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- [00:00]
Nadia Yada
Welcome to Nadia Yada island, next on.
- [00:04]
Diana Rossini
Metro's Nadia Yada island podcast.
- [00:06]
Matt Slater
I almost fainted when the four new bombshells arrived.
- [00:09]
Diana Rossini
Four free Samsung Galaxy A16.5G phones at Metro.
- [00:13]
Nadia Yada
No way.
- [00:14]
Matt Slater
And finding out the fourth line is free, things got heated.
- [00:18]
Ayo Akimwaleere
That's wild.
- [00:18]
Diana Rossini
Join Metro and get four free Samsung 5G phones only at Metro plus tax.
- [00:24]
Matt Slater
Bring four numbers and an ID and sign up for any Metro Flex plan not available currently at T Mobile or have been with Metro in the past 180 days.
- [00:31]
Diana Rossini
Hey, everybody, it's Diana Rossini from the Scoop City Podcast. It's super bowl week and the eyes of the world are on New Orleans to see if the Chiefs can make history or if the Eagles are ready to reign on their parade. Myself, Robert Mays, Derek Claassen and a whole host of NFL reporters and special guests will be live streaming every day from Radio Row covering all the buildup to Sunday showdown. Join us on the Athletic HQ YouTube account every day at 5:00pm Eastern Time. It's not to be missed.
- [01:03]
Nadia Yada
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:08]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleere. Whether it's financial mismanagement, questionable ownership or lack of accountability, football in England has faced some huge challenges in recent years, which is why the British government wants to appoint an independent regulator. So why are the Premier League and its member clubs unhappy with the plan? And are the concerns of fans really at the heart of all of this, as all sides claim? Here for today, we have our senior football news reporter, Matt Slater. Shortly we'll be joined by Phil Haim, as well as the UK Secretary of State for Culture, Media and sports, Labour MP Lisa Nandi. All right, Matt, before Lisa joins us, let's get into this football governance. Bill, can you remind listeners what it's all about and also why it's so important?
- [02:03]
Matt Slater
Well, let's do a bit of history. So go back to 2021 European Super League. That, I suppose, was the kind of final straw for this. Although conversations around how football in our country is run basically had been out there, particularly around the number of clubs that go into administration. Some of the poor owners clubs have had. So those conversations were there. But the Super League crisis, I think, really kind of grabbed people. This sort of breakaway threat, this existential threat to English football. And I think crucially, it got Boris Johnson's attention. Now, Boris Johnson, like him or loathe him, is a populist. You know, he saw this was an issue. He had this idea that by doing something in football, it was an opportunity to win votes in the north of England, he in Labour strongholds. So he often talks about this red wall, right, can we smash the red wall? So he alighted, I think, on this idea. And he talked about tackling the Super League threat with a legislative bomb. Anyway, the whole thing evaporated pretty fast within 48 hours. Fans did it, not Boris Johnson. You know, fans voted with their feet. The clubs bottled it and we move on. But the genie was out of the bottle in terms of governance. And he set up something called a fan led review. He got the former sports minister, a very respected politician called Tracy Crouch, to do a really good consultation piece where she went around the country. They had a sort of great and good type ball, but it was fan led. The idea was, we're gonna go talk to fans. And she did that work. I think it was about four, five, six months worth of work. She published this big paper at the end, her paper, I think it was November 2021. Lots of recommendations. The key recommendation was football needs an independent reg, statutory regulator that would have real power and it should focus on financial sustainability, the protection of club heritage. So that's this idea of things like, you know, when Hull City's owner tried to change the name to Hull Tigers, when Cardiff's owner tried to change the color to red because red is lucky in Asian cultures, things like that, the moving of grounds, basic sort of fan engagement, fan consultation stuff. We then had a year or so of consultation. The Conservative government said, okay, yeah, we're going to run with that. They published the white paper. We get to 23, they say, yeah, we're going to do it. Obviously, Johnson's gone, Truss is gone. We've got Rishi Sunak, football fan, Southampton fan, he says, we're going to do it. They proposed a bill at the beginning of last year, but they ran out of time. They ran out of parliamentary time. It had started its passage through the House of Commons anyway, election last summer, Conservatives out, Labour in Labour had always supported the governance bill, as did the Liberal Democrats. So it had cross party support. So it was no real surprise that Labour immediately picked it up in August or so and said, yeah, we're going to do it. And they've tweaked it a little bit. We're going to get into the little tweaks they've made. But it's essentially, you know, 90, 95% of it is the same bill. And it has. Instead of going through the House of Commons first, they're going through the House of Laws. They're just doing it the other way around. So we've had, you know, two, three months, slightly longer, I think, than the Labour government were expecting of debates in the House of Lords. The Premier League hates the idea. You know, they've sort of been kind of dragging and screaming and, you know, they sort of say they accept it, but then they keep fighting it. So there's a bit of a rear guard action going on. The English Football League like it. The FAA don't think it liked it initially, but saw the direction of travel and as kind of backed away. And I think it has the support of fan groups, particularly, you know, really engaged fans, you know, that, you know, like on trusts and what have you. So that's, that's it. It's pretty much going to happen because labor has an enormous majority. It's really what this thing will look like once it's been pushed and pulled and poked through Parliament and then really how it gets going. I think that's the really interesting thing for me and that's what I really want to talk to Elise and Andy about. You know, how is this going to work in practice? Because you' now you've done this thing or you're going to do this thing, you're sort of saying, football, here you go. This is a complete revolution, but we don't want it to be too revolutionary. Away we go.
- [06:28]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Right, let's get into this. Joining us now we have Phil Hay, our lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter. And it's also a pleasure to welcome UK Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, Lisa Nandi. Now, Lisa, before we get into this, this is a football podcast. You can't come on the football podcast without me asking you where your allegiances lie. Who do you follow? I know you're from Manchester.
- [06:50]
Nadia Yada
Well, I was born in Manchester, but I live in Wigan and Wigan Athletic is my team. Although I have to give a shout out to the Rugby League. I know you're a football podcast. Wigan warriors, greatest rugby league club in the history of the game. But, you know, you know that my team is one of those that has had real challenges over the last few years. We've got a great owner now who's investing in the club, looking after the town and the community. But it hasn't always been the case. And it's a lot of the reason why I'm so passionate about the importance of football to towns like mine and putting fans back at the heart of the game. Because for too long my experience has been that fans are just treated as a Nuisance, when actually they're the reason that English football is one of the most successful things in the world.
- [07:31]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, well, let's get into it then because, you know, I guess there are a lot of people listening to this, asking in terms of the involvement in government in football. The English game, as you've mentioned, has been around for over 150 years. Some might say it's been incredibly profitable and some might also say it's been pretty well run. Why does the government need to get involved? And also what are you looking to fix? You've mentioned fans there. What else are you looking to fix?
- [07:54]
Nadia Yada
Well, you know, I could answer that in one word. Berry, my stepdad, was a lifelong season ticket holder at Gig Lane. He thankfully never lived to see the the collapse of Berry fc, although they've since worked so damn hard to re emerge. And it's been wonderful to watch. But you know, Bury, Bolton, Wigan, Oldham, Reading, we've just had so many examples in recent years of clubs whose very existence is under threat. Real concerns about the sustainability of the whole pyramid. And you know, I speak as somebody whose club has been in the Premier League has benefited enormously from that. We're so proud of it. We beat Man City to win the FA cup, we then got relegated, sadly. But you know, we've been in the championship, we've been in League one, we've seen it from lots of different sides. But the truth is that football's an ecosystem and we have to make sure of three things. The first is that fans have to be at the centre of the game and of their clubs. And too often the experience for fans is that when it comes to things like team colours, heritage stadium and decisions about things like ticketing, they're just an afterthought. The second is that we want to make sure that every club has a decent business plan and is sustainable and we want to make sure that every club has a decent owner. And those three things I think have to be non negotiable for football. Many clubs are already doing them, but not all. And that's what this bill is all about. That's why we need a regulator. We think football could get its own house in order. We hope that it will. And the whole point of this is to incentivise it to do so. But if they can't, there has to be a backstop for fans so that someone can intervene and make sure that we don't have episodes like what happened to Berry ever again.
- [09:34]
Matt Slater
Hi Lisa, it's Matt Slater here. I'm sure. Like me, you've been enjoying the almost daily article in the broadsheets from Premier League club executives and their lawyers about how much they dislike the idea of a regulator. I was wondering if I could just pick you up on one of their main complaints and that's around this idea that they haven't been properly consulted. So is that true? And then as a follow up, I think there's a specific complaint that post the change of governments, they have made requests to meet you and the Sports Minister, Stephanie Peacock, and those requests have been declined. Is that true?
- [10:12]
Nadia Yada
It's completely untrue. There is not a shred of truth in that. So first of all, when I was appointed seven months ago after we won the election, one of the first meetings that I had was with the Premier League executives and then a meeting with Premier League clubs. I said to them at the time, this is not just a one off. We want to work with you closely like we will with the EFL and the National League and others as the bill goes through Parliament. And I've had regular meetings as a staff, our sports minister with them ever since. Last week I was in Manchester with the Premier League Executive. We did a full day of meetings with clubs from the Premier League. Some of them are in a very different place to others, I think it's fair to say there are some that are very supportive of the bill. There are some that have practical, pragmatic concerns that they want to iron out about the existing legislation. And then there are others that are just completely opposed. All those views are legitimate. The door has been open. We've met with every single club that has wanted to and that offer remains on the table. And I have to say, in fairness, the last Conservative government did the same. The thing is, Matt, this has been going on for four years now and in that time far too many clubs, you know, whether it's Morecambe and Reading, that find themselves in a very uncertain position at the moment, or my club, Wigan Athletic, which went through two cycles in which we were just days away from, from losing a hundred year club that is part of our community, part of our civic inheritance. We've just had too much of this. And we made a promise to fans, as did the Conservatives at the last election in our manifestos, that we would make good on the fan led review and we absolutely intend to do it. But that doesn't mean that we won't listen to the fullest range of views and make sure that we don't get this right. This is a once in a Lifetime opportunity to put fans at the heart of the game and ensure the sustainability of the whole football pyramid for years and years to come. And so our door is absolutely 100% open.
- [12:05]
Matt Slater
Good to hear. Well, another one of their complaints is that although they do like to include parachute payments in this, they like to make the point that they're already pretty generous, that no one shares as much as the Premier League does. Is that true? And if so, you know, if it's not true, you know, how much would be enough?
- [12:24]
Nadia Yada
We don't have a view about that as a government. When we started this conversation, the sort of general sense was, why is government getting involved? The only reason that the last government got involved and we have now, is because we want fans back at the heart of the game and we want the sustainability of this game. And if football can't agree itself, then there has to be somebody who can step in and get that right. And that's the regulator. The intention is that they never have to do it. If football can reach an agreement, then they're out of the picture, they don't have to get involved. And so our call is for football to be able to do that. And it's not for us to determine what agreement they reach between the leagues, that's for them to agree. But I would just say this as well, that when the Premier League was founded in 1992, the gap between the leagues was about 11 million. And now, you know, quite a few years later, but it's about 3 billion. That has prompted concerns about sustainability further down the the pyramid. What the regulator will do once they're established, once this law passes, is that they will conduct a state of the game report that will look at the sustainability of the whole pyramid. How do we protect the Premier League as one of the crown jewels in this country? One of our great success stories, how do we make sure that we protect that whilst also making sure that you have sustainability further down the pyramid? At the moment, to be honest, when I sit in rooms with different groups in football, it feels like sitting on different planets. We're just having completely different conversations from the next room that I go into. And part of the thinking of the last government behind having a State of the Game report is that everyone will start with the same facts and the same understanding of where football is. I think that can only be a good thing, but it's not for us as a government then to tell them what they need to do about it.
- [14:09]
Matt Slater
Good. Just. Just. There's a lot to get through, but I just want to just clarify, because, again, this is a specific complaint from certain Premier League clubs that the regulator or the threat of regulation has actually prevented the EFL and the Premier League doing a deal. Do you agree or disagree with that premise?
- [14:28]
Nadia Yada
I totally disagree. I mean, the reason that we've ended up in this situation is because the EFL and the Premier League couldn't come to an agreement themselves if they'd been able to do so in the last few years. I'm not sure that the last government would have ended up in a position where they felt that they needed this aspect of regulation, where you have a backstop, where somebody can actually intervene and make sure that there is an agreement that is reached. I should say as well that what the regulator doesn't do is come in and make their own decision about the fair settlement between leagues. The regulator will only act and get involved if one of the leagues decides to trigger that involvement. And at that point, it's for the two leagues to put their own offers on the table and the regulator will choose. Now, the idea behind that is that it incentivises the two leagues to put reasonable offers on the table because the most reasonable is likely to be accepted. So the hope is that what that will do is bring them to the table, get them to put reasonable offers on and they'll meet in the middle. But if they can't, the fans have to have some kind of protection, and that's what this is about.
- [15:35]
Phil Hay
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akimolere.
- [15:43]
Ayo Akimwaleere
You are listening to the Athletic FC podcast. We're here with Lisa Nandi, the UK Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, discussing the football governance bill. Now, Phil, I want to bring you in here because, you know, as someone who's covered football in the EFL for a number of years, one of the most contentious issues outside the Premier League is the matter of parachute payments, and we were just talking about it previously. Talk us a little bit more about how you feel about that, Phil.
- [16:11]
Lisa Nandi
They're not the sole cause of disparity between the Premier League and the efl, but they do contribute heavily to it. They're also a pretty established part of the game and it does feel as if the sport has kind of got used to the sense of them being there and that disparity always being an issue. They're not a free pass to promotion from the championship either. I think it's important to say that. But if you look at the division currently, the top three, Leeds, Bunley and Sheffield United, all have parachute payments behind them and therefore have far bigger budgets and far bigger wage bills. And it is definitely a factor in how the table shapes up every year. And my understanding as well is that it is a bit of a bone of contention when it comes to a financial settlement between the EFL and the Premier League. Lisa, what I wanted to ask about this was the change that Labour have made to the original Conservative bill by referencing parachute payments in the bill and almost putting them under the or within the remit of the regulator. Why was this done? And since they do distort the competition to such an extent, why isn't the legislation seeking to remove them? I wonder in particular what the EFL make of the fact that they are referenced in there.
- [17:19]
Nadia Yada
So all we've done is get rid of a carve out in the last government's bill that would have prevented the regulator from looking at parachute payments. We thought that was really anachronistic. It didn't make sense because, like you said, parachute payments have a big impact on the game. And there are different views about that. I mean, I can only talk from the perspective of my own club, Wigan Athletic, which benefited from parachute payments, helped us into the Premier League, that then we benefited from parachute payments on the way out because it smoothed the glide path back into the championship. But also, as a club that then found ourselves towards the bottom of the championship and then in League one, we're sort of subject to that cliff edge where it then becomes harder to be competitive. So we've seen it from every single angle. I think what's beyond dispute is that they have an impact on the game. And so we want the regulator, when they're looking at the state of the game, we want them to be to consider the impact, good and bad, that parachute payments have for clubs. We want them to be able to interrogate whether they exert some kind of inflationary impact, where people are having to pay more and more and you get wage inflation and other issues. And we want them to be able to look at that as part of the deal that is struck between different leagues, because, like you said, there are very different views about the levels at which they should be set. What I haven't heard anybody say, say in the discussions that I've had with the efl, the Premier League, the National League and others is that parachute payments should be abolished. And so we're looking at the legislation that we've got in front of us at the moment to make sure that's absolutely clear on the face of the bill. We're not asking the regulator to decide whether parachute payments should exist or not. But we do think it's right that they should be able to consider them as part of the broader set of forces that shape the game and the business model as it currently stands. It just seems to me a perfectly reasonable tweak to the bill that will enable them to do a better job.
- [19:14]
Lisa Nandi
Is it your view that they do need to exist? Because I think even for people who criticise them, it's very easy to see the pressure that comes on clubs who are relegated from the Premier League. And I guess the financial state of the Premier League is not their creation, it's not their decision. That safety net almost feels like it does need to exist to some degree.
- [19:32]
Nadia Yada
I think so. I mean, certainly from the experience that I had at Wigan Athletic, one of the things the Premier League has said to us, and the EFL agrees with, I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think they've been crystal clear with us on this point, is that part of the reason that the Premier League is so successful is because you have the element of jeopardy. So, you know, clubs that are at the top of the Premier League are as supportive of parachute payments, even though they're very unlikely to benefit from them as clubs at the bottom of the Premier League and the the top of the championship, because it helps with that element of jeopardy. You get clubs able to move up and down. That increases the enjoyment of the game, not just for people here in the uk, but all over the world. So the debate that we're having is not about whether parachute payments should exist. I think we all agree that they can be an enormously helpful part of the game. The debate is what impact they have on the sustainability of the whole pyramid and whether we're currently getting that right or not.
- [20:25]
Matt Slater
Lisa, one of my concerns over the last few weeks and months really has been around who is going to lead this thing, because it struck me that we need almost a bit of a unicorn. We need the most amazing communicator, someone to be able to do what you're doing today. And thank you, but to daily hit back at whatever's printed in the papers, but someone who really understands regulation, really understands football, kind of gets fans concerns. That's quite a package. And I see that the pro rata salary for the chair is £130,000 a year. Okay, that's a lot of money. But for all those skills, it seems like someone's going to have to sort of really want to do this. And I also See some of the salaries for the lawyers that will work within the regulator. Again, it's good money, but is it as good as these guys could earn in commercial law? So I just worry about who is going to run this. When are we going to get them? What, you know, what type of person is it?
- [21:28]
Nadia Yada
Are you. You were playing Matt.
- [21:32]
Ayo Akimwaleere
I wouldn't put it past him. I wouldn't put it past Lisa.
- [21:34]
Matt Slater
Was it that obvious?
- [21:36]
Ayo Akimwaleere
He's got his CV waiting right here.
- [21:38]
Matt Slater
Lisa, I've been writing about this for four years.
- [21:40]
Lisa Nandi
I'm definitely not applying for it, but I would maybe just add to that as well. Lisa, does it need to be a football person, given that the breadth of football club, not just you, do you play very well? I've seen the breadth of knowledge doesn't need to just cover the English game, it needs to cover the European game, the world game. And it is phenomenally complex, you know, both in terms of the way it's structured, but also legally.
- [22:01]
Nadia Yada
Yeah. So I'll just give you a bit of a sort of insight into what I'm thinking about. The person that we need first is I think there'll be no shortage of people who want to do this. You know, if you look across this country, people absolutely love this game. They care about it, they care about its future. So I don't think there'll be a problem with people applying and I don't think that the salary is an issue. I think 130 grand is more than reasonable. And I also think that the people who will come forward to do this will have a passion around it. I'm looking for somebody who really does care about putting fans back at the heart of this game. That is the whole inception behind the fan led review. And it's really important that they come from that starting point. You know, we have fans in the Premier League, we have fans in the championship, in all of the different leagues, League 1, League 2, and they all matter. And so I want someone who puts the fans first, sees the importance of fans at the center of the game, who is therefore interested in the whole pyramid, not just one part of the pyramid, and wants every part of that pyramid to succeed. Looking for somebody who can do regulation well, and by well, I mean light touch. We've deliberately conceived of this regulator as a backstop, not a front stop. So the idea is that football is incentivised to come to its own agreement. We think that is far, far preferable than having to have a regulator intervene. But somebody who is able to navigate the complexities around that incentivise football to come to its own agreement and get involved at the right moment and in the right way in order to smooth that. And then I think the final thing for me, and sort of Matt was getting at this before, is that it's got to be somebody who can command the confidence of the widest range of people. Like I said before, when I sit in different rooms with different clubs, it sometimes feels like just having completely different conversations and being on a completely different planet. And it's frustrating, really, because I go from room to room having these completely opposing conversations. The regulator is going to have to be somebody who can not only go from room to room and have those conversations, but can bring people together. And I think that person is out there. I absolutely do. We're advertising at the moment for the chair. We've done a shortlisting process. Getting that position right will be really important because that person will obviously play the critical role in appointing the regulator itself. There will be a board drawn from a wide range of views that will mean that we make sure that we have those checks and balances on the board and we have people who are willing to challenge and to make sure that we stay true to the original spirit of how this whole family review was conceived. So I'm pretty confident that we will get there and we're not delaying this. We're moving at pace. But obviously the slight complication is that the bill has been slightly bogged down in the House of Lords. We want to get that moving and we want to make sure that we can get the regulator in place as soon as possible. I think fans have just waited far too long for this.
- [24:57]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Yeah, Lisa, something I'm interested in is the idea of who owns these football clubs. I mean, you've seen the Premier League now, global stakeholders in many respects. And I guess one of the biggest concerns for fans and also for calls for an independent regulator is around the custodianship of football clubs. You mentioned it right at the top there. And I want to go to, you know, Wigan Athletic, your team, you know, in your constituency, you know, they've been through two ownership changes since the outbreak of COVID and the Pandemic. You know, how will an independent regulator then improve the process of vetting and monitoring football club ownership to the leagues themselves?
- [25:34]
Nadia Yada
Well, it introduces a better owner and director's test so that fans can have more confidence in that process. One of the things that happened to us at Wigan Athletic was that we were sold by Dave Whelan, who'd been our Longstanding owner. You know, he's a local guy, made good. There aren't many billionaires knocking around around Wigan, but we managed to find one and he invested in us for a very long time. But when he eventually sold up, we were sold to somebody overseas who then transferred the ownership to a new owner. It was approved by the efl and the same day we were put straight into administration. I think one of the football correspondents said it was one of the most outlandish stories ever seen in a. In a sport that is frequently beset by outlandish stories. And still to this day, nobody really knows why that happened. There were lots of rumors that it was to hide a gambling debt. We just don't know. But what we do know is the club was sold for tens of millions of pounds and then put straight into administration. I never want to see this happening to people again. So part of the core inception of the bill is about having a proper owners and directors test. There will be a power for the regulator also to be able to intervene retrospectively, but we're being very cautious about that because what we don't want to do is to deter people from coming forward to own our clubs. And so we've been working with the Premier League and others to make sure that we absolutely get that right, so that we're not deterring investments, so that we're providing clarity and certainty for potential owners about the process that they'll go through and the standards that they'll have to meet. And we're tightening that up at the moment. We get those concerns and we think that's absolutely right. But what is non negotiable is that we've had too many instances, like in the case of Bury fc, where you've had people owning football clubs who, frankly, my experiences, they often treat them as playthings when actually, like you said, these are part of our civic inheritance. They're handed down through generations. The chair of my supporters club went to the football with her dad, he went with his dad, she takes her kids. Like you said, the owners are the custodians, but they have a duty to hand them on in as good or better shape than to the next generation than they inherited them. And at the moment we've just seen too many instances where that's not the case.
- [27:53]
Lisa Nandi
Why will your owners and directors test all the tweaks to it be better than the existing one?
- [27:58]
Nadia Yada
It basically tilts the balance in favour of fans so that, you know, for example, you'd have to meet a threshold, right? But you could trigger the regulator if they believe that you'd made a serious case, you could trigger the regulator to look at an existing owner, for example. Wouldn't necessarily result in action. They would have to firstly believe that a reasonable case had been made and that there were significant concerns that met a threshold, but they could then intervene if that was clear that that was the case and investigate the ownership. We think that's an important safeguard for fans that doesn't currently exist. And this is not about government deciding who is a fit and proper owner. This is about an independent regulator being established who can hold that right for fans in trust. So that there is a counterbalance to what I saw happen at Wigan Athletic. When we were transferred ownership, the fans didn't know anything about that deal. We couldn't possibly have intervened. The deal was done, the ownership was transferred. There was no right to challenge. And then, of course, we were put into administration and then we lost all power completely over the process. We couldn't even find out what was happening behind the scenes in those negotiations. It just seems to me that that is not right and had too many examples of that. You know, there's a woman from Sheffield United supporters club the other day who was saying to me when I met with fans groups that you wake up every day and you just wonder whether your club's going to exist or whether it's even going to feel like your club. And that's the experience of too many football fans in this country. It's got to change.
- [29:33]
Matt Slater
Lisa, just another quick clarification. Corner. One of the changes between the Conservative bill and your bill is that you have dropped that slightly bizarre line about the regulator having to keep in mind, kind of UK foreign policy goals. You've dropped that. Why?
- [29:50]
Nadia Yada
Yeah, because we want there to be one test and there was concern that that would be discriminatory, that essentially what it would allow the regulator to do was to pick and choose who they liked and who they didn't. We don't want to deter owners and investors from coming forwards. Now, I had the example in Wigan of we were bought by a Bahraini family who for quite. We ran into problems towards the end, but for quite some time proved to be very committed to the club. If they hadn't bought us, we probably would have had real problems finding a buyer at that stage. And so we were very grateful to them for doing that. What we don't want is the regulator, say, being hampered by a restriction that says that if a government comes in and says we don't want good relations with the country that suddenly you're saying to those owners, right, the government says that they're not particularly keen on this country and therefore this deal is now scuppered and potentially scuppered. Retrospectively, we think that could have a really detrimental effect on football as a whole. So we've got rid of that. We've made it really simple and properly independent. So the regulator is not following government. The regulator is making decisions that they believe are in the interests of football, not the government.
- [31:08]
Phil Hay
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. acamolera.
- [31:14]
Ayo Akimwaleere
Well, let's move on, Lisa, because look, the bigger conversation is FIFA and UEFA, who both oppose government intervention in football. Now the question is, how does this impact the independent football regulator's position in that respect?
- [31:31]
Nadia Yada
So we are completely confident in the position of FIFA and UEFA in relation to this bill. We've worked with them very closely and in fact, you know, I was talking to Tracey Crouch the other day, who was the sports minister in the last government that ever since the inception of the fan led review, both she and the last government worked very closely with them as well. Because no government will ever do anything that would put at risk our participation in international competitions. We've spoken to FIFA and UEFA constantly throughout this process. We're really confident that where we are with the bill, with its very light touch system of regulation, where the independent regulator is a backstop, not a front stop, where football is incentivised to come to its own agreement, we're very, very confident that we're in the right place and that we're all in agreement on that and that there are no risks associated with it. If there were, we would act, but we genuinely believe and been reassured by them that there aren't.
- [32:29]
Lisa Nandi
Will FIFA and UEFA effectively have to sign this off in the end, Lisa? Because if you were to fall foul of this stance that, you know, no political interference in association football, the regulator would have big problems from the start.
- [32:41]
Nadia Yada
Well, they don't have to sign it off. But in the same way as we're listening carefully to the efl, the Premier League, the National League, we're also listening very carefully to FIFA and UEFA, because there are lots of different moving parts to this and different parts of football, whether it's international, national, very local, grassroots. Football is an ecosystem. And there's two things that we're trying to do. The first is to make sure that every part of the pyramid is successful and sustainable. And the second is we're trying to make sure that the rules that are applied are consistent so that we're not introducing a new set of rules that say the Premier League have to abide by FIFA rules, UEFA rules, regulator rules and Premier League rules. That just wouldn't work. It wouldn't make sense. It'd be far too onerous for football clubs. They need to be very agile at every part of the pyramid. So we're trying to achieve those two things, and we're confident that we're in the right place. Doesn't mean we might not make some tweaks to the bill over the next few weeks as it passes from the Lords to the Commons. And there are very strong views in the House Commons as well about this. But we're confident that we're largely in the right space and we're talking to them constantly to get it right.
- [33:55]
Matt Slater
Lisa, we've been talking, talking for 25 minutes and we haven't mentioned the Football association, the governing body. Now, the fact that you, the last government was in everyone's manifesto, that's an indictment, isn't it? That's an indictment of our governing body.
- [34:09]
Nadia Yada
I don't think so. I don't think you can trace the challenges that have emerged in the game back to one body or even one era. I think these challenges have arisen over a significant amount of time in which many things have changed. If you look at the importance, for example, of broadcasting and broadcasting rights that they've had on the game, and the way in which that's changed the business model and changed some of the disparities between the different leagues, there are lots and multiple ways in which this has emerged. I don't think you can lay the blame at one single party's door. What I can say to you about the Football association is that I've had a really positive and constructive relationship with them since. Since we were appointed. I think they want this bill to succeed, I think because they want football to succeed. And they've been really constructive partners in bringing together different parts of the footballing world in order to help us make that happen. They're also tremendously committed to the grassroots, which is something we haven't talked about either. But obviously, you know, the key for me is that kids growing up in towns like Wigan don't just look at the lionesses and see that incredible success and think, I can only dream of doing that, that they grow up knowing that that could be them, that they don't just have dreams, they have a plan. And that means investment in grassroots facilities. It means clubs at every part of the pyramid being able to do well, because often through our academy in Wigan. That's how they get their first real shot. And the Football association has been genuinely brilliant at helping and supporting us with that, as we've announced more investment into the grassroots. I honestly think we've got to a place with this bill where there will always be some people who are deeply unhappy. But the vast majority of people believe that we're in the right space. They probably all have slightly different views about where they would have landed, but I think we've ended up with something that is good for football as a whole and most of all is good for fans.
- [36:00]
Lisa Nandi
Just before you go, I thought we should really broach the subject of Manchester United's plans to redevelop the stadium at Old Trafford, specifically because your colleague Rachel Reeves, and for anybody listening who doesn't know she's the. The government's Chancellor of the Exchequer in.
- [36:15]
Nadia Yada
The uk, he's the mummy person.
- [36:17]
Lisa Nandi
She is indeed. And she's effectively promised support for the project. I get that it's early days and a long, long way from knowing what this project would look like, but what do you think that support would consist of? And I think the more crucial question that people are asking, will any public money be used to develop the stadium itself? And in the view of the government, should it be used for the stadium itself?
- [36:40]
Nadia Yada
Well, we're open minded in terms of the growth potential of that site. So there are two things I wanted to say about this, actually. One is that there is obviously enormous economic potential in that redevelopment. I was talking to Steve Rotherham the other day, who's the mayor of Merseyside, and he was saying to me, you get people all over the world who came through the docks at Liverpool, who have emigrated all over the world, who have a deep connection to Liverpool because of its music scene and because of its football club, and that is worth so much to our country because of the success of the football club. And Manchester United is another good example of that, of where you've got enormous growth potential in the UK economy and the government wants to back those projects. We make no apology for it, but equally, we're interested in towns like Wigan. I know I keep using Wigan as an example, but it's just because I live there and I know it best. It's not the only one. But at the moment, Mike Danson, our owner, is investing and expanding around the area around the stadium. That's going to have a huge economic benefit for Wigan. It's not going to be in the same league as what's happening at Old Trafford, but In terms of the game changer for our local economy, it's going to be transformational. So we're interested in the growth potential. We haven't ruled anything out. We're talking to mayors and councils and to the football clubs themselves about those projects. But we're also one of the ways that we know we can help is unblocking the planning restrictions that often hold those projects back or bog them down for years and years in unnecessary red tape. We've brought forward huge changes to the planning system that mean that these big major infrastructure projects can really get off the ground. Because often what we find is that investors come forward, they want to invest, but by the time we've gone through that process, the whole thing's fallen apart again. You know, Covid was a really good example of that, where we saw lots of projects derailed that could have already happened. So we're unblocking the things that stand in the way of investors being able to invest and we think that will crowd in more private sector investment that'll have a major impact on the whole UK economy, but particular in that area of Manchester which needs the investment and deserves it.
- [38:49]
Ayo Akimwaleere
All right, let's send it there. Lisa, look, this has been an absolute joy and it's rare we have a member of Parliament ever on this show. So thanks for a lot of the clarification and good luck to Wigan as well in League one. But before you go, Matt Slaters wants to know what your email address is, so can get your CV over to you for that, honestly, and Matt and Phil as well. Thank you so much for joining us. Adam Laventhal and the team will be with you tomorrow. Thank you so much for listening.
- [39:17]
Phil Hay
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavroo and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletes Athletic Podcast for free Search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
- [39:38]
Nadia Yada
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.