The Athletic FC Podcast: "Why Wirtz is Struggling at Liverpool"

Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Seb Stafford-Bloor (The Athletic's German football writer), Kev Hatchard (Bundesliga commentator)
Special Guest: Jan Åge Fjørtoft (ex-Premier League/Bundesliga striker, broadcaster)

Overview

This episode delves into Florian Wirtz's high-profile move to Liverpool, exploring why the Bundesliga sensation has struggled to replicate his Leverkusen form early in his Premier League career. Through expert analysis and context from both German and English perspectives, the panel unpacks the complex reasons behind Wirtz’s adaptation struggles, compares Bundesliga-to-Premier League transitions, and addresses broader questions about the Bundesliga’s role as a talent pipeline.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: Wirtz’s Slow Start at Liverpool

• Eight games into his Liverpool tenure: No goals or assists yet ([01:36])
• Transfer context: British record fee (£116M, surpassed by Isak), massive expectations
• Team-wide adaptation issues: Liverpool as a whole yet to gel after several personnel changes

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“He’s still a function and was always a function of how Bayer Leverkusen played... I just think like everybody at Liverpool individually he's been a bit sort of sick. 7 out of 10." ([02:25])

2. Are Expectations Too High?

• Chance creation: Wirtz leads the league for chances created (21); criticism focuses on end product
• Spotlight of the fee: Analysis coloured by transfer value, not actual performances

Kev Hatchard:

“I think there's been an overreaction and I think a lot of that's to do with the size of the fee. And that's not his fault.” ([03:25])
“He's one of several and... it's still largely Salah's team.” ([05:05])

3. Tactical & Systemic Differences

• Leverkusen System: Built for fluidity, Wirtz highly involved (80 touches/90min), clear supply lines (e.g., Xhaka’s progressive passing)
• Liverpool: Still integrating new signings, not yet attuned to Wirtz’s style, key players (e.g., Salah) still central

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“You had a team that was attuned to him completely.... at Liverpool, I think only the game at Turf Moor against Burnley, would he be up at that level of involvement.” ([06:11])

• Spatial, role competition:
  • Other Liverpool attackers (Gakpo, Ekitike) operate in similar zones, creating congestion and adjustment
  • More intense pace/physicality and “less time to play” in the Premier League

Kev Hatchard:

“You're going to have two seconds per action. Oh, now you've got 0.7. See how you deal with that.” ([03:25])

4. Adjustment Pressures: Price, Spotlight, and Discourse

• Pressure from club legends/media: Jamie Carragher’s call to drop Wirtz for the team’s “rhythm” ([10:25])
• Broader squad adaptation needed: Wirtz’s style requires teammates to change, a complex dynamic

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“You're buying quite a complex player and that's meant as a compliment. Someone who can do a lot of things, influence the game a lot of ways... you're asking players who had established positions in Liverpool's midfield to adjust their game.” ([10:55])

5. The “Bundesliga Tax” and Market Dynamics

• High transfer fees: Perceived as a “tax” for Premier League clubs buying potential stars from Germany, justified by development models and market realities
• Development model: Clubs like Eintracht Frankfurt self-consciously act as talent accelerators targeted at the Premier League

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“This is the repercussion the Premier League faces for being financially dominant. It's not a Bundeslig tax. It's a tax on anybody who comes from outside England.” ([14:44])

Kev Hatchard:

“My fear long term, is that some of the Premier League clubs, ... will actually take the players before the Bundesliga clubs get their hands on them.” ([16:13])

6. Why Do Premier League Clubs Target Bundesliga Talent?

Bundesliga as a Development Platform

• Opportunities for youth: Bundesliga clubs trust and fast-track young players
• Competitive platform: Bundesliga offers both technical development and physical challenges, plus European experience

Kev Hatchard:

“German clubs will give young talent a chance because it's part of the model. ... Kai Havertz ... as a teenager became one of the most important players in the team.” ([20:26])

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“The Bundesliga is especially good at developing young attacking players because you can say to someone like Volta, Mardi, Shesko, Simons or Pender, you ... are going to give you starting roles at the top of the league in clubs which are relatively strong compared to other sides.” ([23:04])

Transition Challenges

• Role in system: Standout roles in Bundesliga teams may not directly transfer; in England, teams more competitive from top to bottom
• Adjustment to being less dominant: Used to facing weaker teams, more possession, and more clear attacking opportunities in Germany

7. Adaptation: Why Some Settle Faster Than Others

Expert Perspective (Jan Åge Fjørtoft)

• Recent examples: References Haaland, Valtemada, Havertz, Werner for differing adaptation speeds ([27:14])
• Honest appraisal: Premier League will always be a tough jump—doesn’t mean Bundesliga is “a farmer’s league”

Jan Åge Fjørtoft:

“...It's general thing that it's hard to adapt to a new league. Premier League is the best league and then it's hard there to do that.” ([27:52])
“I wouldn't be worried about Florowitz. ... But there are good enough examples of players that have taken that change straight to way.” ([27:19])

Human Factors

• Beyond “attributes”: Social acclimation, language, food, living conditions, confidence, and injury history all play a pivotal role

Seb Stafford-Bloor:

“You're not dealing with an avatar, you're dealing with a human being. And it's tricky. Like if you move country ... and in a way that's kind of the same for a football player.” ([29:14], [32:44])

8. Case Study - Valtemada & Bayern’s Frustration

• Missed opportunity: Bayern sulking after losing both Wirtz and Volta Mada, leading to unusual transfer strategy
• Attributes: Volta Mada praised for technical ability unusual for a tall striker

Kev Hatchard:

“The kid's got moves, man. I am absolutely not having any Crouch slander on this show. ...His English is great...He plays with a smile on his face.” ([36:25])

9. Bundesliga Success Stories in England

Montage of Notables: De Bruyne, Gundogan, Son, Haaland, etc. ([38:19-38:47])

• Comparison: Contrasts smooth/rapid adaptors with others who needed time, especially Ryan Gravenberch as a Liverpool standout after an adaptation period.

Kev Hatchard:

“Wirtz is going to be absolutely fine. I'm 100% convinced about that. ...Sometimes something happens that just unlocks a player.” ([39:15])

Kevin De Bruyne’s Journey

• Seb Stafford-Bloor on KDB:

“He was German footballer of the year. ... You see the player he was in the Premier League in those games and that's quite an accolade.” ([41:38])

• Guardiola’s role:

“Guardiola more than anyone actually recognizes what players get in the Bundesliga because he worked there for three years with Bayern and he's gone back and back and back...” ([43:21])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Liverpool’s expectations:

  • Ayo Akinmolere: “Eight games into his Liverpool career and Florian Wirtz hasn't scored or assisted yet. So, why the slow start, and how long would it take to adapt to the Premier League?” ([01:36])

• On the intensity difference:

  • Kev Hatchard: “It's like saying to a player, right, you're going to have two seconds per action. Oh, now you've got 0.7. See how you deal with that.” ([03:25])

• On moving to the Premier League:

  • Seb Stafford-Bloor: “...Even though the team wasn't really built around him [at Leverkusen], you had a team that was attuned to him completely... at Liverpool ... how woven into the fabric of the side he was at Leverkusen versus quite understandably how he's not yet at Liverpool.” ([06:11])

• On humanizing transfers:

  • Seb Stafford-Bloor: “You're not dealing with an avatar, you're dealing with a human being. ... Like if you move country and you're settling in, well on day one you've got to go to work, ... It's far more complex than I think the modern discourse allows it to seem.” ([29:14]-[32:44])

• On Bundesliga market realities:

  • Seb Stafford-Bloor: “It's not a Bundeslig tax. It's a tax on anybody who comes from outside England.” ([14:44])

• On Ryan Gravenberch:

  • Kev Hatchard: “When Gravenberg signed, I said at the time that it needed patience on all sides... But sometimes it's serendipity. Sometimes something happens that just unlocks a player.” ([39:15])

• On De Bruyne’s development:

  • Seb Stafford-Bloor: “You see the player he was in the Premier League in those games and that's quite an accolade in that context.” ([41:38])

Key Timestamps

• [01:36] Opening: Wirtz’s stats and headline struggles at Liverpool
• [02:25] Seb on context of Liverpool's adjustment issues
• [03:25] Kev on expectation management and league intensity
• [06:11] Seb on tactical/system differences and Wirtz’s role
• [10:55] Seb on squad adjustment and Carragher’s criticism
• [14:44] Seb on the so-called “Bundesliga tax”
• [20:26] Kev on why Premier League scouts the Bundesliga
• [23:04] Seb on Bundesliga as an attacking player incubator
• [27:14] Jan Åge Fjørtoft on adaptation and “farmers league” jibes
• [29:14] Seb on human/psychological adaptation
• [33:32] Kev on Valtemada transfer and Bayern’s response
• [38:19-38:47] Montage: Bundesliga exports in the Premier League
• [39:15] Kev on patience with Wirtz and comparison with Gravenberch
• [41:38] Seb on De Bruyne’s foundational Bundesliga season

Tone & Language

The conversation was rigorous and informed, balancing tactful skepticism with optimism, laced with the good-natured banter and expertise typical of The Athletic FC Podcast panel.

Summary Takeaway

Florian Wirtz’s lack of immediate goals or assists at Liverpool isn’t a cause for panic. Both tactical and human factors—integrating into a new team and system, heightened Premier League pace, the complexity of role adaptation, and general life adjustments—explain his slow start. The Bundesliga remains Europe’s prime talent incubator for the Premier League, producing some of its greatest success stories (De Bruyne, Haaland, Son, Gundogan) and challenging conventional wisdom about “league tax” or simplistic cause-and-effect on player performance. The episode champions patience and the importance of context, reminding fans and pundits alike, as Seb says, “You're not dealing with an avatar, you're dealing with a human being.” ([32:44])