Ayo Akimilere (6:25)

Yeah, Liam, I'm going to give you a moment to talk in just a second. But just quickly on Le Classique. Tom, there might be a lot of people listening to this who don't watch Ligue 1 and don't understand what this rivalry is between PSG and Marseille. There's a lot to do with European trophies, isn't there? And losing La Classique is a big one in French football for either one of those teams.

Tom Williams (6:48)

Yeah. And you know, Marseille's record in that game since the takeover by Casa Sports Investments at PSG in 2011 has been pretty wretched. You know, they're used to losing games against psg. Last season, you had the additional trauma of PSG winning the Champions League at long last. You know, Masse having won it, albeit in, you know, slightly controversial circumstances in 1993. Match fixing allegations, we won't go into detail about that. And that was celebrated. And it wasn't, you know, that the fact that they were the only French club to have won the Champions League was something they really enjoyed rubbing in PSG's faces. They've lost that status, which was a real blow to them. I know former Masse players who used to meet up every year they. To watch PSG getting knocked out of the Champions League, or at least make sure that they were with other, you know, OM sympathizers when that happened, so that they could enjoy it. So that was a bitter pill to swallow. This season, it looked like OM were getting closer. There was talk of OM challenging for the title. They beat PSG back in September for the first time in ages. Certainly their first time in front of their own supporters for absolutely ages. They came within a whisker of beating them in the Trophy des Champion, which is the French equivalent of the Community Shield in Kuwait in January. Two on up, going into stoppage time, PSG score this absurd comic book equalizer in the 95th minute and then went on penalties. But there was a sense that OM were closing the gap. And then they go to the part des Princes. They've just had their pants pulled down in the Champions League and they get humiliated. And that is the kind of result that is almost impossible for any Marseille coach to survive.

Ayo Akimilere (8:28)

Yeah, let's talk about the former Marseille coach, De Zerbi. Liam. Look, some might say volatile, some might say passionate. Were you surprised at how spectacularly his time at Marseille ended?

Liam Tharm (8:42)

I think it was always going to be fireworks and disasters. Right. This is kind of what Marseille is as a club. This is Roberto de Zerbi as a coach. I think kind of the adjectives you list off there, the sides are the same coin. Right. I don't think you get one without the other. You probably don't get the. The enigmatic kind of passionate coach that he is and that there's probably coaches out there who are better man managers. But I think clubs, increasingly, when they bring him in, know that they're kind of compromising a bit on someone that might be top at knowing when to put an arm around the shoulder or kick up the backside, but saying, well, he's going to coach an attack like you've never seen before. And one of the best attacks in the league that teams are willing to kind of. Yeah, wouldn't take a chance on that. Things happened kind of in a similar way at Brighton, the way that kind of Leandro Trossard left the club. He had a bit of a falling out with the hierarchy. I think maybe he's a bit fortunate that both clubs in Brighton and Marseille said kind of announced it publicly anyways, kind of by mutual consent. I'm not always sure how mutual that is. I always think that maybe is a bit nice to the coaches involved. But this is really, I think, the story of deserving increasingly as a coach, that the highs are really, really high. That kind of. Tom has spoken about there. You look at the number of Goals they scored last season as well. The most goals they had in a Ligue 1 season since 2018, 19. So just phenomenal in terms of what he can do and what he can do very quickly as well. He tends to have this real kind of shock factor, I think this impact quickly at clubs, teams and players seem to get his tactics quickly and I think it really catches opposition teams out. Maybe that's got a negative where teams then figure it out kind of equally as quickly and it doesn't last for too long. But yeah, the manner in which they went out the Champions League was particularly bad. I mean, it's kind of. I think it's classic, the bad side of the Zerbi, that they basically went into the final two match days knowing they were almost guaranteed to qualify. I think the Optor Ord had them at something like 98%, which from kind of a modeling perspective, these things will never be 100%. So that's about as good as you're going to get. And they basically needed to not lose 3, 0 both times, which they then did. I mean, they were basically outplayed by a Liverpool team that aren't in great form in the Premier League this season at home. And then to be 2 nil down so early on in the final round in Bruges, I think was particularly poor. So it's an era of real high highs, but I think real low lows. And I think the lows come out of those fitting a lot worse than the highs do.

Ayo Akimilere (10:51)

Yeah, Tom, I couldn't help but see various clips of early Diserbi at Marseille. This really interesting football. We've come to see goals galore. I mean, the players seem to click really well and they seem to understand it, almost catching teams off guard a bit like Liam has just said. And then was the case that people just sort of saw chinks in that armor and then exploited it. Therefore, we see the sort of downfall of Marseille in Ligue 1.

Tom Williams (11:17)

I think part of it is to do with the huge turnover of players. It was very difficult for De Zerbi to create any sense of stability on the pitch because, you know, players who he was very dependent on would abruptly lose their status. And there's been a real policy under Pablo Longoria, I would say, of selling players as soon as a decent offer for them was received, almost regardless of their importance. I mean, the Habio case was peculiar. He was a real coup for Marseille. You know, he came from Juventus, he's a France international, he's one of the best midfielders around. He'd come through the ranks at psg, so that was pretty sweet for the supporters as well. And the decision was taken that, you know, this fight with, with Jonathan Rowe was, was so out of order that, you know, there was no way he could continue to play for the club. And there's a degree of murkiness around exactly what happened. No one can test that there was a physical confrontation, but, you know, there was a suggestion that, that maybe the extent of it was amplified because it made it easier to, you know, to get him off the books. And you know, players come in, play a couple of games and look like they're about to become nailed on starters. And obviously the concept of the nailed on starter is, you know, is not what it was 10, 15 years ago, but look like they're about to become really important players. And the next thing you realize they've not played a single minute for five weeks and then the next transfer window that they're off and they're out. On top of that, the Zerbi is a coach who likes to change things. There was a statistic that they had played 33 different matches this season in all competitions and he'd aligned a different starting 11 in every, every one of those 33 games. Not just start, not just changing between matches, but picking a brand new starting 11 that had never been aligned before in every single match. And it's just very hard for a team to get any sense of coherence when you've got a coach who's doing that. So, you know, some of it was to do with the fact that you've got this, this constant churn of players, but it's also to do with the fact that you've got a coach who is, you know, who is, who is willfully, you know, making changes all the time. And you know, as Liam said, when it, when it clicked, it was spectacular. They were fantastic to watch last season. They have occasionally been great to watch this season. But the way they lost a PSG was so naive. You got the sense that having, having beaten them previously in the league, having come so close to beating them in the trophy, the champion, that they almost thought they'd figured PSG out and they just attacked that game in such a naive way and it just kind of felt like, you know, they were, they were asking for trouble and yeah, trouble, trouble is, is what they ended up getting.

Ayo Akimilere (14:02)

Yeah. I wonder what the repercussions of this will be. Liam, for the rest of Marseille season, you know, how big an impact do you think it will be that Deserbi is left, but also, you know, we've seen players come out and shared that they're quite unhappy about his departure.

Liam Tharm (14:15)

Marseille are a very hard club to speculate about for the reasons that Thomas basically explained that you never quite know what's. What's coming next. You know something's coming, but you never quite know what's coming next. And if you look through their. Their recent seasons where they finish in Ligue 1, since 2018-19, they've gone fifth, second, fifth again, second again, third, eighth, second and a fourth right now. So this is a team that have constantly, I think, had a good squad with a good coach at a point in time, not managed to continue that, not managed to keep a team together. So they've been on a real rollercoaster ride for the past few years, which has been, I think, quite ironic, as obviously, Tom points out, with PSG having such. Such success and such dominance. Ligue 1 is always a league where there's opportunity to succeed. We've seen that with various teams in recent seasons. I mean, we can mentioned kind of briefly Lance, who are currently top of Ligue 1 that are absolutely flying under Pierre Sarge, who was at Lyon previously, his boyhood club, and kind of saved them from financial trouble, who are again, playing quite a specific style, playing a very, kind of clear identity. Back three, back five, a very defensive team, the kind of team really, that caused a deserving team so many problems. But again, we've seen Nice had a really good half season under Farioli a few years ago. There's just not that dominance that you get in perhaps the Premier League or other leagues, where as long as you've got a good young squad, and because this is such a selling league, it's hard. You keep that team together, you've got talent, you can genuinely kind of compete and be up there. And I really think kind of the window of opportunity felt like it was there for Marseille and it made sense for De Zerbi as a coach. What they pivot to and where they go next, I don't know, because as you kind of say, there's. There's still a really good chunk of the season to go and the Liga 1 title race is. Is open. I mean, PSG went above Lance recently, then lost to Aren, and now Lons are back on top. So these things aren't kind of completely settled yet, and there's a long way to go.

Ayo Akimilere (16:03)

Yeah. Tom, very quickly, before we move on, Liam makes a really good point about, you know, Ligue 1 being a selling league fundamentally other than PSG, of course, you've got bags of riches, but when it comes to Marseille's financial health, we talk about players leaving, coming in. Where are they in that sort of spectrum? We've spoken about Leon on this podcast several times and what's going on there. But what about Marseille in general? Are they in a healthy position financially?

Tom Williams (16:27)

They're in a much healthier position than they were a few years ago in Frank McCourt, the owner, has been at the helm since 2016, and he put an awful lot of his own money into the club without any, you know, returns for quite a while. And that debts, you know, season after season were pretty colossal. And I think one of the reasons why they have found it so hard to refuse approaches for their players is that they need the money. Like all modern clubs, you're trying to strike that balance between getting a successful team out on the pitch, but making enough money to balance the books. And that is particularly difficult for French clubs at the moment because of the TV rights fiasco, the latest TV rights fiasco. You know, French clubs earnings from TV rights has just completely vanished, almost literally. You know, they. They were looking at. There was this talk that, you know, the clubs would be bringing in a 1,000, or rather a billion euro TV deal a few years ago, and now they've had to. The league has had to launch its own channel, Ligue Amplus, which is doing well in terms of subscription numbers, but there's very little visibility about how much money that's actually going to generate. And so, you know, French clubs have always had to do their best to resist clubs from other richer leagues picking off their most talented players. And that's becoming even more difficult because of that economic context. We saw that in the January transfer window, really talented young players. Kademite at Rennes, Siddiqui, Sherry for Angers. You know, talented teenage players being picked off as soon as they've, you know, they've set foot in the starting 11 or even just got a few minutes and shown a bit of their talent. And we saw that also at Marseille. And because it's such a difficult club to play for, because the local environment is so volatile, it is notoriously difficult for young players to make the grade. At Marseille, you know, you draw up a list of their greatest ever players, there will literally be about two or three players on that list who've come through the youth system. I mean, Sami Nasri was one, Boubacar Kamahana of Aston Villa was another one more recently, you know, there are vanishingly few examples of that. And they had two really talented young players come through the ranks in recent years, Robinho Vaz, center forward, and Daryl Bacola, kind of a number 10, a playmaker. They were both sold in January. It's just very difficult for French clubs, even big clubs like Marseille, to turn down that sort of money. But one consequence of that and those kind of deals is that, you know, the debt season on season, are not what they were in the early years of the Frank McCourt era. And one of the things you hear is that he is he is more satisfied with the way the club's finances currently look. So as much as it's perhaps made it difficult for Marseille to achieve coherence on the pitch, in financial terms, it is actually a strategy that has that has achieved results.

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Ayo Akimilere (22:28)

Let's keep talking. Desert me. Stick your Brighton hat on again. Because look, I think one thing we came to enjoy in the Premier League was his tactical influence, you know, and something you've spoken about is that obviously he starts so positively and then maybe he gets found out along the way. Could this be a problem for him just in general everywhere he goes in the fact that there's a moment where you've got a coach or a manager who's who gets that instant buy in but not necessarily the longevity because I'm thinking about if he ends up going for bigger jobs like Manchester City for instance. You want to see a level of sustainability over a long period of time.

Liam Tharm (23:08)

I think so I think part of the charm and part of the romance with him currently is is that kind of fear. Right. And the, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't promise that and I think increasingly as coaches or there's clubs so that are looking for coaches that operate in that way. I think the tenure these days of head coaches is so short that kind of generally speaking if you're going to get a season, two seasons, you do well to be getting longer than that. He doesn't really play risk averse football. I think you watch kind of the goals that his team score and it's a phenomenal kind of highlights here. I mean they're one of the best teams to kind of these vertical attacks they're going to press Mountain man most of the time. They're going to be super high up the pitch, you know, score some really fluid, really dynamic goals. Some of the best goals you'll see, you'll see all season. But at the same time, you look at the goals that, you know, they concede and the sheer volume of goals they concede as well. I think kind of in, in the past two seasons or past year and a half in liga. So since August 2024 when the Zerby came in and they got the second best attack after PSG, but they're eight for kind of the best defense or the fewest goals conceded. So this is a team that, you know, Summers, his bright inside were saying, okay, we're, you know, we're not bothered about keeping games tight. We're going to try and outscore you. Kind of very, very clear about that. And I do wonder if kind of that, you know, he gets kind of held up in a similar way because I think people like Pep Guardiola have spoken very fondly about him and I think there's a lot of appreciation in coaching circles for what he's able to do with his teams and the style that they play in and, you know, how they operate the rotations. They work with a lot of the passing patterns as well. And I think part of the reason why they have that success early on is because a lot of it is very pattern based, right? So if me, you and Tom suddenly got on the pitch and we say, okay, we're going to work a move where I pass this to me and I pass it in behind to Tom, you can probably get that across in a very short period of time. And once you execute on the pitch, it can work really well. But I think once teams start recognizing that, that's where the issues come in. And he's perhaps not quite as adaptable, but we've seen that with other coaches. Ange Postecoglou is obviously someone that has been talked about recently in a similar way for being quite dogmatic and very kind of attacking focused. So I'd be amazed if there weren't a number of kind of suitors for him, of clubs that look at him and find him a really, really attractive coach. But I'm not kind of convinced he's perhaps cut out yet for a top club because I think Guardiola or Arteta are a lot more kind of risk averse and they want kind of almost possession to be defensive sometimes. I mean, De Zerbi was a number 10 in his playing days. And I think his teams are kind of built around that and play like that.

James Horncastle (25:24)

Right.

Liam Tharm (25:24)

He wants that attack, he wants that dominance and that territory.

Ayo Akimilere (25:27)

How would his time at Marseille be remembered, you reckon? Tom, let's just wrap it up on Marseille now, because that first season, what was spectacular, I think they finished second, didn't they, under Deserbi?

Tom Williams (25:37)

Yeah. And you know, back in the Champions League, it was the first time they qualified automatically since 2022. And as we said before, Marseille is, is a club, sees itself as a Champions League club. And they won the competition in the first season of the modern Champions League era. And you know, in previous seasons when they have been in the Champions League, they've generally fared very poorly. So there was great excitement that, that you had this, you know, this, this very highly regarded, passionate coach who so clearly identified with the fan base and the local culture, playing this spectacular football, getting results and, you know, there was real optimism as to what he might be able to achieve in the Champions League. And his failure to achieve anything in the Champions League this season is ultimately what has cost him. But I think the fans in particular will remember him with, with great fondness because of the extent to which he identified with them specifically. Massey brought out a documentary on YouTube last summer. I think it was a six parter, slightly indulgent exercise, but there you go. And you know, there was footage in the changing room of De Zerbi's team talks and the way he spoke to his players and his, I mean, you know, his, his passion really shone through and it was notable how often he spoke about the supporters. You know, he'd be speaking to the players. It's like, you know, we're in the north of France today. Our fans have had to travel. They've had to get out of bed at 4:00 in the morning. You know, there are people who deny themselves holidays, deny themselves nice things because of their love for this club. I love this club that way. You guys need to love the club this way. And the supporters saw all that and that, you know, sort of helped with the Zerbies myth, I suppose. And you know, you look even at the way that OM announced his departure, they put out a video of one of his team talks and it was him kind of talking about that and the passion and what it means, you know, what, what Olympic de Marseille stands for. So that's something that I think endeared him to the supporters at the time and means that he'll always have a place in their hearts. The fact that he chose Marseille in the first place. There's that story about him, you know, showing his players the contract that Manchester United had offered him in some kind of, you know, impromptu.

Ayo Akimilere (27:57)

I chose you over Manchester United. That's brilliant.

Tom Williams (28:00)

There were great moments. I mean, qualifying automatically for the Champions League was huge. Yeah, they had some fantastic wins last season. There was this. There were two, three. Two wins over Lyon. Who are. Yeah. Who were their biggest rivals after psg, really? And the first one came via this absolutely brilliant Jonathan Rowe curler in stoppage time. So you did have these moments. And there were moments when it felt like everyone was pulling in the same direction. The team were playing great football. The coach's message was coming across, the stadium was full. The fans were behind the coach, the fans were behind the players. And it was just further evidence that when things are going well, Marseille is one of the best places in the world to play football and to watch football. And when things start going badly, it is the complete opposite. And, you know, here we are once again with the latest piece of evidence of that.

Ayo Akimilere (28:54)

Yeah, I mean, I've been to Marseille. I've enjoyed watching football there. It is sublime. And the fans, Liam, are just. Honestly, when you talk about passion for football, this is a very passionate fan base, but also can switch to volatile very quickly in the same breath. But, you know, DZB has brought great football to Marseille, took them back to the Champions League, Liam. I mean, it's not a bad stint, is it?

Liam Tharm (29:16)

It's not bad, but I don't think Marseille, as a club and as a fan base and as a set of ultras, kind of have room for. For not bad. I think the, you know, nothing matters besides the results or the results are the most important thing, which you do almost wonder a little bit if kind of with how the past few years have gone, you know, being quite up and down, not quite having that success or any kind of, like, material success, if they might kind of, you know, revise expectations a bit and say, actually, okay, this isn't where we are right now. Okay, Historically, we've. We've won titles, we're a dominant side, but we need to get back to kind of, you know, perhaps in a similar level. I think. I know Manchester United aren't a perfect comparison, but they feel like in a kind of a similar place to an extent. But I don't think Marseille ever kind of are willing to do that. It's absolute kind of set. I think in many ways, it's why De Zerbi made sense as a coach. To go there because he's equally kind of dogmatic. And I jokingly said to a friend, a colleague, Alex Barker, when he left Brighton, I said, that same day I went, I'll watch him go to Marseille, because it felt almost kind of so ludicrous that it was going to be this unstoppable force meets a movable object. It's guaranteed to be absolutely crazy. It's probably going to be really high octane, there's going to be goals everywhere, some for Marseille, some of, you know, it's just. It's just going to. Going to be really, really wild. So I think at least there's a bit of a thought experiment and from someone that's got a lot of tactical interest, I really enjoyed watching it because as Tom says, that they played some really interesting stuff, they switch between systems a bit and, you know, they're a really dominant team going forward. But I think there's an interesting case study within them to look at kind of how modern coaches approach kind of risk and their balance. Because I think deserving my view on it, I think I'm not always his biggest fan as a coach because he is so kind of gung ho. It's not kind of quite how I like football to be. And I wonder. I think it's always interesting if clubs now overcorrect where they go next. So if Marseille picks someone, kind of what Tottenham did when they went from angel boss to Thomas Frank, which obviously hasn't worked, but in a similar way, what Marseille do if they pick someone now that's a little bit more pragmatic, I don't think they will because you can't play defensive football at the Velo job. It's too loud and too big and grander stadium to do that. But yeah, where they go next will be fascinating.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimilere.

Ayo Akimilere (33:23)

Well, at the age of 46, Roberto De Zerbi has now had eight different clubs ranging from his homeland Italy to Ukraine, then England and also France as well. So where does Deserbe turned to next? Well, here's James Horncastle with some thoughts.

James Horncastle (33:38)

What next for Roberto de Zerbi? I mean, isn't this one of the most fascinating questions in football at the moment? I mean, de Zerbi certainly has some very high profile backers in the coaching community. I'm going to name a couple of them for you. I mean, one is Pep Guardiola, who may be leaving Man City in the summer. I mean, Pep has called de Zerbi one of the most influential coaches the last 20 years. Another is Luis Enrique. He's won a couple of trebles and he says, I don't understand why everyone criticizes this. Irby, I think if we scrutinize things, what do modern ownership groups and executive classes want from a coach? Well, the trend in 2026 would tell us that they don't want a coach that has a voice. They want a coach to just get on with the job and be a coach and nothing more. You are there to develop the players on the training ground, prepare the matches for the weekend and win football games and that's it. You can have a little bit of a say on recruitment, but ultimately our voice is the decisive voice when it comes to that. To conclude, he is very Reminiscent in some respects of Antonio Conte. And yet when we talk about the Zerbi and link him to big jobs, we don't have the same discussion that we have with Conte, which is, is he worth the hassle? The thing is, Conte wins things, win leagues. He'll set new points records. The knock on Roberto is that he doesn't win things. I think certainly what really hurt him, kind of gave him sleepless nights at Marseille was when they were 13 seconds away from winning, what, the French super cup against psg. PSG then equalised and then PSG win on penalties. I think that meant a lot to him because there was a trophy in play there. He hasn't won anything. That's what it comes down to. I think it's like, okay, are we prepared to hire someone who is as challenging as Antonio Conte, but doesn't have the track record of Antonio Context?

Ayo Akimilere (35:21)

Yeah. I mean, James makes some really interesting points, especially around the fact that clubs want someone who just gets the job done and wins trophies. Tom, he's very vocal, as we've seen at Marseille, as we've seen elsewhere. Will his tenure at Marseille impact his reputation moving forward?

Tom Williams (35:41)

I'm not sure it will, because it basically went exactly as everyone thought it would. You know, what is De Zerbi at Marseille going to look like? The football's going to be great. The fans are going to love it. They're going to have some great results. They're going to have some terrible results. Results. There are going to be outbursts in press conferences, there are going to be clashes with players. He will achieve things. He will fall short of achieving things. He may not win anything. He will leave quite suddenly. Everyone will be, you know, sort of taken aback by how quickly he has come to the end of his. His tenure. Everything that has happened since the Zerby joined Marseille has been entirely predictable. So I don't think we've learned that much about him. It's been interesting to see him in that context, you know, a bigger club than Brighton, you know, historically, with a much bigger fan base, a bigger stadium, but such a unique club. It's impossible to, you know, to compare Marseille to, you know, to Even to another French club, let alone another European club. I mean, I guess you get a similar kind of atmosphere, you know, at some clubs, you think of Napoli, you think of some of the big Turkish clubs, for example, but it is a. It is a very unique environment. We still haven't seen him at the helm of one of the leading Champions League contenders, and I think, as you know, as James said, has what he has achieved at Marseille been sufficient to convince the clubs who were looking at him prior to him going to om that, you know, that he is, he is ready for a club of that stature to take a punt on him? I'm not sure that it has. So I don't think it's really, I don't think it's necessarily damaged his reputation anyway. It's basically gone exactly as we thought it would, but at the same time it has simultaneously revealed all of his strengths but shown up all of his weaknesses. So yeah, I don't think it has drastically altered the way that people will look at him. Any big club looking at De Zerbi knows that it is a risk, it is a punt. I'd be surprised if he walked straight into, you know, one of the big, you know, one of the biggest jobs in, in European football. And then, yeah, I guess in terms of the Premier League, the fact that we're seeing this move towards much more direct football, you know, would that necessarily work in, in his favor? Perhaps not. So, yeah, I mean, you know, he will be picked up relatively soon. I would have thought he's too good a coach not to be, but I'm not sure he has given us any evidence that he is ready for one of the very top jobs.

Ayo Akimilere (38:11)

Yeah, I mean, I want to challenge James. I think the Zerbi has actually won a cup, Ukrainian Super cup in 2021 with Shaktar Donetsk. And look, I don't know where that ranks in European trophies, but he has won things, right, Liam? But the reality is you are judged by where you are, especially at this level with the bigger teams or in the bigger stages. We saw what's happened with the Champions League and how Marseille didn't perform that well. And that's the level you want to see a top coach really operate at, especially a top coach you want to take to a top team. Can we see him come back to the Premier League and challenge again? I mean, we know what he's done at Brighton, but can we see him come to a Premier League team, let's say at Liverpool for instance, let's say, and Arsenal, let's say in Manchester City. Based on what we've seen right now with the sample size, I think the.

Liam Tharm (38:58)

Challenge with two of those teams that you mentioned is obviously having kind of longer term coaches in place. I think you maybe look at Man United might be a fair example now if they're looking to kind of implement some of the especially might fit a Team that I think historically have been good at being kind of a quick attacking team. And look, the, the theory with a lot of his players that because it's so possession based and, and passing based and pattern based, that you give him kind of the best technicians, the best technical players, I. E. You look at that Manchester City squad as a great example with a Shirky, a Foden, you know, Shani Reiners, a Rodrigo. He should be phenomenal with that because he's got the best passing players to kind of execute that game with. A lot of what he had success with at Brighton, people were, you know, it looks, it doesn't maybe look quite as impressive now as it was because he has a midfield of Moises Alexis McAllister now who are, you know, some of the best players kind of in, in European world football. But they've become that, I think partly because of how much they thrived in that system and developed there. So it's the theory of give him the, you know, the really good players and that style is going to just be completely unplayable. I've still got some reservations about him dealing with the European season as well. You look at kind of his 20, 20, 23, 24 season at Brighton where they tried to play the Europa League as well and look, they were really good in the great in the group stage. Ended up kind of winning the group after not winning in the first two games. Scored a really great move actually to, to beat, to beat Marseille, funnily enough to win the group at the Amex. But it was kind of their, their round of 16 game, the first leg, they went to Roma, went to study Olympico and were just completely outplayed. He picked kind of three youngsters playing in behind the striker. The ball didn't stick and it was one of those games where kind of the naivety just looked completely contrast to a really experienced Roma team. And look, De Zerbi was learning himself then as a coach in European football. One of the things I really respect about him is that he was actually quite honest about that as Brighton coach, where he was saying, look, he's got to learn. The club has to learn. They'd never been in Europe. And he is a coach as well. But that was the kind of game where you go, okay, your style in being so volatile can kind of work. In a league season where you've got 38 games, you can, if you're going to win 14, 15 of those have say, seven or eight big losses. That's all right, you can balance out, but you have one big loss in the Champions League or the Europa League, you're out, you're done, you're gone. That's been the success of other coaches that you look around and say, okay, can you keep games a bit more tight, a bit more balanced? So it would be a really interesting test and I would be amazed if someone that kind of statue of a club, someone big, doesn't take a punt on him, because I think what he can do on the ball, there's, you know, in terms of his coaching and attack, there's not many that are as good as him. And that's why what, you know, James is saying about, you know, kind of Lucho Pep, that people that admire him, because those are the coaches that want to play football in that style, and they're always going to appreciate someone that can coach the game in a way that, you know, really fits kind of their, their ideals.

Ayo Akimilere (41:40)

A little tricky question, Tom. I mean, despite what's going on with Marco Carrick at Manchester United, could it be, could we see a desire to be coach a team like Man United? Because also, you know, we, we have seen Atmar said what he can do with a really decent attacking setup.

Tom Williams (41:56)

I mean, it would be fascinating, wouldn't it? I think the experience with, with Ruben Amarim will mean that United proceed with great caution when it comes to identifying their next coach. I think any sense of tactical dogmatism similar to what we saw from Amarim will probably have them, you know, running for the hills. I mean, De Zerbi is more flexible tactically than Amarim was. He doesn't only have one system, he doesn't only have one way of playing, even if there are certain elements that don't change all that much. But I think United will probably look for someone who can bring a bit more calm to the changing room. I think you look at the impact that Michael Carrick has had in that respect. Knowing what to say to the media, knowing how not to create waves, knowing to get the fans on side, you know, that the United job is one of those jobs. You compare it to the Real Madrid job. So much of it is managing outwards. Yes, you've got to, you know, you've got to get the team out performing, you've got to pick your tactics, you've got to win matches. But there's so much managing upwards, there's so much of a. Of a communication element to that job. I suspect that the decision makers at United and similar clubs will look at the Zerbi and think, yeah, there's an Upside. But there are downsides as well, and it's a risk that clubs like that might think they're not prepared to take. But, yeah, I mean, my sort of instinct is to want to focus on the positives. And some of what we did at Marseille was exceptional. And, you know, you go back to the Champions League campaign this, this, this season, they were unlucky. They were brilliant in their opening game away to Real Madrid. Lost to a couple of, you know, fairly soft penalties. They beat Ajax 4 nil. They should have won away to Sporting and lost. They should have won at home to Atalanta and lost. They beat Newcastle at home. They won away at Union St. Geoise and then, yeah, the last two games were terrible. And you get that with, with the Zerby that is just kind of. That is baked in. So, yeah, I think for a club like United, I think there's just too. There's just too much risk. But clubs like that will, will look at him, you know, will consider him because he is capable of doing things that are really exciting.

Ayo Akimilere (44:04)

Yeah, maybe not the Premier League, necessarily. Liam, you called Marseille. So in world football, where could you see him end up?

Liam Tharm (44:12)

I think somewhere back in Italy. Must, must really appeal to him. Right, to go back there now. Obviously had so much success with Sassuolo and you look at the. I think I'd probably put his success there and his successor, Brighton, probably above what he achieved with Marseille, just because of how short his tenants ended up being at Marseille. All things considered, that we've said with the club, I think if a job came up, you know, with one kind of one of the big historic teams, you think he'd kind of be all over that. I don't know if Kivu's now too settled at Inter, but Milan, Juventus, you think surely one of those would. Would really appeal to him. It's probably the, the kind of league for him as well as Tom was saying that the Premier League's moving in a bit of a different tactical direction. And I think that, yeah, it's a little bit different in terms of kind of the, the tactics there and the, the managerial approach. So I imagine he'd. He'd love the opportunity to go back.

Ayo Akimilere (44:56)

Okay, let's leave it there, gents. I really appreciate your time. Thoroughly enjoyed that chat. Tom, Liam, and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.

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