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- [00:00]
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- [01:34]
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Football Analyst
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- [01:45]
Football Analyst
Dip now at McDonald's.
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- [02:22]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:28]
IO Akimullere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, IO Akimullere. Despite running Liverpool close, it was a familiar feeling for David Moyes Diaz.
- [02:37]
Shopify Advertiser
Sweet touch.
- [02:43]
IO Akimullere
Through our Derby night defeat to Liverpool makes it 22 visits to Anfield without tasting victory as a manager, but with upshoots of encouragement and the move to their new stadium on the horizon, do Everton have reasons to be optimistic? Here with us today we have our Everton correspondent Paddy Boylan as well as our senior football writer Ollie K. Paddy Everton's final trip to Anfield before the big move to the massive shiny new stadium on the waterfront. But how difficult was that one to take especially given, you know, the first half display from Everton.
- [03:23]
Football Analyst
Yeah, it's funny, it felt like a bit of a damp squib from an Everton perspective. You see the celebrations at the end and it's clearly a seminal moment in Liverpool's title charge. But it felt like a night for them more than for Everton. I think when you look at Moiseside's position in the table you kind of get a sense that they're sort of safe and they've not got as much to play for. So Derby defeats will always be disappointing and always come as a blow, particularly on Merseyside where bragging rights are really important. But I kind of get the sense that this doesn't hurt quite as much because Everton fans are pretty safe in the knowledge that things are slowly changing, that there is potentially a brighter future ahead and they're not going to spend the last few months of the season worrying as they have done now for three or four years, that this might be the year that they actually do go down to the championship.
- [04:13]
IO Akimullere
Oli Liverpool reopened their 12 point lead at the top of the table. We're going to go into some of the incidents that happened in the game in just a second. But from Liverpool's perspective, Oli, you know what was key to them getting the jump done at Anfield because it was a tight game.
- [04:29]
McDonald's Advertiser
It was definitely a tight game. But I would say even in the first half where Liverpool conceded a couple of decent opportunities on, on, on the break and Beto was, was proving a handful and I think Everton were would probably have been happy with the way that game was playing. It felt a lot more like a game being played on Liverpool's terms rather than the previous two derbies which were at Goodison which were very much played on Everton's terms and Everton turned them into the, the scrap and the physical game that, that they wanted it to be. Liverpool were totally knocked out of their stride on those two occasions. I thought Liverpool's performance at Goodison a few weeks ago was probably one of their worst of the season and they were. Although it was Everton who got the last minute equalizer. You would Say Everton probably deserved the win more than Liverpool did in that game. Whereas this was very much game played on Liverpool's terms for most of. Most of the time they. They were building up a lot of possession deep in Everton territory, which wasn't the case a few weeks back at Goodison. And yeah, although it was just the one goal, it felt like when came, it felt like Liverpool's momentum and the sort of buildup of pressure in the sort of five, ten minutes before that, it felt like it was. It was going to break Evans resistance. And yeah, it was. It was a bit of quality from Diogo Jota that did it. But yeah, it felt like that was coming. Whereas perhaps the goals they scored in the derby at Goodison felt like isolated attacks really. So it was, it was much more a game played on Liverpool's terms. Possession, intensity, pressure.
- [05:53]
IO Akimullere
Yeah, Paddy. And actually Ollie, please follow on. I just want to start with the Everton perspective, especially on the. Some of the incidents that happened match. James Tarkovsky's tackle on Mac Allister and also I guess the other one, Jordan Pickford's tackle on Darwin Nunes, which is another one. But let's start with the main one, the major talking point from that one. James Tarzkowski, in my eyes was very lucky to stay on the field, Patrick.
- [06:17]
Football Analyst
Yeah, and in my eyes too. And certainly if we, if we listen to the briefings from PJ Mol this morning, in their eyes as well. I do think Tarkovsky was lucky to stay on the pitch. He apologises to Mac Allister after the game and obviously is right to do so. And I think in his rationale, when he was speaking to reporters, he spoke of feeling that Mac Allister was actually going to go into the challenge as well in a similar way. So that's maybe why there was some extra venom in it. But he definitely left one in. He won the ball and then very deliberately tried to make contact with the player and take him out. I just found it profoundly unnecessary given where it was on the pitch. I mean, you can even if you remove the potential for Everton to be down to 10 men. He also gives Liverpool a free kick right on the edge of the box in a prime shooting position. So certainly that's one where Everton did get very, very fortunate. I don't think there's any question about that. It was funny from my perspective. We were in the media room after the game waiting for the managers to come through. We're all watching Moyes speaking to sky, the broadcasters, after the game, and at that point he's talking about how he thought it was a good challenge and firm but fair kind of approach. Old school and yeah, I think we should all get on board on that with that kind of approach. And by the time he filters through to us about 15 minutes later, he's changed his tune.
- [07:38]
McDonald's Advertiser
I thought it was a brilliant tackle, but since I've seen it and I've come back in, I think that we.
- [07:43]
Football Analyst
Could have been lucky that he didn't.
- [07:44]
McDonald's Advertiser
Get a red because it looked high. But it depends what era you want to play your football and what's your football in. To me I thought at the time it looked a brilliant, brilliant tackle at first and I think it probably was. It was a follow through which looked worse.
- [07:58]
Football Analyst
He was also very disappointed with the nature of Liverpool's goal and how that came about. And there we probably have to get into very specific analysis of the rules as they are and maybe what they should be. So Luis Diaz is in an offside position in the buildup to Diego Jota's winner. Pjmoel's guidance is that he doesn't make a deliberate play at the ball and he doesn't harm James Tarkovsky's attempt to play the ball either. And that's why it was wasn't called as, as an offside. But it seems to me as though there needs to be some provision in the rules for a moment where a defender sort of has to play the ball because they know somebody's behind them. And that is, if we're being honest, impacting play, it is affecting the outcome. Diaz very soon after claims the assist for Jota's goal. So that kind of rubs salt in the wounds for Everton a little bit. Loads of controversial decisions as I think we have in every single Merseyside Derby that I can remember. I still hear people talking about Michael Oliver's performance in February's game. Or we can go much further back.
- [09:01]
McDonald's Advertiser
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- [09:03]
IO Akimullere
Yeah, now we're going vintage. There we go.
- [09:06]
Football Analyst
This is another one that will rumble on, that will be in. In folklore ultimately if we strip it all away. I think Liverpool did just about deserve the win. Everton created chances, but they were sporadic and on the counter attack. And in those moments where they really needed to show their quality in that final pass or in that shot like where Beto took, they came up short and Liverpool didn't. And that's ultimately why Liverpool deserved their win.
- [09:31]
IO Akimullere
I've got to say, Oli, it feels like especially in football, you get what I call football justice. Liverpool fans probably screaming that Gent Tarkowski shouldn't be on the field. But then there's a contentious offside which leads to a Liverpool goal. They're thinking, yeah, there you go, we got our justice, we deserve that one.
- [09:45]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, it doesn't always work out that way, does it? And it's. David Moyes in his, in his initial post match interview was saying, oh well don't, don't equate that to that because they were two separate kind of incidents. He, he felt that the, the offside was very straightforward and initially at least seemed to suggest that the, the Tarkovsky Challenge was one that perhaps was more debatable. I mean I think probably most people would see it more, more the other way around. I thought the Tarkovsky Challenge was one of the worst challenges I've seen in yeah. In the league this season. And it's, and it's the kind of thing that it reminded me of a couple of Steven Gerrard challenges in derbies sort of 20, 25 years ago, some of which he got sent off for, some of which he didn't. But it was that. It was that kind of old school Derby Day challenge. David Moyes is definitely right about that. But it's the kind of thing that would have been a fair challenge in the 80s, would probably have been a foul in the 90s, would probably have been a yellow stroke red card in the 2010s and is just the most blatant red card. And I thought it was remarkable, astonishing that it wasn't given first of all by the referee on the pitch and then even more remarkable that the var. I think it was Paul Tierney didn't give it. I thought it was just bizarre. But one thing that struck me actually was that Liverpool's players didn't swarm around the referee and immediately be up in arms and clamor. And I like the fact that they didn't. But I could almost imagine if it was Jordan Henderson being Liverpool captain or Jamie Carragher was there, et cetera, you'd have players swarming around the referee demanding a, demanding a red card. I like the fact they didn't. But you know, sometimes you get people suggesting that that's what you should do in those circumstances. I, I don't think you should but, but I think it might have made more of an impact on the referee if there'd been that immediate swarm around him saying look, this is, this is a disgrace.
- [11:32]
IO Akimullere
Okay, well let's move on because next we'll assess the impact of David Moyes on his returner to the blue half. Of Merseyside.
- [11:40]
McDonald's Advertiser
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- [11:46]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
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- [12:50]
Football Analyst
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- [13:01]
Football Analyst
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- [13:21]
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- [14:19]
IO Akimullere
Okay listeners, we want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill out a quick survey about you and your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com athletic survey25 three lucky entries will win £100 or dollars worth of Amazon vouchers as well. So whether you're a longtime Listener or A1, we want your feedback. Go to TheAthletic.com Athletic Survey 25. That's TheAthletic.com athletic survey 25. The link is also in our episode description. Right, let's get back to the podcast. Paddy ahead of the visit to Anfield. You wrote on the Athletic about the way in which David Moyes has transformed Everton in 10 games and coming up into this match. I think Everton were unbeaten in last nine matches and I've got to say a lot of those unbeatens were draws. But inevitably Everton were in a good state coming into this match. They're currently, what, 14 points off relegation right now, it's fair to say, like, you know, David Moyes has come in and for the foreseeable job done right.
- [15:27]
Football Analyst
Yeah, I mean it's, it's remarkable the extent of the, of the turnaround in such a short space of time. He came in in January after Shaun Dyche left and after his first game against Aston Villa which ended in the defeat. He came through to us in the, in the press conference room and he was ashen faced. He was talking about the sheer scale of the job that awaited and he said, I'm no magician. This can't be fixed overnight. Well, more or less it has actually been fixed overnight. When you look at Everton's position for this season in the league table, these have had to be sticking plaster solutions because I think there's a general admission that particularly in forward areas, Everton's squad is barely fit for purpose in the Premier League. Moyes is doing whatever he can with short term fixes to get them over the line into that new stadium and into what will have to be a massive summer rebuild. But there's a few things to draw on here. The first is the sense of reassurance to everyone at the club, particularly those who were there in his first spell that Moyes return has given. You could just see immediately when Dyche went and Moyes came in, it was fresh ideas, fresh perspective and just about everything seemed to lift. I went into his first press conference as Everton manager at the training ground, Finch Farm, and for the first time in about three, four months, I'd seen people smile. So that kind of sense of assurance, it's almost like getting your comfort blanket back that you have over winter and that you get used to and that gets you through the cold, harsh winter. He's made changes, but I wouldn't say he's completely overhauled Dyche's system. It's been tweaks here or there, kind of evolution rather than revolution. And it's certainly the case that he's given these players a lot more confidence to go out and express themselves in an attacking sense. They've looked much more potent beyond the Anfield game in the final third. So, I mean, it's remarkable what he's done, really. I mean, full credit to him. There are a lot of draws in there, but they're what I describe as good draws where Everton have gone toe to toe with the opposition. And if you look at the one away at Brentford, for example, Beto misses three one on ones. Even last night in the defeat, Beto goes through biggest chance in the game arguably. And if he scores, the game may well look different at the end. So, I mean these are good positive signs when we all know that the resource is not up to scratch for Moes.
- [17:43]
IO Akimullere
Yeah, Ollie, this could have also gone the other way really in terms of it not working. But I also wonder, based on the journey David Moyce has been on since he left Everton, you're looking at Manchester United, Sociedad, Sunderland, two stints at West Ham, those street smarts that he's picked up in the football world surely have made him a little bit more equipped to carry the weight of this moment for Everton. You know, he's been there, he's done that, he's had so many setbacks actually. He's home finally to a certain degree and actually he can cut out all that noise because he's been here before.
- [18:18]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah. If I just thinking when Paddy was talking then I was just thinking about, I mean, I was reporting on everton back in 2002 when he arrived there and then as well, sort of late 90s, early 2000s, Everton was just miserable, totally miserable place. I mean, Walter Smith, probably similar in some ways to Sean Dyche, had done a job just to keep the club afloat basically, but it wasn't really going anywhere. They were threatened with relegation late in 2001, 2002 when Moyes came in from Preston and completely different stage of his career. He was the youngest manager in the Premier League then, he's the oldest manager in the Premier League now. And he came in and he just lifted the place, electrified it straight away. I was there at press conference where he talked about being the people's club and it just seemed to light something within the fan base. And they stopped home game against Fulham a couple of days later and they were ahead after 30 seconds or something and it feels slightly similar now in that Everton have been through this sort of doldrums period of just sort of almost like circling the drain, looking like a team, looking like a club relegation waiting to happen. And he's just come in and he's lifted it now. Sean Dyche lifted it when he came in, Lampard lifted it when he came in, Benitez initial impact lifted it. But it has felt for three, four, five years, really, that Everton are just sort of frantically treading water, trying to keep afloat, trying to get to that point where they're ready for the new stadium and that's finally on the horizon. And it feels really appropriate that it's David Moyes who probably put a lot of the building blocks in place for the. The modern Everton. And I think some of those building blocks were kind of neglected or, you know, things were falling apart a bit by the time he came back or over the last five years, which are more to do with ownership issues than anything else. But, yeah, Moyes is back now and he just seems to have a connection with the club. He has done for the moment he arrived, and I think Everton fans probably missed him more and more the longer he was away. I think Moyes is a better fit for Everton than any of the other managers they've had since. They've all. All had the moments. Not. None of them have been a complete disaster, none of them deserve to be ridiculed. But I think they've finally got the right man in charge. And I think he. He would say that he's a much smarter manager, more experienced manager than the one who left nearly 12 years ago. And I think sometimes those kind of difficult experiences and being sacked and sometimes that can really break a manager, or particularly at Sunderland. Sunderland was the one which was just where you thought, oh, he's. He looks so damaged and bruised by the Man United experience. But I think the job he did at West Ham on both. Both spells was really, really good. And yeah, I think he's approaching the Everton job like somebody who is thinking not just, you know, the next 18 months or something, but that he can lead them into a totally new era at the new stadium.
- [21:20]
Football Analyst
The irony of basically all of what Oli has said there is that it was Moyes initially in the box seat before Ancelotti came back. He was effectively verbally offered the position before Ancelotti became available after he was sacked by Napoli. And those things turned around really, really quickly. And he's been very open in saying that on two or three different occasions, he was really close to coming back. So it's a surprise it's happened before now. And also a little bit odd how things work out. Like it was always assumed that his relationship with Bill Kenright, the chairman that passed away last year, would be the thing that would bring him back to Everton. And yet here we are with a new era under American ownership and he's back at Goodison for the final season. This to me seems, as Oli has pointed out, very similar to the role he inherited first time at Goodison, but also has echoes of what he did at West Ham, where they were when he took over there, particularly first time around. And what I get is this sense that he's basically the man for the here and now, this role, rebuilding a club that has fallen on hard times. It's basically tailor made for David Moyes. There's a huge task ahead, a really massive task ahead. The buildup to the derby was dominated by talk of the disparity in quality and resources between the two Merseyside clubs. And he himself said before the game that he felt that the gap was as big maybe as it has ever been in his opinion. Now that doesn't really bear out statistically. There are some other examples where the gap has actually been greater. But Everton and Liverpool are nowhere near relative equals right now. And I think that was quite clear even in the way Everton approached Wednesday night's game. It was very much as I wrote in my match piece. They'd accepted their inferiority and they were trying to feed off the scraps that they got. They weren't going at this as they did in later on in Moyes first spell. They weren't going at this as relative equals where they were looking to match Liverpool in every department. That's going to take a good while. And that's the thing that I think Moyes has to get used to. He's going to have to more or less try and get the club back ironically to the position that he left it in over a decade ago.
- [23:32]
IO Akimullere
So fascinating, Paddy. And very quickly, you know, just thinking, you know, when Oli was speaking and also when you were just speaking there in terms of the club he's inherited right now and back those street smarts from several setbacks in different clubs. You know, Everton are struggling financially. Let's, let's not beat around the bush. And in a way that sometimes I looked at Sean Dyche and he just felt like Sean Dutch is like, well what can I do? David Moyes is kind of taking it on his shoulders and being like, okay, this is where we are, let's be pragmatic, let's set a solid foundation, then we can look forward. But that takes a manager who's been, who's done the round in very, in various guises, surely.
- [24:08]
Football Analyst
Yeah, it does, absolutely. And I actually think that Moises is in a much more favorable position than Dyche ever was at Everton. If you look at what Dyche had to contend with in terms of points deductions and ownership crises, and even down to what he was able to spend versus what he had to sell, that was a really remarkable period for the club financially and he weathered some real storms there. Will always deserve credit for that. That's one thing for me that's absolutely certain. Moyes, actually, he may have timed this just right because he's inheriting a club that is just starting to tick upwards again. There is going to be money there this summer. There has to be because so many players are out of contract and they, they have new ownership. So I think he does in many ways, certainly beyond the summer, he will, he will have inherited much more favorable circumstances, much more favorable situation. I also think, going back to something else, Ali said he's a different manager now even to the one that managed Manchester United, and I think he's better for all of those experiences.
- [25:10]
IO Akimullere
I think so, yeah.
- [25:12]
Football Analyst
One of the things that commonly came back from his time at Old Trafford was the extent to which the job seemed to stifle him, even in his, let's say, his media engagements, which are clearly not the most important thing of football management, but they are a factor. They are something that we need to look at and consider the more he starts, come back to Everton, almost has no inhibitions, much more candid, much more, I would say, secure in his own skin. And one of the things that commonly comes back when you speak to people at the club who were familiar with this first spell is that they think he's a better manager, but b think he's developed much better people skills and I think that stands him in really good stead because what Everton need right now is somebody to just tell them everything's going to be all right.
- [25:55]
IO Akimullere
Yeah. What do you think, Ollie, as someone to be reassured but also I guess in that communication level someone is actually really good at man managing to best out of a team that kind of feel like they're licking their wounds a little bit?
- [26:08]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, I, I, I think in terms of what Paddy was saying, if you look at what Everton's values are, what do Everton fans want to see in their team and they want to see. You know I, I think Everton have gone through a kind of bit of an identity crisis in the, in the 12 years since, since Moyes left and there was a period where under Martinez when he first came in where they were playing brilliant football and, and look really good and look. But they, they've kind of tried to go in different directions at various points. Martinez petered out very quickly. Kuman Allardyce, Ronald Kuhlman. Yes, Silver.
- [26:43]
IO Akimullere
Been from a few haven't they buddy?
- [26:44]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, it's been sort of flip flopping style wise and he's kind of come back into a, A squad which is much more I would say David Moyes like in terms of. It's, it's a hard working, it's really, it's a really, really honest squad. There's no shirkers, there's no prima donna's in that squad and he will want to improve it without question of this transfer window and he'll want bring more quality in. But I think Everton fans probably having gone around the houses with these various managers are probably clearer than ever on what they want from a team. No Everton fan is demanding winning a trophy next season or winning a, or getting top four or top six or whatever. But they probably like what they're seeing from David Moyes Everton and it's everybody pulling in the same direction and it's everybody giving 100% and it's not necessarily necessarily trying to mirror what's happening style wise at other teams. It's not necessarily trying to dominate possession for minutes at a time. That it's probably faster and more direct than a lot of clubs want it. And David Moyes is probably one of the more pragmatic managers in the Premier League. He's one of one, one of the managers who probably will always put results first before style and, and that is, you know, I say that in a good way because there are managers being criticized for doing the opposite. So I feel there's a really good match there both in terms of what he brings but also some of the players he's working with and the actual challenge that lies ahead. I think the challenge of actually rebuilding the squad this summer is a big one because I think you can look at some of those contracts that are expiring and think wow, that's going to be a relief that that contract's coming to an end and. But there are an awful lot of players they need to bring in and they will be younger, hungrier players in the main. But it's yeah, it's quite, it's quite a rebuilding job and it's an exciting one too because I think they've probably got a clearer vision now. Of what. Of what they want to be.
- [28:38]
IO Akimullere
Okay, well, next we'll look ahead to the summer and Everton's move to their new stadium.
- [28:45]
McDonald's Advertiser
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamolere.
- [28:51]
Instacart Advertiser
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- [29:47]
McDonald's Advertiser
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamalero.
- [29:54]
IO Akimullere
Paddy. Big summer ahead in your eyes. How big a summer is this for Everton? You know, with that move to the new stadium, dare I say I'm looking out my window right now, the sun is shining. Is there hope in the not too distant future for Everton? But also, you know, how much of that hope is going to be dictated by their finances? You know, we've already alluded to the fact that Everton had what, 53.2 million loss for the year to, to June 24th. But you're, you're saying now though that it looks like in the summer, not saying they're going to be flush, but there might be some decent money to spend.
- [30:26]
Football Analyst
Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at the summer. The first is that it's quite a daunting task to completely overhaul the squad. The second is to say that this has actually been a really underperforming group of players now for a long period of time. We know the squad is not fit for purpose so it should actually excite those in charge that they get this, I suppose, once in a lifetime opportunity to effectively rebuild the squad. It's going to be a fascinating exercise in squad building and it's been put to me before now that we very rarely see this With Premier League clubs. By that I mean established Premier League clubs. You may get an Ipswich or a Nottingham Forest come up. I know that they have to buy 13 or 14 players just to compete, but how many established Premier League teams like Everton undergo this amount of upheaval in potentially one window? I can't really think of many cases, if any at all. And the reason for that, as we go back to time and time again, is this idea that Everton have had one window after another in which they've just had to get by financially. And that's meant that even this season they've got five loan players on the books, which is right up towards the top of the league. Those sticking plaster solutions we mentioned earlier. So I think they will look at this as an opportunity and certainly an opportunity because A, they're going into the new stadium, but B, have very wealthy new owners with personal fortunes up at around US$10 billion. What I think that means is that while there are some harsh realities, particularly before June 30th in terms of PSR and where Everton are in terms of residual losses and wiggle room beyond that deadline, they move into a different PSR cycle where actually they're not really to the same extent inhibited by some of those things. They enter a new window, they have stadium revenues, new stadium revenues to rely on 13,000 more seats, potential kind of increased commercial deals. So I see this window as being a window in two parts. I think there'll be a pre June 30th as there is for many Premier League clubs right now because of PSR and certainly for Everton post June 30th, where they should do the majority of their business. And that's where I think we will start to see some of the spending power from the ownership, the freaking group.
- [32:45]
IO Akimullere
Very quickly on that, Paddy. You know you still got 15 players out of contract this summer. I mean, sporting director structure. I mean there's a lot of that still to take place as well in a very short period of time, you know, for that to happen. Who's helping Moyes do this? You know what I mean? Like what does that even look like?
- [33:01]
Football Analyst
Yeah, well, what we have to remember is that, that there are 15 players out of contract and while some of them will almost certainly depart those players on the periphery that are by my account earning far too much money in some cases, you've also got key players that were in the team last night. So Idrissa Gay, who has been Everton's player of the season in my book, 34 years of age, but still doing A tremendous job. Abdullah Decore is another. He played in the number 10 role last night.
- [33:29]
IO Akimullere
Calvert Lewin, who's injured but big player for Everton.
- [33:33]
Football Analyst
Yeah. Who's been the first choice, number nine now for five, six years. Time is really of the essence there because they are very close to becoming free agents and yet Everton are in by all accounts, a transitional period. They have David Moyes at the helm, but we all know now that the director of football, Kevin Thelwell, will leave when his contract expires at the end of the season. Because of that situation while he remains at the club, he can't really make decisions for the future, can he, given what's going to happen next. They have an incoming CEO in Angus Kinnear from Leeds United who will only join after the championship season has finished for Leeds. And beyond that, they're still in the process of putting the new structure in place below Kinnear and Moyes. A lot of those hires will come before the end of the season. I'm talking, but they're not there just yet. So I think what it means for now is that actually you've got a situation in which while some people will be able to chip in and Kinnear will be able to have his say and the owners will have their say, it's very much David Moyes ship.
- [34:36]
IO Akimullere
Do you know what, Ollie? There's no, I think there's no better person to, to sort of carry this one than David Moyes again because I talk about street smarts. I mean this is old school managerial kind of conversation. Manager speaks to owners. This is who I want. Let's get him on the field. It kind of feels like that an old school idea of what football used to be and David Moyes has gone through the ages and is still here to stay.
- [34:59]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, absolutely. The sport director situation is fascinating. Do you think they'll. Are they going to a higher one, Paddy?
- [35:06]
Football Analyst
So they're moving away from that model and let's be honest, they're swimming against the tide there.
- [35:11]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I thought Thorwald did a really good, good job under, under difficult circumstances. I mean there was so little room to be creative and to make big statements in the transfer market and I, I feel like Everton's recruitment, although it's been real bargain basement, has actually helped keep them up the last couple of seasons, you know, but a signing like Beto, who, you know, was risky in some ways but has been justified, obviously that's probably you way that up. Neil Mopo didn't. But Tarkovsky great signing, Lindstrom, people like that, they've made good signings, good decisions over the past three years. And I would have thought Moyes and Thelwell would probably be very much on the same page in terms of the football vision and how that could work. I'm slightly surprised. Everton under an American ownership and an ownership which has used the director football model at Roma, albeit without massive success. But yeah, if you're going to say which manager would be equipped to in the Premier League would be equipped to do the recruitment as well as the coaching, the managing, you'd probably say Moises Moyes is the one who would be probably least troubled by having that on their plate as well.
- [36:25]
Football Analyst
I would echo, completely echo what Oli has said about Kevin Thelwell. I mean, he has actually in a really bizarre sense because Moshiri was trying to sell the club. He has had a lot of, I would say more scope in some ways to make decisions than many of his predecessors and certainly Marcel Dental Brandt, the former director of football had. But with that came such severe limitations. I mean, you look at the players they had to sell just to get by. Richarlison, Anthony Gordon, even Alex Awobi, who's now thriving with Fulham and has proven to be a very good, competent Premier League player. It's been a really tough ask for them. My view is that a lot of the signings they made over the summer, people like Illiman ndai and Jake O'Brien typify the strategy that Everton should use moving forward. When you think of the upside to these players, Endai's still a young player, Senegalese international with loads of upside for the future and loads of potential resale if it needed to come to that. Jake O'Brien is in a similar boat. Everton aren't going to be able to go out and compete in the transfer market with Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United. Those days are long, long gone. I mean it was probably the last time was the 1980s. So they're going to have to be smart, they're going to have to look to find value in the market. And I know this is a cliche now where Brighton and Brentford find it, those kind of deals where they are really going to get that added value. And I think Thirlwell did find a lot of them. My sense from speaking to people around the situation in general was just that almost the personnel that were in place dictated the direction of travel for Everton. While Moyes is not averse as such to working with the director of football, he has spoken before I mean I go back to him doing an interview while he was out of work with the overlap and and sky where he spoke about wanting ideally to have more say over recruitment. So immediately then for somebody like Thelwell his influence is going to be slightly negated a little bit. Kinnear at Leeds has played a hands on role in their footballing structure. If we look at the Leeds United model they have not operated with a sporting director or a technical director now for a number of years since Victor Orta departed. So there probably wasn't a space for Thelwell. And that's not to say this is the right decision by the way, just that I don't think there was the room there for him in the current setup if we're being honest. That might benefit because he might go somewhere else where he has the scope he had in Everton but with extra resources and can show what he wants to do. I think both parties will come out of this quite all right. Thirlwell's reputation is more than intact. Everton have a steady pair of hands in David Moyes and they will have a structure below where there will be various kind of key figures. They'll appoint what we've been told will be ahead of strategy, which is more on the data analytics side. That's coming pretty soon. They'll almost certainly appoint Nick Hammond, the Leeds transfer consultant in a new role as head of trading. So he will lead the negotiation side of things and they'll be ahead of player ID which I think will be internal. That will be the current head of recruitment, Dan Purdy. So there will be a new structure there but instead of a director of football having as it was framed to me at Everton, 15 direct reportees you will have three or four people splitting those duties between them. Let's see, it's a different structure but for every example of a Brighton or a Brentford you also have an Aston Villa where Unai Emery has basically taken the reins completely and is doing wonderful, wonderful things with that club.
- [40:05]
IO Akimullere
Yeah, that brings me really interesting to my final point. Oli and Paddy, please follow on. On this is that, you know this is the first phase. Obviously the stadium's now built so we're looking ahead to the future. Where do Everton take inspiration from? You mentioned Aston Villa there actually in terms of history of both clubs in the Premier League you're looking at club both got big money backers. Now Oli, is Aston Villa a really good way to look at Everton's future? You know what they've achieved so far under Emery and where Aston Villa are looking to go. Because, you know, we talk about dealing with European football and also dealing with league football. I mean, after the win against Brighton last night, Aston Villa aren't too far away from qualifying for European football again this season.
- [40:43]
McDonald's Advertiser
Yeah, I think Aston Villa are definitely an example to follow. And they were able to go from. I mean they were relegated back in 2016 but came back up again 2019 and quickly within the Premier League. I mean, selling Jack Grealish was a big part of it, but they also had a lot of money pumped into them. They have been investing and strengthening their squad. They've had far more freedom in the transfer market than Everton over the last four or five years. They've been often very much at that PSR limit, but Everton have been at that PSR limit without being able to bring quality in for three or four years. So Everton will probably look at the Aston Villa situation and think, how can we get to that? How can we get to a situation where we're not just sort of educated punts on younger players like they did with NDA and others, but buying players that you know are going to improve the team and buying players that you feel are going to turn a sort of bottom half team into a team that can compete with say a club like Villa, a club like spurs, maybe not spurs with the sort of new stadium advantages and commercial advantages they have which are greater. But that should be Everton's immediate target. The last five years or so. Ever been wherever you see a cutoff in terms of the teams who are competitive in the Premier League and the rest, Everton have always been amongst the rest and just happy to stay up. They need to be a club that are really trying to kick on. I think Villa are a good example, but I don't think Everton can immediately get to that level. I think the upside of getting to the new stadium, if we're Talking about perhaps 20 million pound increase in match day revenue over the, over the first couple of seasons, that's not going to be game changing. Sponsorship and things like that might bring more of an upside. And just being in the Premier League, which has been really threatened over the last three or four years, they've looked in grave danger of relegation. And I would say that Everton's new stadium will help them consolidate in the, in the Premier League and should help them secure and build for the next few years. And then at that point I think they can start to build in a more adventurous way.
- [42:54]
IO Akimullere
Am I looking too far ahead, Paddy, when I say the likes of Villa and stuff. Should we just focus on the immediate future first?
- [43:00]
Football Analyst
I would suggest that challenging vil would be unrealistic. I think this needs to be a kind of an incremental growth kind of project rather than splurge everything and let's get back to competing for top six right now. I think that is probably unrealistic and I'm not entirely sure either fans or the ownership will expect that straight away either, to be honest. I think there is an element of realism about where Everton are right now. I mean, let's see, after the summer and when players come in and everything else. But that's how it feels right now. It was quite interesting when the freakin group took over December. They spoke about restoring Everton to their rightful place, as they put it, towards the top of English football. And I'm still trying to work out what the extent of the ambition can be here for Everton, given you've got six or seven moneyed clubs that they're going to struggle to compete against financially, even with TFG's resources. And then you've got three or four clubs and we all know them, Brighton, Brentford, Fulham, now Bournemouth in the category, operating in a really smart way. So I think we're still trying to work out what Everton's position is in this very modern Premier League table. But certainly there is this sense from TFG when they were looking to invest in the club, and from Moyes that Everton can be far more than they are right now and that there is real untapped potential here. And one of the things that TFG were pretty open in saying when they joined was that there were opportunities across the Premier League, big and certainly some opportunities that might have been less risky and financially onerous than the one they took on at Everton. And yet they picked Everton for specific reasons because there is that untapped potential here. A brand new stadium that you can exploit and take revenue from a big residual fan base that can grow, particularly in the United States where there's. I think they've already got about 40 to 45 supporters clubs around the country. Moyes has spoken about how. I mean, he was asked about Brentford and wanting to mirror them a few months ago and he kind of scoffed at the idea and said, no, we're Everton and there's a history here and we should be able to build on that. And with all due respect to Brentford, go far beyond that. Well, the task at hand first is going to be gone, busy with Brentford, never mind Aston Villa and everybody else. I'd like to get the sense that over the summer things are done in a strategic way, that this is not Emperor's New Clothes stuff as it was with Farhad Mushiri. Don't repeat the mistakes of Mashiri where you throw everything at it all at once. Have a plan, stick to that plan and don't deviate. And it doesn't have to be aging stars that are 28 years old that have just fallen out of Manchester United and are looking for the next payday. You can do it with young, hungry talent that you're signing from areas that aren't being exploited properly. And if you get that right, then there is, I think, I would say there's more potential than any other area. So these are opportunities. This is a period of opportunity for Everton. They should look at it as such and they should in theory be able.
- [46:00]
IO Akimullere
To capitalize on Paddy, how do we sign you up for the advisory board for the new era of Everton? Honestly, that was a pitch and a half. Thank you so much for joining us, Paddy, and also Oli as well. And also thank you guys for listening. That's it for now. Adam Leventhal will be with you tomorrow ahead of the Manchester Derby.
- [46:17]
McDonald's Advertiser
You've been listening to the F Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroot and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [46:39]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [46:47]
Shopify Advertiser
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- [47:15]
Football Analyst
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- [48:12]
Football Analyst
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IO Akimullere
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
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Football Analyst
Or taping songs off the radio?
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McDonald's Advertiser
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Football Analyst
Hey, AOL chat rooms.
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McDonald's Advertiser
Did we just age ourselves?
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IO Akimullere
Yep.
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McDonald's Advertiser
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Football Analyst
Be two comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging question, Are we old?
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McDonald's Advertiser
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Football Analyst
Are we old? Podcast right here on acast.
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Shopify Advertiser
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- [49:01]
Football Analyst
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