The Athletic FC Podcast: Wirtz, Odegaard, Fernandes – What Makes a Talisman?
Release Date: March 5, 2025
Host: Ayo Akinwolere
Guests: Phil Hay, Adam Crafton, Matt Slater
Introduction
In this episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, host Ayo Akinwolere delves into the concept of a "talisman" within football. Joining him are Phil Hay, Adam Crafton, and Matt Slater, who explore what elevates certain players to talisman status, the metrics used to identify them, and real-world examples highlighting their impact on teams.
Defining a Talisman
Phil Hay begins by dissecting the traditional view of a talisman, emphasizing that while attacking prowess is a common trait, being a talisman isn't limited to offensive players.
"A talisman doesn't have to be an attacking player; they are often the ones we lean towards in these discussions because goals win games. But really, a talisman is about their influence and leadership on the pitch."
[Phil Hay, 04:25]
Phil further illustrates that talismans conduct the team's play like an orchestra, making critical decisions and maintaining composure under pressure.
Metrics for Identifying Talismans
Mark Carey introduces the concept of the "Talisman Tax," a metric inspired by basketball's usage rate, aiming to quantify a player's creative responsibility within their team.
"It looks at the share of a team's possessions a player uses while on the pitch, focusing on actions that attempt to create something significant, regardless of efficiency."
[Mark Carey, 05:34]
Ayo adds that this metric aligns with other analytical approaches like expected threat—which measures a player's contribution to a team's scoring chances by evaluating every action's potential impact.
"Expected threat allows you to quantify every player's action, giving credit not just to goal-scorers but also to those who make crucial defensive plays or build-up actions."
[Ayo Akinwolere, 12:04]
Case Studies of Talismans
Martin Odegaard – Arsenal
Phil Hay discusses Martin Odegaard's role at Arsenal, questioning whether he has achieved true talisman status.
"Odegaard is incredibly influential, but Arsenal's defensive recruitment shortcomings place excessive pressure on him. This imbalance makes his absence feel more impactful than it might otherwise."
[Phil Hay, 04:18]
Alex Pereira emphasizes Odegaard's versatility and the demands placed on him due to squad depth issues.
"He's trying to do everything at once, which might dilute his effectiveness. To be a true talisman, he might need to focus more on his strengths rather than spreading himself too thin."
[Alex Pereira, 05:06]
Florian Wirtz – Bayer Leverkusen
The episode highlights Florian Wirtz as a rising talisman, drawing comparisons to legends like Mesut Özil and Thomas Müller.
"Wirtz has an aesthetic appeal and a maverick quality, acting as the maestro for Leverkusen. His ability to adapt his positioning makes him indispensable to the team's system."
[Phil Hay, 25:05]
Seb Stafford Blur notes Wirtz's potential move to bigger clubs like Bayern Munich or Manchester City, though he remains a Leverkusen stalwart for now.
"His deep understanding with Jabulonso and his local roots make an immediate move unlikely, ensuring his continued influence at Leverkusen until at least the 2026 World Cup."
[Seb Stafford Blur, 25:05]
Bruno Fernandes – Manchester United
Phil Hay argues that Bruno Fernandes epitomizes a talisman through his consistent performance and leadership at Manchester United.
"With 90 goals and 79 assists, Fernandes has been the standard-bearer for United, setting the bar both on and off the pitch."
[Phil Hay, 32:32]
Ayo reflects on Fernandes' exhaustive efforts that, while driving the team forward, may sometimes disrupt overall team structure.
"He's putting everything on the line, which speaks to his talismanic nature, but it also raises questions about team dynamics and reliance."
[Ayo Akinwolere, 35:01]
Liverpool: Mohamed Salah vs. Virgil van Dijk
A nuanced discussion arises around Liverpool's talismans, considering both Mohamed Salah and Virgil van Dijk.
Mark Carey posits that while Salah is the obvious talisman due to his goal-scoring, Phil Hay suggests Virgil van Dijk might be equally, if not more, pivotal for Liverpool's structure.
"Van Dijk provides the foundational strength, ensuring Liverpool maintains its defensive solidity. Without him, the team's performances have historically plummeted, as seen during his 2021 ACL injury."
[Mark Carey & Phil Hay, 37:25]
Phil adds that while Salah is irreplaceable in terms of goal production, players like Trent Alexander-Arnold and Virgil van Dijk embody talismanic qualities due to their comprehensive impact on the team's performance.
"Liverpool's strength lies in having multiple players who contribute significantly, making them resilient and adaptable even when key players are absent."
[Phil Hay, 38:50]
Lower Table Performers as Talismans
The conversation shifts to players from lower-ranked teams who exhibit talismanic traits, focusing on their potential impact and transfer prospects.
Matthias Cunha – Wolverhampton Wanderers
Mark Carey highlights Matthias Cunha's standout performances for Wolves, despite disciplinary issues.
"Cunha scored a stunning goal against Bournemouth and remains a key player for Wolves. His ability to perform crucial actions makes him indispensable."
[Mark Carey, 41:31]
Ayo questions how Wolves will cope without him following a suspension, underscoring his importance.
"Without Cunha, Wolves might struggle to replicate their attacking output, emphasizing his talismanic role."
[Ayo Akinwolere, 41:31]
Club Writers' Nominees
The podcast features club writers nominating their respective talismans, showcasing a diverse range of players across the Premier League.
-
Bruno Fernandes – Manchester United
- Phil Hay praises Fernandes for his consistent goal contributions and leadership, noting his crucial role in the team's dynamics.
"He's always been setting the standard, which made him the default choice as captain two summers ago."
[Phil Hay, 32:42] -
Daniil Kulyasevski – Tottenham Hotspur
- Ayo recognizes Kulyasevski as Spurs' talisman, citing his consistent performances and importance in the squad.
"He's been their best player this season, one of the Premier League's top performers despite showing signs of fatigue."
[Ayo Akinwoleri, 33:10] -
Cole Palmer – Chelsea
- Phil Hay lauds Palmer as Chelsea's rising talisman, highlighting his goal-scoring, passing, and decision-making abilities.
"Chelsea's fortunes often hinge on whether Palmer converts his chances or his teammates do."
[Phil Hay, 33:45] -
Bukayo Saka – Arsenal
- Ayo emphasizes Saka's consistency and his pivotal role, especially during his injury spells.
"Saka's levels have been remarkable, and his absence due to hamstring injuries has been keenly felt."
[Ayo Akinwoleri, 34:37] -
Virgil van Dijk / Mohamed Salah – Liverpool
- Mark Carey and Phil Hay discuss van Dijk's foundational impact compared to Salah's goal-scoring prowess.
"Van Dijk is the real talisman in Liverpool, holding the team together defensively, whereas Salah drives the attacking force."
[Phil Hay, 37:25]
Conclusions and Insights
The episode concludes by reflecting on the multifaceted nature of talismans in football. While traditional metrics emphasize attacking contributions, the true essence of a talisman encompasses leadership, adaptability, and the ability to influence the game across various aspects. The "Talisman Tax" and expected threat metrics provide a nuanced framework for identifying such players, bridging the gap between raw statistics and the intangible qualities that make a player indispensable.
"A talisman is essentially a leader, someone who can step up when needed, regardless of their position on the pitch. It's about their overall impact and consistency."
[Phil Hay, 40:48]
This comprehensive discussion underscores that talismans are not just numbers machines but pivotal figures whose presence can transform the dynamics and fortunes of their teams.
Notable Quotes:
-
Phil Hay:
"A talisman doesn't have to be an attacking player; they are often the ones we lean towards in these discussions because goals win games. But really, a talisman is about their influence and leadership on the pitch."
[04:25] -
Mark Carey:
"It looks at the share of a team's possessions a player uses while on the pitch, focusing on actions that attempt to create something significant, regardless of efficiency."
[05:34] -
Phil Hay:
"Odegaard is incredibly influential, but Arsenal's defensive recruitment shortcomings place excessive pressure on him. This imbalance makes his absence feel more impactful than it might otherwise."
[04:18] -
Alex Pereira:
"He's trying to do everything at once, which might dilute his effectiveness. To be a true talisman, he might need to focus more on his strengths rather than spreading himself too thin."
[05:06] -
Phil Hay:
"Saka has a little bit more of that quality."
[36:40] -
Phil Hay:
"Van Dijk is the real talisman in Liverpool, holding the team together defensively, whereas Salah drives the attacking force."
[37:25]
This episode provides a deep dive into the characteristics that define a talisman in modern football, supported by insightful metrics and real-world examples. Whether it's a rising star like Florian Wirtz or established figures like Bruno Fernandes, the discussion highlights the essential blend of skill, leadership, and influence that elevates players to talisman status.