that this was something that, you know, was. Was almost like a poison chalice. And although evidently it was a shock to him, and suggestions that he resigned have been sort of dismissed because this was Real Madrid's decision and maybe caught him and his people and a lot around the club off gu. I think what it's showing is that Real Madrid need to take a different approach to what they've done here. Whether you like it or not, they are a unique case and they're run in a certain way. And as far as we can see, for the foreseeable future, it will probably always be the case. And Xabi Alonso will be left to pick up the pieces and remap his next steps on the coaching journey.

Ayo Akimolere (6:03)

Yeah, James, they do things a certain way. It does beckon. The question, what do Real Madrid need a managerial kind of guy? Ancelotti, Zidane, or more tactical coach guy with his own philosophy? Clearly hasn't worked out for the latter. One of those.

James Orncastle (6:19)

I mean, to elaborate on what David was saying about Carlo Ancelotti, I think one of Carlo's skills is that, you know, he would come in, he would have a certain idea of how he wanted the team to play, but he would empower the players. You know, he would take input from them. I think when he first got the job in his first spell, he wanted to play 442. The players had played 433. He went to the players with that, and they decided play 4, 3, 3. And Carlo made it work. And, you know, I mean, Carlo at halftime, whilst, as David says, is smoking a cigar, he will have his own ideas, but then he will go to the likes of Tony Kroos, Dani Carvajal. Say, I think this was the case in the Champions League final against Dortmund at Wembley. What do we need here, boys? And they were like, we think we need an extra man in midfield. And he was like, all right, well, we'll do that then. And so I think Carlo is very humble in working with these superstars, in understanding what they need and making the adjustments he feels to win games, but also to make sure the players feel that they can do their best. Now, I think with this new generation of managers, yeah, they. They come in and we talk about structure and a game model, and I think there isn't that flexibility there that Carlo has and has learned. I mean, Carlo learned this, you know, back in his first job, second job, sorry, at Palmer, where the club said, we're going to sign Roberto Baggio for you. And he was like, roberto Badger doesn't work in my 442. And everyone kind of pilloried him for that. And then he went to Juventus. Who does he have at Juventus? Zinedine Zidane. And he has to. He knows. He's like, I'm going to have to change for Zinedine Zidane. And I think some of these marriages now, your Xabi Alonso's, your Enzo Maresques, blah, blah, blah, they haven't had that learning yet. And look, that learning may come in the next job, or it might be that Xabi Alonso learns from what has just led to his departure by mutual consent from. From Real Madrid. Yeah, but I think Carlo's skill was being humble enough in front of those players to impose his own ideas, but listen to them as well. And then, likewise, there's no better man for understanding what it takes to run a. What would be the equivalent of a Fortune 500 company. You know, he's worked with Russian oligarchs, Italian prime ministers, you know, Florentino Perez, one of the most successful businessmen in Spain. He understands people, Carlo. And I think, you know, a lot of our analysis tends to be, you know, how did Real Madrid play this week? You know, what are they doing to fit this player in? You know, what's the game model? What's the preparation here? And we forget that the biggest part of the job is how he managed people.

Ayo Akimolere (9:19)

Yeah. Was that part of the reason, Derma? How he managed the players? Because there's a. There's a stat flying around. I saw it on CBS today saying, After 34 games, Hansi Flick and Xavi Alonso have the same stats. 24 wins, 4 draws and 6 losses. Isn't there an idea here, actually, just let the man cook. Let's see what happens over a long period of time.

Dermot Corrigan (9:38)

You're never going to get that amount of time at Real Madrid, as the guys have been saying, especially under Florentino Perez, that patience is not one of Florentino Perez's biggest virtues. And Alonso would have known that. And it is definitely true that his personality did not fit very well either with the boardroom or with the dressing room at Madrid. Alonso, he's an intense guy. He comes from the Basque Country. He's a real football guy. Likes nothing better than being out on the pitch talking about tactics with people, working out schemes about how the team are going to win the game at the weekend. And neither Florentino Perez wants to listen to that kind of detail, nor do Vinicius Jr. Or Bellingham or Mbappe want to really listen to that type of detail. Alonso, he ended up, you know, when he came into the job, he was full of, we're going to do a lot of video analysis. I'm going to sit down with the players. He did a lot of it at the Club World cup in the States, where, you know, in the hotel you'd have a video and he'd sit down with, say, it's Bellingham or it's a Trent Alexander Arnold, as he's after coming in, or Mbappe or whatever. And he'd run them through different situations in the game about, you know, when the other opposition are doing this, we'd like you to do this. And he realized himself quite quickly that it wasn't going to work out that well and he had to scale back a bit on this. And I'd say he has some regrets himself about how he allowed himself to be influenced by Vinicius and by Bellingham and the guys in the team who weren't into that type of analysis. So it just hasn't worked out for him at all. I'd agree with what James saying there about Ancelotti, about how he was perfect manager for Madrid in that he was able to manage up to the president of the club. He was able to maintain a good relationship with Florentino Perez and also a really, really good relationship with the guys in the dressing room. And there's kind of a. If you are Anceli, with all your experience, there's kind of a way that you're not. You're not really manipulating the situation, but you're also, you don't need to go around saying, I'm the guy who's in charge here. You can let the players think that they're in control, while at the time you are tweaking the system and suggesting to Toni Cruz that maybe if he, if he plays this ball out to Vinicius, he's going to make sure that Vinicius is going to be in that position for him, thrown onto, and it worked well for the team. Whereas Alonso was more about, okay, going to need you to stand over here and you're going to have to do this and. Yeah, it just hasn't worked out at all for him.

Ayo Akimolere (11:48)

Okay, very quickly, before you go, derma. Just 14 minutes after the announcement of Alonso's departure, we hear that Madrid have confirmed former defender Alvaro Albeloa into the position as head coach. He's obviously been promoted from the reserves. World cup winner, Euro trophy winner, a very well decorated player. Is this a permanent appointment or is it just an interim thing? Do we know?

Dermot Corrigan (12:10)

Yeah, my understanding is that he's not an interim coach in the way that, that United are looking at an interim coach to come in and then in the summer, maybe look at hiring somebody else. He's going to get the job. That's not to say that if things go really badly for him over the next couple of months, that another coach won't come in in the summer. But the idea is to give him a chance to come in. It hasn't been super well thought out. It's not. This is Real Madrid. It's not like they've looked at all the available options, interviewed different people and decided to go with Arboloa. What Florentino likes about Arboloa is that he's 100% a Real Madrid club man. Going back to when he was a player under Jose Mourinho at the Bernabeu along with Alonso at that st. If we remember back to that time, there was so much feuding going on. Mourinho was rowing with different people in the dressing room, including Iker Casillas, and Arbeloa was always 100% behind Mourinho, 100% behind Florentino Perez, went out, spoke in the local media, had a go at local refs, had a go at the authorities whenever anything went against Madrid. You remember back under Benitez's time as coach that Madrid were thrown out of the Copa del Rey for fielding an ineligible player at Cadiz. Arboloa came out, said it was a disgrace. You know, you can't do this to Real Madrid. Madrid. Then after Abalo retired as a player, he was around the club as first as a commentator on Real Madrid tv, as a club ambassador. Around that time, Cristiano Ranaldo got sent off in a Super Copa game for pushing the referee. Arbolo, in his role as a pundit, said that was a mistake. How can the referee send off Cristiano Ranallo? They're obviously biased against us. Isn't it strange how all the decisions in Classico seem to go for Barcelona? All the type of stuff that you hear from, from Florentino Perez today when he talks about Spanish referees, arbolo always been 100% on message. So that's the reason why Florentino likes him. And that's. I'm not expecting that to change when he takes over as first team coach at the club. Whether Arbeloa also has the ability to organize a team to deal with a dressing room, we just don't know. He's done well as in the underage system as coach won some trebles domestically. But you know, as Real Madrid coach, you get the best pick of the young players in Spain. In the Europa Youth League, they were knocked out in the quarterfinals each year. They lost to Azed Alkmaar, who have a really good youth system. But you don't want to be losing to Azer Alkmaar if you're. If you're Real Madrid. So we'll see how it works out. He knows some of the players. He knows Dani Carvajal from when he was player. Carvajal took Arbolo his place in the team back in the day and now Arbeloa is his coach. So we'll see how that works out, but we don't really know how it's going to go going forward. Sometimes Real Madrid appoint the Castilla coach in insinity and Sudan and a couple of months later they're celebrating win the Champions League. Sometimes it's Santi Solari and you know, he comes in, tries to sort out a dressing room of players who aren't pulling their weight as the president sees it. And he himself has gone a couple of months later. So we're going to have to see how it works out. But yeah, Arbalo is going to talk today. Maybe we'll get more details then on. I would imagine he won't talk too much about project. I imagine he won't be showing Vinicius too many videos ahead of the Copa del Rey game. They have tomorrow night about how to do it. But he will be in the dressing room saying, we're Madrid, we need to fight, we need to battle. Everybody's against us. He'll circle the wagons, he'll get people behind him.

Ayo Akimolere (15:21)

All right, Dermot, really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us. Next we'll talk Xabby Alonso's future and also the impact of his exit on the coaching market.

Podcast Host/Announcer (15:34)

This is the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akumulere.

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Ayo Akimolere (17:43)

Yeah, let's talk about what kind of impact Xabi Alonso leaving Real Madrid could have potentially on the Premier League. David I mean, there'll be many people looking at Liverpool, for instance, asking could Xabi Alonso be the future coach of Liverpool Football Club?

David Ornstein (17:58)

I think it's really disrespectful to think that Arne Slot's on his way out of Liverpool because nobody has any evidence to suggest that they're on an unbeaten run at the moment. He won the league last season. He's only a year and a half into his Liverpool reign and ultimately they chose him unanimously back in that, what was it, springtime of 2024? And yes, Xabi Alonso appeared to be the favorite in many people's eyes and he ticked loads of boxes. Of course, it was something that was very popular as a prospect with the Liverpool fan base largely, but it never seemed realistic to the hierarchy and, you know, it's proved to be a successful appointment so far. Of course, there's been a lot of scrutiny in that fan base about Slot's style of football this season and the results. And we'll have to wait and see how this next six months unfolds. There's no doubt there's going to be heavy speculation linking him to Liverpool and maybe others, I don't know, Manchester City, various jobs in world football because he's clearly one of the foremost coaches, very highly rated as a person and as a professional. But we just don't know what's going to happen. And you know, we talked about that explosion, to use my words last week. We've already seen that at the start of this year. So Chelsea have made a change, Manchester United have made a change, Now Real Madrid have made a change. There's huge, certainly external pressure on Thomas Frank. Tottenham Hotspur don't know if that correlates to internal pressure. There has been external pressure on Arna Slot, I don't know of it correlating to internal. And there will be many other scenarios that rise to the boil when we get to the summer because there are the contracts of say, a Silver Iriola Glasner expiring the World cup could see the end of Thomas Tuchel, Carlo Ancelotti, Nagelsman, Julian Nagelsman, Maurizio Pochettino and others. So there's going to be potentially more maneuvering and scrutiny over this than we've seen in the managerial market for some time, maybe ever. And suddenly you have somebody who is right at the very top bracket becoming available. And a lot of people sort of myself included, explaining on this very podcast why Manchester United want to wait until the summer because they'll have more options, they'll have time to a thorough and diligent in their mind process. But I'd be intrigued to see how potential suitors react to somebody like Xabi Alonso becoming available now. Do you throw your summer plans out the window and go for him sooner? And I know some people outside of Manchester United who are baying for them to just rip up the interim plan. We speak at the time that Carrick is just about to get his feet under the table as interim and go and get him now. There are more factors involved in that. I suspect Xabi Alonso with His family being in Madrid, kids at school may need to stay there for a bit. He might want to take some time out. You don't know. All we do know is it's going to be a fascinating, frenzied six months ahead. And do I expect the links to Liverpool externally to go away? No, it's natural. He's a legend of the club. He was the coach that many of their fans wanted. He appears to tick a lot of boxes, but they've got an impressive coach in charge of them already and if the first season's anything to go by, he's got a lot at his disposal to be successful. Yeah, it's not been an ideal campaign. I'm not expecting them to recruit in. In January, significantly. And we'll come on to talk about that. No doubt there's a lot to address in the summer and you just never know in football. But I don't want that to be me. Linking Alonso to Liverpool because slot is being backed wholeheartedly by the club for now. But I think everybody at that top bracket of world football where there's any uncertainty over their manager or coaching position while Alonso is still on the market, there's going to be natural conversation around it.

Ayo Akimolere (22:06)

Okay, Very quickly, James, before we move on to Manchester United, we've seen what Xabi Alonso's done at Leverkusen unbeaten season. Fantastic. Can something like this, it not working out at Real Madrid, damage a coach's reputation, for instance, like Xabi Alonso, just because it didn't work out at a massive club?

James Orncastle (22:24)

I think Real Madrid is one of those clubs a little bit like Chelsea was. Chelsea still is, but there was a time with Abramovich at the helm where you just felt that it didn't necessarily damage someone going to Chelsea getting fired. You know, it was just seen as parents for the course. All kind of political careers end in failure. All coaching careers kind of end at Chelsea very quickly, regardless of whether you're successful or not. So I think still people will judge him on his work at Leverkusen. That said, he will have to show learning from this Real Madrid experience, particularly when it comes to learning how to manage people manage those superstars. I mean, those kind of two incidents where you see Vinicius in the Classico sort of dissenting again in the super cup earlier this week, Mbappe basically saying, let's all go into the dressing room. Chabulons is saying, no, let's go over to the fans. He will need to show that he's able to manage those relationships because the jobs that we're linking him with or he's being linked with. There are star players in those Leverkuseniza. Anybody who's been to Leverkusen knows it's a satellite city on the edge of Cologne. It's a very small place without a lot of superstars. And you can come in with the authority there that his playing career commands, his aura. And people will look at him and think, I can learn from this guy. Whereas I think at Real Madrid, it's like you look at the issues with Vinicius Junior. Let's not forget that two years ago, less than two years ago, you know, Real Madrid refused to go to the Ballon d' or ceremony because Finish didn't win it. You know, I think as much as winning the Champions League is big for Real Madrid, having players who win the Ballon d' or matters to them as well. So all clubs are different. Managers have to adapt accordingly to the context in which they find themselves in.

Ayo Akimolere (24:26)

Well, all clubs are different. But a club that's also keeping us entertained and in the news is Manchester United, Michael Carrick, hotly tipped to sort of take this interim position, David, over Olena Solskjaer. What. What do we know about that deal?

David Ornstein (24:40)

So far, the deal's agreed and Manchester United and Carrick, his people are working through the contracts to get it all finalized. Small details, and then he'll be announced with coaching staff that is understood to include Steve Holland, G. Southgate's longtime assistant, which is an interesting move. And then Jonathan Woodgate, who he's known previously from the Northeast, Middlesbrough, and I think Travis Binion, who's already there. Darren Fletcher dropping back down into the under 18s role, which would have been his decision, I'm sure, and fair enough on that front. So Manchester United clearly have decided to go with somebody that did a good job, and Middlesbrough did a good job in the short period after Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was sacked as permanent manager. And Manchester United has the United connection. There wasn't as much noise around him as there was Solskjaer. Of course, Solskjaer had a lot of support publicly given. He had done it before and done it well before. It ended not so well. At the end of his permanent gig. He was ready and available and. And visibly in the area where he lives, because we saw so much of him. And we need to understand more in the coming days what happened. Why didn't they go for him? Was there any particular reason or was it just purely that they ended up favoring Carrick? There was A lot of suggestion that they may be working together, which they did last time round, but I don't think United ever truly had that intention because Carrick in the interim period has grown to be a number one in his own right. So bringing two number ones together clearly wasn't to their liking. Ruud Van Nistelrooy was more on the outside and Carrick will, as far as we know, lead training when the squad are back in on Wednesday ahead of the Manchester Derby on Saturday. All United have to play for now is the. The top four qualification. No cup competitions, no Europe. What it does give them is a period just to try and galvanize, get smiles back on faces. Remember what it means to play for Manchester United. You know, this relatively new group, if you're looking at the three across the attack, most notably to actually gel over these six months or fewer, even now, ahead of a permanent appointment. And I'm sure there'll be more recruitment. There'll be some departures over the summer, too. I do expect it to be a quiet transfer window, which. Which we discussed last week. And yeah, I mean, talk about never a dull moment. Manchester United in. In the post Ferguson era especially, has just been, to those of us that work in this world, the gift that keeps on giving. I don't think Manchester United supporters will see it that way, but it's a. It's an absolutely captivating situation there and. And they'll hope that this helps edge them in the right direction, as they've hoped.

Ayo Akimolere (27:26)

Yeah.

David Ornstein (27:27)

Previous appointments.

Ayo Akimolere (27:28)

Yeah. Do you know what, James? You wrote about something that I've been thinking about for. So glad you've you vocalized it. You described Manchester United as being prisoners of the past. Now, by that, what we've seen over time is this return back to heritage, right. Old players who play for the club, who know what it means to win for Manchester United. But I often wonder how tricky that is, because in an era those players were playing the setup of the Premier League, the setup of European football was so different. And you're bringing those guys into a modern game, but also under a coach who, some might say those tactics and the way he played back then probably aren't so relevant now.

James Orncastle (28:07)

Yeah, I think. I mean, there's always so much talk about Man United's identity, and that is in part because so many of the players from that era are now pundits on, you know, broadcasters and on their own podcasts. So you have this constant swirl of, you know, as David said, what it means to be Man United 4, 42 attack, attack, attack. Never give up. And I think a lot of that identity, rather than those principles was just bound up in that manager. We keep seeing how, even if it is just on a caretaker interim basis, United's willingness to go back to players from that era, as we've seen with Xabio Alonso at Real Madrid. Xabi Alonso played for Real Madrid, didn't make him a manager of Real Madrid. And Xabi Alonso is in many respects, and I say this with all due respect for the work that Carrick's done Middlesbrough for Ole Gunnar, Solskjaer, Molder and previously at Man United, it's a very different job. And you know, I, I think going forward and it's, it's, it's. I think it's really hard because if you look at their permanent appointments that United have made, David Moyes kind of chip off the old block. Club builder Scott been at a club for a long time, like Ferguson binned very quickly. Louis Van Gaal, someone who had a very particular style, very good at developing young players. Everyone talks about United's academy always having youth products in the squad. He was gone even though he won an FA Cup. Mourinho, one of the most influential and most successful managers in Premier League history, who before he won the Conference League at Roma, said his most important achievement was taking United to second. So Erik Ten Hag again, someone who is like Ruben Amarim, seen as the coming force in European football. What's interesting to me is David will remember this, but the previous executive group at Manchester United, when they hired 10 HAG, they had like Liverpool, what, two or three months to do their due diligence. Liverpool did that on Arnie Slot. United did it on Ten Hag. Ten Hag did win something at United, the FA cup, which ultimately kept him in the job. But they've tried all sorts, serial winners, up and comers and I think it's really challenging. Whenever a result goes bad, inevitably there's someone in a Sky studio or on a podcast saying this is not the United way. And I think that United way, whilst you can still adhere to some of the values that United have had, particularly in the Ferguson era, you need to forge a new path. You need to change in order to stay the same. Stay the same as per their history and tradition as being the most successful club in English football domestically.

Ayo Akimolere (31:00)

Yeah. Do you know what's interesting? Because James also caveats a lot of his argument with the fact that even clubs in Italy have had this problem as well. And I thought was really interesting in Terms of what is the United way, what is anyone's way in modern football, David? You know, some might, I'm looking, I'm sitting there as a fan sometimes watching Arsenal thinking, I want Arsene Wenger football. But the League's changed, structures of football have changed.

James Orncastle (31:25)

Yeah, but I mean, it's interesting you bring up Arsenal because, you know, when I was sort of a child, it was 1 nil to the Arsenal.

Ayo Akimolere (31:34)

Yeah. George Graham.

James Orncastle (31:35)

George Graham. And then Wenger came in and showed that you can change the identity of a football club. And for the period of Wenger's time in charge, we all began to associate Arsenal with free flowing, attacking football that was equivalent to Barcelona, not what we'd seen prior to him. So I think Arsenal are really interesting because they do show that you can, as much as a club has its DNA and identity, you can change, you can implement another style and another way of doing things and be successful. Whereas United seem to not keep going back to what they thought won them things before, but impose that on the new managers that they appoint, who, as I've mentioned, aside from the interim, are all different.

Ayo Akimolere (32:20)

But also it's having the patience though. You know, you got the fan base saying one thing, you've got pundits saying something else. I mean, I keep using that word, let them cook. But you really have to let someone sort of bed in and get their ideas across because often as we see people are inheriting players that they haven't brought into the club tactically, they're thinking differently. So you've also got to let that sort of flourish before you actually make that cut. But also, when's the right time? That's another question.

David Ornstein (32:45)

No one is let to cook anymore. They just get cooked. Here all week, available for birthdays requests. It's a really salient point. And I remember Thomas Tuchel, when he was free from Borussia Dortmund, really wanted a project and he really wanted to come to the Premier League. And the project that he wanted was Arsenal. Because what he saw of the Wenger era was that Arsenal were a club that allowed a manager or coach to have time to really build. And when he looked around the Premier League, he didn't identify any others at that moment that were allowing the same thing or where vacancies may be arising. Arsenal at that time didn't want to let coaches know that they were looking for a replacement for Wenger. And so Thomas Tuchel took the PSG job and a few weeks later Wenger was announced to be leaving Arsenal. So that ship sailed. He eventually went to Chelsea, which was even worse than PSG at that moment for hiring and firing, although he was successful. And this is such a wish of these coaches and managers, and it's ever less common. But James is absolutely right, you know, Arsenal have adapted to a new way of playing under Arteta that they'll hope will now bring them success. Some fans won't be happy with that because they're such purists, but ultimately, if silverware is lifted, they'll be delighted. Let's not forget that. That the end of Wenger's reign was mired in acrimony and their fans were not happy. They weren't playing the style of football that Wenger had become known for. And so what we see here is the need, and this is far easier said than done, for very clear thinking and strategy, which should have already been done at Manchester United in the first summer of the new regime. But of course, there was the tumult of Dan Ashworth coming in, and maybe he would have been the person behind that and then going. So I know there's been a lot of scrutiny on Jason Wilcox, Omar Berarda, Christopher Vell, Jim Ratcliffe now, but they need to sit down and define their style of play in a way that Arsenal did under Arteta. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same in terms of. Arteta is incredibly powerful there, and we don't know if the next person at Manchester United will be to that extent, but they are very collaborative there, whether it was Edu as sporting director and now it's Andrea Berta supported by the Kroenkeys. Even though there will be disagreements behind the scenes, by and large, they're on the same page, pushing in the same direction, and everyone kind of knows what the plan is, and it's just about trying to implement it. So you then recruit to that style, which you can contest over whether Manchester United recruited for Amarim, having just recruited for 10 HAG, but then they push back against Amaran's wishes in the case of the goalkeeper with Martinez and Lammons, and it becomes disjointed. They need to, at some point, almost like, wipe the slate and. And make those decisions up front and then, yeah, give it proper time and patience behind a coach, even if it may get worse before it gets better. And that's why I say easier said than done, because there's a pressure of trying to deliver at the same time. There was a time at Arsenal where many of the fans were calling for Arteta's head when they were near the relegation zone, but nobody in the hierarchy was.

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Ayo Akimolere (36:59)

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Podcast Host/Announcer (38:05)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Ayo Akimolere (38:10)

Let's quickly move on. Quick fire on transfers right now and actually a story you broke, David, on Monday night, a Spurs move for Atletico Madrid's Conor Gallagher. I heard Villa were interested. Are spurs in for him now?

David Ornstein (38:25)

Villa were very interested. They have been in the past and they were again on this occasion they were exploring the conditions of a deal, I think initially maybe on loan. Then they pivoted to it being permanent or loan with obligation because Atletico would only let him go on a permanent basis. They hadn't reached formal agreements, club to club or with the player, but he had indicated that he was keen on on a move to Villa, so that appeared to be the direction of travel. But then, yes, Tottenham came in quite late, it seems, and moved very quickly and decisively to put a permanent transfer fee down of 40 million euros. And we don't know the ins and outs yet of the salary offer and all of the related financials, but that was an offer that was accepted by Atletico and the player agreed to return to London with Tottenham, who also, like Villa, had had pursued Gallagher in the past. So it's not an entirely fresh admiration. And so at the time of recording this, Conor Gallagher is either flying over to London or in London to undergo his medical and finalize the terms of five and a Half year contract, which is especially important for Tottenham because they've lost Rodrigo Bentancour to an injury for a few months and I think Palina is on loan. So they didn't plan really for this position. To my knowledge, the focus of this January window was a left sided attacker, like a wide left. They'd looked at Savino last summer, Semeno this window, and maybe it still is, depending on the resources, but this became an opportunity that they felt they had to move on and they did hijack Aston Villa. But Aston Villa have to take a disciplined approach under the PSR regulations and I'm sure there's plenty more fish in the sea. They're doing well this season and maybe they'll go for somebody else or maybe they'll stick with what they got.

Ayo Akimolere (40:18)

Yeah, plenty more fish in the sea, namely potentially for Villa. Tammy Abraham from Roma. James, I'd love to talk to you about that. Obviously with the Italian connection, what have you made of his time at Roma?

James Orncastle (40:30)

Well, I mean, look, Tammy had a excellent first season, particularly when you compare it with the travails of Evan Ferguson at the moment. You know, I think a lot of people thought Ferguson would hit the ground running and Italy struggled. Tammy scored 27 goals, I think in all competitions. And, you know, I think when Italian clubs look to sign players from the Premier League, particularly English players from the Premier League, there is a strategy behind it and that strategy is, okay, we'll pay a premium for that player now, but in the belief that if that player does well, we'll be able to spin that player back to the Premier League league for a big profit. And certainly after year one, they didn't want to move Tammy on because he'd become a fan favorite in year two. Didn't perform like he did in year one, but they reached the Europa League final. And then again there was Premier League interest in taking him back. And it was just unfortunate that within a week of that Europa League final, I think they played against Spezia and he had a very, very bad knee injury. And I remember Roma's hierarchy at the time looking that. It's like if they won the Europa League final on penalties against Sevilla, they would have qualified for Champions League with all the revenue that brings. If they'd sold Tammy Abraham after that Europa League, yeah, they would have made a lot of money from that as well, potentially. And instead they lost the Europa League final and a week later Tammy got injured. Tammy has been on loan at Beiktas, but that's alone with an obligation so effectively He's a Beiktas player.

David Ornstein (42:04)

Okay.

James Orncastle (42:05)

But Tammy on his day is, you know, a very, I would say like he's a diet Alexander Isaac, but you know, he's a proven finisher who I think a lot of people see had a lot of potential and certainly in terms of English exports to the Dol Mio, as my friends like to call Serie A, he was a very, very good export there.

David Ornstein (42:29)

Just to wrap up on the deal quickly, if there is to be one, Villa would have or any other club would have to deal with Beiktas. And then Tammy Abraham earns really well in Turkey, which is another factor in all of this. So the conversations I think are preliminary stage. If Marlon leaves Villa or asks to, then this may develop. I think a situation around Tammy Abraham will develop. There are other clubs interested in the Premier League. They're much lower down though, so I think Villa would be the more plausible one. Especially because there's long term links between the two of them. He was there on loan and Unai Emery really likes him and it's said to be mutual but there's no guarantee this happens.

Ayo Akimolere (43:13)

Okay, brilliant, let's wrap this up. A question actually from YouTube to finish, David. Given Conor Bradley is likely to be out for the rest of the season with a knee injury, will Liverpool be pushed into the market in January? We've seen Szobotszlai play in that position from time to time.

David Ornstein (43:28)

Yeah, you've seen Szobozlai, you've seen Joe Gomez, you could use Curtis Jones and Jeremy Fringpong. So from Liverpool's perspective, there will be no recruitment for that position in January because the way they operate is not to make permanent signings for such a short period of time. And why I say a short period of time is because Bradley will be back for them all being well at the start of next season, at the start of pre season. He hasn't been ruled out of the World cup if Northern Ireland were to qualify. So they have possibilities there. Liverpool, the feeling I get is that they're keeping their powder dry in the market for the summer and at that point the focus will be a central defender or the central defensive position because you've got Ibrahima Konate, his contract is expiring on June 30. There's no breakthrough in talks over a new contract. You've got Virgil Van Dijk and Joe Gomez who will then be entering the final 12 months of their existing deals. Of course, Leone coming back all being well from his serious injury, but I would expect recruitment in that department. That's why they looked at Mark Gahi last summer. It's why they would be in the mix for Mark Gahey. If he doesn't leave Crystal palace in January, then we also need to pay attention with Liverpool to the attacking position that Mo Salah occupies. We believe that he will be staying when he gets back from afcon and that means for the rest of this season despite the recent uncertainty and the sort of flare up. But let's see how that relationship evolves. If all goes to plan and things are good, he's then got a contract until 2027. He might stay and as far as we know, he wants to stay at Liverpool. He loves the club. However, if it doesn't go so well, maybe there is a conversation to be had about a mutual parting of the ways next summer and then my goodness, there's a big hole to fill. So that's one to watch as we go forward towards the summer market.

James Orncastle (45:24)

Okay, he can replace Conor Bradley as.

David Ornstein (45:29)

Man of many talents.

Ayo Akimolere (45:30)

Before I forget, Federico Callza at Liverpool, I just wanted something from you on this because I'm very disappointed he hasn't shone or been given the game time. What does the future look like for a player like that who's clearly very talented but not really working for the coach at Liverpool?

James Orncastle (45:49)

Yeah, it's a complicated one with Federico. I mean, there was speculation about his future last summer, particularly as we all know going into a World cup year. He made such an impact off the bench in Liverpool's first game against Bournemouth. He is a fan favorite, I think, you know, he was. Well, not privately. He's spoken about this. A little bit embarrassed that he was known more for a song at Liverpool than for his performances. There is always going to be interest in Federico back home in Italy. And you know, from what we understand, I think it was in the deal sheet today. Juventus is interested in bringing him back, but I think that's, that's complicated because, you know, as David's just mentioned, Mo Salah for now is still at afcon. They've got injuries across the forward line, particularly with Isaac. Luis Diaz is a Bayern Munich player and has been for the last seven months. And so, yeah, Liverpool very reluctant to let him go and certainly Federico in the summer there were opportunities to go back to Italy then which he could have encouraged and he wanted to stay and fight for his place at Liverpool.

Ayo Akimolere (47:00)

Let's leave it there, gents. Appreciate your time as always and all our guests today, including Dermot as well. So thanks so much for joining us.

David Ornstein (47:07)

We didn't even get on to the Winter Olympics, which we chatted. That was better than the entire football podcast. But that can be a special at some point in the future. I don't know where he came from.

Ayo Akimolere (47:17)

I don't know where that came from.

James Orncastle (47:18)

Edit.

Ayo Akimolere (47:18)

Anyway, thanks for joining us. We'll catch you soon. Cheers.

Podcast Host/Announcer (47:24)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre, and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production.

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