Loading summary
Transcript102 lines
- [00:00]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro Arc, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. ARC introduces hydro metrics tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually see your progress. Go to hydro.com and use code row to get $100 off any hydro rower in including ARC. That's H Y--R-O-W.com code RO with Canex, health providers can offer their patients reliable professional grade options with confidence. A professional distributor offering high grade rigorously vetted products that meet clinical standards. Reliable options supported by a trusted name in wellness, the standard in cannabinoid care for health care providers. Not a healthcare professional. Please talk to your provider about Cannex Health. Apply for an account at CannexHealth store care. Cannex Health products are hemp derived and intended for adult use only, not evaluated by the fda. Not meant to treat or cure disease. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a.
- [01:04]
Kev Hatchard
Manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible.
- [01:11]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger.
- [01:13]
Kev Hatchard
Offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Quality call 1-800-granger click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:37]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akim Mulere. Eight games into his Liverpool career and Florian Wirtz hasn't scored or assisted yet. So why the slow start and how long would it take to adapt to the Premier League? In with it for this one we have our German football writer Seb Stafford Blur and someone I'm so grateful we've got Bundesliga commentator Kev Hatchard as well. All right gents, let's get into this. Seb Florian Wirtz was the British record fee for 116 million, obviously overtaken by Liverpool signing of Alexander Isak. After eight games in all competitions, he's yet to register a goal or assist. Are you surprised by this?
- [02:25]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
No, I think if you place it in the context of how Liverpool have played as a side throughout those games. I mean they've had their late winners and been largely successful. But I wouldn't say that they've lived up to post Season expectations or to the standards they set last season. I Wirtz is a wonderful player, really one of the best players I've ever seen live. But at the same time he's still a function and was always a function of how Bayer Leverkusen played in the Bundesliga. He's part of a system and I don't think he's necessarily played badly. I just think like everybody at Liverpool individually he's been a bit sort of sick. 7 out of 10. And mixed in with the kind of the expectation around adjusting to a new league, adjusting socially, to living in a new country, new teammates. Also remember how many new parts there are to that Liverpool side. Two new fullbacks, new forwards, new wide forward, depending on whether Ekteka and Isak play together in the future. No, I don't think it's that surprising.
- [03:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Kev is too much being made of this start because according to Opta, no player has created more chances than the 21 by Wirt this season. What are your thoughts on that?
- [03:25]
Kev Hatchard
I think there's been an overreaction and I think a lot of that's to do with the size of the fee. And that's not his fault. He was always going to move for big money, whether it was to Bayern or whether it was to Liverpool or whether it was to Man City or Real Madrid. And just the fact that I've listed those clubs show you that this is a player held in very, very high esteem. And I imagine Seb's the same. If we didn't see the player we know, if we saw a player that was completely on the fringes not getting involved, then you would worry. But I loads of Viets glimpses all the time and I obviously naturally have watched him really, really closely. I've watched all Liverpool's games. I've been kind of laser focused on Viet and all the little shimmies are still there, all the little lovely touches, all the weight of pass is still there, all the movement's still there. But the game is quicker and it's more intense and he hasn't got as much time to play. It's like saying to a player, right, you're going to have two seconds per action. Oh, now you've got 0.7. See how you deal with that. So it's always going to take a while for who adjust to that, the physicality. I think you also need to look at some of the teams he's come up against. Bournemouth who have an incredible pressing game. Newcastle away. That was a bear pit. Galatasaray away you know, these are tough places to go where they're at you all the time. So I actually think he's done okay given all of the circumstances around the move.
- [04:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. When you heard of the, and this is to you Kev, when you heard of this major transfer and obviously some might say the darling of German football, were you worried it could take some time from a football perspective to kind of take it to the Premier League?
- [05:06]
Kev Hatchard
It's always a little bit hit and miss because it depends on the position, it depends on what those players are asked to do, whether it's different to what they would normally do. So I see somebody like Ekitike. Ekitike is a bit more plug and play in the sense that they've said to him just do what you did at Frankfurt, which is be a facilitator. But also all that movement, all that link up play. So it's not significantly different. He's come from a Bayer Leverkusen team where he was absolutely the top man. Everything went through him. He was the creator, he was the conductor at Liverpool. He's one of several and let's be honest, it's still largely Salah's team. You know, you look at last season, certainly the first 2/3 of last season, everything's geared towards Salah. Why wouldn't it be? He's a world class player who had incredible numbers. But that's not necessarily conducive then to bringing in a new guy and saying, right, the team's now about you, so there's all of that as well. And I'm not saying that, but Salah's made it difficult for him. I imagine it's the total opposite. I imagine Salah's been very collegiate but just naturally Liverpool have gravitated towards him. So it's a very different look.
- [06:11]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Now I think the difference that I would describe IU is actually balance because when I think of the last two years he spent in Germany in obviously Jabi Alons's Bayer Leverkusen, one of those years was the undefeated double winning season. The second was not quite as impressive but still within the context of Bayer Leverkusen's history, excellent as a season that side had so much rhythm. Now if you think about the way in which it pointed towards Wirts in a lot of ways he had two forwards, mainly Patrick Schick, but also Victor Boniface who played as nines but could operate as tens, had a lot of 10 related skills, could combine with deeper players, two wing backs, full backs in Jeremy Fringpong and Alex Grimaldo who were very different but suited the team so well. Fringpong, just a brilliant all round wing back. But Grimaldo could do so many different things in so many different positions, not just from the touchline. And then behind him you had a midfield that was kind of. It supplied him so well. Granit Xhaka is still one of the best progressive passes in German football. And so the cumulative effect here was he was always being put in positions that he wanted to receive the ball in. So you essentially, even though the team wasn't really built around him, you had a team that was attuned to him completely. And I think also if you look at some of the data from those last two years, generally speaking you see Wirtz having around 80 touches per 90 minutes. And at the moment at Liverpool, I think only the game at Turfmore against Burnley, would he be up at that level of involvement. And yes, there have been a few occasions when he hasn't played as many minutes. But I think that describes how woven into the fabric of the side he was at Leverkusen versus quite understandably how he's not yet at Liverpool. And I know there are better measures of that and that's a very simple layman term way of looking at it, but I think that is descriptive and I think is also worth remembering. I don't know if Kev would agree, but like when I saw that Leverkusen side, I didn't necessarily see it as Florian Wirtz's Leverkusen. I saw it as Florian Wirtz being the best player in what was kind of a single entity team that just moved and was rhythmic and his ball circulation was just perfect at times. And Liverpool yet to find that quite understandably, quite understandably because they haven't been together for very long at all. But I think that's a big difference there.
- [08:29]
Kev Hatchard
It's a really good point that the Xhaka thing, especially because if you look at Xhaka's numbers, for example, what he was brilliant at was getting out of pressure situations. So he would either pass his way out of them, he'd move his way out of them. And what that does automatically is you've taken at least one player out the game then and probably two. And so suddenly Wirtz is on the move with a lot more space. He's usually got a striker ahead of him. There was a spell in the season where in the season just gone actually not the title winning season where him and Patrick Schick had an incredible L. I think it was something like he set up six goals in a row for Schick and you know, he had that weight of pass, he had that ability. So he had a target straight away. Now he's going to have targets at Liverpool. But I think there's also an element of players encroaching on his space to a certain extent as well. So Cody Gakpo wants to come in field and sometimes they're in each other's way. Ekitiko wants to come short. Sometimes they're still finding where do I want to be and where should you guys be? And they'll get there. It takes time. And the other thing as well is that Leverkusen, yes, they won the title. Yes, they won an unbeaten league in cup double. Never been done before. Even Bayern never did that. Even having done that, you're not talking about the same glare of the spotlight. You're not talking about the same pressure. Whereas at Liverpool, every draw is a disaster. Everything is poured over. He's got this massive price tag on his shoulders, which isn't his fault. And so then it is a test. It is a real test. But the one thing I've always felt about him is that he has this steel, he has this strength of character. He's a real competitor. You see it sometimes in the way that he'll snap back at people or he'll talk the way he talks to referees sometimes. He's a real fighter. And I love that about him. And I think he'll get through this. I think he will be an excellent player for Liverpool, not just this year, but in years to come.
- [10:25]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Kev, you make a really good point about the price tag. Because I don't think any player actually puts 100 plus million pounds on their back. I mean, these are agents, these are clubs doing business. But on that subject, Seb, you know, recently seen Liverpool legend Jamie Carragher asking for him to be dropped out of the team because he ruins the rhythm of Liverpool. Liverpool need to go back to who they are and then maybe think of integrating him. But if a player of that price tag is going to come to a club, you'd like to think the club's done its due diligence as to how this play is going to work for the club.
- [10:55]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, you would certainly think that someone as smart as Richard Hughes has done exactly that. And Liverpool don't have their recruiting reputation for nothing. I didn't see what Jamie Carragus said about foreign verts. I don't get a lot of the punishy coverage over here, but I would Say this is a function of buying a player of those qualities, but also you're not buying necessarily a specialist. This is not like buying a center forward. Right, because it's a simpler situation. Centre forward, given the supply, score goals. I think we're seeing that with Kev mentioned Hugo Ekatike. That's a very apt comparison. I'd also say Victor Jokarez. No doubt there are challenges for him at Arsenal, but the mission is a bit simpler. Right? You're there to cure a very clear flaw that existed in this team before. Go and score goals, lead the line, etc, etc. We all know what I'm talking about. I think with someone like that, you're buying quite a complex player and that's meant as a compliment. Someone who can do a lot of things, influence the game a lot of ways. Forget the adjustment that Florin Vitz himself goes through. Where are you living? How are you just into English food, English life, you know, these kind of things. What are your family doing? Right. You're also, you know, you're asking players who had established positions in Liverpool's midfield to adjust their game. And that includes Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, even Salah on the right side. Everybody's making an adjustment and so when you add all of those adjustments up, the end result is really quite a complex piece of work. So nothing against Jamie Carragher, but disagree.
- [12:18]
Ayo Akimolere
That's very fair. That's very fair. Very quickly, before we move on, gents, I want to talk about something. I mean, I guess it's sort of alluding to the price tag in many respects. You know, you look at Wirtz scored 16 and assisted 15 for Bayern Leverkusen last season. The year before, he was sort of the jewel of the crown of a side that, you know, completed an unbeaten domestic season, made history. Is this the case in terms of price? We look at the money Ekatike went for, the money Volta Mada went for, and we'll go into his transfer a little later on. But, you know, is it a lot of money? Is the Bundesliga looking at the Premier League, Kev thinking it's time to cash in?
- [12:52]
Kev Hatchard
Well, look, a player's only ever worth what somebody else is prepared to pay. That's the truth of it. That's. That is the market. And if you take Wirtz's situation, the bottom line is Leverkusen didn't want to let him go. They'd have much preferred to have him in their team for this season. And without him, you know, it's been really difficult so then it became clear that there was a huge market for him. I'd have been really interested to see if we'd gone deeper into the summer. And it wasn't clear that he was going to Liverpool where the shabby Alonso and Real Madrid would have got involved, because I have a suspicion they. They would have. Manchester City were very, very interested and obviously Bayern really did think they were going to get him and had. They felt had put in the groundwork. I mean, Seb will know that even better than me that they had done that groundwork. They felt they'd spoken to his father, they'd spoken camp a lot. And we all. The steer that we were being given in general was if he makes a move, the idea is he moves to Bayern, that he does a few years there and then the Premier League or something like that comes along later. So Liverpool did an incredible job of selling the dream to him. But these players are developed and they are, you know, a lot of them do hit the ground running. I'm sure we'll talk about this later in general, but Bundesliga tax gets thrown out there loads of. And people will always go, jadon Sancho, he didn't do very well. Okay, But Kai Havertz won the Champions League. Kevin De Bruyne was one of the best players the Premier League's ever seen. Nobody talks about Heung Min Son and Heung Min Son was absolutely sensational for Leverkusen before he went to Tottenham. And he's been one of the most consistent players in the Premier League in the past decade. So these players cost money for a reason, because they are performing well, they're given their chance early on, and the clubs that have them don't particularly want to let them go at that stage.
- [14:45]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
What's really interesting to me that the Bundesliga tax thing. Look, we both work in German football, so we're sensitive to that term. But to me, this is the repercussion the Premier League faces for being financially dominant. It's not a Bundeslig tax. It's a tax on anybody who comes from outside England. Because if you have these financial advantages, clubs from outside that country are going to see you as a cash cow. They're going to see you not. Not as dumb money, but as our aim is to sell to you and to sell to you at an inflated price. And this isn't necessarily. But I. If you speak to, for instance, I'm try Frankfurt, great example of a club who they understand their role in the food chain and they will say to you, if you speak to people at the club, our role is as an accelerator of talent. We are the club where a player can come develop his career, develop his abilities, benefit from the work of our coaching staff, which is extremely capable, as everybody, I'm sure, knows, and then we will be the club to deliver you to the highest level. And that's kind of how you have to think, because, I mean, if you're a Bundesliga club that is not Bayern, or if you're a French club that is not Paris Saint Germain or an Italian club, probably all Italian clubs currently, this is the way of the world. And because of how much talent the Premier League, and not just playing talent, coaching talent, how much talent it takes from everywhere else, getting there is always going to involve a massive change. But it's not just about German football, Italian football, Spanish football, it's about kind of the Premier League being really sorry to say it, but it's a stealth super league.
- [16:14]
Kev Hatchard
Well, where German clubs have been really smart as well, actually, is they've done it both ways, because what they've done is they've latched onto the idea that, well, Premier League clubs have got loads of talent, they can't play at all. So what we'll do is we'll actually profit at both ends. We'll look at Jadon, Sancho, Jamie Gittins, they're not getting in at Man City. Great. We'll take them, we'll develop them, then we'll sell them back to the Premier League. It's an incredible wheeze because you just go, great. We can see these kids who are not getting in. And because the Bundesliga, I think more than any other Europe, top European league, I think the Bundesliga's got a rep for saying to people, you can come here. Exactly what Seb was just talking about with Eintracht Frankfurt. You can come here, you can give us two, three years. It helps us, it helps you, and then you can get your big money, your big wages, you can get your big move back to the Premier League. Everyone wins. My fear long term, is that some of the Premier League clubs, and I think this is already happening in some cases, some of the Premier League clubs will get really smart and will actually take the players before the Bundesliga clubs get their hands on them. That's what might change in the future, that these kids who are coming into the Bundesliga actually might go to Brighton or they might go to Bournemouth, or they might go to Brentford first before the Bundesliga clubs get their hands on them. But in the last few years, I think generally German clubs have been super smart about this.
- [17:40]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Right?
- [17:41]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's move on because that's the Bundesliga tax dealt with. Next we'll get into why. I know you guys explain it very well.
- [17:48]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I'm not going to lie not having that.
- [17:49]
Kev Hatchard
Nothing makes us angrier than the Bundesliga attacks. Get out. Get out. So good you guys went in. You went in.
- [17:58]
Ayo Akimolere
The German football pride shone through. Next we'll get into why the Premier League buys so many players from Germany.
- [18:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accumulere.
- [18:11]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro Arc, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. ARC introduces hydrometrics, tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually see your progress. Go to hydro.com and use code row to get $100 off any hydro rower include including ark, that's H Y--R-O-W.com Code.
- [18:42]
Odoo Advertiser
Row business software is expensive and when you buy software from a lot of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites and sales to inventory and accounting. All linked in talking to each other. Check out odoo d o o.com that's o d o o.com emoji moment from.
- [19:22]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
Tara who writes for years all my.
- [19:26]
Ayo Akimolere
Doctor said was eat less and move.
- [19:28]
Kev Hatchard
More which never worked.
- [19:29]
Ayo Akimolere
But you know what does?
- [19:30]
Kev Hatchard
The simple eating tips from my nutritionist at movies and after losing over 30 pounds, I can say you're not just.
- [19:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Another GLP One source, you're a life source.
- [19:40]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Thanks Tara.
- [19:41]
Kev Hatchard
I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health.
- [19:44]
Ayo Akimolere
To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.
- [19:48]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Tara is a mochi member compensated for her story.
- [19:57]
Ayo Akimolere
Well outside the Premier League, the Bundesliga was the most shop league by Premier League clubs. This summer we saw a number of high profile players move to some great teams. Look at Wirt, Ekatike Frimpong who went to Liverpool, Manchester United, by Benjamin Sheko, Nick Valtoma moving to Newcastle and also we've got Xavi Simmons who moved to spurs as well. Gents, why does The Bundesliga appeal so much to Premier League clubs. Is it the technical ability of the league? Is it the fact that they play in Europe, for instance?
- [20:27]
Kev Hatchard
Yeah, I think there's a few things here. I think firstly, German clubs will give young talent a chance because it's part of the model. But also there is that implicit trust. You look at Kai Havertz and Leverkusen. As a teenager, he became one of the most important players in the team and they were happy to give him that trust. They were happy to let him become a leader on the job, really. Same with Florian Wirtz. He at the time, actually, when he scored his first Bundesliga goal against Bayern, of all teams, he was the youngest goal scorer in the Bundesliga of all time. Now, that's since been supplanted by Mokoko, but that just gave you an idea of the fact that clubs were able to do that and willing to do that. Jude Bellingham was captain in Dortmund as a teenager. This is what they will do. They will say to you, right, we trust you to develop on the job. We know you'll make mistakes here and there, but we trust you to develop. And there are a number of clubs that do this really, really well. Leipzig for, I mean, that's a whole other show about what we think about Leipzig and, you know, the way they've been put together and whatever. But you cannot den their use development. You cannot deny how they have developed players sold them on. And that's part of the deal that they say to guys, look, you're going to be here for a certain amount of time. We promise we won't block you, we promise we won't price you out of a move. We'll get there, but you just have to trust us that it will happen at the right time. So you're getting guys who've got that experience. The coaching is excellent. We've talked about Frankfurt already. Dino Topmuller, I think, is going right to the very top.
- [22:02]
Ayo Akimolere
Top.
- [22:03]
Kev Hatchard
I think he's super smart. Tactically, he's great. He knows how to develop young players. He's doing a brilliant job, actually, with a guy that some listeners may know, some may not. John Oon listen out for him. Wonderful. Number 10, really exciting. But I was speaking to somebody at Frankfurt pretty recently about him, and the change has been that Dino Tutmuller is quite hard on him sometimes. He'll say, look, you might have set up two goals in the first half. If I see you start to tire or be make sloppy passes in the second, you're off. And I Think that's really actually got a bit more out of him. The other thing I think is that the league is not that much different to the Premier League in the sense that it's transitional, there is a lot of counter attack, but there is physicality and there is pace to the game. Now, it's not the pace of the Premier League as some players find out when they make the move, but it's not as slow as some leagues. And so I think there is a certain amount of readiness built in when these players make that move.
- [23:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I agree with all of that. The only thing I'd add, I think is, and this is a bit of a pet theory of mine, so I don't know if it stands up to any scrutiny, but I think the Bundesliga is especially good at developing young attacking players because you can say to someone like Volta, Mardi, Shesko, Simons or Pender, you can say, right, we're going to give you starting roles at the top of the league in clubs which are relatively strong compared to other sides. So when he arrived in Germany, and I still think now, I personally think Shesco left too early. But when he arrived, instead of playing for Bochum, which would be his probably the equivalent in the Premier League relative to his ability had he moved at that point in his career, you can play for a team that is largely ball dominant, that is full of very, very talented players, that because of the various disparities in the Bundesliga, is able more weeks than not to play against a defense which is relatively weak. And so you have the advantage of playing with all of that behind you, kind of play with the wind at your back. I think the same thing about someone like Joe Bellingham. I know he hasn't had the very best start at Borussia Dortmund, but Borussia Dortmund are going to have roughly 60% of the ball in most of the Bundesliga games they play this season. And that means that instead of easing into the Premier League, perhaps playing in a low block quite often, but I haven't seen Sunderland play at all this season. So I'm not suggesting that's the way they play, but I'm just mean that at their end of the table because that's the pattern of a lot of Premier League games. So instead of that, you have him playing at Brussia Dortmund, where, yes, you're going to be able to develop the out of possession side of the game. You're also going to allow the attacking side of his game to flourish because Dortmund need that. You're going to breed a Much more complete footballer as a result. And it's almost like an artificial advantage. But I think that also over time, it spotlights what a player is able to do. And that's a key part of this, I think.
- [24:58]
Kev Hatchard
But they're all playing in Europe as well. You know, they're all playing Champions League or Europa League. So Sepp's absolutely right. These are players that are playing for teams who are going to dominate possession, have loads of attacks, generally score lots of goals. And so Vi, I think, got five man of the Match awards in the Champions League last season for Leverkusen. So he's got that grounding. I think he can go the other way as well. The point Seb makes is really salient about that because sometimes when they get to the Premier League, it's like, ah, well, actually normally I play for a team that's battering somebody or I could get through this. And then suddenly for certain teams, that's not happening, happening. There's then that adjustment. If you're. Shesko, for example, their system is very geared towards strikers. If you look at Leipzig, their strikers have. Some have been hit and miss, but generally you've done well. Append has obviously moved. You've got Sheshko, you've had strikers before that, but he gets to Man United and he barely sees the ball because they're a mess at the moment. So then that's a really hard adjustment because again, everybody's going, this fee is massive. You should be banging in two, three goals a game. He's barely seen the ball in the first few weeks, so how's he supposed to adjust to that? That can be quite a leap, I think, for some of these players.
- [26:13]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I also find it interesting when I watch players from the Bundesliga move through the Premier League in their first season. Sometimes you see them stepping out at grounds at the bottom half of the Premier League and you can almost read them thinking, God, they're quite good. And I think there's a really important difference and contrast to highlight here, which is if you look at the way, for instance, Sunderland were able to record recruit on arriving into the Premier League. And I think, Bernie, on promotion, I think they spent something like 60 million euros. Now, compare that to the spending of a newly promoted team in the Bundesliga. So take Hamburg or Hasfauer, like a giant of German football. Financially, they're not muscular, but they're pretty well off. They play in front of 57,000. I think their biggest transfer this summer was around €3 million. It's the difference. And so there are Big mismatches in Germany that you just don't really find in English footballing anymore. And so it makes them much more competitive.
- [27:04]
Ayo Akimolere
I'm really interested as to why some players adapt quicker than others. Well, here's former Premier League and Bundesliga forward turned broadcaster Jan Aga Fjordoft.
- [27:14]
Jan Åge Fjørtoft
Well, I've had the pleasure of playing.
- [27:16]
Ayo Akimolere
Both leagues and Fjordoft is through.
- [27:20]
Kev Hatchard
Fjordoft gets his second.
- [27:22]
Jan Åge Fjørtoft
On one thing we can discuss Florian Wiertz struggling at Liverpool. On the other hand we can say what about Valte Mare who scored one goal goal with a header last season in the Bundesliga and then he came to England, the big header's birth country. And now he scored two already looking for Baltimore.
- [27:42]
Kev Hatchard
And the big German gets another goal.
- [27:44]
Ayo Akimolere
And another with his head.
- [27:46]
Jan Åge Fjørtoft
We could also use Erling Haaland. Didn't take him long to adapt to the English Premier League.
- [27:53]
Ayo Akimolere
He's onside Haaland only one result 2 0.
- [27:57]
Jan Åge Fjørtoft
It's an interesting discussion. You would like to say that the Bundesliga is the Farmers League and all those kind of things. But I think it's general thing that it's hard to adapt to a new league. Premier League is the best league and then it's hard there to do that.
- [28:13]
Kev Hatchard
Here's Florian Wirtz.
- [28:14]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Wonderful first touch, really good recovery.
- [28:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Who else?
- [28:18]
Kev Hatchard
James Tarkovsky.
- [28:20]
Jan Åge Fjørtoft
I wouldn't be worried about Florowitz. We remember back in the days when Havertz and Wer came to Chelsea. I mean, yes, they ended up winning the Champions League and Harvard scoring the winner in the final. He's been doing okay for Arsenal later as well. So I think this is a part of sometime the analysis are a bit too easy to say because we know that the Premier League is better than the Bundesliga. It will take time even for the best players. But there are good enough examples of players that have taken that change straight to way.
- [28:53]
Ayo Akimolere
Always honest, always speaks with his chest. Appreciate that Jan Seb. Jan gave us some great examples there. I can't believe you forgot. Haaland of all people came from the Bundesliga as well. Now there are players who adapt quickly for sure and others who need a little bit more time. You did a great explainer on patience needed over on Instagram. Tell us a bit more about that one.
- [29:14]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I'm a big influencer obviously.
- [29:18]
Ayo Akimolere
I thought so. That's why we got you on mate.
- [29:20]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I mean, let's see, that's what my career is built on. This came off something that Florin Virtz actually said. He gave an interview with Sky Deutschland a couple of weeks after A couple weeks into the Premier League season and he talked about how the speed of everything around him was greater and how he was having to adjust to, you know, for a player who is always on the move, anybody who's ever watched him knows how hard he works between the lines to find space and to find receiving positions. He was just saying that. That's the big difference. It's not necessarily like being kicked or like elbowed or when people talk about physicality, it's about, about kind of reconditioning. And I was applying it to Jamie Gittins situation at Chelsea because last season, Jamie Gittins for the first four months of the year was brilliant. Borussia Dortmund played very, very well in a very poor team actually and got to the midpoint of the season and kind of ran out of gas because he'd never really been a starter before. And then all of a sudden, out of necessity, he was kind of being asked to go Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday, and he was just gathering gassed by the Fintech Palsa and then picked up a little bit of an injury. After the new year, as coaching change was made. Alwyn, Yuri, Shaheen, in came Niko Kovac. And Kovac uses like attacking midfielders, wingers in a very different way to the way Shaheen did. And Gittins was a bit of a victim of that. The result was you had a situation where a player arrived in England low on confidence because he hadn't really been in the team and with a kind of a level of conditioning which wasn't really adequate for Premier League live. And so what has to happen is you're almost asking a player to do extracurricular reconditioning on the side. So you're playing games, you're rebuilding your confidence, you're trying to find your place in a team like Chelsea where you're only ever three games away from being discarded. You're not good enough. Right, we'll get the next guy in here. And there's so much competition, particularly in attacking places, and there's so many talented guys that are doing who are able to offer something that you've got these challenges going on in the background. It's not really, really fair to ignore that context or ignore the sort of the route they took into the game. Now, I think if you're Nick Voldemorte, Florian Wirtz, Hugo Katike, you arrive in England off the back of positivity. Your legacy in Germany is great. Like Voltimani, different case. I'm sure we'll talk about that. Gittins was different. And sometimes you have to understand that it's not like going on EAFC and going, that guy's got 83 ability. Grab him, pay them money, drop him into my team. There's all the chemistry, everything's fine. You're not dealing with an avatar, you're dealing with a human being. And it's tricky. Like if you move country and you're settling in well on day one, you've got to go to work, but you still have to do your stuff. You got to set up your cancer tax, you've got to learn your language, you've got to understand, like where you buy your brotian and your coffee and that if you're in Germany, you can't actually buy paracetamol from a supermarket. You have to go to an Appeteka. Like all these little weird things, right, that a normal person would experience. Like you're balancing them with your job. And in a way that's kind of the same for a football player and that's based on also. So how are you feeling about yourself? Are things going well in your football life? Well, for him last season? No, not really. In the second half of the year. So you're coping with that too. And these are not fashionable comments to make in a modern age where it's all about making a big comment. You know, he's been here for three games. Rubbish. Don't care about that. Loads of attention for saying how, you know.
- [32:44]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, but you forget they're actual human beings, right?
- [32:46]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
They're human beings. And if you talk to the people around some of these players, like, I'm not talking about anybody specifically, but you understand what a big operation it is to deal with a player moving country, new team, their life, how are they feeling? How are they sleeping? How are they eating? Oh, well, you know, this is a 19 year old guy. What was I eating at 19 Frozen Pizza four nights a week. It's far more complex than I think the modern discourse allows it to seem.
- [33:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, very quickly, Kev, I just want to touch on Valtemada, who I think has had a really good start to the Premier League. But also, I watched him under 21 Euros. I mean, come on, that kid was on fire. But he's hit a little bit of criticism in German media this week for that transfer to Newcastle. I thought that was shrewd business from Newcastle, but why has it created such headlines?
- [33:33]
Kev Hatchard
Because Bayern, I think, are just being Bayern. I think they're a bit wounded by the summer that's just gone. They don't like missing out on players. That's the truth of it. And they had a very, very tough summer window because they went for Viets and that did not happen. That was a huge blow to their pride because the top German player, player said, no, thank you, I'm gonna go somewhere else. So there was that. And Volta Mada was a player that he could have salved that wound a little bit, because really good German talent coming up through the ranks would have solved a lot of their issues with Musiala injured, because he can cover nine, he can cover 10, he can play a little bit wide if you want him to. So he would have been perfect. And what did they end up doing? Scrambling around, trying to get a deal done for Nicholas Jackson. That might work, it might not, but it's not very buying is the truth of it. Because normally what buy and want, buy and get, and if they don't get it, then they've come up with something you haven't even thought of and you haven't heard about it. Seb will know much more about this than me because he's in that space in terms of talking to people inside the club and what have you. But I cannot remember a summer where Bayern were linked with that many players. And I think it's been a change of approach. Normally it would be, here's our target. Target got him. Now it's right. We know we need to fill a profile on the left hand side. We'll kind of make contact with loads of different players and see what happens. So you had Bradley, Barkala, Nico Williams. That didn't work. So you've then got this sudden list of players where all it may have been is that you just expressed an interest and sounded the player out and said, would you be up for it?
- [35:22]
Ayo Akimolere
And.
- [35:22]
Kev Hatchard
But what actually happened was it created the impression that they didn't really know what they were doing and they were bouncing around from player to player and getting rejected every two seconds, that probably wasn't the case, but the fact that it was so public and they ended up with Luis Diaz, who I think is brilliant signing, but they went all the way around the houses to get there. Martinelli, Trossard, link with Trossa, one stage, who I like, but he's not a Bayern player. So it was just a very odd summer. And I think that's where the Volta Mada stuff's come from. I actually think he's a brilliant signing. I think he's such a fun player to watch because frankly, in the nicest possible way, he's Weird. A guy that tall should not be that deft. He shouldn't be. I really loathe to use it, but he is the archetype. Great touch for a big man. He's Peter Crouch.
- [36:17]
Ayo Akimolere
He is.
- [36:17]
Kev Hatchard
With silkiest skills.
- [36:19]
Ayo Akimolere
Come on. Don't.
- [36:20]
Kev Hatchard
Oh, no, no. I will not have any Crouchy slander. Absolutely.
- [36:23]
Ayo Akimolere
I've seen the ball at Valtoma's feet.
- [36:25]
Kev Hatchard
The kid's got moves, man. I am absolutely not having any Crouch slander on this show. What I love about him as well, his English is great. That's not why I love him, but it allows him to communicate. Already at Newcastle, he has great personality. He plays with a smile on his face. He really just enjoys it. So yeah, he's really, really excited.
- [36:49]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolere.
- [36:55]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro, you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro ARC, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. ARC introduces HydroMetrics, tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually see your Progress. Go to hydro.com and use code row to get $100 off any hydro rower, including ark. That's H Y-R-O-W.com code row.
- [37:27]
Ayo Akimolere
There are so many ways to save on cozy fall meals at Whole Foods Market. Save daily with low prices on no antibiotics ever. Meats like chicken breast, ground beef, Atlantic salmon and more from 365 brand. They have yellow low price signs on comforting favorites like Whole Foods Market rotisserie chicken and tempting mini croissants made without bleached or bromated flourish. Shop low prices and quality at Whole Foods Market, in store or online.
- [37:55]
Odoo Advertiser
Imagine the impact when everyone gets the right tool for the job. That's Odoo. Every app is designed to be easy to use, so employees spend less time learning the software and more time doing their jobs. Experience true speed, reduce data entry with smart AI and a fast UI. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's odoo.
- [38:15]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Com.
- [38:20]
Kev Hatchard
Balak. He's done it.
- [38:25]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
It's Pete Baman.
- [38:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Bamiang scores Gundan.
- [38:31]
Kev Hatchard
Here's De Bruyne on his left foot. De Bruyne. Oh, what a goal. What a response. Beautiful touch from Berbatov. Graben back. It's Herman on again. Where do you want your statue? Vincent Co.
- [38:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Some really big names in that little montage there. Players that have come From Germany to the Premier League. Very quickly, Kev, is it worth looking at the case of someone like Ryan Gravenbach versus what we're seeing for Florian Wirtz? Because his first season, some might say, was still adjusting. And then look at him now. I mean, how important is he to Liverpool right now? And you look at the talents that Virginia, I mean, come on. It's almost inevitable the Boyce is finding his feet here in the Premier League.
- [39:16]
Kev Hatchard
He's going to be fine. Wirtz is going to be absolutely fine. I'm 100% convinced about that. When Gravenberg signed, I said at the time that it needed patience on all sides. It needed patience from the coaching staff, it needed patience from. This is obviously when Klopp was there. Patience from him, patience from Kravenberg because he wasn't suddenly gonna be a regular starter immediately, and patience from the fans as well. But I didn't see the leap he's made. I saw him being a first team player on a regular basis. But sometimes it's serendipity. Sometimes something happens that just unlocks a player. And what's happened is they wanted to be Mendy. That was super close to happening and it didn't happen. And suddenly Arne Slot had to think on his feet and think, well, actually, what we going to do about this number six position? And Ravenberg went in there and was phenomenal. And he interprets it in a different way to others because he could get the ball and he could move through, through presses, he can move through challenges and he's always thinking forward. So that worked out really well. You look at somebody like Haaland, I mean, he would have scored hat tricks on the moon. If he had a moon Premier League, he would have scored on his debut there. I mean, he's just an outlier in every single way you can imagine. And he'll go on to be one of the greatest strikers the world's ever seen. Because not only does he have those physical gifts, the height, the strength, the speed, all that stuff, he has a real willingness to improve, to work on himself, to look after himself. I remember when he was with Dortmund, he would look back at seasons where he'd scored 40 goals, say at, you know, Salzburg or whatever, and he would go, I should have had 60 that season. He'd be really annoyed. He'd go through all the games and he'd say, well, all right, I got a hat trick there, but I should have had five in that game. And he's really hard on himself. It's not Easy to find players like that. So there've been some huge successes, some others that haven't worked so well. Got set these guys up to succeed.
- [41:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Seb, before we finish this, we have to talk about the transition of one of the Premier League greats, Kevin De Bruyne. That spell of Wolfsburg and we talk about the development you can have in the Bundesliga. How important was that moment for him to what he ended up becoming in terms of realizing his potential as probably one of the greatest midfielders in football he history.
- [41:38]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah. Due to Hackings Wolsberg. Yeah, it was a really interesting period. Obviously when he first joined Chelsea, De Bruyne went out to Werder Bremen on loan, came back, didn't go so well between him and Justin Mourinho. Of course. I think in retrospect what it gave him IO's ego. Because that season that was not a Volsberg side loaded with talent. Baz Dost was playing a center forward. Lis Gustavo was in that side. Rodriguez, the Swiss fullback was providing assists from all over the place. They were a good team and they finished second. They won the German cup, they beat Bressit Dortmund 2015. But it left De Bruyne with a season where it scored 10 goals, 20 assists. He was German footballer of the year. He's in the team of the year. He scored in that pocket final really crisp half volley from the edge of the box. And he was playing as a 10, I think by memory when he had his first sort of couple of appearances for Chelsea under Mourinho, he was sort of on the right side a little bit. He was so good. If you go back actually and find clips of his performances now it stands up. I mean, you see the player he was in the Premier League in those games and that's quite an accolade in that context. He shows you you can play and you can play to a very high standard at the top of the league. Yeah, they weren't champions, but when he comes back, he comes back ready to play at that level. And he comes back with that period at Chelsea where Mourinho's kind of criticized him and he questioned his abilities. You get rid of that and you come back with a little bit of a strut in your step. And I think that was the value of it. It's a long time ago and I wasn't living in Germany when that happened, but a remarkable season that a lot of people forget about, mainly because it happened in Wolfsburg. You know, it's not. There's not a big Media spotlight on Wolfsburg in Germany. But honestly, go and watch the highlights. He was absolutely outstanding in that season.
- [43:20]
Kev Hatchard
I was gutted when he left.
- [43:21]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Me too.
- [43:22]
Kev Hatchard
I was like, please don't break him when you take him. Please, please. He was unbelievable. I mean, Seb's absolutely right. I mean, the season he had, you could see all of the traits that he would then translate. And what Guardiola always did with him that was really smart was he didn't play him as a winger, but he knew he had winger's gifts in the fact that he could play those crosses from the right, he could do all that stuff, but you'd start him in the middle. But often Guardiola would have him making those little drifts out to the right as the extra man, and it just played into all of the qualities that he had. And I think Guardiola more than anyone actually recognizes what players get in the Bundesliga because he worked there for three years with Bayern and he's gone back and back and back and back to German football to bring guys in. Gundogan's come in, Gvardiol's come in, Akanji's come in. Obviously Haaland's come in. And Guardiola really rated the education that they got in the Bundesliga and almost all of them for Guardiola have worked.
- [44:25]
Ayo Akimolere
All right, gents, let's leave it there. I could talk about this all day. Seb, Kev, Jan, for joining us earlier as well. And also, thank you guys for listening. Matt Davis, Adam brings you the Premier League preview tomorrow. Looking ahead to Liverpool's visit to Chelsea.
- [44:41]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and A.D. moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [45:17]
Hydro Rower Advertiser
Skip the gym, not the workout. With Hydro, you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro Arc, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. ARK introduces HydroMetrics, tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually see your Progress. Go to hydrow.com and use code row to get $100 off any hydro rower, including ARC. That's H Y D R-O-W.com code row.
- [45:49]
Odoo Advertiser
Business software is expensive, and when you buy software from a lot of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate.
- [45:58]
Kev Hatchard
Integrate.
- [45:58]
Odoo Advertiser
Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single, affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites and sales to inventory and accounting. All linked in. Talking to each other. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com.
- [46:28]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Group.
- [46:28]
Kev Hatchard
Health insurance can put businesses in a.
- [46:30]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Tough position with rising costs and plans that don't fit everyone's needs.
- [46:35]
Kev Hatchard
Now a new form of employer coverage.
- [46:37]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Called an Ichra or Ichra can help.
- [46:40]
Kev Hatchard
Ichras make costs predictable with stable pre tax contributions. And they make health plans personal because each employee can pick any plan and carrier that meets their needs. Get coverage you control. Learn more@ambetterhealth.com Ichra Do.