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- [00:01]
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- [01:21]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. With fewer than 60 days before the World cup begins, that eye watering of tickets remain a contentious issue. So will this be the most expensive football tournament ever? And if so, who is this World cup actually for? All right in with us for this one. We've got the Athletics, Adam Crafton, we've got Matt Slater, and we've also got Henry Bushnell as well. So gents, let's start with this and I'm talking at the cost of the World Cup. Adam, Henry, you're both based in the usa. Is the World cup fever gripping the country yet? We'll start with you, Henry.
- [02:06]
Henry Bushnell
I would say no in part because nothing really grips the United States more than a week before it happens or as it's happening. But no, there's definitely not an excitement for this. The excitement in among sports fans right now is for the NBA playoffs and for the Masters, which just happened this past weekend. The vast majority of headlines around the World cup, the thing That a random person knows who you meet on a Saturday morning is ticket prices and the peace prize that Gianni Infatino gave Donald Trump. Those are kind of the things that the average person knows. They don't. I wouldn't say they're, they're that excited about the football just yet.
- [02:43]
Ayo Akimolere
Oh yeah, I was really surprised. There was, wasn't much activation in New York, Adam. I don't know what you've seen. I was there a few weeks ago, even in Midtown. I didn't really see much sort of World cup stuff knocking about. Why have they not sort of promoted it more? Or maybe I'm just not seeing it
- [02:59]
Adam Crafton
partly because it's expensive to promote stuff at any stage in New York and we'll probably get into this, but there's all sorts of disputes over who pays for what when it comes to this World cup. And I think that's part of it. I think also part of it is what Henry says, which is in the politest way possible. American attention spans don't expand, you know, three to six months before a major event. They just don't. You know, no one's, no one's talking about the super bowl in September or October, you know, so that's not that unusual. I guess it's unusual coming off the back of, you know, Qatar where it was like a nation defining moment. But ultimately, you know, it'll be nice for a New York or an LA or a San Francisco Bay Area to have a few World cup games, but it's not going to change anyone's world in New York, Louisiana or the Bay Area. And that I think is like one of the interesting realities that FIFA are coming to terms with because they're used to going to places and finding people desperate for their product. And there is appetite for the World Cup. Of course there is, but I don't think there is that kind of impatience and anticipation in the way that we might be used to.
- [04:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, Matt, let's talk about ticketing because Henry touched on it earlier. The prices to attend matches this summer are the highest in World cup history. Standard group stage tickets will cost $700 and lower level tickets for the final is over $8,000. To give context, tickets for the Qatar World cup final in 2022 cost the equivalent of $1,604. That's 1,214 pounds for the top priced seat. It's also really interesting because UEFA have now stated they'll cap ticket prices for the 2028 Euros. It's quite a contrast Is, yeah, I
- [04:51]
Matt Slater
mean, a huge contrast. More than one. So it's interesting just listening to Henry and Adam talking about what the US is discussing at the moment. I just did a quick Google search like 10 minutes before we came on, just to sort of check the latest ticket price news. And honestly I got pages and pages of, you know, mainly UK sites, but English language sites, I guess. I'm sure if I was looking in other languages it'd be similar in France, Spain and Italy. Germany, just loads of stories about resale sites. You know, everyone's running kind of headlines about, you know, someone is presumably a bit like kind of people put silly fantasy football teams in. Someone has put an $8 million ticket for the, for the final on the, on the official FIFA resale site. They're not, no one's going to buy that obviously, but, but people are putting on tickets for the final at 10,000, 11,000, $12,000, just in the same way that they're putting on tickets for England's first group game against Croatia at $1,000, $1,000 plus two, three times face value. So there's a massive contrast in terms of what we're talking about. The point about UEFA I think is really, really interesting. There are so many points of contention between UEFA and FIFA and I think some of it is a little bit performative at times. You know, UEFA do like to be. We're not FIFA, but I think on this one they kind of mean it. And I suppose there's a very obvious reason they mean it because their customers are European football fans. They have to mean it. We over here feel differently about this subject of whether unfettered capitalism and just allowing the market to set the price for something like football is a good thing or not. You know, in Europe we don't, you know, we do debate it. There have been a number of stories over the years where people have tried to be more American about this and there has been a reaction. There's been a very obvious, almost old fashioned trade union like reaction to it. So UEFA are broadly speaking, going to stick to the price brackets, the price categories that they had for Germany, you know, a country with a very organized football culture, they had their Fan first ticket, which is like their kind of Cat 4 ticket in FIFA, terms of €30, which is a little bit over. It's like whatever it is, 33, 34, 35, at the moment, just under 26, 27 pounds at the moment. And then their next level ticket was, I think it was their Cat 3 ticket was €60. So, you know, Broadly around, let's call it sort of 30ish dollars, 65, $70 and about 40 to 45%, I think, of the total 3 million tickets for Euro 2028, which is in the UK and Ireland, are going to be at those very, very affordable, regular, if you like, Premier League, EFL level prices. So it's a completely different approach. Now what, you know, UEFA aren't, it's not hair shirt, it's not like Karl Marx there. They do realise there's money to be made at the top end and they're going to fleece rich people who apparently don't mind being fleeced because you, you know, you give them a glass of wine and a free program and a comfy seat and a cup holder and everyone's happy. But at the bottom end they are not shifting. You know, there will be a lot of tickets available for Euro 2028, just as they were in Germany at, as I say, £30ish, £60ish. Completely different approach.
- [08:32]
Ayo Akimolere
This idea of being misled. You've written a piece on it, funny enough. When buying certain World cup tickets, can you give us a little flavor of what you have uncovered?
- [08:41]
Henry Bushnell
Yes, I think it stems from another different, you know, I was going to touch on there just like the differences between US sports ticketing and European UK sports ticketing, there part of it is cultural, part of it relates to business practice. I think it has led to this issue of fans feeling deceived because US sports fans are very accustomed to buying a specific seat in a specific section of a stadium for a specific price. They're not used to this. The category system, which, you know, is obviously is what FIFA is used, it's what the IOC and Olympics organizers use. It's what a lot of European soccer clubs will or football clubs will use. So fans, like, they don't have an experience of doing this. So they went on to FIFA's ticketing site, they saw a category one ticket. They thought, okay, look, what does, what does that mean? And they saw these color coded stadium maps, right, that showed, okay, like category one supposedly is the entire lower bowl of the stadium. And in some cases the good, the good second level seats. What they didn't see, what FIFA didn't show them is hospitality maps that basically showed, okay, actually all the good lower level seats, the ones on the sideline near midfield, are reserved for hospitality. And then when FIFA converted all the, you know, the category tickets to specific seats, they gave all these fans who had already bought in previous sales phases basically the worst possible seats within These categories, or maybe not all the. All the fans, but a lot of them. A lot of people got tickets behind the goals, in corners, not where they would want to be. You know, in part because these good seats were reserved for hospitality, in part because FIFA was also holding some tickets back and they are now selling some of the front row seats for even higher prices. So basically, fans feel like they were misled in what seats they could possibly get. When they were buying this Category 1 ticket, they thought they could be anywhere within the lower bowl, when in reality it seems like that was not the case.
- [10:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Interesting. Matt, I want to talk about the kind of money that's going to be generated by this World Cup. I mean, it's a lot of money. I look at previous World Cups, I look at the Brazil World cup, and I think we've spoken about this before. I was on the streets of Rio photographing protests from locals saying, this World Cup's coming to town. It's made a lot of money, but we've seen nothing of it. There's a piece by Mark Gleason in Reuters. You know, I think this is in 2020, saying a decade on from the South African World Cup. Where's the money gone? Where's the investments gone? Infantino said in February that he expected the World cup to yield over $11 billion for FIFA. Where is this money going?
- [11:20]
Matt Slater
Well, I think there's a few things there. IO so I'm afraid major events be the Olympics, World Cups, world championships, could be, you know, track or even Commonwealth Games, whatever, major events and not just sporting events, kind of huge culture events, expos and what have you have a terrible record of not living up to expectations in terms of return for the host. So, I mean, there are so many examples. It'd be better to talk about the examples where there was some kind of return. They're easy to talk about is there's so few of them. And then it becomes a lot of kind of, you know, where you draw the line and, you know, was there a marketing, was there a halo effect? You know, Barcelona's often sort of talks about the 92 Olympics. For the most part, major events do not deliver the promises. They just don't. What Infatino's talking about, I think is more realistic. It's kind of quantifiable and it's what we're talking about today. He is talking about the revenues from the tournament. And I remember when he first started talking about it, I can't remember what it was. I was at the Congress in particular, it was kind of 10 billion, which is this huge number. It was going to be the biggest ever. And of course, don't forget we've gone from 32 teams to 48, 104 games. So it should be bigger and you know, inflation as well. So the next thing should always be bigger, particularly if you are actually adding a load of inventory in terms of games. But this is clearly a step. It's not just that, it's not just that there's more of it, it's the price you can charge. And there's a sort of wider point here that for some time almost every American involved in football, soccer has felt like they are being used like an atm. America, the American market, the rest of the world, the rest of the football world has had its beady eyes on it. So, you know, there's an awful lot of hypocrisy here. And you know, no one's more hypocritical than a bigger hypocrite than FIFA has had their eyes on this market for some time. And my word is FIFA going to, going to ka ching this one. So yeah, 11 billion in revenue and that will be broadcast, that'll be ticketing, that'll be sponsorship. And I, and I don't doubt he went from, I remember here, he upped it, I think, I'm pretty sure that was Rwanda. So that was around 20, 22, 23. And it was like this kind of, oh, little ripple of a blow. No, no, it was a gasp. It was like, oh, 11 billion. I don't doubt they're going to get there. And I wonder if he's even undershot so that he can then say afterwards, I said 11, it was 11 and a half, it was 12. Because then that will be the answers, all the problems, answers, all the criticisms. No matter what people moaned about, you know what, it was 12. I said it was going to be the biggest and it was. So where does it go? I think that's a better question that, you know, some of it is the cost of the tournament and I suspect they're going up as well. I think they're kind of talking about three and a half billion. Everything that Adam and Henry have been reporting makes me think that's going up. The rest of it, you know, this is FIFA's stock defense is we're non profit. They pay some pretty big salaries to their staff. But you know, there are the costs of the business. As long as they don't get too excessive, their members, their voters won't have a revolt. The key thing is that he keeps dishing. Infantino, FIFA, they just keep dishing more out to the member associations. They've got 200 and is it 11 of them? I can't. I always get confused. They like to say they're bigger than the United Nations. So 200 plus nations, again, one of the key sort of FIFA moments, you know, Adams talks about 2016. So when Infantino came in, his first congress was Mexico. I was in the room, he took the lectern and it was all the new FIFA stuff. You know, the bad guys have all gone, new sheriff in town. But the message that really delivered was, you know how we used to sort of give you about $2 million over a four year period? I'm giving you five. Well, he's now up to eight. I think he's going to like nine or ten in the next cycle. So you can see these big leaps. So every single One of those 200 plus member associations is getting $2 million a year.
- [15:32]
Henry Bushnell
And that goes back to the original ticket price conversation, like who is FIFA responsive to? Whereas a European football club is responsive to their fans, the people that are going to the match every weekend or every other weekend, and who would revolt if there was extreme ticket prices and then you lose your whole fan base. FIFA is responsive to these member organizations that Matt is talking about. They're not responsive to fans who. Fans aren't really organized around the World Cup. So yeah, a lot of Americans are, you know, baffled by the ticket prices and criticizing them, but after July 19, it's not really going to matter to FIFA. And so that's why FIFA feels more comfortable charging these high prices. They just, their goal here is to milk as much revenue out of this tournament as possible.
- [16:23]
Adam Crafton
I think you're right, Henry. The only thing I would say is FIFA has a small amount of countries. I think now that it can actually take a World cup to and get out of it what it actually wants out of it, which is a hell of a lot of money that it can then, you know, as we say, redistribute to all its nations. And the US is the best of the markets for them, for all of the challenges, however much crap they get over the next six months or so, however difficult any of the stakeholders might make it, they will make more money here than they would make anywhere else. And I think one of the stories we're going to see in sport over the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years is that it's going to end up being like a very small rotation of nations or regions or joint efforts that are actually able to host or prepare to host World Cups or Olympic Games. And for that reason, the US Market actually does remain important. So you can't entirely alienate them. I mean, they're trying to do the Women's World cup here in 31. It's the only, it's the sole bidder, you know. But in some ways, 2038 might end up being here. Right? If we go into the FIFA rotation principle, because you've got 2030 in Africa, South America, Europe, and then you've got 2034 in Asia. If they don't change that rule, then it has to be here or Oceania, and it's not going to be in Oceania. So they might need it back here quicker than we think. Or they might change the rules. So just in terms of a long term proposition, and also this seems to have gone out of fashion. But soccer, despite what people might say about participation, is still a growing spectator sport. And there is still a customer base and fan base that needs to be developed and needs to be made accessible for. And there is a risk that you just turn people away, that you miss your chance to capture people. You know, a small, not small, a relatively small amount of people were captured in 1994, last time around, in 1999. But this was meant to be the boom moment. You know, for 10, 15 years, all we've heard is this is going to be the moment. Is it? Let's see.
- [18:36]
Matt Slater
Well, just on that, Adam, I think there are many people that could should be angry about these ticket prices and just the general conversation that we're having right now, I'll throw two in. That should be furious. MLS and US Soccer, what was this World cup meant to be for them and what's it going to be at the moment? Look, I'm going to caveat all of this and we should caveat the entire podcast with once the football starts. And it's brilliant, as World Cups often are, as Qatar was, in many ways, the conversation does change. But at the moment, the conversation around this World cup is very, very negative. And if I was mls, US Soccer, anyone that's really cared about soccer and nurtured it in the US over the last 30, 40 years, that remembers 94. Don't forget MLS was launched off the back of 94. This was supposed to be the next big step. And I think FIFA here, they have lost sight of this. Right? It was often said to me that football is so much bigger than all the other sports, and yet it's not the number one sport in the three Biggest countries, not even close. China, us, India. Can you imagine how big soccer football would be if it was the biggest in those? Was this World cup not meant to help that? Henry? Adam, you're there. I'm not sure it is.
- [19:54]
Adam Crafton
Well, I mean, the other thing that's interesting is MLS own a joint venture with On Location, the hospitality provider for FIFA for this World Cup. So they will also be benefiting, you would presume, therefore, from this. I mean, I just mean that on a financial level. And maybe that explains why they have not said as much perhaps as you might want them to in many ways. I mean, Don Garber, the MLS commissioner last week basically came out defending FIFA and came out defending the pricing strategy. He said it was smart. So that's interesting. I think US Soccer are much quieter about it. I think the role of U.S. soccer in general for this World cup is fascinating in itself because FIFA kind of just taken control of it. US Soccer aren't even on the White House task force relating to the World cup, which you would think that they might be as a host federation. So, you know, they are, they're almost guests really at their own World Cup. We know which FIFA are putting on, which is a very unusual thing.
- [20:58]
Producer/Host
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- [23:25]
Henry Bushnell
Foreign.
- [23:29]
Producer/Host
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- [24:34]
Ayo Akimolere
Well on top of tickets, it will also cost a lot of money for fans to travel to and within the us Stay nearby hotels and even park their car near the stadium if they can get to it. I really want to talk about who this World cup is for. Henry, can you just give us a sense of the kind of costs facing fans once they get to the U.S.
- [24:56]
Henry Bushnell
yeah, and obviously this, the contrast here is the previous men's World cup in Qatar, where you could fly to one place, stay in one place for as long as you want. You didn't have to travel anywhere other than with Ubers or the Metro, which was free, by the way. And you could get to. You could get to multiple games in a day if you wanted to. Whereas here you're going to be traveling around the country. And everybody, as Adam and Matt have been covering very well, everybody from the regional, you know, local transit organizations to hotels, everybody wants to capitalize on this, just like FIFA does, which, which is not, you know, was. Was much less. So the case in these other countries that saw the World cup for. For more. So for the intangible benefits and for the, the prestige of it, they wanted to put on a good show for the world. The US doesn't really care about that. They want to make their money back. And the local entities are putting money into this World Cup. Everything is going to cost money. Things that you don't even realize if you're traveling here for the World cup are going to cost money. The parking at the stadiums at minimum cost $100. And by the way, some people will avoid that and do ride shares. The Uber prices are going to be ridiculous around these games. They are at NFL games like come. If you're coming back from NFL game, you want to get to your home that's 15 minutes away from the stadium, you're probably going to pay. You're definitely going to pay over $50 for that. And it's. It's probably going to be worse for the World cup because there's going to be so much more demand because people aren't going to be parking at the stadiums. Everybody's going to be looking at rideshare. And some of these stadiums are super inaccessible via public transit. So. So that's one thing that again, you're going to have to travel between host cities if you want to follow your team. If you're not just going to one game in one city that's going to cost hundreds of dollars on flights or in a few cases, trains. But the country's so spread out that it's mostly going to be flights. So all of it is going to add up into by far the most expensive World cup ever. Even if you were to take out
- [26:59]
Ayo Akimolere
ticket prices, Henry, you've got A real point there. And something that's always been really fascinating to me traveling to America is firstly, its size, but secondly, Adam, is how sometimes badly connected a lot of the cities are. I guess if you're coming with a, with a European gaze to a certain degree, and I live in London, there's a tube system and every, every tube system basically leads to most other facilities that you need to get to. But sometimes I'm in New York, sometimes I'm in Miami, sometimes I'm in Los Angeles. And trying to get around is so, so difficult. It's going to be really difficult for fans to get around for this World Cup. And as Henry said, sometimes they might have to just fly to get to a.
- [27:38]
Adam Crafton
Sounds like your life's all right. One day you're in Miami, the next year in Los Angeles.
- [27:42]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, this is a build up.
- [27:43]
Matt Slater
Come on, mate.
- [27:45]
Adam Crafton
No, you're right. It really depends where you are in the States. I think the rail network between kind of the northeast kind of corridor is all right. New York, dc, Boston, Philly's okay. It's not as fast as it should be, really, if you compare it to other places in the world. It's been funny over the last few weeks where Inter Miami have just opened their new stadium and there's this kind of like bewilderment from local people that there is a metro system that is functioning and that fans are taking it to the game and that this could be a good idea and things like that. So there are signs of kind of development and life within it. Like for some of the areas, this will be fine. I mean, like Atlanta's Metro I think will be absolutely fine. The stadiums that are downtown, I think Seattle, I think is downtown as well. There's a few others, but then there are some that are a nightmare. They are a nightmare. I went to Boston's Gillette Stadium, which is probably 30 or 30 ish miles away from Boston. It's not Boston. Right. It's the middle of nowhere. There is nothing there. And normally people drive. But one of the slightly weird things about this tournament is the amount of parking is going to be limited, basically because FIFA kind of want the perimeter of the stadium to be much bigger, which also from a, from a US sports fan experience is a shame because it also means that tailgating is going to be diminished outside stadiums and things like that, which is actually one of the best things about US sports experiences. So that's a shame. Just like put some prices on it and give a sense of how. I mean, you know, Henry you could talk about, like, public transit agencies kind of milking this to a certain extent. I mean, a normal game in Boston, to go to an NFL game to watch the Patriots, $20. They're making $80 return ticket for the World Cup. Oh, and today. I mean, they're literally going to announce this today. So by the time we do this, it'll be live. They're doing an alternative bus. So when I heard there was an alternative bus, I was like, oh, that's great. It's going to be a cheaper option. It's a bus. How expensive can a bus be? How expensive do you think the bus is? IO, I don't know.
- [29:53]
Henry Bushnell
$50, $60.
- [29:55]
Adam Crafton
95 for a bus, a return bus
- [29:58]
Ayo Akimolere
to get to and from the stadium. Is that a return ticket?
- [30:02]
Adam Crafton
It's a return. It's a return ticket. And it will leave, you know, you'll have to leave 30 minutes after the final whistle as well. So it's quite limited in that sense. No concessions for seniors or kids, accessibility passengers. And, you know, like I asked someone working on it yesterday, I said, have you ever paid $95 for a bus? You know, I was like, you're giving me these reasons, some of these reasons, but have you ever paid $95 for a bus? And it was just sort of silence after that. And it's hard to get your head around. I mean, New York, ordinarily, to go from New York Penn Station to MetLife, again, not an easy journey. People often complain about it. You have to change in the middle. I actually don't think it's as bad as people say it is. But anyway, that is normally 1290 return, $12.90 at the moment, and they're still working on it, but at the moment they are planning over $100. Now, if there is a case for the defense, it is, as Henry says, these cities, these states have spent fortunes. They've spent fortunes adjusting stadiums for FIFA's requirements. They have to cover all of the. Well, don't have to. For some reason, they agreed, they signed up to, in contracts to sign up to all of the public services relating to this, to this World Cup. And the costs of that are extraordinary. When you talk about bringing in often outside agencies from the US Paying police, fire departments, they even have to pay for, like Gianni and Fantino's VIP cars and things like that to and from games. I mean, if you look at the contracts, what they've taken on is insane, Completely insane. But they agreed to it. And now, and this is where Matt's earlier point about doubting that economic impact comes in because the cities are now saying, well, we have to find a way to cover our costs and the way to cover the costs. They have two options. They either relay that even more to their own taxpayers and they're not keen to do that now, particularly when new governors have come in or new politicians have come. In New York, a really good example, there's a new mayor, Zora Mamdani, there's a new governor, Mikey Sherrill, who's come in and just basically said, this isn't good for our taxpayer, so let's transfer the cost to the people who can afford, and I'm paraphrasing here because this is what I'm presuming, their Ogden is the people who can pay thousands of dollars for tickets. I presume they can probably pay 100 bucks for a train as well. And that seems to be the calculation now at this point. And I guess local taxpayers might think, well, actually, you know what, maybe, but maybe there's also a role when we talk about FIFA, $11 billion revenue, three and a half billion budget. Maybe they could step in here, maybe they could help, maybe that could win them some favor. I wouldn't count on it.
- [32:50]
Henry Bushnell
And you know the other reason that they think they can charge this much for a bus or a train? Because FIFA is charging double that for parking at the stadium. So the alternative is $175 for parking at Gillette Stadium in Foxborough and $225 for parking, not even at MetLife Stadium at the mall across the highway from MetLife Stadium.
- [33:13]
Ayo Akimolere
Matt, the bigger one is who is this World cup actually for? Then we're talking these costs. Firstly, you've got to pay for your ticket. Then you've got to pay for your accommodation. And you're paying $95 to get on a bus to get to the football. Who's able to afford this? Because the beauty of the World cup is that whatever nation that's being represented, and not all nations have money, you're able to come and watch your team for this potentially once in a lifetime opportunity.
- [33:38]
Matt Slater
Well, let's not forget like two of us in the UK and two of us in us, right? These are rich nations. And I know there's a, there's a Europause meme, you know, we're doing okay in the uk, all right, we're okay. We're fine. The vast majority of people around the world are doing less well than we are. A lot of the people going, A lot of the nations that have qualified for this tournament are considerably poorer in terms of average earnings towards disposable income. This is totally, this is ridiculous. I mean the numbers we're talking about here are like lifetime earnings. I mean, it's just the annular, you know, I mean just huge ludicrous multiples of what, of what these people would spend on a car, house. I mean this is ridiculous. So it's not for them, I think. Has it ever been for them? I mean, you could argue, well, maybe they've got more important things to do than sport. I don't know, pro sport, maybe that wasn't for them. But this is so expensive that a load more people, Brits, Germans, Spaniards, you name it. A lot of Americans, Canadians, Mexicans. So this, this World cup and it's, and it's, there's a real shame here because Qatar was a World cup for expats. It was, it was, it was for people that were sort of based in the Gulf. Very wealthy people. Russia was a bit of an unusual one in that those that went actually had quite a good time. But not many Europeans went because of appalling relationship between Russia and most of Western Europe. You know, not many UK England fans went. You know, very, very kind of fraught time. Lots of South Americans went, Central Americans went and had a great, had a good time. So it's being, you know, and then of course it was, you know, it was Brazil, it was South Africa. So there's been, there's a bit of kind of pent up, you know, we want to go pent up demand in Europe and I think many European fans, when the U. S. United bid one that won it in, in 2018 in Moscow. Okay, this is going to be good. You know, we, we didn't qualify, England didn't qualify for Nightfall, but it looks pretty good on telly. You know, it looked like fun. We missed it, we missed out the Irish when they had a great time. So, you know, there's a lot of disappointment there. Germany, the euros really good. So we've had, we've had some good euros. I think the next euro is going to be brilliant. And I'm not just saying that because I'm biased. I think, I think, I think I genuinely. We'll have a pot afterwards and you can see if I'm right, I'm wrong. I think we'll put on an amazing euros. So this is going to be a World cup for very rich people. And that's I think where we get into kind of really kind of interesting things about how American Sport has got so expensive. You know, it wasn't that long ago the US and the EU economies were similar size. That's changed. It's to do with US dominance in the technology sector. US having a massive population. US has also got less equal as a society. The 10 top 10%, the people who are going to see Taylor Swift, who are going to NFL, they are willing to pay. So there's various sort of dynamics going on here. It's basically a World cup for them. I think the people that might go there'll be. Don't forget America. There's a lot of expats in the States. So they'll go if they can save up, they've had time. If they're willing to wait, I think the dynamic pricing might work in their favor. You might have to go stand outside and buy your ticket five minutes before kickoff. Now, I'm not sure I'd travel with all the things that Henry's talked about with the flights on that basis. But if I was in the U.S. anyway, I'd take that punt. Maybe it's going to be for those people. It's going to be for the uber rich and for the adventurous and also. Sorry, one more, one last point. Henry said something very interesting actually in your. I think it was your first answer where you were talking about. No, the second one where you're talking about how the categories have changed. This was flagged up quite early by people like the England traveling group. Scots spoke to the Dutch as well. There's another. So many of these sort of cultural differences. So a lot of US sports fans are now kind of finding that paid good money, good money back in the fall and winter for a Cat 1 ticket, Cat 2 ticket, whatever. Thinking they'd be on the sidelines. They're now behind the goal. That's where the most vociferous, loudest, most vocal foreign sports is want to go. They're now being pushed into the corners. So there's going to be all kinds of weird dynamics inside the stadiums themselves, which I think will have an impact on this tournament.
- [38:06]
Henry Bushnell
It's interesting. We say it's going to be a World cup for the uber rich. And in a global sense that's 100% true. The thing that I think a lot of people outside the United States don't fully realize is just that there are a ridiculous amount of rich people in the United States. And we've talked about income inequality growing and the rich getting richer. You know, I looked it up yesterday for households with at least one college graduate, the median household income is over $130,000. And those people can afford to go to pay hundreds of dollars for an NBA game on a random Wednesday night. Right. They can afford to go to NFL games whose tickets, by the way, are often similarly priced to a lot of these World cup games. So it's, it's a World cup for them. So it's not just the top 1% of Americans who can pay for this, it's the top 10, 15, 20%. Right. And that's a lot of people. And then the other thing to, to Matt's that Matt mentioned is. So this is clearly going to limit the amount of people who travel to the United States, especially from lower income countries. But there are a lot of expats or people with, with connections to the vast majority of the 48 nations that will be competing in the World Cup. There are a bunch of Colombian Americans in the United States, Korean America. I know Korea is actually playing in Mexico, but Iranian Americans are actually going to be a great example. There's a massive Iranian population in Los Angeles. You know, assuming they do actually come to the World cup, Egyptian Americans, etc. Etc. You can go on. You can go entirely down the list. Those people are going to pay maybe more than they should to get to the city where their team is playing and to go see their, their country in a, in a World cup, because they do, even when it's a random friendly in the United States. And that in a way is what's going to save this World cup, similar to how it saved the club World cup last summer when, when some of the South American teams and the African teams bought very good atmospheres. I think that is again going to happen this summer and the World cup is going to. I think the atmospheres are still going to be impacted by the price, but maybe not as much as a lot of people would assume.
- [40:14]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Henry, you just reminded me that Canada and Mexico are also hosting this World cup as well. But thanks for joining us, both of you. Matt, Henry, appreciate your time.
- [40:28]
Producer/Host
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- [42:35]
Producer/Host
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akamolere.
- [42:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Adam, let's touch on another World cup related story. You reported that Infantino could potentially ask President Donald Trump to temporarily suspend ice raids across the country during the World Cup. This is really interesting. Can you tell us more?
- [42:56]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, I mean, it sounds a bit mad really, to have an organization such as FIFA headquartered in Switzerland asking about domestic policy in the United States. But what we've reported today is basically that Infantino has been speaking with senior FIFA management, senior executives within his own organization, and they've discussed the possibility of what they are describing as a president to president request, which kind of speaks to, I think, the relationship that Infantino and Trump have developed, you know, obviously most visibly in peace prizes and attending the Board of Peace and attending his inauguration. And there's all sorts of other appearances we could talk about. And some of those executives within FIFA are looking at that and think and saying, can we use this as leverage to make sure that, you know, for this 39 day period, we can get a full moratorium on ice roads during the World Cup? Which I think in theory, you know, even to Infantina's biggest critics, I think would be an extraordinary thing to pull off. However, we don't know. While I'm told Infantino was receptive to it and said that he would make a request, we don't know whether he's actually done it yet. We don't know if he will follow through on it. And we also don't know whether it would ever be countenanced by the White House that they would take on policy merely because the FIFA president ask for it. Now, FIFA have been coming under a lot of pressure from civil society groups, from trade unions who are worried about this. And also even their own member federations, particularly in Europe, have been giving them feedback saying, our fans are worried about this, they're worried about the climate, they're worried about what they saw on the news, particularly around Minnesota earlier in the year where you had American citizens killed during run ins with ice in Minneapolis. And I think that climate, you know, is playing a part. You know, tourism to the states has been down year on year in many areas and things like that. So FIFA are concerned about this. FIFA, I think they would like to test the waters. But although after Minneapolis, you saw Trump come out and say maybe we need a softer touch on some of the way that we are conducting ice enforcement. You know, since then, when there was a temporary government shutdown, you had ICE agents in airports helping to do TSA processing and things like that. So, look, it's a conversation that's taking place within FIFA. Whether it gets escalated to the White House is another thing. And then also what FIFA would like, or some people within FIFA would like, is that it's almost publicly announced this moratorium as a kind of a good news story of some form for FIFA and the White House. But that would also mean the White House accepting that everything that happened before with ice is a bad news story. And I'm not sure they're necessarily going to be that open to that when you think that's basically being one of their key policies and very important to their base yeah.
- [45:56]
Ayo Akimolere
Before we go, I wondered if there was an even, even a segue to. To my next one for you, but let's just go with it. Anyway, you've been working on your latest big scoop. As well as talking about the World cup, you're still talking about the world of football in this one in particular in Italy, you've been talking to Aurelio De Laurentiis, the Napoli owner, discussed his ideas to revolutionize football. Here's a little snippet of the chat now.
- [46:21]
Matt Slater
Year by year, the soccer, we lose the young generation. When we say the match are too long, the stop are too long, that is a problem. Because a young generation, they don't have pace to see a very slow pace. Merchant TV so how long should the game be? I will reduce from 45 minutes each side at 25 minutes. Like in the basket, real time. You cannot see. Stay on the field. Play as an actor.
- [47:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Ah.
- [47:07]
Matt Slater
And no out. I will never use red card and yellow card. I will say you are out five minutes, you are out 20 minutes. Red card. That's make a problem to the team. You know, another thing, too few goal, so it's not spectacular. You must make more gold. And to make more gold, you must change the rules.
- [47:37]
Ayo Akimolere
I mean, look, from the no yellow or red cards to the 25 minute halves, I mean, the guy is quite interested. And look, we've spoken about it on this podcast. De Laurentiis has always had a bit of a reputation for being a bit of a spicy character. What were your impressions of him exactly?
- [47:53]
Adam Crafton
That. I mean, he loves to prod, provoke, come up with ideas. He reminded me of, have you seen the, have you seen Pretty Woman? The Julia Roberts scene where basically just rebukes the snooty saleswoman and sort of says big mistake, you know, and everyone he brings up, he just basically starts it with the problem. They make a big mistake. And that was kind of his answer to everyone that I asked about. Every person in football, every individual, every organization, every league. You know, his ideas are pretty radical. I mean, he wants to cut serie A from 20 teams to 16 teams. He basically said no team without a million fans should even be allowed in Serie A because nobody's watching their games. You know, he wants the Super League to come back. He wants the Super League, but in a different format. But then also on the other side of it, you know, he wants World cup tickets to be cheaper. And he doesn't like, you know, pre season tours that are, you know, out in Australia where fans can't come and watch he wants fans to be able to watch training. So he is this kind of riddle. But he was, you know, he is also kind of a movie mogul, you know, talking to me in a beautiful house in Beverly Hills. And I'm not sure how many conversations he's maybe having with, you know, dyed in the wall Napoli fans near near Mount Vesuvius. But you know, he is, he is reasonably popular with Napoli fans and they've won two of the last three titles in Italy. So he's a lot of fun and some of his ideas will make you laugh, some you will agree with, some you might not like whatsoever and interest to see what people make of him.
- [49:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean, you were saying my life was decent. Look at you sitting in Beverly Hills in a mansion with a movie mogul. Honestly. The interview is available to read now on the Athletic and the full video will be dropping on our YouTube feed soon. All right, Adam, appreciate your time. Also, Matt, who joined us earlier with Henry, thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon.
- [49:56]
Producer/Host
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beal with editing by Paul Iliffe and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company.
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Ayo Akimolere
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Matt Slater
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Ayo Akimolere
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