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- [00:01]
Noah Chestnut
Hey, it's Noah Chestnut from the Athletic. If you're into games and sports, pay attention. I'm gonna give you four sports terms. You tell me the common thread. Ready? Game. Match point. Set. This one's kind of a gimme. The answer is how tennis is scored. Do you want more of a challenge? Check out Connections Sports edition. It's a new daily game for sports fans to play. Now. Go to theathletic.com connection.
- [00:34]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletic FC Podcast Network. Hi there, I'm Adam Leventhal. Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. Coming up, Manchester United and Tottenham's hopes of Champions League football next season are well and truly alive after those comprehensive victories in their Europa League semi final first legs. But Nottingham Forest dreams of qualifying for Europe's elite competition. Well, they've been dented. We'll look at the fight to get into Europe via the league a little later. But why bother being good in the league when you could just do it the Manchester United and Spurs way? It's a lot more fun. Karl Anker covers United for the Athletic. Jack Pitt Brook is our spurs man and preview regular Timothy Spears is here as well. It's great to have you all with us. So Athletic Bilbo nil. Manchester United 3. A trio of goals could have been more. A clean sheet, no implosions. Karl, your emotions.
- [01:35]
Karl Anker
Shock. Bamboozlement. Flabbergasted. Manchester United were playing one of the biggest games of the season and they went about it like a group of adults. Instead of the usual thing we've seen this season and parts of last season as well, it was a tremendous performance and one that left us all scratching heads going, oh, where's this been all year?
- [01:58]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, exactly. It did look surprisingly assured and we'll dig into it a little bit more. But let's deal with the spurs side of things. 31 at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium against Burdig Limt, Brennan Johnson put Spurs ahead after what, 38 seconds. Then we had goals from Maddison and Solanke and again, it was very comfortable.
- [02:22]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, spurs were by far the better team. I was really impressed with them with their pragmatism, with their directness. They played a game around the strengths of their players and the weaknesses of the opposition. That's not something we see every week from Tottenham this season. They should have won by more. I think they dominated the game. Glimt scored from really their first real shot on goal. Even that was a bit of a deflection, so they should have put the tie to bed. But a two goal lead is not Nothing. And I think that if they can play in Norway like they played last night, they'll be fine.
- [02:52]
Adam Leventhal
Manchester United have lost 15 Premier League matches and they're 14th in the table. Tottenham have suffered 19 defeats and they're 16th disastrous league, Tim. But obviously a strong possibility now that they're going to be facing each other in the Europa league final. And the subplots for that would be fascinating, wouldn't they?
- [03:11]
Timothy Spears
Yeah, I mean, obviously great for all sort of English neutrals if it were to happen. Not great for the rest of Europe. Who would probably prefer the romance of bodo glimps or, you know, Bilbao at home. But yeah, I remember this being termed the banter derby when it was in the league a few weeks ago. And it is mad how the seasons have sort of mirrored each other in terms of awful, you know, league form. And the Europa league has become the only thing to cling onto for both of them, really. And obviously they can't both win it. If they both performed like they did last night, it'd be a hell of a final. Like, it would be an epic occasion. But you say strong possibility. I do think we have to row back slightly.
- [03:47]
Adam Leventhal
Okay.
- [03:48]
Timothy Spears
From, you know, assuming that this is the final because, you know, where. Where have we all been all season? You know, I don't think fans of either team will be presuming that their team are going to get through because they're both so fragile. You know, Carl says, where on earth did this come from? Because it just doesn't happen for man United. And they both capitulate quite a lot. So they did need the buffer that they both got last night. Especially if you look at spurs bodo glimpse home record in the Europa League knockout ties in recent months. They beat Twente 5 2, Olympiacos 3 nil and Lazio 2 nil at home. All those scorelines would be good enough to take the tie to extra time should they repeat that next week. I've looked at the weather forecast. It's going to be six degrees on an artificial pitch. So, you know, we will be building this up next sort of Wednesday and Thursday as all you know, can squeak through. And as for United, you know, the Lyon 20 to 42 just tells us what they're capable of. And also they've lost quite a few home games by considerable margins this season. 3 nil at home to Bournemouth, 31 at home to Brighton. So it's not over yet. You know, I really hope they both get through, but it's definitely not over yet.
- [04:54]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, well, let's let's put that to both Carl and Jack. Is Tim just being sort of typically a fun sponge, a glass half full sort of fella, or is there a worry? Carl to you first.
- [05:08]
Karl Anker
I totally get it right. 2 nil, 3 nil up. I'm going, oh, what's the Spanish word for town? And let's have a celebration. And I had more than one Manchester United fan say, don't jinx it, don't jinx it, behave yourself. When Maserawi hit the crossbar just before halftime to make it full, I think two or three fans are going, ooh, that was it. And there is a small hint of regret from some United fans go, oh, why don't we run up the score against a 10 men athletic club as well? However, I think the returning from injury status of two or three other United players does also give confidence. You know, this was the first leg saw Ahmad come off the bench, his first return from an ankle injury. Mason Mount seems to be nearing full fitness, if not match sharpness. Luke Shaw now is playing minutes as well. So while the second leg at Old Trafford will be nervous and if anything, I was surprised Manchester United kept a clean sheet because it feels like they don't do that enough anymore. I'm quite confident United will get through in this second leg. Put it to you this way, if I was booking my flight to a hotel for Bilbao right now, I would be booking them, but I'd be booking them on a free cancellation.
- [06:20]
Adam Leventhal
Yes, yes, I hear you. Are you sensing Jack more of a nerve jangler for Spurs?
- [06:27]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, yeah, because they're going to, they're going to a really unique challenge in Berta Glimpse. You know this. Everybody knows how many good teams they've beaten over the last few years on their artificial pitch. I think that is more relevant than the fact that it's in the arctic circle. You know, Tottenham played one game on artificial pitch this season. They needed extra time to beat Tamworth in the FA Cup. Maybe that would be a useful learning experience, but I think it'll be tough. 2 goal lead. Like I said, it's not nothing, but it's not game over either. But you'd still make spurs favourites, I don't know, 60, 40 favourites perhaps to go through at this point, but I am confident that they will play well again and I would much rather be in their position than Berta Glimps.
- [07:11]
Karl Anker
So you're booking it. Free cancellation.
- [07:13]
Jack Pitt Brook
I booked it.
- [07:13]
Karl Anker
I booked it. He's booked it. He's booked it. Look at him.
- [07:16]
Jack Pitt Brook
Oh yeah, I booked my Passenger ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao weeks ago.
- [07:19]
Karl Anker
Ah, you're taking the ferry.
- [07:21]
Timothy Spears
Sens.
- [07:22]
Jack Pitt Brook
Taking the ferry for. I don't really know why. I'm quite a weird person and I just thought I had like a moment where a few weeks ago I thought, I have to get the ferry. I have to get the ferry. Which is actually no more expensive than a flight. Obviously. It takes so much longer. It takes. I leave on the Sunday evening and then I get to Bilbo on Tuesday morning. So it's going to be two nights cooped up with football fans. I'm looking forward to it.
- [07:48]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, sounds lovely. Carl. Before the game, Reuben Amarim said that the Europa League will not save United's season. Do you agree with him?
- [07:59]
Karl Anker
Oh, look.
- [08:01]
Adam Leventhal
And that's obviously winning it.
- [08:02]
Karl Anker
I haven't double checked to see if football clubs still release season DVDs, but there's not many highlights in this season to put on a dvd. Amrine's a very interesting talker in press conferences. He's honest, probably to a fault. If you're in the comms team at United, you're probably going, oh no, could you please be quiet. And he's been pretty honest about things. He says the league table is the, the most honest reflection of our seat of how we're doing and we've been underperforming. And yes, okay, if Manchester United do make it to the Europa League final and do find a way to triumph, getting to the Champions League, very, very useful from a financial sense and gives, gives a moment of glory. But I think in Amarin's mind, he's like, well, if you look at this current squad, we're not going to be able to do much in the Champions League next season and there's plenty of work to be done regardless of what happens in Bilbao on May 24, if Manchester United get there, this is going to go down as Manchester United's worst ever Premier League season. It's going to go down as Manchester United's worst domestic campaign for more than 30 years. And Amren's very honest about not shying away from that fact. That said, the game is about glory and is about winning things, as a former famous Tom Hotsworth man once said. So if the victory can be achieved, I think there will be some fond memories found.
- [09:17]
Adam Leventhal
And there is obviously uncertainty over Ange Postecoglou's future and that's been lingering on for quite some time. Jack. But would winning this competition and, you know, keeping up his second season, winning a trophy pledge, is there a chance that he stays on and it sort of solidifies his position.
- [09:36]
Jack Pitt Brook
I would be surprised if he's the manager for next season. Almost regardless of what happens, the league campaign has been disastrous. They've lost more than half their league games. They're going to probably. I reckon they're going to finish with having lost something like 20, 21 out of their 38 league games, which would be. I think it's going to be their. Depending on how badly it goes, it's going to be their worst, their worst league form measured by losses since either the 1934, 35 season or the 1912, 13 season. So you've got to go a long way back. For the last time, spurs have been this bad in the league. What I do think though, if they win is it will change. It will certainly change the reputation of Postecoglou. If he wins the Europa League, then not only has he fulfilled his famous pledge about I always win things in my second season, but he would have won, you know, Tottenham's first major trophy since 2008. He will have done what Pochettino couldn't do, or Mourinho or Conte or Nuno or an of those guys. So I think it would be. It would be a radically different narrative and it would allow him to say to the world, well, you know, we had it tough at times this season, but I've. I have come out and done. Done something historic, done something brilliant at Tottenham Hotspur. So I think that that's really the significance of it.
- [10:51]
Karl Anker
Jack, do you think that's a fair narrative if you were to win the Europa League?
- [10:54]
Jack Pitt Brook
If they win it, yeah. If they win it, I think it would be fair to heap a lot of praise on Ange for doing so. Like, obviously, as Man United found as well, being a well resourced Premier League team really put you in the driving seat in these competitions. You know, like you. Even if you're a bad Premier League team, you've got a level of player and like a. Like a sort of. And also like a well stocked squad, that means that you can compete on two fronts, even though spurs had struggles to do that in time. Like when you're coming up on a Thursday night against a European team who's got frankly a wage bill a fraction of whatever yours is, that means that to an extent you are playing on easy mode, I think, as a Premier League team in a European competition these days. And that's true of all Premier League teams in all European competitions. That all said, I think that Postecoglou has shown in the course of this European campaign. He's actually more willing to change it up than people think about him. They play a really pragmatic style. Yesterday they were really pragmatic when they went to Frankfurt and won 1 nil to get in that quarterfinal second leg. They've been adaptable. They have risen. You know, they've not been perfect, but they've risen to most the challenges thrown in front of them. And I think if they can take that all the way through to the. I mean, if they can take it all the way through the final, it's still a great campaign. And if they can win the Europa League, then I think that is a. I think people will and should massively attribute that to Postecoglou's managerial abilities, I think.
- [12:27]
Adam Leventhal
Do you agree with that, Tim? Because I think everyone's thinking Ruben Amarim, at the very least deserves a summer to try and get things right at Manchester United. And it appears as if Ange is still sort of hanging by a thread, albeit he's maybe put a couple of extra fibres into that mix for the last couple of weeks of the season. But do you think he would deserve another season? And are you prepared for the perhaps revisionism that would come if he did win the Europa League?
- [12:59]
Timothy Spears
No, I'm not prepared for that at all. And yeah, I do agree with you on Amarim. I think even if they lose the semis, he's still in a job. He needs the summer. He can't do what he wants with these players. I think the same would be true of most head coaches in that particular job. And yeah, I absolutely agree with everything Jack said. I mean, Postecogli needs the Europa League more than Amarim for sure in terms of his reputation and his future. I don't see a world where he stays on either. I think Jack's already reported their iron up replacements, which you wouldn't be surprised at. I think he has been dealt a bad hand in terms of some aspects of recruitment. I think the way that the club is run under Levy is a restriction for head coaches sometimes, certainly in terms of recruitment and injuries are the other sort of bad hand he's been dealt. But then you could also point to his methods and his training and say that's been a factor, as it has at previous clubs. So, yeah, I think you've got to look at also Levy here. He's not the type of person who goes on sentiment, is he? I think he's one of the few in the Premier League who would still sack the manager who's just Ended the trophy drought. You know, there's someone who got rid of Mourinho on the eve of a cup final. So that's the kind of person we deal with. And I think the other thing I'd say, obviously it would be a great achievement to win the Europa League. But again, echoing what Jack said, the teams they've beaten to get there, other than Frankfurt, who were third in the Bundesliga, and I thought that was a fantastic result. The teams that they've sort of beaten this season, I mean, you know, Hoffenheim in a relegation battle in the Bundesliga, Elfsburg RZ and then, you know, Bodo Glimps, okay, amazing achievement to get to the semis. But you'd be expecting spurs with the team that they've got to beat all these teams. So, yeah, I think just about on the dial you're going to say, look, Post Cogli has not done enough. The league's been an absolute disaster. And that's where you judge your manager on.
- [14:48]
Jack Pitt Brook
I think a lot will depend on the sentiment of the fans. Like hypothetically, if Tottenham were to win the Europa League, I think that if we. If it feels that the fans are really rallying behind the manager, then maybe, maybe that could be an influence. I just remember, you know, with Manchester united with erik10hag last season, clearly like they were thinking seriously about getting rid of him. And then he won the FA Cup Final and then he stayed. But I always felt, and I'd be interested to hear Karl's take on this, I always felt like Man United fans were much more Pro 10 Hag at that point. They were really sympathetic to him relative to Tottenham fans with Postecoglou, who I think I feel maybe less sympathetic than Man United Fans were to 10 Hag this time last year.
- [15:30]
Karl Anker
I find it fascinating talking about United and Spurs, because to me, Ange Postecoglou is repeating nearly every single major mistake Erik Ten Hag did last season. So to hear Tim say, oh, he's been kind of dealt a bad hand with injuries. No, he hasn't. He's just done what erik10hag did, which is just run a bunch of players into the ground and push them into the red zone. And then all of a sudden their hamstrings go ping. The clue's in your name. You're a manager. Manage your squad. And I don't think Ante Pasio Cogli's done that at all. I don't think that can be mitigating circumstances for what's going on at Tottenham Hotspur. To answer your question. About the sentiment towards Ekton Hartles in the last season. Yeah, absolutely. I'd say it was maybe 60, 40, move on from him to stay. And then going into that FA cup final where pretty much the majority of people were expecting him to lose to Manchester City and then removed only for him to win, caused just this huge euphoric cheer. There was an open letter from. From some Manchester United fans asking Ineos to keep him. And there you go. Eric Tenag was given a year extension only for then Sir Jim Ratcliffe to admit that that was an error, as well as the hiring of Dan Ashworth. So this sort of managers going into cup semi finals and going to cup finals needing to win a tournament to save their job, there's precedent, but also there's precedent for the owner going, I probably shouldn't have done that and I probably shouldn't have succumbed to that sort of emotion.
- [17:05]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, let's talk a little bit more about the performances of both Manchester United and Tottenham. And Jack, I'll start with you because obviously we focus a lot on. On Ange Postecoglou's future, but he did rotate. He made a couple of changes. Basuma and Richarlison playing. Do you. Do you feel that aside from anyone's take about what he's like and how he behaves in front of the media, et cetera, et cetera, do you think that there's some tactical credit in the bank that he still has?
- [17:37]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, I mean, I think that credit is in part generated by moments like last night. Like last night was not sort of conventional Angeball in any way. They played a really pragmatic, effective direct game, which is exactly what they're often accused of not doing. And I think those selections of Pishthuma and Richarlison are the really obvious talking point. Like, nobody would have expected Basuma to start. Bergwaer got injured. You would expect Sar or Kulasevski to start, but he went for Basouma. Nobody would have expected Richarlison to start. Like with son injured, you would expect Tell or Odebert or maybe Kulasevski out of position, but he went for Richarlison. So in both cases he's gone for basically experience, physical power. And it worked like within 35 seconds. Bissouma wins the ball. He's got no right to win. Poirot cross for Charlatan, far post header. And then Brennan Johnson scores. Bissouma gave up what I thought was his best performance of what's been a pretty shaky season, to be honest. Where I don't think he's been nearly as good as he can be. Richarlison gave absolutely everything, 45 minutes technical execution wasn't great but he worked really hard and put but a glimps under pressure, so. But I thought that selecting those two guys, going to a more direct, more pragmatic style of play was a big success and like completely integral to Spurs.
- [18:52]
Adam Leventhal
Great night, Carl. Is Ruben Amarim's team and tactics starting to sort of show now? Are you getting more of a clear idea of a United identity? Dare I say it slowly?
- [19:06]
Karl Anker
It feels like something shifted in his touchline demeanour, I must say. I'd say in the last four or five weeks he's become noticeably more animated on the touchline. I'd say in a defeat against Newcastle he was more or less furious, particularly when Manchester United off the ball and he's really, really, really demanding of what he wants his back three and his wing backs to do and the spaces they need to cover and how they need to run it behind. I'm not necessarily sure if this sort of coalescing and coming together is going to yield positive results with this squad which just in Amaranth's own words, he said, you can see this squad lacks many characteristics. But we're beginning to see, I suppose it's a pencil sketch of a greater blueprint. I know what you're trying to do. I also know that a number of your players are just yet equipped for it. And I also know that in trying to do it this early, you're also revealing a number of weaknesses that will probably be there. Even if you do get in the sort of players you need, there's a real sort of trickiness if an opponent presses really, really high man to man against Manchester United when they're building up from the back, which puts a lot of pressure on Harry Maguire or whoever else plays in that middle centre back role. But like Jack said, in the Europa League, when you've got that much bigger wage budget and also physicality. Amren's spoken about this before and Ugarte's spoken about this in that there's just a lower level of physicality. In the Europa League, you've got an extra two or three seconds. I'd say two or three. One or two seconds on the ball, take the ball, trap it, turn around, make the pass that isn't there. When you're playing against Bournemouth, Nottingham Forest, let alone a team like Liverpool.
- [20:48]
Adam Leventhal
You mentioned Maguire there, but I don't. You didn't get his first Name, right? I don't think Carl Lemine.
- [20:56]
Karl Anker
Lemine Maguire?
- [20:57]
Timothy Spears
Yeah.
- [20:57]
Adam Leventhal
I thought you called him Harry. I was like, what? What's going on? We have to talk about him. He has become a figure of fun, you know, for a couple of seasons now. But what he has done in the last two games in Europe has been incredible. And just that moment out on the right hand side, seeing someone committed to their trade, you know, thinking, you know what, I'm not going to be safe, I'm not going to play within myself. I'm going to do this because the team needs me to do this. And I thought it was actually really heartwarming to see him do what he did, even though he's probably being ridiculed and we're part of it, calling him Lamine Maguire. But fair play to him.
- [21:36]
Karl Anker
It's been a tremendous turnaround. I'd argue there's an 18 month period where Harry Maguire is the most widely mocked player in the Premier League. He was relentlessly, relentlessly Marx. I remember listening to a clip from a Ghanaian member of Parliament when he called an opponent an economic Maguire, saying he was such a, he's made such a costly mistake. I've seen clips of Bayern Munich's Upper Meccano lose the ball when under pressure, only for a Saudi Arabian commentator to call him Upper Maguire. Raphael Van Der Wat has been made no secret of what he thinks of Harry Maguire. And there were just loads of jokes about Maguire because he is a man of strength and size, that when his timing in a tackle is great, it's fantastic. But when his timing tackle is bad, particularly because he's not that quick, he's not blessed with recovery pace in the same way that say Van der Vern or Konate, Liverpool or other Premier League center backs. He can get burned by some quick defenders. So it became very obvious when Harry Maguire made a defensive mistake. But rather than down tools or whatnot, he got his head down and just kept plugging away. You got to bear in mind this is a football player who very, very nearly last season went to West Ham and it looked like his Manchester United career was over. And he's just built and built and built. He hasn't talked too much to the press, hasn't done any sort of training, ground strikes and whatnot. And he's just slowly built a decent too good portfolio of work. We know Harry Maguire is a defender right now, even when he was good, we nicknamed him Slabad because he was so effective at winning balls in the air. And yet he's just worked really well, at the things he's really good at and the things he's not so good at. He's been thankfully able to delegate that or been surrounded by other teammates. And yeah, I think it's fantastic that he's now having a wonderful two or three games in European football. Well earned.
- [23:38]
Adam Leventhal
What's your take on this redemption story, Tim?
- [23:41]
Timothy Spears
I thought his winning goal in the quarter was probably the moment of the season in the whole of sort of English. English themed football. And I was in Europe, but I don't know, I thought it was an incredible moment. And yeah, what he did last night, I mean, the Bill Bauer defender's not covering himself in glory, I've got to say. The fantastically named Mikhail Uragiza, which is how I'm going to pronounce it. I don't think I'm too far off with that, but that's what I'm gonna stick with anyway. I don't know if he's retired yet, but it wasn't his finest hour. But, yeah, no, I'm really. I'm really pleased for Maguire. He's been barracked and belittled everywhere he's gone, by fans, media, even by managers. Really. I thought he was really hard done by Ten Hag stripping him of the captaincy. That was brutal. And then equally sort of brutal was Southgate ditching him for the Euros when it was contentious, whether he would have played or not. I know he had a knock, but I thought again, very harsh. And yet he sort of. He keeps going, you know, I think it's a huge testament to his sort of character and resilience and professionalism, which are the kind of attributes that United have lacked as a collective for a very long time. You know, this. Okay, he's limited, but he's got exactly the right mentality and character that you want. Slightly in the sort of Scott McTominay mold, I guess. But United have so often in recent years had players with bags and bundles of talent, but lack the character that Maguire has. So he's an example, really, I think, for the rest of the players and for the club as a whole.
- [25:05]
Adam Leventhal
I'll come back to Manchester United and what's going on off the field in a moment. But Jack, just on spurs ahead of the Premier League game against West Ham. Presumably they're going to be rotating heavily and also there's a little bit of concern over Solanke and Madison picking up injuries.
- [25:23]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, so Postecoglou said in the press conference last night that he wasn't too concerned about Those two. That said, Postecoglou is giving a press conference on Friday lunchtime, so it might be that he will reveal a bit more about it then. To be honest, I think whether those guys are injured or not, I can't see them playing at West Ham on Sunday. We know what Postecoglou's approach has been these league games. The last few months, he's rested and rotated, he's managed minutes, all to make sure the team are at maximum strength for these European games. I think that that approach has been unpopular because it's obviously contributed to their bad league form. At the same time, I think it's probably been justified because a big part of their Europa League knockout campaign has been having Van der Ven Romero fully fit to play 90 minutes at every point. They couldn't really have done that if they were also churning it out in the Premier League at the same time. So, yeah, I would expect to see lots of rotations again. I wouldn't be surprised at West Ham. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole back four arrested. Madison obviously as well. Solanke, maybe Benton Kerr, maybe Johnson. So yeah, lots of changes I would expect.
- [26:30]
Adam Leventhal
And I would expect the same for Manchester United as well at Brentford on Sunday. Carl, just a quick word from you on the situation off the field. Laurie Whitwell reporting that Sir Jim Radcliffe's second round of redundancies expected to take place this week and two members of the senior leadership team are amongst those to go. What are the details of that? Because it seems it's just been a constant subplot since the start of this, this new era at United.
- [26:59]
Karl Anker
Yes, yes, there's been two quite large rounds of layoffs now to the point where it's looking like Manchester United under Sir Jim Radcliffe have let go a third of their staff. As reported by Laurie Whitwell. We had seen two senior figures in United's, I think it's best described as recruitment team, will be departing. Richard Hawkins, the director of Football Insights and Innovations, and David Harrison, who's the director of football operations. They all both have been informed they no longer have roles in the future. It's a really difficult subject to broach because these are people not on the hundred thousand pound a week wages that none of these sort of players have and they're being let go of in part because of the underperformance of the football team on the football field. So another reason why Manchester United need to win this Europa League, need to get into the Champions League because the, the broadcast revenue and increase in Revenues that the Champions League bring could should depending on again, depending who you talk to, depending what time of day it is, depending on if you're close to Christmas and which Christmas spirit is visiting a certain billionaire secure further employment for others.
- [28:09]
Adam Leventhal
Well, Carl and Jack are going to be heading off after the break. Tim and I are going to get into the race for Champions League football via the more traditional route of doing well in the league, starting with Nottingham Forest, who were beaten 20 at home to Brentford on Thursday night. Right then, let's hear from the Athletics Nottingham Forest writer Paul Taylor after. After Thursday's two nil defeat at home against Brentford, which means for the first time since December, Forest are out of.
- [28:47]
Paul Taylor
The top five, Nottingham Forest chose a bad time to lose their identity at the City ground. A game against Brentford that they knew if they won would lift them into third place, would kind of reinvigorate their hopes of getting into the Champions League this season. But all the things that had lifted them into third place earlier in the season, all the things that had helped them to build this unexpected and brilliant challenge for European qualification, just fell away. They weren't there. This wasn't a Nottingham Freud's performance. This wasn't the kind of thing we're used to seeing from Nuno's side, particularly not at the City ground. They've kept 13 clean sheets this season. Matt Sells has been brilliant as a goalkeeper, and while he wasn't to blame at all tonight, what was to blame was a kind of fragility that we're not used to seeing. Nicola Milenkovic and Murillo have been superb in the heart of the back four, but they'll be disappointed with the two goals they conceded, both of which just came punts down the pitch. One from a defender, one from a goalkeeper. It just was so unforest. It was a night when the City Ground tried its best, when the fans really got behind their team, but they just couldn't deliver the kind of performance that we've been used to seeing, Forest just weren't themselves. And with four games left, four key games left, hope isn't lost. They can still get into the top five. They can still achieve the most unlikely of Champions League qualifications. But they do need to find themselves. They need to find their identity again. They need to get back to being Nottingham fans. Forest.
- [30:14]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, Tim. Let's get stuck into this then. The in the table. Newcastle third on 62 points. They've won six out of their last seven. Manchester City are fourth with 61 points. They're home To Wolves in. In the Friday night football. Four wins out of five. Back to being Manchester City again. And then Chelsea are fifth on 60 points. Three wins out of five. Forest now sixth also on 60 points. But three defeats out of their last four. And Villa are breathing down their neck. Three points back in seventh. It's looking dicey for Forest now, isn't it?
- [30:47]
Timothy Spears
Oh, yeah. They've fallen off just at the wrong time. And it's at both ends of the pitch, really. You know, they've only scored one in the last four, conceded four in the last two. I think the City semi final just epitomise where they're at right now. They had chances to score but didn't. But you know, when they were third, they were overachieving. Of course. I remember seeing at the time they were the only team in the top 10 that were over performing their XG in terms of goals scored. Newcastle have now sort of joined them on that after their great run. But there was always a kind of a sense that they were higher than, you know, that they were going to revert to their mean at some point. It was just whether they kept sort of grinding out those results. So, yeah, the Brentford game, exactly the kind of game they didn't want. 55% possession at home is not what they want. They don't want the ball. It's going to be really, really tight now. I think they probably need 10 points from their last four games. And the fixtures are really interesting. I mean, Forest have got Leicester at home and West Ham away, which are two good games. But then Chelsea at home on the last day. I mean, the whole thing set up amazingly, by the way, in terms of the teams you just mentioned, the positions, the fixtures, how tight it is, it really does sort of make up for the relegation and title race being done. It's going to be a hell of a race. And you can see, I think you can see all five of those teams still being involved on the last day.
- [32:09]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And I suppose that the dynamic could change again this weekend a little bit because Villa host Fulham, who are eighth and they're six points back. So that could bring them back into the mix again. That game's on Saturday. Brighton, who are in ninth also on 51 points. They're against Newcastle on Sunday and then Forest have to wait to go to Selhurst park against Crystal palace on the Monday Night Football. Do you think the way that things are panning out and the fact that Newcastle, Manchester City, Chelsea and even Villa have been there and done it over a number of years that Forest are going to still be in the mix by that final game of the season when they host Chelsea.
- [32:51]
Timothy Spears
Yeah, I do. I think you've been fanciful with Fulham, by the way. I think they're definitely out of it. Just trying to generate some excitement. I get it.
- [32:59]
Adam Leventhal
I thought you were sort of deep in love with Fulham earlier on this season.
- [33:02]
Timothy Spears
Yeah, no, I think. I think they're great. But. But yeah, they're like. You know, then they're nine points off with four games left and the caliber of teams above them. I think even if, Even if. No, you're shaking your head a bit, but it's not going to happen. The fixtures are really important. I mean, Forest go to palace on Monday night. Palace have got two eyes on the cup final now. And then you look at Villa, who, yes, at the moment are in the weakest position, but they've got the best run. They've got Fulham at home, which is a winnable game for them. They've got a good home record. Then they've got Bournemouth away. It's a good time to play Bournemouth. And then their last two fixtures, Villa, they've got spurs and Man United. And the Europa League final is in between those two games. So there's no way that spurs or United in playing anywhere near their best team. Whatever sort of happened, really. So, yeah, it's, it's. It's really hard to call. I think Newcastle, given their recent momentum, probably going to be just about in there. But then they've. They've got Brighton away, Chelsea at home, Arsenal away. In their next three, they've probably got the toughest run. So honestly, it's absolutely fascinating and really hard to call. But as you kind of say, momentum is absolutely key at this time of year. And Forest don't have it. And Villa, now we get to see Emery's got a huge job on his hands to lift them after the huge disappointment of first Champions League, then the FA cup, you know, can they rouse themselves? Because like I said, they have got on paper for me probably the best run. They can still be in there as well.
- [34:38]
Adam Leventhal
So Chelsea prepare to host the champions Liverpool this weekend. The athletic Simon Johnson was in Stockholm to watch Enzo Maresca's side run out 41 winners in their UEFA Conference League semi final first leg against Jurgans.
- [34:53]
Simon Johnson
Look, we. We did get to see the benefit of. Of these guys coming on Jackson. Those two goals would have done even more wonders for his confidence. That's. That's three goals in two games. The. The way he took the second Goal in particular was absolutely beautiful. And Casado of course provided the assists with a brilliant winning of the ball. Palmer, unfortunately, who can get on the score sheet, but an assist for him, I think in terms of those guys, it helped kill the tie off even more. So perhaps that's part of Maresca's thinking and a bit like when he started Palmer and Jackson against legia in the second leg when Chelsea had a 30 lead from the away tie. I think he's obviously sort of thinking just try and get their confidence going. And on the whole you'd have to say his decision paid off.
- [35:40]
Adam Leventhal
And Tim, they just have to basically concentrate on the League rather than the Conference League because it's far more important getting into the Champions League than it is, you know, getting into the Europa League via winning the Conference League, isn't it?
- [35:53]
Timothy Spears
Yeah, I think so. You know, we spoke earlier about the, the importance of a trophy for like for Tottenham, for obvious reasons, to a slightly lesser extent Man United, but for, for Chelsea, I mean, you know, if, if they win the Conference League, I'm not sure what it really means. If anything it'll be a nice day. But it doesn't, it doesn't mean they go in places. You know, Jurgarns are 11th in the Swedish League. I mean it's, it's all pretty pathetic to be honest. And they should be walking the competition and, and they are. But yeah, you're right, the Champions League and the league position is far more important. And again, it's really hard to call. I mean they're unbeaten in the league since before the last international break, which feels like a long time ago now to me when they lost to Arsenal. But they're not convincing by any means. You know, you look at sort of recent results that 2, 2 at home to IPS which felt like a disaster. You know, they got the, okay, they got, got the last minute winner at Fulham last week and then sort of struggled at home to Everton, but did beat them 1 nil. But then again, sorry to bang on about fixtures but that is what it's all about now. And you look, they got Liverpool next and are they playing Liverpool at a good time? Because Liverpool have now won the league and have nothing else to play for. They've also got Man United coming up and then they've got these two horrific away games at Newcastle and Nottingham Forest and that's going to be a true test of their mettle. You know, we see, okay, they've got some decent results in the league recently, but not against good teams. Okay, they've got some decent results in the Conference League, but not against good teams. They've gone through so much sort of change and upheaval in the last few months and the fans are not happy. And it's all going to be on the line away at Newcastle and away at Forest. You know, can they step up? Can Cole Palmer finally find some form? Can Jackson continue, you know, his recent sort of slight improvement in goal scoring record? There are so many. There are so many sort of variables with Chelsea. Again, it's almost impossible to call, but whatever happens, I mean, God, he's got such a huge job in the summer because it feels like. It feels like the direction of travel is down. You know, no one seems to be happy there. They're not enjoying the football and the performances aren't great, but yet they're still there in fifth place. And like you say, maybe the know how of a lot of their players will count for something and just about get them over the line. And obviously for many reasons, it's vitally important that, that they do that.
- [38:03]
Adam Leventhal
Just a final quick word on, on Chelsea. I know you said that, you know, things are looking unsettled and they always are, and there are fans protests against the ownership and we know that, but in a way, you know, we obviously started talking about Manchester United and Tottenham in this podcast, but if Chelsea can go from finishing 12th two seasons ago to sixth last season, pick up a European trophy and then qualify for, at the very least the Europa League via the league, that's. That's progress of sorts, isn't it? We should give them a little bit of slack that they have. They've moved away. They've done what Manchester United and Tottenham need to do over the next season or so.
- [38:48]
Timothy Spears
Yeah, I agree, I agree. From sort of our point of view. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. The problem is from the Chelsea fans point of view who are watching this football every single week and just. And really not enjoying it. And there's so much discontent from the stands and that may be what ultimately cost Maresca's job. And then, and then they're potentially going to take a couple of steps back and have to start all over again. But I agree with you. If you look at all the big spenders from last summer, they're all almost in the relegation zone. You know, West Ham, Spurs, Man United, they all spent huge sums of money last summer. Brighton spent an absolute fortune. And their fans aren't happy either. They're in sort of ninth place. But Chelsea, you've got to say outperforming all of those teams by a distance. I think Maresca deserves more credit than what he gets. Again, I think he's someone who probably needs another transfer window or two to really get the team what he wants. And he doesn't want this football as it is, this sort of dithering nervously playing out from the back and ponderous and slow. He wants it to be quicker. He wants it to click. I think if it does click, there's a real high ceiling for Chelsea. So he, he deserves, in my opinion, absolutely deserves another season and some backing and let's see what he can do with this team because there's such a high tariff for his style of football. However, I'm not the one watching it every week and ultimately that that might be his downfall.
- [40:09]
Adam Leventhal
Tim, thank you very much as always. Don't forget you can follow all of the action, the reaction, the analysis of the Premier League games this weekend, all the ups and downs elsewhere as well in the UK and in Europe on the Athletic website and the app. And we will be back on Monday.
- [40:29]
Timothy Spears
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.