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- [00:01]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:02]
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- [01:32]
Allstate Advertiser
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimolere. After Bayer Leverkusen's miraculous title win last season, this season it seems to be business as usual.
- [01:49]
Harry Kane
It's Harry Kane. Flawless Bayern in total control.
- [01:55]
Ayo Akimolere
So can anyone stop Bayern Munich re establishing themselves as the dominant force in the Bundesliga? And is Vincent Kompany creating a side that is serious about the Champions League? With us today we have our German football correspondent Seb Stafford Blu plus our special guest today, Jan Aga Fjordoft, former Premier League and Bundesliga footballer and also co host of the Foosball Channel podcast with his son Marcus Fjordoft as well. Bayern are top of the Bundesliga. Harry Kane is banging in those goals. They're playing beautiful attacking football. Some new additions as well over the summer. Is this Bayern back to their best?
- [02:36]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
No, they're not. I will go straight on to thanks for the great introduction. Great to have me on. No they're not. And we can use the last game now. They were 4 nil up against Holstein Kiel 414243. That is not Champions League glory written somewhere, but what's it Interesting. I was skeptical, I must admit, when Winston Co. So to say, were the sixth candidate they were chasing to get to their job. Because I saw him at Burnley. I think that his plan, a plan, a plan, a kind of thing wouldn't work out by Bayern. But to be fair to him, the Bundesliga form has been good. He has been good. Not great, but good. He has stabilized the club. But if you have a look at the points and you compare them with Tuchel and all that kind of thing, I think that the big, big change is now is calmer. And Uli Heeness sometimes come down from his big castle up in the air and say, I like company. But in the Champions League they lost against Aston Villa, they lost big against Barcelona and so on. So Celtic fans out there. There is a chance. There is a chance.
- [03:47]
Ayo Akimolere
Listen to the man. He's already come in fighting. Seb. This was the big conversation, wasn't it? Camp Vincent Kompany step up after obviously what he did at Burnley. Obviously Burnley ended up being relegated. But this came as a surprise to many people that he was appointed as manager and coach of Bayern Munich. How do you think he's done in his debut season?
- [04:08]
Seb Stafford-Blu
I've been quite impressed. I have the same reservations as Jan. I think I would have the same take Bayern and not back. They're imperious best. They're not powerful in the way that they used to be. But I think you also have to factor in the decline which preceded Vincent Kompany in each of the three years before he arrived. Bayern's points total dropped and dropped and dropped. And the last season against Leverkusen was really the only year when they were punished for that. And I think if you look in the micro and the smaller details, you can see a lot of little improvements. I think Bayern's pressing is a lot better. I think their originality and creativity and possession is more interesting than it has been in a few years. I think also there have been some improvements in individual players. I think if you go back to the summer IU and you read back on some of the conversations that were happening around the defense, particularly about the partnership between Min Jae Kim and Dae Ibn Kano, people were very, very negative about that, me included. I didn't think it could work. And yet I think whilst there is still some questions about whether that's a functioning top tier defensive combination, I think individually a lot of the players there have improved. I think Meccano revived his career. I don't think that's too strong a word. Min Jae has had Some tricky moments, but has had a much better year than he did last season. I think there have been some individual improvements further forward too. Jamal Messialis form has been absolutely outstanding. I think Kompany has also rejuvenated Kingsley Coman, who's had his best year in probably about two or three seasons. Serge Gnabry, not quite as impressive, but has certainly rebounded from a difficult couple of seasons with injury too. So I think yes, you can examine Kompani's reign against what Bayern have been in the past under Guardiola, under Tuchel. I think this is a better side. I still think there are questions to answer. I think that they are vulnerable, particularly in the Champions League. And Jan referenced the loss to Barcelona. I also was really disappointed with their performance in Rotterdam against Feyenoord. So they're absolutely dreadful. But there are so many positives compared to this season, compared to last season. Also worth noting, there is much less noise. I think with Tuchel the problem and with Nageman before that there was so much conjecture, there was so much sniping, there was so much poison in the air really around Bayern. That's been the big victory. It's a lot quieter and Vincent Co. Isn't entirely responsible for that, but he's part of it and it seems healthier. The environment seems healthier than it used to.
- [06:34]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
But I just have to say, yeah, good analysis. Not surprisingly, you know your stuff. But I would just say that the measure of no noise, that is not a. What should I say, an equal of success at Bayern because Bayern there is now out FC Hollywood documentary for the Matthias Finchman crazy. So I look forward to see that, by the way. But you're right, you're right and I think that in a modern football in 2025, what company Ebel, Freund, Hernest Dresden, what they have achieved, to take it down a bit and go down to the core business, to make a good football team, that has been a success. But to be devil's advocate, they're out of the German Cup. That was the first chance they have beaten by Leverkusen. Exactly. And I don't seem to be favourite, let's put it this way, to win the Champions League, Leverkusen is still on their feet. But I think, well, the key game will be Leverkusen, Bayern coming up soon. Then Bayern got to go out in that game against Celtic before that because they didn't do well in the Champions League. But I think they will win the German Bundesliga. What is interesting with Bayern at the moment is that which market do they invest their players in now they're in an extension of contracts. Davies was the first one. You expect Muziala to be the next one. Akimich is coming up. What do they do with Leroy Sane? What do they do with Gnabry? What do they do with Kuhlmann who I agree, I've had a good season. Will they sell Goretzka? Because the thing is, although they don't pay the big, big fees as we do in English football, the wages are enormous in Bayern that are enormous. Like there are six, seven players that are apparently earning more than 20 million euro a year and somehow they gotta balance this because this is a member owned club, meaning this 50 plus one rule. They have investors in big companies have also got shares but they don't have oil, they don't have gas, they don't have a state behind them. So it's interesting to see where the modern Bayern will go in the next years because back in the days they have had something called Festgeltkonto, meaning they had an account where they had money if they were going in for the big ones. But that Festgeltkonte, now that is just enough money to buy the bus driver from Manchester City. So that is not the same force that they used to have. Although, although when they had a chance to get Kane they found some around 100 million euros. So I think that speaks for them.
- [09:09]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah, when it, when it came.
- [09:10]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Exactly.
- [09:11]
Ayo Akimolere
There's some money under the bed somewhere.
- [09:12]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Exactly.
- [09:13]
Ayo Akimolere
I want to talk about Harry Kane in just a second, Seb, but I want to bring it back to Kompany as well. And you know, in terms of fans, I can imagine Bayern looking, you know, strong at the top of the Bundesliga has appeased some of those fans. But what about the German media as well? Are they all for company? Are they loving what they see?
- [09:30]
Seb Stafford-Blu
German media are fickle. Like media is everywhere. I'm a member of the media, I'm also fickle. So it's not an accusation. No, I don't think there's an overwhelming sentiment. When I read the German press, I think a lot of it is purely informed by whatever the most recent result is. I don't think it's too up, too down. I don't think there is anybody writing op ed pieces about how, hey, you know, we had our doubts about this guy, but this is the person for the next five years. But then I think this is a really important detail because Jan mentioned the role of Christoph Freund, mentioned Max Ebel and we talked about how much quieter the atmosphere. Vincent Kompany is a very different type of coach to his predecessors. So Thomas Tuchel was very much a strongman in footballing terms because he's the guy that wants to dominate the club. He wants to be the lead personality, he wants influence everywhere. Whereas Vincent Kompany is just a component within a system like Ebbel, like Freund. He is just someone within the Bayern Munich mechanism doing their job. And I think that is never going to inspire the kind of following or acclaim of kind of an old style dynastic, you know, quote unquote manager. But then I also think, I don't, I don't think there's any need for anybody to get carried away because I think at the moment the most the positive spin on it is the situation is healthy. They have a really good lead in the Bundesliga. They can afford to lose in Leverkusen on February 15th and they should get in, they should get past Celtic. There's plenty of respect for what Celtic represent in the game and their danger. Celtic hammered RB Leipzig in Glasgow in the autumn of 2024. So nobody thinks that's going to be an easy game in Germany. But then there is still a lot to prove. I think the time when you might see attitudes change are around the Champions League progress, but also what happens in this final few months of the season. Remember also that one of the big things about being Bayern Munich coach is not necessarily performance. It's being able to juggle all the personalities and ego and the politics of the club. And Jan made reference to this too. They've got so many tricky contract situations. Yes, Masiala is expected to be renewed. Neue was renewed over the weekend. We know about that on Monday that was announced. But there are like, there are variables in the future. So what's going to happen with Leon Gretzka? What's going to happen with Leros and a. Also what's going to happen when Kompany has to deal directly with players who perhaps don't get the future that they want to. That is incredibly challenging situation. So I think people are waiting and they're keeping their powder dry for how does he navigate those issues? Because, well, far more experienced coaches than Vincent Kompany have struggled under the weight of those issues before. So let's, let's just, let's, let's hold for further evidence.
- [12:03]
Ayo Akimolere
I think Kompany, this is a massive job for him. You know, this is one of the biggest footballing brands in the world and especially how Bayern ended last season and you know, just spoken about a lot of the politics that's going on in the background. Surely let's just get the Bundesliga out the way. This is great, it's a nice movement. Let's move forward and then we can start thinking about Champions League a little further on down the line. This is still very new territory for a very young coach.
- [12:27]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
It is. But it also has to be known that the most important thing for Bayern always is to win the Bundesliga. And that sounds like a cliche but they, they want to win the Bundesliga and everything else is a dessert. They, they kind of expect to take the double. By the way, if you see a, a Kovac or a Felix Maggot or Guardiola and heinks they all, they all winning the double there. But yeah, they would love to do that. But I think one of the skeptical thing about Kompany is that he seems to not as brutal that it was at Burnley but that thing that when he plays against better opposition they can just be a bit clever, just wait for them a bit. And yes, Upamecano and the central defense, they've been better but they still very vulnerable when you play that easy pass behind them as we saw this weekend. But I think if they end up now going having an okay run in the Champions League that means they knock out Celtic and then you're down to to the draw on you and you can see that it's not an easy way for them to get to the final. But yes, noise is one thing. The way they play, how you entertain the crowd and I think one that we haven't we alluded to it, is that the way they are playing people like the way they were playing the last couple of seasons. It hasn't been great to watch either. Although they would tuchel there when Dortmund lost it against Mainz at home or just got a draw and Bayern just won it. And then Leverkus, they haven't been happy with the way they're playing and they are cool to watch Bayern, I like to watch them. They have some great players in midfield. Kane will score his goals, Kimmich will do his part. It's a cool team to watch. Now.
- [14:17]
Seb Stafford-Blu
You'Re listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolere.
- [14:21]
Allstate Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it? Yeah, Checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and.
- [14:50]
Diana Rossini
Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois hey everybody, it's Diana Rossini from the Scoop City podcast. It's super bowl week and the eyes of the world are on New Orleans to see if the Chiefs can make history or if the Eagles are ready to reign on their parade. Myself, Robert Mays, Derek Claassen and a whole host of NFL reporters and special guests will be live streaming every day from Radio Row covering all the build up to Sunday showdown. Join us on the Athletic HQ YouTube account every day at 5pm Eastern time. It's not to be missed.
- [15:26]
Harry Kane
Guerrero's delivery.
- [15:27]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Kane.
- [15:30]
Harry Kane
Unstoppable. A goal right at the end of the first half, a goal right at the start of the second. He is Bayern's goal guarantee.
- [15:42]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, that's talk about Kane, Seb. You know, there was an interesting interview with him in France football recently, Seb, and he said, look, I think that the best Harry Kane is yet to come. I'm very confident about that and very confident about the fact that my second part of my career, the one that he's opening now, will be rich in major trophies. Look, I know you're a Spurs fan, but I don't want to throw any shade, but come on, you've got to give it to the guy. It's about time he picked up a trophy. He's worked hard for it. Seb.
- [16:11]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah. You and I will have a very blunt exchange of views after we've stop recording, but for now I'll focus on the question. Yeah, like I, I think it's a really interesting observation on his own career because I was at the Hoffenheim game a couple of weeks ago and Bayern won very easily. And so he had the opportunity to kind of focus on individual performances. And I think one of the themes this season has been, you know, how deep Kane has been when he's picked up the ball. Like not just in the sort of the England sense or spurs sense where he was kind of often a playmaker or, you know, playing big diagonals from one touchline to the other. But you frequently see him taking the ball off his goalkeeper now or one of his center halves is actually the first receiver. And I think, you know, he's become a much more rounded player. He's had to, I think, because there is a bit of wear and tear there. He's taken a Lot of injuries. He's played an awful lot of football. His career is. Has been going on a long time and, you know, to play that long in England, which is such an attritional league, of course it's, you know, it's going to. Going to leave a mark. But, yeah, I can absolutely see that. You know, he will likely win the Bundesliga this season. And you can see, if you look at the demographics of this Bayern side, Musiala, but also Pavlovic. I'm a really, really big fan of Tom Bischoff, who they've just signed from Hoffenheim, who joined in the summer. I think he's a wonderful footballer in the making. Like, if you add Kane to that mix in a team, that's going to get better and better, you can absolutely see that being the case. It's interesting, though, because there is a conversation in German football amongst certain members of the media who think that Kane is no longer adequate, he will no longer be good enough to take them to major trophies, by which they mean the Champions League. And so you've seen people say things like, well, you know, if they want to compete at that, they need to start thinking about life after Kane, which is an extraordinary thing to say because he's only been there for 18 months, really. But, yeah, I think he'll. You know, as ever, anytime someone has said something like that about Harry Kane in public, they've generally been made to look pretty silly quickly afterwards. So I would expect that to happen again.
- [18:02]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Whenever I watch Bundesliga highlights on the Internet, you know, the English version, the comment from the commentator is always, harry Kane does what Harry Kane does every week. Yet another goal and another. A lot has been made about the price Bayern paid for him. Actually, at that age, coming into the Bundesliga and back to Seb's point, I mean, there's no doubt that he's scoring the goals. But is he the striker to take Bayern to a Champions League cup? Is he the guy? Because, you know, they've just got rid of Mattis. Tell who people are talking about. I mean, Mattis tells. Probably looked at it and gone, there's no way I'm getting into this squad. But for the future of Bayern, who is there to help them get to the very top? Is it Harry Kane?
- [18:45]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Well, first of all, Bayern fans should go into church and pray that Kane will stay fit, because that's the only striker they've got. Now, that is point number one. It's also because he's scoring a lot of goals and he's always done this in his career, to be fair to him. But he's also, what a fantastic way to play in a Bayern team that always create chances. You have people in and around him, you can just look around if he's sane. Koman, Gnabry, Muzzi.
- [19:11]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Allah.
- [19:11]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
And I probably forgot someone that will create chances for him, as will Chris Wood in Nottingham Forest when you see the people he got around if he keeps White Elanga and Hudson Odoi. So, so that is a dream come true for any striker. Is he good enough to take them to the next steps? I guess that is always a narrative that journalists, media, people like us will always do to have something to discuss. Because I've seen teams winning the Champions League without a striker. I've seen teams winning the Champions League with the best strikers. So you always had them around. But for the time being, Harry Kane will score his goals. He's also been criticized because he's not scoring against the best teams. But I think that is always a consequence of a player that is doing well. I mean, that is the same with Erling Haaland in England. He has never scored against a team that has yellow shirts in November and all those kind of things. So Harry Kane is doing a fantastic job at Bayern, but we have to know that for Bayern is all about the Bundesliga. They, they should win and we should do it always. So everything else is the Champions League. And there he will be compelled with Robert Lewandowski. So that is just the name of the game. But a fantastic player. And to Seb's point, that he's getting deeper and deeper. They let him do that because they have so many kind of players with full of energy. They're going forward and well, he's not only a number nine, he is a fantastic footballer as well. Harry Kane. So that serves him and Bayern well.
- [20:49]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Seb, earlier we spoke about, you know, very tricky contract situations that Bayern have at this moment. But I'm sure they'll be happy to have locked down Alfonso Davis on a new four and a half year contract. Much like another fallback in the uk. Trent Alexander Arnold, he was linked to Real Madrid as well. What happened there?
- [21:07]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Well, he was linked to a lot of places. There was a lot of talk. There was certainly interest. I've always felt he would renew. I didn't ever think that that was in doubt. I think yes, there were, there were other clubs who were interested. Real Madrid were probably the closest. There was some interest from Manchester United. I don't think, and this is just my opinion, I never got to A point where I realistically thought Alphonso Davis would not renew his contract. But it's a great deal like he's a very popular member of the squad. He gives them something from left full back that I don't think any other player currently at that level in world football can provide. That combination of kind of dynamism, footballing ability, but also just. He must be terrifying to play against one on one. I don't know what you do if you've got kind of Messiah. If you're. If you're a right sided fullback and you're playing against, for argument's sake, Kingsley Coman one on one. You've also got Jamal Masiala inside and you've got Alphonso Davis potentially over or underlapping you. I don't know what you do with that. It's a very, very difficult combination to cope with. So great news for Bayern. Never had any doubts that it would happen. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO AKA Molera.
- [22:29]
Harry Kane
Grimaldo with it might be able to keep this alive and take that low shot. Oh my goodness, what a finish from Robert and he to give Leverkusen the lead. Their first chance here at the Allianz arena and Andrich has buried it.
- [22:48]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's dig deeper into the Bundesliga title race this season. It's not foregone conclusion yet, but Bayern are currently six points ahead of Leverkusen who are in second place. But play them away next Saturday the 15th. I'm hoping you both have told your partners that you are only going to be watching Bundesliga football for Valentine's weekend, please. But Seb, I don't think this is a title decided necessarily because obviously Bayern a few points ahead. But this is a major moment really to see how well this Bayern team can do because the first time Leverkusen played Bayern this season under company they drew they're out of the cup and this is going to be a really telling game.
- [23:28]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah, well, I think if Bayern win, the title is over. I think it does become a decider because that becomes nine points. But you look back at those previous games. So the game at Allianz was very strange because Leverkusen really came for the draw. They sat behind the ball and were very content with the point. So that was kind of a sort of strange spectacle. The Pokow game was obviously altered by Manuel Neuer's red card. And I still think, actually I know Leverkusen won the game, but I think Bayern were better that night even with 10 men. Nevertheless, I'm really, really impressed by What Leverkusen have done probably over the last two or three months. Domestically they had that loss early season to RB Leipzig where they lost their unbeaten record. Ever since then, yeah, there's been this slight sloppiness to some of their defensive work. There's been a carelessness with Leeds. I don't think you deny that they lost a two goal lead to Leipzig not just a few weeks ago. So those issues are not. Have not gone away entirely. They are still playing really, really well in the attacking sense. And I still think Florian Virt is the best player in the country. He's just absolutely terrorizing players when he has the ball at his feet. And it's going to be really interesting, I think. I don't necessarily think there's been a massive regression from Leverkusen this season. I just think that some of their individual performances were absolutely outstanding last season. If you think about, I think the big one is probably Grimaldo. Grimaldo was brilliant last season. Very, very close to being Bundesliga player of the year in my eyes. Hasn't quite been the same individually. Some of those defenders haven't met the same standard. I was surprised when they sold Cousinho in the summer to Atalanta. I thought he was an excellent player. It's a bit of a shame Granit Xhaka is getting older. Is not quite where he was last season either. They've had injuries to Victor Boniface which was really disruptive. Again, Patrick Schick has played quite well, but it's not quite the same. Jonas Hoffman hasn't been available. Like my point is they are still a really, really good side. They are a team that has to be beaten. This is not just a kind of a Bundesliga season where Bayern disappear over the, over the hill, win the title by, you know, the first of February and that's that. This is a title that's going to have to be won. And beating this Leverkusen past the post is going to be a major achievement too.
- [25:38]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Jan, this is the thing. You know, as journalists, we're always going to be picking the bones. Why aren't Leverkusen as good as they were last season? I mean, what they did last season for that team, for that club was outlandish, right? So to expect it again, it's kind of foolish. But I guess one of the beautiful things about this Lavis Cousin squad is that the core of that team are still there. Usually you see so many of these players gone and picked off after they've had a wonderful season. Is it as easy as saying, look Leverkusen aren't as good as last season because 20 games played. Leverkusen had several more points this time last season. Or is it just, you know what people have figured out how to play against them.
- [26:14]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
I think the greatest debate is how could it be so good last season. I think that is if we start there and we remember last season Seb was talking about it. There were some key players were on fire going forward with Boniface, with Shik, with Wirt. They were scoring goals for fun now when they needed someone and Rich will put in a goal and everything. So we always knew that this season will be different because it takes time to establish a team on a top level. Bayern have done this for like 50 years. So there is a culture that needs to be done. The good thing about Leverkusen, if they end up second this season, that's a good season for them. That is good. As you were saying, they managed to keep some of the players or the most of the players. And that is because they're waiting for what Xabi Alonso will be doing. Because the management at Leverkusen with Caro, with Simon Rollfus and Meshabi Alonso, they are the keys. And you're talking about the big dreams of Bayern is to get Florian Wirtz and Musiala in the same team that is Leonard McCarthy in the Bundesliga. That's what I want to do. The only problem is first of all if Alonso goes to Real Madrid, he will probably take Floribit with him. So I hope of course that Leverkusen will win that game. Not that I'm. I want Leverkus to win the. I want Frankfurt to win it. They are third in the league. So that's my team. But. But I would like that for the excitement. But if Bayern win and they could do. Absolutely then that is the decider. But I've been still impressed about how they built the club and we see so many examples in English football and I'm not only talking about Manchester United. Oh yes, I probably do is the how. How important is to build a football club. And Leverkusen with all these reputations they had that we talked so many times of Neverkusen never been able to the last get. Get the team over the line. So I'm very impressed of what I've done that I just hope if Xabi Alonso goes, they still got something there. They still got a culture. They. They get a coach in that can kind of take that legacy on from. From Alonso because they're also fun to watch. And yes, this two, two against Leipzig that killed it a bit, didn't it? Because then there will be four points up to Bayern. The wind for Leverkusen home dome to one point at least we could have some excitement. So now I'm impressed.
- [28:39]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. And do you think, Seb, that Leverkusen as a structure have enough in there to deal for life beyond Xabi Alonso? Can they rebuild if a coach so significant like that moves on?
- [28:52]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah. I would add in Simon Rolfs. Like I would say Alonso will be in a lot, would be in high demand and has been for a long time now. Rolfs too deserves to be. His work on the architecture of that squad has been outstanding and he is as much, he owns as much of the success as Alonso does. I don't know. I'm worried because I would say that when you experience the high of a success like that, which was not just a double, unbeaten double, it's an amazing season which we'll be talking about in 10 years time when a coach like that leaves. And I think Jan's right. I think Florian Wirtz's future is tied to Alonso. I think he'll follow him wherever he goes and he will be right to do that because he's played so outstanding well under him. I don't know how you survive losing being how you get over a moment in time. How you lose one of the great up and coming coaches in world football and how you lose the best player in Germany in quick succession. I don't know how you emotionally recover from those things. There are still some good players there, but I just, I think to say that they could just reproduce this by power of recruitment is to kind of. To overestimate even how many Florin Wirzes there are in any generation or how many, how many times you have for instance, the opportunity to anchor a team like that with experience like Granit Xhaka at that particular moment in his career. Exactly the right time for him to come in and do that job. Prior Bundesliga experience, being in the Premier League, he can become a kind of not quite father, but uncle of a side. Grimaldo too. It's very, very difficult to meld all of those things together. And this wasn't just a kind of piece by piece success because Leverkusens don't happen like that. They need to a capitalize on their own good work and upwardly mobile careers and being able to attract people like Xabi Alonso. That doesn't happen either because remember he was, that was his first senior coaching job. But also to capitalize on Bayern having a little bit of a drop, despite all of their financial advantages and technical strength in their squad. So it's going to be incredibly challenging. Really, really is.
- [30:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, let's move on. Jan, let's talk about Leipzig. I know you want to talk about Frankfurt, but let's talk about Leipzig just for now. They're the second biggest spender behind Bayern over the last two transfer windows. They recently completed the permanent transfer of Xabi Simmons from PSG for a fee of around 81 million euros, depending on bonuses. Is that the kind of statement that you want to see from a team like that? Because, you know, people have always questioned this sort of Red Bull ownership, what their impetus is and what they want to do in these particular leagues. But he is a top, top talent, very similar to Wirt O Leverkusen, a player you can anchor a team around.
- [31:31]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Well, it starts with the background is that both RBE Leipzig and Dortmund were in shock that Leverkusen would be the team that will take a Bundesliga title away from Bayern. That was the first thing that was a shock for Leipzig. And then now with Jurgen Klopp, that is a statement as well. So that Czech, that was the first statement. Xavi Simons has always been there, was always discussing every transfer window. Should he go alone or should he go to Bayern? Will they have an option to Bayern? So I think that this is also an investment for them to make sure that this is. This player that we have kind of developed is going to be ours. But I like that Leipzig is doing that. I like that the Red Bull is doing that. I like that they take on Bayern because the German Bundesliga need that. That is the. When we always discuss Bundesliga is all about Bayern and Leipzig, Dortmund and Leverkusen. Of course, I will also say Frankfurt, not just because I play there, because. Because Frankfurt has taken a position that they are the best of the rest. And if you know the club, they're very good organized, they're a very good management at the club and so on. But back to Leipzig. I think it's going to be interesting now to see what impact Klopp will have there. Because when he sat down with Mintzlaff, the head of all our operations at Red Bull at the moment, of course he will ask, so what will you do with a team? Because it's fine to kind of follow that Red Bull philosophy like Ragnick made. They should be under 23, they should be quick and they should be this and they should be that. But the modern football need even more. So I think that Xavi is the first sign that which direction Red Bull will go, I would say under Minslav and Jurgen Klopp.
- [33:17]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, look, Seb, you know, we've talked about Leverkusen, talked about Leipzig, Frankfurt, have even sneaked in there. We haven't spoken about Dortmund. Look, I've. Of how many people have been at the helm of Dortmund? Niko Kovac is in the job right now. Nuri Sahin obviously exited. Can we just sum up exactly what has gone on with Dortmund this season? Because I'm just looking at Bundesliga. 11th in the Bundesliga right now. If you look at their current form, it's absolutely awful.
- [33:47]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah, okay, so. So going back to the Champions League final afterwards, Eden Terzic stepped aside and Nura Shaheen, who had joined the club as one of his assistants back in January, took his place. He was very much a Terzich recommendation. And as with everything at Brissier Dortmund, you know, it was kind of geared around his past and what he stood for and the fact that he was a, you know, he played for Britt Dortmund. He grew up locally and as a Borussia Dortmund fan. And the idea was to kind of move back towards the aggressive, transitional dynamic football that Dortmund became known for. Under Jurgen Klopp and Thomas Tuchel under Terzic, they'd been quite successful, but at its best the football could be quite businesslike. I don't think that's terribly unfair. They were quite cautious. There was no house style. It was very much about the individual players and Shaheen. They had moments. They had moments when the football was quite good. I think fundamentally it was pretty flawed. Their balance between attack and defense was pretty difficult to watch at times. When they went forward, they tended to over commit. They're very vulnerable to the two transitions. I think all of that is secondary. Secondary to one of the criticisms you heard again and again, particularly about Dortmund performances away from the Westfalenstadion, like character, all the things that you would associate with Dortmund of the past, they did not have. There were words like entitlement, arrogance, laziness thrown at them for their performances away from home. And not unfairly so, not every player deserved that. But I think if you look at some of the individual senior performances particularly, and this is probably one of the worst Dortmund performances I've seen in a decade, when they lost at Holston Keel Bright at the beginning of January, when they came back from The Winterpause, they were 30 down at halftime and it could have been 5. They were that bad. They were absolutely dreadful. And I'll be honest, some of the Individual performances from players who. From senior internationals. I would say unprofessional, absolutely appalling. And so I think Shaheen's mistake was there wasn't enough honesty or he didn't have enough seniority or enough experience to be really quite honest with some of the players there and to, if necessary, alienate some of them in pursuit of a kind of higher standard. And one of the criticisms that sort of followed them around the season also is that there is too much belief in Dortmund, in Dortmund. So to explain that, obviously we talked about Shaheen being a former player, but Sebastian Kiel, sports director, former player, the CEO for Football for Sport, Lars Ricken, former player like, it's very much a Dortmund place. And I think what I like about Niko Kovac coming in to replace him is it represents a kind of a throwing open of the window. Kovac is not an obvious candidate for that job. Jan will have fond memories of him for what he was able to do at Eintracht a couple of years ago when he won the Pokal in 2018. Kovac is all about teamwork. He is all about commitment to the kind of the collective cause. If someone strays from that path, he will not be afraid to fall out with them. He has had situations at different clubs, so from Eintracht he went to Bayern, from Bayern he went to Monaco, from Monaco to Wolfsburg. And there have been situations, all of those clubs where players have not bought in into the kind of collective enterprise and they've been called out as a result. And Dortmund need a bit of that now. They need a bit of bracing honesty, they need a few stones thrown. And so I kind of like it. There are still some issues regarding recruitment because I think barely a week goes past without the German media reporting on some kind of agreement between Sebastian Kiel, sporting director, and Sven Misentat, the technical director, about kind of their differences of opinion regarding transfer targets and Svenders. And that job is a little bit vague at the moment. Not sure whether he's going to be at the club beyond the end of the season. So they need a little bit of cohesiveness and tranquility at the top of the tree too. But Kovac is definitely a first step because I feel like defensive standards need to rise. He'll do that because that's very much in his coaching DNA. He has some non negotiables about how his teams defend. It's his way or nothing at all. And frankly, a lot of those Dortmund players need to stop making individual mistakes with the ball and without the ball. And that's been a commonality through so many Dortmund defeats. Just mistakes, errors, terrible, terrible moments which have cost them points. Jan looks like he wants to say something.
- [38:09]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Yeah, I'm just saying that because I just want to add to what you say. I mean, you rightly. Everything. There's nothing I disagree on, but I think what Dortmund need most now is a culture. They have no idea where they're going. They're only thinking of that big guy called Jurgen Klopp. How can we find back to him? Okay, we take Terzic. He was a fan of all his life. So that's the Dortmund. As you were saying then. Nourish is a legend and two times a Dortmund. And yes, it's all about which coach comes after which coach. So now the right thing is to take Nico. I know Nico not only from the Frankfurt I played against him. It was also for Croatia, for the national team, when I was with the national team. He is a great guy, he is a leader. But remember the whole people around them. And you said Kale, you said Rick, and you said them all around them. But then you have Vatsk, who is still hanging around. Then you have Matthias Summer, who sits there with his hat in every game. Yeah, Looking grumpier and grumpier for every game. And you just wondering who are deciding in that club. And then they are. Now they take Kovacan. They were looking for an interim coach. Just doing them till this summer. Nikola is not being stupid. He said, that is no chance. I won't go on there and fix that for the new coach. So I want at least 1 1/2 year contract. The problem is that Dortmund, as for today, and maybe the last two years, and the exception being the Champions League final, which is not a bad exception, by the way. There is something about the culture, there is something about the character. If they go down, as Seb was talking about, like Helsinki, every player go down. If you're 18, 25, 33, you are the most experienced. There is something the attitude at that club. And I think that I've played in Dortmund. I love Dortmund. I love to work in Dortmund because it's a fantastic stadium. But the core business of every club is to find a culture. This is what we're going to do within management. This is what is a consequence. We want to take the coaches in, we want to have the players in to do that. And right now, for people who haven't followed Dortmund so much the last time, now they are in a. There is a. Their identity. They have no clue because they Used to take a Sancho, a Bellingham, a Haaland to make good players into great, great players. They still got some young players, but that philosophy is stumbling a bit at the moment as well. Well, so Dortmund are in a terrible shape. And now someone said that Niko Kovac was a young Felix Maggot. I have had both. I've had Felix Maga. There is no chance that Niko Kovac is that. But as Seb was saying, this is a man who will come in and say, this is the way, or you're out of the doors. And I think that they need that. And then the whole muppet show around the club, who's on the balcony, all around the club, club need to let him do that because that is the main thing now. They have to steady the ship now for this season, maybe get them into Europe somehow. And they got enough players to do that.
- [41:18]
Seb Stafford-Blu
I think if I was a Dortmund fan, one of the things that would really worry me is Jan mentioned recruitment in the past and how good they used to be at delivering players from one level of the game to the absolute summit. Now, if you look around the league, I think if you look particularly at clubs like Eintracht or Ober Leipzig, I think you see players there who would wonder who would previously have played for Dortmund in the past. So whether that would be someone like Mahmouche or Ekatike, who I love. I think ekatike is potentially 100 million euro player in the making. He's fantastic, I think. But then Noosa Shesco or Pender, players like this, these would have been Dortmund players of the past. The other thing, and what I find really interesting, and this kind of, to me really represents the dysfunction at Dortmund, is Jan mentioned Matteo Sammer. Well, one of the conversations over the past weeks has been Matteo Sammer has a consultancy role at Borussia Dortmund, but he also works as a pundit on Champions League games and German television. And so you had this situation for a while where Sammer was working on German television, criticizing Dortmund performances in the Champions League and then going back to work as a consultant. And so there had to be a situation where I think Lars Ricken intervened. And here Matteo Samate Sama, obviously a wonderful player in his time, one of the best players of his generation, clearly a Dortmund icon, but it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You just can't have it. And so he's agreed now to not work on Borussia Dortmund games anymore. But it's a kind of. It's such an easy thing. To avoid. And yet it's managed to happen. And a lot of things need to start making sense. And if you're a player making your way through the game, if you're 20 years old, you want to look around at clubs where things make sense. You know what a club represents. You know that a club is able to kind of progress your career. You know your club is going to not stand in your way when it's time for you to move up in the game. So Mahmouche is a perfect example of that. Eintracht recognized he's playing brilliantly, but he's reached the summit of his development with us. It's time for him to go. These things matter to young players. Dortmund has lost that a little bit. Dortmund is. No one really knows what Dortmund is and that includes the players who play there and they can still make careers. I think Jamie Gittins is a fantastic player and he's going to only get better over the years and he's going to be extremely valuable. He's an exception rather than rule now. And that's really worrying for Dortmund moment.
- [43:36]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, let's finish on this because we've spoken about a shift in culture within various clubs. We've spoken about Leipzig, you know, obviously Bayern, Leverkusen as well. Now Bayern potentially are on the road to another Bundesliga title. But despite the. The blip that Leverkusen gave us last season, it was 11 years in a row. Now we've seen a shift in culture in various teams in the Bundesliga. Do you feel it's the same dominance for Bayern moving forward or are people wising up? Because for the product of the Bundesliga, Bayern winning it every year isn't that great.
- [44:08]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
I will end this podcast as I started it and I said no. Yes, because I. Because I think that yes, in terms of Bayern will have a chance to pay higher wages but then the other clubs need to be better in other departments. What Seb was saying there were like Dortmund now missing that advantage as well. Missing out of the good players players. And it's also interesting to see that back in the days some of the best players in the world played for Bayern. And it's all depend how long they can hold on to them. Because if a Musial and and we guess he will extend his contract, he will still have a clause in there because Bayern won't be his end station Joshua Cambridge coming to his 30s. There is a lot of players there coming to an end. Manuel Neuer, they have like four or five goalkeepers, no Bayern, but they need to Replace them. And, and, and so I think there is a chance for the other clubs if they work hard on the culture, if it's a good run club as Frankfurt is doing as Leverkusen is doing at Leipzig with all the power they are having. The, the problem of course is that the advantage Bayern have is that culture the expectations there. And, and there you see they. And the best example of everything we discussed really today between Dortmund and Bayern is that game when Dortmund just need to get a win or at home against Mainstone can't do it and Bayern they are playing away from home and I know have clue that they won the league. That is for me a consequence of a good culture and a bad culture. And I think they need to have calmness on their manager position we started talking about or the coach position. I think that company they need to put all their faith in him. I think that is important. The only thing that can and I've said that for many years the only thing that can break them down if they have a. They get a wrong coach in. The problem is if they have a wrong coach they are very clear to. To fire them straight away. I think there was a big mistake to fire Julian Nagelsmann. I think Julian Nagelsmann could have built something for the future at Bayern if they supported him 100%. And Ole Hoenes came out just this week and said back in the day Salahmic and Oliver Kahn both go know by the way that came as a surprise for them as well. Having said that Uli Hernes know how to end the story by him being the right guy which has been so many times.
- [46:39]
Seb Stafford-Blu
But the hero of every anecdote.
- [46:41]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
Yeah, exactly. But I think that I, I think Bayern will win it this year but I, I don't. I, I don't think they will win it. 11 in a row and we can, we can have an appointment in 2036 boys.
- [46:53]
Ayo Akimolere
Can we do that?
- [46:54]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Can we do that?
- [46:54]
Ayo Akimolere
I had no intention of still.
- [46:56]
Seb Stafford-Blu
It was still, still being a thing on this podcast podcast.
- [46:59]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
12 years. I'm too old. I'm nearly 80.
- [47:03]
Seb Stafford-Blu
I'm only dead.
- [47:07]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. How do you feel? It'd be like some sort of robot.
- [47:09]
Jan Aga Fjordoft
AI I would come in with my wheelchair.
- [47:13]
Seb Stafford-Blu
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:17]
Ayo Akimolere
J Honestly, wonderful way to end the pod Se. Thank you so much for your time and also for more Bundesliga coverage, make sure you check out out the Athletic and also Jan's brilliant show the Foosball Channel as well. We'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [47:32]
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