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- [00:02]
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- [01:01]
Felipe Cardenas
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- [01:24]
Ayo Akimolere
The Athletic FC welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimwalere. 2026 World cup is almost set. Now with the World cup draw just around the corner, we thought it's a good time to see which countries are actually going to be heading to North America and also what a 48 team tournament actually looks like. So are you ready in with us today in the studio? We've got Jackpitt Brook. We've also go all the way from the United States, Felipe Cardenas as well. Look, the international break is over gentlemen and we know who 42 of the 48 teams are going to be in the next World cup, right? We're going to talk about some great stories because there have been some really great stories over the last few days. But first of all, I just want to get a sort of heatometer from the both of you. How are we both feeling about the World Cup? Felipe, what's going on?
- [02:19]
Felipe Cardenas
Listen, I'm, I'm, I'm getting excited. You know, I was not on the boat for, with the 48 team World Cup. You know, I still think it's going to be an experiment but I think this week proved that there's still plenty of drama, you know, in, in international football I, I'm one of those sickos that loves the international break. It's. It's what I most look forward to. And, you know, look at the stories with, with Scotland qualifying, you know, Ireland in, in the playoff. You go down to concacaf and the drama last, last night was, was incredible. You know, Honduras was, was close to being in. And an own goal, an own goal eliminated them. Haiti is in, Curacao's in. You know, I think that's the, the goal of the 4018 World cup is to have these new countries in. We just have to see if the product is going to hold up next summer.
- [03:07]
Ayo Akimolere
What's the heat feeling like in the United States? Are they ready? Especially for this big circus to come into town?
- [03:14]
Felipe Cardenas
You know, I've been asked that often. You know, is.
- [03:16]
Jordan Campbell
Is.
- [03:16]
Felipe Cardenas
Is the United States, Are they ready? Is there excitement? And, and I'm going to, I'm going to say, like right now, no, it's still. World cup fever has not hit the United States yet. But that's because, again, it's not a footballing country. There's so much going on right now in fall sports. You know, obviously the college football and NFL is dominating the headlines. The NBA has just started. But this is a country that is used to the big events, the big show. And as soon as June rolls around and the people here in the United States and I think just like everyone from the corporate sponsors to the hotels and the local cities, that that's when it's going to feel like, like the World cup is here. And I really do think that once the tournament begins, you're going to see the host nation, the US Be fully supported. You're going to have fans that have never been to a World cup excited to go. But right now I think it's still like a slow push towards June and towards that kickoff.
- [04:11]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, we've also got Mexico and also Canada also involved in this World Cup. But, Jack, so far, I mean, the home nations are looking quite interesting so far, aren't they?
- [04:19]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah, it's been an amazing week for Ireland, Scotland, Wales, obviously Scotland. I mean, the Wales game last night ended up being a complete walkover, really, against North Macedonia. But it means that they go into the playoffs with good momentum and good confidence after a pretty good campaign, I think, in a difficult group. But both the island and this and the Scotland games in the last few days have been absolutely spectacular. Like, I think both, you know, if you speak to Irish fans, they'll say that that 32 win against Hungary was their greatest football Moment know, for. For a generation, certainly, you know, this is going to be their first. If they get there. This will be their first World cup since 2002. So it's huge, you know, it's huge for them. And I think so many Irish fans have felt a sense of reconnection with that team after a pretty miserable few years.
- [05:04]
Ayo Akimolere
One last throw of the dice.
- [05:06]
Adam Crafton
It's all on this from Queen.
- [05:07]
Felipe Cardenas
Kelleher Scales is up after it. Scales wins the header. The chance. Oh, there's the goal. There's the goal.
- [05:15]
Ayo Akimolere
That's Troy Parrott.
- [05:16]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
That is unbelievable.
- [05:18]
Ayo Akimolere
He scored a hat trick.
- [05:19]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
And then Scotland last night with the tricks.
- [05:21]
Ayo Akimolere
And McTominay, Have you ever seen anything like that on the biggest stage of all?
- [05:33]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Like, it felt like the drama was heightened. Right. Because Scotland obviously needed. They needed to win, to go through. And even in, like, the 93rd minute, they were not. It was too all. And they were. They were going to the playoffs. And so for them to score those two late goals, obviously McTominay's overhead kick at the start, Scotland fans would themselves say this was their greatest moment for a generation. So taking those two stories together really underlines, I think, how international football can connect with people in a really profound way.
- [05:59]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, let's talk about Scotland as you've spoken about it, because Jordan Campbell was at Hampton.
- [06:04]
Jordan Campbell
Yeah. It's hard to actually believe that that was real. What we witnessed last night. I don't think I've ever seen three as incredible, momentous goals on the one night. Three completely different goals as well. But on such a big occasion. And I think coming into the game, everyone was either fearing that Scotland would find a way to not do it, or if they did, it would have been the scrappiest goal we've ever seen. I think for the overhead kick to come three minutes in, you were actually thinking, oh, we've done it too early. That sort of comes back to the Scottish psyche. That probably was in Hamden last night because it's been so long, 27 years, we've seen so many close calls. You think of England game in 2017 in World cup qualifying, You know, there was the Italy game back in 2007. There's a lot on your misses, a lot of scar tissue built up that people had convinced themselves that it wasn't going to happen. So to go ahead so early, it was always tough to see it out. And then you think, Shanklin's done it in the 78th minute and he's not. You've pulled back again. I Think the drama of it was just incredible. But I mean, the composure of Tierney and McLean to score those two goals is incredible. And, yeah, I don't think you'll see many better atmospheres anywhere in the world. And the Tartan Army, I think are going to make a huge impact in North America next summer. So, yeah, 10,010 days since Argentina 98, Scotland are back in. And yeah, they're very good at qualifying. Now they just have to learn how to be good at the tournament. So that's the next step.
- [07:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean, it's quite a miracle, isn't it? Because this is kind of what football is all about. You look at Kieran Tierney, who obviously been phased out by Arsenal, scores an absolute belter to kind of take the lead for Scotland. But then, I mean, at the halfway line shot and then McTominay's overhead kick. I mean, this is fairy tale stuff. Brilliant for Scotland. And I spoke to a few Scottish fans. They are so excited by this.
- [08:00]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess because of the age I am, I remember them being in Euro 96, then France 98. And so you kind of grow up assuming that Scotland would always be competitive in major tournaments. But they've had a pretty miserable time of it recently. Like they've got to Euros and not really made much of an impression, but to get to the World cup and in that manner as well. Like it was. The game was. The game had absolutely everything. It was so dramatic, it was so tense. There was some brilliant football played. You know, Denmark were good in spells. Maybe a little bit unlucky with the red card, but then maybe a little bit lucky with the penalty they got that Rasmus H scored. But yeah, overall I thought it was a really amazing night. And it's the kind of night that only international football can deliver, I think. I think club football can't. Club football just doesn't really connect with people in precisely that way. And that's true all the way around the world. And I think both the Scotland and the island games this week have been a sign of international football at its very best.
- [08:50]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, one of the other great stories from Tuesday night was also Curacao, the smallest nation now to qualify for the World Cup.
- [08:59]
Felipe Cardenas
Bispo gets the header out. Have done it.
- [09:03]
Ayo Akimolere
A blue wave is heading to the.
- [09:05]
Felipe Cardenas
World cup for the first time in their history.
- [09:09]
Adam Crafton
Curacao are World cup bounds.
- [09:13]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, Laurie Whitwell was there to see it happen and he sent us this report.
- [09:17]
Laurie Whitwell
Hi, guys. Laurie Whitwell reporting here from Kingston, where it has been a Dramatic night of World cup qualifying action that has finished with Curacao reaching usa, Mexico and Canada next summer. Because becoming the world's smallest ever nation to qualify for a World cup finals. Some 155,000, 180,000 people live there, depending on where you get your population sourcing from. On the other hand, Jamaica, absolute desolation for them. They felt that they could qualify tonight for the first time since 1998. They needed a win to do so. It ended 00. And that meant that Steve McLaren dramatically came into the press conference room after the match, read out a pre made statement, resigning as Jamaica head coach. He said that leadership is sometimes about taking responsibility. And he felt that stepping aside, allowing a fresh voice, would give Jamaica a boost ahead of their intercontinental playoffs in March. They still got a chance of qualifying, but it was all about tonight. 35,000 came to the national stadium. Really felt that this was going to be their moment. The excitement was palpable. The atmosphere was electric. And then the game happened. And it was a very scrappy encounter. Not many chances that were actually fashioned by moves. It was a lot of long balls and set pieces and awkward bounces that were creating the chances. Curacao had some Jamaica, though. Long throws. Hit the post, hit the bar, hit the post again, and then in stoppage time, they got awarded a penalty. Absolute bedlam. Chaos in the stands. This was when they were down to 10 men actually as well. So a dramatic finish to the game. Indeed. But then the referee was ordered to to the screens. The defender got touched the ball and Var intervened and it was ruled out. And then in the end, it finished nil. Nil. Yeah. Incredible scenes at the end. The Curacao fans ran onto the pitch in celebration, hugging the players. Absolute jubilation for those guys. Yeah. They'll be at the World cup finals for the first time in their history. Will Jamaica? We don't know. Steve McLaren won't be. He's resigned. Dramatic scenes from Kingston. Cheers, guys.
- [11:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Felipe. This is one of the stories really, isn't it? And this is, in my eyes, what I feel like the World cup should be all about. I know we've spoken about this in large format, but it's teams like this that make football feel special, surely.
- [11:24]
Felipe Cardenas
There's no doubt about it. I think it's. It's a. It's a wonderful story. I think the fact that they've pipped Iceland as the smallest nation to qualify for World cup is. Is what I think fans around the world, or anyone that's just reading the headlines are going to, to grab onto. But Curacao, you know, in concacaf, they've begun over the last few years, over the past few regional tournaments to, to make a little bit of noise, to just show is growing at that Caribbean island, you know. You know, Lori being there, I think can. He'll probably be able to answer this question even better. You know, there, there isn't an identifiable tactical identity to Curacao. You know, no one's talking about that. I think this is, they're, they're proving though that they're a team that when faced against the teams that are supposed to qualify from concacaf, Honduras, Costa Rica, Jamaica, they've proven to know how to face those teams, how to defend, how to defend the lead, how to defend a Curacao is an example of, I think the growth of football in the Caribbean. Certainly the fact that Jamaica is, is, is headed to the playoff, which I think you would expect Jamaica to, to be one of the teams that in a extended qualifying cycle, when you don't have Mexico, you don't have the United States, you don't have Canada. You know, I had Jamaica being one of those teams that was going to get an automatic qualifier. So Kurosawa, I think a huge story and, and really epitomized what happened in CONCACAF last night. You know, Steve McLaren resigning with Jamaica still having an opportunity to go to the World Cup, I think tells you everything about the pressure in some of these nations. You had Honduras, the Honduras manager, Reynaldo Ruela, the Colombian, in tears and absolute tears when Honduras was out of the tournament. In his post game press conference. Costa Rica, Costa Rica, a talented side who spent money on Miguel Herrera, the Mexican manager, to get them. He also was trying to hold back tears and admitting that he failed. So below Curacao are some big nations in CONCACAF that are supposed to be at this World cup and they're not.
- [13:33]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Going to be there.
- [13:33]
Felipe Cardenas
And we're going to be watching this Caribbean island, see if they can make history.
- [13:37]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I mean, another bunch of teams looking to steal hearts. First time as Cape Verde, the African team that Felipe was talking about, we've got Uzbekistan as well. Curacao, as we've just mentioned, Jordan as well, all qualified for the World Cup. Jack, we talk about this in large format. Is it about the fairy tale or does it also have a tendency to sort of dilute a World cup and make it less efficient, especially when you actually get into the tournament?
- [14:04]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah, I mean, from my point of view, my issue with the expanded size is not, it's not really Quality, per se. It's the competition, it's how the competition works. I think that having, like the best thing about tournaments, I think is having groups of four from which two teams go through because it puts pressure on every single game that you play. As soon as you allow, in this case, it's eight of the 12 third place teams will be going through to the last 32. As soon as you allow that, you take all the tension out of the group stages because it means that teams will just be going through routinely with like three points, four points. And I think one of the most exciting things in the World cup traditionally has been watching big countries mess up in the group stages and go straight home. And they're home within like a week or like 10 days. And we've had this, you know, this happened to Germany the last two times, happened to Spain when they were reigning champions in 2014. Obviously happened to England as well in 2014. And that fundamentally is my issue with the 48 team World Cup. Like, the group stages will be really boring because ultimately you're playing 72 games so that you can go from 48 teams to 32 teams.
- [15:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, let's talk about the players because the final Six nations to qualify will be decided in March 2026, with the draws for both the European and intercontinental continental playoffs taking place on Thursday. Now, the intercontinental playoff is super, super complicated. But in short, six teams are in. Two will make it to the World cup finals. These are the teams. New Caledonia, Dr. Congo at the expense of Nigeria, Bolivia, Iraq, Jamaica and Suriname. Oh, Suriname. Imagine Suriname making it to the World Cup. I mean, who would you guys like to see make it throughout that list? We'll start with you, Felipe, because I've just messaged Suriname. Come on, man, what a name that would be in the World Cup.
- [15:48]
Felipe Cardenas
That would be cool. That would be cool. That would be cool. Listen, I actually am a big fan of this intercontinental playoff. I really like it. I really do. I love the fact that it's going to be played in Guadalajara and Monterrey to host cities. You're going to have these nations in Mexico. And that is where I think we will be asking, is there World cup fever in Mexico? Are they ready to welcome some of these nations from so far away to play football in their country? You know, who would I like to see? Yeah, certain. That would be great. You know, I think for the vibes, it would be incredible. You know, I'm looking at Bolivia, you know, I follow them closely in South American qualifying and you know, they are always at the. In the basement of Como Bowl. They've not been to a World cup since 1994. They have traditionally been the punching bag in that region. And somehow they survived in this expanded qualification process to get to this point. And I think they believe they can get there. So I think Bolivia is going to be my 1. Watch out for them. Can they make it? And Iraq, I think Iraq, the way that they got to the playoff yesterday also was pretty incredible. Qualifying with a win over United Arab Emirates. The United Arab Emirates, who, if you looked at their starting 11, I think only three of the players were born in that country. And so that, I think, tells you about the future of international football as well. But still, it was Iraq. Iraq, who has not been to a World Cup, I believe, since 1986, is now fighting to get to this expanded tournament. So I think that tournament, that, that intercontinental playoff is going to be really fun.
- [17:25]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah. So I think my preference would be for Suriname and New Caledonia because they've never been to World cup before. Jamaica have been to one. Iraq has been to one. But I actually, you know what? I think that. I think I would probably go for Iraq because I. I watched the footage last night of that, I think, 98th minute. Was it 98th minute or even more than that, that penalty kick against the uae.
- [17:46]
Felipe Cardenas
Amir Al Amari, with the weight of.
- [17:48]
Jordan Campbell
Iraq's expectations on his shoulder, up.
- [17:51]
Ayo Akimolere
He steps up and he slots it away. He sends the goalkeeper the wrong way.
- [17:57]
Felipe Cardenas
And Iraq have done it. They've turned this game of football around.
- [18:01]
Jordan Campbell
And they are making it through into the intercontinental playoffs.
- [18:05]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
And I just thought that was a. A really special moment of the sort. We've been blessed with a lot of really special moments in the last week or two.
- [18:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, let's move on, because still, four European places up for grabs. Island and Wales made it through, as we mentioned earlier. We've got to talk about Italy, who are also in the playoffs. They've not qualified for either of the last two most recent World Cups. Coach Gennaro Gattuso said that qualifying was unfair on Europe. Well, does he have a point? Because AFC for Asia has only four of its 46 participating nations in the top 50. They get eight automatic places. Common bowl, which is spoken about. South America gets six places. CAF, which is Africa get nine places. UEFA are steaming ahead. Felipe with 16 places. I mean, where is he coming from here?
- [18:55]
Felipe Cardenas
What a ridiculous comment from Gattuso. Just completely out of touch with several facts about the realities of Italian football and the realities of international football. You know, for years, for decades, these Other confederations have been begging FIFA, give us another spot, give us one more spot. You know, South America used to have four, four spots just to get to the World Cup. It gets expanded to five with a playoff. And even there were complaints about that. The African nations, the Asian nations, like, you know, I think getting more of those teams, giving them opportunities to get to World cup is what makes the World cup special. Let's just get to the facts. Italy is a, is a bad team. They're a bad team.
- [19:37]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
It's amazing how little or how few like genuinely world class attacking players they've managed to bring through really since they won it in 2006. Like even, you know, they've continued to, you know, obviously Donna Rumma is a great player. Bastoni, Califiori. So they've got a great goalkeeper, they've got some really good defenders. But who, with the exception of Chiesa, who is the last top quality attacking player, there's no one.
- [20:00]
Ayo Akimolere
Let's move on. We need to talk. Yeah, we need to talk about Nigeria, man.
- [20:05]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
And no, boy, how upset are you? You must be, must have been pretty, pretty bad because Nigeria got really good players and so how can they not even be there?
- [20:14]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, that's a very good point. I wanted to talk about it because I needed to air this and just get it off my chest because this is yet again a bit like Italy, if I'm honest. Like, you know, that's two consecutive World Cups. Nigeria haven't qualified from. You're looking at a country of over 200 million people. And then you're thinking about the wider diaspora playing in top teams in top leagues across Europe. Look, players falling out with the nff, lack of fees being paid by the nff, a coaching merry go round, players going on strike. I mean, this is stuff we've seen for over the last 30 years. The biggest issue for me is that like some of the greatest moments, like the Golden Age, JJ Okocho, Elise, we're still hawking onto that, you know, like, and we didn't even win the World cup with that team. But we saw the potential of where African football was going. And now you're looking at other federations doing better with their squads, like Senegal, Ivory coast, look at Cape Verde and having a philosophy. Nigeria fundamentally don't have a philosophy. I don't know what the Nigerian style of play is. After all these years and all these great players, there is still so much tension with the organization that happens with Nigerian football. I don't even know where to start. And let's not even go into the fact that the coach ends the match against Dr. Congo saying it was all about juju, voodoo, black magic. I mean, that's the most obscene thing that I can think about. We should also say that the Nigerian manager apologized for the voodoo comment. All I can say is Nigeria will be forever be known as the country that has the best kits, but yet we don't win anything. All I've got to hold on to right now is afcon. Don't do me dirty, boys. Do not do us dirty. I rest my case. Thank you.
- [22:01]
Felipe Cardenas
Hey, I'll tell you who's really happy, unfortunately, that Nigeria is out of the World Cup. That's Argentina.
- [22:07]
Ayo Akimolere
Argentina has, I think Nigeria draws us every World Cup.
- [22:12]
Felipe Cardenas
But here's the stat.
- [22:13]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Here's the stat.
- [22:14]
Felipe Cardenas
The every World cup that Nigeria has failed to qualify for, Argentina has won. Oh, okay.
- [22:21]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, and we've had some great results against Argentina as well. When they've, when they've played each other. Yeah. Wow.
- [22:26]
Felipe Cardenas
Yes.
- [22:27]
Ayo Akimolere
That's incredible.
- [22:28]
Felipe Cardenas
And so, and so in Argentina, as soon as Nigeria was out that that stat made the rounds in social media, it was getting all kinds of, it went viral. And the Argentines are like, we're winning back to back tournaments because Nigeria is out. I, I, it's like, you know, especially in the United States, if you remember USA 94, that was where Nigeria made. They were the darlings.
- [22:48]
Ayo Akimolere
They were the beauties.
- [22:49]
Felipe Cardenas
They were the darlings. We loved that team.
- [22:52]
Ayo Akimolere
Can I also just say congratulations to Egypt, Senegal, South Africa, Ghana, Cape Verde, Morocco, Ivory Coast, Algeria, Antonisia, who all deserve to be there and potentially Dr. Congo.
- [23:02]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
I mean, for me, this is the beauty of international football, right, Is that, you know, if within the African context, for example, obviously Nigeria is a massive country, but they can't, you can't buy the players that you might need. And so it puts a lot more responsibility and pressure on the coach to find the right solutions himself. Because obviously in club football, if you need a right back, you go and buy a right back. And if you're the richest team, you buy the best one. Because club football is so determined by money now. International football has this amazing kind of unviability to it. It has this purity to it where it is just much more to do with what solutions can the coaches find. Do they change a player's position? Do they come up with a new tactical plan? Can they get a bunch of players to massively outperform how good they normally are, knowing that it's probably easier to kind of giant kill in international football than it is in club football. Both the successes of smaller countries and the failures of bigger countries. I mean, you need both of those two things and if you bring them together, you get this kind of magical competitiveness that international football will always retain. Even while I think it's basically been kind of driven out of the club game.
- [24:08]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, I think, I think Jack is right. But also on that, Felipe, isn't it tricky for certain countries? We talk about Cape Verde, we talk about maybe Nigeria, I mean even Senegal or whatever. Is that often the top brass for many of these countries are probably, especially across the diaspora, going to potentially play for a European team. You look at Bukaya Saka, he's a Nigerian, plays for England, you know, Ezequiel, he's Nigerian, plays for England. It's a stronger setup and there's a higher chance that you possibly might be going to the bigger tournaments in world football.
- [24:39]
Felipe Cardenas
Yeah, I think unfortunately for the Nigerian national team, yeah, there's so many Nigerian born players or that have the, the generational links to the country that they could play for them and they've chosen to play for other nations. You know, you mentioned those two players that play for England and like those are top, top players, you know, like, would they be the difference? I don't know. Maybe if you put them in the Nigerian setup, they fall into the same trap that the current players are in. You know, they're upset about the federation, they don't like the hotel they stayed in. You know, they don't get along. You know, it's, it's, you know, I don't want to opine without having everything in front of me, but from a distance you think Nigeria, you know, even without those players, they have enough quality to be at a World cup and so you can only point the finger at them.
- [25:24]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, let's move on because we'll get back to the teams who are actually going to the World Cup.
- [25:32]
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- [28:12]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah Jack, let's talk about England now. Your specialist subjects. One of the favourites to win this year. I mean the record coming into this is quite extraordinary. Eight wins in the World cup qualifying matches without conceding a goal. Much has been made of the style of football that Thomas Tuchel is trying to play, but it's a pretty special record.
- [28:33]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah, yeah, it's been really good. I think the performances weren't always there. Performance has definitely improved over the course of this campaign. Like it really kicked off with that big 50 win in Serbia in September, which was their hardest game and they were really, really good that day and they never really looked back. I just think there's a lot of experience in this England team now and they've got an incredibly strong spine. You know, Pickford's been playing in goal for years. John Stones, when he's fit, remains I think one of the best center backs in Europe. Whoever he's playing alongside. If that's Gahey or Concert, both incredibly well established, experienced Premier League players. If you stick Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson in front of them, that's such a strong spine to the team. So I think that England will be really, really robust at the World Cup. The question is, can they make their most? Can they make the most? They're like high quality players.
- [29:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, but that's the other thing, is that you've spoken about fitness. I mean, Harry Kenny was at the last World Cup. He was carrying an injury or maybe even the one previous to that. This is the big one, isn't it? Considering that England have got this plethora of talent, but key players staying fit coming into this has to be it.
- [29:31]
Jack Pitt-Brooke
Yeah. For me, this is the most important thing is, does Pickford stay fit? Does Stone stay fit? Does Rice stay fit? And then finally, most importantly, does Harry Kane stay fit? Kane's been kind of unlucky because he's never missed a major tournament, but he had a small injury coming into the Euro 2024, which I think affects his mobility. He picked up a foot injury right at the start of the 2022 World cup in Qatar. He. I don't think he looked fully fit in Euro 2020. Looked exhausted by the, by the knockouts, really, in 2018 World Cup. So even though he's got an amazing record in tournaments and for England, I'd love to see him. I'd love to see him at his best, like, moving at his best, playing at his best over the course of a tournament. Because if he can do that, I think he'll be one of the best, the best players at the World Cup.
- [30:15]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, well, we have to move on to the US Men's National Team. Felipe currently ranked 15th. World. Firstly, I just want to get this off my chest. I'll be keeping my eye on it. You and Pochettino. What's going on here? Best buds. What's this all about?
- [30:29]
Felipe Cardenas
Oh, I went viral. Right? I went viral. Listen, I don't know how that happened. You know, there was a match day, minus one presser with, with Pochettino before this, this friendly here in Tampa against Uruguay, and he took a question from a Spanish language journalist that I actually agreed with with Pochettino. I thought it was a bit confrontational from the journalist. It was a bit. There was a bit of grandstanding. He was bringing up issues from, from, you know, four or five, six months ago that, that, that I agree with Pochino that have been resolved in terms of the team culture and Everything. And so, you know, Pochettino got a little upset about it and I just happened to follow up like I was the next question. Like after this tense, like seven minute discussion between Pochettino and this journalist, they hand me the mic, he's looking at me and I'm like, you know, how are you going to attack Uruguay tomorrow? That was all I said. After an emotional win, what are you going to do? And he goes off in this rant again and in the end the press officer says, you know, I would be willing to, to sacrifice Felipe here if that's going to make you happy. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. I like Felipe. He's in my starting 11 no matter what. And so it was, it was a bit of, of comic relief in, in what I think has been, you know, a pressure filled journey to get to a point for where the US Is looking like a team that is together before they co host a big, big tournament, a massive tournament in a World Cup. And so, you know, they came off a win over Paraguay, a sleepy Paraguay side that I think was still, you know, trying to find a couple players that, that, that are going to really refine that team. And here I am in Tampa talking to you guys after the United States have just completely shattered a strong Uruguay side led by Marcelo Vielsa, Mauricio Pochettino's mentor. The US defeated them 5:1 with a lot of players that are secondary players. And so, you know, I think that proves that the US is finally at a point where I think they know who their strongest players are, they know the depth that they have and they're going to be well supported next summer, Without a doubt.
- [32:33]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. I mean it was really interesting because I was looking at the lineup of the US Men's national team against Uruguay and there are some names that some might say weren't probably household names for that team. Have any players come out in this last sort of few games where you'll think actually they're knocking at the door here, they might just see themselves playing, potentially playing a part in the World Cup?
- [32:55]
Felipe Cardenas
Yes, but careful, you know, don't refer to these players as second teams or that they're not regulars because it took a lot. He was completely offended and felt disrespected that a reporter referred to this team that he put out there last night, which nine changes from the team that played Paraguay. He was offended that this, that we were referring to these players as not regular starters. But that's the fact of the matter, you know, between just Rodrigo Betancourt de Raskayeta, the great midfielder for Uruguay, and Ronald Araujo, the Barcelona center back. Just between those three players, they had more caps than the starting 11 for the United States. And so that tells you the level of experience that Pochettino put out on the field. And then it proved that there is an identity being formed. The play was pretty smooth and fluid from these players. A lot of them are coming from Major League Soccer, a lot of them are in Europe and perhaps not starting or not at big clubs and they're fighting for a place. And I think they took it to Uruguay, a team that, you know, they looked fatigued, they look like they may not believe in Marcelo Bielsa anymore. And the heroes on the night were players like Sebastian Burhalter. We all remember that last name. His father was the coach at the last World Cup. He was then fired after the Copa America last year or yes, last summer when the United States crashed out in the group stage. And he, with that last name is really battling with, with some. With, with headlines, you know, is. Could you imagine a play, you know, the son of the former manager at the next World cup under a different manager and Sebastian Bral with a goal and assist, you know, very well taken goal. If you remember Tony Cruz's goal from the World cup in 2018, that free kick, it was similar to that, that.
- [34:45]
Ayo Akimolere
What'S the mood around this, this team and performing, I wouldn't say winning, but performing decently in the World Cup.
- [34:51]
Felipe Cardenas
The mood is much better today, honestly. I think they're on four, almost five games that they haven't lost. So an unbeaten run that has, I think turned the tide. Five goals against a comable side. A good comable side in Uruguay, I think, you know, levels up the, the, the, the excitement around this team. They've come together and I think a lot of the pundits were against the, the, the, the personality of the team and like diva mentality that some of the players like Weston McKinney, Christian Pulisic, G Reyna perceived to have and they've been humbled. And now I think they're going to go to this World cup and, and try to really make history.
- [35:28]
Ayo Akimolere
Okay, nice. Let's move on because we're going to leave the football there and actually talk about much more bigger issues looming over the World cup. As Adam Crafton joins us next.
- [35:45]
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- [37:22]
Host/Producer
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayo Akimolera.
- [37:27]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, welcome Adam Craft. And good to have you with us. We've gone this far, mate, without talking about Cristiano Ronaldo, because Ronaldo met with Donald Trump at the White House on Tuesday in his first high profile appearance in the United States for over a decade. I mean, what was going on there?
- [37:42]
Adam Crafton
Well, over the past decade or over the past few.
- [37:45]
Ayo Akimolere
Past few days, what happened at the party?
- [37:48]
Adam Crafton
Yeah, I think, look, over the last couple of days you've had a really high profile visit from the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. And then there was a dinner last night where the US Invited, I guess, what President Trump would describe as leaders in their field, very rich businessmen. So you have people like Elon Musk and a lot of the kind of founders of very big funds. And that is kind of now the world. Cristiano Ronaldo appears to want to reside in this world of very powerful politicians, strongmen, politicians, the rich, the famous. He was probably maybe Donald Trump aside, the most famous man in the room, maybe. Is he more famous than Elon Musk? You'd probably say yes. So he brings with him a cachet. I mean, one of the things actually Trump said was how impressed his son was because his son Baron is a big soccer fan. So Trump kind of jokes that his son was impressed with his dad. That's kind of the explanation of the past 24, 48 hours. I think over the past few months, you've seen this kind of, of distant flirtation from Ronaldo with Trump. He was actually used by, I think it was the European Commission when they had a meeting with Trump a few months ago and a signed shirt was handed over and kind of it was like this message of Mr. President fighting for peace, et cetera. Because the message Trump appears to want to give the world is he's the president of peace. He's the president who ends all these wars. I think it's probably a different podcast how true that that may or may not be. Since then, he did an interview with Piers Morgan a couple of weeks ago where he started talking about how MBS in Saudi is his boss. Obviously Al Nassr, the Saudi pro league team, is owned by, majority owned by the Saudi sovereign wealth fund pif. MBS is the chair of the board. We sometimes talk differently about who owns, you know, who these teams owners are, etc. But that's the nub of it. And you know, he also, you know, he said he wanted to meet Trump, that he wanted to sit down with someone who has, you know, the power to make change. Ronaldo talked about how difficult he finds it to watch the news, how sad it makes him. He appears to believe that Donald Trump can make watching the, watching the news an easier experience. People in the United States may have different views on that. So, so yeah, I mean, that's the kind of background to the visit. There is a much broader background around the fact that he's not been in the United States for the past 10 to 12 years. I think also, I mean, it is worth just explaining the background on Ronaldo where I think for a long time, since this World cup was awarded in 2018, I think there has been a huge degree of uncertainty about whether Ronaldo would play in this tournament. And that's partly because of his age. Not many 40 year olds are starting up front in tournaments. We'll see if that actually happens in the summer. But, but also because there has been, you know, this, the shadow of the allegations that have been made against him in, in the United States. And you know, he's not played in the United States, I think, let me just get this right. Since 2014, August 2014, that was a friendly that Real Madrid played against Manchester United. It got a huge, huge attendance in Michigan. It was over 100,000 at the college football stadium. And it was almost like a Ronaldo fest because it was Manchester United, American fans who wanted to see Ronaldo. Obviously he'd left the club back then, but also Real Madrid as well. But since 2017, when the German newspaper Der Spiegel reported the alleged sexual assault, assault by Ronaldo on a model, Catherine Mayorga, we should say Ronaldo has always strenuously denied and charges haven't been brought against him. But the reality is Ronaldo has not been photographed in the United States since then. He had some conversations about joining MLS before he went to Saudi, going to Sporting Kansas City. So I think it's never been a situation where why he's thought, I can never come here.
- [42:06]
Ayo Akimolere
Adam, let's talk about FIFA, because, you know, the ticket pricing controversy is really fascinating. This sort of dynamic pricing, right, to buy tickets at an unknown cost. Have FIFA got this wrong in terms of this potentially being, I would say, the most expensive World cup for fans in particular?
- [42:26]
Adam Crafton
Depends who you ask, because, I mean, there's never been more tickets sold so quickly. If you believe what President Trump and Gianni Infantino were saying in the White House on what day is it? On Monday, I think Gianni was saying almost 2 million tickets sold already, and that's before people even know what the fixtures are. So you're going to get more and more of these price jumps, I imagine, after the games are confirmed draw on December 5th. I don't think there's been much opposition within the United States to this dynamic pricing model by FIFA. And by that I mean kind of organized opposition, whether it's fan groups or politicians or other stakeholders. I mean, people don't like it, but no one really seems to do anything about it. Not in the way that you get in Europe, for example, where there'll be kind of protester games and stuff like that. I think you have to remember dynamic pricing is very much part of life here. Rightly or wrongly, it's the way it is for concerts and things like that. I mean, it also rebounded on FIFA pretty spectacularly at the Club World cup, where you ended up with the demand not being there and tickets being like $11 for semi finals of the greatest club competition in the world in there. So therefore, that's what FIFA would say. It's the market. It's what the market is used to here. But I think the only real voice has been the new mayor of New York City. And that was during his campaign where he decided Zoran Mamdani was calling for more tickets to be set aside for local residents at discounted rates. He was asking for no dynamic pricing for fixed price tickets. These are all things, by the way, that FIFA have done at previous World Cups. These aren't, to use Trump terms, these are not radical communist lunatic suggestions. These are very, very standard FIFA things that just aren't being done here. And I think that's fundamentally because FIFA are treating the US to use a Don Garber quote. What he's said so many times over the past few years is that there are organizations that come in and treat America like an atmosphere. Yeah. And I think that's what FIFA are doing here. But the people in power in America seem quite happy about that.
- [44:53]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah, Americans used to dynamic pricing, Felipe, but there's also an international market here. People coming from Carousel, for instance, Cape Verde. I mean, how they want to see their team too, right?
- [45:04]
Felipe Cardenas
Yeah, yeah. You know, I said this earlier last year that I truly believe, I still believe it. I think that this next World cup should be a World cup for the South American teams. It should be South America's World cup because the proximity from just, just a distance perspective, the fact that when Colombia plays here, Argentina, you know, even Ecuador, and I think Paraguay and Uruguay, they're so well supported, you know, there's so many Colombian Americans and Argentines and South Americans and international, you know, football fans that are here that want to go to the support those, those teams. You look at Copa America in 2024, it was the, it was what I think organizers would love to see next summer when you had this traveling band of Colombian fans mingling with the Argentine demographic in South Florida and really filling these stadiums, the Club World cup, you know, the Flamengo fans, the Palmeiras fans, they really brought a lot of energy to the stands because when you, when you go to a football match in the United States, it's culturally so much different. Different. You know, you don't see the, the, the, the, the, the, the waving flags and, and just like the passion of football in Europe and South America. And so you want those fans here. You know, the immigration policies I think are going to be a deterrent for a lot of these countries, for a lot of these fans. But there, there's, I think there's still going to be so many people that can afford it and that will do anything possible to jump on a flight certainly from, and South America to get here. Now, are they prepared Are they prepared to, to pay what these ticket prices are going to require? You know, I talked to friends in Colombia and it's not just the pricing. They're utterly confused by the process of getting tickets, you know, signing up for a draw. You may get chosen, you may not get chosen, you know, be better, wake up at 8am on the 27th of November to try to get tickets. It's like, it's difficult.
- [47:07]
Adam Crafton
I mean, just on those points around the immigration policies, I mean, Haiti qualified last night. They are subject to a travel ban from the United States. There are exemptions for athletes coming to World Cups and federations and I think maybe immediate relatives. But Haiti are going to be in a World cup and their fans, I don't think are going to be able. Most of them aren't going to be able to come. Come Iran, similar situation. You know, I would say there are a lot of Iranian Americans, there's a lot of Iranians who already live in America. So you will see representation there. But it's not, it's not what FIFA got the United States to sign up to when they did the bid. You know, many years ago, there was a concession of, of sorts that FIFA got on Monday where they got these like a commitment from the United States to have expedited visa appointments for individuals coming from other parts of the world. And this has been a big problem for FIFA over the past year. You have, if you are, for example, in Colombia, you could be waiting 12 months just to get an appointment through a visa to come and visit the United States. In Ecuador, I think it's 11 months. Morocco's had long wait times. Even Argentina and Brazil actually had really long wait times. And it's largely being dealt with by. Before Biden left, they put in around $50 million into kind of increasing consular services around it. And that's definitely helped in places like Argentina and Brazil. But some of these wait times in other countries are really long. So they've now announced this new things called the FIFA Pass. That means if you've got a match ticket, you have an expedited appointment. I think that is a concession for FIFA. I also think it would have been pretty absurd for the United States not to do this. I don't think it's. I had messages from some people at FIFA this week saying, see all this stuff that Gianni's been doing, all this stuff he's been saying to Trump, all the stuff that FIFA have been doing to kind of ingratiate themselves, integrate themselves into the White House, it's all Justified, because we got this one long concession. And I think the reality is, you know, stuff like the federal government providing funding for security services, stuff like ensuring that fans are able to have a visa appointment after buying a match ticket is like bare minimum.
- [49:32]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, I was hoping to end this with some sort of optimism ahead of the world. Now you've naturally brought us back down to realism. Exactly. I'm being serious. No, no, I think, I think it's worth talking about because I think there's still a lot of moving parts here to the World cup. And I think, you know, on one side we're talk about, you know, American fans getting to see it. But let's not underestimate just how geopolitics can also affect fans from global spaces coming to enjoy what America and FIFA would class as the greatest show on earth. So I think it's really worth talking about it.
- [50:05]
Adam Crafton
But, but this is also why, I mean, my theory on this for a while has been that I think there's a lot of people in. In power in America who wouldn't really mind if this just turns out to be a tournament largely for people already in the United States. You know, there's over 300 million people here. You could sell out this tournament without that many people actually coming. That's not what the host cities want. They want the big economic impacts that you get from people flying in. But, you know, and it's still tbd, I guess, on Ireland and Italy, but if you get Ireland and Italy qualifying, in addition to some of these other countries, you know, from South America, Central America, that already have huge diasporas here, it would still look fantastic and it would still look like a huge success, but it would be a very diminished kind of idea of what a World Cup, I guess, has historically been.
- [50:58]
Ayo Akimolere
Well, look, the World cup draw is on the 5th of December. Head to the Athletic FC podcast on YouTube straight after, where we'll be reacting live. Felipe, I know you're going to be coming to London, aren't you?
- [51:10]
Felipe Cardenas
Yeah. We're going to know so much that day. Every. All the clarity is going to come full, full picture. Where are they playing? Who the who, you know, what do the matchups look like? What host city's got the better teams or the bigger teams? So really excited to be part of that.
- [51:23]
Ayo Akimolere
Yeah. Make sure you get that in your diaries right now. Right. Jack, appreciate your time. Adam, thanks for joining us and also Felipe as well. Thank you guys for listening. Are you ready for the World Cup? We'll catch you soon.
- [51:37]
Host/Producer
You've been listening to the Athletic FC Podcast. The producers are Guy Clark, Mike Stabre and Jay Beal. Executive producers are Abby Patterson and Adie Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC Podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC Podcast is an athletic media company production.
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