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- [00:00]
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- [02:12]
Jack Lang
The Athletic.
- [02:16]
Ayo Akemolere
For anyone that didn't know about him already, Endrick introduced himself with a winner against England at Wembley on Saturday.
- [02:30]
Jack Lang
Brazil.
- [02:34]
Ayo Akemolere
So how good is Brazil's next big thing? And where will he fit in at Real Madrid when he moves there this summer? I'm Ayo Akemolere. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. Here for this one we have the Athletics, Brazilian football writer Jack Lang, Nick Miller, who conducted Endrick's first ever interview with UK media, as well as our Spanish junior Editor Thomas Hill. Lopez Manchero. Right, Jack, let's go. Let's start with you. You were there on Saturday. What did it feel like? Endricky, as the Brazilian commentators like to call him, what was he like? The anticipation of him coming on the pitch.
- [03:17]
Nick Miller
Yeah, I think we need to set a standard first. Are we going to go for the full Endrick or are we going to. I think I'll just keep it Endrick for now. Yeah, I was there. There was some excitement. I mean, it was. I think these things are contextual. Right. If it had been a thrilling match and he'd come on, I don't think it would have been quite the same, but it was really drab as anything. So when he stepped off the bench, just walking over to the sideline, having taken his tracksuit off, there was like a kind of a palpable kind of ripple of anticipation. And I think that's kind of partly to do with his talent, partly to do with the fact that we hadn't seen him over here, his first game in Europe and it wasn't an amazing cameo in terms of doing loads of things, but obviously scored. The very nature of the game, the fact nothing else happened, made him the story, really. And so I was planning to write on something else. I was planning to write on Lucas Paqueta, but, you know, when a 17 year old Brazilian wonderkid scores a late goal at Wembley, you go with that.
- [04:18]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, nick, you know, fourth youngest Brazilian scorer of all time since R9, Ronaldo, obviously in 1994, youngest ever men's goal scorer in an international at Wembley. It's fair to say the anticipation for what could be for Endrick is really fascinating because even if you think about R9, who's really been there, that's really shone. I mean, we talk about Wagner, love, Adriano, Pato, of course, Fred J, Zeus Richarlison at this moment in time. But you feel like Brazil's calling for a proper number nine at this moment in time, don't you?
- [04:48]
Jack Lang
Yeah. And I mean, a couple of the one or two of the names you kind of mentioned in there, maybe Pato, someone like that, there's a sort of cautionary tale in there which I'm sure we'll kind of get to later on, where there are many, many examples of Brazilian wonderkids who everyone has assumed will be the next great thing and who have either, you know, some of them have gone on to have perfectly respectable careers without being the next Romario or Ronaldo or whatever, but some of them have just Sort of sunk without trace even. Even at this kind of stage of their career. So it does feel weird that he's still only 17 because he's. We've kind of aware of him for a couple of years and then you kind of remember. Well, that was because he was 15 when people certainly outside of Brazil started to hear about him on a personal level. And I think we can all agree this is the most important thing. Him scoring, signing for Real Madrid and scoring the other night makes me look slightly less ridiculous given that I wrote about him when he was 15 two years ago. Yeah.
- [05:49]
Ayo Akemolere
There was a sense of inevitability though, Jack, don't you think, of him coming on and scoring. We talk about this sort of messiah complex that we put on footballers. I remember his first game for Palmeiras. I think he scored a bundling first goal again and very similar to his first goal for Brazil. Sort of bundled it in again. But he seems to be there at the right time in these situations.
- [06:10]
Nick Miller
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll come on to his, his kind of skill set in a while, but yeah, it's. I think it's a nice, a nice introduction to kind of, you know, knock a ball into an empty net. There was already enough hype without him scoring an overhead kick or a back heel. You know, those, those moments will come. I think you' tempted to kind of impute inevitability after the fact, aren't you? He had, you know, previously made two sub appearances for Brazil in South America, but obviously there was talk in the lead up to how he, he could have gone to Chelsea. So there was already this kind of English football angle to it and obviously there is history between, between England and Brazil and very famous moments that we'll all, all cling to forever. And that was just another of them. He said afterwards, actually he referenced Bobby Charlton in his first. In his kind of post match interview, which, I mean, I. This is another factor of Endrick, which again, we'll talk about this kind of. There's a PR savviness to him and that. I mean that without wanting to be cruel or cynical. That did seem to me a bit of a stretch, that probably Charlton would be his first reference point, but again, someone who is clearly aware of his image in England already despite only having played, what, 90 minutes of football here?
- [07:24]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah. Did it mark this sort of, I guess, new era of Brazilian football under a new coach as well, do you think? That was a bit of a marker as to where we might see this.
- [07:33]
Nick Miller
Brazil team go yeah, yeah, to some degree, I think. I mean, Brazil, this is a whole other podcast, but Brazil have been a complete kind of dumpster fire of a team since the World Cup. It's been horrendous. And Dorival Jr. Isn't a, you know, a massively world renowned manager. Probably be able to walk down every street in Europe without anyone stopping to get his autograph. But shaping something new. Obviously there are a lot of players injured, so that helped with the feeling of renovation. And obviously in Endrick, you've got someone who is. Yeah, I think a lot of Brazilians have identified him from an early age as not just the next superstar in Europe, but someone who can lend a bit of conviction to the number nine shirt. Hopefully after, you know, you mentioned some of the names, I could mention many more that are worse than the ones you've said, like from the good. Luis Fabiano is probably the closest Brazil have come to a top line striker since Ronaldo. And then you've got, yeah, you've got a load of other players that some people won't even remember. So to have someone like that waiting in the wings, I think, yeah, he is a symbol of kind of renewed hope, I suppose. Yeah.
- [08:36]
Ayo Akemolere
Thomas, let's go over to you for the sort of, I guess the start of our conversations around him at Real Madrid. You know, there were stars there, Brazilian stars. Andrew Bellingham and Rodrigo Benicius as well, sort of. You could see there was a bit of a camaraderie. They're all congratulating him and all that kind of stuff. An exciting time for that young man are what he's looking to do in Europe. And this is obviously, as we mentioned, his first appearance in Europe as well.
- [09:00]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think Madrid fans are, are really excited to, to see him. Obviously there's the kind of unusual factor that many of them won't have seen him play full matches. I mean, you know, to, to my mind, I think most Madrid fans will have seen him through highlights, reels, clips on clips on Twitter. Obviously the other day, yeah, we had this moment of, I think the Madrid media kind of fixated on Bellingham playfully slapping Endrick after the game, which seems to be a good sign. Hopefully that's a sign of friendship rather than, rather than anything else. But yeah, there's this really exciting young core of players at Madrid as we know. Vinicius, Rodrygo, Bellingham, now Endrick. I guess the thing is that there's been so much excitement about Kylian Mbappe's expected arrival that Endrick's kind of taken a sort of backseat almost since the deal was announced in December 2022. And the only question is how you get the best out of all of those young players. Carlo Ancelotti's been trusted with that with a contract until 2026. But yeah, seems hard to think that all these players are going to fit into the same team. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO akamwalere.
- [10:09]
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- [11:43]
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- [12:13]
Nick Miller
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Ayo Akemolere
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- [12:22]
Nick Miller
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- [12:23]
Ayo Akemolere
Or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply I want to just take this opportunity to. Just to break him down as a player because Jack, Nick, I know you, you've interviewed him and you've seen him play. I always have this sort of look on Brazilian football just because I used to spend some time out there and Flamengo were my team actually, because I used to live out there as well in Rio. And they played Palmeiras, played flamenco, I think in the super Copper, I think it was last year. And I remember watching him versus David Louise. Well, a very aged David Luis. But he, his hustle's really interesting. Like the way he comes at players, the way he constantly attacks defenders, the way constantly attacks goalkeepers, just unnerves them. You could just see that in that super cop. I don't know if he scored in that match, but fundamentally, how do we break down his game? And what, how special is this young lad? Because as we've said before, Brazil aren't akin, you know, they're not shy of some stars coming out of that country.
- [13:23]
Nick Miller
Yeah, I mean, explosive is the word that comes to mind. I mean, he's compared to, you know, Vinicius, Rodrigo Neymar, they are kind of one category of player, I think, kind of live light on their feet. Endrick, he is fast, but I don't think, you know, he's not someone who's gonna necessarily outstrip defenders over long distances. But he is really quick off the mark. He's kind of got this stockiness to him, accentuated by the fact he tucks his shirt into his shorts, like really old school style. But he's kind of, he's muscly, he's kind of chunky. It's hard to find a direct comparison, I think, in, in Brazilian football. As far as I can see, he's kind of. He's skillful, but not someone who will necessarily bring out tricks all the time. He can be quite direct. He's very powerful, sh on him, but often kind of unleashes a shot quickly. I was thinking about this earlier and the closest that I can think of is someone like Sergio Aguero, kind of low in stature, that just ability to conjure something from nothing in a very powerful way. But it'll be interesting to see how he develops. Like he has played out wide for Palmeira sometimes don't think it suits him a great deal. I think he is going to hopefully be a, you know, an out and out striker. But yeah, that's. Those are the kind of things that I've picked up so far.
- [14:45]
Intercom Voice
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- [14:45]
Jack Lang
One of the interesting things that I found when I interviewed him and that again, this was a couple of years ago, was that when I sort of asked him to describe his game, he. I think the first thing he sort of emphasized was his work rate. He didn't kind of talk about his skill or finishing or anything like that, which was, you know, his kind of, as Jack said, is obvious for anyone who's watched him. But he wanted to really emphasize his work rate and the kind of more unglamorous side of being kind of a Brazilian striker. And as we've kind of mentioned, as I think Jack has mentioned earlier on, there is a strong element of PR to him and he's obviously being advised quite carefully about everything he said. And you kind of did wonder how much of that his kind of advisors had a word with him before and said, okay, you want to emphasize that you're a team player here or whether that's just his kind of natural character that he just naturally said, well, you know, these are my skill sets. I'm not as kind of particularly flashy or player like that. He wanted to emphasize the kind of, the basics, I suppose, of his game.
- [15:56]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think Madrid clearly saw him as a, he's clearly been a Juni Caliphate led signing. That's Madrid's chief scout, you know, who's Spanish, Brazilian, who's, who's played a key part, a key role in these signings like Rodrigo, like Vinicius Junior. I think he's seen as another one off the, off the conveyor belt in, in that sense and hopefully more in that mold, rather than Rainier, the Brazilian midfielder who they signed and who's been on three separate loan spells out and hasn't made a senior appearance for Madrid. But clearly, I guess Hendrick offers something that they don't see in the European market, which is really interesting and it will be interesting to see how he fits in at Madrid.
- [16:34]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, just give us a breakdown, Thomas, of how that deal came about, especially as Real Madrid weren't able to sign him till a particular period as well.
- [16:43]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, I think it was a kind of sustained charm offensive. We know that Ancelotti, Ronaldo, Nazario, these figures played a key role in that and kind of managed to swing the balance. Even if I think Xavi did actually call him as he, as he said in an interview during the, during the World cup. As I say, he's, he's another one of these These South Americans, they've signed with to, to such success. And there was lots of buzz when he visited Madrid in, in December. This December just gone. Visited the Bernabeu. But this Tuesday against Spain, playing for Brazil will be a totally different, totally different thing. That will be the moment when we see him for the first time playing on the Bernabeu pitch. And I think a lot of Madrid fans will be really excited to see what he can offer.
- [17:29]
Jack Lang
Just going back to the PR element and how he was marketed. Just before I interviewed him, he went on a little mini tour of Europe. When he went to a couple of games, he went to, I think it was Barcelona against Napoli. And then as if to emphasize his age, the next game he went to, he went to PSG against Real Madrid. And the day after that he went to Euro Disney with his family, which.
- [17:55]
Ayo Akemolere
He'S still a kid, isn't he? Like you forget.
- [17:56]
Jack Lang
Yeah. Which is kind of. I mean, we did have. I was kind of off the chance to interview him when he was, when he was that young and we did have quite a lengthy conversation about whether we should talk to him. He technically still is a child. Is it really the right thing to do to interview a 15 year old about who at that point hadn't. I don't think he'd even signed a senior contract for Palmerish, nevermind played a senior game. I think he could only do that when he was 16. So in the end, obviously we decided to talk to him because he was clearly a great talent. I think he'd been on the COVID of Marker three times by that point. Which is, as Thomas will know better than the Madrid media, tends to go absolutely tonto whenever there is the faint whiff of a talented player possibly signing for Real Madrid. But yeah, at the time the sort of noises that they were making was that it would be a kind of. Don't think he's going to be agreeing a transfer anytime soon. We're going to take our time with this one. He's got to get some games for Palmerish first. But that kind of went out the window possibly as soon as the sort of figures that ended up being involved in the transfer started getting banded around.
- [19:16]
Nick Miller
It's worth saying this is very much now the. The Real Madrid playbook. Right. They kind of, we've written in the past how that they felt burnt by what happened with Neymar. Neymar's an interesting one because Neymar played, you know, 200 plus games for Santos, so they were able to secure him over a longer period. Through kind of creative accounting and kind of bent over backwards to keep him there for that long. And now we've seen in the case of like Vinicius, Rodrigo, he near, as Tom mentioned these, they all leave after generally 50 games. And it will be about that number for Endrick when he goes. You can question why that is. One is that the earlier you do it, you can't be usurped by other clubs. Right. So if you get the deal done when the guy is 16, you're not hanging around to wait to be overtaken at the last. But I think there's also a kind of pedagogical aspect to it. These big clubs now think that, that it's all very well having first team football in Brazil, but these guys, there's only a certain amount they can learn after 50 games. Because Brazilian football, it's got a lot of positive factors, but the quality isn't necessarily there. And so instead of waiting till they're 20, they bring them in early. They maybe give them a bit of time in the B team. You know, Vinicius played for Real Madrid, Castilla for a while, but they're getting the high quality training and input from that very early age. And they do that in house now rather than 15 years ago. They might have waited for Porto to sign these kids and then kind of reduce the risk factor and buy them a couple of years later when they're accustomed to European football. I think now that's shifted towards, I would rather actually have them at our training ground with our coach's words in his ears. And that is seen as more valuable than two years in, in Portugal, in, you know, France, maybe.
- [21:07]
Ayo Akemolere
That brings me nicely on to sort of how he fits into this Madri squad. Thomas, look. Killian Mbappe, as we said, massive, massive headline. And you're looking at another attacking player coming from Brazil who's supposed to the big, big Brazilian star. How on earth does this young man fit into this squad? You know, as Jax just pointed out, the other two were sort of filtering. Rodrigo and Vinicius over time were filtered into the squad, but for the money they've paid for him, you'd expect him to be making a decent impact in this Madrid squad as well.
- [21:39]
Thomas Hill
Yeah. All we've heard so far from Carlo Ancelotti is that Endrick is going to be part of the first team squad. But as you say, it's hard to see a place for him. I think it's worth noting that Vinicius and Rodrygo's paths to the first team weren't always linear, in fact, haven't always been linear. So Vinicius had a couple of seasons where, you know, he was maybe scoring five, six goals a season. But you know, his shooting was, was, was pretty off. He wasn't kind of clinical in front of goal like we see him now. And he's become this really complete player which I think is kind of what Jack touched on as well. The thing of Madrid wanting to bring these players in and sort of train them in, in their way. Rodrygo kind of similarly, he has this, this great Champions League debut and he's had some amazing moments obviously against City in the, in the Champions League. But now he's kind of gone off the ball a bit as well. I was listening to Spanish radio this morning talking about his, his charisma maybe, maybe lacking a bit of that, which is, you know, goes to show another key thing, at least from the, from the Madrid press kind of view. So I think Endrick will be allowed time. I don't think he'll be an automatic starter. Madrid don't really have an out and out. Number nine, apart from Kosalu who we've, we've reported this week, is, is, you know, the expectation is more and more that he's going to stay. So that's Kosalu and you know, the expected arrival of Mbappe as well ahead of him. So I don't think even he would expect to be starting immediately. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If we look at Vitoroke at Barca, you know, that's kind of Barca emulating Madrid a bit in that signing a young Brazilian start and he's struggled a bit since they brought forward that move in January. So I think it could definitely benefit him to have a bit of time on the bench, learn from the likes of Mbappe Vinicius and somehow try and plot a way into that team.
- [23:21]
Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, this is a really fascinating one because it's also, I think about the psychology of players and from what I'm hearing, from what you've written about him, Nick, is that this is a really level headed young man who sort of has a sense of his destiny. You know, he's, he's preordained destiny, I should say, but also, you know, incomes, a superstar from Brazil, everyone loves him, he's the number one, everyone's shining the light on him. Comes to Real Madrid, probably doesn't get to play as much football. What do you reckon that would do for a player like him? Has he got the personality to be able to deal with those hardships.
- [23:54]
Jack Lang
Yeah. I mean, again, you keep going back to his youth and it's just quite difficult to properly assess what kind of character he is given that he is so young. But again, when I spoke to him, it was that you did get the sense that he was, well, certainly more sensible than I would have been if I was. If someone paid a lot of money for me when I was 15. Just sort of reading back the interview after I'd done it, you were kind of going through the questions and going, yeah, that's exactly what you expect someone, or exactly what someone should have said to that question. There were a couple of slightly unexpected things like as I said, the emphasis on his work rate, but everything was very kind of measured and very considered. An element of that will almost certainly be training and advice that he's got. But it's also impossible to completely train a kid like that. So I think it is pretty clear that he is very level headed, very sensible, even though he has got this kind of massive move at a very early age. It's logical as well. If you are going to move to a big European club, you move to the big European club that have made successes of similar players to you. The players that you've talked about, young Brazilian players who have come over at maybe slightly older than him, of similar ages. So it's not just that he's going, oh, Real Madrid is the shiniest club in the world. It's that there's a degree of thought behind it as well.
- [25:26]
Nick Miller
Just to go back to the kind of emotional side of things. I think there does need to be an element of caution, of care, not just for his age, but through because of the personality he is. So about a year ago, so 2022 was this breakout year, kind of shone in this youth tournament at the start of the year, promoted to Palmeira's first team, kind of chips in with a few goals as they won the title. All great 2023 starts and he's in and out of the team. So his coach at Palmeiras Alberta is a kind of no nonsense Portuguese guy, kind of not necessarily an arm around the shoulder. Figure he can be quite hard lined and he is not the kind of person who would put someone in the team just for, just for the sake of it. So he, you know, he was putting Endrick in and out of the team and at one point this seemed to get to Endrick a bit. He was kind of subbed off in a game, he was photographed, he kind of pulled his Shirt over his head to cover it, but he was crying under the shirt. And so there was a kind of a little bit of a moment of concern there for how this kid was dealing with all the hype around him. He seemed to bounce back from that pretty well. He's very well advised, we're told, and seems to have gone. His family unit is very close, so he has got a support network. But at that point, point it was clear how much pressure there is on a 17 year old kid once they've signed for Real Madrid. And now since that, he kind of really shone in the second half of last year, particularly in the title running in Brazil, played a really critical part. But I think if we look at him on a, on a spectrum of personalities. So you've got on one side maybe neymar and Vinicius Jr, who have kind of just got this, I would say, in a good way, this kind of brattiness to them they had when they were 17, 18, they were just complete, you know, completely certain of their own value. They played like it too. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you've got maybe Rodrigo. He is a bit quieter. You know, I think the fact that he was less hyped is a factor of that personality. He's not as marketable, Rodrigo. He's, you know, he's a quiet guy. And I think those two things often dovetail, like the hype plays off the personality and vice versa. I think Endrick is probably somewhere in the middle, but I don't think he is that, that necessarily that kind of, yeah, come at me, show me what you've got. I'll take you all on attitude that Neymar and Vinicius have always had. So that will be interesting to see. I mean, not necessarily a bad thing. You know, players of that personality have always thrived. And I think he certainly doesn't seem to lack confidence in himself. Just the way he carries himself, the way he, he does his kind of press duties off the pitch. You know, Nick spoke to him two years ago and it's. From what I've seen, it's only snowballed since then. He's done a lot of media work. He kind of his team picks his opportunities very well. He speaks openly, he's kind of, he's been learning English, all the kind of classic things. So he's not, you know, a shy shrinking violet by any means. But if things start badly in Madrid and you've got Marca and, you know, all the newspapers piling in within the first six Months if he's not playing. Yeah, it's at that point we need to remember that this is just a teenager and we should probably take our time with him.
- [28:45]
Jack Lang
Yeah.
- [28:46]
Ayo Akemolere
That brings me to this one, Thomas, really, especially in this Real Madrid squad, do you think you need to show big personality to play for this team? And also it makes me think of the great Galacticos of the past versus what we're seeing now with a much younger squad. You know, Real Madrid used to buy much older back in the day. You talk about the Beckhams, the Carlos'the, Rauls, obviously he came through there, but the Zidanes and stuff, you're looking at more established players with big personalities and a sense of self. Do you think the model now Madrid is a. I would say softer, but probably more formulated to help young players like him thrive if they haven't got that big personality.
- [29:21]
Thomas Hill
Yeah, there's a tight knit group of young players and it's true that you'd say that players like Camavinga and Tchouameni probably do have a slightly different personality than Bellingham, for instance. I think to really thrive, to really return to those Marca front covers and stuff, you probably do need that big personality like Bellingham. I don't think it's. It's a bad thing from Madrid's point of view that he's railed against the referees as well. You know, they kind of all see themselves in him. Similarly with, with Vinicius. I think actually the bigger the personality, as long as you can back up with your performances, Madrid fans do really like that. But ultimately I do think it comes down to your performances as well.
- [29:56]
Jack Lang
Right.
- [29:57]
Thomas Hill
Like I think, as Jack says, if he, if he has a brilliant start to his career, Madrid fans won't care if he's quiet or extroverted. It's just that that does kind of tide you along. Even in these last couple of weeks, when Bellingham perhaps hasn't been scoring as much as in the early parts of the season, it's not that he's playing badly, he's playing a slightly different role, but that does help because everyone remembers the celebrations, everyone remembers that amazing start and along with that, everything that's endeared him to. To Madrid fans. So, yeah, I think perceptions count for a lot in Madrid, but he'll be very aware of that. He's from the same agency as Vinicius Junior. I think that will probably help as well because they'll presumably know what Vinicius's experience was like and he just needs to. Yeah, needs to know to take things slow. Really.
- [30:51]
Jack Lang
Foreign.
- [30:56]
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- [31:25]
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Nick Miller
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- [31:59]
Nick Miller
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akamolero.
- [32:05]
Ayo Akemolere
There's a piece I read recently around you know he's a black player coming to Spain and we obviously know the stuff that's happened with Vinicius in Spain. Do you think his team are protecting him in that way? I'll go to you on this Thomas. Do you think you talk about him being with. I think it's Roc nation, isn't it? Like do you think they are enforcing him with the tools to be able to come into such a way into the spotlight of La Liga and be able to deal with such things?
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Thomas Hill
Yeah, I mean so this Spain Brazil friendly on Tuesday is a kind of anti racism initiative in support of Vinicius. I think he'll. Yeah, I'm sure Endrick will have seen. I think he was previously asked about it by our reporter Mario Cortegana actually about the racist abuse suffered by Vinicius. Clearly that's still a problem Spain are dealing with and Vinicius himself at various points has felt let down by the club. I do think it's important that Madrid have all these young black talents together in one team. That's something we, I don't think we've previously seen really for real Madrid and it's maybe a contrast with even the, the even the Galacticos. So to see how that develops will be interesting but I think, I think Hendrick will See Vinicius's experience and hopefully Madrid will, will want to protect him just as much.
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Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, Nick can't help but look at his feet and see a pair of gold and black New Balance boots. And I always think about young players and, and their marketability and, you know, you think about the huge space that's left in this Brazil squad with the Pele's gone and obviously the Romarios and obviously classic R9. How marketable is this young man? How is he looked at in Brazil in terms of, is he the next messiah of football? Are they throwing, you know, sponsorships at him already and all that kind of stuff?
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Jack Lang
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, he was doing, I can't remember what the products were, but he was doing already doing commercials before he had signed this senior contract with Palmeiras when he was 15, 16. I mean, as we've discussed, he's not necessarily the type of personality or even the type of player that you would kind of classically associate with those, you know, highly marketed Brazilian players. Someone like Neymar's the classic example who has become this kind of lesser footballer, more this kind of industrial complex where he's got this kind of huge company that is run by his father, I think, back in Brazil, who essentially rely on him and his kind of commercial activities. So I suspect it won't be quite on that level. But if he does become Brazil's kind of next superstar number nine, then, you know, he may kind of reach, if not the same levels as Neymar, as kind of as similar. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that, how that develops.
- [34:51]
Nick Miller
One thing that counts in his favor in terms of marketability is the fact that he has a really kind of broad fan base in Brazil. So he kind of unites fans of all different clubs at this stage in his career. That can change very quickly. We know, but you know, fans of other Sao Paulo clubs, Flamengo. So there was a memorable moment when they played Flamengo last year when he went up to a Flamengo supporting family in the crowd and they asked for a selfie and a Flamengo fan handed him his baby so he could take a picture of him. So there's this kind of. And I suppose that that largely comes from the fact that there is this expectation that he's going to be really special. So there's, there's kind of a, a big movement behind him thinking, this guy could be Brazil's next number. This guy could be really important for us. So that's part of it. There's also just the way he plays is kind of boyish enthusiasm. He's not someone who winds up opposition defenders, opposition fans. He hasn't got a kind of. There's no friction to his game in the way there was with, you know, to use the same examples again and again. Neymar and Vinicius Jr. Both wound people up constantly with the way they played. And I think winding people up with the way you play then causes, like, a second wave of people to be annoyed at your kind of. Of the way you dress, the way you do, your hair, your lifestyle, your jewelry, all of that. I think that is sparked by a confrontational style of play, which I adore. I mean, I've got nothing against this at all. I think part of the dribbler's art is to, you know, it's the. It's like a. It's a matador spirit. Endrick doesn't really play in that way. He's. He's a little bit different. He's. He's more lovable in a broad sense. And I think. I think that will certainly make him, you know, if he can maintain that over the next 10 years, if he doesn't, you know, really annoy fans of a certain club before he leaves, that would definitely be in his favor. He kind of. He's the whole of Brazil's darling at this stage, which you couldn't really say about some of his predecessors.
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Ayo Akemolere
Yeah. And what about the. The link with Carlo Ancelotti? I know there's three Brazilian forwards potentially playing at Real Madrid right now, and obviously Ancelotti has been touted to be the Brazilian coach. Obviously, he's at Real Madrid at this moment in time. Could this be a future, Jack? Him playing under Ancelotti at Real Madrid? And then one day, Ancelotti seamlessly ends up on the beat of Kofka Cabana, coaching the Brazilian team, living life out there. You know, could we see this?
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Nick Miller
Yeah. I mean, I tell you, at. At this stage, I think he would have to, like, offer the world's greatest apology, because they were. They were waiting for him for the last year. They kind of came out of the World cup, appointed a guy to kind of keep the seat warm for him. And the idea that he was going to. Was that he was going to take over in June, just before the Copa. They were kind of. They were really, you know, they set their stall out. They didn't announce him, but the president of the federation had publicly said, look, we're expecting Ancelotti to arrive, you know, a complete Embarrassment for the Brazilian federation, which has a complete embarrassment every three or four days to be fair. But like this was, this was one of the worst ones since I've been following them, just completely putting on pause any notion of progress really. They've wasted a whole year waiting for Ancelotti and Ancelotti in the end was under contract and decided to extend his contract. And you know, Brazil are left three months out from a big tournament, having to kind of scrabble around. So I would think that the kind of Ancelotti to Brazil thing, even an organization as ridiculous as Brazil's federation would probably not go back there. But obviously, yeah, clip that up and keep that on your file for when they appoint him in about four years time.
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Ayo Akemolere
But football is ever changeable. Nick, what do you think of this connection with Carlo Ancelotti? Because of course, you know, Milan, he was with Kaka and we mentioned Pato as well. He's got experience with Brazilian players and currently coaching a couple at this moment in time at Real Madrid.
- [38:44]
Jack Lang
Yeah, I mean it's such an, obviously such an international game these days. He wouldn't think that that sort of thing would, would necessarily matter. But in the same way that he is being guided by the, you know, similar, same advisors as Vinicius, the idea that, that he's now going to be coached by the guy who has guided Vinicius into being one of the best players in the world will undoubtedly help. And Ancelotti doesn't have a. You were talking about combative players earlier on. He doesn't have a combative reputation as a manager obviously. So he's likely to be the kind of arm around the shoulder manager for a very young player. And yeah, you would think in theory that that would be exactly the kind of personality that would help Brazilian player playing on a new continent for the first time settle in and flourish.
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Thomas Hill
It's a good point that Nick makes because even Zidane, with all his success at Madrid towards the end of his time there, wasn't trusting in Vinicius as much. And arguably if he stays, Vinicius doesn't develop into this kind of killer in front of goal that he's become. I do think Madrid have trusted Ancelotti with this generation as shown by that contract extension they gave him just before Christmas until, until 2026. There is something funny there of this kind of grizzled veteran in Ancelotti getting the best out of this young group of players who clearly all seem to love him. And I don't think that's necessarily always bound to happen at Madrid having a content dressing room. We've seen other managers like Benitez Mourinho ultimately lead to kind of division among those senior players. So to get the best out of this young group of players, Ancelotti seems to be doing making all the right noises, doing all the right things, giving people the playing time they want. Sometimes maybe not so much in case of players like Brian Diaz. And still they seem to be happy. And I think that that shows his kind of nous as a manager.
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Ayo Akemolere
Yeah, for sure. Well, let's end it there gents. Thanks so much for your time. We'll be back again tomorrow for another podcast. Please don't forget to rate and review us as well. Thanks for listening.
- [40:50]
Nick Miller
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was A.Y.
- [40:57]
Thomas Hill
Moorhead.
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Nick Miller
To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on.
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Jack Lang
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Nick Miller
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Jack Lang
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How many discounts will you stack up?
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Ayo Akemolere
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