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- [00:00]
Shopify Host
Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, who know very well that when you're starting something new, it seems like that to do list can just keep on growing. When we started this very podcast, we had to figure out all on our own how to get the show on the air, how to set topics, do the research, find sponsors, learn how to grow the audience. And that was all without even launching an online store or selling any merchandise. So finding the right tool to help simplify that to do list and streamline things and get things done can be a game changer for millions of businesses. Businesses that game changing tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started with hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. It is packed with helpful AI tools to help with content creation that is going to help you write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you, even if you don't. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TSS go to shopify.com TSS one more time, shopify.com TSS.
- [01:39]
1-800-Flowers Host
This Mother's Day show the moms in your life just how much they mean to you with a stunning bouquet from 1-800-flowers.com for almost 50 years, 1-800-flowers has set the standard for high quality bouquets. Right now, order early from 1-800-FLOWERS and save up to 40% on gorgeous bouquets and one of a kind arrangements guaranteed to make her day. Save up to 40% today at 1800-flowers.com acastra that's 1-800-flowers.com acast. The official florist of Mother's Day.
- [02:11]
Acast Host
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [02:18]
Paige Desorbo
Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the Squad. Giggly Squad started on Summerhouse when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed. So we decided to start this podcast to. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games. And guests listen to Giggly Squad on ACAST or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:50]
Acast Host
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [03:02]
Ayo Akinwalere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [03:09]
Adam Crafton
Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. Well, today, Adam Crafton has exclusively revealed that Sir Alex Ferguson's Manchester United ambassadorial contract has been ended by the club. So why have INEOS taken this decision? And with Erik Ten Hag back at work after the international break, does this mean that the owners have also taken a decision on the manager? So joining me today is the Athletics, Adam Crafton, our Manchester United correspondent, Laurie Whitwell and Phil Hay as well. Right, Adam, you broke the story today of the decision to enter Alex Ferguson's ambassadorial contract at Manchester United.
- [03:54]
Laurie Whitwell
Right.
- [03:54]
Adam Crafton
Tell us why this has happened.
- [03:57]
Ayo Akinwalere
Well, I think this has happened in the context of everything that's going on at Man United at the moment. So you've got all these cost cutting measures. You know, you're looking at tens of millions, I think in the latest set of accounts, they're talking around 40 to 50 million over a set period of time that they're looking to bring in. And we've seen, you know, some pretty, if you're talking in very kind of old school language, kind of cuts on the, on the shop floor, right, People losing their jobs in kind of all different sections of the club. And I think INEOS have zoned in wherever possible on where they can be, you know, the words they would use are words like cost rationalization and efficiencies and all those kind of corporate cutting words. And one area that they've zoned in on is, you know, the amount of money that Manchester United continue to pay Sir Alex Ferguson in his role as a global ambassador to the club. It was over £2 million for sure, at least. And that's been seen as, as, as, as something that can be cut. But obviously it's, you know, if, if you strip it down to a sentence, it's almost, you know, United have chops, Fergie. Right. So that's not what anyone ever expects to hear. So that's what makes it a pretty kind of extraordinary story in some ways. But I think in the context of all the cuts that are being made within the club, it probably starts to make a bit More sense, Laurie, what.
- [05:21]
Adam Crafton
Is this global ambassadorial role? What would it have entailed for Sir Alex Ferguson? I mean, many fans would have seen him turn up to many games and pop up with a comment from time to time. But what did that actually mean for his job?
- [05:34]
Laurie Whitwell
I think it basically meant that he would be available for sponsorship launches and commercial activities. And I don't think it was much of a commitment. I mean, Adam might know the exact number of days, but it wasn't that he was there, you know, I don't know, 38 hours a week. However, you know, you might anticipate a normal job to be done or a nine to five. Exactly that, yeah. He's not logging off, you know, when it's end of the day. But I think what it did mean, it was that he was an association of Manchester United, so they could kind of tap into his heritage, his prestige. You know, he obviously was such a huge part of building Manchester United into the brand that they are now. So, you know, sort of. I suppose you could make an argument that he deserves some of that, the commercial pull that they have, because he was such an integral part to it. But in terms of going to the games, that was something that he just enjoyed doing, I think. You know, he didn't go to every single game, but he was there at the most important moments. And he certainly had an office at Old Trafford, still has an office at Old Trafford where he can entertain people and he would, you know, talk to people after games and share his thoughts and opinions and. And he was also, you know, in part under Richard Arnold, you know, the former chief executive, he tried to bring Ferguson back into the fold a little bit more, I think, under Ed Woodward, when he was sort of running the club, there was a bit of distance there. And so, for example, Arnold would have these kind of lunches where with other sort of former players such as Brian Robson, Dennis Irwin, I think the Manja Vidic was even at one of them where they would talk about signings and things like that and have a good communication between the club and, you know, these kind of people that have been sort of integral to shaping it into what it is today. And that's. I don't think that is a particularly paid position. It's just something that they kind of wanted to have happen and he was happy to engage in. So, yeah, in terms of the actual specifics of what the ambassadorial contract looked like, I'm not entirely sure. But I think that certainly this means that, you know, those moments where he will be asked to, you know, appear, I guess, maybe in the Wrexham advert that they did with Ryan Reynolds and where he was kind of, you know, pretending that he couldn't hear the zoom. There was other stuff that he'd done recently which kind of taps into the sponsorship side of things, and I guess now that will just be cut.
- [07:36]
Phil Hay
I read Adam's piece earlier today and it was saying that the kind of guidance was that this had been a sort of amicable decision, very much Ineos decision, but Ferguson had taken it with. With good grace. I wonder what the consequences are going to be when it comes to how much Ferguson is now going to be seen around the club. Are we going to notice the difference of him not being at games? Is he. Is he genuinely going to take this in a way where they can just carry on with healthy relationship as before? And I also just wondered whether this goes in any way beyond money. You know, was there any part of this to do with the amount that Ferguson is around the club, the amount that he is a presence, given his history and his standing at Manchester United? You know, given that there's no bigger figure at Manchester United, particularly since the death of Bobby Charlton last year, than him?
- [08:21]
Ayo Akinwalere
I think if. If you go back to when Ineos first came in, so the first game after Ratcliffe got his minority stake that Man United played Tottenham, I think, or that was the first game Ratcliffe attended. Man United played Tottenham and Ratcliffe sat next to Ferguson in the director's box that day. And that looked to me like a bit of almost like product placement. Right. You know, if you're going to place yourself next to anyone in that stadium, you know, to make sure the pictures look good and that you're tapping into the history and the clout of the club, you're going to sit next to Ferguson. So. And Ratcliffe at the time, I remember him saying when he did, he kind of did an interview about a month later where he was talking about going to see Ferguson, how the meeting was meant to last an hour, but instead it lasted three or four hours, that Sir Alex still had real value and contributions to give to the club, that he's the greatest manager of all time. But I think it's become very clear, you know, since Ineos have got their feet under the table, that, you know, they are building what they would consider to be a more modern football structure with, you know, your CEO and your technical director and your sporting director and all of those kind of jobs, and there isn't really a natural place in for Sir Alex Ferguson kind of figure in a formal way. So I don't think there's been a fallout per se, but I think Ineos have come into Manchester United and just looked at it as if it is one of their other companies that they are trying to, in their words, right size and make the spreadsheet look way more sensible. I think Ratcliffe came in and he was looking at a club that was getting, you know, 600, £700 million worth of revenue, but losing money and couldn't really get his head around how that kept happening at Manchester United. Now, for those of us who have watched them for the last few years, the reason that keeps happening is because they buy bad players, they don't sell very well. Right. And they don't get their coaching hires right. So that's why it keeps happening. But. But the way that Ineos are going around these cuts isn't just on the player trading side, it's also on all different aspects of the club in terms of how amicable was it really, in terms of this decision? Well, both sides, you know, have been suggesting to me, you know, over the past 24 hours that this was an amicable separation. However, this has not come, you know, this hasn't been Ferguson sitting down with Ratcliffe over lunch and saying, you know what? I think it's time for me to step down. I don't think I want that couple of million quid every year for the next few years. I'm ready to step away. No, it was a cut and it was presented to Ferguson. I think Ferguson, it was kind of agreed, rather than being an immediate cut, it would be at the end of the season. So it gets paid up until the end of the season. That's probably more than many of the people who have lost their jobs, by the way, would have got. So it's an arrangement that they've come to. I don't think Ferguson is enthusiastic about it, but at the same time, he does have a lot of other stuff going on with his horse racing. He's done films with his son Jason over the last few years. There was one that went onto Amazon Prime. And I also wonder whether we will see Ferguson, who, you know, if you speak to anyone who knows him, he is keenly aware of his own value and I wouldn't be surprised to see him embark on a few projects, you know, with his family and things like that, whether it's more films or more documentaries or different initiatives which are just far less tied to Manchester United. Right. And other things that Manchester United would have wanted to do so. We reported earlier in the year that you, United were talking to Disney about a possible documentary about the Ferguson era that would have included Ferguson. You know, I think suffice to say that is now very, very unlikely to happen. But could that be something where Disney were to go direct to Ferguson and try and do something? So those are the kind of conversations that become more open and that's where it starts to get into the question of. I think on the one hand you'll hear people say, well, why was this guy Even earning 2 million a year, you know, once he's retired and things like that. But there is a kind of, as Laurie says, this kind of value driver just by being associated with him.
- [12:36]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, Laurie, that brings us nicely to I guess what the fans outlook has been to this. You know, Sir Alex Ferguson's probably one of the last bastions of the glory days or modern glory days of Manchester United, really, and the iconography of it and the imagery of it and him, not him leaving the club right now, I'm sure there must be mixed reactions to that in general, but also the mountain debts that Manchester United also do have as well.
- [13:01]
Laurie Whitwell
Yeah, it's been interesting seeing the feedback to this story, obviously on the athletic comments and then on social media as well. It's a brilliant story, by the way. I mean, it's obviously caught the attention of a lot of people, so I think that should be acknowledged. And on the one hand it's like, wow, they're getting rid of Sir Alex Ferguson. That's basically it, really. And a lot of people probably would have been thinking it was a different United manager they had in the crosshairs, but ultimately it's, you know, that's one of the comments that I've seen sort of online. You know, I didn't think Ferguson would go before 10 hag.
- [13:30]
Ayo Akinwalere
I did suggest jokingly that we could just do a headline, say, Man United Fire Manager.
- [13:37]
Laurie Whitwell
The Ultimate Clickbait headline.
- [13:39]
Ayo Akinwalere
That would have been the ultimate clickbait, but I don't think that would have been very sensible.
- [13:44]
Laurie Whitwell
But it's been a mixed reaction. Right. I don't know if you've seen this guys, but like, it feels like, and maybe this is a split between certain generations possibly in that, you know, you've got people that remember what memories he gave to them and then others that are kind of thinking, well, it's a new, you know, it's new world. Ineos are trying to shake things up. I certainly think that having sort of £2 million a year. People will probably be surprised at that. It's quite a lot of money. Right. By the same token, as we sort of said, the amount of millions that United generate in commercial revenue for Ferguson is a large part of. You could argue, I think some people would look at it and go, well, he has. The Glazers have kind of given him that contract at the start of when he stepped down. And that means that does he be as open as he can be against the Glazers? Certainly people have kind of criticized him for that in the past and when the takeover was happening, I think certain fan groups wanted him to speak more openly about how the takeover just should never have happened. So there's that element to it all as well. And yeah, I think that it certainly. I think it certainly shows from Aeneas's point of view that they're. They're willing to tackle even the hardest of issues and from the top. So I guess that maybe colors your perception of all the other people that have lost their jobs. And yeah, so they're saying, well, we've done it with Solix Ferguson. So, you know, the people lower down the food chain, you know, you kind of have to accept it.
- [15:03]
Phil Hay
I can imagine this being painted in. In some quarters as not necessarily moving on from the Ferguson era, but almost, you know, drawing a line in the sand. The problem is that clubs don't spiritually don't ever move on from an era like Ferguson's. Not really, you know, and they shouldn't, because it's such a major part of the history that it's the famous story from Leeds United in the 1980s of Howard Wilkinson removing the. The photos of the Don Reeve era from the corridors at Ellen Road because the scale of the Rivi success, the shadow that it was kind of placing over the existing squad who were in Division 2 at the time, wasn't helping. And to a degree it worked because Leeds were promoted and then went on to win the first division title in 92. But the RIVI era never went away. And one of the biggest figures around Leeds still is Eddie Gray, who was one of Revi's best players and similar sort of thing at Manchester United. I mentioned Bobby Charlton. I think stuff since Charlton's death, you know, Ferguson really is, you know, the Royals Royal at Old Trafford. Royalty doesn't come bigger than him at that particular club. I guess this comes down to value. And I can't help feeling that Ferguson must still have been an asset to United in a commercial sense. You know, whether it's pressing the flesh or Being around the events that Adam was mentioning, you know, corporate dues, commercial occasions where we're just having him in the room or having him on hand is of some value to the club, I guess the question becomes whether or not he was worth what they were paying him. But I think the issue as far as optics are concerned for Ineos is that if it doesn't go well at United over the next year, 18 months, two years or whatever else, this is the sort of thing that will be put on the list of grievances against them. You know, if they find there is a point where the fans are against them, where they're not winning the crowd or they're losing the crowd, then this is the sort of thing that people look back at and see, amongst other things that were not happy about, you did this. Do you think, Adam, that any part of this is the fact that they have made so many other cuts and, you know, I think he was talking 200 plus redundancies that were. That were proposed. And in light of that, it's not a particularly good look to have somebody on the payroll in an ambassadorial role that is earning seven figures, maybe.
- [17:11]
Ayo Akinwalere
But I can't imagine the people walking around the offices at Old Trafford sort of begrudging Sir Alex Ferguson a job and a payday. I might be wrong, but it's interesting because there's a couple of people I spoke to who know the Glazer family pretty well and I was asking them about, why do you think the Glazers kind of sanctioned this for so long? Because, yeah, I think one of the things that's starting to emerge about the Glazers, you know, as much as the kind of the fans, you know, will say that they've not put in their own money and all of that is entirely justified in the debt and all of that kind of thing. They do seem to have been pretty generous with their own efforts. Employees, right. Quite often, you know, whether that's about. Around bonus schemes or just the amount of jobs that there were at the club relative to other clubs, how they kind of looked after Ferguson, right, as well with this 2.16 million pound deal as, as far as we know. And I, I think with Ferguson, they basically appear to take the view that so much of the value that the club generates, so much of the revenue that the club generates to this day is tied to Ferguson's work and legacy, right? It's tied to what he did over 26 years, the Games that he managed, the late goals that Man United scored, so much of the character of the club to modern sponsors is really because of him, right? It's not because of Louis Van Gogh, it's not because of Jose Mourinho. It's definitely not because of David Moyes or Ralph Rangnick or Erik Ten Hag, right? It's because of Alex Ferguson. So the Glazers were looking a little and basically thinking, well, you know, for the sake of 2 million a year, and you've got revenues of 600, 700 million, is it that much? Right. In terms of that other stuff that he brings us as well, is he entitled to it? Some people say yes, other people say no. There's a more cynical view that, as you know, as Laurie said, he's never come out and criticized the club over the past decade. Imagine if he had, right, how much more uncomfortable that could have been if it wasn't just kind of Gary Neville every week on Saturday, but also Alex Ferguson, you know, writing books and newspaper columns and all of that kind of thing. Even with the Super League.
- [19:25]
Laurie Whitwell
The one thing was the Super League, because he came out, didn't he, and said it was on the day that we were playing Burnley. And it kind of. It emerged that Sunday, I think, and he gave a comment, I think it was to Reuters, where he basically said, I can't believe that United are involved in this. And that kind of killed it, almost like. So the power. He knew the power of his words, even in that short sort of quote.
- [19:43]
Ayo Akinwalere
But that was it, right? It was like a very, very short quote. That was it. But that's the only time I can really remember now. There's been influence at certain times, whether it's around Ronaldo coming back or Solskjaer a little bit, but also him and the Glazers did just seem to get on. That's the other bit, which you kind of maybe is a bit more uncomfortable for fans, right? Like, these guys got on with each other as well.
- [20:11]
Laurie Whitwell
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akinwalera.
- [20:14]
Ayo Akinwalere
Right?
- [20:17]
Shopify Host
Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, who know very well that when you're starting something new, it seems like that to do list can just keep on growing. When we started this very podcast, we had to figure out all on our own how to get the show on the air, how to set topics, do the research, find sponsors, learn how to grow the audience. And that was all without even launching an online store or selling any merchandise. So finding the right tool to help simplify that to do list and streamline things and get things done can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That game changing tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. With hundreds of retailers ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. It is packed with helpful AI tools to help with content creation that is going to help you write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you even if you don't. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TSS go to shopify.com TSS one more time shopify.com TSS.
- [21:56]
I
Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. Zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants.
- [22:26]
1-800-Flowers Host
This Mother's Day show the moms in your life just how much they mean to you with a stunning bouquet from 1-800-flowers.com for almost 50 years, 1-800-flowers has set the standard for high quality bouquets. Right now, order early from 1-800-FLOWERS and save up to 40% on gorgeous bouquets and one of a kind arrangements guaranteed to make her day. Save up to 40% today at 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers. Com acast, the official florist of Mother's Day.
- [23:02]
Adam Crafton
Well, let's move on because as part of the news cycle over the last few weeks, months in fact is the job of Eric ten Haag. You know, it's also been brought under scrutiny based on the fact that Manchester United have really not started the season that well. And Laurie, you reported that the Dutchman is back at Carrington and preparing his team to face Brentford this weekend. What's happened since the draw with Aston Villa before the international break?
- [23:25]
Laurie Whitwell
Yeah, as I wrote in my piece today, man goes to work isn't usually a newsworthy topic. But in this scenario, just because of all the uncertainty around his position and the public scrutiny, the words that have been written and the fact that as myself and Adam reported last week, that they were having this exco meeting last Tuesday in London, felt like it was bringing to a head, okay, let's discuss Erickson Haag's situation, which is what was discussed. It was part of a long meeting where they touched on a lot of other aspects, including the financial pict at Manchester United, which, I mean, maybe this is, you know, partly where the Thrill Ferguson sort of decision was ultimately taken. I don't know. But so, yeah, so that's why it felt like, okay, what is actually going on with Ericsson Haag here? And there hadn't been a kind of affirmed confirmation, you know, a strong feeling even communicated privately that, yeah, he is our guy. Still, don't, don't worry about that because, you know, results losing to spurs badly, having that kind of chaotic draw against Porto and then having a sort of needs must nil, nil draw against Aston Villa that bought everyone to tears. It wasn't the kind sequence of results that you kind of feel like, okay, this is absolutely his job. Still, he's managed to save it. You know, by the same token, there wasn't a sort of overwhelming sense that they were doing anything other than, you know, kind of just having a discussion about him. And it's, you know, we haven't heard, as we did back in May and June, of them speaking to various different candidates. So, yeah, Erik Ten Hag went away, had a break in the Netherlands and was back at Carrington yesterday. So Monday he felt certainly, from what I'm told after the Aston Villa game, comfortable in his position and that he would be in charge for Brentford. But clearly that again, you know, now it's sort of games game, it feels like where, okay, there's going to be a lot of attention on this game. You know, he needs a win. It's against the manager that they did have communication with at the end of last season in Thomas, Frank. And you know, he even had a dinner actually with Sir Jim Ratcliffe towards the end of last season, which was also attended by Frank Lampard and Roy Hodgson, I should add. But you know, clearly there's, you know, I guess an admiration there.
- [25:20]
Ayo Akinwalere
Were they being interviewed as well?
- [25:21]
Laurie Whitwell
Well, possibly, who knows that's a strange.
- [25:24]
Phil Hay
A strange dinner party that one.
- [25:26]
Laurie Whitwell
The net was spread far and wide. It was after the launch of Ineos Grenadier, the electric car. So yeah, I don't know, it's kind of one of these sort of situations where let's have a look at our car and maybe let's have a little dinner afterwards. It's, you know. So at that point it felt okay. Is this the start of something? But anyway, Thomas Frank is obviously, you know, an engaging character and doing really good work at Brentford. So it'll be a fascinating match to observe. But yeah, the idea that, that, you know, Tenag won't be in charge for that has kind of been put to bed now.
- [25:52]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. Adam, you know, continuously, I mean, till the end of the season I'm sure Erik Ten Hag's job will be in the papers, in the news, but I can't help but think that if there was an outstanding candidate, and still there is an outstanding candidate, if erik10hag would still be in this job at this moment in time.
- [26:09]
Ayo Akinwalere
I don't really understand this point. People keep making it. It's like when's there ever an outstanding candidate, right?
- [26:16]
Laurie Whitwell
Like that's not, that's not Jurgen Klopp and Liverpool was probably the one, right? Pep guard.
- [26:19]
Phil Hay
There will be one next summer at this rate at City, okay.
- [26:22]
Ayo Akinwalere
But he's not going to come to Man United. So I don't understand what people are expecting to happen at like the end of the season. Who's this outstanding candidate that's going to just magically appear out of nowhere. The question is, can you find someone who can make the team not be 14th in the table, right. And win a game in the Europa League, right. The standard is so bad over such over an 18 month period it that you're really just trying to get. Can you get someone. You don't need someone that's going to win the league this season. You need someone that can get them into the top four. At least challenge for the top four. So I think there's enough impressive candidates out there. So, you know, I look at people like Thomas Tuchel, Thomas Frank. I think if I was choosing, he's the one I would go for at the moment, Thomas Frank. But there's the guy at Sporting, Ruben Al Marim, who people talk about. I struggle with this idea that there's no one in the world that would do better at Manchester United at the moment than Eric Ten Hag based on what we're watching week in, week out. So I worry A bit on kind of United's behalf at times. They're almost setting the bar so high of what this candidate must be. You know, you look at Tottenham, when they got Postecoglou, he was like the fourth or fifth choice by the time they actually got him in on a slot, wasn't Liverpool's first choice. Despite whatever people on Merseyside might now tell you, you know, Xabi Alonso was the person that they wanted at the start. So it's never going to be perfect, rarely going to get the man you, you absolutely want. Because they might not be available or market might not be right. But there is a point at which here, like Man United, can't go another year outside of the Champions League. Like it would be commercially disastrous for the club. Right. And particularly in the context of, you know, you've got Omar Berarda telling staff that they're going to win the league by 2028. Well, you're not going to do that if you're not in the Champions League next season because each year you have to build with the, the revenue streams. And also you're talking about building a stadium. Stadium. So if you're going to build a stadium, the quiet part of building a stadium, look at what happened to Arsenal when they were building a stadium. Look at what happened to spurs when they were building a stadium, Real Madrid when they were building a stadium. You spend less money on your first team. That's the trade off because you're doing a big infrastructure project. So if any of us have this ambition to be in a rush to have a fabulous team within three years, it's not as easy as I think they're at times trying to make it out to.
- [28:45]
Phil Hay
I totally agree with that. The outstanding candidate or silver bullet idea is just a bit of a diversion. And on the subject of could somebody do better than 10 hag, the facts seem to speak for themselves. I said on the previous podcast we did about him when Laurie was on, there doesn't seem to be a single box that he actually ticks at the moment. Whether you're running from motivation to the quality of his transfers or his tactics, he seems to fall down on every front. So a change would completely make sense. And it's not as if they're aren't options out there.
- [29:14]
Ayo Akinwalere
There is one outstanding candidate who's just become available as of today, who, who managed the club for quite a long time.
- [29:20]
Phil Hay
Give it a whirl. Why not?
- [29:32]
I
Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pregame rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first 3 orders. Service fees apply for 3 orders in 14 days.
- [30:00]
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- [30:44]
Ayo Akinwalere
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- [30:56]
Phil Hay
I was just going to ask about Ferguson though, because you know, he was down at that meeting literally a week ago and now we've learned that he's he's been removed from this ambassadorial role. So do you think anyhow continued to to lean on him for advice and I guess more pertinently, how much influence would he have on a situation like this where 10 Hag's job is in the balance?
- [31:17]
Ayo Akinwalere
So we can clear it up here. He wasn't there for that meeting in London, I don't think Louie, was he?
- [31:22]
Laurie Whitwell
No, no, not in London. He was in Manchester.
- [31:24]
Ayo Akinwalere
He was in Manchester, but he was there to be told that he was going to be cut. Right. So he was. So he was pictured coming out of Old Trafford. I don't know, it's possible that other things were discussed during that meeting, but as far as I know, the meeting that Ferguson attended at Old Trafford last Monday was face to face with Jim Ratcliffe. Interestingly, Joel Glazer was also there that day, but wasn't, I don't think, in that meeting. So in terms of what would Sir Alex Ferguson's role be at the moment in terms of Erik Ten Hag, I think pretty minimal, to be honest. I mean, I can Imagine, you know, so at the Aston Villa game, the last Premier League game, I mean, you saw them all kind of lined up together in that row. So there was. Ratcliffe was there, I think Dave Brailsford was there, Omar Berarda, the CEO, Dan Ashworth, the sporting director, the technical director, Jason Wilcox, and Alex Ferguson, 10 Hag looking up and just thinking, oh, shit, right? The full cast have turned up to kind of judge what's going to happen. And it does become an event. Event, right? You know, when the cameras pan on them, there's a kind of theater to it. People tuned into that game that day, I think, kind of rubber necking, right? Kind of thinking, villa are on a high. They've just beaten Bayern Munich. Man United are on the floor. This could be 10Hag's last game. This could be anything. We have to watch this kind of thing. And as it turned out, you know, they tuned into rubber neck and instead they got the worst game ever as a result. But I can imagine during that match, maybe the person who sat next to Ferguson, I think it was Wilcox on the day, maybe they would have been talking a bit about the game and the manager and stuff like that. I really don't think it goes that much further anymore. I really don't, because I don't think he has a role in kind of signings or anything like that. Laurie, did you write a while ago that he was kind of involved in some way when they were trying to sign Bellingham? You're going back a few years now.
- [33:25]
Laurie Whitwell
That's the one I was thinking of there where. So obviously he was involved in the Ronaldo. One wasn't there. You know, he made a call there, so. But that was only after, you know, the club had kind of thought, we need to get involved here. It was a club thing. And then kind of, he was sort of commandeered to assist. Similar thing with Bellingham. So Bellingham is getting a tour around Carrington, and I think United felt that having Ferguson there would add a bit of glamour, a bit of sparkle to the pitch that they had for Bellingham. And this is maybe one of those things where it's like, well, okay, he's a young player who wouldn't have known, really, Ferguson's glory years. Although he is clearly a very mature individual and I'm sure or studied in football history, but as far as I'm aware, I reported at the time that that meeting was pretty brief in the end, and I think Ferguson was probably displeased at that. Ultimately, that was at a one Point at which, yeah, let's get Ferguson involved because of the credibility that he has and the power that he has. Also Eric Cantona was there that day, by the way. So kind of another side trying to appeal, I think to the Bellingham's dad, who's a non league striker, sort of that kind of synergy between centre forward. I suppose ultimately he went to Brittany so it didn't work. But that was the last time I can think that Ferguson's had a tangible sort of impact and I do agree with Adam that I think more recently, yeah, he had a lunch with Eriksen Haag, didn't he? I think it's just been more informal. You know, he's there at matches, he was there at the Carabao Cup Final and FA cup final, you know, kind of celebrating. So he wants to be at these events. Clearly his football passion still burns bright. But I do feel like it's been, you know, 10 years and the club is obviously nothing like what he left. And I think he appreciates and realizes that he doesn't have that influence anymore and hasn't for a long time.
- [35:03]
Ayo Akinwalere
I'm also not sure, I'm also not sure he necessarily wants it. That's the other bit. I, I might be wrong there. I think there's definitely been times over the past decade where he may have appreciated being consulted a bit more. I think now, you know, I think he's 83 next. You know, he's got his horse racing, he goes to games, he's got, you know, he's got grandchildren. I don't think he wants to be involved on a day to day basis at Manchester United.
- [35:29]
Phil Hay
Do you think there's a perception among the fans that he's more involved than he is? Because I'm just sort of thinking and I'm obviously at a distance from this, but if he isn't, then what Ineos have done really does just come down to removing a very high paid by the standards of an ambassador, but essentially removing an ambassador from his role.
- [35:44]
Ayo Akinwalere
Well, I mean he is still on. So when United were floated a few years ago that they kind of had, they have a, an official club ball board, which is where you'll have kind of the six Glazer siblings. You've got a few people from INEOS and a couple of independent directors. Then you also have this slightly strange thing called the football board, which at the moment I think it's kind of a couple of the Glazers. There's David Gill, the former chief executive, Sir Alex Ferguson, Bobby Charlton was on it and also a director called Mike Edelson as well. So Ferguson is still on there. I'm not sure that's actually a paid position to be honest. It's kind of a non executive director kind of title. So he still has that title. As I say, I think it's always been. I think David Gills previously described it as a pretty kind of ambassadorial, ceremonial thing. If someone wants to call them, they can call them kind of relationship rather than a relationship where they're attending regular meetings and discussing the trajectory of the club. When Man United have have those big meetings like they did in London last week where you've got Brailsford going down and Ratcliffe going down and all of United's sort of leadership team. Ferguson's not in those meetings. It's far more. Maybe a cup of tea here or a cup of tea there it seems to be Laurie.
- [37:03]
Adam Crafton
I'm just looking at Manchester United's next six fixtures at home to Brentford, away to Fenerbahce in the Europa League, away to West Ham in the Premier League, at home to Leicester for the League cup, then at home again to Chelsea for the League cup cup, then for the Europa League at home to pal be honest with a manager Manchester United have got right now and the way United have started this season, are these all winnable games?
- [37:25]
Laurie Whitwell
I mean they are a more favorable run of fixtures I think than the last batch. At home to Liverpool, home to spurs, away to Villa. Although that being said, the way that United have played just very erratic. There's been moments where they've looked like it's clicked actually. You know that first half at palace but they just couldn't put the ball in the back of the net. But then other moments leaving more of an impression where it looked confusing and certainly the selection at Villa park was startling because of the fact that you had a lot of high profile expensive signings brought in under 10 hag by 10 hag on the bench and it was Johnny Evans and Harry Maguire at centre back to shore up the situation because Martinez and Delix had looked a bit ropey to say the least in Porto. But they should be beating Brentford at home. I mean last season though it did require two late injury time Scott McTominay goals to turn around a defeat into a victory. And obviously Scott McTominay is not at the club anymore and you know that one maybe looks an interesting sale in hindsight a little bit. He's doing okay in in Napoli. Manuel Agarte wasn't starting against after the Spurs Game so he, you know, two, two matches where he's away supporter, away to Villa where he just wasn't even off the bench. So that's a really interesting sort of angle to look at as well. I think he needs time to adjust, you know, to the Premier League, Premier League. But also the issue that Tanaga's now got as well is with the, the fullback situation. So Luke Shaw and Tara Malassia as far as I'm aware are still not in contention to play against Brentford. You've also got Mazrawi who's had a heart operation, should be back soon but not, you know, it doesn't feel like he's gonna be ready for Brentford. So you know, what is his back four going to look like this time? So yeah, it's, it's a. The similar kind of feeling as it started to become at the end of last season with a patched up team and, and I couldn't really predict any kind of scoreline because it feels that this team, if they've got everything going for them, they can produce a decent performance. But as soon as there's a hint of jeopardy or something goes against them, it feels like it's very fragile and I'm sure Brentford are primed to take advantage of that.
- [39:29]
Ayo Akinwalere
Would there be anything more modern Man United than Brentford having scored in the first minute for 10 games in a row? Go. And United have had 10 hogs, had like two weeks to prepare but Brentford still score in the first minute. Old Trafford on Saturday.
- [39:44]
Phil Hay
These are looking at these games coming up that are. They're a bit sort of. It's not as if it's a run of fixtures that are doddle. It's not as if it's a run of, you know, City, Liverpool, Arsenal back to back. But it's a bit weird and wonderful and it makes you think that some weird and wonderful stuff, well, not necessarily wonderful but some weird stuff is going to go on in this run as it always seems to do.
- [40:04]
Laurie Whitwell
Yeah.
- [40:04]
Adam Crafton
And, and Larry, what's to stop them from yet again more specul if he doesn't come off the back of these, these fixtures with a solid result. 10 hag.
- [40:12]
Laurie Whitwell
Well, that's feels like they need to win just to give that situation some breathing space if they lose. I mean it's difficult to predict how he could last much longer. But yeah, I mean Ineos have wanted to stick by him because of what happened in the summer and then deciding okay, in the circumstances he's the guy we have to continue with and we feel is the best man for this job that then came with an additional sort of financial costs if they were to terminate his contracts. And I think as Adam touched on with the whole Sir Alex Ferguson scenario, that, you know, money is obviously tight at Manchester United. So I think that is a consideration in everything. But, yeah, I mean, they have to be beating Brentford, surely.
- [40:52]
Ayo Akinwalere
Let's not sort of like be blind to it. You know, they're all concerns right amongst the hierarchy at the moment around the performances, around, you know, the patterns that they're seeing, the similarities from last season and they're seeing what everyone else is seeing. I think it's just a case of weighing up how beneficial a change would be set against the cost of it.
- [41:14]
Adam Crafton
Yeah. All right, let's end it there. Gents. Adam, Phil and Laurie, thank you so much for your time. We'll be back tomorrow for another episode of the Athletic FC podcast. Thanks for listening.
- [41:25]
Ayo Akinwalere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [41:34]
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Ayo Akinwalere
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J
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.
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Ayo Akinwalere
Yeah.
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J
I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
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Ayo Akinwalere
Are you a.
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Ayo Akinwalere
Of death? Of death? Well, I don't know.
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J
I think about it all the time.
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1-800-Flowers Host
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Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF.
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