Nick Harris (3:21)

This is the one, Tom. And it was a. I wouldn't say a criticism necessarily, but it's something that a lot of people pointed out was that, you know, these are big attacking teams, but can they actually defend? And PSG showed a defensive masterclass last night.

Tom Williams (3:34)

Yeah, it was pretty remarkable. A bit like that scene in Jurassic park where they realize to their horror that Velociraptors have figured out how to open doors. You find yourself thinking, well, hang on, we knew that PSG could attack, but turns out they can defend as well. And they figured it out. They figured it out. And we've seen them defending on the front foot an awful lot, you know, pressing very aggressively, but particularly in the second half last night, as Seb says, they just sat very deep and limited this historically prolific Bayern attack to having to exist on crumbs. And I think that will, that will give them a huge amount of confidence going into the final. You know, we've seen both sides of PSG arguably over the two legs against Bayern. I suppose the first leg performance was more reminiscent of what we saw last season. The kind of all out attack, very aggressive, pressing. And then last night we saw a slightly different side to them. And you know, they have generally looked quite solid defensively in the Champions League in recent weeks. 30 win at Chelsea in the second leg in the last 16, didn't concede a goal to Liverpool over two legs in the quarterfinals. And when we're within seconds last night of keeping this buy inside at bay, you know, right up until Kane scored the equalizer at the death. So, yeah, you know, just when you thought PSG couldn't get any scarier, it turns out that maybe actually they could.

Nick Harris (5:04)

Yes, Seb, we'll talk about the handball in just a second, but I just want to quickly follow on from that, Tom, in terms of what this team is shown in terms of maturity, because you think about the big juggernauts in the Champions League. You need to be able to control the ebbs and flows and the emotions of the crowd. By getting an early goal, you completely silence a crowd who think they've got some sort of hope and then you control it in a defensive way, which actually shows a real maturity and a building up of maturity in this tournament for psg.

Tom Williams (5:33)

Yeah, I mean, I feel like an awful lot of the focus prior to the second leg was on whether or not it was going to be a comparably spectacular game to the first. And PSG scoring as early as they did ensured that for them at least, it didn't need to be. It didn't need to be this big, free for all. I wouldn't say that it killed the game, but certainly it gave PSG complete control and it meant that the onus was on Bayern to attack even more. I mean, it already was at kickoff, given that Bayern were trailing and that they were at home. But suddenly they've got a two goal deficit, they have to attack. And I thought what was interesting about PSG's approach last night was the way that they decided not to give Bayern opportunities to press them by just going long an awful lot. I mean, Matvey Safanov very, very few times, you know, rolled the ball out to one of his centre backs or passed the ball out along the floor. He was going along routinely. Very happy to just smash the ball into touch, very happy to just smash an up and under down the middle of the pitch. You know, seed possession back to Bayern, but then basically challenged Bayern to play their way all the way through psg, which ultimately they weren't really capable of doing. So I think there was a bit of an evolution in PSG's approach last night. We tend to think of them as a side who, who have to have the ball and that ordinarily is central to their identity and central to the football that Luis Enrique wants them to play. But actually what we saw last night is they're quite happy to just give up possession and challenge teams to break them down. And that feels quite new.

Nick Harris (7:09)

Bayern did attack a lot, unsuccessfully to a certain degree, Seb, but we have to talk about the handball. Big one in the first half. I mean, there were a few handball shouts from Bayern Munich in many respects, but what has the feedback been from German media in terms of did they get OPSG get away with a handball potentially and Bayern feel hard done by.

Seb Stafford-Blois (7:29)

Initially the reaction was blinding fury. And then like the rest of us, they went scrambling for the law book to find out what the ifrab interpretation of that should be, which is that when the handball is a result of a teammate kicking the ball at another teammate, there's an exemption. So technically the referee got the decision right. A couple of the. The former Bundesliga referees who work in the German media then kind of pivoted to a spirit of the game argument. So they're still pretty angry, I think. Fast forward to this morning and a lot of the focus is actually on the Nuno Mendes incident with Conrad Lima. After the game, Lima had a bit to say. He said, I didn't handle it, or at least I didn't feel like I handled it. He also said, why is the fourth official giving this decision? Because he seemed to indicate that the fourth official gave advice to the referee from the touchline. Because from our viewpoint, initially the referee gave the free kick in Bayern's favor, which would clearly have had to have been a second yellow card for Mendes. It was a very deliberate handball. It's going to be a yellow card. And then he seemed to change his mind based on an instruction that he received from the touchline, which Lima was really, really unhappy about. And so this morning, what we're seeing is a lot of freeze frames, a lot of zooming in, a lot of not even slow motion, micro slow motion replays of the incidents. They're pretty unhappy. And I think, I think a lot of Bayern fans would concede that they didn't reach their best last night. But I still think there'll be a lot of muttering about this refereeing performance for a while yet. It's worth knowing too, that historically, Bayern, there's a little bit of animus towards Nasser Al Khalifi from Bayern fans. You may remember in the, in the group stage last year, they hung a banner decrying his involvement in various UEFA committees. So there's a little bit of a conspiratorial attitude in the air already. This didn't help.

Nick Harris (9:15)

I want to talk about PSG's second Champions League final in the last two seasons. Tom, Luis, Enrique, at the end of the match, basically, I think it was on. The CBS was saying, you know, we need to continue making history in Paris, and to make history in Paris, we need to win the second one in a row. Vincent Kompany was saying, you know, the level of both teams was very, very high. PSG have so much quality. They're probably been the best team in Europe in the last two years. We've played against them five times in a row. We've won twice Lost twice and drawn once. We tried everything. I have to say congratulations to psg, but we go again. I mean, we can't underestimate just how hard it is to do this, to take a team to the final of the Champions League twice you've already won one. You are literally sitting at the point of making history for a club that hasn't historically been successful in Europe completely,

Tom Williams (10:05)

but this has been the objective from the start of the season. You know, you speak to people around psg, people who work with the players, and they have been talking about doing back to back since the start of the season. That has been the prime motivation. And throughout the first half of the

Nick Harris (10:20)

season, French in an English accent. That's my favorite bit of frangle.

Tom Williams (10:25)

Bit of frangle goes a long way.

Ayo Akimolere (10:26)

Frangle.

Seb Stafford-Blois (10:27)

That sounds like when I go on a holiday. Tom, I have to be honest with you.

Tom Williams (10:31)

On beer, seafood plate, it works. It just.

Frank Lampard (10:33)

It just.

Tom Williams (10:34)

It just works. But this has been the guiding principle for them all season long. We get to Budapest and do it again, make history. We've scaled the mountain now at long last. But, you know, that's not enough. If you want to be considered a truly great team, you have to do it again. And there have been times this season when PSG have looked a million miles off Champions League winners in waiting. You look at the way that they finished the league phase, drawing away to Athletic Bilbao, losing away at Sporting, drawing at home to Newcastle in their final fixture, which obliged them to go through the playoffs. And then two really unconvincing performances against Monaco, but they just squeaked through. But all the while, there's been this feeling that none of it mattered, because provided PSG was still in the competition come March, April, then they would be able to start moving through the gears. And that's what we've seen. And, you know, basically, I think from the last half an hour of the first leg against Chelsea in the last 16, when Filip Jurgensen's error enables Vitinha to put PSG ahead in the tie, they have just slipped back into the routine of last season and everything just seems to be coming together in the same way that it did last season. The planets seem to be aligning. You know, obviously they were missing Hakimi last night, but I think he should be okay for the final. Fabian Ruiz is back, fit. Every other player is fit. And firing players who missed games in the first part of the season, notably Ousmane Dembele, Desire Douay, they've actually benefited from that rest. And so once again, PSG seemed to be peaking at exactly the right time.

Ayo Akimolere (12:27)

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Nick Harris (16:24)

What do you make of from the outside looking into what Luis Enrique's done at psg? Because you know, just before this I was looking at the lineup he had when he took over in what, 2023 and you're looking at Mbappe, you're looking at Kayla Navas in that team. You know there's been a fair bit of an overhaul actually to the team we're looking at now with, you know, the likes of Dembele, Kvaratskhelia, as Neves as well. I mean to gut that team, get rid of some of those big faces, bring in a young new squad and don't get me wrong, they spent a lot of money there but actually get a tune out of them. So they're all working together and it looks like it's a well Oiled machine. It's no easy feat.

Seb Stafford-Blois (17:04)

Yeah. And of course it has to go beyond Lewis Enrique too, because you don't gut a team without the say so of the ownership and the executive structure. And I think PSG have been smart enough to recognize that what they were trying to do initially, their bling bling era, as they referred to it, as NASA called it, didn't work. They became a little bit of a punchline in Europe because you get to this stage every single season where something ridiculous would happen, there'd be this collapse, there would be this conversation about work rate, about who is really buying in, about who is playing for themselves rather than the team. Team. I think what Enrique has been able to do, and this is a kind of an external, ignorant perspective really, is that you see some, you know, they're a younger team, the egos aren't as grand as they were. There's still some egos, there's still some very, very big players in that dressing room. And you see how they work collectively. I think that's what my takeaway will be, certainly from the second leg. Also, I think there is. It's a funny thing when you get to this stage of European football, you sometimes see teams who refuse to pivot away from their house style, who refuse to kind of. Who have too much hubris, who won't adapt, who won't concede that maybe it's right to play without the ball. And I think for Lewis Enrique, the game plan was absolutely perfect last night. Right, because they recognized that instead of just counter attacking, counter attacking, forcing their will on Bayern back in a stadium where of course, they won the Champions League almost a year ago, they're able to employ a completely different approach. And that was the key to it. Had they been more open, had they allowed players like Diaz and Elise to be as influential as they were last week, Diaz in particular, who made. I lost counting the amount of diagonal runs he made through the pitch that gave Bayern a kind of. Who changed the momentum of the game and gave Bayern a kind of an impetus that they'd lost last night. You saw all these little moments which indicated that a lot had been learned in that week. Nuno Mendes was supported much better against Alise Alice, who really wasn't as influential either when he went to Mendes, right, or when he cut in field and faced seemingly always three different players knifing in on him and making sure he didn't have any time. I thought Diaz was really well handled, not just by Zy Emery, who came in for Hakimi but you saw Marquinhos coming out to deal with him as kind of the specialist defender in that situation. It was all so impressive. And his story, what Luis Enrique is as a man, that story has been well told, but I think as a tactician, another feather in his cap. So I was enormously impressed and I. I'm at risk of kind of denting your optimism, but I would be very, very wary of them if I was an Arsenal fan, I think.

Nick Harris (19:33)

Yeah, we'll talk about that a little later on. Just before we actually started recording, Tom, I was just obviously scrolling social media just to see if I could catch anything on Luis Enrique and one platform actually posted something from, I think maybe about a year ago and Enrique was cycling and he was singing sort of this Parisian song, I think it's kind of. And it's a psg. And he was basically saying, better times are to come, you know, really almost prophesizing where they are right now. Keen cyclist looks great in Lycra, I must say.

Seb Stafford-Blois (20:05)

I think we're going to have to ask you to sing it. Are you? I think, sorry, mate.

Nick Harris (20:09)

My French or Frenglish is probably not the best at this moment in time, but in fairness, he was almost prophesying that there are going to achieve great things with this team. I'm just wondering from where you've been sitting, Tom, how you've seen him kind of firstly take the helm, but also instill himself at PSG to almost make him the star of the team in many respects.

Tom Williams (20:33)

Yeah. I mean, he has been given more power than any PSG head coach in recent times. You go back to his introductory press conference in the summer of 2023 and Nasser Al Khalifi said he is going to be given all the time he needs. We don't care about results initially. We want him to transform the culture of the club. We want him to bring his style of football to psg. I can't remember him having said something similar about any of the coaches who had preceded Luis Enrique. When the Qataris took over at PSG in 2011, Al Khalifi talked about having a five year plan to win the Champions League. There was this real sense of urgency and I think they got to a point there had been so many false dawns and so many humiliations, they were almost just fed up. And so, you know, the idea behind appointing Luis Enrique was that they were going to change tack quite radically and make sure that, you know, the institution was strong with the coach as the primary symbol of that. And you look at the way that Lionel Messi was punished for going on an unauthorized trip to Saudi Arabia and had to give that slightly peculiar video apology that looked a little bit like he'd been taken hostage. He then gets moved on. In the summer 2023, Neymar gets moved on. Marco Verratti gets moved on. The following season, Luis Enrique's first, it emerges that Kylian Mbappe is not going to sign a new contract. He basically gets dropped from the starting 11 and fades from view. So all the while the coach's authority is being strengthened and the power of the players is being diminished. I mean, one of the funny things about PSG is that you often hear that they've become this team where there are no stars. You know, that the only star is, is the coach. And clearly Luis Enrique is the pivotal character in what has happened at PSG over the last three years. But there are star players everywhere you look. Kvisha Varetskhelia is a star. Ousmane Dembele is the Ballon d' Or Desire. Bradley Barcone Vitinha, I mean, the fullbacks. There are star players everywhere. The difference is they're not mega stars, they're not Messi, they're not Neymar, they're not Mbappe. So you have this narrative that PSG have somehow done this despite not having any kind of high profile players, which is clearly absurd. But again, I think it just speaks to the fact that Luis Enrique, aided by the context of what had come before, has been able to lay down the law, supported by the club, supported by the hierarchy. He's been able to, to establish what the rules are, get everyone pulling in the same direction and, you know, the outcome is that we have this spectacular football team who've already won the Champions League and are now 90 minutes away from doing it again. So I think as much of a lot of it comes down to Luis Enrique, it's also a lot to do with the amount of responsibility that he's been given by the club.

Seb Stafford-Blois (23:32)

It's a really interesting point about the difference between stars and great players, because I remember in the first leg watching Dan from the press box and thinking, yeah, because I'm probably guilty of being one of those, oh, they've got no egos, they've not got any stars anymore, they're just a team. And you look down, you think, well, there are still sort of four or five of the best players in the world in that side right now. And I remember after full time, went last night, walking back to the press room and Chatting to one of my friends and we were just talking about Claret Scalia and just what a good player he is. And I think he's a really good example of someone who doesn't. It doesn't necessarily jump off the page because he has a massive personality and a huge profile when you watch him in person versus when you watch him on the television. Goodness me, just a monster of a player. Just outrageous in the sense of his technique, his ability, the highlights he creates, of course, but the relentlessness of it, it never, ever, ever stops. He's absolutely remarkable. Just a joy of a footballer.

Nick Harris (24:28)

I've got to say, though, we talk about the stars on the field, but also getting them to sing in the same tune, it does take a particular personality. There's a clip that I watched from his team talk, Luis Enrique, when I think PSG were playing Real Sociedad and he literally just clears the table of, you know, bottles, telling them, like, this isn't good enough, like, what? What is this? He rips up the tactics on the board. He does have that authority, but also that fear factor where, you know, what if you don't do what I do? See you later, mate.

Tom Williams (25:03)

Yeah, completely. And, you know, I think you look at the makeup of this PSG squad and physical fitness is one of the fundamental strengths that they have. And Luis Enrique himself, as we've said, is a very fit bloke. You know, he's done triathlons and Ironmans and, you know, cycles everywhere, and he has instilled that in the team as well. And I think perhaps another key element to PSG's success over the last couple of seasons is that they've managed to assemble a group of players who are simultaneously extremely talented, but also super fit and seem to really relish putting in the hard yards. Not that PSG's current success should only ever be used as a stick to beat Kylian Mbappe with, but, you know, Mbappe was held up as an example of a player who had incredible qualities but wasn't prepared to put a shift in. We see that still today at Real Madrid. You can't say that about any of PSG's players. I mean, they are absolute workhorses, all of them, and I think, you know, none more so than the attack, Dembele duet, Clark, Scalia, Bacola. They do so much work off the ball. And so I think talent identification, and that's something that Luis Enrique and Luis Campos, the Sporting Advisor, work on together. That has been crucial because it's one thing to have a vision of the kind of football you want to play. But you can only do that if you have the players that enable you to do that. And you can only play this kind of football with players who ally the technical ability but also the work rate, you know, and that's, that's clearly a massive factor in their success as well.

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Nick Harris (29:36)

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Ayo Akimolere (30:17)

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.

Nick Harris (30:21)

Okay, we need to talk about the final. Obviously Arsenal play PSG in Budapest for the Champions League final. Surely Tom, you are thinking PSG are going to have an absolute rout here. Licking their lips. They can defend, they can attack, they can play in full force.

Seb Stafford-Blois (30:36)

He's trying to create an underdog dynamic here.

Nick Harris (30:39)

Listen, some might call it a siege mentality.

Seb Stafford-Blois (30:41)

Look at him trying to manipulate the media and abuse his privilege here.

Nick Harris (30:47)

They will hear it mate. And there are warriors. They're ready.

Tom Williams (30:50)

It's not a dissimilar matchup to last season's final. Inter went in with this reputation as a very solid team defensively, albeit having had a very open semi final against Barcelona and it was seen a little bit as defense versus attack. I suspect this final will be will be portrayed in a similar way and I think when you get kind of clashing philosophies, it does add a layer of intrigue. I think we can expect that PSG will have most of the ball. I can't imagine that we'll see the PSG that we saw last night, you know, because in an attacking sense, Arsenal do not have the weapons that Bayern do. But then Arsenal are the best defensive team in Europe, so you would back them to be able to withstand some of the pressure that PSG will put them under. And then it'll be a case of, you know, when they do have the ball, what can they do with it? I think you would have to have PSG as favorites given what they did to Bayern, given they're the defending champions. You know, they've now been there and done it. They have this fantastic momentum. But you know, it's a final, it's a one off game. Who knows?

Nick Harris (31:56)

Yeah, I mean, Seb Arsenal, second ever final in the Champions League in the club's history, never won the Champions League. And this is a massive moment of history for this club. We've also seen this team cave under pressure when it comes to major finals. And you know, a pivotal point in previous seasons. Yes, underdogs in this, but do you think they stand a chance in this Champions League final?

Seb Stafford-Blois (32:18)

Of course. Arsenal are an outstanding team. We're just, we're talking about two teams who are absolutely excellent, not a plucky underdog that have locked their way through the knockout rounds and found themselves in the, in the final. Arsenal are primed probably to win the Premier League. I think they have the best defence in Europe. I would also say, and I'd be interested to see what Tom thinks about this. The only PSG player I have a doubt about is the goalkeeper, Safonov, who I don't know very much.

Nick Harris (32:43)

He was very good last night though. Really sorry.

Seb Stafford-Blois (32:45)

He was okay. I'm not sure he had to do all that much. I just. When I compare him to Raya, who I, who I value probably as the best currently informed, the best in this position anywhere in Europe. I'm a huge Raya fan. I think he's outstanding. You just wonder sometimes when. I mean, how many times have we seen finals decided by small moments? And that tends to be the trend rather than. Finals don't really get decided by narratives, moments, set pieces, these kind of things, they matter, generally speaking. I wonder whether that's an advantage for Arsenal. I'm a Spurs fan, so I'd love to talk about Arsenal. Buckley under pressure. I think that's overdone as a narrative. I think that's used as a stick to beat them with. I think that's a kind of a social media tool to kind of have fun with Arsenal fans. I don't think it stacks up. I also don't think what happened at Wembley a few weeks ago has any relevance to an occasion like a Champions League final because they're so different, the magnitude of the occasion is completely different. So let's see. But Arsenal, of course, Arsenal have a chance. And listen, no, Bayern have greater weapons. They theoretically posed a greater threat to that PSG defense. We're not talking about a team that's being coached by Hellenia Herrera though. This is not a. A negative football team that's absolutely impervious to any sort of attacking football. They will give you a chance. And Bukayo, Saka, Martin Odegaard, Joaquares, Kai Havertz, if he's fit. These are quality, quality attacking players. Leandro Trossard, Noni Madueke. It's not as if Arsenal are coming in unequipped, so absolutely, it's actually a really interesting final. I think when I. Last year's matchup was a little bit uneven and I never really saw PSG winning 5 nil, but I would have been surprised had they not won. I think this is more of a coin flip actually this time around.

Nick Harris (34:27)

Tom. Psg, on the other hand, looking to make history. Back to back Champions League wins. Enrique is reported to be negotiating a new deal. Tim Spears has written for the Athletic that the opportunity is now there to create a dynasty. Do you agree?

Tom Williams (34:43)

Absolutely. And that is the motivation of the entire club coach, first and foremost, but also the players. You look at the age profile in that squad and it remains a very young squad. I mean, I think we forget that because we've now seen this team cutting elegant swathes through the best of European football for the last three seasons, but they've got a very young average age and apart from Fabian Ruiz and Marquinhos, they're all going to be around for a lot longer. And that's not to say that Fabian Ruiz and Marquinhos are necessarily on their way out, but they're the only ones who are, who are 30 or the wrong side of 30. So you know that that is the motivation and we know how phenomenally difficult it is to successfully defend the Champions League title. Pep Guardiola's Barcelona never managed it. Now the only team that has done it in the 21st century was was Zinedine Zidane's Real Madrid. So this is an opportunity to make history. And you know, you don't get any sense that things are at risk of suddenly falling apart. I mean, you know, there were times this season when I looked at PSG on the pitch and I just couldn't understand why they weren't better. Because you think it's the Exact same team as last season with the exact same coach. Playing this kind of football must be so much fun. And you get that sense when you watch psg. You know, why would you not want to be a part of that as a player or as a coach? So, yeah, that, you know, the objective is to try and build some kind of legacy, to try and create a dynasty. And that has been the case right from the start of the season.

Nick Harris (36:22)

Whether they become a dynasty also depends on whether or not Enrique stays at PSG. In the last 10 years, has seen, you know, some of the best coaches in world football work in the Premier League, other than Pep Guardiola. Enrique is the only other manager to win a treble with two different clubs. Obviously, we've seen Guardiola in the Premier League, Club Ancelotti, Conte, Tuchel and also Pochettino in many respects. I was going to ask, actually, is Luis Enrique the one that got away from the Premier League, gents, but also, is the Premier League the raison d' etre for any coach?

Seb Stafford-Blois (36:58)

Really nice, you know, nice.

Nick Harris (37:00)

I'm being serious. I know I threw the French in

Seb Stafford-Blois (37:02)

there, but it was your accent I'm trying. Hey, no tip of the hat to you, monsieur. No. I think we've all developed this tendency to see the Premier League as the end of the road. I think what's important is you need to put yourself in a coach's perspective, particularly if you're coaching a team like Paris Saint Germain. Right? You live in Paris, you get to coach some of the very best footballers in world football. You also seem to have, and Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, a really cooperative relationship with the executives above you. Everybody buys into your vision, you buy into theirs. The situation is conducive to success. So now, compare that to the Premier League and some of the situations that exist there at the moment. You've got footballing executives and recruiters at odds with head coaches. You've got legacy, incredibly successful coaches potentially moving towards the end of their career and having to be succeeded by. If you're going to Manchester City to succeed Pep Guardiola, good luck in a few years, whenever that. That moment occurs. You've got problems at Tottenham. You've got Arsenal, who seem very, very secure under Mikel Arteta. You've got Manchester United, who seem to still be developing the infrastructure to make their way back properly, who still don't really know what they are and what their philosophy is. So what are you leaving a club like Paris Saint Germain for? And the same question applies to Vincent Kompany. Because during this season I've been asked several times, oh, surely Premier League now, right, there's that very particular Premier League exceptionalism at work here whereby it's almost. It only matters when it happens here. And I just don't agree with that. And I also don't agree that the only way you can have a productive career or the only way that you can be seen as having a successful career is if you've gone through England and won something there. I just don't buy that Luis Enrique

Tom Williams (38:47)

is on the verge of greatness. He's already proven that he is one of the great coaches of his generation in winning the Champions League last season and in doing it in the way that he did. If he wins another Champions League and then say he wins a third, he's getting into the Guardiola, Arrigo, Sacchi, Sir Alex Ferguson, all time greats conversation. He has everything that he needs at psg, complete support from the club and the hierarchy, complete buy in from this exceptional group of players and has transformed a club that as recently as four or five years ago was seen as a bit of a laughingstock into this beacon for the fundamental values of team sport. So you can understand exactly why he's happy to stick around. And the Premier League, I think, appeals to most elite coaches. It is seen as the ultimate proving ground in many ways. But that's not to say it's the only place where you can achieve success. And as Seb says, it's a league where reputations get chewed up pretty quickly sometimes.

Nick Harris (39:55)

Right. I know you've got to go, Seb, but it did make me think, you know, when Vincent Kompany left the Premier League after Burnley going down, everyone was like, oh, I can't believe it. See, it does, it's not working. And then here he goes off to Bayern Munich doing some absolutely brilliant things with this team. So, yeah, thanks for joining us as per usual and we'll catch you soon, sir.

Seb Stafford-Blois (40:12)

Thanks, Ay,

Nick Harris (40:15)

yeah. Now before you go, Tom, and talking of a manager who will be in the Premier League actually next season, Frank Lampard has been speaking with the Athletics. Tom Burrows, after winning promotion with Coventry City. He's been discussing the perception of British managers. Let's have a listen.

Frank Lampard (40:31)

I think there's a general misconception with probably specifically British managers that we get jobs because of our playing careers. We go and probably cheerleader group or try and create a vibe like the old days that we might have had and we just go, gordon, that's out you go and play. And I don't think there's a lot of great, very, very good British coaches out there that are doing great work. And I think they have to fight even harder sometimes to be appreciated as good coaches. So I don't know the perception with me. I'm hoping that if people will analyze the work we've done this year, they won't just say, oh, look, Frank got the team in a really good place. They all get on and there's great spirit that doesn't win you everything. You have to be tactically on point. You have to be clear with the players they have of what you're trying to do. So, you know, I don't want to ask people to think that of me. I just have to get on with my work. And I think hopefully people will recognize British coaches for being sound, clever, smart tactically and not just because you had a playing career. That's why you got it.

Nick Harris (41:29)

Yeah, he makes a really good point there. Tom. Do you think there is a bias when it comes to British managers?

Tom Williams (41:34)

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that British coaches aren't particularly fashionable at the moment in the Premier League. There's a bit of a craze for, for Spanish coaches, notably Basque coaches, Portuguese coaches, German coaches, and you know, there aren't that many homegrown coaches currently working in the Premier League. And, and that can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in that club owners see coaches from a particular country succeeding elsewhere and don't see coaches from, from Britain succeeding. And so, you know, they're inclined to follow the same kind of trend. It's a very interesting topic, particularly with regard to, you know, high profile former players. I think there has sometimes been a feeling that high profile former Premier League players aren't as willing to kind of put in the hard yards as their, their continental counterparts. You know, John Terry is one example that comes to mind. Basically, I am only going to accept one of the top jobs because I know I'm good enough. I mean, John Terry thankfully is not representative of the entire British coaching class. But you know, that is the kind of attitude that has sometimes been attributed to that group of coaches. And I think Lampard, to his credit, has really kind of bucked that trend in that, you know, he started out at championship level, he had experiences in the Premier League that didn't work out. And whereas a lot of coaches would have thought, well, I've given it a go, it's not worked out, you know, I'll just go into punditry as a lot of his contemporaries have. He decided to, you know, to get another job in the Championship and has, you know, performed wonders with with Coventry City. But you know, you look at some of the coaches we've been talking about today. Luis Enrique spent three years coaching Barcelona reserves. That's three years largely out of the spotlight, just learning the trade. And you know, I wouldn't want to suggest that British coaches aren't prepared to do that, but I wonder whether there is quite the same appetite from some of those players who've played at the very highest level to accept the need to undergo a kind of coaching apprenticeship. But again, you know, fair play to Lampard for bucking the trend because he took a big reputational risk in taking on the Coventry job and it's worked out brilliantly for him and the club.

Nick Harris (43:52)

All right, head over to the Athletic to check out more on Tom's interview with Frank Lampard. Tom, appreciate your time and also Seb for joining us earlier. The Champions League final is set up PSG versus Arsenal in Budapest. Who wins that one? Can't wait. We'll catch you soon.

Ayo Akimolere (44:11)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale with editing by Paul Iliff and Nick Thompson. The executive producer is Adey Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company Production.

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