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Off@Quo.Com business that's quote.com business and we can port your existing numbers over for free. Quo no missed calls, no missed customers. The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, IO Akimolere. So far this season we've had long throws, rugby style, kickoffs and big lads up front. So why has the Premier League gone old school? Here with us for this one, we've got the tactical brain of Mark Kerry. We've also got the wonderful brain of Oli Kay and later on you'll hear from former Liverpool throwing coach Thomas Gronemark as well. All right gents. Ah, wow. So much going on with the Premier League at this moment and some really fascinating kickoff routines, throw ins, you name it. But Mark and Oli, you know, from your perspective, what are your thoughts in the Premier League season so far? Which teams have impressed you most? Ollie, you go first.

B (3:49)

I think Crystal palace are the obvious ones and Bournemouth in terms of punching above their weight and performing beyond expectations. We've seen, I mean I think most people would say Liverpool and Arsenal and Manchester City look like the, the three favorites for the title. Not necessarily in that order, but that will probably change by the week. But I think what we can say is that Crystal palace and Bournemouth over a really sustained period of time are really impressing and impressing with the organization of their game, the energy of their game, their success in transitions. They just look like really clever teams. Whereas I think we're probably looking at Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester City and add Balmy's, add Chelsea and Manchester United and others to that and thinking, well they have enormous potential because they've got all these wonderful players because they've spent a lot of money. But I don't feel like those teams are really looking as cohesive, coherent as they could be at the moment. Whereas I look at palace and Bournemouth and thinking yeah, those coaches are really getting absolutely everything out of those teams at the moment.

D (4:53)

Thoughts, Mark?

C (4:53)

Yeah, they were my exact 2. I completely agree with Oli. I think for all the reasons that he said and I think with Crystal palace it's kind of, if not been coming for quite a while then they've been on a Good run. We knew that they were I think it was 19 games unbeaten in all competitions before they lost to Everton in the weekend. Just gone. So they have been on a consistent run for quite some time. And Bournemouth that really impressed last season do not me wrong but I think it's made even more impressive when you think about the key players that, that they lost. I think it's been spoken about widely but you think they lost Milos Kaz, Dean Howson and and Kepo in in goal and they've brought in Triferdi, Akite and Petrovic for those positions specifically and all three of those have just fitted in so, so seamlessly. It's so clear what style of play and what identity Andoni Iraola plays with it so much so that it means that other players can just come in and just fit in with the, the broader system and know their roles. So I think it's so impressive what they're doing. I suppose at the other end of the scale you think who's maybe fallen. It's sort of jarring in both ways. Who's fallen above expectation, who's fallen below expectation. I think Aston Villa are probably an example of below expectation but probably for reasons that are broadly established with their recruitment ability as much as anything. Not necessarily even their strategy, just with the whole PSR limitations etc. But the sort of the mess if you like at Nottingham Forest that again for reasons that are known off field as well you sort of felt that they. Everything was just in position at the start of the season for them to kick on and now things look very, very confused. Are they a possession based team now? Are they not? They went to a three at the back at the weekend. Is. Does that mean that Angel Postecoglou is now accepting that he might need to change a little bit? Is he safe in his role that this, this disappointment there? I suppose from, from that regard considering how well things went went last season and I do think they've recruited well actually Nottingham Forest I think they brought in some really good. It makes it all the more jarring that, that things have maybe slid a little bit.

D (7:00)

There have been 262 long throws into the opposition penalty area in the Premier League this season. That's almost half of last season's total already. Well, let's get into it. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. Thomas Grunberg, formerly of Liverpool and also the world's first throw in Coach Thomas, so good to have you with us.

A (7:18)

Yeah, thanks a lot. It's a pleasure.

B (7:20)

Yeah.

D (7:20)

Well, I tell you what, before we Jump into the throw ins. We both share something quite special. We both share a world record. So I'm going to get you to go first and I'll tell you what my world record is as well. So what is your world record, Thomas?

A (7:32)

Yeah, actually I don't have the world record anymore. I had it for nine years. But in 2010 I set the official Guinness world record longest throw in with a throw of 51.33 meters. The special thing was that I did it with a flip throw in and the challenge was that I was a non gymnast so I had to, you know, learn it from, from the very start. So that was my world record. Yeah.

D (7:53)

Who was the person that broke it? Do you know them? And if you have you had a word, are you gonna have. You gotta try break it again?

A (7:59)

No, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's. It's a guy called Mike, Mike Lewis from, from the States who beat it in 2019. And I actually invited him for a trial for a club here in Denmark in 2020. So I actually helped him after he beat my world record. So.

D (8:15)

Amazing. Amazing. Well, my world record, I've got the, the world record for the deepest recorded open water swim. So I swam across ocean in the world as well. You can see the little plaque right there. I always try and flex it every time I do the podcast. So yeah, so both of us are world record holders. So welcome to the podcast. You. You've officially earned your place on the Athletic FC podcast. Ollie. Market any, any world records to throw in the. In the mix or not even close?

B (8:39)

I think, I think I'm in the world's messiest office. But that, that doesn't quite count.

D (8:43)

Okay, we, we sit on a high throw. Thomas, let's get into this. Let's talk about you because you know, throw ins are a quite niche thing. I'm so fascinated from your perspective when you actually realized that this was such a key point in modern football, but also a point in which you could gain advantage from. When did that sort of light bulb switch in your head?

A (9:04)

Yeah, so first of all, I have a background as a football player myself. Then I've been six years on the Danish athletics national team as a sprinter, four years on the Danish national bobsleigh team. And it was in the middle of that bobsleigh period in 2004 where I played an indoor football match against the German national bobsleigh team. Quite crazy story, but I got the idea to be a throwing coach. So the first couple of years it was only the Long throw ins. But then suddenly I saw a match with one of my Danish Super League teams and they lost the ball, you know, all the time from the middle of the pitch. Then I thought, wow, that was bad. I thought, oh, is it only that team who were that bad? Then I realized that most teams also in the Premier League, Champions League, Bundesliga and on and on, they lost the ball in more than 50% of the occasions when there was a throw in under pressure, where the players are marked. And then I just of course started to look for literature, for books, everything. There was no information. So I had, you know, I had to build everything myself from scratch. So since 2004 I've been coaching professional teams. And then I got my international breakthrough in 2018 where Jurgen Klopp called me directly on the phone. So for 21 years I've been coaching professional teams in the throw ins and I'm still the only full time throwing coach. So yeah, I'm quite a throw in nerd.

D (10:25)

Yeah, super impressive. I mean, what, what did that phone call feel like when Yoga Klopp called you? Because, you know, Liverpool won the league for the first time in what, 30 years or so. What was that call with Jurgen Klopp like? And when you see his name pop up on your phone or was it just like a number where you were like, who on earth is calling me at this time of the day?

A (10:43)

Yeah, it was. I was actually visiting a chocolate shop with my family in, in early July 2018. And then there were my, my, my phone was in silent mode and I saw it was like +44 number who'd been calling me. So I thought it was some guy from England selling pencils. So then I listened to the voicemail, then it was Jurgen Klopp, you know, and he had read an article about me in the German newspaper, built while he was at vacation in Tenerife. And he invited me to Millwood the week after. It should only be the meeting, but he was convinced that I had the chance to coach 21 Premier League players who weren't on vacation or after the World cup were injured. And then the week after I signed a contract. And then all in all, I was in Liverpool for five seasons winning the Champions League, Premier League and five other titles. And since then I've been coaching six to eight professional teams every season. I'm a freelancer, I'm not a full time. So that call from Jurgen Klopp was really important for me.

D (11:42)

Yeah. Have you ever sort of felt any sort of, I guess, snobbery or reticence from the industry based on what you actually did. Because some might say it's quite niche, some might say it's quite advantageous, some might say it's quite out of the box as well.

A (11:56)

Yeah, you can say on one hand it's quite niche and I totally agree with that because niches means that only one or very few people are doing it. But actually it shouldn't be niche, it shouldn't be, it should be mainstream because you have 40 to 60 throw ins in a match. You're spending around 20 minutes in a match on throw ins and throwing related situations. So actually you should have like thousands of throwing coaches or at least educated coaches in throw ins, you know. But so it's, it's, it's been called neat, it's been called special. And that's also one of the reasons why I can still be the only full time throwing coach, you know. And the main specialist is while Otto laughed, while Otto said it was a small thing. I just kept improving myself and getting more and more knowledge, improving my coaching, making new drills, looking at different tools, looking at the opponent's defending pattern. So it meant that I have a big head start compared to the rest of the football world. So, so this is what I, what I help clubs with. And then one of the big misunderstand. Yes, in some clubs I coach the long throw ins and I'm very successful with those clubs like FC Midland or Brentford or so. But in most of my clubs or many of my clubs like Liverpool, Ajax Dortmund and many others, it's more what I call the fast and clever throw ins. So a lot of people think okay, throw in coaching, long throw ins. We don't want to do that, then forget about it. No, throw in coaching should be for all teams, of course the best level in the world, but also for youth and amateur teams too because it has the same consequences. You lose the ball after throwing, the opponents can score. If you keep it, you can keep control, create a chance to score a goal. It's quite simple and it happens so many times. So, so it should be mainstream. But I'm still the only full time pro on this year.

B (13:38)

Thomas. That really interests me because I remember when you were, when you were appointed by Liverpool and there was suddenly a lot of fuss about oh, they've got a throw in coach and we very rarely saw a long throw from them. But what we did see, as I think you're referring to is for example Andy Robertson would get the ball and he would send it very quickly down the line. For Sadio Mane or Roberto Firmino to run to. And it was very, very effective. But they seemed not to be interested. I mean I could almost never remember them taking a long throw or very, very rarely in that period. So was Jurgen Klopp not interested in the long throw as a tool or was it more that he was keen to find a competitive advantage from those very quick restarts?

A (14:22)

Yeah, I did a little bit of long throwing coaching in the start among the other throwing coaching. But the main reason for that was to when you throw longer you have a greater throwing area and then you can throw to more players. But when you throw longer you can also be much better at counter attack throw ins and you can't be offside and throw in. So that's a big advantage. And for example Andy Robertson you mentioned when I came to Liverpool he could only throw 19 meters and 80. That's really short. So it meant every time Liverpool had a throw in the left side of the pitch, it was really easy for the opponents to put on high pressure because he couldn't throw far. So the throwing error was really small. And you Robertson improved to 27 meters. And even though that's not world class if you compare to world class long throw intakers, he still added on 530 square meters on his throwing error. So yes, yes, in I did a little bit of long throw in coaching with Liverpool, but that was mainly of those two reasons. But the reason why the team didn't use it so much. For example, I developed Joe Gomez who could throw like really world class. He also assisted a long throwing goal for England against Croatia in the Nations League. But this is more about the playing style. But because what we have to remember is you can be really successful with long throw ins. For example, the last five seasons I coached FC Mittelein in Denmark, they scored 46 long throwing goals. Last season it was 11 long throwing goals. So you can be successful with that. But you also have to remember if you want to score a lot of long throw ins, you have to take a lot of long throw ins too. And it means you have to have a break in the match. I think that Jurgen Klopp felt, and I totally agree that this will like stop Liverpool's fast, fluid game, you know, attacking style. So yes, when I say to people I could, I could easily have helped Liverpool score 10 long throwing goals every season, then people say why? Why didn't you? Yeah, of that exact reason, why it had affected the game for Liverpool and that wouldn't necessarily be positive.

C (16:20)

So yeah, Thomas I'm interested in the numbers and you spoke about the goals that could be scored from long throw ins but also those quicker throws taken, let's say in the middle third. How do you quantify improvement among all the teams in terms of is it just retaining the ball and keeping possession from certain situations or you know, it leading to a shot from that certain sequence? How can you track the improvement in a team over time?

A (16:45)

Yeah, so first of all, as I say, I took the season before I came to Liverpool, they were number 18 in the Premier League, third last with a possession of 45.4%. But in my first season, 18, 19 season, they improved from 45.4% to 68.4% and went from number 18 to number one in the Premier League on throw ins under pressure, where the players are marked. So this is data from T4 Football. This is not my own. So of course you want to look at possession and that's quite important because as I mentioned before, if you lose the ball, the opponents can score. If you keep the ball, you can score. That's quite simple. But it's not only about possession too because it's also about chance creation and so on. Sometimes you can also for example have a possession if you. A lot of teams throw automatically backwards if they have the options. And then you can say yes, you kept possession but you didn't take the chance. But obviously you can also say I also have a thing called low risk, high reward throw ins. So let's say you have a throw in, in the left side of the pitch, you get the ball fast and then Suddenly, let's say number 10, he's running behind your opponent's defense, you know already now he's fast, number 10, you can also see the run is well timed. Then you can throw what I call low risk, high reward throwing behind the defense. So it means that if it goes well, good situation, chance, even a goal, but if it goes bad, we can still pressure in that area and if it goes really, really bad, you can say they get a goal kick. And so it's not a bad situation, it's a good risk to take. So you, you should only look at possession. You also have to look at risk taking. And so, and this is really important. And then another thing is that a lot of people think I only coach the attacking throw ins, but I'm actually also coaching when the opponents have a throw in, how can you take the ball from the opponents? And Liverpool, the five years I was there was not only good at keeping possession, creating chances and scoring goal because we scored 10 to 15 goals after throw ins all of those five seasons. But we are also like masters in taking the ball from the opponents. And this is about different of course, defending strategies. It's also about the ability to press the right way. It's also like a thing like pressure, risk and so you have to know how to pressure in the right times. But it's also about reading the space that your opponents are trying to create. So of course there's a lot of small things in between. But again, a lot of coaches, they are treating the throw ins the wrong way, especially when they train. So I have a different approach.

D (19:09)

Thomas. There's something we've noticed. Certain teams in the Premier League are sort of kicking the ball straight out of play. Given the opposition a throw in near their goal. It feels like a rugby tactic coming into football. What do you make of that sort of transition?

A (19:25)

I think it's, it's, it's only half good. And why do you say half good? It's because I think that you're wasting opportunities by doing this. So a lot of teams are on purpose shooting the ball out around the opponent's penalty area and then they put on pressure there. So first of all you can counter that by taking the ball really fast. Actually, you could actually re. Innovate that by setting your fullbacks outside the line and then catch the ball when it comes and throw immediately. That's one thing. You can also create different spaces if the pressure comes. So it's not unbreakable. You know, it's just a good tactic. And the other thing, what would I have done as a tagging team? Instead of I wouldn't shoot it out directly. Instead I would set the ball at the kickoff, then maybe play 2, 3, 4 passes so my winger has the time to run down in that area. Then I'll try to shoot for that winger. So it means that if the first long pass goes well, then we have a chance. If it doesn't go well or it's too long, then we still have the same situation as earlier. You can press on the throw in. So I think if you shoot it directly out, you miss extra opportunities. So you can say the idea in itself, like pressing at the opponent's penalty area, not bad. I think they can just do it much better. So yeah, yeah.

D (20:40)

I'm just thinking about how effective these long throws are, especially into the box as well. I just thinking about Liverpool, your former team. The last minute goal against Palace a few weeks ago, that came off a long throw how hard are they to defend?

A (20:53)

Yes, of they're really hard to defend. So first of all, first of all, of course you can do some specific things to defend it. For example, if you sandwich the expected receiver, then there's a bigger chance of winning the duel instead of only having a player behind the expected receiver. That's one thing. Of course you can do many things. It's actually really really hard to defend. And the reason why it's hard to defend is that world class long throwers. For example my team last season, FC Midland, who scored 11 long throwing goals last season, I think they got two or three penalties after long throw ins too where they scored. So you can say that was 13 or 14. The challenge is that if you have a world class long throwing taker who can throw to the first post or longer in the air, if he can also throw flat and precise and normally long throwing takers can do that, he can put the ball wherever he wants. The challenge with the long throwing is that you'll let go of the ball in maybe two, two and a half meters height over your head. Then it will travel up to maybe three and a half, four, four and a half meters. But it's still quite flat. Tra. So it means that even if you win the duel as a defender, if you hit it on your forehead, you'll hear it. If you hit it on the top of your head or a little bit up on your head, then it's a flick on. So it means that if it comes with like 60, 70 kilometers per hour, even if you win the duel as a defender, it's really hard to time. So it's only like a few centimeters who decides if you're successful or unsuccessful. And you can see that goal from Crystal palace, it was actually one of the Liverpool players who won that duel. And it was actually like quite clear, you know. But because it's so hard to time, he flicked it not directly back but still like diagonal back. And then Crystal palace kept it. So I see that, you know, if you have a long throw in, you don't care who flicks it on. It doesn't matter. You also don't care if it's a direct hitter or if you score on the fourth ball inside the penalty area, you know, can you get it in there? You have a lot of people in there. Have you the real strategy? Create a strategy around your long throw ins too. Do you have players inside in penalty area who are like wild animals? To get that second, third or fourth ball, you have a big advantage. It's really hard to stop. And if you ask me, you can be much more dangerous from long throw ins. If you have the right tools, the right experts, then you can be on corner kicks. And then there is another thing. It's much easier to get a throw in than a corner kick normally. So one thing is that you can be dangerous from that, but you are also adding on many more dangerous set pieces. So all in all, it's a crazy good weapon if you have the tools for it.

D (23:28)

Yeah. Just before you go, I'm also super impressed that you've conducted this entire interview in your car. I'm just praying the wi fi doesn't drop off anytime soon. But you mentioned Mitteland earlier about one of the teams you've worked with. Who else do you work with? Who else is seeking your expertise at this moment in time?

A (23:45)

Yeah, of course some of my teams are secrets. That's often.

D (23:51)

Come on, give us one, give us one.

A (23:54)

Been I've been coaching, I've been coaching this season until now in, in Spain, in Japan, in Germany. I was recently in Sweden. But I'm also in, in dialogue with an Italian team, for example, also another Spanish team and I have like a third country I can't reveal. So there all, all the time there are people who want to hire me because even though I'm getting a quite good, you know, amount of money, it's still much, much cheaper to hire me me than buying new players or so. Because you can buy a new player for like 10, 50, 100 million pounds. But, but to be honest, you don't really know if he will work. You can, I've been part of 15 titles in international football. A lot of teams punching above their weight and you know, a lot of promotions too. So I think people are getting crazy good value for hiring me. So sorry for blowing my own horn here.

D (24:46)

That's a great pitch. I'm not gonna lie. That's a great pitch.

B (24:49)

Thomas, I was just going to ask, you know, know when Jurgen Klopp or whoever from the Liverpool coaching staff said that he felt that their, if they suddenly became a team that was fixated on long throws, you know, they might lose some of the intensity from their attacking game. Do you see that when you, when you look at the Premier League? I, I, I look at, I look at Arsenal for example, and I think their emphasis has changed as a team. They've become a team that's very, very fixated on set pieces, whether it's corners, free kicks, throw ins and is there a danger that overly Focusing on set pieces might take something away from their game.

A (25:30)

Yeah, so. So there are two challenges there. One of the things I see in the Premier League is that there are a lot of low quality long throw ins. So I think if you even want to take it, you want to have a world class long throw intake who can throw at least to the first post in year because then you have a much, much bigger chance. Of course, also different strategy. The other worry is, like you say, Oliver, is that I don't want to have a start stop game. You know, we have to remember that the only reason why players can earn money, probably also the only reason why we're sitting here and talking is because there are so many, many money and so much attention in the sport and it's because the fans are paying to get tickets to the stadium or watch it on the telly. So again, yes, I think it's quite fine that some teams are doing long throw ins. I think that's really good. But if every start to do like 8, 10, 12 long throwings each, we will change the game totally. So I don't like that. And again, how many teams should do long throw ins, I shouldn't decide, but let me say a third should do. Yeah, it's fine. They do a lot. A third, they might do it once in a while and third, never do it again. It's not me to decide. We just have to take the entertainment in consideration when we're talking about this too.

D (26:43)

Brilliant, Thomas. Well, we better let you go. I know you've got lots of clubs after you, probably another one this afternoon as well. But really appreciate your time and thank you so much for joining us on the Athletic FC podcast.

A (26:53)

Yeah, you're absolutely welcome.

C (26:59)

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Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

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D (30:38)

Thomas was a rather interesting guy. I loved his gusto. I loved his love for throw ins. He would. You would love it because obviously it's his job. But Ollie, what did you make of what he said? I was really fascinated with your question around sort of whether it stalls the game a little bit, what Arsenal are doing, even though they're effective with their thrones and set pieces. Does it take a little something away from the enjoyment of this game?

B (31:00)

Well, I think it does. I wouldn't be snobby about team's ability or capacity or to. To score from long throw ins. I, I remember seeing Stoke do it when they came up in, you know, was it 2008, 2009 with Rory Dap, the, the long throw. And you just left thinking, well what. Why is nobody else doing this? One of the oldest tricks in the book. And, and why is this fallen out of fashion? Mark, can you. You can you bring us up to date with the numbers and spare me gibbering over the incorrect data.

D (31:32)

I saw you panic there. I saw the panic in your eyes, like, let's get this to happen happily.

C (31:36)

Yeah, well, to go full royal keen is my job, so I'm very much prepared on that front. And one thing I wanted to speak about, I suppose because we're still so early on in the season, so without just speaking about raw numbers, I think it's as much as anything the inclination from teams to throw it into the box, basically, if we're talking about long throws. So what I did was look at the share of, of all throws taken in the final third that end in the opposition penalty area. So hopefully quite a simple kind of ratio. And this season so far it's 27%, which is remarkable when you consider that the previous let's go three seasons was 13%, 11% and 10%. So more than twice the inclination to when the ball gets into the final third to try and throw it into the box and think of these sort of choreographed routines to try and generate a shot from it. And all teams have done this, which I think is interesting as well. It's not just a select few and there's only three teams who haven't generated a shot from those situations and that's Manchester City, Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa. So I think it shows that it's. Yeah, it's a league wide trend that's happening. It's not just, you know, a couple of teams doing it. And I do think it's really interesting. I know we've spoken about this very recently as well on the YouTube channel. And I think it's not just to Ollie's point about the Roy delap example. I think that's a really, really sort of salient one to think of where it's okay, a player with a really good throw launches it in, you can maybe get a flick on and then a back post finish or maybe just an immediate goal. I think what's interesting this season is that it's also just keeping the sequence alive. It might be that within 10 seconds of the throw being taken that a goal might come or a shot might come. It's creating that chaos and everything it brings with the overall idea of a long throw rather than. And because there's not too many players who have got a good throw in the same way that Rory delap does. So it's more based on the idea that this could cause chaos and we can bring our centre backs forward more so than we've got a really good player in our squad who can throw it and launch it into the area. So we should utilise that. I think that's what's really interesting, which shows why there's a trend that's forming and everyone's starting to think there might be something in this and to go full circle. That's why 27% of those final third throws are being thrown into the penalty area.

D (33:53)

Yeah, we've put this out on YouTube, gents and Ollie, you've alluded to it in terms of whether it's. I don't know how to put this, whether it just changes the game a little bit. And it's been quite a mixed response, really. Someone says, I hate this when it comes to long throws. Also, as long as it's not cheating, do what you have to do to win. There's one here saying the football has been crap this season in the Premier League. If you want long throws and choreographed set pieces, watch rugby. Another one says, backwards tactics talk. Are we too snobby about long throws? Because if you think about the incremental gains and the fine margins in the Premier League, surely any weapon you can use to your Arsenal right now, just go for it, Mark.

C (34:37)

Yeah, I think it's, it's exactly that point where if you've got a closed skill or a closed sequence, a closed routine where you can bring your players and put them in certain positions that are repeatable, then to maximize your chances of success, then you're going to, to do that. And that's what this season has shown even more than before. Because football itself, we know, is such a fluid sport. You can kick a ball around and run around for an hour and a half and still finish nil, nil. And you can't really gain as much control as you wish to. If you can use those sequences to maximize that control, then it can only be a good thing. And I suppose it speaks to people like me who are trying to make the game more scientific and more data driven that there's clearly an upside to this. And clubs are becoming more smarter and realizing actually if it can improve our expected goals, our chance of scoring, consequently our results by 2 to 3%, these are things that are worth doing. So yes, it might be a little bit dry aesthetically sometimes because there is a bit more stop start to the game. But teams who are dealing with millions and billions of pounds trying to win a game of football are going to utilize those things if they can maximize that control.

B (35:50)

So Mark, when, when we say about increasing teams chances of, of. Of scoring yet we've seen more and more, I mean twice as many balls hurled into the box yet the scoring rate is considerably down and I know, I know you'll say small sample size but it's, it's quite drastically down on last season which was in turn down on, on the previous season. 2.6 goals per game at the moment. So when I asked Thomas about the, about the Liverpool example and he felt yes, you could add more goal threat by specializing in long throws, he told us that Jurgen Klopp had felt that sort of building their game around long throws would take away some of their, some of their attacking ibitus and the energy around them. That's what I would say I would see at the, in the Premier League at the moment where yes, there's probably an increased goal threat from set pieces in general, but long throws in particular. But it feels like the, the, the, the overall emphasis and the overall threat in open play is, is, is down. I'm sure the statistics would, would back that up. And I, I feel like one of the readers or the commenters that you mentioned. Da. Without wanting to be snobby about anybody's right to exploit the long throw, I feel it is making the spectacle worse. There are long stoppages, lots of. I mean I agree with the thing about being like rugby. You look at some of the kickoffs, delays over the throw ins, I'm sure I read that the playing time is way, way down and I feel it's making for. I mean I'm not one of these people who likes to say, oh, modern football's boring. I think modern football has been fantastic the last few seasons where we've seen a highly creative, highly technical, I think much more techn technical game than we've seen in the past. But I, I look at this season's football, I feel like I'm seeing less entertaining football, less technical football and a lot of stop starts and a lot of just balls booted into the corner and balls hurled into the penalty. And I don't think it is particularly aesthetically pleasing. And I would also question whether as an overall, you know, it's increasing the goal threat.

D (38:03)

I appreciate that. And also I'm just thinking about if we take it back to the old Tony Poulis like he had a team that wasn't able to compete ball ball with some of the really good teams in the Premier League, right. So why don't you use what you can to your Arsenal and hopefully you get something off it. You know like not everyone is blessed with the riches of Arsenal let's say or even Manchester City or maybe even Liverpool, dare I say, who play such great football. How would you want to compete? It's such a tricky one, isn't it to find that balance.

B (38:28)

Yeah, I would, I mean you keep using the word Arsenal lowercase Arsenal as in as it, it's a weapon in their Arsenal. But Arsenal are really interesting case because, because I feel it was a change of direction with Arsenal over the summer of 2024 where Arteta went towards a much more kind of attritional style of football. Bigger emphasis on winning first balls, winning second balls. Less about being the sort of free flowing attacking force they've been in the past. Look, they finished second last season but it was a very distant second. And I know there are other factors, injuries. I felt that they had also though gone a bit too much in a, in a set piece, set place direction. And it was interesting hearing Thomas talk about how Jurgen Klopp didn't want to, didn't want to particularly go in that long throw direction. Wanted, wanted to sustain the, the Energy, momentum, impetus around, around his team. That's what I, I would, I could see what Arsenal get from set pieces. It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, corners in particular, it's a great weapon. They've got a brilliant corner taker or a couple of brilliant corner takers. They've got guys like Gabrielle who are brilliant in the air. But are you taking something away from your general play? Not just in terms of the stoppages and stop start nature of the performances, but you know, if you're, if you're spending hours and hours a week in trading and your video analysis and everything it set pieces. I'm sure there's a bit of a balancing act to be found between the competitive advantage that you gain from relying on set peaks to what you perhaps lose from your game. If you've got all these world class players and you're over emphasizing set plays.

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D (42:08)

Mark, let's get into set pieces. How many more set pieces are we seeing now then in regard not just throw ins, but corners, free kicks, etc?

C (42:15)

Yeah, no, exactly. I think it's. We could probably include penalties within that, just so it keeps it sort of round as dead ball situations. And I suppose comparing it again as a share at this stage of the season, because obviously otherwise we're comparing with whole seasons of seasons gone by. But at this stage of the season, 35% of the total goals that have been scored in the Premier League league are from set pieces, again including penalties. So dead ball situations last season for context and the season before were either side of 27%. So it is a notable increase from previous years and it is widely known that it's between a quarter and a third of all goals are scored via set pieces. So it's not wholly surprising, but it's definitely sort of reached a bit of a spike. And I think it's no coincidence that with all this. One thing that we haven't mentioned, I suppose Thomas being a good example of that, but in general, set piece specialists being now so, so more commonplace in the football clubs, but also in the dugout and the minute, you know, a throw, a wide free kick, a corner is about to be taken. You see them trying to coordinate the players themselves and they're taking on a prominent role. And we know Nicolas Joubert by name, we know Austin McPhee by name. That's quite surprising that these are set piece specialists. So I think that's interesting. One thing I think is interesting, that it has reached a spike as well. Well, kind of speaks to the point that Thomas made before in that it's not just from an attacking perspective, but from a defensive perspective as well. These specialists are looking to see how you can nullify the opposition's threat as well as maximize your own strengths. Which made me think that there'd be an extent to which it would kind of cancel each other out. There'd maybe be higher quality in the attacking sense, but as a consequence it'd be a higher quality in the defensive sense and it would still be around about the same number, just sort of better qualitatively, but. But that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems that the choreograph routines, these sort of special sequences, specialist sequences, are bearing fruit at the moment because it's, yeah, 35%, a really big increase are scored from set pieces this season.

B (44:19)

It also means it's 35% of a much smaller number of goals, isn't it? Which shows how a lot fewer goals are being scored from open play. Not just proportionally but, but in terms of the raw numbers it's a lot fewer goals being scored in open play. And I, I, I, I worry about that because I, I, I don't see, I don't see the great free flowing exciting football that I feel we've seen in previous seasons. I, I, I, I was watching Man City at Brentford the other day and it was, it was and I, and I'm not one of these people who will, will moan about Pep Guardiola's football being, being boring. I think Pepolio's football has been brilliant, wonderful for the Premier League, for football in general. But I, I was watching them the other day, I thought this is, this is not a good game. This is, this is a, this is sterile. It's quite sort of functional and it's, and it's, you know, it's very stop start with, with throw ins and it's, yeah I do, I do feel that the spectacle is, is a lot less good when there is such an emphasis on, on set place.

D (45:26)

Well that's interesting and I just want to very quickly if we move on. I know we've been on this for a while but you're bringing up some really interesting points in my head. Mark. Why would teams like Arsenal or Manchester City who are known to play that free flowing football now at a point where actually super vital to try and win the Premier League maybe go the other way and be more set PC? Are there any sort of ideas to that?

C (45:50)

I think the Arsenal one again it's something we spoke about on the YouTube channel. I wasn't it that I think with Arsenal they, for whatever reason they might just be, well they seem to be in recent seasons struggling to score an open play as freely as a Manchester City. What I think about set plays sometimes is that it's, it's been previously thought of as reserved for the teams who aren't necessarily good at scoring an open play and aren't necessarily prolific goal scorers in the league in general, let's say a bottom half team. Therefore they need to use their strength from set pieces and maybe their physicality from their center backs to maximize the chance that they can score because they can't do it quite as well in open play compared to most of the rest of the league. Arsenal can still score pretty well in open play but the amount of attacks that they have, you know, just by, just by volume alone, they're not always going to score from every wave of attack that they have. But if they can think of ways to sustain attacks just by the fact that they have so much territorial dominance, they like to, to pin the opposition back, back. If they can sustain attacks by either, you know, if the ball gets booted back up field and then one of the center backs can start attack again and you know, you repeat it that way if you can, that's probably more akin to Manchester City. But if Arsenal can do it another way and that cross that they initially try and do, an open play doesn't come off and it goes out for a corner, then their way to sustain the attack is by having a lot of those corners, those set piece routines. And then if you can maximize that, then you're still the open play part of that has still been hugely relevant, hugely helpful to generate the corner situation from which you score from. I said it the other day that people maybe chastise Arsenal a little bit or use them as the example a little bit too much that there's a criticism that they are overly reliant on set pieces and they have been to a certain extent probably more than you would expect for a side who's looking to try and win the title. But I do think it's intrinsically linked to the fact that they are territorially dominant in open play and they have the quality to get the ball into those, those advanced situations that then lead to it. And if someone's going to give them corner, I think sure their opinions, well, we may as well try and score from it and if we may as well try and maximize the chances of scoring from it. So I sort of want to give them a little bit of credit to show that it's it that the two do go hand in hand a little bit. Yeah.

D (48:00)

Let's talk about the top scorer in the Premier League right now. Erling Haaland. Big tall strong striker. Newcastle have recruited one as well. Volta Marder Arsenal have gone for Eucharist. Manchester United have gone for Sheko. Let's not also forget Jean Felipe Mateta at Crystal Palace. Recent friends France call up. What is the theme here with. With big traditional sort of number nines, big tall lads up front. Is it because teams are going longer as well? Mark?

C (48:26)

I think to a certain extent, I think it is still worth kind of highlighting that we have. I mean you said John Philippe Mateta a good example. He's been at Crystal palace for a good couple of seasons now. I still think that it's Worth highlighting that we have still had kind of big, physically imposing number nines being a focal point and leading the line in recent seasons. And, you know, Erling Haaland came into the Premier League, I think, the 22, 23 season, so he's been around for a while. I suppose there's some good examples with Victor Jocores coming in at Arsenal and Liverpool looking more for the traditional sort of focal points in Alexander Isak and Hugo Ekitike. But you think about someone like Chris Wood at Nottingham Forest previously Ivan Toney at Brentford, you could maybe say someone like Raul Jimenez at Fulham. We still have had those kind of traditions, traditional number nines. I'd be interested to hear what Ollie thinks, but I do think that it's not outrageous that we're seeing more of the, what we'll call the traditional number nines now. I still think there has been a bit of a trend. That being said, your question about long balls, I do think if they've got someone who's got the physical profile and the technical ability to receive those long balls and actually kind of sustain attacks, rather than it being a Niall Quinn knockdown for Kevin Phillips and it be a bit more agricultural, natural. I do think that it's now looking for those players who are tall, physically imposing and able to potentially receive the ball, control it, drag their team up the field and then actually sort of begin a new wave of attack rather than sort of hitting hope and then just try and sustain a bit of territory there. But yeah, I don't know what you think, Ollie, but I think it's. It's not, as I say, not outrageous that it's kind of going in this direction.

B (50:05)

No, I, I agree with. I was going to make the same point about, about it being a, A much more sort of calculated measure, measured, sophisticated. If people said, what's a long ball 20 years ago or particularly 30 years ago, I'm thinking sort of Wimbledon in the late 80s and Sheffield United in the early 90s. It was, it was, you know, really big up and unders from the goalkeeper up to a, you know, a striker who was, you know, a big center forward who was perhaps halfway through the, halfway through the opposition half looking for a knockdown. Like you say, it wasn't, it wasn't great to watch. It was effective at times, but. But these days, you know, you would, you would say that the person that gradual made. Made for Harland at Brenford and that was, that was a really nice pass. It was, it was a long ball technically, but it, but it was a nice person. It was seized upon by Erling Harland in a way that only he really can. I mean it's, it was amazing. But it's interesting that we seem to be moving away from the traditional center forward for a time time. There was this sort of move towards a false nine kind of direction. You saw Roberto Firmino at Liverpool and obviously the succession of sort of false nine type operators that Barcelona had. And you see the role Dembele played for Paris St Germain last season, it wasn't particularly, it wasn't like a traditional number nine role. I can remember Arsene Wenger talking one stage probably about a decade ago saying, saying that Europe isn't producing center forwards, sort of big traditional center forwards anymore. It's, it's just producing sort of players who are good at link playing that you look at what's, what's coming out of a lot of academies at the moment is it's big sort of. Well, I think they're designed to be early Erling Harland clones, aren't they? A lot of the support. You know, everyone wants this big, big, powerful, strong, incredibly quick center forward and, and I think, you know, look at, you know, there's not a vast difference in terms of the age ages, but CIS Cisco is, is probably someone that, that Manchester United hope will develop along similar lines. Jockes is obviously older but it's. Yeah, it does feel that type of player has, has come into fashion and probably in a sort of crept back into fashion in a way that probably a lot of people didn't see coming. Because I think probably people three or four years ago would probably have thought Haaland was a, was a one off rather than the sort of prototype that other teams would, would build around.

D (52:31)

On that Harland subject, Ollie, any better striker in the Premier League right now? But also considering Manchester City aren't obviously what we expect of them, his goals have been so imperative to where they're going this season, surely.

B (52:46)

Yeah, I, I would say without any hesitation the best said forward in the Premier League. I think everybody can point to things that he's not especially good at relative to other players, but I think he's, I think he's improved in those areas. But his threat, his threat is, is just, you know, is constant. You cannot take your eyes off him for a minute. I don't think he's, I don't think he's being served anything like as well as he was in his first season at Manchester City. I don't think he's being served as well as for example, Sergio Aguero was, you know, in his prime at Manchester City. But in a team that's I think a bit more functional than, than previous Manchester City teams, he's still managing to, he, he gets chances but he just buries them, doesn't he? He buries them time and time again and he's, he's, he's a phenomenon. He's not, he's not a particularly appealing player to watch, but he's incredibly, incredibly effective and incredibly good. And I, I, I can't remember which pundit it said, said that was it Jamie Carragher said the other day that he feels he's the best goal scorer we've seen in the Premier League. And I would agree best goal scorer.

D (53:54)

We'Ve seen in the Premier League. Mark.

C (53:56)

I mean, that's a big shout to go across the whole Premier League era. I was, I was just doing the calculations in my head to be like, who could have maybe been better. I know that often Robbie Fowler has spoken about as among the best natural goal scorer, I suppose, but I mean, I agree with Ollie in the sense that it's. Everything he does is just so emphatic. So I was trying to, to think of, you know, what would be the best goal scorer in the, in the Premier League era in terms of more the aesthetic. But if you do give him a chance, it doesn't matter whether it goes in the, the corner, in off the post, in the top corner or just right through the middle of the goal, he's just, everything he does is just emphatic. And you can be pretty certain that when he does get those chances, aside from one, which I think was against Arsenal where he basically saved it rather than scored it, but he gets those sometimes there's the volume of chances that he gets as well because he gets, gets into such good positions with his movement. But it doesn't matter how it goes in, as long as it goes in. He's just emphatic every time. So in terms of how clinical he is, you struggle to find anyone better in the numbers as well. As much as anything with the amount of games that he's played and the goals that he scored, it's frightening. And the idea that he was maybe dropping off ever society after last season is just nonsensical when you think about this season.

D (55:05)

It's just the haters. We know that. Anyway, gents, let's leave it there. Oli, Mark, thank you for your time and also Thomas for joining us at the top of the pod as well. We'll be back soon.

C (55:18)

You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabreau and Jay Beale. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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