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- [00:02]
Adam Leventhal
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Adam Leventhal
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Adam Leventhal
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Host/Presenter
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James Horncastle
NMLS 696891.
- [01:50]
David Ornstein
The Athletic FC
- [01:55]
Host/Presenter
from the city that never sleeps. Especially now that Argentina are in town. It is the day of the World cup final. We've had smoke, we've had rain and now we have this vibrant atmosphere from the Argentina fans who are willing Lionel Messi to win back to back World Cups. Can they do it or will it be Spain who get their second star first title for 16 years? Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Adam Leventhal. Hi there and welcome once again to Acast Studios here in New York. We are live once again on YouTube. So who is going to be getting their hands on this World cup trophy? We've got loads of build up to come. Also after England finished third and beat France 6 4. Crazy game. Has that changed anything for the fans? And speaking of changes, David Ornstein is going to be here later in the studio, breaking down a huge transfer exclusive. Chelsea have reached a verbal agreement with
- [03:03]
David Ornstein
Aston Villa to sign Morgan Rodgers. They made a bid worth 117 million
- [03:09]
Host/Presenter
pounds, 1 million more than Manchester City pay.
- [03:12]
David Ornstein
Nottingham Forest for Elliot Anderson.
- [03:14]
Host/Presenter
That was accepted by Villa and they're now in the process of finalizing the move. So David is going to be here in the studio a little bit later on, but right here, right now, on the sofa of knowledge is Adam Crafton. How are you?
- [03:28]
Adam Leventhal
I'm good. I'm quite tired at the end of a long tournament, but excited for the final.
- [03:34]
Host/Presenter
Excellent. And making your first appearance in this studio, James Horncastle. How are you?
- [03:39]
James Horncastle
I'm very well, thanks, Adam. Nice to be back in New York. Yeah, it's great with the two Adams.
- [03:43]
Host/Presenter
Yeah, a lot of Adam in the studio. So. So we're asking for your thoughts today ahead of the final. Fire them in. Fire in your questions to James and Adam. Also to David a little bit later on. I'll give you a reminder when he's in the studio. But we are obviously focused right now on previewing the World Cup Final. And after the smoke from the wildfires, we've now moved on to rain. But actually now a little bit of a calm in New York, a coolness ahead of the final. It feels like a nice atmosphere heading into this final, doesn't it?
- [04:19]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Could definitely have been a lot worse, weather wise, temperature wise. I think it's good. It's just fine. It's fine. Ignore everything. It's fine would be my sense of kind of how everything looks today.
- [04:31]
Host/Presenter
How disruptive do you think Spain having their training session cancelled yesterday is going to have on their final preparations, James?
- [04:39]
James Horncastle
Well, the athletics fibre side game went ahead, so I know it did, didn't it? Look, I think it will be disruptive in terms of if they were planning any kind of shadow play, but this is a team that might have welcomed a little bit extra rest, given how since the knockout stages began, you've gone from having these quite big spaces between games to having very few days between games. They know each other inside out. I think the only point is that they'll need is the pointers that they'll get from the video sessions. So I'm inclined to say it's not gonna be that disruptive.
- [05:15]
Host/Presenter
Yeah. And obviously you saw at the top of the show, I was in Times Square yesterday and I know a few people commenters have saying, stop going to Times Square. You could not avoid going to Times Square yesterday due to the amount of Argentine fans that were There, it's literally like the whole of Argentina is in New York. Just sort of give us a taste of the atmosphere, because the Spanish fans, they congregated at Madison Square Garden, so we haven't forgotten about them. But there is a buzz, isn't there?
- [05:43]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, and I think the buzz is far more from the Argentine side. There's just a lot more of them. The Spanish don't really travel, you know, even for club football, you don't get loads of Real Madrid fans going to La Liga, away games and things like that. So I don't think there is that culture in quite the same way as clearly for the Argentines. What you have is this big diaspora in the United States that is then topped up by people who obviously traveled for the final. I mean, it's unclear how many of them will have tickets for the final and how many of them are now just here to, you know, be part of it and possibly be part of celebrations, et cetera. But then I think there's also. I think a lot of Americans have become messy fans. So actually sometimes you'll see people walking down the street with a messy jersey and you presume it's an Argentine, but actually it is someone from Westchester or someone from Queens, you know, So I think that's an interesting thing.
- [06:38]
Host/Presenter
We can have a lot more ahead of the final to come. But there was some unexpected excitement yesterday for. For England fans. Crazy game in Miami. They won the bronze medal. They beat France 6 4, which is crazy in itself. Jackpit Brook was there. Let's just get his take on it.
- [06:54]
Adam Leventhal
England finished their World cup campaign here
- [06:57]
Host/Presenter
at the Miami Stadium on Saturday with a 64 win in the bronze final over France, meaning that England officially finished third. They got their bronze medals. And as Thomas Tuchel reminded us afterwards, this is now England's second best ever World cup campaign. It's the first time They've won this third, fourth place playoff game, having lost it in 1990 and in 2018, it's
- [07:17]
Adam Leventhal
their best ever World cup on foreign soil.
- [07:20]
Host/Presenter
So I think in an objective sense, this has been a really good World cup for England. If you ask most England fans before the tournament how they would feel about coming third, beating France in the playoff, beating Mexico away at the Azteca Stadium, beating Norway in the quarterfinals and extra time, I think people would say it's pretty good. The question, I think, going forward is to what extent does the objective facts, which I think are in Thomas Tuchel's favour, balance against the real pain and anger and frustration with the second half of the semi final against Argentina. England had one foot in the World cup final and they threw it away. And people are really upset about that. You can see even the players in the England staff and Thomas Tuchel have been affected by the emotions from Wednesday night and after they've spoken very openly about how much it's hurt them. Thomas Tuchel has repeatedly called it a scar, which keeps getting worse. And I think the big question really, going into the Nations League campaign, which starts in September, is how the England public feels. Do they feel that this has been a good campaign and they're proud of how the players did and Tuchel did and they'll be positive in their support, or are they still going to be angry at Thomas Tuchel and is that going to be a running issue through the autumn? So, yeah, thanks to Jack for that. It does raise some interesting questions after that game. 64 to England. Bukayo Saka with a hat trick looked really good on the break, didn't he? You know, attacking with pace and being able to carry the ball up the pitch. Or am I reading too much into this?
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Adam Leventhal
Probably the game itself, but, I mean, I do find it strange that he's able to play that game at that level but none of the game on, you know, three days earlier, and he
- [09:05]
Host/Presenter
said, I would have loved to have played a bigger part. I'm fit. It makes it difficult for Tuchel, doesn't it?
- [09:09]
Adam Leventhal
It makes it difficult for all of us. I would say, you know, when you think back to the Argentina game and. And also just what I would say is I don't think his form had been that good leading into the Argentina game. You know, he wasn't one of those players, I have to say, sort of watching where I was like, I wish we had him on the pitch in the form that he'd shown prior, but obviously then the form that he showed yesterday and I think having less pressure clearly played a part in that. France's defence being possibly on Miami Beach a long way away.
- [09:41]
Host/Presenter
The intensity was not there, was it,
- [09:42]
Adam Leventhal
at all, in the game. Someone sent me a text saying it was like Champions League final mixed with soccer aid. And that's a bit what it felt like in terms of the names on show, but the tempo that was being played.
- [09:54]
Host/Presenter
And James, let me put this to you. He was asked Thomas Tuchel after the game by our colleague Felipe Cardenas about has that result helped rebuild the trust in him? And Thomas Tuchel basically said, well, he started off by saying, I don't need to rebuild the trust in me.
- [10:10]
James Horncastle
After this game was Felipe Gabriel Clark in his choice.
- [10:13]
Host/Presenter
He was, he was. You know, the trust hasn't been lost after 30 minutes. But then by the end of his answer, he did say by the Nations League games, which starts in September and they have to play Spain, of all teams that we will need to rebuild the trust. Has the trust gone for you as a sort of an outside observer?
- [10:30]
James Horncastle
I think there are a couple of echoes from this tournament. One is the Azteca, which people will remember and talk about for a long, long time, and the other is the final 20 minutes against Argentina. And I think that's where he has to rebuild the trust, predominantly with the fan base, I think, because the reaction to that, the feeling that he wasted that opportunity, that he was primarily responsible for it, with the changes that he made, I think really meant that people lost a lot of confidence in why we are hiring a coach of that profile, paying him that salary, and he didn't deliver. I'm not sure yesterday's result or a strong Nations League campaign. You know, I remember interviewing Roberto Martinez before the tournament and Roberto won the Nations League in the summer and was like, it's the biggest nations league ever. 10 games. We beat Germany, we beat Spain. And whenever I would bring that up, the reaction with colleagues would be, nobody cares.
- [11:34]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, Cristiano cared.
- [11:35]
James Horncastle
Cristiano cared. And the Portuguese Football Federation cared because they, they could show off the trophy in there in their headquarters. But I know two years is a long time and until the next tournament and these four week international breaks, I think as much as World cup fever has been great and people would like to make it last all year when Premier League starts and then all of a sudden fans find out that international breaks are longer. Yeah, like four weeks. I think they'll be even more restless with Tuko. It's like, why are you getting in the way of our Premier League football?
- [12:11]
David Ornstein
Exactly.
- [12:11]
Host/Presenter
Especially when they lo the first game against Spain as well, potentially, I think
- [12:15]
Adam Leventhal
the only way he can really fix it is by winning the Euros. And that's a really long way away. So, like the only way he can really arrest that feeling of what happened, as raw as it still is, is actually by then winning a semi final. So that is, you know, what? Possibly just under two years away. So that's a long time until then, where basically we'll all always be the question, you know, it will always be the question. Every time anyone has an extended amount of interview time with him, I mean, he's going to get really annoyed. He's already kind of offended by the notion that he has to answer for this and I think he's probably going to be asked it 50 times between now and the Euros.
- [12:57]
Host/Presenter
So, 3pm Eastern time, 8pm back in the UK, the European champions and the world's second best team, Spain, take on the top ranked Copa America and world champion side, Argentina. Let's start with Spain. They want their second star, first for 16 years, since they won it in 2010. I went to Rodri's press conference on Friday and he said that they're obviously a very different side to they were then. How do you sum up this Spanish team?
- [13:27]
Adam Leventhal
They are kind of everything Argentina aren't. And that's what makes it a really exciting game. They're sort of surgical and they're cold and they are rational and every other synonym that I'm gonna just throw out of that because they are. They have their plan, they have a star in Yamao, but they've not depended on him. I don't think in the tournament. He is kind of a cog in their wheel rather than kind of the wheel. And then you have Argentina who are hot and emotional and I don't want to do them too much of a disservice because they've clearly developed a way of playing that maximizes Messi and also have this ability to just go into kind of overdrive once they go a goal down or very late in a game. So the only thing I worry about from a Spain perspective is if they have that firepower to put a game beyond Argentina or if they're much like other teams, they are one goal ahead and then you face that Argentine wave. And so that, I think that's the challenge for Spain. It's, can you put this team to bed before they drag you into their chaos?
- [14:35]
James Horncastle
They can be physical. I mean, part of me would like it in a WWF style World Cup Final, which Trump would no doubt approve of.
- [14:44]
Host/Presenter
Yeah.
- [14:44]
James Horncastle
If out of nowhere a bell rings and Sergio Ramos runs out of the tunnel and. And steps into the fight. But with Romero, I mean.
- [14:56]
David Ornstein
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:59]
James Horncastle
You were at that press conference the other day with Rodri, is a big unit. And Cucurella, as much as people like to make fun of his hair, has sharp elbows. Lamine is a street footballer and really likes to do nothing more than humiliate you. I was at the Champions League quarter final between Barca and Athletico. He was just nutmegging his full back over and over again. So, yeah, they can mix it. And I do share Adam's sort of concern. I want there to be drama in this final. I don't want it to be that cold, precise, surgical, sterile. Yeah, that we see.
- [15:41]
Host/Presenter
Where is that possible, though, against this Argentina side? Is it more likely to blow up and become that they lose their. They lose their heads because they're not getting any joy or are they Spain able to completely nullify them?
- [15:55]
Adam Leventhal
Spain need to be. Think of it as like going to the dentist and you are anticipating hell. I think that's how Spain have to. And they have to think of themselves as the local anesthetic that just make that feeling go away and don't drag you into that pain and that tension. And then all you really feel is a bit of fiddling about as you move the ball about around them and win.
- [16:17]
James Horncastle
You can't really talk.
- [16:20]
Adam Leventhal
Can't really talk to each other. Can't eat. Might have a problem during the hydration break, but luck in my head. It was a really nice analogy.
- [16:29]
Host/Presenter
No, I liked it. I liked it.
- [16:31]
Adam Leventhal
I was already thinking about using it during the game. I think I will. But I think that's what they have to be. They have to be that blanket over this flame that is Argentina. But I think Argentina will definitely try in the first half, as they did with England, to drag the Spanish into their kind of naughtiness and the, you know, the dark arts and all this sort of stuff. I actually think that didn't really work work for them against England. What worked for them was when they finally started playing football, when they chilled
- [17:00]
Host/Presenter
out after 20 minutes after the first hydration break. Wasn't it really?
- [17:03]
Adam Leventhal
When they ended the first bout of WWE and started playing football. Yeah, they were great. But I think they will want to. I mean, I think they will want to look intimidating. And the way that they feel they have to look intimidating is by crowding the referee and doing all these, you know, leaving someone on one.
- [17:23]
James Horncastle
Jani's team Argentina, you know, as President Trump suggested, just.
- [17:29]
Host/Presenter
Yeah. Making life difficult for Janni throughout this. Throughout this tournament. I mean, Janni has held his own in those stakes. Let's not get sidetracked with Gianni Infantino. We've talked about him enough. Let's talk about Lamina Mal, though. And let's talk about.
- [17:42]
Adam Leventhal
Has anyone taken a photo? Yeah. Has there been a photo for your Mao?
- [17:46]
Host/Presenter
I think something happened. That would be incredible. I mean, for people who haven't seen the photo, don't know what we're talking about. Obviously there was that. I think I can use iconic photo of Lionel Messi bathing a baby Lamina male in a little bath 19 years ago. It is. I mean, it's absolutely incredible that we have this arc. I think it's like 1 in 30 million chance or something. Someone came up with this. It is incredible, isn't it?
- [18:20]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. I mean, it's the most AI looking thing I've ever seen. That is not AI.
- [18:24]
James Horncastle
Come on.
- [18:25]
Adam Leventhal
That is not AI. Come on. Yeah, it's a bizarre thing. Yeah. It's just completely mad. And it feels almost religious. I mean, everything about Messi actually, during World Cups feels a little bit religious. Kind of the devotion that the Argentines have to him, the way that it's like this pilgrimage to follow him, and now you have him sort of like baptizing the next World cup winner. I mean, it is delivering FIFA from
- [18:52]
James Horncastle
their sins with a great World cup final.
- [18:55]
Adam Leventhal
It is kind of gorgeous stuff that James will write beautifully about when that happens, probably later today, if Yamau wins it. I do think with Yamal, we're kind of waiting for that moment in this tournament. We've not quite had those definitive moments. I did think he was really. I was at the game against France, I thought he was really good.
- [19:15]
Host/Presenter
And he had that goal disallowed, didn't he? That could have been a moment. Yeah.
- [19:18]
Adam Leventhal
But also just the way he unsettled Luca Dean. He was fantastic. And Luca Dean was scared of him, and you could see that very, very early. He ran at him, he ran off him. He ran in from the flank, and he looked fitter than he had at any other game during the tournament. Argentina's fullbacks, who weren't really tested against England, are not very good. You know, Tagliafico is not a particularly good player. And I think Yamal, he doesn't need to have a moment because as we said, Spain are this system and they can find other ways to win a game. But I would love to see him have one. I mean, he's been amazing during this World cup in terms of just how chill he looks. He was eating meat from, like, a halal cart in the street the other day. Again, don't know if it's AI. Could be, could be, could be real, could be not. No idea anymore.
- [20:08]
David Ornstein
No.
- [20:08]
James Horncastle
I think two years ago, the Euros, he was doing exams in tournaments, and in that semifinal against France in Munich, scores one of the best goals I've ever seen live again. Prior to that game, Adrian Rabiot said, well, let's see if this Lamina Mal's all that. And the player he dribbled at and bent that shot past was Adrian Rabiot so he can win the World cup today and he's still a teenager. So yeah, I would retire, you know, Euros World cup before your teens. Do something else.
- [20:49]
Host/Presenter
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David Ornstein
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Host/Presenter
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David Ornstein
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Host/Presenter
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Adam Leventhal
membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com
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Host/Presenter
acast that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com acast it's smart to always have a few financial goals, and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms@discover.com credit card. Let's move on now to our discussion of the day, which is sponsored by Threads. Now, last night we asked our Threads followers what is the most memorable moment of this World cup dictionary football suggestion? Was Lamina Mal's little brother becoming the star fan off the pitch?
- [22:47]
James Horncastle
Oh yeah, forgot about that.
- [22:49]
Host/Presenter
What's been your most memorable moment? Who wants to fire in first? Short and sharp.
- [22:54]
Adam Leventhal
Go on. James popped the pass.
- [22:58]
James Horncastle
It would be Argentina. Egypt, I suppose, because so much happened in that game. It looked like Argentina were on the brink. And I've never known a team that is as comfortable staring into the abyss and, you know, sort of seeing some light rather than darkness down there. And it's sort of exciting Them rather than imperiling them. And just to see at the end of that game where they. It was the latest comeback in World cup history to see Messi collapse and cry and Scaloni sort of choke up in a post match interview. It's why you kind of never stop believing in this team. Even though everyone keeps saying, and I find it really funny when you've done enough Argentina games and you come up with. You have a conversation, someone's like, they're so beatable, aren't they? They're so beatable.
- [23:54]
Host/Presenter
The fact that there was so many tears, so much emotion that felt like that was the closest one. They weren't crying after the other ones, were they?
- [24:01]
James Horncastle
No, although they are, I mean, Adam said, very emotional. They cry a lot. They really do. If you're in a mix zone after an Argentina game, you. You've got like Lautaro Martinez saying, my
- [24:11]
David Ornstein
dad gave me these boots.
- [24:12]
James Horncastle
I've always dreamed of scoring this goal. You've got Giuliano Simeone saying, messi, he's the best. I'll run myself into the ground for him. I'll run myself in the ground for Argentina.
- [24:23]
Adam Leventhal
But it now makes sense. Don't cry for me, Argentina, because they will cry for themselves.
- [24:28]
James Horncastle
Exactly, exactly.
- [24:30]
Host/Presenter
Your most memorable moment, Adam.
- [24:32]
Adam Leventhal
I did Brazil, Norway and I actually thought, if you remember. Do you remember Brazil?
- [24:37]
Host/Presenter
Oh, yeah.
- [24:38]
Adam Leventhal
That's quite Big nation one.
- [24:39]
Host/Presenter
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Adam Leventhal
They. It felt like a big moment, them going out and Ancelotti going out, but just that was such a kind of Harland moment. I mean, this guy who just does nothing in a get in a game and then just one sensational. Had another brutal finish and then he just stood there a little bit like decades ago when Eric Cantona did. Not quite with the same expression, but just almost baffled by his own. How easy it is for him.
- [25:08]
Host/Presenter
It was a great moment.
- [25:09]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. I mean he has this kind of. There's a few players like this at the tournament, but I thought Bellingham was a bit like this as well, where basically the level just looks too low for them, where they just sort of bounce off people. You know, you used to play against someone in the playground and you could tackle them, but they would still come away with the ball and they would still come away having scored 15 goals or whatever, and they just bounce off people. And Haaland just felt like that big
- [25:35]
James Horncastle
for Texas taxidermy as well. Our friend Harland explain that. Well, Adam wrote about it, but he stepped off the plane when he landed with a stuffed raccoon.
- [25:48]
Host/Presenter
Of course, the raccoon Sorry, Yes.
- [25:50]
Adam Leventhal
Which he'd bought from Bill's Great Western in Texas.
- [25:53]
James Horncastle
Oh, the taxidermists are available.
- [25:55]
Host/Presenter
Are available, yes. Thank you.
- [25:57]
Adam Leventhal
Well, so the taxidermist has retired. What after of the stuffed raccoon that he bought. I'm so sorry, but the stuffed raccoon that he bought. The taxidermist is now retired. The owner of the store is now trying to convince the taxidermist to come out of retirement to make more because of the demand for the stuffed raccoon is such. There was about one in the store.
- [26:21]
Host/Presenter
Has this been done as a follow up piece?
- [26:22]
Adam Leventhal
Oh, it's been done.
- [26:24]
Host/Presenter
Okay, fine.
- [26:25]
James Horncastle
This is why Adam got into this game. When he started out as a sports journalist, he wanted to be writing about taxidermists coming out of the favourite story
- [26:33]
Adam Leventhal
of the whole World Cup. And by the way, the numbers show the AUD disagrees.
- [26:38]
Host/Presenter
Excellent. Couple of other suggestions. Very quickly, Terry Bees talks about Donald Trump getting involved. Don't want to talk about that anymore. Zachariah talks about Cabo Verde and their impact on the World Cup. Thank you for sending in your suggestions. If you want to be featured in our next discussion of the day, head over to Threads. Follow the Athletic FC and you can join the conversation. Let's concentrate on Argentina. We talked about how they've got here hook or by crook. In terms of watching Messi during this World cup, obviously everyone's eyes always just focus on what he is doing. How have you charted his progress through this tournament?
- [27:22]
James Horncastle
We were asked yesterday like who's been the best player in the tournament. And I think he obviously has a very compelling case, which is remarkable given his age, given he went off injured in his final game for Inter Miami against Philadelphia Union. And I'll still go back to that that day. I think it was a Tuesday in mid June where France played against Senegal, Mbappe scores twice, Norway plays against Iraq, Haaland scores twice and then later that same day Argentina play Algeria. He scores a hat trick and it set the tone for, for the entire tournament really. He could have scored a hat trick. In the next game against Austria, he missed a penalty. And I think one of the most surprising details is everyone looks at him, how many pieces have been written about him walking. And yes, there's game intelligence that comes with that walking. But also people think it's, it's age as well and economy of movement. If you watch that Austria game, he scores in the 95th minute where the chance goes begging. He doesn't give up on it. He keeps hustling for it. And he scores a very scrappy goal in stoppage time. It's like, what are you doing? And I think that just goes to show the, the hunger of him, which you speak to any of his teammates, they always just remark that he is an animal, like from a competitive point of view. And it's hard to get a sense of that because he doesn't have any kind of Michael Jordan style quotes like, you know, I took this personally. He just kind of stares awkwardly into the, into the darkness. But the competitor in Messi is apart from Jordan. I don't know if there's a competitor like this in sports, not even in kind of the big three in tennis. You know, just the killer instinct he's got.
- [29:08]
Host/Presenter
It's interesting you sort of speak about his personality cause I wanted to get your thoughts on this in a moment. We popped down to the Rockefeller center in the build up to the game and there's an eye catching version of that World cup that you can see there, which is made out of Lego, which has become a little bit of a gathering place. Gianni Infantino was there with all his legends mates the other day. John Terry was there, full kit, celebrating, really selling it.
- [29:32]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [29:34]
Host/Presenter
Other fans have been gathering there as well. And I spoke to a guy called Fede Berger who got Messi in the World cup advert for Lego. Have a listen to this. We know that the whole of Argentina worships Messi and often they say you should never meet your heroes. You've actually done that? Yeah. How was it to actually meet him, touch him? It was very special. And you know when they say you should never meet your heroes because you might get disappointed? For me it was the absolute opposite of that. I love him even more after meeting him. There's something about him that just, you can tell he's a good guy. You can tell he's a good person. And everything that you see in camera, that's what I saw in the backstage. He was asking me questions, he was interested about me and I was like, why are you asking me questions? You know, it's like, you're the most famous loved person in the world, I want to ask you questions. So he also has a lot of the values that we believe in as a brand. You know, creativity, imagination, persistence, love for play, love for the game.
- [30:37]
James Horncastle
He, I genuinely really believe he just
- [30:40]
Host/Presenter
loves to play football. You know, he does it, that's the reason he plays. It's not for anything else, it's not for fame, it's not for money, you know, it's because he just loves it in his heart. And that's really something that we as a brand can engage with, agree with. It's really just a partnership with a fantastic fit. So obviously we know that Lionel Messi loves football. We do also know that he has gone to where the money is as well. Not in terms of this link up, but I just wanted to speak about. Is he the most sort of unassuming superstar that there's ever been?
- [31:15]
Adam Leventhal
No, I don't think so. No, I don't think. I think maybe outwardly, in terms of what the public see of it, in that I don't think he's a great communicator and I don't think he's a great user of social media either. I mean, his Instagram is pretty. Someone did a piece the other day basically saying the best footballer in the world has the worst Instagram or something like that. And that's cause his sport kind of does the talking, right. It doesn't really matter for him. I think if you speak to kind of people who have been around him at some of his teams at times, I think, you know, I think there is an ego there. And, you know, you can see by Inter Miami just keep bringing in his friends and coaches who he knows and all of this kind of stuff. And some people will just say that's, you know, that's what you do. When you have greatness there, you. You build around that greatness. And it's worked for Inter Miami, so no one can really say. Say that. So I don't know if unassuming is necessarily the right world. He's definitely. He's definitely an introvert. But you have started to see sort of a few more kind of projections of his personality on the pitch and. And people really latch onto these because they've been so rare. So the one with Bellingham.
- [32:25]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Adam Leventhal
The other day, where him and Bellingham are kind of going at each other a bit and then he just kind of does this face, which basically looks like, okay, I'll deal with you later.
- [32:34]
Host/Presenter
Yeah.
- [32:35]
Adam Leventhal
Then people were then sort of saying that was what caused Messi to play, how he played, which kind of ignores that. He's played like that in every game for about 20 years. And also didn't really do anything for the first hour, so it was on delay.
- [32:48]
James Horncastle
I remember that incident happened in the first half. Right.
- [32:51]
Host/Presenter
Happens after three minutes.
- [32:52]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:53]
James Horncastle
Because it came on the big screen.
- [32:54]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [32:55]
James Horncastle
As there's always a big screen in American Stadium. So the first time I saw that side of Messi was in the quarterfinal four years ago against the Netherlands where he, he did kind of became evil Messi and he was kind of looking over at the bench and taunting Louis Vanhal and other kind of Dutch players. You know what you looking at? Idiot. And all that kind of stuff. And Argentina does bring out a side of him that we, we haven't really seen a lot in club football. I can't remember him acting like that in Barcelona.
- [33:29]
Adam Leventhal
No. And I mean this affectionately. When these Argentina guys are together, they're a bit like a gang.
- [33:33]
Host/Presenter
Yeah.
- [33:34]
Adam Leventhal
And he's almost the leader of that gang. Or not like the most physical of them. But I mean you see it right when we said this the other day. If someone dares tackle him, they all come, they all come around and it's almost what galvanizes them within a game. It's like someone has dared to tackle him or foul him. Therefore we get ignited. That is kind of their unifying thing within a game.
- [33:58]
James Horncastle
Jesus and his disciples, a gang.
- [34:03]
Host/Presenter
It's all falling into place. Just a final word on Messi and I mean this question has probably been
- [34:10]
David Ornstein
asked so many times.
- [34:10]
Host/Presenter
I'll try and ask it in a slightly different way. But is it possible for this, for this Spain side with Rodri in this side and he wouldn't necessarily be given that detail to nullify Messi's impact more than any other team.
- [34:26]
James Horncastle
One of the reasons why I was confident that they could beat France was because they have the ability to keep the ball away from France's best players. And that applies to Argentina as well. There's no better team to basically confiscate the ball and say thank you, you're not playing today. And I think that is a big advantage. As much as Spain and Malleable have a system can play different ways, I think one of the big things about them two years ago was the counterattack, the speed that they had with Nico and Lamini Mal, which is less present this time around. But that possession based game is always there with Spain and I think that is, is an issue. Argentina going to have to get a grip of the ball in this game.
- [35:09]
Adam Leventhal
There was an amazing start after the Spain France game, which I think Elise and MBappe exchanged maybe one pass during that game compared to kind of it must have been an average around sort of seven or eight per game in all the other games. And Elise ended up coming off after about 70 minutes. So that tells you what Spain are able to do. I mean he had looked sensational for the whole tournament. But if you can take your mind back a week ago we all thought France were possibly about to become the best World cup team ever and Spain just brushed them and their superstars aside. So it is that I think it will. It does feel a bit and it's simplistic of can a team win over an individual and that is a simplification. But that is, I think that's the framing many people will go with today.
- [36:01]
Host/Presenter
James, we're going to bid you a farewell, we're going to wave you off into the sunset because we're going to invite David Ornstein onto the sofa. But just as you go, can you just give us your prediction for today's game because you're obviously going to be going to the game.
- [36:13]
James Horncastle
I think Argentina will win in dramatic fashion. Really I do. Because I think Spain do not have the firepower.
- [36:20]
Host/Presenter
So by dramatic you mean a comeback victory, for example.
- [36:23]
James Horncastle
I can see it following the pattern of Egypt and England and I know that seems quite predictable. Or is it predictable? A lot of people just are convinced that this Argentina team are beatable.
- [36:33]
Host/Presenter
I would quite quietly like just to see a team against Argentina. Just see how the game just manage the game.
- [36:40]
James Horncastle
Spain are able to do that. But I just think this Argentina team, you don't want to be 15 minutes, 20 minutes away from full time and the game not be beyond any doubt because this is a team that believes like no other and for that reason, yeah, I think Argentina will win.
- [37:03]
Host/Presenter
It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms@discover.com credit card.
- [37:27]
Adam Leventhal
You're never just one thing. You're the boss. Hey Google, when's my next meeting? The athlete that class wrecks me and their mom.
- [37:34]
David Ornstein
Everyone in the all new Mazda CX5
- [37:36]
Adam Leventhal
more to move every side of you. Learn more@mazda USA.com Google is a trademark of Google LLC.
- [37:41]
James Horncastle
Sequences shortened and simulated.
- [37:42]
Host/Presenter
Are you really buying a car online
- [37:43]
Adam Leventhal
on autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up.
- [37:52]
Host/Presenter
Kid is walking up the slide.
- [37:54]
Adam Leventhal
Really?
- [37:54]
Host/Presenter
Auto trader, buy your car online.
- [37:56]
Adam Leventhal
Really?
- [38:04]
Host/Presenter
And now we have David Ornstein's legs once again.
- [38:07]
David Ornstein
Back on the show, I got criticized by by some for wearing shorts earlier in the. The series of shows and I'm trying to antagonize.
- [38:18]
Host/Presenter
Doubling down, doubling down on your pins. Okay, good. Right, we haven't got much time, but I wanted to just rattle through some. Some transfer news with you and then we'll. We'll end on a. On a final prediction for the. For the World Cup Final. Big news yesterday on Morgan Rodgers. As England were preparing for that. That game, you were dropping a. A big one. Just give us the. The short, sharp details on that, so to speak.
- [38:41]
David Ornstein
It was a big one. It was unexpected because the front runners were perceived as being Arsenal. They were keen on Morgan Rodgers and Arsenal clearly done a fair amount of work on it. Chelsea always had an interest, but I think on Arsenal's part there were maybe some reservations over the price it would take to get. Rodgers and Aston Villa were not willing to waver on their valuation, which is something we're seeing from Villa throughout. Arsenal saw it previously with Ollie Watkins. They've got some interest in ESRI Concert. The Villa hierarchy, the ownership, Nassif Suiris and Wes Edens, they're not budging. The price is the price.
- [39:17]
Adam Leventhal
Chelsea, unless they have a release. Close. But that's.
- [39:20]
David Ornstein
That's the caveat. Chelsea were willing to go there and it was done incredibly quickly. An agreement reached owner to owner, which is an interesting dynamic in some of these deals. We saw it with Manchester City, Elliott Anderson, Nottingham Forest. The guys at the very top are starting to step in sort of above sporting directors and other executives to try and get these deals moving and done. And yeah, Chelsea made an offer of 117 million pounds fixed, guaranteed.
- [39:51]
Host/Presenter
Why 117? Is it just so it's the most expensive?
- [39:54]
David Ornstein
Take it. 1 million record. That was Elliot Anderson.
- [39:57]
Host/Presenter
That's what it is.
- [39:57]
David Ornstein
Yeah.
- [39:58]
Adam Leventhal
And so none of it is performance
- [40:00]
David Ornstein
based, not to my knowledge. It's guaranteed fee.
- [40:03]
Adam Leventhal
An amazing deal for Aston Villa, I think so.
- [40:06]
David Ornstein
I mean, if you look at some of the other valuations of Tonali Anderson this summer, I don't think it's wild. He's a top attacker who produces goals and assists at a great age. But, yeah, I mean, it's fantastic for Villa financially and given what they signed him for and, and no doubt they'll. They'll bring somebody in to try and go again. Their sales have been amazing. Villa, to be fair, even though they've had to because their financial position. We talk a lot about the Brightons and Brentfords of this world, but VI have sold spectacularly well. And so, yeah, he will have an Medical on Monday, I think tomorrow is, is our understanding contract of six years with an option that the club hold Chelsea to extend by 12 months. And Xabi Alonso was at the heart of this. He was instrumental in convincing Rodgers to join Chelsea, to play for him for the project, even though there's no European football, which is another very interesting dynamic in this. He's turned down Champions League football at Aston Villa. He's just won a trophy there for a club who currently aren't in Europe. And yeah, it's a massive one. I'm not sure that will be beaten either sort of financially or in terms of the shock value in this window.
- [41:14]
Host/Presenter
Arsenal are going to be annoyed, are they? They're going to be disappointed that he's gone to Chelsea rather than them.
- [41:19]
David Ornstein
They seem to have quite a hard sort of stop line on their valuations this summer and if they didn't feel prepared to go to the level it would take, then presumably they were understanding of the situation. They were informed that Rogers was going to Chelsea and I don't think there was any great panic there. And so, you know, how do they react now?
- [41:43]
Host/Presenter
Does it mean that they think, right, well, we. We had X amount allocated for, for the Rodgers one, we could maybe spend more on another one of our targets that we know about, for example, Bruno, for example. Could they spend a bit more on him? I know it's not like.
- [41:56]
James Horncastle
Because.
- [41:56]
Host/Presenter
I know it's not a like for like.
- [41:57]
David Ornstein
No, because I think they would have the valuation for Bruno as well. And so if they manage to get him for that price, then fine. And if, if not. If not, they'll look at other targets. But, but, you know, they're spending their own money. This is, you know, Arsenal try to spend what they generate and yeah, the owners have supported them in recent markets, but they've complied with all the financial rules and, and so it's not easy to just flout them or just say we're going to spend more and, and take punishment. So Arsenal are trying to live within their means and therefore they will have these limits for a player like Bruno. They were looking at other players for that position as well. You know, there were. There have been lots of reports over Barclays of this world in last days. Diamonde, if that situation's not closed, I, I'm not sure of who they will turn to. And. And these things are pretty fluid, but they will have other options and, and it's on Andrea Berta, their sporting director, to sort of lead that charge. And then the Kronkies at ownership Level to make sure they don't miss out on more targets. Because you know, they're Premier League champions now, Champions League finalists. They're looking for an elite player or players to add to their squad to. To get them over that line. And Mikel Arteta will be disappointed with this for sure. He was really keen on. On Morgan Rodgers and if reports are to be believed, you know, they. They spent time together talking Arteta, knowing him, he would have wanted this deal done and quickly. And Arsenal haven't delivered, but that doesn't mean they won't with. With another player.
- [43:26]
Host/Presenter
I wanted to get you on Newcastle and Spurs in. In a minute. But Adam, just on the Rodgers signing. Do you think that that makes Chelsea a more credible challenger? Not one single signing, but challenger for what? For the title?
- [43:39]
Adam Leventhal
No, no, I don't think.
- [43:41]
Host/Presenter
You just don't think that they can. Do you think in their current guise they can become a more credible challenger
- [43:47]
Adam Leventhal
maybe for the top four? Yeah. I mean where was they finished last. Last season? Mid table.
- [43:53]
Host/Presenter
Yeah.
- [43:53]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. I mean I don't think they should be that.
- [43:56]
Host/Presenter
And Xabi Alonso in charge.
- [43:57]
Adam Leventhal
Well, shabby. Alonso's not playing. He was a good player but he's
- [44:01]
Host/Presenter
shown he's a decent manager.
- [44:02]
Adam Leventhal
He's a. He's a good manager. But I mean they were so far off. I think if they can get back in the top four, that's what they should be aiming for this season. I get what you mean. It's a bit more of an open field and that we don't know much about Liverpool, how they'll be under Iriola and new man City manager and I think, you know, can Arsenal go again? But I'd be.
- [44:24]
James Horncastle
I don't.
- [44:24]
Adam Leventhal
Would you be surprised if Chelsea win the league from where they've come from?
- [44:28]
David Ornstein
Yeah, I don't think it's expected.
- [44:29]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [44:29]
David Ornstein
To challenge for the Premier League title just yet. Things do change quickly in no European football and Jabby Alonso and it could click. And Tottenham will be saying the same thing with their spending and no European football. Manchester United. I remember speaking to Gary Neville and he thinks that this is this season coming is their big opportunity. While the others have new. Newer coaches than Man United because Carrick was already in the building and they'll all be settling and in a year's time they will be settled and so they can nip in. I think Chelsea's aim would be to get back into the European picture and ideally Champions League football.
- [45:03]
Adam Leventhal
Did you. I mean, I presume Chelsea will need
- [45:05]
David Ornstein
to sell some players well, they've already sold players. They've sold for about what the best part of this figure, £100 million. Is it Andres Santos.
- [45:15]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [45:17]
David Ornstein
Kukureya and Tyreek George. So I think they've already recouped. I mean Chelsea, whatever you think of their activity and policy in recent years, they've I think sold more in the last four years than the rest of the top, the so called big six combined. And they've got more assets. I was just on the phone on the way in here to a contact who was saying to me, they've got tons of assets they can sell in, in the, in this window still and in the windows ahead. So people call it madness. There's clearly some method to it whether. Whether you like it or not, we're
- [45:52]
Adam Leventhal
just waiting to see the results on the field. Right. That's the. They spend a lot, they sell a lot of the. One of the people we'll see in the champions in the World cup final today, Enzo Fernandez. What do you think will happen with him?
- [46:03]
David Ornstein
Yes, clearly that's. Given his comments and what's happened over the last several months, you would imagine if, if a suitable offer came in and reports have said like 120 million pounds or whatever, I imagine they would at least very heavily consider it. But right now I don't know of those offers, whether it had been Manchester City or Real Madrid coming in and so he would, he would presumably stay at Chelsea. I mean the World cup would suggest he's a player that Chelsea should want to keep, but it's not quite that straightforward. So, yeah, I think players, you know, you hear a lot about untouchables at Chelsea, whether it be your Cole Palmer, your Moises Caicedo, your Levi Colwill and he tends not to be bracketed as an untouchable, but it's all dictated by the market and I don't think right now there's a market for Enzo Fernandez at the price that we convinced Chelsea to sell.
- [46:56]
Host/Presenter
And maybe Untouchable, because he is also. He's a bit of an agitator anyway, isn't he? So he's. He's more likely to. Or he's been saying that he potentially might want to go as well. One other one that I wanted to ask you about, spurs rejecting a bid from Newcastle for Lucas Bergwaal.
- [47:11]
David Ornstein
Yeah, well, Lucas Bergwa, we revealed, has told Tottenham that he would like to seek a new challenge and I think they'd be receptive to that. Contrary to some initial suggestions, that was not for sale, but it's got to be the right price. And clearly at £46 million that Newcastle offered, that doesn't satisfy. You know, he's 20 years old, he's. He's under contract. He's Sweden international. He's got high potential. They beat Barcelona to his signing originally. And so, you know, Nottingham Forest have made a couple of bids, I think, and they have come in lower than that. We're told that there have also been some proposals that have been higher than what Newcastle offered and all of them so far have been rejected. But clearly there will come a point that if offers reach a suitable level for a player who doesn't appear to be fundamental to what Roberto de Zerbi is doing and certainly not in the position that he would like to play in, central midfield, he's been shifted to wide areas and elsewhere, then you could see something developing on that front. And Tottenham seem intent on showing they can sell as well as buy and they need to as well. So. So that is a really interesting situation. There's a lot of interest from those two clubs, Newcastle and Forest and elsewhere for Bergwal.
- [48:26]
Adam Leventhal
So what do you think the price is?
- [48:28]
David Ornstein
I think there's a consensus in the industry that it's £60 million. That's what the clubs who are interested in think Tottenham want. Tottenham say we're not putting a limit on it typically, but that's fair enough. It's their prerogative. And I. I don't think 60 is that unreasonable in this day and age.
- [48:45]
Adam Leventhal
Maybe I've just lost all content.
- [48:47]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [48:47]
Adam Leventhal
I mean, in the middle of the World Cup I just see these numbers come out. I was like 117 million for Rogers seemed wild to me, but maybe that is just the market.
- [48:59]
David Ornstein
It is wild, but you're worth what somebody's willing to pay. So I don't think the controversy is the industry's nuts.
- [49:05]
Host/Presenter
Maybe you're worth what someone else was willing to pay for someone else as well, which you know that. Knock on a certain a couple of quick fire questions because we haven't got much time. Boadi to City. Update has come in.
- [49:17]
David Ornstein
No update. From what we reported on here via the deal sheet of last week, it's
- [49:22]
Host/Presenter
the same, still pending.
- [49:23]
David Ornstein
Essentially they're pushing to do a deal.
- [49:26]
Host/Presenter
Okay.
- [49:26]
David Ornstein
No deal has been done yet.
- [49:27]
Host/Presenter
And one other one. Any updates on a third midfielder for Manchester United?
- [49:32]
David Ornstein
No. We talked on here about Manukone. You know, there are loads of players Man United will be looking at. I think Sanderberg has been mentioned for years with Man United. There'll be Loads of options. Alex Scott. But Bournemouth don't want to sell the same names as previously. I don't think Man United have committed to anyone on that front. They're weighing up what they're going to do in that position. Edison has signed a new contract. That's an update. So he's off the market. Technically, you would imagine that won't be revisited. And Man United also have to think about the wide left position. So if Marcus Rashford is being reintegrated, which we've reported since I was last on the show, he'll be going back to pre season training. The £40 million buy clause, exit clause for all clubs apart from Liverpool and Manchester city expired on the 15th of July. That means it now needs to be a negotiation for Marcus Rashford if he is to stay in England. Only wants to play for Manchester United if he goes abroad. You know, he would be open, I'm sure to likes of your Barcelona's, psg, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid's. If, if they come in, there's a conversation to be had. If not, it looks like he'll be staying at Manchester United. He's under contract, he's a Manchester United boy and let's see if that happens, what he can do. It would also mean they don't need to spend in that position on a transfer fee and new agents commissions and all that sort of thing, just be his continued salary and that means they will have a better idea of resource for the central midfield role. Are they able to shift somebody like Joshua Xerxe and if so, for what price? That will then dictate what budget they've got to spend on a midfielder. There are some midfielders out there who are free agents. Yeah. Maybe come with high salaries. There are some that will cost a transfer fee. So there's loads of different considerations here and I think Manchester United will be working through that process.
- [51:26]
Host/Presenter
Now you're both heading to the World cup final. Very quick prediction, who's winning?
- [51:31]
Adam Leventhal
I think Spain just.
- [51:33]
Host/Presenter
Okay, David.
- [51:35]
David Ornstein
Somehow Argentina at the last World cup and this always get the job done, even when they're on the verge of exiting. So I'm gonna say and it's gonna be proved completely wrong. A narrow 21 win after extra time.
- [51:48]
Host/Presenter
Oh, okay. Excellent. Very, very exciting. Thank you very much for being here. Thanks to James earlier on for being in the studio, to Jack for his contribution earlier as well on England. Thanks very much for all of your questions. You delivered on the transfer questions as well and it was great to talk about Spain and Argentina. Reminder that all of the athletics coverage on the app is free during the World Cup. It's the last day of the World cup, ladies and gents, so do tuck into the action right now. You can watch or listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to subscribe to this, our YouTube channel. We will be back tomorrow to reflect on who has won the World Cup. Enjoy the game. Take care till then. It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show see terms@discover.com creditcard. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a US based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims. Your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed.
- [53:31]
David Ornstein
Pour your money back.
- [53:32]
Host/Presenter
Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 30% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Are you really buying a car online
- [53:41]
Adam Leventhal
on Autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up.
- [53:49]
Host/Presenter
I think Kid is walking up the slide.
- [53:51]
Adam Leventhal
Really?
- [53:52]
Host/Presenter
Auto trader? Buy your car online?
- [53:54]
James Horncastle
Really.