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- [01:19]
Ayo Akamilere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ion Akimolere. The Premier League is launching its own direct to consumer streaming channel in Singapore for next season. So what will it look like and could it be a sign of things to come in the uk? All right, in with me in the studio, we've got Adam Leventhal. We've also got Matt Slater as well. Gents, let's get into this because look, Matt, the English top flight is going direct to consumers for the first time with their service, Premier League Plus. Now we'll get into what that could mean for broadcasting later on. But firstly, can you just take us into the deal that's been struck with Singapore?
- [02:03]
Matt Slater
Well, we don't know all the details, we don't know the numbers, for example. But what we do know is what Richard Masters told us last week. The Premier League CEO, he kind of drops it in. He was speaking at the Financial Times Business of Football Conference, which is one of the best football business conferences going, and he's being asked all Sorts of questions about the future of the league, man city, you name it. And he kind of just sort of almost casually announced this. And I was sitting in the audience and I was thinking, well, I've been away at the Winter Olympics. Have I missed this announcement? Just because the way he delivered it was very sort of, kind of, oh, by the way, we're doing this thing in Singapore. And I was like, have I missed this story? And I couldn't see anything about it. In fact, the only thing I could see was the stories that me and loads of other journalists wrote that it might happen about six years ago, which is when the idea was first floated. And then he finally finished talking and there were some questions from the floor. And the very first question from the floor was from Martin Zeger at the time to say that thing you just said in Singapore, is it you? And he basically said it again so that it was the only piece of news of the day. And here's what we know. So starting from next season, the Premier League in conjunction, so it's a joint venture with his existing broadcast partner in Singapore called StarHub Six Year Deal. It's going to go direct to consumer. So this is the thing that people have been talking about. Many people, many fans, many people that respond to our comments on pods and written pieces really, really seem to want have a direct relationship with the Premier League. So that means the Premier League for the very first time not going through though it is a joint venture. These are the bits, these are the details we don't know is going to be handling churn pricing, marketing, not through a third party, not through Sky Sports or NBC. Their Premier League is doing it. So that's why it's so new and it is really interesting. Other leagues, other sports have dipped their toe in this water. We're going to get into I think some of the examples later on. But for the Premier League to do it is really, really interesting because they are the apex predator. They are doing really, really, really well out of the existing broadcast model, which you've had for a very, very long time, where you have auctions and you basically sell your rights to partners on a kind of territorial basis and they do all the heavy lifting. They answer the phone when you say it's not working. They're the ones that kind of make you offers when you say I'm leaving. They're the ones that market spend money that they have call centers. So the Premier League has basically sat there counting the money for 30 odd years, but now it's going to get it's going to get into that game and I think it is really, really interesting and I know we're going to get into this. It's an experiment. It's an experiment in a small market, very strategically chosen for reasons that I can happily expand on and we shall see how it goes.
- [05:05]
Ayo Akamilere
Adam, we'll talk about this experiment more a little later on. But I want to talk about an experiment you did actually way back in November, you released a documentary on illegal streaming in football in particular. Now I've looked at the comments on that and fans were quite heated about it. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that? But also the appetite for fans for this service.
- [05:26]
Adam Leventhal
I think there's a huge appetite for a service like this. And we spoke to people within the documentary who also did a survey within it and then after it as well. And overwhelmingly people want a place where they can watch all the Premier League games whenever they are, including the 3pm blackout, which I'm sure we'll go into as well. What I found interesting going back to what Richard Masters was saying and the position of this link up and this partnership is the fact that it's in Singapore. And actually I was sat alongside Matt when we were at the Leaders conference back in October, another sports conference in the UK and he said that that Singapore office that the Premier League have is princip exclusively to do with piracy. So it isn't surprising to me that they have started this in a country but also in a region that has been causing them so much grief in terms of piracy. And ultimately what fans want is the opportunity to pay less, for more and for more accessibility. And yeah, look, if it comes down the line for the Premier League to do this in the uk then they'll be happy and I think, think that lots of stakeholders, including the fans will be watching how this, this trial goes in, in Singapore because it's, it's, it's game changing ultimately.
- [06:54]
Ayo Akamilere
Yeah. One of the things I found really interesting about that documentary was that, you know, we talk about Singapore, but this is a global thing. You know, the uk, there are various territories. Was there anywhere else where you saw it that was most prevalent?
- [07:06]
Adam Leventhal
It was interesting to, to see how multi jurisdictional this, this is and you can have a big operation like Stream east for example, which a lot of people listening will be familiar with. It's a, it's a big sort of US based brand, but it is a brand and it is replicated in various different markets and regions. And we looked into one of the cases where they were able to take down a proportion of stream east via going to Egypt and, you know, getting hold of a couple of guys that were running things there. So I think that it's, it's clearly an issue that is felt by not only the Premier League, but la Liga, Ligue 1, all the big leagues. And they know ultimately that they can't end it, but they want to disrupt it as much as possible. But also they know, you know, this is a cause and effect situation. The reason why we're getting a direct to consumer platform or they are becoming more prevalent and obviously we've got this trial in Singapore is because the leagues need to get a grip on it because it is a little bit of a runaway train because of piracy. It's not the only issue, but it is a big issue and it's an issue that they talk about a lot.
- [08:19]
Ayo Akamilere
Okay, Matt, why do you think the Premier League have been reluctant to go direct to consumer in the past?
- [08:25]
Matt Slater
I think there are two big reasons and then sort of some smaller reasons. So the two big reasons, I think one is structural. So if you think about the way the whole football industry is structured, clubs need to know how much money they've got to spend, right? That's what drives player recruitment, the transfer market, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the biggest check that they have received has been the central distribution from the Premier League and they sell their rights on a sort of three year basis. They're going slightly longer now. The three year basis was very much a kind of competition issue dictated by the European Union. Longer terms in the States because broadcasters want longer terms and we're moving to that. So. So four or five years now and we've been doing six year deals internationally too. But any. Anyway, the crucial point is the Premier League goes out, sells its rights around the world to NBC, sky, etc. And the clubs know the clubs have certainty and they get a big, big old check from the Premier League. Off you go, there's your budget. By going direct to consumer on a more kind of monthly annual, whatever it is, basis, you don't know, you could have a good idea, you know, the size of the market and you sort of think, well, that's what sky we're getting. I'm just picking them because that's the obvious one. I kind of know the size of the market. We should be able to replicate that. We might even grow it because we might be able to reduce the price. You never know. People might prefer to buy directs from the Premier League. They might think that connection with their club is closer as opposed to a third party, a private company? Who knows? Right. These are all the things that we're going to find out. So you have an idea, but you don't have certainty, you don't have that upfront direct payments. So that's one thing. The kind of structural issue, and I think these are things that sport. If it goes in this direction, and everyone's been predicting it is going to go in this direction, there's just been massive disagreement about how quickly. How do you bridge that? Do you have to go. Do you have to get like a great big bank to almost sort of overwrite the underwrite, sorry, that kind of payment you were getting from the broadcaster, do you have to effectively borrow it to give to the clubs or do the clubs sort of have to budget in a completely different way? We shall find out. So that's that structural issue. The other one, I think is cultural. So the Premier League has been a competition organizer. It's been really good at it, and its sort of commercial role has been this kind of running auctions, stoking interest. Now it's got to be consumer facing. It's got to have a kind of direct interface to you and I, that's just different one. You've got a load more staff, but you've got to be a slightly different organization as well. That's why they've been quite happy to let sky and NBC do that. You know, you guys are good at that. We'll sell it to you, you sell it to them. You're skipping a stage now. So I think those are the two big reasons. Then I would throw things like they've been waiting for the technology to catch up everywhere because they're very worried that certainly if it's you, your name's on the product. And there's lots of latency. Let's say the TV pictures are two minutes behind the radio or it's buffering all the time. You're picking up the phone and moaning at the Premier League. Everybody doesn't want that. So there's been a waiting game for the rollout of 5G and good Wi fi everywhere to kind of catch up to where we want to. So it's a good product. So I think those are probably the main reasons. Oh, and I suppose I should also add that, like I said, the Premier League has been doing really well out of the old model, so it hasn't needed to do this.
- [11:58]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, Matt, They've basically been kicking the can down the road as much as Possible, haven't they? If we're being candid about it, yes.
- [12:06]
Matt Slater
So when Masters made his announcement, I was sort of running around in the back kind of chatting to people about it. And yeah, we all wrote this. Several of us, all the kind of major, all the normal outlets had a sit down with him in 2020 where he talked about this, because I think they'd just gone to market with some international rights and apparently this provision was in their contract, in the deal they'd just done with StarHub in Singapore. We could do this at some point, probably with you, so we're not going to completely stiff you here. But it was in their thoughts. And I remember he kind of talks about it and we would do an experiment. We're not in any rush to do it. It's something we're interested in. La de la dee da and some of the trade press had actually written about it maybe a year or so before that. It's part of the conversation at some point because Netflix was just. Everyone sort of thinks that Netflix has been around forever. Cast your mind back a bit, a decade or so. This idea of a streaming platform and having kind of these monthly subscriptions with a Disney plus or Paramount, whatever it might be. This is all relatively new back then. And I remember at the time it took a long time for Netflix to be. To be profitable. They're the gold standard now. But for years and years and years, the story was, when on earth are Netflix going to make some money? Anyway, that was the conversation back then. And I remember him specifically talking about things like we've got to wait for kind of the technology to catch up for this product to be good. So you're right, they have been kicking the can down the road. I do think that I should probably also mention a few other things that have happened to make this make sense. And they've been preparing the way they've been rolling the pitch. The Premier League. So there was a big sports business story about a year or so ago that the Premier League took in house its overseas content production. Now that sounds a bit. What on earth are you talking about? This is Premier League Productions. They had a 20 year deal with IMG, massive sports agency that basically ran the overseas operations stuff, all that shoulder content, the highlight stuff, the, you know, what they were selling around the world. So. So I don't know, Kenya, Tanzania, South America would basically take a package of Premier League stuff that IMG was making for them. And I think they were doing it. Adam, you probably know this better than me. You probably Work for them at some point, haven't you?
- [14:29]
Adam Leventhal
Well, I work for them. Exactly.
- [14:33]
Ayo Akamilere
About this deal. So Premier League Productions basically makes a whole heap of programs, including match day stuff as well, by the way, live match day stuff. And basically it's shipped out globally and you're looking at super sports in Africa for instance, or Star sports in India or those parts of Asia. And that is now all going in house with the Premier League. So IMG are fundamentally what you class as the production company and that is now going all in house to the Premier League.
- [14:58]
Matt Slater
Exactly. So look, and that story, that partnership was part of the Premier League success, right? Because it was a really high polished product that you could almost sort of say off the shelf. Here you go, broadcaster in Tanzania or wherever. Here's a really, really fantastic package of stuff. The games, the pre and the post, a nice little kind of documentary run during the evenings, the lot, right? And it's all going to look good. And we, our sheen, our sheen of quality is on this. So the Premier League is taking that in house, probably hiring a load of people that used to work for IMG and Premier League Productions and putting it in a sort of state of the art new place in Olympia in West London. So now the Premier League has got into the production business and is now actually getting into the consumer facing, you know, it's doing the lot. So these things have been, have been happening behind the scenes. It's going to give the Premier League a load more control and I think at some point it's going to give them, you know, commercial advantage as well.
- [15:58]
Podcast Announcer
This is the Athletic FC Podcast with IO Agamolere. This episode of the Athletic FC Podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. The 8th of March is International Women's Day and this month BetterHelp wants to celebrate female strength and progress while also recognizing that between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, their emotional well being can easily be overlooked. So once you've listened to this ad, why not take a moment to reflect on the special woman or women in your life? Be your wife, your mother, your daughter, your sister, your beloved aunt and the expectations placed on them and the pressures they feel. Maybe you want to suggest them. Therapy can help create balance, set healthy boundaries and support overall well being for everyone. BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy providers serving over 6 million people globally. Just fill in a short questionnaire and they'll pair you with a therapist based on your preferences, needs and goals. If you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. Safe in the knowledge that BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are licensed in the us. Your emotional well being match find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up right now and get 10 off at betterhelp.com fcpodcast that's better. H E L p.com fcpodcast One last time betterhelp.com fcpodcast all one word with no spaces.
- [17:23]
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Ayo Akamilere
Okay.
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Boost Mobile Representative
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Like I said, this isn't a joke.
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Ayo Akamilere
Ouch.
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Boost Mobile Representative
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- [18:18]
Ayo Akamilere
So the Premier League's current domestic broadcast deal, which runs until 2028, is worth a record 6.7 billion pounds. As previously mentioned, CE CEO of the Premier League Richard Masters was speaking about the deal with Singapore at the recent Financial Times Business of Football Summit. Here's a snippet of what he had to say.
- [18:40]
Matt Slater
We spent two days with the clubs very recently. The first day was spent looking into the future, looking at growth, looking at opportunities. And half that discussion was about our approach to media rights sales. So we're aligned with the clubs, what we want to do in that in that respect. And I think the what we're doing, Premier League plus in Singapore is really about learning as well as building a business. If it goes well, it may be replicatable, but you don't want to predict further than that.
- [19:05]
Ayo Akamilere
I think at this stage here, Adam, we've spoken about kicking the can down the road and waiting for the right technologies to land. I'm thinking about broadcasters like sky, tnt. I mean Sky. Their model is based on Premier League football. Fundamentally, what does this mean for their future?
- [19:20]
Adam Leventhal
It's Interesting, because it sort of made me think about when I was at Sky. I was there from 2003 to 2019 before the athletics. And you would very much know the importance of football to sky because you would sort of hear the murmurings, all the new rights deals are up, up for grabs. And then you would, as we've seen, get the news, oh, we've got the deal for the next four years. And everyone would just sort of relax a bit and think, right, cool, we're good for the next four years. And that's been happening over, you know, a number of years, since 1992, 93. So I think that there is always uncertainty for whatever broadcaster is involved in the deal with the Premier League. But the fact that we now know that the Premier League is going into a relationship with one of two broadcasters in Singapore and going for a direct to consumer model, it will mean that there is a need for a redesign, not only for the Premier League, but. But also for Sky. And what does that mean? That means that, yeah, they are not going to have to pay billions for the rights, but they're also not going to be having the money coming in from customers. So what I think is interesting in terms of a partnership is that will we see that in the uk, will sky become a supplier of their services to the Premier League? And you could argue now that that is the. The sort of equitable relationship that they have already. But it becomes more of A. I mean, we've already talked about D to C, you know, now we might talk, you know, B2B, business to business, that sort of relationship whereby sky supply the services. There might be a little bit of a recalibration in terms of how much money, obviously the Premier League can make, also how much sky would need to make from that relationship. But I suppose, you know, a good example of where it's sort of already happening is the product which sky already have. And I don't work for sky anymore. I'm not promoting it. But, you know, now TV is ultimately the platform that the Premier League would actually like. So I think that there is. There are a lot of things that sky are doing at the moment which shows that the relationship with the Premier League, they've probably known that this is coming and it's about how they can recalibrate both of their business models to work together. But it's a fluid situation because obviously, you know, tnt, we thought were going to be taken over by Netflix.
- [21:50]
Ayo Akamilere
It's now Paramount.
- [21:51]
Adam Leventhal
It's now going to be Paramount. So it is very fluid. And, you know, emerging companies, massive organizations can come into the. Come into the conversation, especially when you have these long rights, deals, arrangements. So, yeah, it's very interesting, but obviously sky watching with interest, but I think behind the scenes they will be having detailed discussions of, right, how do we survive this? How do we move into a new era and continue that relationship?
- [22:17]
Ayo Akamilere
Matt, Adam makes a really good point because, you know, for sky, football is their thing. I know they have the tennis, I know they have the cricket, but the audiences they're getting for the football, oh, my goodness me. I mean, it's incomparable.
- [22:29]
Matt Slater
The Sky Premier League relationship over the last 30 years has been one of the most successful in sports entertainment, really, anywhere in the planet. The two have grown hand in hand together. It's been a fantastic relationship for both of them, which is why I don't see it being broken anytime soon. I think Adam phrased it really nicely when he was talking about that kind of. That tension that even within Sky. Are we going to get the rights? Are we going to get the rights? Oh, yes, we have. So that is. That's the secret. That's the secret source of the Premier League have perfected that competitive tension in their auctions. And we've seen the big leaps over the years, over the decades, whenever someone's come along, a new entrant has come into the market to challenge Sky. That is when sky have been forced to dig deep, too deep at times. There's been, you know, there's been pushback. When Santana came along, when BT first went, right, we're going to take you on over home WI Fi and we think over home broadband, and we think football is the battleground, you know, so we've. Sky's been through these wars, okay? We're now in a kind of sort of peace at the moment. And what's happened, the domestic rights have plateaued. So that is why what the Premier League are doing here is a fantastic hedge, right? It's a great sort of defensive move as well. It's basically saying to any market, we can create the tension. If there isn't a big battle for eyeballs in the Nordics or Canada or South America, we'll do it. So don't think that you can just sit there on your hands and go, you can have the same as you had last time, guys, take it or leave it. You know, you haven't got a rival here. You know that Apple's not going to arrive. The Zone's not going to do. It is us, right? No, the Premier League can Now say, not only can we make the stuff, we've got our own state of the art studio. We're doing it in Singapore. We've learned a lot over there. If you're not going to. If you're not going to enter this auction properly, in good faith, we'll do it. So that, I think, is the really sort of clever bit that no one's really saying out loud yet. That's what's going on here.
- [24:57]
Boost Mobile Representative
Mm.
- [24:58]
Ayo Akamilere
Let's say that it does come to the UK in whatever shape or form. Adam, what does this mean for the 3pm blackout here in England in particular? A lot of our American viewers or global listeners might not realize that here in the UK, if there's a match at 3pm, we cannot watch it. Whereas if you're in the United States, there's a plethora of games all for you to watch. What does that mean for this market in particular?
- [25:23]
Adam Leventhal
I think it's. It's essential that we move beyond the 3pm blackout as soon as possible. And, I mean, that's my personal opinion, but I think that that's also. Judging from what Richard Masters said on stage at the FT, it was almost a throwaway comment about 3pm blackout. He basically sort of said, yeah, we're the only ones that can't watch it and everyone else can. I think they know on the, you know, in the piracy debate, that has to change because people know that there are ways that you can go and watch those three PMs, which are so easy. When we spoke to people, we surveyed them, we spoke to them in interviews as well. 64% said that they wanted the blackout gone. And obviously there is a big debate over whether that then harms attendances at lower league grounds.
- [26:10]
Ayo Akamilere
Is that realistic in this day and age? Well, if Southampton are playing in the Championship, I want to watch Southampton. I don't want to watch Manchester United vs Arsenal if I'm a Southampton fan.
- [26:19]
Adam Leventhal
Well, yeah, I mean, there is the argument that in some areas, I don't know if Stockport are playing at home and you've got Manchester City, Manchester United and it's on the telly, then that might actually, you know, lead to people going, oh, it's wet and windy out there. It's bound to be. It's up there, you know. You know, I don't want to go to the game, I want to watch it on the telly. So there is that argument. But I think, and Matt will probably know far more than I do about it.
- [26:44]
Ayo Akamilere
He's grinning, he's got he's got something. I can see him.
- [26:46]
Matt Slater
That it's I'm looking out the window. I'm in Macclesfield. It's glorious.
- [26:50]
Adam Leventhal
That's glorious. Well, yeah, of course, but in terms of the money that is made by football clubs at a lower level, it's the solidarity money that's dripping down from the Premier League, which is all part of a debate at the moment. And the regulator's getting involved in that. The regulator will certainly get involved on the 3pm blackout that those lower league clubs need those solidarity payments rather than maybe a slight decline in attendances, which at the same time the EFL is saying our attendances are stronger than ever. So the argument for the 3pm blackout doesn't really hang true anymore. It's vital that we move beyond it. I think.
- [27:37]
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- [29:06]
Adam Leventhal
foreign
- [29:10]
Podcast Announcer
you're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamilere.
- [29:14]
Ayo Akamilere
Let's learn more about some other countries across Europe that actually are doing things a little different, especially when it comes to direct to consumer. We need to talk about League Matt, and we've spoken about it on this podcast as well. I mean, they were sort of forced into the sort of direct to consumer Based on collapsed broadcast deals with Dazn etc. Is that an interesting model to look at in terms of how you can take control and potentially make it a success?
- [29:38]
Matt Slater
Well, yes and no. I mean, obviously you'd look because they are a big league that have gone direct to consumer look. Yeah, Ligo and plus. So there's definitely a kind of people like that synergy here.
- [29:49]
Adam Leventhal
Plus name they've got. Sorry to interrupt, Matt, but they've clearly been working with the same marketing firm. We've got FIFA's platform. FIFA plus Premier League plus what? You know, come on, someone's making a lot of money.
- [30:00]
Ayo Akamilere
Some agencies making a lot of money. Exactly.
- [30:02]
Matt Slater
Well, I'm not saying Premier League, the masters announcements rushed out. I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus here. But when he said it and I started writing my story on my. On my laptop, I neatly thought, well, is it Premier League plus word or is it plus is it Premier League plus symbol without a space in between or with a space. So I just started whatsapping Premier League staff and I got different answers, right? So they even hadn't really worked it out, which is, by the way, cymbal with a space in between, which is. I think I might have this wrong. I think league urns is with a symbol without a space in between. So I don't know. But anyway, yeah, not that inventive. Not that inventive. I think F1's is called F1TV, NFL have got game pass, haven't they? So look, there's a few things you could have done, but anyway, they've gone for Premier League Plus. Look, the thing they can learn from Ligue 1 and this is where the Premier League is doing it from a position of strength, right? France had got themselves backed into a corner that had a series of collapse deals that go right back a decade to media pro Amazon. They didn't collapse, it was more. They weren't. They all decided they bid too much and they just weren't getting the money to justify. They weren't getting the subs to justify the upfront payments they'd made for the rights. And they were constantly kind of trying to chip away at Liga and there were various court cases going on. It was ludicrously complicated and they just basically said, we have no choice. So what have they learned? Well, the TV income that the clubs receive has crashed.
- [31:36]
Adam Leventhal
Crashed.
- [31:36]
Matt Slater
It is championship levels. I can't remember. I think PSG are going to get about 10 million. PSG don't care because they have enormous commercial revenues and they get loads and loads of money from the FIFA club, World cup and UEFA. But for everybody else it's a massive problem. On the flip side, various people predicted it would be another embarrassing failure. Well, it wasn't an embarrassing failure. In fact, the numbers of subscribers have been pretty good. Okay, there's definitely, you know, room to grow, the product hasn't fallen over. There were some teething problems, of course there'd be teething problems. But by the end of the season, no one was moaning about the service anymore. And like I said, people weren't quitting. The issue that league Earn would have or any rights holder, any league that chooses to do this is what you do in the summer, right? The football finishes. Does everyone just immediately ditch their contracts? How do you stop that Churn? And this is why, another reason why the big leagues rights holders have always been quite happy to sell them to third parties because sky will then fill it with cricket and golf and they'll stop that Churn movies, whatever, Game of Thrones, they will keep their customers. That's their problem. It's not the Premier League's problem. Lee Gern have had this issue and they tried to fill it with quite a clever deal with some World cup rights. Of course they then got bigfooted by being so, you know, watch this space how they cope with Churn during the summer. But I think the Premier League can learn plenty from Liguern's experience. It's quite helpful that someone else has gone first. Right? We'll watch their mistakes, watch the things that work. What Ligue 1 need to do is probably raise the price a bit and grow the customer base. They need to get more French people watching Ligue.
- [33:24]
Ayo Akamilere
Okay, well let's move on to another country doing things a little bit differently and that's Germany. They've experimented with their Friday night football broadcast as well. Our German football correspondent Seb Safel Blur has been following the story. Here's what he had to say.
- [33:37]
Boost Mobile Representative
Back in August 2025, the Bundesliga announced a new broadcasting rights agreement in the uk. The most attention grabbing aspect of that was the rights package for Friday nights which saw the live games shown across three different platforms. So the BBC via their red button service in the UK and Ireland, but also two YouTube channels. The overlap and also that's football, which is hosted by Mark Goldbridge. The reason for this is fairly obvious. The relative to the Premier League, the Bundesliga cannot command overseas audiences in the same way. It doesn't have the same amount of stars. The league is dominated by one club. Obviously it's a Lot harder. In addition to which, the average age of a Bundesliga fan in the UK, according to research, is just over 40 years old. Whereas of course, the average audience age for the two YouTube channels is considerably younger. So the strategy is become easier to find, become more available, put yourself in front of younger people, broadcast free to air. It all makes sense. And as part of the article, I got to speak to Pen Albert, who is the CEO of Bundesliga International. It was very interesting. We talked about some of the performance, which is really encouraging. The cumulative audience the season is up, up 15 times on it was last year. And in addition to which, social media interest is a lot higher. Engagement with ancillary products like little bits of content, tactical analysis, these things. That's a lot higher too, and involves a lot of the younger players who eventually will migrate towards the Premier League one day. So that's a good thing. But he was also stressed that this is not a one year approach. It's not, let's do it for 12 months, evaluate it and then make a decision. He said, it's something we want to do over three to five years. It's a test and trial approach. And he said, yeah, you know, I'm not in a position to tell anybody it's a success or to say that this is exactly the right formula that everyone other than the Premier League should be applying, but it says absolutely the right thing for them to be trying now, for them to be creative and innovative and try new solutions. And the thing he didn't want to do that he stressed was you don't want to just go through the same old procedure again and again. Didn't want to just go to a streamer or a traditional broadcaster once every three or four years, sign a contract for the same amount of money and watch the audience dwindle over time. So very interesting experiment. It is an experiment with some really interesting results. And great to talk to Pen now, but but also to. To Mark Goldbridge, so known as Brent De Cesare, and some of the people from the overlap who've been working on the Bundesliga this season. So really, really interesting.
- [36:32]
Ayo Akamilere
Yeah, cheers for that, Seb. And this, this is a fascinating one just in football and the way it's consumed in general. Adam, I'm thinking about younger audiences. Matt talks about, you know, people still wanting that live experience, but we know that younger audiences aren't coming to live matches the same way. Perhaps their parents were. Is this necessary, this idea that you can go to streamers, you can also go to YouTubers and people like Mark Goldbridge to Try and bolster the product.
- [36:55]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, you have to, you have to diversify, don't you? Because, you know, people have different consumer habits now and you have to ensure that you're part of the conversation. Even if you, you might have the live rights. You also then need to provide that, you know, shoulder content. As, as Matt was saying, you know, I remember being at sky and on the walls often, you would see it's only live once, and that's their big motto. So you still have an attractiveness for the live action. As Matt was saying, people going to games but also watching it live. You know, the highlights, the clips, the alternate ways to watch. You know, we were talking about Ligue 1 before I saw a clip. It popped up on LinkedIn. Someone, one of the sort of associated parties of Ligue 1, had posted how you can watch the game in more of like a, you know, people in the UK will be familiar with sky sports news, the on screen graphics, but also that the names of the players will pop up in real time. It will bring up data as the game's going on. So people want that sort of stuff now. And there's an expectation, especially with the, you know, the growth of esports, which is the fastest growing sport in the world, that people have different consumer habits. I mean, you could argue sometimes, and I've had this moment sometimes with my son, you're watching a bit of a drab Premier League game and at halftime you go, should you have a game of FIFA or EA or whatever? And you think, yeah, this is actually more fun. This is actually more fun. So you're competing against that. And I mean, one example comes to mind that, that if you're not being talked about, you do disappear. James Horncaster will kill me for saying something like this, but, you know, obviously Serie A became so popular in the UK because of Gazzetta. Football Italia. James Richardson, who we know very well here, the host of Totally Football, you know, when that disappears and you don't have that additional content, you lose the conversation. And, you know, I suppose City Hour will probably say, well, it'd be great to see the data of consumer habits in the UK after Gazzetta went. And, you know, that's what everyone now needs to do. Even if you're just giving away something at times, speculate to accumulate rather than.
- [39:05]
Ayo Akamilere
What do you mean, for free instead of charging.
- [39:07]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, and if it's highlights and if it's clips, at least you're still being talked about. You know, you make your big money from your traditional broadcast deals. And yes, we're discussing that. That is changing, but give away a little bit and you might get the fans in the future. And that's what they have to. That's what they have to look at.
- [39:22]
Ayo Akamilere
Let's speak about the dominance of the Premier League in many respects, because, you know, we've spoken about giving something away in particular, but we're talking about leagues like Germany and France that aren't as big as the Premier League. And look, Premier League TV money is at an all time high and way above their rivals in European leagues. There are nine Premier League teams now through to the knockout stages of UEFA's major tournaments this season. When we talk about competitive balance. And I'll come to you first man, please follow on. Adam, is this a little worrying for European football?
- [39:54]
Matt Slater
Yeah, and they've been worried about it for a while. Yeah, yeah. Look, again, you mentioned James Hall Castle. This is his great big bugbear. We've got to stop talking about the big five leagues. It's one league and some big teams. And it's almost got to the point now where we have a big eight, whatever, it's the big six, plus probably Newcastle and Villa and even, you know, clubs like Crystal Palace, West Ham, you know, they're not. They're not far off if you just look at their kind of turnover. The Premier League is very deep, has a lot of money because it's got a lot right. You know, matchday revenues are great. Full stadiums, good stadiums. That's very much Italy's problem. Great commercial revenues again, because the commercial revenues follow the eyeballs. No league, even the NFL, which is the gold standard, you know, just because in terms of his utter control, his domination of North America, you know, the world's biggest economy. No, no, no one is making as much money from overseas rights as. As the Premier League. It's an amazing story, so well done then. But, yeah, it is a worry. If I was. If I was the best, you know, one of the best teams in Portugal, the Netherlands, Italy, France. That isn't psg. Yeah. Yeah. You're seeing yourself routinely now outbid, outspent by teams that they would have been thinking, what, Bournemouth, Brentford? Sorry, who? What division are they in?
- [41:21]
Ayo Akamilere
Crystal Palace.
- [41:22]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Matt Slater
Has it crept up on us? I mean, it might have crept up on some people, but this has been coming in some ways. It's. Is it incompetence, bad luck? I don't know the nature of how intense football is in the Premier League. It's taken a while to get here. People have been waiting for this. You know, the Doom hungers on the continent have been like, oh, my God. If we're not careful, the Premier League's just going to their financial advantages. How do we deal with it? Yeah, it's been coming. So, yeah, I think it is a concern. Concern for UEFA. UEFA. What UEFA can almost do is the reason we have these big clubs in other leagues is because they are getting guaranteed almost entry to the Champions League almost now, guaranteed entry to the FIFA Club World Cup. That is what enables them to go eyeball to eyeball with Man United and Man City and Liverpool. You know, Real and Barca still do really well in the Deloitte lists. It's what happens underneath them. They are moving away from their domestic rivals and making things worse at home and compounding the problems in terms of
- [42:28]
Adam Leventhal
what the other leagues are saying about the Premier League. I find that really interesting and Matt will have listened as well at that FT conference that we heard Richard Masters at Javier Tebas, who is. Is not backwards in coming forwards about all sorts of different things. It was very entertaining to watch. You know, you were speaking earlier on in the week about financial fair play and new rules and, you know, Chelsea making a massive loss and all that sort of stuff. You know, the financial rules. He believes that the Premier League are pushing away and basically don't care about the rest of them. And he would say that everyone needs to have the same rules. You could argue that UEFA, obviously, their rules for UEFA competitions, then there is some equilibrium there. But then at the same time, each league has its own interests. You know, the Premier League clubs, Richard Masters is only really answerable to the shareholders and they're the clubs. Those clubs are answerable to their owners, you know, their owners and their hedge funds and things like that. So his job is to make as much money for the Premier League as possible. And for as long as he can do that, he will do it. And it's also interesting from. From Javier Tebas. He will have beef with Nasser Al Khalifi, who's the, you know, president of Paris Saint Germain, but also has, you know, controlling interest on. On being sports in Qatar as well. So he'll say that there's a conflict of interest there. That's all part of the. The conversation. But then at the same time, whilst he says, you know, we need equilibrium amongst all the leagues, he's also arguing, well, I want to be able to take La Liga games to the United States to make more money for my league, whereas other leagues will go, well, we're not going to do that, but I Do just find it really interesting that they're all competition, they're all in business, each of them wants to be the top dogs, and they're all basically a bit jealous of the Premier League. The interesting thing for me to sort of take it back to the piracy issue and having to sort of recalibrate the finances. And we discussed this in the documentary, if anyone wants to go back and listen to it. It was raised by one of the speakers that we had in there that there is a shock absorber within the game if you need to recalibrate the finances from replacing broadcast revenue to a fluctuating subscriber model. And it's your wages. So wages can go down. Players don't have to be earning, you know, I mean, my son always, like, enjoys telling me how much Cristiano Ronaldo earns, you know, per day, per minute, all this. And it often leads into a conversation about pocket money, but, you know, they can earn less. And what interests me, what Richard Masters said in that speech, where we all started on this episode, is that they are having discussions with the clubs. It almost sounds to me that the roadmap is there. You know, we've got our new financial rules in for the. For the Premier League. You're just going to need to cut your cloth accordingly a little bit. There might be a little bit of pain down the road, albeit our overseas rights are growing by 27%, but we're recalibrating. You might need to recalibrate as well. So it's an interesting time.
- [45:33]
Ayo Akamilere
Okay, well, let's have a little palette cleanser then, before we sign off, because something exciting to finish on today's podcast. They're officially 100 days to go till the World cup, obviously hosted in Mexico, USA and Canada. Now, 100 of our writers have picked a player they're most excited to watch at the tournament. So, you know, I'm going to ask you gents, who are you most looking forward to seeing at the World Cup? Adam?
- [45:57]
Adam Leventhal
Well, we were, you know, we were sort of urged to not go for the obvious ones and I sort of reverted back to my Watford fandom. And I thought, right, who's going to the World cup from Watford? So I picked Nestery Irancunda. Right. Look at that Australian attacker winger, fast box of tricks. And he can take an amazing free kick as well, so look out for him. And he's a lot of fun. And I think that's what it's about, isn't it? At the World cup, you discover a player that you've never heard of or you've never seen before, and you think, wow, I'm really, really glad that I watched this random game, all of these, you know, thousands of games that we've got the World Cup. I'm glad I watched it because he's just done something crazy.
- [46:43]
Ayo Akamilere
All right, Matt, come on in.
- [46:45]
Matt Slater
Well, I mean, I'm gonna make my excuses right now in that I think I was about the 98th or 99th person to fill the form out and I did like a control F to say, oh, yeah, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone.
- [46:56]
Adam Leventhal
Oh, dear.
- [46:57]
Matt Slater
So I went for Frank Kessie, and the reason I went for Frank Kesse, who of course is captain of Ivory coast, is that it's the first game I'm going to cover. Ivory Coast, Ecuador. So I'm very excited. I'm excited about the World cup and for the reasons that Adam just outlined. You know, I'm going to watch Frank Kessie. But you know what? It might be the right back that I've never seen before, the winger or some player from Ecuador. But I like Frank Kessie when he was playing in Italy, and I'm also slightly intrigued because he went to Saudi Arabia three years ago. He was the kind of player that you would maybe think might go to a Premier League club. But no, he's played for Al Ahly and is doing really well there. But I wonder if it's taken the edge off. I wonder if it's had any impact on him.
- [47:40]
Adam Leventhal
I don't know.
- [47:42]
Matt Slater
So, yeah, but is that the honest answer is probably Harry Kawakane to score seven goals and I want to go eight goals and I want England to win the World Cup.
- [47:53]
Ayo Akamilere
Well, that's. I mean, at least you're honest. At least. Sure. I saw the other journalists are pretending to want to watch a niche player. You just want England to win the World cup, don't you? That's the reality.
- [48:02]
Adam Leventhal
Look, I'm just your pick.
- [48:03]
Ayo Akamilere
I wouldn't even say player. I'm looking forward to seeing Haiti in the World Cup. Like, you know, I mean, this is the joy of it. I know people talk about the extended World cup and the amount of teams that are playing, but that this team haven't qualified for the World cup since 1974. Yeah, I mean, that's the joy of it, is that in a weird way, not just the players, but we get to see niche teams and we don't even know half of that Haitian team with any of that Haitian team or where they play. So just to see them even represent their country. Honestly, I'm so, so looking forward to it. All right, let's leave it there, Jets. Honestly, we could talk World cup all day. Adam, appreciate your time. Matt, thanks for joining us. And also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.
- [48:39]
Podcast Announcer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The Executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, Search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe the Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [49:16]
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