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- [00:00]
Ayo Akimwaleri
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform, but behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic go to shopify.com TheAThletic shopify.com TheAthLetic with an hour before boarding, there's only one place to go the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. There you can recharge before the big adventure or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You could recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar. Whatever you're in the mood for, find the detail that moves you with curated touches at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the Club Chase. Make more of what's yours. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.
- [02:01]
Mark Carey
JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.
- [02:04]
Phil Hay
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- [03:00]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [03:07]
Michael Cox
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. There's a new wonderkid on the block and his name is Florian Vertz. Pass one, pass two Ver this man is a sensation. Florian Vert has established himself as the man to carry the creative responsibility for Bayer Leverkusen, but how does he measure up against the world's best in his position? And is there a danger in becoming over reliant on a player to make things happen? In with us today we have the Athletics Phil Hay and we've also got Mark Carey as well. So the knockout phases of the European club competitions are in full swing this week. And speaking of Talisman, last night we saw Martin Odegaard help fire Arsenal to a resounding 71 victory away at PSV.
- [03:54]
Mark Carey
Odegaard in no mood to relent. It's Odegaard.
- [03:59]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Benitez couldn't keep it out.
- [04:02]
Mark Carey
Arsenal have six, Odegaard has two.
- [04:05]
Michael Cox
Phil so if we're talking Talisman and Arsenal don't have Bukaya Saka right now, surely Odegaard last night is illustrating this very point, a player that when in form really helps the team ticket.
- [04:18]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I think that's definitely true, although I am slightly inclined to look at Arsenal in isolation when it comes to Odegaard. And also I'm not entirely sure that as impressive as he is, and I'm a big Odegaard fan, that he's necessarily quite reached Talisman levels in the way that say, someone like Mo Salah has or other players that we'll discuss. Virtu, who you mentioned, Arsenal's recruitment over the past couple of years has been very defensive, paid a lot of attention to defenders, specifically more holding midfielders than attacking in options and as everybody knows, kind of short in the in the number nine position. It's where a lot of the money's gone and I think it's come over time to look like a mistake or to have created a bit of an imbalance. Without any doubt you have to factor injuries into that and every time we talk about Arsenal we come back to the number of players who are missing. But to look at the squad and to see how it stacks up at the moment, it does feel thinner when it comes to Arteta's attacking choices and attacking options. And I think that puts an enormous amount of pressure on somebody like Odegaard and makes you feel, I guess, the, the impact of his absence more than you should if, if the squad was slightly deeper or slightly more stacked where, where it needs to be. But yeah, you are going to miss a player like him. And, and I think, as much as I don't think that a talisman has to be an attacking player, an attacking asset, they are the ones that we, we tend to lean towards in, in these discussions. They are the ones that, that make it happen go ultimately, which is why things like the Ballon d'or tend to go more often than not to, to attacking players. So, yes, I think when you have somebody who does conduct the orchestra, if you want to put it like that, or is as influential as Odegaard can be, you are, you are going to miss him. But just to reiterate, I'm not totally convinced that you would have Odegaard as, as talisman at this stage.
- [06:12]
Mark Carey
I think it's interesting with Odegaard as well because of the absence of Saka and how, how strong his season was last season. This season, because of Saka's absence, there's times when he comes and sits between the centre backs to try and collect the ball as well. So in order for him to maybe have more of a talismanic role, he needs to almost be further forward to make sure he's repeatably in that position. But because of the attacking issues that Arsenal have, he's trying to do kind of everything at once. And of course, in order to be the most effective, you need to sort of stick to your strength. So it's maybe a slight indication that he wants to be more of the talisman, to be all over the pitch at any one time. But yeah, maybe he needs to almost rein it in a little bit, which is quite strange to say.
- [06:52]
Michael Cox
Well, we'll hear from our Arsenal writer Amy Lawrence on whether Odegaard indeed or Saka is Arsenal's talisman. But Mark, I mean, as you're talking, you recently tried to quantify the creative responsibility of footballers and came up with the talisman tax. Now, I found this article really, really interesting. Definitely a lot of people talking about it when you look at the comments. Now, we'll dive into some of the individuals a little later on, but firstly, tell us how you came up with this metric. And how you quantify it.
- [07:21]
Mark Carey
Well, it has its foundation in theft, I suppose about your mind. Yeah, which is quite normal for me to be honest from an ideas perspective. But it's taken from basketball as an idea and is based on the idea of usage rate, which is a well established metric in basketball. I didn't realize this, that it's been established for near enough 50 years, which shows just how strong their sort of analytics side is, I suppose. And in American sports, but essentially looks at the share of a team's possessions that a player uses while on the floor. So essentially looking at their shots, their free throws, their number of turnovers as a share of the team's total. And essentially looks to see which of those players are broadly the most ball dominant, how much they're contributing most to the outcomes of each possession. So in general, as a rule you expect your best players and your best shooters to have the highest usage rate. And that's been the case certainly in basketball for, for a while. And I wanted to look at this in a football sense and I essentially just rebranded the name and thought of it in a slightly different way. So this version looks at the number of times that a player had the last action within their team's sequence of possession. So essentially an indication of them trying to make something happen with a high risk, a high reward action, like a take on a progressive pass, a shot, whatever it may be. And essentially looking at which players are tasked with the biggest creative responsibility in their team, regardless of efficiency. And I looked at it just in terms of the attacking 2/3. So try to focus on who are. If we were to refine it even more, who is the attacking talisman for their respective team.
- [08:55]
Michael Cox
Interesting. I'm just thinking when he's saying that Phil, and he was talking about basketball in particular, you know, let's take that great Chicago Bulls team with Michael Jordan, Scott Pippin, Dennis Rodman and how actually in order for the Talisman then the guy that takes all those high risk shots and you know, creates something from nothing, Michael Jordan would be in that situation how much the Talisman also needs certain things to also work on the field. So they're able to execut properly and be as efficient as they can be.
- [09:22]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I think this is the point. I mean with people like Rodman it was the rebounding and I suppose we shouldn't go too deep into basketball here. But even latterly with the Bulls, people like Steve Kerr who could shoot three three pointers, it was so much about Jordan. But if you read any of the Books about the Bulls or follow the the Last Dance, the Netflix series. You'll find how influential people like Scotty Pippen and others were as well. And. And Phil Jackson, the coach. It's a. It's an entirely team package as. As it tends to be in football. But I was just gonna say as well, I don't think Mark should feel too guilty about the idea of theft, because I think historically the greatest works of art have always been stolen by people, haven't they? It's just human nature. But we devoted a recent podcast to Neymar and inevitably got on to talking about his stock in comparison to Messi and Ronaldo. And I was kind of making the point in that podcast that to be the best of the best, it's not just a matter of raw, hardcore ability. It always comes down to appetite and mentality, I guess, the drive to. To be the best of the best indefinitely, to never feel like enough's enough or that you're tired or fatigued by the constant strain of having to be aspirational. So I think the way I would categorize it is it's. It's not just players who do exceptional things for the level that they're at, but it's them having the ability to repeat over and over again, you know, so much more than flash in the pan, exceptional performances, like 1 in 4, 1 in 5, like, these are the footballers who deliver consistently and deliver when it matters, and also I think, deliver in a way that kind of makes you. Makes you sit up. Like the scenario that comes to mind for me always with this is Maradona at Napoli. It's not that that Napoli didn't have other quality players, but he brought an edge and an aura to them which made such a difference and got them to two scudettos. And I think when push comes to shove, you would say that the crop of footballers who are like, genuinely talismanic is genuinely tiny. And it seems to me to be as much an expression of mentality as it is purely about their. Their talent. Having said that, and I'm really interested in Mark's view on this. Do. Does a talisman exist at any level? Can it exist at any level of football? Does it just have to be the elite? Or is it more a case of who inspires a particular club? Because I kind of feel like it's the latter. You know, who is who. Who brings the magic to the club that, that you follow? And also I would. I would say again, I don't think it needs to be in an Attacking player, Manuel Neuer at Bayern Munich, guys like Andrea Pello, okay, play further forward. But Paolo Maldini, even English example, John Terry at Chelsea. It feels like it's about levels as much as anything else.
- [12:01]
Mark Carey
No, I agree. I think it's potentially more important as you go down the levels because there's probably a higher disparity between your best player and your worst player. So you want to make sure that you accentuate the strengths of the best player rather than at the very elite level. Pretty much everyone is that good that you can sort of spread it around a little bit more. So I think that it's, you know, you could think everyone's got their own example of it at maybe Sunday league level, playing 11 a side with, you know, your local team. I think that everyone's, Everyone knows that they try and get the ball to the best player as quickly and as best they can. It's essentially that really. I think it's interesting what you say as well, Phil, about the, almost like the game changing ability of certain players. And I did something fairly recently on, and it's again, probably based in theft, I think about it, but on Jude Bellingham and talking about how he's clutch player and this is again a bit of an Americanism, which, you know, is a bit controversial in the comments, but the idea that he steps up when, you know, when things are tight. And I, I looked at the share of game state changing goals that he scored in La Liga and the Champions League since he joined. So going from a losing position to a drawing position or a drawing position to a winning position. And of the goals that he scored for Real Madrid, at least he had the most game state changing goals. So he's the one who puffs his chest out when the chips are down and says, I'm going to be the one to go and get a goal. We saw it in the Euros in last summer as well. And he said, you know who else, he's the one who sort of steps up. So I think that's an element of talismanic behavior as well. But to broadly answer your question, Phil, I think that sort of trait can be relevant at any level. And arguably more important, the lower down.
- [13:34]
Michael Cox
You go, yeah, I'm interested when you're talking about that in something, you also were looking at expected threat and, you know, other things that players can offer a team that gives them that expected threat. Can you just give me a bit more clarification on that?
- [13:51]
Mark Carey
Yeah. And I think this kind of broadens out to when we're saying it doesn't always have to be an attacking player as well, because expected threat, and I mentioned it before in terms of this talisman tax, and I mentioned it was regardless of efficiency. And that's quite important as well, because the talisman tax that I've termed doesn't look at the efficiency of the player's actions, it just gives an indication of their involvement within the action. And often by looking at the list within the piece, you can see that they are also efficient with it, but it doesn't always have to be the case. So expected threat, and people who are familiar with analytics might see this as termed as possession value on ball value. They're essentially synonyms for the same thing that does look at the efficiency of measuring every player's action on the pitch shows how much a player is contributing towards their team's overall chances of scoring a goal. So it allows you to quantify every action on the pitch, good, bad or in between. So rather than just credit those who play the final pass for the assist and those who get the glory from the shots and the goals, you can actually measure potentially the value of a defensive midfielder who plays that line breaking pass in order for the player to run on, take on the player, pass it for someone else to score. The player who has the assist will get some credit. The player who scores the goal will get some credit. But importantly, by this measure, you can actually give some valuable credit to those players who actually progress the ball further up the sequence chain, if you like. So it could be a centre back who makes that crucial challenge to stop the counter attack, to then allow their team to go on and score themselves. Those sorts of things by this measure allows you to quantify that and it has its blind spots, but it can be a really useful measure to show and give a bit more of a well rounded view of a player's actions on the pitch.
- [15:29]
Michael Cox
Just thinking, actually, can that also be affected by whichever team you play in? So Declan Rice at West Ham, for instance, his role at West Ham, and you saw him driving forward, maybe getting the odd goal here or there as well, versus the position he's playing at Arsenal where he's not scoring that many goals. But you know, he offered, he carries the ball really well, you know, based on the system. Certain players might not work if they go somewhere else with a different system.
- [15:48]
Mark Carey
Yeah, no, I think this is hugely important. I think this is the, where the, the recruitment analysts really earn their money. Because you can look at something on a, on a list, on a spreadsheet of who's maybe showing up with the best numbers, but it's almost trying to predict. And there's more complex models that do this now. And I won't get too. I won't get too technical.
- [16:05]
Michael Cox
And it's also. With theft.
- [16:07]
Mark Carey
Yeah, exactly. But it sort of shows that you could see how scalable that player's skillset is, or you can predict how effective that player skill set will be if they go into a new system. If it's the West Ham to Arsenal example, there's a different play style there to be. Okay, well, there's potentially a leap of faith there to be. Like the skill set that we see in Declan Rice here. We can apply to Arsenal, but I suppose it links with the talisman tax as well. If a player is getting a lot of the ball and then they go to a team where they're in a bit more of an equitable sort of attacking sequence, shall we say, then they're going to. Maybe their numbers might drop off, but it doesn't mean that they're any less effective when they do get the ball. They're just having to spread out their sort of attacking potency. So I think it is a really good point. And that's, as I say, where the recruitment analysts really earn their money to work out how well a player will go from one team to another. Because they're only as good as the metrics within that team, within that system and what the manager is asking them to do. But if they've got a new manager asking to do different things, then you can't always guarantee it's going to be the same.
- [17:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
We definitely need a calculation for expected new metrics per season. I think expected threat is a new one for me. But there is a point to be made about it, I think, which is between that and also the data that is used in basketball and NBA to identify a talisman, are we kind of essentially saying that a talisman is basically an attacking asset that is most likely to be what your talisman is, given the numbers that are being used for.
- [17:33]
Mark Carey
This piece specifically, it was because I was looking at the attacking two thirds of the pitch, but I think that you can absolutely still have a talisman who's a defender, who creates that foundation to allow you to then operate in a certain way? I think that when I think of a talisman, and I've got to be careful not to double down too much on the term that I used here, but I think that to be a talisman, it's essentially a bit of a synonym for a Leader, someone who is going to, as I mentioned before, puff their chest out and that can be in any position at any one time. And you can also probably have multiple talisman within the team at any one point as well. So for the purpose of this exercise, within the piece, I kept it more towards the creative responsibility and the attacking side of things. But. But to your point, I think that you can absolutely have it as any player on the pitch and you can define how much you're going to be that leader depending on the team itself as well.
- [18:27]
Michael Cox
Yeah, it's a fair point. Just want to finish on this really before we move forward, is that I'm just thinking about potential talismans of the past. We were speaking just before the pod and our exec was talking about Cantona being he saw he was a talisman or thought he was a talisman at Manchester United. And then you look at, at a current Chelsea team, there was a Frank Lampard. Now we've got Cole Palmer, you look at Liverpool, there was a Steven Gerrard. Now you've got Mo Salah that has evolved in a weird way. Like Salah's sense of leadership is slightly different. It's more about the end product really than trying to G that team up. Whereas Gerrard was the guy grabbing them by the scruff of the neck going, we're going to finish this.
- [19:05]
Mark Carey
Yeah, that's really interesting. I'll be interested to get Phil's thoughts on this as well, where I feel like now you maybe think of a talisman as one who just gets the numbers and they're elite in terms. Think of Cole Palmer and Marcelo to your point that, that they are just numbers, machines as well. Whereas if I were to use your examples with the Lampard of Gerard de Cantona, yes, they got good numbers as well, but it was more about the presence and all of the people around them and what they did to facilitate others. And we are probably in. Well, we certainly are. Otherwise I wouldn't be in a job in an era of numbers. You know, it's been done in the past where you actually then compare Cantona's numbers to the average, you know, Premier League striker and it's. It's not remarkable but. But there's no doubt that he was a talisman and the presence that he had in the important moments as well, which again is something to add as an extra layer of importance is different. So it's maybe evolved that way, but not, I think more just because of the way that we consume our football.
- [19:57]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
I totally agree with that. And I think it's a modern football thing, which, again, relates to the Ballon d'or. It seems to me that the Ballon d'or is influenced an awful lot about that, which is why you don't tend to see goalkeepers in particular, but the defenders winning it either. It always gravitates towards the other end of the pitch in some respects. I don't think it's really changed at all. I mean, Talisman is the center of attention in the way that they've kind of always been. I don't think anyone today, you know, even Messi Ronaldo, would find themselves in more of a kind of intense, insane bubble than Maradona was in. Find himself in. In Naples. You know, like, people flock to these guys. They're really magnetic and they're names and individuals that, as a supporter, you can invest in, because they're a really sounding, you know, really sound investment for your emotion. These guys do deliver all the time. Another point to make, I think, is that there's probably a difference between the perception on the outside of a club as to what makes a talisman and the perception inside the dressing room of who is most seriously important and who makes the biggest difference on the outside. You know, like, goals make headlines, goals attacking threat tends to win individual awards, like. Like the Ballon d'or. So, so we, I guess, automatically lean towards footballers of that ilk. But, you know, say Real Madrid, where they've just been blessed with flair, player after flare player for years and years and years in the era of, you know, when Modric was in his prime, and I know he's still playing, but Toni Kroos as well, how much of it was actually driven by them? And if you went into the dressing room, how many of Real's players would have said, look, you know, these guys are key. You might have Ronaldo, you might latterly have Vinicius, you may have Mbappe and everything else, but there are others who are actually more important to us or are more critical to the way that we. We play, and I suspect there is. I expect you would get a contrast between what people on the outside would see and what people right in the thick of it think.
- [21:54]
Michael Cox
Yeah, I think you're spot on, Phil. And I actually think a testament to the fact that Real Madrid have constantly renewed the contracts of those two players. Cruise recently obviously left. Modric is looking at another year potentially as well.
- [22:05]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, even last night when he came on against ath, it cool. It made a difference to the tempo of the game, I thought. And. And gave gave real just a bit more control or a bit of concerted control at a period where they'd gone two one up and it and it really helped to to close out the game and made sure they went into the second leg with with an advantage and he is getting getting on but you know, in in patches he's still got it in a big way.
- [22:28]
Michael Cox
Coming up next, we'll talk Florian Virgin.
- [22:35]
Ayo Akimwaleri
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- [23:51]
Phil Hay
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- [24:22]
Ayo Akimwaleri
There's only one place to go, the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. There you can recharge before the big adventure or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You can recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar. Whatever you're in the mood for, find the detail that moves you with curated touches at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club Chase make more of what's yours. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.
- [24:49]
Mark Carey
JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval Foreign.
- [24:57]
Michael Cox
We spoke about Florian Verts at the top. He and Bay Leverkusen face Bayern Munich tonight in the Champions League Round of 16. After helping fire Leverkusen to an historic title win last season, he's followed that up with another incredible campaign as well. He's contributed. Listen to this 15 goals and 13 assists across all competitions so far. So let's hear from our German football correspondent Seb Stafford. Blur and what makes Wirt so special and the inevitable transfer links to Bayern Munich.
- [25:34]
Mark Carey
Technically? Clearly he has everything you could ask for. Lovely pass through the ball. Wonderful to watch when he carries the ball forward too. He's such an elusive dribbler. It has this lovely change of direction, ability to drop his shoulder and keep a defender off balance, all of these things. But I think what you're really left with is kind of a bit more of an aesthetic appeal to Wiz. He's incredible to watch and he's quite old fashioned in the way that he plays the game and in the way that he creates chances and floats and drifts. And he's not quite a traditional number 10 because I think that's more of a static player, historically at least, but he has those kind of maverick qualities, like a real maestro when he's on the ball. Anytime a German player in particular emerges in the Bundesliga, Bayern quickly becomes part of that conversation, and with good reason. I don't know that that's a move that's gonna be imminent, though, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because I suspect Wirtz will will sign a new contract at Leverkusen, extending his contract by a further year and that he'll stay there until the 2026 World cup because he's got a lot of momentum. He's growing really, really well, not just under Jabi Alonso, but with some of the other players there. With his place in the national team secure and with him still being so young and him very much being a local boy, he grew up 40km from Leverkusen. His mum and dad are still local and are still able to come and watch every home game. I don't think mixed with that World cup ambition, that's something he's ready to quite give up and he has plenty of time to. It's very, very hard to see that happening immediately.
- [27:22]
Michael Cox
The Athletics Michael Cox said in a recent piece on Wirtz that European Football hasn't witnessed a number 10 so intelligent and selfless with his movements since the rise of Mesut Ozil. Massive, massive praise there, Phil. And I know you probably don't watch the Bundesliga every week, but it's fair to say this is a player that's definitely making the headlines and that name is crossing the pond quite well.
- [27:44]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
He's so pleasing on the eye and he's one of those players who anytime Leverkusen show up on the schedule and I'm watching them, watching them on telly, you think to yourself, nice one. Get to watch Wirtz used to feel like that with Kadiskili at Napoli as well. You know, just the chance to watch him play because it is silky smooth and it is great to observe when Leverkusen are in possession. He's super clever with the ball at his feet, but he's super clever when he doesn't have it either. And what he does so well. Michael Cox's piece captured this so perfectly. It was on the the recent draw between Bayern and Leverkusen, which Leverkusen totally dominated and should have won, and if they had, it would have made the Bundesliga a lot more interesting than it is at present. But he's really, really good at putting himself in position to receive the ball and then make the most of the possession that he gets. He spots gaps, he takes advantage of them and it means that he can pick a pass, which he's absolutely fantastic at. Doing great at that. Great at moving defenses around and creating space for. For other players as well. Kind of makes defenders go where they don't want to go. And he really does make the Leverkusen system tick. Michael made the comparison to Mesut Ozo in his piece, which I thought was. Was really astute. And somebody else in the comments mentioned Thomas Muller. Germany does have that knack, doesn't it, of producing kind of clever, intelligent players. And Wirt's definitely one of those.
- [29:05]
Mark Carey
I mean, I definitely agree. I think that it sounds counterintuitive to say or juxtaposing to say these two things at once, but he has such an appreciation to find space. I watch back tracked all of his goals this morning and when he receives the ball, he's in yards of space at any one point, but he's also really comfortable when the pressure is on him as well. He's really, really comfortable in tight spaces.
- [29:26]
Michael Cox
That's a good point.
- [29:27]
Mark Carey
Of course I looked at the numbers on this.
- [29:28]
Michael Cox
Of course you did.
- [29:29]
Mark Carey
I found some data from. From Skill Corner. It looked at midfielders wide attackers and centre forwards in the Bundesliga. And Wirtz has received the most pressures per match of any anyone within that group. So he's comfortable with players coming from all different directions, yet still he kind of wriggles out of that trouble as well. And I was lucky enough to see him live this season. I went to a Champions League game between Bayerverkusen and AC Milan and I remember making the notes that I wasn't entirely sure where he was playing because he was on the left wing, he was on the right wing and he was just making sure that he was linking up and just sort of finding those triangles. And I think Seb made the point that you almost can't pin him down to a specific number 10 position because he sort of floats laterally and vertically as well. Basically wherever the defenders or the midfielders are is exactly where he isn't. So it's just he's so intelligent, just adapting his game and his positioning depending on where the opponent is. Which sounds counterintuitive again when you're thinking of an attacking player, but he really considers where the space is and where the opposition are and then as a consequence of where he can go.
- [30:30]
Michael Cox
Yeah, Phil, where could you see him fitting in any European clubs? And I think we spoke about Wirtz before and I think it was Seb that said actually if he does end up leaving Leverkusen, there's a high chance he's probably leaving with the Xabi Alonso because Xabi Alonso knows he's got his lieutenant there and wherever he goes he knows he'll get product out of him.
- [30:47]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, it's great question this. And Bayern seemed desperate to sign him. And while their system isn't the same as Leverkusen's, Leverkusen tend to have these two number tens in behind a nine, which seems to me to be totally tailor made for Wirtz. He'd readjust and he'd slot in no problem at Bayern and he'd instantly have more quality to feed from that area. But Manchester City feel like a very obvious fit. You know, they need the next Kevin De Bruyne or something in, in that mold. And after 10, you know, 10 fabulous years, de Bruyne is pretty much done there. You know that that is going to come to an end. I think the, the odd cynic out there will ask whether Guardiola will would potentially system the flare out of virtue and you know, allied Jack Grealish. But Guardiola does need, given how much possession City have in the way their games tend to shape up. Guardiola does need somebody who can unpack, unpick a lock against deep lines, and Vertz has certainly got that that talent. Just looking elsewhere in Europe, I don't feel like PSG's 433 is particularly made for him, and I'm not really sure they're paying that sort of fee anymore either. He's going to be super expensive when when he does move eventually and as it is at Real Madrid at the moment, I kind of feel the same. Although like you say, maybe it'll be Alonso who's in it, Real Madrid or something like that. When Wirtz decides to move Barca, do they really need somebody in that kind of position? Lewandowski is what, like 36 now? So at some point they're gonna have to throw some big money up front and that's probably going to have to happen somewhere pretty soon down, down the line. But Liverpool interests me as well. I mean, again, I don't think they're perfectly set up for Verts to just drop into that team overnight, but if Mo Salah is leaving in the summer, then there'd have to be a little bit of a rethink you would imagine. And, and broadly Salah leaves pretty big shoes to fill and that's going to demand a move into the kind of elite section of the transfer market. So I'm not saying that Wirtz and Salah are in any way identical because quite clearly they aren't. But Armour Slot will need exceptional attacking talent there.
- [32:49]
Michael Cox
Coming up next, we'll ask our club writers to name the talisman in the team they cover.
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Mark Carey
JP Morgan Chase bank and a member.
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Phil Hay
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- [34:13]
Mark Carey
This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. accamalero.
- [34:20]
Michael Cox
So we asked a selection of our club writers to tell us who their talisman is. Let's have a listen.
- [34:32]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, so I think if you ask any United supporter who's the best player.
- [34:35]
Mark Carey
Of the post Ferguson era, I'd be.
- [34:37]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Amazed 99% didn't say Fernandez, and I'd.
- [34:39]
Mark Carey
Probably argue that the other 1% haven't.
- [34:42]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Been paying enough attention, to be honest. Right, it's 90 goals, 79 assists in.
- [34:46]
Mark Carey
273 games in his United career so far. In a team that hasn't really lived.
- [34:50]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Up to expectations at any point since he joined, he's always been the one setting the standard and that's what made him the default choice as captain two summers ago.
- [34:58]
Mark Carey
If they didn't have his presence, his ability and his leadership at all, it.
- [35:02]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Kind of doesn't bear thinking just how much worse this could be. Kulasevski. Oh, would you believe it?
- [35:09]
Mark Carey
Tottenham's talisman has to be Diane Kulasevski. For me, I think he's been their best player this season. I think he's. He was one of the best players in the Premier League, certainly for the first half of the season. Although he looked a little bit jaded.
- [35:24]
Michael Cox
In the last few months, perhaps understandably.
- [35:26]
Mark Carey
Because he has played every single game for Tottenham this season. On the rare occasions that Kuluteski's been on the bench, they've had to bring him on in the second half because they haven't been good enough to win.
- [35:35]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The game without him.
- [35:36]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Palmer takes it on and scores.
- [35:42]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Another Karl Palmer.
- [35:44]
Michael Cox
Spectacular.
- [35:45]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
It was obvious when he was in his best rhythm and if anything, it's even clearer now that he's not that Cole Palmer is Chelsea's talisman. He is the rising tide that lifts all boats in this young team. He's the best finisher, also the best passer and overall, you would have to say the best decision maker in Enzo Maresca's squad, to the point where Chelsea's fortunes on any given day tend to hinge on whether he converts his chances or his teammates convert the ones that he creates for them.
- [36:18]
Michael Cox
There is simply no one quite like.
- [36:20]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Him in the Premier League Now.
- [36:21]
Mark Carey
Odegaard.
- [36:22]
Ayo Akimwaleri
It's Bukayo, Saka It's a double for Saka.
- [36:28]
Michael Cox
Speaking to you the morning after the.
- [36:30]
Mark Carey
71 win in Eindhoven, in which, for the first time in quite a long.
- [36:34]
Michael Cox
Time, Martin Odegaard looked like Martin Odegaard. But it is indicative of this season's.
- [36:39]
Mark Carey
Struggles, both with injury and form subsequently.
- [36:42]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
That if you were to ask that question of who is Arsenal's talisman, it.
- [36:46]
Michael Cox
Really feels like Saka because his levels.
- [36:49]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Of consistency ever since ever have been.
- [36:52]
Michael Cox
Remarkable and the way he's been missed over these past few months with his.
- [36:56]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Hamstring injury are pretty extreme.
- [37:01]
Michael Cox
Thanks Mark Critchley, Jack Pitt Brook, Liam Toomey and Amy Lawrence as well. Bruno Fernandes, Kulisiewski Cole Palmer, Bukaya Saka nominated by our club writers. The one that stuck out for me there was actually Bruno Fernandes gents. Like, you know, I was reading the stat the other day. What? Since his debut five years ago, only Mohamed Salah and Kevin De Bruyne have more Premier League assists than Bruno Fernandes. I mean, that's quite insane. But also, when you look at this current crop of United players and this team and where they're at almost more often than not, he seems to be the shining light trying to drive this team forward, and you always look at him, it just looks exhausted by the end of the game.
- [37:39]
Mark Carey
It's getting all of those numbers as well, in spite of the fact that they are sort of struggling at the moment and have been for quite some time. So I think this links to the point I made at the very start about Odegaard, where it's almost he's working so hard and trying to do everything all at once that it's actually then comes to the cost of the team overall because he is, you know, pulling himself into positions that he maybe shouldn't be in, trying to be the one that is like getting the crowd going. But it maybe speaks to the Manchester United overall structure that he's maybe pulling himself out of shape and then he's leaving space behind him and then when the opposition counterattack, he's not in the position that he should be in as well. So you can't blame him for trying because he's got the ability on the ball certainly to perform those certain actions, but in the wider overall team structure, is he maybe putting his team at a slight disadvantage, but then it becomes cyclical again because, well, if he didn't do it in the first place, then there'd maybe be an even worse position. So, yeah, I don't know the answer to it, but it's it's. Yeah, there's no doubt that he's. He's putting everything on the line, put it that way.
- [38:38]
Michael Cox
What'd you reckon to that list, Phil?
- [38:39]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The only one that I would question really is Kulasevsky and not because I don't think he's been very good. I think there's probably a little bit of recency bias is the right way to put it. But son has not had a great season. But for a long time he's been so influential at spurs and I think he massively falls into that. That category. Maybe it's at Old Trafford. There would have been a flicker of time where you might have said Rashford, but it seems like a long time since. Since that was part of the conversation. And Palmer at Chelsea. Absolutely no doubt at all. And I think what Amy said there about Saka kind of feeds into my point about Odegaard, that I think there are probably players who would class as bigger talisman or talismans, if we're using that phrase, than Odegaard, which is no slight on Odegaard because as I said, I really, really do rate him. But I think Saka has a little bit more of that quality Mark, we.
- [39:26]
Michael Cox
Left that Liverpool on purpose. And I know you're a Liverpool fan, but in your talisman tax piece, you know Trent Alexander Arnold was much higher than Mo Salah. But also we can also think about Virgil van Dijk there. I mean this is a team that you could arguably say has more than one talisman.
- [39:44]
Mark Carey
Yeah. Which I think it speaks to their strength in recent seasons, specifically this season. I think that Trent was maybe slightly higher because I did. I won't get into the technicalities of it, but I did include or I didn't take out set pieces there as well. So maybe it's because he has a responsibility to take corners and free kicks to make things happen as well. But there's little doubt that Liverpool have got multiple threats and multiple players who have got the creative responsibility, which I think is crucial. The Virgil Van Dijk thing. I'm probably going to answer a question that I'm going to create for myself here, but especially with everything that's going on with contract situations etc, that Mo Salah has been incredible this season, do not get me wrong. But in terms of maybe the importance of a player to kind of hold the foundation of the rest of the team, I would argue that Virgil Van Dijk is that player. He keeps the floor high, shall we say. Whereas Salah sort of breaks through the ceiling and makes the ceiling high for Liverpool and the way that I think of it is if you were to take either of them out of the team, how would they get on? And Liverpool would have less attacking potency without Mohamed Salah in the scene. That's obvious. But I still think they would find ways to create chances.
- [40:50]
Michael Cox
And Salah was injured for a while. Do you remember a couple of seasons ago and Liverpool fans found solutions to still get goals?
- [40:55]
Mark Carey
I remember exactly, exactly to my point. But then you think about Virgil van Dijk being taken out of the team. That was 20, 20, 21 season with his ACL injury. And granted that's a few seasons ago now, but Liverpool's performances fell like a house of cards and it was trying to sort of catch up with what had gone on. Much in the same way that we've got Rodri with Manchester City this season. So I'd argue that I don't want to get into the talisman tactics for this per se, but I think that the crucial cog in the wider system is probably Virgil van Dijk in this case than Mohamed Salah. But of course, please don't have any sound bites here. They're coming for you both. Incredible football.
- [41:32]
Michael Cox
Now on Socials. Let's see what they say. They'll come for you. What Mark said there was really interesting is that it's the player that once they're out of that team you really notice a massive difference. And in that guise, perhaps Van Dijk is the real talisman in this team.
- [41:46]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
It's a pretty good way of putting it. Who has missed most, essentially? It doesn't totally capture what a talisman is about, I don't think, but. But it goes, it goes pretty close. Liverpool had a great case study with this because you're automatically inclined to say Salah if he leaves. That looks and feels like the biggest toll before you give it, you know, deeper thought. But if you take out Van Dijk or you take out Alexander Arnold, you lose him to Real Madrid. It'd be complacent to think that you just ride those departures, that you just move on and you find other people because they are pivotal in their own ways. In my opinion, probably more replaceable than Salah. I do think that. I think Salah is at that really extreme level of ability. But they're only replaceable if the club are willing to throw what it costs at the market. And whoever does go from that batch, it feels like Alexander Arnold definitely will. The other two is so much harder to read, but it's it. It's a hell of a Spine to, to replace.
- [42:48]
Michael Cox
Yeah, for sure. All right, let's move on. What about the players at the bottom end of the table? One Brazilian attacker in particular has stood out. He's had a go and scored a belter. Matus Cunha at it again for Wolverhampton Wanderers. Matthias Kuna there with a stunning goal for Wolves against Bournemouth, which was also followed by a pretty bad case of head loss as he was sent off for violent conduct. I mean, strange player, incredibly talented though, Marc, I gotta say now Cunha ranked third highest in your talisman tax list and I know of recent. I mean he showed his worth for sure. A really key player for Wolves.
- [43:31]
Mark Carey
Yeah, hugely, hugely. And it makes you think how they'll get on without him with the ban that he's undoubtedly going to have. And I think that Cunha was a. Was a really good example. I sort of focus on him quite a lot within the piece because he is one of those, like we said before about if you take them out, how will this, the team do? But also with, I don't want to get into speculation too much, but potentially if he were to move on from Wolves because he's had such a fantastic season, whether or not his skill set is as scalable. Sort of mentioned it before, because if all roads lead to Matthias Kunya, from a shot perspective and a chance creation perspective, if he was to then play in a more of a equitable side, where he was his creator, the creative responsibility was shared around more evenly, would he get the same numbers? The answer might be yes, because he's maybe around more elite players and you'll find more space, etc. But that was kind of the main crux of the piece was that for those players who are maybe going from, well, in this case a bottom half team to in the broadest sense, a top half team, looking at things like goals per 90, assists per 90 at a very, very basic level, how much is that to do with the fact that the player is themselves elite and over performing and how much is it? Because all roads lead to them and it is their responsibility to get a large chunk of their overall team's attacking output. So of course he's played for an elite side before in Atletico Madrid, of course. But I do think that is a question worth posing if teams are going to maybe look to recruit him in the summer.
- [44:53]
Michael Cox
Yeah, as we've talked about the top end of the field now, we're obviously talking about Wolves. Any other players in the lower part of the Premier League that you're seeing the lap's been mentioned in terms of IP switch. Anyone else?
- [45:05]
Mark Carey
Yeah, De Lapp is a good one. And similarly, I think a lot of roads for Ipswich lead to De Lapp. So again, you think about the scalability of his skill set. He's going to be highly coveted in the summer, you should imagine. So I think it's another thing to consider with the goals that he's putting up and how much it is all leading to him. I think Tyler dibling Southampton as well. I think he's got the freedom to be able to try and make something happen as well. And I sort of see it like the Jack Grealish effect. He were to play at this, let's say a traditional top six side that whether or not he'd have to have a little bit more discipline because I love watching him play and it's obviously in a Southampton side who are struggling as well. So he maybe looks like more of a bright spark because, you know, in relation to some of the. The play that they have. But I think he'd be maybe another one. It's not necessarily lower down the lead because they're having a fantastic season. But Brian Beaumont, Brentford, was on the list in the piece as well. And I think unsung hero, honestly, he's putting up some fantastic numbers this year.
- [46:01]
Michael Cox
He always has. And then he gets injured and then we don't see him for ages. But he's such a good player.
- [46:06]
Mark Carey
Yeah. And again, I feel like I'm selling off all of these players, but I think he's raising the price. He's potentially deserving of a move as well. I think that people maybe sleep on just how good his numbers have been and his performances have been this season and to your point, have been for a couple of seasons now. Yeah.
- [46:19]
Michael Cox
What do you reckon, Phil?
- [46:20]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Yeah, I had Mbuomo on my list. He's come storming into that category. Just a slightly random one mark. And I don't know what you'd think to this, but what about Bowen at West Ham? Does he kind of make the cut? Just about, yeah.
- [46:31]
Mark Carey
It's an interesting one, I think of the West Ham players I can check checks notes. I think that it's only Lucas Paqueta, which makes sense from a creative standpoint within this list, within the Talisman tags. But I completely take your point from a sort of stepping up and making sure that you get a goal in the crucial moments that's more of the clutch player Talisman. I'd say that he'd probably be that person and especially from the fan base. Bowen is that player, isn't he that everyone thinks is. You know, even when West Ham haven't been performing, he gets a bit of an easier ride because they know that he's the one who's puffing his chest out to continue that phrase. I've used all episodes for sure.
- [47:07]
Michael Cox
Honestly gents, this has been such an enthralling conversation. Really appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much for your time, plus all our other writers who contributed today as well. That's it for now. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [47:18]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [47:27]
Phil Hay
Hotels.com knows that planning your book club's annual trip can get chaotic. Self improvement. Steve needs a hotel, gym and horror. Harriet ghosted the group chat about budget, collaborate, vote on your favorites and book all in the app. Find your Perfect somewhere with Hotels.com this podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest. All because someone stole your your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the dark Web, blocks data brokers from selling your information, includes a VPN for private browsing and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's a U r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [48:36]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Acast powers the world's best podcasts.
- [48:39]
Mark Carey
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [48:43]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [48:46]
Ayo Akimwaleri
We make fun of everything but most importantly ourselves.
- [48:49]
Mark Carey
I'm Paige desorbo.
- [48:50]
Ayo Akimwaleri
I'm Hannah Burner.
- [48:51]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
Welcome. Welcome to the squad.
- [48:52]
Mark Carey
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [48:56]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
But of course we can't be managed.
- [48:58]
Ayo Akimwaleri
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [49:01]
Seb Stafford-Bloor
We will make fun of pop culture news.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests.
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
Wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize.
- [49:19]
Mark Carey
Their podcast Us Everywhere Acast.
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Seb Stafford-Bloor
Com.