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- [00:00]
Alex Pereira
Exclusively on ESPN. UFC 313 Saturday Reigning Light heavyweight champion Alex Pereira defends his title against number.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
One contender Magomed on Goliath and an.
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Alex Pereira
Explosive lightweight bout between Justin Gaethje and Rafael Pizzie. UFC 313 Saturday at 10pm Eastern. Buy it on espnplus.com PPB got a musty head? You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Ba da ba ba ba.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
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Alex Pereira
Hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the Jumbotron.
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Ayo Akimwaleri
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Alex Pereira
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Ayo Akimwaleri
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Alex Pereira
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- [01:14]
Phil Hay
The Athletic FC Podcast.
- [01:16]
Alex Pereira
Network.
- [01:21]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ayo Akimwaleri. There's a new wonderkid on the block and his name is Florian Vets Pass.
- [01:28]
Phil Hay
1, pass 2 Vert. This man is a sensation.
- [01:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Florian Wirtz has established himself as the man to carry the creative responsibility for Bayer Leverkusen, but how does he measure up against the world's best in his position? And is there a danger in becoming over reliant on a player to make things happen? In with us today we have the Athletics, Phil Hay, and we've also got Mark Carey as well. So the knockout phases of the European club competitions are in full swing this week. And speaking of Talisman, last night we saw Martin Odegaard help fire Arsenal to a resounding 71 victory away at PSV. Odegaard in no mood to relent.
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Alex Pereira
It's Odegaard.
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Phil Hay
Benitez couldn't keep it out.
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Alex Pereira
Arsenal have six, Odegaard has two.
- [02:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Phil so if we're talking Talisman and Arsenal don't have Bukayo saka right now, surely Odegaard last night is illustrating this very point, a player that when in form, really helps a team tick.
- [02:32]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Although I am slightly inclined to look at Arsenal in isolation when it comes to Odegaard. And also I'm not entirely sure that as impressive as he is, and I'm a big Odegaard fan, that he's necessarily quite reached sort of Talisman levels in the way that, say, someone like Mo Salahaz or other players that we'll. We'll discuss. Virtu, who you mentioned, Arsenal's recruitment over the past couple of years has been very defensive, paid a lot of attention to defenders, specifically more holding midfielders than attacking options, and as everybody knows, kind of short in the. In the number nine position. It's where a lot of the money's gone and I think it's come over time to look like a mistake or to have created a bit of an imbalance. Without any doubt, you have to factor injuries into that and every time we talk about Arsenal, we come back to the number of players who are missing. But to look at the squad and to see how it stacks up at the moment, it does feel thinner when it comes to Arteta's attacking choices and attacking options. And I think that puts an enormous amount of pressure on somebody like Odegaard and makes you feel, I guess, the impact of his absence more than you should if the squad was slightly deeper or slightly more stacked where it needs to be. But yeah, you are going to miss a player like him. And I think, as much as, I don't think that a talisman has to be an attacking player, an attacking asset, they are the ones that we tend to lean towards in these discussions. They are the ones that make it happen. Goals win, games ultimately, which is why things like the Ballon d'or tend to go more often than not to attacking players. So, yes, I think when you have somebody who does conduct the orchestra, if you want to put it like that, or is as influential as Odegaard can be, you are going to miss him. But just to reiterate, I'm not totally convinced that you would have Odegaard as talisman at this stage.
- [04:25]
Alex Pereira
I think it's interesting with Odegaard as well, because of the absence of Saka and how strong his season was last season, this season, because of Saka's absence, there's times when he comes and sits between the centre backs to try and collect the ball as well. So in order for him to maybe have more of a talismanic role, he needs to almost be further forward to make sure he's repeatably in that position. But because of the attacking issues that Arsenal have, he's trying to do kind of everything at once. And of course, in order to be the most effective, you need to sort of stick to your strength. So it's maybe a slight indication that he wants to be more of the talisman, to be all over the pitch at any one time, but maybe he needs to almost rein it in a Little bit. Which is quite strange to say.
- [05:06]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Well, we'll hear from our Arsenal writer Amy Lawrence on whether Odegaard indeed or Saka is Arsenal's talisman. But Mark, I mean as you're talking, you recently tried to quantify the creative responsibility of footballers and came up with the Talisman tax. Now I found this article really, really interesting. Definitely a lot of people talking about it. When you look at the comments now we'll dive into some of the individuals a little later on. But firstly tell us how you came up with this metric and how you quantify it.
- [05:34]
Alex Pereira
Well, it has its foundation in theft, I suppose about your mind. Yeah, which is quite normal for me to be honest, from an ideas perspective. But it's taken from basketball as an idea and it's based on the idea of usage rate, which is a well established metric in basketball. I didn't realize this, that it's been established for near enough 50 years, which shows just how strong their sort of analytic side is, I suppose in American sports, but essentially looks at the share of a team's possessions a player uses while on the floor. So essentially looking at their shots, their free throws, their number of turnovers as a share of the team's total and essentially looks to see which of those players are broadly the most ball dominant, how much they're contributing most to the outcomes of each possession. So in general, as a rule you expect your best players and your best shooters to have the highest usage rate. And that's been the case certainly in basketball for a while. And I wanted to look at this in a football sense and I essentially just rebranded the name and thought of it in a slightly different way. So this version looks at the number of times that a player had the last action within their team's sequence of possession. So essentially an indication of them trying to make something happen with a high risk, a high reward action, like a take on a progressive pass, a shot, whatever it may be, and essentially looking at which players are tasked with the biggest creative responsibility in their team, regardless of efficiency. And I looked at it just in terms of the attacking 2/3. So try to focus on who are, if we were to refine it even more, who is the attacking talisman for their respective team.
- [07:09]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Interesting. I was just thinking when he's saying that Phil, and he was talking about basketball in particular, you know, let's take that great Chicago Bulls team with Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Dennis Rodman and how actually in order for the Talisman, then the guy that takes all those high risk shots and you know, Creates something from nothing. Michael Jordan would be in that situation. How much. The Talisman also needs certain things to also work on the field, so they're able to execute properly, as efficient as they can be.
- [07:36]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I think this is the point. I mean, with people like Rodman, it was the rebounding, and I suppose we shouldn't go too deep into basketball here, but even latterly, with the Bulls, people like Steve Kerr, who could shoot three, three pointers, it was. It was so much about Jordan. But if you read any of the books about the Bulls or follow the. The Last Dance, the Netflix series, you'll find how influential people like Scotty Pippen and others were as well. And. And Phil Jackson, the coach. It's a. It's an entirely team package as. As it tends to be in football. But I mean, we. I was just gonna say as well. I don't think Mark should feel too guilty about the idea of theft, because I think historically the greatest works of art have always been stolen by people, haven't they? It's just human nature. But we devoted a recent podcast to Neymar and inevitably got on to talking about his stock in comparison to Messi and Ronaldo. And I was kind of making the point in that podcast that to be the best of the best, it's not just a matter of raw, hardcore ability. It always comes down to appetite and mentality, I guess, the drive to. To be the best of the best indefinitely, to never feel like enough's enough or that you're tired or fatigued by the constant strain of having to be aspirational. So I think the way I would categorize it is it's. It's not just players who do exceptional things for the level that they're at, but it's them having the ability to repeat over and over again. You know, so much more than flash in the pan, exceptional performances, like 1 in 4, 1 in 5, like these are the footballers who deliver consistently and deliver when it matters, and also, I think, deliver in a way that. That kind of makes you. Makes you sit up. Like, the scenario that comes to mind for me always with this is Maradona at Napoli. It's not that that Napoli didn't have other quality players, but he brought an edge and an aura to them which made such a difference and got them to two Scudettos. And I think when push comes to shove, you would say that the crop of footballers who are, like, genuinely talismanic is genuinely tiny. And it seems to me to be as much an expression of mentality as it is purely about their, their talent. Having said that, and I'm really interested in Mark's view on this. Do, does a talisman exist at any level? Can it exist at any level of football? Does it just have to be the elite? Or is it more a case of who inspires a particular club? Because I kind of feel like it's the latter. You know, who is who, who brings the magic to the club that, that you follow. And also I would, I would say again, I don't think it needs to be in an attacking player. Manuel Neuer at Bayern Munich, guys like Andrea Pirlo play for the forward, but Paolo Maldini, even English example, John Terry at Chelsea, it feels like it's about levels as much as anything else.
- [10:15]
Alex Pereira
No, I agree. I think it's potentially more important as you go down the levels because there's probably a higher disparity between your best player and your worst player. So you want to make sure that you accentuate the strengths of the best player rather than at the very elite level. Pretty much everyone is that good that you can sort of spread it around a little bit more. So I think that it's, you know, you could think everyone's got their own example of it at maybe Sunday league level, playing 11 a side with, you know, your local team. I think that everyone's, everyone knows that they try and get the ball to the best player as quickly and as best they can. It's essentially that really. I think it's interesting what you say as well, Phil, about the. Almost like the game changing ability of certain players. And I did something fairly recently on, and it's again probably based in theft when I think about it, but on Jude Bellinger and talking about how he's clutch player and this is again a bit of an Americanism, which you know, is a bit controversial in the comments, but the idea that he steps up when, you know, when things are tight. And I looked at the share of game state changing goals that he scored in La Liga and the Champions League since he joined. So going from a losing position to a drawing position or a drawing position to a winning position. And of the goals that he scored for Real Madrid, at least he had the most game state changing goals. So he's the one who puffs his chest out when the chips are down and says, I'm going to be the one to go and get a goal. We saw it in the Euros in last summer as well. And he said, you know who else? He's the one who sort of steps up So I think that's an element of talismanic behavior as well. But to broadly answer your question, Phil, I think that sort of trait can be relevant at any level and arguably more important, the lower down you go.
- [11:49]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, I'm interested when you're talking about that in something, you also were looking at expected threat and, you know, other things that players can offer a team that gives them that expected threat. Can you just give me a bit more clarification on that?
- [12:04]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, and I think this kind of broadens out to when we're saying it doesn't always have to be an attacking player as well, because expected threat, and I mentioned it before in terms of this talisman tax, and I mentioned it was regardless of efficiency, and that's quite important as well, because the talisman tax that I've termed doesn't look at the efficiency of the player's actions. It just gives an indication of their involvement within the actions. And often by looking at the list within the piece, you can see that they are also efficient with it, but it doesn't always have to be the case. So expected threat, and people are familiar with analytics, might see this as termed as possession value on ball value. They're essentially synonyms for the same thing that does look at the efficiency of measuring every player's action on the pitch shows how much a player is contributing towards their team's overall chances of scoring a goal. So it allows you to quantify every action on the pitch, good, bad or in between. So rather than just credit those who play the final pass for the assist and those who get the glory from the shots and the goals, you can actually measure potentially the value of a defensive midfielder who plays that line breaking pass. In order for the player to run on, take on the player, pass it for someone else to score. The player who has the assist will get some credit. The player who scores the goal will get some credit. But importantly, by this measure, you can actually give some valuable credit to those players who actually progress the ball further up the sequence chain, if you like. So it could be a centre back who makes that crucial challenge to stop the counter attack to then allow their team to go on and score themselves. Those sorts of things by this measure allows you to quantify that and it has its blind spots, but it can be a really useful measure to show and give a bit more of a well rounded view of a player's actions on the pitch.
- [13:42]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Just thinking, actually, can that also be affected by whichever team you play in? So Declan Rice at West Ham, for instance, his role at West Ham, and you saw him driving forward, maybe getting the odd goal here or there as well, versus the position he's playing at Arsenal, where he's not scoring that many goals. But, you know, he offered. He carries the ball really well. You know, based on the system. Certain players might not work if they go somewhere else with a different system.
- [14:02]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, no, I think this is hugely important. I think this is the. Where the. The recruitment analysts really earn their money. Because you can look at something on a. On a list, on a spreadsheet of who's maybe showing up with the best numbers, but it's almost trying to predict, and there's more complex models that do this now, and I won't get too. I won't get too technical.
- [14:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
And it's also. With theft.
- [14:20]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, exactly. But it sort of shows that you can see how scalable that player's skill set is, or you can predict how effective that player's skillset will be if they go into a new system. If it's the West Ham to Arsenal example, there's a different play style there. To be like, okay, well, there's potentially a leap of faith there. To be like the skill set that we see in Declan Rice here we can apply to Arsenal, but I suppose it links with the talisman attacks as well. If a player is getting a lot of the ball and then they go to a team where they're in a bit more of an equitable sort of attacking sequence, shall we say, then they're going to. Maybe their numbers might drop off, but it doesn't mean that they're any less effective when they do get the ball. They're just having to spread out their sort of attacking potency. So I think it is a really good point. And that's, as I say, where the recruitment analysts really earn their money to work out how well a player will go from one team to another, because they're only as good as the metrics within that team, within that system and what the manager is asking them to do. But if they've got a new manager asking to do different things, then you can't always guarantee it's going to be the same.
- [15:19]
Phil Hay
We definitely need a calculation for expected new metrics per season. I think expected threat is a new one for me. But there is a point to be made about it, I think, which is between that and also the data that is used in basketball and NBA to identify a talisman, are we kind of essentially saying that a talisman is basically an attacking asset that is most likely to be what your talisman is given the numbers that are being used for.
- [15:47]
Alex Pereira
This piece specifically it was because I was looking at the attacking two thirds of the pitch. But I think that you can absolutely still have a talisman who's a defender who creates that foundation to allow you to then operate in a certain way. I think that when I think of a talisman, and I've got to be careful not to double down too much on the term that I used here, but I think that to be a talisman, it's essentially a bit of a synonym for a leader. Someone who is going to, as I mentioned before, puff their chest out and that can be in any position at any one time. And you can also probably have multiple talisman within the team at any one point as well. So for the purpose of this exercise within the piece, I kept it more towards the creative responsibility and the attacking side of things. But. But to your point, I think that you can absolutely have it as any player on the pitch and you can define how much you're going to be that leader depending on the team itself as well.
- [16:41]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, it's a fair point. Just want to finish on this really, before we move forward, is that I'm just thinking about potential talismans of the past. We were speaking just before the pod and our exec was talking about Cantona being he saw he was a talisman or thought he was a talisman at Manchester United. And then you look at at a current Chelsea team, there was a Frank Lampard. Now we've got Cole Palmer, you look at Liverpool, there was a Steven Gerrard. Now you've got Mo Salah that has evolved in a weird way. Like Salah's sense of leadership is slightly different. He's more about the end product really than trying to g that team up. Whereas Gerrard was the guy grabbing them by the scruff of the neck going, we're going to finish this.
- [17:19]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, that's really interesting. It'll be interesting to get Phil's thoughts on this as well. Where I feel like now you maybe think of a talisman as one who just gets the numbers and they're elite in terms. Think of Cole Palmer and Marcelo to your point that. That they are just numbers machines as well. Whereas if I were to use your examples with the Lampard, de Gerard, de Cantona, yes, they got good numbers as well, but it was more about the presence and all of the people around them and what they did to facilitate others. And we are probably in. Well, we certainly are. Otherwise I wouldn't be in A job in an era of numbers. You know, it's been done in the past where you actually then compare Cantona's numbers to the average, you know, Premier League striker, and it's. It's not remarkable, but. But there's no doubt that he was a talisman, and the presence that he had in the important moments as well, which, again, is something to add as an extra layer of importance is different. So it's maybe evolved that way, but I think more just because of the way that we consume our football.
- [18:11]
Phil Hay
I totally agree with that. And I think it's a modern football thing, which, again, relates to the Ballon d'or. It seems to me that the Ballon d'or is influenced an awful lot about that, which is why you don't tend to see goalkeepers in particular, but the defenders winning it either. It always gravitates towards the other end of the pitch in some respects. I don't think it's really changed at all. I mean, Talisman is the center of attention in the way that they've kind of always been. I don't think anyone today, you know, even Messi Ronaldo, would find themselves in more of a kind of intense, insane bubble than Maradona was in. Find himself in. In Naples. You know, like, people flock to these guys. They're really magnetic and they're names and individuals that, as a supporter, you can invest in because they're a really sounding, you know, really sound investment for your emotion. These guys do deliver all the time. Another point to make, I think, is that there's probably a difference between the perception on the outside of a club as to what makes a talisman and the perception inside the dressing room of who is most seriously important and who makes the biggest difference on the outside. You know, like goals make headlines, goals attacking threat tends to win individual awards, like the Ballon d'or. So we, I guess, automatically lean towards footballers of that ilk. But, you know, say Real Madrid, where they've just been blessed with flair, player after player for years and years and years in the era of, you know, when Modric was in his prime, and I know he's still playing, but Toni Kroos as well, how much of it was actually driven by them? And if you went into the dressing room, how many of Real's players would have said, look, you know, these guys are key. You might have Ronaldo, you might latterly have Vinicius, you might have Mbappe and everything else, but there are others who are actually more important to us or are more critical to the way that we we play. And I suspect there is. I expect you would get a contrast between what people on the outside would say and what people right in the thick of it think.
- [20:07]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, I think you're spot on, Phil. And I actually think a testament to the fact that Real Madrid have constantly renewed the contracts of those two players, Cruz recently obviously left. Modric is looking at another year potentially as well.
- [20:19]
Phil Hay
Yeah, even last night when he came on against Athlet, it made a difference to the tempo of the game, I thought, and gave real just a bit more control or a bit of concerted control at a period where they'd gone two one up and it really helped to close out the game and made sure they went into the second leg with an advantage. And he is getting on but in patches he's still got it in a big way.
- [20:42]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Coming up next, we'll talk Florian Wirtz.
- [20:47]
Alex Pereira
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Alex Pereira
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Ayo Akimwaleri
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- [22:24]
Phil Hay
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Ayo Akimwaleri
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Alex Pereira
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Alex Pereira
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- [22:41]
Ayo Akimwaleri
We spoke about Florian Wirtz at the top. He and Bay Leverkusen face Bayern Munich tonight in the Champions League Round of 16. After helping fire Leverkus into an historic title win last season, he's followed that up with another incredible campaign as well. He's contributed. Listen to this 15 goals and 13 assists across all competitions so far. So let's hear from our German football correspondent Seb Stafford Blur and what makes Vert so special? And the inevitable transfer links to Bayern Munich and the flag for now will stay down.
- [23:17]
Alex Pereira
Technically. Clearly he has everything you could ask for. Lovely passure of the ball. Wonderful to watch when he carries the ball forward too. He's such an elusive dribbler. He has this lovely change of direction, ability to drop his shoulder and keep a defender off balance, all of these things. But I think what you're really left with is kind of a bit more of an aesthetic appeal to Wirtz. He's incredible to watch and he's quite old fashioned in the way that he plays the game and in the way that he creates chances and floats and drifts. And he's not quite a traditional number 10 because I think that's a, that's more of a static player historically at least, but he has those kind of maverick qualities, like a real maestro when he's on the ball. Anytime a German player in particular emerges in the Bundesliga, Bayern quickly becomes part of that conversation. And with good reason. I don't know that that's a move that's going to be imminent, though, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because I suspect Wirtz will sign a new contract at Leverkusen, extending his contract by a further year and that he'll stay there until the 2026 World cup because he's got a lot of momentum. He's growing really, really well, not just under Jabulonso, but with some of the other players there. With his place in the national team secure and with him still being so young and him very much being a local boy, he grew up 40km from Leverkusen, his mum and dad are still local and are still able to come and watch every home game. I don't think mixed with that World cup ambition that's Something he's ready to quite give up and he has plenty of time to move. So it's very, very hard to see that happening immediately.
- [25:05]
Ayo Akimwaleri
The Athletic's Michael Cox said in a recent piece on Wirtz that European football hasn't witnessed a number 10. So in 10, intelligent and selfless with his movements since the rise of Mesa Ozil. Massive, massive praise there, Phil. And I know you probably don't watch the Bundesliga every week, but it's fair to say this is a player that's definitely making the headlines and that name is crossing the pond quite well.
- [25:27]
Phil Hay
He's so pleasing on the eye and he's one of those players who anytime Leverkusen show up on the schedule and I'm watching them, watching them on telly, you think to yourself, nice one. Get to watch Wirtz. Used to feel like that with Kadishkili at Napoli as well. Just the chance to. To watch him play because it is silky smooth and it is, it is great to. Great to observe when Leverkusen are in possession. He's super clever with the ball at his feet, but he's super clever when he doesn't have it either and, and what he does so well. Michael Cox's piece captured this so perfectly. It was on the. The recent draw between Bayern and Leverkusen, which Leverkusen totally dominated and, and should have won and if they had, it would have made the Bundesliga a lot more interesting than it is at present. But he's. He's really, really good at putting himself in possession to receive the ball and then make the most of the possession that he gets. He spots gaps, he takes advantage of them and it means that he can pick a pass, which he's absolutely fantastic at, doing great at that, great at moving defenses around and creating space for. For other players as well. Kind of makes defenders go where they don't want to go. And he really does make the Leverkusen system tick. Michael made the comparison to Mesut Ozo in his piece, which I thought was. Was really astute. And somebody else in the comments mentioned Thomas Muller. Germany does have that knack, doesn't it, of producing kind of clever, intelligent players. And Wirt's definitely one of those.
- [26:49]
Alex Pereira
I mean, I definitely agree. I think that it sounds counterintuitive to say, or juxtaposing to say these two things once, but he has such an appreciation to find space. I watched back all of his goals this morning and when he receives the ball, he is in yards of space at any one point, but he's also really comfortable when the pressure is on him as well. He's really, really comfortable in tight spaces.
- [27:10]
Ayo Akimwaleri
That's a good triple.
- [27:10]
Alex Pereira
Of course I looked at the numbers on this.
- [27:12]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Of course you did.
- [27:13]
Alex Pereira
I found some data from, from Skill Corner. It looked at midfielders, wide attackers and centre forwards in the Bundesliga and Wirtz has received the most pressures per match of any anyone within that group. So he's comfortable with players coming from all different directions, yet still he kind of wriggles out of that trouble as well. And I was lucky enough to see him live this season. I went to a Champions League game between Bayer Vacusen and A.C. milan and I remember making the notes that I wasn't entirely sure where he was playing because he was on the left wing, he was on the right wing and he was just making sure that he was linking up and just sort of finding those triangles. And I think Seb made the point that you almost can't pin him down to a specific number 10 position because he sort of floats laterally and vertically as well. Basically, wherever the defenders or the midfielders are is exactly where he isn't. So he's so intelligent, just adapting his game and his positioning depending on where the opponent is. Which sounds counterintuitive again when you're thinking of an attacking player, but he really considers where the space is and where the opposition are and then as a consequence, where he can go.
- [28:13]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, Phil, where could you see him fitting in any European clubs? And I think we spoke about Wirtz before and I think it was Seb that said actually if he does end up leaving Leverkusen, there's a high chance he's probably leaving with the Xabi Alonso because Xabi Alonso knows he's got his lieutenant there and wherever he goes, he knows he'll get product out of him.
- [28:31]
Phil Hay
Yeah, it's great question this. And Bayern seemed desperate to sign him and while their system isn't the same as as Leverkusen, Leverkusen tend to have these, these two number tens in behind a A nine, which seems to me to be totally tailor made for. For vers. He'd readjust and he'd slot in no problem at Bayern and he'd instantly have more quality to, to feed from that area. But Manchester City feel like a very obvious fit. You know, they need their next Kevin De Bruyne or something in, in that mold. And, and after 10, you know, 10 fabulous years, de Bruyne is pretty much done there. You know that that is going to come to an end. I think the the odd cynic out there will ask whether Guardiola will would potentially system the flare out of Verts and you know, Allied Jack Grealish. But Guardiola does need given how much possession City having the way their games tend to shape up, Guardiola does need somebody who can un unpick a lock against deep lines and Vertz has certainly got that that talent. Just looking elsewhere in Europe, I don't feel like PSG's 433 is particularly made for him and I'm not really sure they're paying that sort of fee anymore either. He's going to be super expensive when when he does move eventually. And as it is at Real Madrid at the moment, I kind of feel the same. Although like you say, maybe it'll be Alonso who's in it Real Madrid or something like that. When Vertz decides to move Barca, do they really need somebody in that kind? Lewandowski is what, like 36 now? So at some point they're going to have to throw some big money up front and that's probably going to have to happen somewhere pretty soon down, down the line. But Liverpool interests me as well. I mean, again, I don't think they're perfectly set up for Verts to just drop into that team overnight, but if Mo Salah is leaving in the summer, then there'd have to be a little bit of a rethink you would imagine. And broadly, Salah leaves pretty big shoes to fill and that's going to demand a move into the kind of elite section of the of the transfer market. So I'm not saying that Wirtz and Salah are in any way identical because quite clearly they aren't. But, but Armor Slot will need exceptional attacking talent there.
- [30:32]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Okay, well, coming up next, we'll ask our club writers to name the talisman in the team they cover. This episode is brought to you by Indeed.
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Alex Pereira
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Alex Pereira
Terms and conditions apply. Hi, it's Alexa Weibel from New York Times Cooking. We've got tons of easy weeknight recipes and I'm gonna make two of my.
- [31:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Favorites for you today.
- [31:20]
Alex Pereira
For my five ingredient creamy miso pasta, you just take your starchy pasta water. Whisk it together with a little bit of miso and butter until it's creamy. Add your noodles and a little bit of cheese.
- [31:33]
Phil Hay
Mmm.
- [31:33]
Alex Pereira
It's like a grown up box of Mac and cheese. An easy weeknight recipe that feels like a restaurant quality dish. Next up, I'm making my vegetarian mushroom shawarmapitas. This recipe is just built for efficiency. You toss your mushrooms and red onion in your spices, throw them in the oven. By the time they're done, your sauce is ready, you've chopped your cabbage and you're ready to assemble. It feels crazy that something that tastes this complex and looks this colorful and beautiful is actually really easy to make and takes just 20 minutes of active time. It's just delicious. New York Times cooking has you covered with easy dishes for busy weeknights. Find these recipes and more@nytcooking.com Smells so good. This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. acemolera.
- [32:21]
Ayo Akimwaleri
So we asked a selection of our club writers to tell us who their talisman is. Let's have a listen. Given away by Quanta Hit by Fernandez.
- [32:33]
Phil Hay
Yes, I think if you ask any United supporter who's the best player of.
- [32:36]
Alex Pereira
The post Ferguson era, I'd be amazed.
- [32:38]
Phil Hay
99% didn't say Fernandes, and I'd probably.
- [32:40]
Alex Pereira
Argue that the other 1% haven't been.
- [32:43]
Phil Hay
Paying enough attention, to be honest.
- [32:44]
Alex Pereira
Right. It's 90 goals, 79 assists in 273 games in his United career so far, and a team that hasn't really lived.
- [32:51]
Phil Hay
Up to expectations at any point since he joined. He's always been the one setting the standard, and that's what made him the default choice as captain two summers ago.
- [32:59]
Alex Pereira
If they didn't have his presence, his ability and his leadership at all, it.
- [33:03]
Phil Hay
Kind of doesn't bear thinking just how.
- [33:05]
Alex Pereira
Much worse this could be. Kulasevski.
- [33:07]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Oh, would you believe it?
- [33:10]
Alex Pereira
Tottenham's talisman has to be Diane Kulasevski. For me, I think he's been their best player this season. I think he's he was one of the best players in the Premier League, certainly for the first half of the season. Although he looked a little bit jaded.
- [33:25]
Ayo Akimwaleri
In the last few months, perhaps understandably.
- [33:27]
Alex Pereira
Because he has played every single game for Tottenham this season. On the rare occasions that Kuluteski's been on the bench, they've had to bring him on in the second half because they haven't been good enough to win.
- [33:36]
Phil Hay
The game without him.
- [33:37]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Palmer takes it on and scores another Karl Palmer's vertical.
- [33:46]
Phil Hay
It was obvious when he was in his best rhythm and if anything, it's even clearer now that he's not that.
- [33:51]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Cole Palmer is Chelsea's talisman.
- [33:53]
Phil Hay
He is the rising tide that lifts all boats in this young team. He's the best finisher, also the best passer and overall, you would have to say the best decision maker in Enzo Maresca's squad, to the point where Chelsea's fortunes on any given day tend to hinge on whether he converts his chances or his teammates convert the ones that he creates for them.
- [34:19]
Ayo Akimwaleri
There is simply no one quite like.
- [34:21]
Alex Pereira
Him in the Premier League now.
- [34:22]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Odegaard, It's Bukayo. Saka It's a double for Saka. Speaking to you the morning after the.
- [34:31]
Alex Pereira
71 win in Eindhoven, in which for the first time in quite a long.
- [34:35]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Time, Martin Odegaard looked like Martin Odegaard.
- [34:37]
Alex Pereira
But it is indicative of this season's struggles both with injury and form subsequently.
- [34:43]
Phil Hay
That if you were to ask that.
- [34:45]
Alex Pereira
Question of who is Arsenal's talisman, It.
- [34:47]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Really feels like Saka because his levels.
- [34:50]
Alex Pereira
Of consistency ever since ever have been.
- [34:52]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Remarkable and the way he's been missed over these past few months with his.
- [34:57]
Alex Pereira
Hamstring injury are pretty extreme.
- [35:02]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Thanks Mark Critchley, Jack Pitt, Brook, Liam Toomey and Amy Lawrence as well. Bruno Fernandes, Kulisevski, Cole Palmer, Bukaya Saka nominated by our club writers and the one that stuck out for me there was actually Bruno Fernandes gents like, you know, I was reading the stat the other day, what? Since his debut five years ago, only Mohamed Salah and Kevin De Bruyne have more Premier League assists than Bruno Fernandes. I mean that's quite insane. But also when you look at this current crop of United players and this team and where they're at almost more often than not, he seems to be the shining light trying to drive this team forward and you always look at him, it just looks exhausted by the end of the game.
- [35:40]
Alex Pereira
It's getting all of those numbers as well, in spite of the fact that they are sort of struggling at the moment and have been for quite some time. So I think this links to the point I made at the very start about Odegaard, where it's almost he's working so hard and trying to do everything all at once that it actually then becomes to the cost of the team overall because he is pulling himself into positions that he maybe shouldn't be in, trying to be the one that is getting the crowd going. But it maybe speaks to the Manchester United overall structure that he's maybe pulling himself out of shape and then he's leaving space behind him. And then when the opposition counterattack, he's not in the position that he should be in as well. So you can't blame him for trying because he's got the ability on the ball certainly to perform those certain actions. But in the wider overall team structure, is he maybe putting his team at a slight disadvantage, but then it becomes cyclical again because if he didn't do it in the first place, then they'd maybe be in an even worse position. So I don't know the answer to it, but there's no doubt that he's putting everything on the line, put it that way.
- [36:38]
Ayo Akimwaleri
What's your echo to that list, Phil?
- [36:40]
Phil Hay
The only one that I would question really is Kulasevski. And not because I don't think he's been very good. I think there's probably a little bit of recency bias is the right way to put it. But Sonne has not had a great season. But for a long time he's been so influential at spurs and I think he massively falls into that. That category. Maybe at Old Trafford there would have been a flicker of time where you might have said Rashford, but it seems like a long time since. Since that was part of the conversation. And Palmer at Chelsea, Absolutely no doubt at all. And I think what Amy said there about Saka kind of feeds into my point about Odegaard, that I think there are probably players who would class as bigger talisman or talismans, if we're using that phrase, than. Than Odegaard, which is no slight on Odegaard because as I said, I really, really do rate. Saka has a little bit more of that quality.
- [37:26]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Mark, we left that Liverpool on purpose. And I know you're a Liverpool fan, but in your talisman tax piece, you know, Trent Alexander Arnold was much higher than Mo Salah. But also we can also think about Virgil van Dijk there. I mean, this is a team that you could arguably say has more than one talisman. Yeah.
- [37:45]
Alex Pereira
Which I think it speaks to their strength. You know, in recent seasons, specifically this season, I think that Trent was maybe slightly higher because I did. I won't get the technicalities of it, but I did include or I didn't take out set pieces there as well. So maybe it's because he has responsibility to take corners and free kicks to make things happen as well. But there's little doubt that Liverpool have got multiple threats and multiple players who have got the creative Responsibility which I think is crucial. The Virgil van Dijk thing. I'm probably going to answer a question that I'm going to create for myself here but especially with everything that's going on with contract situations etc. That mo salah has been incredible this season, do not get me wrong but in terms of maybe the importance of a player to come of hold the foundation of the rest of the team I would argue that Virgil Van Dijk is that player. He keeps the floor high shall we say. Whereas Salah sort of breaks through the ceiling and makes the ceiling high for Liverpool. And the way that I think of it is if he was to take either of them out of the team how would they get on? And Liverpool would have less attacking potency without Mohamed Salah in the scene. That's obvious. But I still think they would find ways to create chances.
- [38:50]
Ayo Akimwaleri
And Salah was injured for a while. Do you remember a couple of seasons ago and Liverpool found solutions to still get goals?
- [38:56]
Alex Pereira
I remember exactly, exactly to my point. But then you think about Virgil van Dijk being taken out of the team. That was a 20, 20, 21 season with his ACL injury and granted that's a few seasons ago now but Liverpool's performances fell like a house of cards and it was trying to sort of catch up with what had gone on. Much in the same way that we've got Rodri with Manchester City this season. So I'd argue that I don't want to get into the talisman tactic for this per se but I think that the, the crucial cog in the wider system is probably Virgil van Dijk in this case than Mohamed Salah. But of course please don't have any sound bites here. They're coming for you. They are both incredible footballers in the.
- [39:33]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Poll now on socials let's see what they say. They'll come for you. What Mark said there was really interesting is that it's the player that once they're out of that team you really notice a massive difference. And in that guise perhaps Van Dijk is the real talisman in this team.
- [39:47]
Phil Hay
It's pretty good way of putting it. You know who, who is missed most essentially. It doesn't totally capture what a talisman is about I don't think but it, but it goes, it goes pretty close. Liverpool are a great case study with this because you're automatically inclined to say Salah if he leaves. That looks and feels like the biggest toll before you give it, you know, deeper thought. But if you take out Van Dijk or you Take out Alexander Arnold, you lose him to Real Madrid. It'd be complacent to think that you just ride those departures, that you just move on and you find other people because they are pivotal in their own ways, in my opinion, probably more replaceable than Salah. I do think that. I think Salah is at that really extreme level of ability. But they're only replaceable if the club are willing to throw what it costs at the market. And whoever does go from that batch, it feels like Alexander Arnold definitely will. The other two, it's so much harder to read, but it's. It's a hell of a spine to replace.
- [40:49]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah, for sure. All right, let's move on. What about the players at the bottom end of the table? One Brazilian attacker in particular has stood out. He's had a go and scored a belter. Matthias Cunha at it again for Wolverhampton Wanderers. Matthias Cunha there with a stunning goal for Wolves against Bournemouth, which was also followed by a pretty bad case face of head loss as he was sent off for violent conduct. I mean, strange player, incredibly talented though, Mark, I gotta say now Cunha ranked third highest in your Talisman tax list and I know of recent. I mean he showed his worth for sure. A really key player for Wolves.
- [41:31]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, hugely, hugely. And it makes you think how they'll get on without him with the ban that he's undoubtedly going to have. And I think that Cunha was a really good example. I sort of focus on him quite a lot within the piece because he is one of those, like we said before about if you take them out, how will the, the team do. But also with. I don't want to get into speculation too much, but potentially if he were to move on from Wolves because he's had such a fantastic season, whether or not his skill set is as scalable. Sort of mentioned it before because if all roads lead to Matthias Kunya, from a shot perspective and a chance creation perspective, if he was to then play in a more of a equitable side where he was his creed, the creative responsibility was shared, paired around more evenly, would he get the same numbers? The answer might be yes, because he's maybe around more elite players and you'll find more space, etc. But that was kind of the main crux of the piece, was that for those players who are maybe going from, well, in this case a bottom half team to in the broadest sense, a top half team, looking at things like goals per 90, assists per 90 at a very, very basic level, how much is that to do with the fact that the player is themselves elite and over performing and how much is it? Because all roads lead to them and it is their responsibility to get a large chunk of their overall team's attacking output. So, of course, he's played for an elite side before in Atletico Madrid, of course. But I do think that is a question worth posing if teams are going to maybe look to recruit him in the summer.
- [42:54]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Yeah. As we've talked about the top end of the field now we're obviously talking about Wolves. Any other players in the lower part of the Premier League that you're seeing. The lap's been mentioned in terms of IP switch. Anyone else?
- [43:06]
Alex Pereira
Yeah, De Lapp is a good one. And similarly, I think a lot of roads for Ipswich lead to De Lapp. So again, you think about the scalability of his skill set. He's going to be highly coveted in the summer, you should imagine. So. I think it's another thing to consider with the goals that he's putting up and how much it is all leading to him. I think Tyler dibling Southampton as well. I think he's got the freedom to be able to try and make something happen as well. And I sort of see it like the Jack Grealish effect. He were to play at that, let's say a traditional top six side, that whether or not he'd have to have a little bit more discipline because I love watching him play and it's obviously in a Southampton side who are struggling as well. So he maybe looks like more of a bright spark because, you know, in relation to some of the play that they have. But I think he'd be maybe another one. It's not necessarily lower down the lead because they're having a fantastic season, but Brian Beaumont, Brentford, was on the list in the piece as well.
- [43:58]
Ayo Akimwaleri
And I think unsung hero, honestly, same thing player.
- [44:01]
Alex Pereira
He's putting up some fantastic numbers this year.
- [44:02]
Ayo Akimwaleri
He always has. And then he gets injured and then we don't see him for ages. But he's such a good player.
- [44:07]
Alex Pereira
Yeah. And again, I feel like I'm selling off all of these players, but I think he's raising the price. He's potentially deserving of a move as well. I think that people maybe sleep on just how good his numbers have been and his performances have been this season and to your point, have been for a couple of seasons now.
- [44:20]
Phil Hay
Yeah.
- [44:20]
Ayo Akimwaleri
What do you reckon, Phil?
- [44:21]
Phil Hay
Yeah, I had MBU on my list. He's come storming into that category. Just a slightly random one. Mark and I don't know what you'd think to this, but what about Bob at West Ham? Does he kind of make the cut? Just about, yeah.
- [44:32]
Alex Pereira
It's an interesting one, I think of the West Ham players I can check checks notes. I think that it's only Lucas Paqueta, which makes sense from a creative standpoint within this list, within the Talisman tags. But I completely take your point from a sort of stepping up and making sure that you get a goal in the crucial moments. That's more of the clutch player Talisman. I'd say that he'd probably be that person. And especially from the fan base, it's Bowen is that player, isn't he, that everyone thinks is. You know, even when West Ham haven't been performing, he gets a bit of an easy ride because they know that he's the one who's puffing his chest out to continue that phrase. I've used all episodes for sure.
- [45:08]
Ayo Akimwaleri
Honestly, gents, this has been such an enthralling conversation. Really appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much for your time, plus all our other writers who contributed today as well. That's it for now. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [45:19]
Alex Pereira
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.