← The Athletic FC Podcast
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- [00:00]
Adam Leventhal
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- [01:11]
Podcast Announcer
The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It'll be the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. So get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package. Closer to the action in the best seats and suites, closer to matchday elevated with world class food and entertainment closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package@fifaworldcup.com hospitality. That's fifaworldcup.com hospitality.
- [01:42]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. I'm Adam Leventhal. Already this week we've looked at the global game and the unstoppable power of the Premier League. But a away from the top flight, there are 72 other professional clubs across England's football league and some are fighting to survive. So what does their future hold and what can be done to redress the balance? Well, joining me today, as he has been throughout this Future of Football series, is Matt Slater. And we're also joined by a very special guest, the chairman of the English Football League, the efl, that is Rick Parry. Rick, thanks very much for coming on. How's the start of the season been for you?
- [02:25]
Rick Parry
Terrific. Yeah. Where attendances are looking good. The football's exciting. So going to be another long but very exciting season.
- [02:35]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And I hope from your point of view it's not going to be too challenging. I wanted you to assess the general health of the EFL because there is some. There's some good, there's some bad, there's some ugly as well, isn't there?
- [02:48]
Rick Parry
Yeah, I Think it really depends whether we're focusing on the macro or the Microsoft, because if we're looking at individual club level, there are always challenges. Clearly Sheffield Wednesday, near the top of the pile at the moment, but in years gone by, if it's not Sheffield Wednesday, it could be Reading, it could be Derby, it could be Wigan, it could be Bolton, it could be Macclesfield or Oldham. So, you know, there's always a challenge or two. But then if we look at more broadly, then the whole system is under stress and really not fit for purpose because of, you know, it's our age old point about making clubs sustainable. And making clubs sustainable means that we've got to look at the way that funds flow through the game. But I think the big challenge clubs have at the moment it's extraordinarily difficult to be both competitive and sustainable. And that's a horrible choice to have to make because at the end of the day it's all about the game, it's all about winning, but it's also about trying to preserve clubs for future generations as well. And that's the bit that's challenging. And unless we change the system, then there's always going to be a struggle.
- [04:01]
Adam Leventhal
For people who aren't necessarily au fait with the English Football League, the efl, that are maybe listening for the first time and hearing your voice for the first time, for someone in such a senior role to come on and within their first answer say that the system isn't fit for purpose, they will be licking, listening and going, hold up. Did he just say that? Okay, so you've said it. What's the solution? What needs to change?
- [04:25]
Rick Parry
Well, we have been saying it pretty much every day for the last four years. So the solutions are fairly straightforward in our view. We've got to have a proper rethink about how the funds are distributed because I don't want to bore you to death with stats, but I will. And Matt heard these before, but it's the way the game has grown and diverged that is the challenge. So if you go back to 92, 93, the year we formed the Premier League, turnover of the Premier League was 45 million, which seems like a pretty small sum these days. It seemed like a lot of money then. The turnover of the FL was 34 million, the gap was 11 million. Or put another way, the EFL's turnover was 75% of the Premier Leagues. The gap now is in excess of 3 billion and the EFL's turnover is 6% of the premier League's So if we want healthy pyramid where clubs can rise and fall without facing financial catastrophe, and it should be about sporting jeopardy without financial catastrophe. But if we value the pyramid, if we value the fact that There have been 50 different clubs in the Premier League during its life, six have been there forever and 44 haven't, but that's more than three clubs per place for all the others. If we value that, then we've got to remove some of that stress because it's becoming incredibly difficult to rise up and down through the pyramid without facing major financial problems. So we would say that provided we do value the pyramid, provided we think it matters, we think it does, and we think a lot of people think that it does, then we've got to look afresh at how the money flows.
- [06:06]
Matt Slater
Rick, you've already got into the question I was going to ask you. We spent yesterday's podcast talking about the relative power of the Premier League versus the rest of the big European leagues, right. And about how the Premier League is onwards and upwards, great success story, no question of that. Should all be proud of it and is moving away and is causing concern around the continent. Of course, you are kind of connected to them. You are seeing them, you've been watching them. You're in the other seat not that long ago. And of course you worked for Liverpool too, so you've witnessed this growing chasm between top flight and second tier and you've talked about the strains. I'm just going to ask a sort of slightly devil's advocate question. You've just done an amazing TV deal, I think. I can't remember if you're the fifth or sixth best financed league in Europe now, aren't you? You're right up there. You've got a load of billionaires, millionaires around the table. You've got a pretty good story to tell. What's the problem?
- [07:09]
Rick Parry
So that TV deal increased the EFL's turnover by, let's say 60 million, which was a great deal for us and it was a big increase. The Premier League's inflationary increase from one year to the next was 140 million. So even though we've got a great TV deal that we're very proud of, it was an increase of 50%. The gap is still getting bigger because the Premier League is starting from such an extraordinarily high base now. And you mentioned Europe, the Premier League is paying two and a quarter times more in wages than the other major leagues. So is it any wonder that it attracts all the talent? The issue we would say One of the issues, we would say, is it actually doesn't need to be paying that much more in order to attract that talent. It could actually afford to share a bit more with us.
- [08:02]
Matt Slater
Yes, well, let's get onto that, because, of course, I think it's about five years ago that you proposed, well, you were linked with Project Big Picture, this idea to really reshape the game in terms of its governance, but also in terms of its financial distribution. And I think it was being driven by Liverpool and Manchester United. Controversial deal. It didn't. It didn't. It didn't go through. But one of the key bits, I think the bit that excited you or interested you was a sharing of the whole pot. Put everything in one pot and 25% should go to the FL. And of course, that didn't go through. I know you like that 25% number. And we spent the last few years waiting for this new deal from the Premier League.
- [08:45]
Rick Parry
Their.
- [08:46]
Matt Slater
Their offer to you. It hasn't happened. Why?
- [08:50]
Rick Parry
I think it's a really good question, but I think there's a really interesting structural point here when, again, we're looking at solutions and looking at the sort of change we might need to make. So, predating the Premier League. In the last years of the old football league with its 92 members, first division took 75% of the TV money, the other three divisions had 25%, which is exactly what we've been asking for now, it's not the reason we're asking for it now. It is a happy coincidence, but I think one of the really interesting things, structurally, is that what you then have was 92 clubs in one league, so they actually have a responsibility to the league that they're in. Now we have two leagues, and it's understandable that the clubs in those leagues have a responsibility to the leagues that they are in. So the members of the Premier League are voting on behalf of the Premier League, members of the EFL voting on behalf of the efl. There is no forum in which people are voting for the good of the game. Nobody's looking at the totality. There is no forum in which the pyramid comes together to vote to say what is right for the pyramid. So instead of a vote, and nobody's saying it was easy getting votes through the 92. I mean, that's why we formed the Breakaway in the first place, because things were stifled. But we've had a whole succession of ministers, about five of them, repeatedly saying, just go and do a deal with the Premier League. Well, a deal. What have we got to trade. How are we supposed to do a deal? We can't threaten to go and attach ourselves to La Liga if we're not happy with, you know, we are in the English pyramid. So why should the Premier League do a deal with us? You know, why shouldn't they continue to have parachute payments? Why shouldn't they continue to have clubs moving upwards and downwards repeatedly? Well, you know, the logical answer is that's not terribly good for them. Not great for look for the Premier League that three clubs are going up and coming straight back down again. Because to make the competition attractive, you need competition at the top. You need competition and uncertainty down at the bottom. You don't need to know by February which clubs are going to be relegated. And the Premier League has always made much, and I've always thought it was a myth, but they've always made much of the competitive balance and the fact that anybody can beat anybody. Well, not really. I mean, we always used to say that you needed 40 points to guarantee staying in the Premier League. Not anymore. You need about 25. So that gap is widening, that gulp is growing and that will impact on the value of the Premier League.
- [11:32]
Adam Leventhal
A question I wanted to ask you and it's interesting you bring it up in terms of what does the EFL have when trying to make a deal with the Premier League League? Is one of the things that you have now the opportunity for a Wrexham to happen at Birmingham, albeit it's a different sort of level to Wrexham, but for that to happen. So you are the gateway drug to the Premier League almost. Is that something that's on your sort of list of pros when you can negotiate or is it just impossible to negotiate with the Premier League?
- [12:10]
Rick Parry
It's one of the strengths of the efl. It's one of the things that makes EFL exciting. And of course we do have some great stories in terms of Nottingham Forest going up and now being in Europe, Brentford and Brighton coming up and staying. Luton was a wonderful story in terms of, you know, when we were forming the Premier League and taking massive votes on TV deals and constitution, the Premier League Luton were In the old First Division and voting got relegated end of 91, 92, didn't actually join the Premier League but 30 plus years later via the National League, lo and behold, Luton finally found a way into the Premier League which is a, you know, that's a wonderful story. It sums up the attraction of the pyramid. The danger is that Birmingham, Wrexham, great stories, brilliant stories. We want more great stories. The danger is the cynics would say, well, so what's the problem? Why do you need redistribution? Because it all looks fine. But you can't work on the basis of the outliers exceptions. What we need is greater opportunities for all in the championship.
- [13:16]
Matt Slater
But, Rick, just to pick up on that point about outliers and the danger of small numbers, if you like, when you're trying to make big arguments, I know the last two years have not looked great in terms of the relegation battle, right? Three ups, three straight down, and they've been miles off. So you can have historically bad seasons for an established Pimberley club and there'd be no jeopardy. That's not good. That's not good for anyone trying to sell anything for trying to keep my attention. However, it is just two seasons, the season before, three seasons ago. I think all three stayed up. I know we've had two bad seasons, but I think it's only three times in the history of the Premier League that the three promoted teams have gone down. So, okay, the trend's not great, but should we not rush the judgment here?
- [14:05]
Rick Parry
The point is matic now, and when we look at the probability of parachute clubs being promoted, which is extraordinarily high, you know, parachute clubs are now at least five times more likely to get promoted than other clubs because over the last seven years, two out of the parachute clubs or two out of the three promoted clubs have been parachute clubs. So depending on how many parachute clubs there are at any one point in time, which is kind of four or five at the moment, you know, they've either got a 50% or a 40% chance of being promoted straight back to the Premier League, whereas everybody else has got between a 5 and a 10% chance. So that's not last two years, that's the last six or seven years. And the Premier League says, yeah, but the last 20 years, the average is X. Well, what happened 20 years ago really doesn't matter because it's that explosion in the value of the Premier League's TV rights when we've broadly stood still that has caused the problem. So if you go back to the decade 2001 to 2010, on average, the total value of the parachute payments were around 12, 13% of the total turnover of all of the 24 Championship clubs. That's still quite an impact, but by 2021, it's 38%. I mean, that is cuckoo in the nest. The parachute payments alone, not the value of the turnover, the parachute clubs, the parachute payments alone, 38% of the entire turnover of the 24 Championship clubs. That's a huge impact and that's grown because they're a percentage of the Premier League's TV deal. And the Premier League's TV deal has gone up and up and up and up. And notwithstanding the great success of our deal last year, you know, we're still just way, way off the pace and a very small percentage of the, of the Premier League. So, you know, how are you supposed to deal with that sort of impact? It's incredibly challenging. But I mean, the thing we set great store by, the thing that we're really excited about in terms of how do we move things forward. We now have a regulator. Well, sorry, we have an act. We have the act of Parliament. Very soon, we hope we'll have a formal announcement of who the regulator is. And the thing that we've been really supportive of in the last few years and very supportive of now is the state of the game review. Because forget the three of us arguing and I'll have one point of view, you might have another. The Premier League will definitely have another. But for the first time ever, we're having a proper, independent, objective and comprehensive analysis of the state of the game. So all these things will be drawn out, all the facts, all the figures will be, will be set out and analysed and then hopefully we can make decisions on the basis of fact and analysis rather than self interest and emotion.
- [17:05]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, well that's for the future. In the shorter term, after the break, we are going to be talking about how important the EFL is to the national team and much more.
- [17:20]
Podcast Announcer
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal. The FIFA World Cup 26 is coming to North America next summer. It'll be the ultimate celebration of sports and culture. So get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package. Closer to the action in the best seats and suites. Closer to matchday elevated with world class food and entertainment, Closer to the experience of a lifetime. Book a hospitality package@fifaworldcup.com hospitality. That's fifaworldcup.com hospitality. This is a paid advert by BetterHelp, the sponsor for this episode of the Athletic FC. We've all done it. Turning to our barista, our hairdresser or a random stranger in the bathroom for life advice. As fun as these people are to talk with about everyday topics. When you're looking for help about relationships, anxiety, depression or other clinical issues, they may not have all the right answers. Instead, get guidance from a licensed therapist online with BetterHelp. BetterHelp has been helping people find their match for over 10 years and have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. BetterHelp is convenient too and fits into your busy life. You can join a session by phone or video with a therapist at the click of a button. And you can pause your subscription whenever you need to and switch therapists at any time at no extra cost. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp because you listen to this podcast, you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com fcpodcast that's B E W-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com fcpodcast One last time betterhelp.com FC podcast.
- [19:04]
Matt Slater
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- [19:07]
Rick Parry
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- [19:08]
Adam Leventhal
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Matt Slater
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- [19:18]
Adam Leventhal
Really that's great news. High five everybody.
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Matt Slater
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Rick Parry
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- [19:32]
Rick Parry
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- [19:40]
Adam Leventhal
So the chairman of the efl, Rick Parry is with us. And Rick, I wanted to just sort of talk about the England side because during this current international break, 18 of Thomas Tuchel's 24 man squad have played in the EFL during their careers with a total of over 1500 EFL games between them. Do you think that there is an appreciation of that pathway at the top level and it is adequately rewarded?
- [20:11]
Rick Parry
Clearly there's an appreciation and an understanding and of course that comes about in two ways. It comes about through players starting their career lower down the pyramid and then rising or more likely players having lone experience with EFL clubs. And the one thing that loans offer which is absolutely vital from a development point of view is competitive football. It's incredibly difficult within the academy system to make people ready for the Premier League. It's an enormous step up from academy to first team. Some players make the leap seamlessly. You know you get the Michael Owens, you get the Wayne Rooney's. Arsenal are doing incredibly well in terms of bringing players straight through. But then you look at players like Harry Kane who's had loan spells. So that ability to go out and spend time in the efl. Plus of course you get players who've been down with relegated clubs and then bouncing back up again. But that ability to experience proper competitive, grown up football is a really important phase of development.
- [21:25]
Adam Leventhal
And in terms of a, you know, we spoke about bargaining chips for the EFL when they're trying to, when you're trying to get a bit more money or quite a lot more money. Is that one that resonates with Premier League sides? Does it sort of speak to their. Well, maybe it's difficult with different ownership groups, but to their sort of sense of traditionalism and knowing the, the English game that, yeah, we should be giving maybe more to the pyramid.
- [21:54]
Rick Parry
To be fair, I think a lot of them acknowledge the importance of the pyramid and the need to have a degree of fairness. I don't think there are too many who are saying, no, the pyramid doesn't deserve a penny more. And by the way, this isn't about the FL versus the Premier League. It's not about the AFL trying to put our hands in the Premier League's pocket. It is all about the value of a proper pyramid from top to bottom. And I include the National League in that because we have to look downwards as well as upwards. I think that's really important. It's the totality of the pyramid, which is uniquely English and one of its great strengths. And I don't think there are many people who would say we don't care, we're not interested. The challenge is then when it comes to the detail and voting on what the deal is actually going to be and actually trying to get a proposition over the line, which is something the Premier League hasn't been able to do yet.
- [22:51]
Adam Leventhal
We touched upon it in part one and I wanted to dig into it a little bit more in terms of the big sort of notable stories in the EFL and the positivity that can come from that, the likes of Wrexham, the likes of Birmingham, the fact that these stories are now being told on a different medium, different in terms of, you know, being on streaming platforms and being almost sold as, as packages and, and dreams and we can follow along in series. Are you guarded against other people wanting to come in for that ride or are you sort of an open house and you, you want people to come in and try and take, you know, a Luton town back all the way up again or, you know, a. Whoever Morecambe. I know they dropped out and they were in a lot of trouble, but someone like that, you know, are you open to that? Or are you skeptical of it?
- [23:45]
Rick Parry
No, of course we're open to it, but we have to maintain a healthy skepticism because we can't just be thinking one or two years ahead. We've got to. We've got to think about making clubs sustainable in the long term. What we're not looking for is boom and bust. We've had individuals who've come in and who've done brilliantly for their clubs. You know, you look at Mel Morris, for example, at Derby, who would have thought he was anything other than an absolutely perfect owner? Local businessman, done really well putting money back into his club, putting in excess of 200 million back into his club and then couldn't anymore. And the problem with owner funding, it's brilliant. Until the day it isn't. So the Mel Morris, the Eddie Davises at Bolton, Jack Walker, all good things come to an end. And the challenge we have is picking up the pieces when it does come to an end. And not everybody can get up into the Premier League. By definition, we can't have 72 Wrexhams in Birminghams. It's just not realistic. It's not going to happen. They're outliers and by definition, outliers are in the minority and it's brilliant. And of course we welcome innovation, we welcome new ideas, we welcome new people, because that reflects the popularity of the pyramid and the excitement that people have about the pyramid, which is marvelous. But as I said, it can't just be about another owner coming in with ambition because one day those owners won't be there. And it's putting in place a system that guards against the challenges when they either don't want to continue funding or they can't continue funding. And frankly, there's enough money flowing into the game at the top end of the funnel to try and make sure that people can be competitive and sustainable.
- [25:46]
Matt Slater
One of the key parts of the Premier League success story, of course, is their international rights, how popular the Premier League is abroad and how they've monetized that. I'm not suggesting for one minute that the EFL can run around and do billion dollar deals in China and the States and what have you. But can you do a bit better abroad? I know things have got better. There's a good CBS deal that has been done and you've obviously just done this partnership with Relevant or you're using Relevant, this big sports agency in the States that we've talked about on this podcast before. They are now handling, I think, your media rights just in North America or is it global? Your One.
- [26:24]
Rick Parry
No. North America.
- [26:25]
Matt Slater
North America. Okay, so look, so clearly that's where the focus is, that North American market. And you've got a lot of American owners. We've just North American owners. So what more can be done?
- [26:38]
Rick Parry
We are doing more and we deliberately partnered with Relevant to help us to do more. The American owners are very keen that we do more. And that is very much a focus and we will continue to focus on that. But again, when you're facing a 3 billion gap, it doesn't really scratch the surface. We can make a difference. You know, we increased our TV deal by 50%, which was marvelous, but that is 60 million pounds. That is a minuscule bite out of the Premier League's TV money. If we're really to make a difference, then it has to be about fairer shares flowing downwards. We will continue to do our utmost. We will build on the success of the efl. And I said, this isn't about handouts or charity. It's about the importance of the pyramid to English football, whether that be providing players for the England team, whether that be providing better teams going up and competing within the Premier League. It's about making the entire pyramid sustainable. We will continue to do our bit, but at the end of the day, it has to be. What we're all trying to do is to maximize the income generated by the English game as a whole. We're doing our bit on that. But then it's, how is the pie divided? That's. That's the big challenge.
- [28:07]
Matt Slater
I'm just. I'm intrigued. I mean, I like your point that you're not asking for handouts. You know, you are trying to do your bit. In our last pod, when we were looking at the, you know, the power of the Premier League and we were talking about this relative strength it has compared to the rest of Europe, and I was making the point that other leagues are having to take experiments with their broadcast deals, be it streaming partners or watch alongs with popular influencers, et cetera, et cetera, or. Or taking games abroad. The Premier League as the top dog doesn't need to do that. At the moment. I'm wondering if the efl, I'm probably talking about the championship, really is in the same position in some ways as La Liga and Serie A and the rest of them. Right. And that you should be experimenting, you should be, you know, you've got all these American owners, dare I say, competitive game abroad, or scrapping the 3pm blackout and sticking your entire inventory out there, going direct to consumer. Are you having Those sorts of conversations.
- [29:12]
Rick Parry
Without generating lurid headlines.
- [29:15]
Matt Slater
We like lurid headlines.
- [29:17]
Rick Parry
We are looking at a host of different things going forwards. One of the things, of course, that we pioneered many years ago and it came to the fore during lockdown, was high follow and streaming. So we've actually been doing it very successfully. And our sky deal, of course, has built upon that because sky have essentially said, here are the numbers that we've seen on iFollow. This is incredibly successful. We'd now like to come in and partner with you and give all of that a boost. So we've got a blend on sky essentially of the full match coverage aid and abetted by streaming. And the one thing I would say, and we have said repeatedly, is we ought to be working together with the Premier League because it's really difficult for the Premier League to experiment because it's such a risk. You know, how can they afford to step away from linear TV when it's so valuable? So we should be a test bed for the Premier League in terms of what the new technologies will be, what the new opportunities will be, using the championship, using the playoff games, using the relegation battles, packaging relegation battles and promotion battles. The story of, you know, the route to the top in English football. These are all the sorts of things we should be doing. It shouldn't be, well, the EFL is going to go away and experiment. It should be English football is looking to the future, looking at new strategies. And as I said, the EFL is the ideal testbed. We can do things that the Premier League can't. You mentioned Saturday blackout. That requires cooperation between the Premier League and us. We should be talking jointly about the pros and the cons. And in many ways, when you think about it, the very fact that we have to go head to head with the Premier League in the TV market, or we pick up the crumbs from whatever's left, or we do really well with a deal. Because it just happened that we managed to go before the Premier League for once, so extracted a premium from Sky. Why are we doing this separately? I mean, it's just barmy in many ways. A degree of more collectiveness, togetherness. Solving the problems of English football rather than doing things in isolation seems to me to be so much more sensible.
- [31:40]
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Rick Parry
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- [32:11]
Matt Slater
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Rick Parry
My business up for the 5 year price lock guarantee and I can't stop high fiving people.
- [32:18]
Matt Slater
That's perfectly natural when you sign up for gig speed, Internet and advanced security locked in at a great rate for five years.
- [32:24]
Adam Leventhal
Really? That's great news. High five everybody.
- [32:26]
Matt Slater
The Comcast Business five year Price Lock Guarantee is back, but only for a limited time.
- [32:31]
Rick Parry
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Rick Parry
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- [33:33]
Podcast Announcer
This is the Athletic FC podcast with Adam Leventhal.
- [33:37]
Adam Leventhal
Rick, I know you've said on a couple of occasions this isn't about the EFL against the Premier League, but to be brutally honest, I'm hearing a lot of we could, we should, perhaps we might be. It seems as if they're not coming to the table with what you would like them to be coming to the table with. And people would argue that. Why would they? They're separated off on the side of the fence where the grass is green. They've got a massive swimming pool, they've got a golf course and you know, their own fishing lake. They don't need to come over to your side of the fence. So why do you think that this is ever going to change?
- [34:16]
Rick Parry
Well, we have a regulator for one thing, so we do now have an independent view. And I think the other thing that's really interesting and again, this is not suggesting that we're about to march on the courts of London in any way, shape or form. But there's been a whole series of really interesting court cases, competition law cases in recent years. The European Super League case, the Agents case, the Associated Party transactions cases, which now appear to have been settled. But there's a fascinating trend across those. And the trend is, first of all, that competition authorities are starting to interfere in sport in a way that for over a decade they just didn't. There was the famous Mecca Medina case where it was essentially deemed that sport knew best how to run sport and the courts let them get on with it. A bit of a coach and horses has been driven through that with stricter application of competition law. How might that be relevant in terms of our landscape? Well, first of all, if you look at the Super League case, very critical of UEFA and its processes for taking decisions, but it also touched very specifically on the collective selling of TV rights. And collective selling is inherently anti competitive. It is a restriction of competition by object. It is the abuse of a dominant position. And the courts and the EU and governments allow it because there are benefits that outweigh the narrow competition law points. But what the European court said in the Super League case was we understand that solidarity, which means money flowing downwards and the way that money is distributed within a league is important, but if it really is to justify continuing collective selling, then it has to be supported by economic and accounting evidence. It's no use just saying we have solidarity, therefore collective selling is okay. National courts will have to take decisions as to whether the amount of solidarity is indeed sufficient. And then on the other cases, we've seen any number of references to the need for economic analysis, proper evidence in decision taking, particularly in the apt case. So if one wanted to speculate as to where is the economic analysis that supported parachute payments, I've never seen any, never seen any at all. Premier League decides what they are and then the game is stuck with them. So the fact that we've got again coming back to state the game review this proper analysis and we have made the point that those undertaking the state the game review must take into account competition law trends and be aware of the direction the law is taking. This needs. I mean, listen, it does need an independent view. It's really challenging getting the Premier League clubs to think about what's going down at the bottom of the pyramid. I get that, I've been there. They have other priorities, they've got other challenges. An independent view which is actually saying, let's look at all of the evidence base, let's be clinical, let's be analytical about all of this and let's have a look at what's actually right for the game as a whole. That's what's needed. It's not us in the Premier League going head to head in sort of undignified squabbles.
- [37:46]
Matt Slater
I'm going to try one more attempt at a lurid headline. You've teed me up, Rick. Three up, three down from the National League. Come on. You've got to look down as well as up. You've got a responsibility to the.
- [37:58]
Rick Parry
Yeah, we. Absolutely, Matt, we do acknowledge the need to look downwards and, well, as upwards. The point we've made is that we're more than happy to look at it, but we want to look at it as part of the total solution. In terms of the cost controls, the measures at the National League have actually gone in place and looking at money flowing downwards because obviously the National League is all part of the regulated system as well. So what we don't want to be doing is plucking bits out in isolation as part of a total solution where we've got redistribution, better regulation. We're more than happy to look at three up, three down, because we've got to be fair and I have no issue with it at all. I suspect the majority of our clubs won't. We haven't put it formally to the vote, but the mood is, yes, we're happy to look at change, but let's look at the total package.
- [38:54]
Adam Leventhal
Throughout this series, Rick, we've examined the state of play from the top of the European game, including this summer's Club World cup, you know, the global game, the financial dominance of the Premier League. Obviously, we've been talking about the impact on. On the efl. From your point of view, looking at the broader picture, do you see the future of football being a positive one, heading in the right direction? Or is it one, considering all the different hats that you've worn, that is almost doomed to be immersed in conflict at every turn?
- [39:30]
Rick Parry
Had we been having this debate in 1985, you'd have been posing the same question. And football was definitely mired then in conflict and controversy, and the split that finally happened then was the formation of the Premier League. But the game is extraordinarily resilient and the game thrives despite the people running it. So will the underlying popularity of the game survive? I'm absolutely convinced that it will. Will there be a host of challenges ahead? Yes, of course there will, because there always are. It's the nature of the game, the nature of the people involved. Everything's always on a cliff edge. The pace of change is always increasing. But will it go from strength to strength? Yes, I believe it will. Will it be different? Yes, of course it will. How will the next generation consume their entertainment? Will they Be sitting down in front of a TV and consuming a 90 minute game? Almost certainly not.
- [40:34]
Adam Leventhal
But that's already happening, isn't it? Rick, when you said, yes, we had problems back in 1985 and it was sort of similar, is there not a danger that, you know, people of our respective generations are sort of just sleepwalking and saying, well, yeah, it'll be all right, it will be all right. Hasn't the world completely changed where the attention span is, you know, minute in comparison to back in the day where there was a desire to go and watch 90 minutes of live football? Things have completely changed now, haven't they?
- [41:03]
Rick Parry
They have. And yet at our level, attendances are at an all time record. We're getting younger audiences coming into the game. You've mentioned the likes of Wrexham and Birmingham and said, what is the capacity? How much scope is there for more of that? There are huge positives, challenges ahead. Absolutely. Big challenges. Yes, indeed, big challenges at an international level for sure. But is there a path to be navigated? I think there is. And as I said, I actually think without any sense of complacency, the game, the inherent popularity, the simplicity, the passion that the game still generates is there. The day that we lose the passion, the day that we lose all of the talking points, that, that is a time to, to worry. But you know, the 1980s, with times when we had hooliganism, when we had a host of problems, we had dilapidated stadiums, we had concerns from the English point of view about a drain of talent to, to Italy, which is, which is really what was the catalyst for the Premier League in the first place. So, and people have said repeatedly the bubble will burst. Well, it hasn't. And I've never quite got the thing about the bubble bursting. Of course everybody's cautious about future TV revenues, about fragmentation, about changing nature of broadcasting, linear broadcasting versus streaming, et cetera, et cetera, but for me that just brings about opportunity. It's not as if there are no broadcasters. There are more forms of entertainment, there are host of different ways, you know, 1980s, who'd have thought, who would have thought we'd have been consuming football on a telephone? People would have laughed if somebody had said, that's the, you know, that's the future. And I've always seen it as more of a balloon that might deflate rather than burst. So supposing we have a fall off in revenue, but we'll have a fall off in revenue and we'll deal with it. What'll happen is the wages will decrease and there'll be an adjustment. And you know, it's. Other countries are seeing that, they're seeing a reduction in their TV income, but they're surviving. Premier League is right up there, miles ahead of everybody at the moment. Can absolutely understand the concern of the other European countries. Can absolutely understand that. You know, there might be some form of reaction against that. Who knows whether the French, the Italians, the Spanish and the Germans will club together and form a new lead to try and rival the Premier League. It's very, very dangerous to say never in football, but can we rise to the challenges. Because I think the common thread we've all touched on is the level of interest in English football at the moment, at whatever level is pretty much unprecedented. Huge opportunities, how we navigate that, how we make the most of them. Time will tell, but we've got some pretty smart people in the game. We've got a lot of, a lot of people who've invested a lot of money in the English game who have a very clear vested interest in making sure that we make it work. So I. Well, you have to be an optimist in football. But I see the future as being.
- [44:30]
Matt Slater
Bright just to finish on a hopefully optimistic note. And I do quite like the idea of. I've scribbled that one down. The continental European Super League. Do a podcast on that, Rick. Don't you worry. An optimistic note, right? I think in one of your early answers you talked about, you know, no forum for these sort of discussions and no one's really thinking collegiately anymore. And you know, you've won lots of hats, Rick. You've seen both sides. No one's kidding you, right? Because you've run the Premier League, you've run a big club at Liverpool. Do we have to wait for the regulator to sort this out? I know the regulator can sort it out and I know David Cogan's a really competent guy and he wants to crack on. But is it too late for you and Richard Masters, Trevor Burch, your CEO, and you know, to get around the table and say, come on, let's have a football led, an industry led deal here, we can still do this. Or is it too late?
- [45:27]
Rick Parry
It is late. And you know that level sitting around the table amicably, sensibly, talking constructively is absolutely fine. The challenge is when it's getting 14 votes within the Premier League. That's where it's fallen down repeatedly. Either because there are different priorities, there are elements of the deal that people don't like. So I think without that external force, that external catalyst now, where did the threat of that is sufficient? Because I think for a long time the Premier League thought the regulator wouldn't happen. They clearly didn't want it to happen and I think there were periods when it was doubtful. What at least we now have is clarity. Whatever we might think, it has happened and it is now with us. So whether that will bring people to the table or whether they will think, well, why bother? We'll just wait for the regulator now. I mean, I would prefer clearly to see a football solution, but equally, we are very, very happy to take our chances with the state of the game review. We're more than happy to have proper economic analysis, rational thought rather than horse trades and inadequate deals. Because what we really want is to get this right for the long term. We don't want to be back every three years arguing and trading and chipping. What we would like is a proper thought through solution. I mean, who would have thought 30 years ago that when we came up with the 50, 25, 25 formula for the sharing of money within the Premier League and we did it within two hours, by the way, it didn't take four and a half years. Who would have thought that would stand the test of time for 30 years? What we'd love to see is something equivalent where we have a sharing that we're not going to be arguing about every five minutes. We put it away, life goes on and we have something in 30 years time we'll look back at. Well, I won't be looking back in 30 years time, but people will look back in 30 years time and say, well, that was a pretty smart thing to do. That was a watershed moment for the game.
- [47:48]
Adam Leventhal
Well, Rick, it's been an absolute pleasure getting your thoughts on this episode. We really appreciate your time. Thanks very much for coming on.
- [47:55]
Rick Parry
Yep, no problem. Thank you.
- [47:56]
Matt Slater
Thank you, Rick.
- [48:01]
Adam Leventhal
So, Matt, we've now reached the end of our journey on this Future of Football series over these three podcasts. Let's just reflect, if we can, over the last three episodes, I mean, first and foremost, Rick has now gone so we can talk about him. What did you make of what he had to say? His overriding feeling of where the EFL stand.
- [48:19]
Matt Slater
Well, as ever with Rick, he's very honest and I think he's very good. He has got his finger on the pulse and that shouldn't come as any surprise. He was the first chief executive of the Premier League. He went through his greatest hits a bit. The big takeaway from me, I suppose, if I was to boil it all down is that he is waiting for the regulator. Now, everyone seems quite happy just to wait for the regulator to do this. First truly independent with teeth assessment, state of the game report and then everyone will know that the landscape will be there and the Premier League, the clubs, all the different constituent parts of the Premier League, because we shouldn't pretend that they are this homogenous group that all agree. They don't. And sometimes the Premier League HQ doesn't agree with the clubs frequently. But everyone at least will know what this independent person with power thinks is the state of the game. And from that basis, Rick Parry, Richard Masters, etc, etc will do their deal. I think that's the bit that I took from Rick, that he is now quite happy and his clubs are quite happy to wait.
- [49:29]
Adam Leventhal
And for people who aren't necessarily au fait with with what that regulator means, how binding will any guidance be?
- [49:39]
Matt Slater
Well, it's binding, that's the point. That's what's changed. We now have an independent regulator who, if push comes to shove and it's already happened and it's still loads of pushing and shoving, they will say, stop, give us your best deal, Premier League efl. Right, no, here's what we're doing. You will send this much money down the pipe. That's what's changed.
- [50:02]
Adam Leventhal
And if we take in what we also discussed on the other two episodes, the first one, you know, a big focus on the. On the global club game. And then obviously, you know, the second one, we spoke with James Horncastle and the guys at Deloitte about the power of the Premier League. When you talk about the traditional idealism of the pyramid in England, do you think that that's the belief of the people that are at actually running the game, the Shefferins and Infantino who've been sharing a football pitch over the last week, you know, playing a game with FIFA and UEFA and they seem to be friends once again, you know, do you think that that's actually what they're thinking about when they're maybe more focused on pumping as much money as they can, maybe from nation states into the coffers of their members? The traditional side of it is lovely, but is it actually what's going to happen in the future?
- [51:05]
Matt Slater
I don't. Look, they'll probably say they do. Right. If we think about the whole podcast series, for me, football has reached this incredible level of popularity. I mean, almost unprecedented in history in terms of cultural pursuits. It's so big, it commands the attention of really powerful people. He's clearly doing a lot Right. But there are little kind of border skirmishes everywhere. FIFA versus UEFA for kind of control of the club game. FIFA versus everyone for control of the calendar. Because increasingly it's about time, it's about attention. That's what we're in, this attention economy. We see it in other sports too, but football, this fight for space, where your thing, be it a club, World cup, be it the Champions League, be it Premier League, whatever it is, just has a moment that's I think going to be huge. And then I think the other thing was really what we were talking about a lot in our second podcast, which is after this long period of almost unfettered globalization, unfettered capitalism, there's winners and losers. The Premier League is clearly one of the very biggest winners. And what does everyone else do about that? The other leagues are all going, wow, we appear to have lost. So what do we do? Do we just focus on our super clubs and just, you know, let the rest of our domestic leagues dwindle? Do we have to go abroad? Do we have to take these experimental things we were discussing? Do we, do we need to, you know, be really kind of innovative with our broadcasting deals? Do we need to do super leagues? Do we need to do cross border leagues? Those, I think the things. So it's, it's, it's FIFA versus UEFA for kind of control of the club game. It's Premier League versus everyone for, I don't know, becoming the kind of dominant league. So there's lots of these little kind of tensions and that's. That, I think, is the future. And then of course there's stuff that applies beyond football. You know, the power of phones, what, how our kids are going to consume entertainment. Is football always going to have this lofty position? So it's that kind of the thing I was asking if you like your Tim Bridges of the World at Deloitte's, if you are the, the kind of old fashioned Roman servant slave whispering in the ear of the emperor as they go through the triumphal arch right now, what are you saying? What's the warning? What is, what's the thing that can go wrong in five years?
- [53:35]
Rick Parry
I don't know.
- [53:39]
Adam Leventhal
Well, that's the thing and that's. We've contemplated that question, I suppose, over this last three episodes. But as we know, and as you've said there, the battles off the field are as hotly contested as they are on the field. And knowing exactly where we are going to be in five years is going to be fascinating to see. I think we will probably have to revisit this series on a fairly regular basis because it is moving and developing very, very quickly. But Matt, thank you very much indeed.
- [54:14]
Matt Slater
No problem at all.
- [54:15]
Adam Leventhal
So that wraps up our series. Please do get in touch with your thoughts on the topics and thanks for the messages that you've sent so far. It's been really interesting to get your views. If you want to continue to send them in on the future of football, continue the conversation on Spotify, on the Athletic app, wherever you get your podcast or you can Even email us tafcpodeathletic.com thank you very much for listening and we'll catch you next time.
- [54:45]
Rick Parry
You'Ve been.
- [54:45]
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Rick Parry
Yep.
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Adam Leventhal
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- [56:11]
Rick Parry
Par le tu francais?
- [56:12]
Adam Leventhal
Hablas espanol? Par l'?
- [56:14]
Rick Parry
Italiano?
- [56:15]
Matt Slater
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