Will Chelsea's lack of discipline cost them?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic FC Podcast

Episode: Will Chelsea’s lack of discipline cost them?

Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Jack Pitt-Brooke, Adam Crafton

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Main Theme

This episode dissects Chelsea’s increasingly visible discipline issues, asking if their rash of red cards and youthful volatility threaten their claims as serious Premier League title contenders. The panel unpacks Chelsea’s recent 1–1 draw with Arsenal — played largely with 10 men — and explores how Chelsea’s development, recruitment, and tactical identity stack up against their rivals. Broader context emerges around title expectations, changing club identities, and how Chelsea’s ownership is evolving through the chaos of the Premier League’s shifting landscape.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Chelsea vs Arsenal: Was it a Missed Opportunity for Arsenal?

[01:34 – 03:53]

• Arsenal Perspective: Despite only drawing with 10-man Chelsea, Arsenal are five points clear atop the league and have navigated some of their hardest fixtures. “If you’d have offered them a point at the start, they’d have taken it.” — Jack Pitt-Brooke (02:08)
• Absence of Saliba and Gabriel in Arsenal’s defense was noticed but not disastrous; their squad depth is supposed to cope with such injuries.

2. Chelsea’s Resilience Without Caicedo

[03:53 – 06:02]

• Red Card Impact: Moisés Caicedo’s red card before half-time (“a ridiculous tackle” — Adam Crafton, 04:36), but Chelsea showed “real strength in midfield even after going down to 10.” (04:05)
• Panel defends Chelsea’s big midfield spending (Enzo Fernández and Caicedo): “Those £100m+ deals don’t look so silly now.” — Adam Crafton (04:41)
• “When he’s on it, there’s not many players out there in the Premier League who are as good as him.” — Adam Crafton on Caicedo (04:48)

3. Rice vs. Caicedo: Experience Shows

[05:03 – 06:02]

• Declan Rice’s “Premier League miles” noted: “He’s probably played more football at this level.” Caicedo is still “learning his trade.” (05:03)
• “Chelsea actually managed to compete with [Rice] really, really well… it was rare to see Arsenal physically matched.” — Adam Crafton (05:36)

4. Physicality, Discipline, and the Stamford Bridge Effect

[06:02 – 08:03]

• The London derby atmosphere brings intensity, with Stamford Bridge described as “chaotic” and an “impactful factor” for big games.
• “Rhys James said… It’s a London derby, and that’s how we play.” — Jack Pitt-Brooke (06:16)
• Chelsea deliberately set out to disrupt Arsenal’s rhythm; Caicedo’s over-zealousness possibly influenced by the build-up.

5. The Discipline Crisis: Numbers and Implications

[08:03 – 09:57]

• Chelsea’s Worrying Stats: Four red cards in 13 league games, six in 20 across competitions this season.
• Could this undiscipline “prove costly in mounting any title challenge?” (08:03)
• Adam Crafton: “Every team needs to balance aggression and discipline. Maresca has given them the classic Chelsea mentality, but Caicedo crossed the line.”
• Discussion on whether disciplinary issues are linked to team inexperience or broader immaturity: “The most positive thing about Chelsea is they are clearly progressing.” (09:57)

6. Chelsea’s Title Credentials and Squad Evolution

[10:42 – 13:17]

• Next fixtures: Leeds, Bournemouth (away), Everton (home). Caicedo's suspension raises the question of how much they'll miss him against lower-table teams.
• More skepticism on Chelsea’s longevity in the title race: “They could go deep in the Champions League, but I don’t think they’ll be around the title run-in come April.” — Adam Crafton (10:57)
• Discipline not just a youth issue: “The red cards have come from experienced players too.” (11:45)

7. Identity Crisis or Growing Pains?

[16:26 – 21:31]

• Chelsea’s identity is debated, with praise for Maresca but uncertainty over his ultimate vision (“not stamped his personality on the league” — Jack Pitt-Brooke, 17:59).
• Chelsea now blend physical, direct play with Guardiola-inspired possession. “They look like a Chelsea team now.” — Adam Crafton (19:54)
• “Do they have enough embedded identity to carry it through the pressure points?” — Ayo (19:36)

8. Is Nine Years without a Title Acceptable?

[21:31 – 23:45]

• Broader context: Only Man City, Liverpool, Leicester have won the league in the last decade. Standards have shifted — the “new normal” is regular Champions League qualification, not necessarily Premier League titles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Arsenal’s Perspective After the Draw
  “They should be really happy with where they are… If you’d have offered them a point at the start, they’d have taken it.”
  — Jack Pitt-Brooke (02:08)

• On Caicedo’s Red Card & Chelsea’s Midfield Investment
  “A lot of the takes that people came out with in 2023 when they spent the £150 million look a bit silly now…. [Caicedo] was deservedly sent off, but when he’s on it, there’s not many players as good as him.”
  — Adam Crafton (04:41)

• On Chelsea’s Aggression and Discipline
  “Can you play with that physical edge and aggression while also not crossing the line? … Caicedo clearly jumped over that line yesterday.”
  — Adam Crafton (09:03)

• On Chelsea’s ‘Maturity’ and Future
  “The most positive thing about Chelsea is that they are growing; they look like they are progressing in the right direction.”
  — Adam Crafton (09:57)

• On Squad Identity:
  “The identity is pretty clear, but not in the way people thought — very dynamic, very physical. They look like a Chelsea team now.”
  — Adam Crafton (19:54)

• On Chelsea’s Transfer Strategy:
  “Every transfer strategy is judged by whether you’re winning or losing… People will say maybe this strategy that we thought was dumb was actually smart.”
  — Adam Crafton (23:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34] — Intro to main discussion: Chelsea’s discipline and Arsenal draw
• [02:08] — Arsenal’s point of view after Chelsea draw
• [03:53] — Caicedo’s red card and Chelsea’s midfield depth
• [04:41] — Value of Chelsea’s investment in midfield
• [06:16] — London derby atmosphere and how it shapes the game
• [08:03] — Chelsea’s red card statistics and consequences
• [09:57] — Are Chelsea simply maturing? Team evolution debate
• [10:57] — How suspensions and discipline could derail Chelsea
• [16:42] — Have Chelsea surprised this year?
• [17:59] — Maresca’s identity and tactical influence
• [19:54] — How Chelsea’s style and squad have shifted
• [21:31] — Nine years without a Premier League title: Is that OK?
• [23:45] — Are Chelsea’s transfers vindicated or still chaotic?
• [28:35 - 32:33] — Club identity and ownership cycles: Chelsea in comparison

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Tone & Language

The discussion is lively but analytical. The pod frequently contrasts fan and media narratives (“Are we being too soft on Chelsea given what they’ve spent?” — Adam Crafton, 12:30) while highlighting numbers and context. There’s a strong balance — both praise and skepticism — regarding Chelsea’s progress.

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Conclusion

The episode offers a clear-eyed look at Chelsea’s evolving identity amid organizational chaos and Premier League pressures. The recurring thread is how discipline (or the lack thereof), squad maturity, and transfer policy are all interwoven — not just for immediate results this season, but for Chelsea’s return to the summit of English and European football. The hosts agree: Chelsea may not be ready to win it all now, but their trajectory is upward, provided they harness their aggression without self-sabotage.

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For listeners pressed for time:

• Start at [01:34] for the Chelsea-Arsenal and discipline debate.
• [08:03] and [09:57] for the in-depth discussion on team maturity and discipline.
• [16:42] and [19:54] cover Chelsea’s evolving tactical identity and transfer policy.
• [21:31] dives into broader expectations and what “success” looks like for Chelsea in 2025.

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For further coverage:

• Next week’s pod will return to Chelsea’s title credentials as their campaign unfolds through the festive fixtures.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

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[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. Chelsea took a point from Arsenal despite once again being down to 10 men. So will their ill discipline stop them being title contenders? All right, with us today we've got Jack Pitt. Brooke. We've also got Adam Crafton as well. Adam, the points were shared at Stamford Bridge on Sunday despite Chelsea being down to 10 men for the entirety of the second half. Was it a chance missed by Arsenal from your perspective?

[Jack Pitt]

I guess so. But I mean they're still five points clear in start of December. They've been to probably some of their hardest games already in terms of, you know, they've been to Liverpool, been to Chelsea, been to Old Trafford. So I think they should be really happy with, with where they are and if you'd have offered them a point, I think at the start of that game that have taken it. So you always want to win every game but I don't think it's like any kind of disaster that, that they didn't, you know, Take too many risks in that game.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, I mean last week we spoke about obviously Arsenal fans not being the ones that aren't convinced that this team is actually quite good and can actually win the title. But I mean I did wonder how Arsenal would fare without their main two center backs playing Saliba and obviously Gabrielle. How do you think the team coach without it? It looks relatively, I wouldn't say shaky necessarily, but it looks as comp. It usually would.

[Jack Pitt]

I thought they were fine. Chelsea were sort of competitive and physical if I didn't think Arsenal looked like particularly vulnerable or anything like that. Obviously everyone's going to be worse when they've not got their best two center backs and I think that might be a problem over the next few weeks, you know, in terms of definitely Gabrielle being missing and maybe it had an impact on the set piece. Although defending set pieces, they had some issues last season anyway at times so. Yeah, for sure. But I mean that's why they've spent hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds to be fine when they've got an issue like this and they've got lots of different options to play at the back. So you know, okay, they've had some injuries but everyone has injuries and that's why they've, you know, they spent on depth in the summer. So I don't think anyone at Arsenal can or is or will be complaining about injuries over the next few weeks.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, going into this game Jack, people were talking about the sort of Caicedo, Declan Rice kind of head to head. Caicedo was sent off before half time. How do you think Chelsea as a team coped without him?

[Adam Crafton]

Pretty well actually. I think the, the fact that they managed to get a point from the game shows that they actually dealt with that red card really well. I thought that they've clearly got a lot of strength there in midfield, haven't they? And I just think that when I watched Chelsea there was so much kind of crowing from some people when they spent all that money on Fernandez and Caicedo and I think a lot of that crowing looks pret stupid now actually because they, you know, Fernandez and Caicedo been fantastic players this season. Obviously Caicedo made a bad mistake. It was a ridiculous tackle. He deserved, was deservedly sent off. But I think when he, when he's on it there's not, there's not many players out there in the Premier League who are as good as him. And I think a lot of the takes that people came out with in 2023 when they spent the £150 million look a bit silly now and actually I think Chelsea realized that 100 plus million pounds is probably just the going rate for a top level central midfielder. So yeah, obviously they're better with Caicedo on the pitch but even after he was sent off I thought they dealt with it well. Rhys James was fantastic and central midfield again and Chelsea were just pretty good.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, for sure. Do you think there's a difference in terms of. I wouldn't say class necessarily but I look at the miles that someone like Declan Rice has in the Premier League and someone like Caicedo, you know, Caicedo getting sent off, I mean these things will happen. This is still a player learning his trade. He's 24 for sure. But I think Declan Rice at that level has probably played more football.

[Adam Crafton]

I'd say yeah, Rice, an amazing player like Rice has been probably the standout central midfielder in the Premier League this season. He's, he's really good but again, you know, he was 100 plus million pounds as well. I just think that is ultimately how much it costs to get, to get a Premier League proven or Premier League ready central midfielder who can, who's really strong both technically and physically, you know. And that's as true of Caicedo as it is of Rice. So yeah, I thought, you know, he's obviously an amazing player but I thought Chelsea actually managed to compete with him really, really well. And it was rare to see like normally Arsenal have got the physical edge over whoever they play. But what was interesting about this game is that Chelsea really match physically and Arsenal didn't have that same physical dominance they normally have.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, I want to talk about the physicality actually a really good point Jack, because Mikel Arteta spoke post match about the red card being when the game kind of settled from the off. This was front footed. Adam. You could see both teams were up for it, Chelsea in particular.

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah, I think Rhys James said, I just saw him do an interview after the game where he was like, well it's a London derby and that's how we play. London Derbys, Stamford, I must say, like, I think Stamford Bridge can have a really good atmosphere when it is up for games. You know, when it sort of gets going it can actually become quite a chaotic place. I think for an away team to try and play football on those kind of big games and I think that can have an impact and I think Chelsea, look, we've seen Arsenal go to a lot of these games and try and spoil them. You know that has been kind of Arsenal's strategy as well. And I don't mean that as a pejorative. I think Chelsea wanted to do a bit of that yesterday. They wanted to disrupt Arsenal. You know, they saw an Arsenal team coming. That was if they'd have won yesterday. You're basically almost giving them the medals by Christmas because it would have been really pulling away at that point and it would have, you know, it would have been really hard, I think, for anyone to catch them coming off of, you know, beating Tottenham, beating Bayern Munich, hugely confident side and they, they wanted to disrupt that. So, yeah, I mean these games are going to be physical. I don't know whether the whole kind of build up of Rice v Caicedo got into Caicedo's head a bit. Maybe in, in that split second. I can't read his mind. It was a really like shocking challenge.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

But he looks really fired up from the beginning, I will say.

[Jack Pitt]

But I think he does go into tackles at strange angles sometimes. I was really surprised, actually. I saw he hasn't been sent off before for Chelsea. So it's not, you know, it's not one of those things where it can be like, Caicedo is all disciplined, he's always costing. Chelsea is not. But equally, it didn't surprise you when that happened yesterday at all. And it was a really, it was, you know, it was a bad one that put his team into a. Into a bad position.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

And talking of the physicality, Arsenal had three players booked inside the opening 15 minutes, Jack. But when it comes to Chelsea, that's now four red cards in just 13 Premier League games for this team. Six in 20 in all competition. Seven if you include Enzo Maresca. The red card against Liverpool. Now, thinking about discipline, we're thinking about how young this team is. Could this prove costly if they. To mount some sort of title challenge?

[Adam Crafton]

Yes, yes, it could. It's obviously, you know, makes it a lot harder to win games and, and you know, having. Having top players suspended, particularly for. For fouls like the Caicedo one. If you got. If your best players are going to get three game bans all the time, then that's, that's pretty bad. On the flip side, I do think that one of the best things that Maresca has done has been to take this like kind of unwieldy bunch of players and then turn them into a really strong, unified, coherent team which plays with a physical of the sort of. The Chelsea fans demand. That kind of looks in a sense like a Chelsea team which I think can kind of create those Almost like a kind of classic Stamford Bridge atmosphere was how it sounded on television yesterday when I was watching. Not for the first time this season either. I thought it was a bit like that when they beat Liverpool in October. But yeah, like, I guess the challenge, isn't it for any team is to can you play with that physical edge and aggression and intensity while also not crossing the line and getting players sent off, which is obviously what like Caicedo clearly jumped over that line yesterday. So yeah, it will be something they want to improve, but they also want to lose that physical energy which they play with, which I think is integral now to. To what they're trying to do.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Do you think it's about growing maturity though? I just think about if this team's coming to through together. Jack, we've still got quite a lot of inexperience here in many respects. I think about Arsenal last season and silly cards they picked up in terms of growing together as a team and maturing and going through those phases. Could that be an interesting example of how Chelsea get over this? Perhaps it's not this season. Perhaps it's an evolution to next season.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, and I think, I think the, the most positive thing about Chelsea right now is that like they are growing. Like they, they look like they are progressing in the right direction. You know, they would have gone second if Phil Foden hadn't scored that added time winner against Leeds United. So I think that kind of feels like about where they should be as well. You know, I think they probably are the second best team in the country at the moment, arguably. And suddenly, particularly after winning the Club World cup in the Conference League last season, it does look like Chelsea might challenge for the biggest trophies of all in the next few years. You know, they haven't won the champions league since 2021. They haven't won the premier league since 2017. And yet I think if they can continue in their. You could see this team, if they continue to develop in the right way, actually challenging for those trophies again. So yeah, I do think that they are trending in the right direction.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay. And. Well, next, Adam, they've got Leeds, I think Bournemouth away and then Everton at home as well. I mean, Caicedo's out for a few matches now. Is this the kind of player that will derail where this team's headed? Because on paper you'd think they'd beat Leeds at least.

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah, I saw Leeds play against Man City on Saturday and they, they were probably the better team at least in the. In the second Half I guess we'll see. I, I don't think Chelsea are as far along as maybe Jack seems to. I think they're a team that I think they could go really far in the Champions League actually but not, I don't think they're going to be in the title running, you know, in the last seven, eight, nine games of the season. I think they're a team that are probably going to fall away around kind of February, March time. I still think they're short in gold. I still think they're short of a center forward of like real, real top class quality and I still think they have these kind of moments of. I like we call them like immaturity developing team. Yes it is the younger squad but like the moments of immaturity we've seen or the moments that have cost Chelsea have been a red card by Sanchez at Man United. 28 year old goalkeeper. He's not a young player. He's played a lot of Premier League football. Chaliba's played a lot of Premier League football. He got sent off again. So he was at Brighton and then Caicedo obviously is I now established as one of the best players in the world. We're not talking about like 19 year olds who haven't played Premier League football before and I think also we're sometimes because Chelsea was such a basket case for the first sort of 18 months of this ownership and there was always change and flux and huge spending and long contracts. I think we sometimes go a bit soft on them in terms of what we expect from them relative to what they've spent and relative to, you know, when I, when I look at the league at the moment everyone's a win away from second. It feels like at the moment or everyone's three games away from looking like they might challenge and I think Chelsea will be, I think they will finish somewhere between second and fifth. But I can't yet quite work out. I'm not as confident as Jack that they are like the second best team. I still think kind of Liverpool at their best should be a better team than Chelsea and may yet overtake them. I still feel that same way about Man City so it'll be interesting to see sort of how they develop and whether they actually add in January as well. You know, can they add a center back in January that elevates them. I know Chaliba's had a good season. Fafana's come back now we've had so many injuries. I just wonder whether there's one or two pieces they could do in January. That just makes them. I don't know, it just makes me trust them a bit more.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay, well, Adam may not think it, but next let's delve a little more into Chelsea's title credentials.

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[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Sunday's draw with Arsenal makes it seven unbeaten for Chelsea in all competitions since losing at home to Sunderland. Now they've lost just once in 12, Jack winning nine of those games. Look, they are world champions, some might say. But have Chelsea surprised you this season in particular?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, I think they have surprised me. I think they surprised me quite a lot over, over 20, 25, really, because I wasn't that bullish about their prospects. I wasn't, you know, even going back to when Mauricio Pochino left and they got in, Enzo Maresca, I wasn't sure how that was going to go because I thought Pochino had them heading in the right direction. And then, you know, they make a change with somebody who's not, who's not managed in the Premier League before. But I think over basically the back end of last season when they finished fourth, won those two trophies, that you get a sense that actually maybe they are onto something. And this season, again, you know, they've obviously not been perfect. They' think they're a team which is fully mature. They've had a few, you know, there's some pretty bad days along the way, obviously, lost at home to Brighton, lost at home to Sunderland in the Premier League. Those are not games that, you know, the home, the home crowd would expect them to lose at all. And there's clearly a little bit of, well, there has been quite a lot of edginess. I think Maresque is still in the process of winning people over even in this his second season. But I just think, and maybe this is recency biased because I watched, you know, they had a pretty good week where they beat Barcelona and then got a point with Arsenal with 10 men. But I think I feel like the overall Trend is upwards. Just got to kind of maintain that.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah. Does it feel like a recency bias? I think enzober Eskar Adam is an interesting one because he's definitely coming for criticism in his style of play. But when you think about this jigsaw and try to put it together, I mean, it's not going to be easy for anyone, is it?

[Jack Pitt]

No. I spent a decent amount of time around Chelsea during his first summer because they were in the States. And I have to say, at that point, you genuinely. Because Chelsea sort of swept through managers so quickly. I mean, there were sort of serious pundits at the start of that campaign who thought he would be the first coach to be sacked. And I think for him to get to the stage he has, you know, almost 18 months in, I think is impressive. I still think, like, he's not like one of those coaches that's really stamped his personality over the league. Like, when you think of, like, the impact that, you know, Klopp had in his first 18 months, even though he wasn't really winning anything or something like that, I don't think he's someone that we really feel like we necessarily know. Yeah. And. And maybe actually, like, that has an impact in terms of how he's perceived fairly or. Or unfairly. And I don't think he had, you know, if you were to say, like, what is Mareska's style? He's a bit of a mixed bag, you know, like, there's times I watch them and I'm like, they're trying to be. Certainly last season there were times you sort of saw a lot of the sort of man, City, Guardiola sort of stuff. This season, I think they've looked a lot more like a mix between that and between, I guess, what we've become to know Chelsea for, which is a bit more physical, bit more competitive, kind of wide players, you know, powerful midfield, trying to have a kind of a number nine figure. So I think they're becoming a more developed team. I'm just not sure what he sees as, like, you know, if you were to envisage the. The future, perfect Maresca team, what that is. Exactly, yeah.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Do you think there's enough. Enough of an identity in this squad, Jack, to go on then and challenge for the Premier League? Because that's a really good point. You know, they've avoided defeat to Arsenal for sure, and they're, what, within six points of the leaders right now. But in terms of we don't know what Chelsea we might get week in, week out, do you think there's enough embedded in this team to really carry it through.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, I don't. I think the identity is pretty clear. I think the identity is actually not the identity that people thought they'd play with. When he got the job, the assumption was, oh, this guy, you know, he's obviously come through cfg, he's a big fan of Guardio. And I think the assumption was it would just be like more kind of pet bull, for want of a better phrase, like incredibly rigid, Very, very big on possession, positional game. And it's not really turned into that. Like, I think they're actually very dynamic. They're very, very physical. And that's what I meant when I said earlier that, you know, they kind of look like a Chelsea team now. They play with some of that Chelsea, that kind of physical aggression that Chelsea fans will expect from the side. So I do think the identity is in place. I think the issues are, well, a quality and depth. Is Robert Sanchez good enough to play for a team who wins the league, for example, Even kind of up front like yesterday, they started with Xiao Pedro, I think, then Dilap came on. I'm not sure. Is there necessarily a 25, 30 goal a season guy in there? I don't know. Maybe that's another area they'll have to look at. And then consistency, the bar is so high now for winning the league. I think that generally teams who were slightly different with Liverpool actually last season, but in the main, in the last 10 years, whether it's, you know, Guardiola or Klopp, like, you kind of need to get up into the 90s of points to win the title. And that means you need an incredible, not just intensity, but consistency too, and the ability to not lose the games like they've lost this season at home to Brighton, at home to Sunderland, those sorts of games. So I don't think they're all there. I think they've still got probably at least another year of developing and growing to do. But I do think that the identity is fairly clear now.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, this summer marks what, nine years since Chelsea's last Premier League title? And I'll come to you on this First, Adam, is it acceptable considering the standards that, that they've set over the last 20 years? In fairness, the league has changed over the last 20 years, I will say that. But at the same time, this is a team that financially wants to be operating as one of the top clubs in Europe.

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah, but you don't need to win the league to be financially operating as a top club in Europe. When was the last time Arsenal won the league? Ao.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, it's been a while. We know that. What, 20 odd years or so?

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah, yeah. When was the last time Man United won the league? I mean, it's.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, good point.

[Jack Pitt]

Unless you're Man City or Liverpool or Leicester, you're not winning the league in the past decade. And you know, that's. Is it acceptable? I mean, like, acceptable to who? You know, like maybe a spoiled Chelsea fan who's grown up from like 2004 till 2017 and says we are entitled and we must win this league and if we don't, then everything is a catastrophic failure. Then okay, it's not acceptable. But like, I don't get the sense this is an ownership that is like, like judging Maresca on whether he won the league last season or Pochettino the year before or Graham Potter before that, or Tuchel or whichever coaches they've had in the meantime. Lampard. So I don't think it's a club that's been placed to win a league over the past few years. And then if you add into that the kind of chaos of the kind of end of Abramovic and being put up for auction, I mean, they have won a Champions League in that time, albeit City, probably with a better team that season, you would say. But Chelsea obviously does deserve to win on the night. So acceptable, unacceptable. I, I guess all that really matters if you want to be like one of these top clubs anymore, is being in the Champions League. And I think what's been unacceptable for Chelsea over the past couple of years has been not being close to at times being qualified for the Champions League and having these like years out. You know, I think success now and people won't necessarily, like, this is. Judge more on like, how often are you qualifying for the Champions League and getting to the final quarterfinals of Champions Leagues more than. Are you able to get 98 points in England.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, I mean, this is also a team that spent a lot of money, Jack, on loads and loads of players and we've talked about the churn of players. Why are they doing it then, if they don't want to win the Premier League?

[Adam Crafton]

Well, I'm sure they do want to win the Premier League. I'd be surprised they don't. It's just a question of like, strategy and timing and resources. I actually think that. I mean, look, there's been so much criticism for their transfer policy in the last few years, but ultimately people decide whether strategy is good or not based on whether the team is winning or losing. It's as simple as that. And the more games they win, the more people will go back and say, oh, actually maybe this transfer strategy that we thought was dumb was actually smart. That's basically how it works. Like I said earlier, I think that for example, paying 100 plus million for Fernandez and Caicedo has been vindicated. I also think the kind you could even argue that the high volume signing of talented young players has probably paid off as well. Right. Because if doing that amount allows you to find Cole Palmer, find Esteval, then I think people will look pretty kindly on it and say, well, you know, if, even if not every single one comes off, if enough of them come off, then we've got a competitive team. So in that sense, I think that like the public perception of their transfer business will probably change the better that the team does. And I think that that's probably only natural.

[Jack Pitt]

Sometimes all of Chelsea's transfer business gets grouped into like one category. It's just chaos. And I think we have to remember like, there's been very different phases to this Chelsea ownership. You know, there was that initial first summer where like Todd Bowley becomes interim sporting director and that, that was chaos. You know, like that was the summer they signed Raheem Sterling. And is he still at Chelsea? He's still there.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

He's still at Chelsea. Yeah, he's still there.

[Adam Crafton]

He hasn't played a game since the end of last season with Arsenal.

[Jack Pitt]

Right. And you know, he's still on what like something like over 250, 300,000 thousand pounds a week. Like that summer was chaos, you know, the kind of getting all Bamiang, I think that summer. So I think that perception of chaos was fair as too was, you know, you go and get Graham potter for like 15, 20 million quid and sell sack him a few months later. You know, you could argue now right decision to get rid of him, but like that was not a good sign. I think some of the stuff where they maybe deserve more credit is having gone from that. They then went very much more aggressively and I think this was pushed more by the clear Lake side of it, to be fair, into building this structure, you know, and getting like, at the time it was like a joke that they have like five different sporting directors and heads of scouting and recruitment etc. But that seems to have made sense now. You know, you've got a structure that, that is able to kind of be bigger than the head coach that recruits in that recruits for kind of the broader group. So I do think there is a praise for that, you know, there's still been some really big, big mess ups along. You know, Mudrick, when you look back, that is a heck of a lot of money that I don't think they're ever likely to get back now. And I still think there's some question marks about, you know, even some of the signings they made last summer. You know, we're yet to really see Garnacho da Lap come through. But I think their view probably on those players is, you know, you signed Liam dalap for like 30, 30 million. If it works out great. If not, Everton probably needs center forward next summer. They'll take him for 25 million. You know, Garnacho will probably get a move to atletico Madrid for 35 million. So I think their view on some of these young players is they'd love it for that to work out for them at Chelsea. But if not, there is like basically a minimum value that's almost protected. And you know, someone like Madueke I think is a probably best example of this. You know, they get him in, he does okay at Chelsea, like not much more than that. And then they're able to set to sell him on and get Esteban point like that is the Chelsea model working really, really well and efficiently. And then you also have these like big ticket signings which they probably view as stars of the decade, I guess, which would be players like Caicedo Fernandez. Maybe Fafana was meant like that as well. Kukurea, that was sort of during the chaos period, but it's turned out okay.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

But it's paying dividends now though, hasn't it?

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah, he's still in my country, but yeah, still he still makes me like very nervous when I watch him play defensively, it might be unf. So I do think like you have to divide up the different periods of this Chelsea ownership and also praise them for the fact it's improved over time.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. But also when a team has a new style or a new leadership, Jack, perhaps we as fans need to sort of rethink how we are looking at what identity looks like. Right? Like Manchester United, if they're going to go into their new era now, they will have to rejig their identity as a club. It can't be what we expected Manchester United to be all these years ago. Very similar to Chelsea.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, completely. And it's also, you've got to remember the fact that in a sense the club kind of starts again from scratch when they were after the, the Bowley Clear Lake acquisition. You know, they went through such a unique thing, firstly with the kind of, you know, with the Abramovich success, but also the unique circumstances under which he had to sell the club. And so we're only what, three and a half years, I think, into this new era. There's been a huge amount of learning on the job for everyone. Some people in the ownership group had sports experience before, like Bowles. LA Dodgers are hugely successful, but neither of them had owned a football club before. And then they appointed sporting directors who hadn't been sporting directors before. They were really kind of building from scratch in that sense. And then as Adam said, they churned through managers pretty briskly and they've had to try and find their feet and they've had to come up with a new approach to the football market which is obviously very different from the transfer markets in American sports. And so it's all been. And at the same time you're competing with clubs like, you know, like the Manchester City ownership have been in place at City since 2008 and Pep Guardiola has been at City since 2016 and he's been working with, I mean he's been working with Soriano who'd been there longer for him. Obviously Brigistan's now left but joined with Soriano before Guardiola got there. So there was so much at City, for example, there's so much kind of expertise and know how and they had a really good way of working which delivered them a lot of success along with some other things along the way. Or even at Liverpool. FSG bought out Hicks and Gillette in what, 2011 I think, and then Klopp joined in 2015 and so they had their own nine year period of stability. And so for Chelsea it's been very hard from a standing start to kind of try and close the gap with teams who not only had brilliant people in those positions, but also a really clear structure and a thing that worked for them. So I think been like, they've really been racing. It's time to compete with that.

[Jack Pitt]

I think Jack's right. And also I, I guess the counter is, you know, Chelsea have still had to balance the book with some creative measures at times. You know, stuff like the hotel sales and stuff like that. But I think the other thing that people forget is now everyone's like, oh, Liverpool's owners, Liverpool's owners are the best owners first of all, like they still don't get everything right as we've seen this past few months. And also people forget like the first couple of years of the FSG ownership at Liverpool where, you know, you remember like Brendan Rodgers and the transfer committee and some of the signings that were made during that time was. Was that like the Markovich Balotelli kind of period? I think that took time, you know, to really come into effect for those signings to get right. You know, you look at the difficulties that Ineos have had at Manchester United, but also I guess the really early points of like the Man City ownership were really chaotic. Let's go and try and sign Kaka. There was elements of kind of the Gary Cook time as chief executive that were very chaotic as well. Although City obviously got to where they wanted to get very fast. I think the only ones that have worked as intended from the start were kind of the Newcastle owners for all the criticism they've had. But then they've also had a really poor summer over the past year where they were kind of without executives for a period of time. What I'm saying is I think we as media at times, you know, like there's nothing we love more than being, you know, the people outside the sphere who never have to do these jobs, you know, basically mocking people and saying they're terrible, they don't know what they're doing, etc, And I think the reality is, even for those who have vast experience in it or are learning on it, like this is clearly a hugely chaotic industry where there's all sorts of challenges, you know, players asking to be paid a huge amount of money, agents, all sorts of intermediaries, like old tricks of the trade that you're not yet familiar with that make it a really challenging environment.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Okay, well, let's move on because we've spoken about Chelsea and I'm sure we'll cover them again in the next few weeks. But now let's discuss some of the other big talking points from the weekend's action.

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[Jack Pitt]

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[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolera.

[Adam Crafton]

And he finds the finish.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, Jeff, let's talk about Manchester City who we've already mentioned, who have now moved what within five points of Arsenal after Phil Foden's inspired goal over Leeds last minute goal. Somehow this team are still keeping on Arsenal's shoulders, aren't they?

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, they're doing, they're doing better than I thought they would. They've got, you know, they've obviously moved in a very different direction this season. New style of play, quite a lot of new players. The, you know, Harland has been amazing. Doku has been at times very good. Foden was the star on Saturday. I think ultimately Arsenal are probably more complete than City at the moment. I think that they, I think they probably have more depth than City as well. There's still a little bit of vulnerability that City have in the middle of the pitch, particularly against kind of high energy opposition midfields. But yeah, I think City are good and I think Foden is clearly like. Looks like he's getting closer back to his best.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know, it's really interesting watching Foden shine at this moment in time. And I'm thinking with your England hat on, Thomas Tuchel looking for who will include in that squad. There's a. There's a plethora of decent midfield talent and also attacking talent at his disposal.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah, Foden, I think Foden is. Are really. In the recent months, the England coverage has been so much about Jude Bellingham. Like everything's been about Bellinger. Where does he fit, how's he going to play, what's his best position, all this stuff. But I actually think Foden is probably like as interesting like Foden. You know, Foden has. Is pretty experienced international level now, you know, like Bellingham, his first tournament was Euro Euro 2020, held in 2021. I think unlike. I think Bellingham probably has like more big moments for England along the way. Like Foden's never really clicked in an England shirt, but Tuchel's definitely really committed to trying to get the best out of fans. And perhaps one of the more interesting things that Tuchel said to us recently is that he's not going to do what Southgate did and just push Foden out onto the wing. He wants Foden in the middle of the pitch. He says if he plays it'll either be as a 10 or perhaps even as a false 9. And he did play there a little bit Freeman during the last international break. So he's obviously not a like for, like replacement for Harry Kane. But I do think that basically what Thomas Tuchel wants is to get Foden into those. Those pockets, those positions on the edge of the box, get him into shooting positions because he knows how dangerous he can be. So, you know, every goal that Foton scores for City is probably good news for England too.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Well, Adam, let's talk about Liverpool. They won against West Ham. Mo Salah was kept on the bench, a sign of things to come.

[Jack Pitt]

Maybe it'd be brave to carry on not playing. Mo Salah helps when you play West Ham. I think we'll just have to see with Liverpool, you know, they've had good results over the past few months. At times. They beat Real Madrid, they beat Aston Villa. Their problem has been consistency. And every time you think they might be getting to where they need to be, they kind of go two steps backwards again, I have to say, like City, I said earlier, I watched on Saturday, I thought they were really bad, really bad in the second half, like really, really lucky to come out of that. Even in the last 15 minutes of the game. Leeds looks more likely to win the game at times than City did, having been 2 nil down. So I'm kind of curious to see how City do over the next month. I think they've got a pretty kind fixture list actually in December, which obviously helps them, but. But I don't know, they're a strange team. Like they've turned up in some of the really big games this season, but then you're not surprised at all when they go to like an upwardly mobile team like Newcastle, a Villa, a Brighton, you know, I think they've got. If they've got Palace, Fulham, teams like that over the next few weeks and I would expect them to come up unstuck in games like that.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

Talking offstrate teams, Jack spurs losing at home. Home again, this time against Fulham. I mean, how tense is it getting for Thomas Frank right now?

[Adam Crafton]

Pretty bad. I mean, they were 2 nil down after 6 minutes on. On Saturday night and they now have the second worst home record in the league. Only Wolves are worse. And this is not just a Thomas Frank problem. This goes back a long time. I think they've taken, I think it's 17 points their last 22 home league games, which is just bizarre. The football is quite bad. The league position is okay for now, but I think it feels like it's going to get worse before rather than getting better. The fans are obviously pretty anxious about this, as you would be. The vibes at the moment at Tottenham are pointing downwards.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

All right, Adam, let's do it. Before we go, the final whistle give you an opportunity to tell us about what's on your mind from the world of football this week in 60 seconds. Are you ready?

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

All right, off you go.

[Jack Pitt]

I think I was thinking about Aston Villa, actually. I was thinking about Unai Emery and you know, the way they started the season, I think no wins in their first five and it almost, you know, with the summer they had, I think their transfer business was right. You're kind of a bit worried about them. And now all of a sudden it's like seven wins and eight. They've done it with Ollie Watkins scoring one goal all season, which is sort of hard to believe. And I think they're Only on around 15, 16 goals scored in the whole league anyway. And I'm just not sure yet, you know, if they are. I know they've climbed up the table really fast and not Quite sure yet. Yet if they are back, per se, this month, they're going to play Arsenal twice. They're going to play Man United, they're going to play Chelsea. And I'm just really curious because I think Villa are one of those teams that, you know, could really start solidifying this in the top four, top five, but I'm just not quite sure yet how good they are. So that's. That's what's on my mind today. I don't know what do you. Jack, are they. Are they any good? Are they, like, good enough to finish above Chelsea? Chelsea. Given how good you think Chelsea are.

[Adam Crafton]

I'd be surprised if they finished above Chelsea. But I am also, like, presently surprised by how good Villa have been since that start of the season. I mean, after. After, I don't know, like a month or so of the season, there was such a big narrative out there that, you know, this is finished. The whole Emery project is over. Didn't we all have fun? But it was. And it was nice, really nice. They had a go, but they scored.

[Jack Pitt]

One goal in their first five games.

[Adam Crafton]

Yeah. And like. But there was such a. Certainly from the outside, I'm sure Villa fans would. Would have disagreed with this. But certainly from the outside, the perception, they had a good go, didn't they? But it's all over now. And in fact, you know, they've done really well, like, since then. They've just improved and improved and improved. And I think that really says a lot about having a high quality, experienced manager who, you know, even though the recruitment's been bit inconsistent in places like the players, they've got a core of players who do really obviously believe in the manager and a fan base who believes in the manager, too. And so everyone's. It's one of those situations where sometimes as a football club, you can, you know, you can get a bit too upset by a bad month and then everybody kind of loses it a bit. But in this case, it seems like they've actually managed to steer the ship through to calmer waters.

[Jack Pitt]

Yeah. To the extent where you think, like, Villa. What, Villa, Arsenal, next weekend feels like, that'll probably be Arsenal's hardest game over the next month or so, you would think. Big test.

[Podcast Host Ayo Akimwalere]

All right, Adam, thanks for that. And also, Jack, thanks for joining us as well. And also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabreau and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Avi Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows. Search for the athletic on all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.

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