← The Athletic FC Podcast
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- [00:00]
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- [01:40]
David Ornstein
The Athletic FC
- [01:45]
Adam Leventhal
hi there, it's Adam Leventhal. Welcome to New York where on Sunday the World Cup Final will take place and for the next week this is going to be the home of the Athletic FC podcast. We're going to be coming to you live and direct every day, bringing you the sights and the sound downs and the ups and the downs of the business end of the tournament. So what could be a really historic week for England starts here. We're going to be reflecting on Norway and build up to their semi final with Argentina, who have an icon licking his lips ahead of a first meeting with the three Lions. Spain have seen lesser lights and super subs take center stage so far, but but will that be enough to topple the irresistible force of France who want to go one better than four years ago? So here we are all of a sudden in New York and with me is David Ornstein. How are you football correspondent of the Athletic?
- [02:47]
David Ornstein
Very well thank you Adam. Sorry, I just had to put my phone down to pause from the transfer market. Yeah, that wasn't staged guys, I promise you I'm Great, thank you. Having a brilliant time. It's been a fantastic five to six weeks.
- [03:01]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [03:01]
David Ornstein
This World cup ever, but enjoyable.
- [03:03]
Adam Leventhal
It's great to have you here and it's great to see your legs as well.
- [03:06]
James Horncastle
Yeah.
- [03:06]
David Ornstein
So just for our audiences, I thought this was going to be recorded, like, above the waist with us around desks. This is. It's 29 degrees in New York today, so this is very prudent attire.
- [03:18]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, but.
- [03:19]
Laura Williamson
Or you didn't do your research.
- [03:20]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [03:21]
David Ornstein
I could have asked the. The producers, but.
- [03:23]
Adam Leventhal
Or you just respond. Audiences responding to what the audience want.
- [03:26]
David Ornstein
Yeah. Leg.
- [03:28]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Hairy ones.
- [03:29]
Laura Williamson
Meanwhile, in jeans. Excellent.
- [03:32]
Adam Leventhal
The Athletics UK Editor in chief, Laura Williamson. How are you?
- [03:35]
Laura Williamson
I'm very well, thank you.
- [03:36]
Adam Leventhal
Very well. Good. It's lovely to have you both here. As we said before, we are going to be live each and every day from 8:00am here Eastern in New York, 1:00 clock back in the UK, and then a multitude of different time zones. Wherever you're watching around the world, it's a great opportunity for you to fire in your questions for both Laura and David. We've got a big transfer show coming up tomorrow, so maybe hold fire on some of the transfer questions for tomorrow because I know that you will want to ask many of them to David. And one other bit of housekeeping, of course, if you're watching on YouTube, do all the good stuff, like subscribe and push us beyond our. Whatever we're on now, 300,000 subscribers. So let's reflect on what it's been like for you covering the tournament. Laura, let's start with you. I mean, you've been based here in New York. You've been to. Have you been to other cities or this? It's just been at the heart.
- [04:36]
Laura Williamson
Just in New York. Yeah. Then went back for a couple of weeks because Wimbledon and F1 and all those things, and then. And then came back out again.
- [04:44]
Adam Leventhal
Logistically, what has it been like covering it for. For the athletic, trying to coordinate everyone in all these multitudes of cities and countries?
- [04:53]
Laura Williamson
I mean, the. The scale and the ambition of what we've done has been, like, unprecedented.
- [04:59]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [04:59]
Laura Williamson
We've had, you know, 55 people accredited for the tournament, a wider North American team as well, and tried to base people in cities all over the. The three host countries. And just the. The scale of the coverage, every game live, the stories we've broken, I'm incredibly, incredibly proud. But, yeah, the logistical element has been months and months in the planning, but then we've got this sort of editorial hub based in The New York Times building just by Times Square. And it's really vibrant, and it's wonderful to sort of see how people are pulling different strings and challenging our reporters to break things and stuff. So it's been really, really exc. And then also to go back to the UK and see how the tournament's playing out there and then to come out again. So it's. Yeah, it's been very, very special.
- [05:52]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, it's been a different vibe in the UK because it seems as if, you know, often you've watched highlights of games more than you've been able to watch the games live. But now here, obviously, we're all on the same time zone now, so it all works out nicely. David, phone down, please.
- [06:12]
David Ornstein
I feel like it's.
- [06:13]
Adam Leventhal
Dad. In terms of your sort of tournament so far, you've been obviously here, but also following England. They're into the semi finals. I mean, how have you found this tournament? Covering this one?
- [06:28]
David Ornstein
Well, yeah, so New York's my base, and I missed the Dallas game against Croatia. But then actually, it was quite nice to experience that in a. In a New York sports bar because there's so many England supporters, expats, or even fans who are from different countries who seem to follow England. I've noticed a lot of that at this World cup, which is probably linked to star names like your Canes, Bellingham, Sackers, Ricers of this world. And then went to Boston for the Garnet game, which was not the best. Then we headed over back here to New Jersey for the Panama match, Atlanta for the Congo game, and then Mexico City for that one.
- [07:09]
Adam Leventhal
Was that the highlight?
- [07:10]
David Ornstein
That was incredible. Everything about Mexico City was perfect. The. When you get off the plane at the airport, you feel the World cup immediately, which you don't in other cities here. From my experience, that's to take nothing away from the atmosphere. New York is crackling. Boston's great in its own right. Atlanta, too, but they don't ooze World cup and football, and especially here in New York. At the start of the tournament, we had the Knicks winning the NBA Finals. And so the. The city was electric for that reason and not for the World Cup. Of course, when you pop into sports bars or Times Square, you. Or you're at the MetLife, but that's out of town. You feel the World cup, but Mexico City was the complete opposite to that. It was just everywhere you looked, taxi drivers on the streets and walking around it. On the Saturday before the England game, it was a steamy atmosphere. People were going about their Business, visiting markets, selling shirts, the fans were congregating. Very good atmosphere. The Mexicans were so welcoming. Anybody that was fearing disharmony, violence that couldn't be further from the truth. And everyone descended on the Azteca and there was the thunder and lightning which almost added to the mystique. And you could sense even with the delay, it was going to be a really special night. You knew Mexico were going to turn up. They'd won every match until that point. They hadn't conceded a goal. England had to turn up, they had to get a result there to keep their World cup ambitions on course. And it had a bit of everything that match and, and being in the mix zone after, because I do that at every England game. I go down and do interviews in amongst the journalists, the players and everything. You could just sense the emotion, the, the outpouring of relief, the exhaustion and the growth in ambition that England felt they could win the tournament after that match almost that that was a harder hurdle than Brazil or Norway would have been because of the altitude and everything that was being said about that, the occasion, the atmosphere, which was ear splitting, even when Mexico came out to warm up, that that was like a noise I'd never heard in a stadium before, let alone the match. And when they scored and when there was the red card for Kwanzaa. It's been one hell of a journey. I'm looking forward to going to Atlanta tomorrow for the England game on Wednesday. And you know that I, I think they'll get to the final. Now, England, famous last words, okay. And without dismissing Argentina. And I think there's a good chance that they don't get over the line in the final. But my goodness, this is, it's been a World cup that's been so much better than I expected. So many stories that have come up that we, we weren't anticipating even in this country in its weird and wonderful ways.
- [09:44]
Laura Williamson
So let's just go back to that, just going back to that. Like that opening weekend when the Knicks won and like we've covered tournaments here before, so Copa America, club, World cup. And as David says, it feels like the football sort of going on over there and life just carries on. But that, that was, that was sport was so central, so central. But then the next day on the Sunday, it, the people in the streets weren't selling Knicks gear, they were selling World cup stash and, and shirts. And it was like at that point I thought, this is, we're going to get them here. This is gonna, this is really going to take over and it. And it has like. I mean, so many Scotland fans. I mean, they were only playing New York, New Jersey, Norway, Brazil, Morocco. You just. It, like, it. It has taken over a city as. As busy as New York, which. And I think, as David says, it just. It has been so much better than I think anyone hoped for, really.
- [10:44]
Adam Leventhal
I went for a little walk just to try and get over the jet lag yesterday around Times Square, and it really did strike me that, yes, it's very, very busy. Obviously Times Square always is, but. And the atmosphere is obviously great, but just that there is a great buzz, obviously there's the flags of all the, all the teams and obviously a big focus now on the shirts of the teams in the semi finals. I do keep a keen eye on fake merchandise, so I was keeping a close eye on that. Yes, exactly. What's going on here, everyone? I mean, it was so busy. How do you think it's going to change ahead of the final? Do you think it's just going to go to a next level?
- [11:23]
Laura Williamson
I mean, especially if Argentina get there. Because, I mean, Argentina fans have just camped out in Times Square, taken over and I really, I mean, if they, if they get there, it will just go to a completely different level. Obviously we, as an English person, obviously, I hope they don't. But I think also the, the demand in terms of sort of the celebrity aspect, like the what something we're looking at is just the clamor for tickets to, for people to. To get in on this, the biggest sort of show on earth. And the halftime show, you know, there's suggestions that some of that will take place in Times Square and some of it will take place in the stadium itself. That's going to be the sort of cultural impact of this World Cup. I think will. Will really come to. To a head and, and let's face it, that's why the final is in New Jersey rather than Dallas or Sofi, which I think have looked incredible on the television. Absolutely incredible. And have the benefits of roofs as well. But that's, that's why it's here because, you know, this is the, this is the heart of it. And we're lucky enough to be right here. I think I can feel like trains going on. Is it me?
- [12:34]
David Ornstein
Probably.
- [12:35]
Adam Leventhal
It's either that or just the excitement, the good vibes in the studio.
- [12:38]
David Ornstein
That's what it is. And I actually was at the 2014 World cup in Brazil where the Argentines came down en masse. It was absolutely incredible. They were all on Copacabana and IPANEMA in camper vans and. And it was like carnival season every single day, day and night. And you've started to see that as the tournament's gone on, the Argentines get further and by hook or by crook, they've got quite fortunate. But, but that will reach a crescendo, of course, if they get to a back to back final. But Laura's right, they're not alone in that. There's probably more supporters because you see their shirts everywhere you go around here. The beginning, it was Scotland, you're quite right. And then you started seeing the Ecuadorians and actually England at that point were a minority and Times Square became a bit of a hub. But also you'll be walking on any street corner or into a bagel shop or a little coffee house or on the ferry or something like that. And you are, you were seeing the shirts everywhere. And even though the tournament's coming to an end and teams are leaving, there is a growth in excitement. Many of our US colleagues, when we were looking ahead to this tournament, they did predict that it would be a late burner, that the US fans love an occasion, an event, entertainment, and they'll come out when it matters most. And it's interesting that Laura describes how when the Knicks finished, it was like turning a page. The celebrations were wild that night, but it was then on to the next one. So now all the Knicks merchandise has been restocked, if anyone needs to, to find it. The, the when the Yankees play that you see Yankee shirts around. Yeah, but then it's straight back to the World cup and, and that's a real breakthrough for football, for soccer, and, and the way that it gets talked about over conversations at dinner, in restaurants, in bars and, and even on the subway and public transport and in taxis here is really impressive. And all the legitimate stories about ticket prices and empty stadiums and things like that. Well, the clamor for tickets that Laura mentions has been fierce. Most stadiums have been pretty much packed out. You see the odd empty seat here or there. I think that's more seats not taken, not seats that were not purchased by somebody. And I've got a lot of people, naturally, as England go further asking, do you know where we can get tickets? And things like that. And I don't know what schemes certain countries put on to allow their fans to travel, but actually I thought fans, regrettably, were not going to be one of the main stories here, with colors and shirts and things like that and songs and it's not like a European World cup where you congregate in squares and you hear days of singing and drinking sometimes, unfortunately, violence too. It's been, it's. It has been festive and fans have been a major part of this tournament, which has been refreshing.
- [15:20]
Adam Leventhal
Thank you for sending in your comments and questions so far. Do you want to hear a nice one, David? I'm not going to tell you. No, no, no, no. It is nice, David, you're the. You're the only true transfer journalist. God bless you.
- [15:33]
David Ornstein
Did you write that?
- [15:34]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, yeah, that was me. That was just a comment from me. That was from Afro Sport. Thank you very much for getting in. And there are a few questions coming in about transfers and obviously we've been focusing on the. On the World cup coverage, but you've been spinning the transfer plate as well. We've got a big show on transfers coming up tomorrow with David on the sofa. But you've broken news in the last 12, 24 hours, whatever it is. I don't know what day it is on Yuri Telemans. Just give us a little snapshot of that. Not the full story. A snapshot, please.
- [16:04]
David Ornstein
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Laura knows what I'm like. I'll go into chapter and verse. How many hours have you got me
- [16:09]
Laura Williamson
on deliberately to edit you here?
- [16:12]
David Ornstein
A bit of a shock deal, that one, because obviously Manchester United have been trying to strengthen their midfield. Aston Villa, we revealed on the Athletic yesterday, were closing in on a deal for Johan Manzambi. Newcastle were trying to sign. A bit of a hijack there. It's a lot of questions about could someone make way in Aston Villa's midfield? Who are Manchester United gonna sign? Because they need to bolster theirs. The Edison deals not going forward at the minute. So we made our checks and. And found out that it was Yuri Tillerman's, that they're going for his release clause in his aston Villa contract, £35 million. So Villa would have loved to have renewed him. There's nothing they could really do about it with that mechanism. It's an opportunity that appeals to him. So he's coming back from the World cup and I expect Man United will try and wrap it up with. With medical, finalize all the terms and. And get him into that midfield. A top player, of course, who we've seen here at the World cup. And it's one of the. The key themes from my reporting here has been. So much has been going on in the transfer market, more than we expected. We thought it was going to take a dip and then go really lively later in the summer. There has been tons Going on all the way back to people like van Hecker. He was so impressive for the Dutch. Suddenly moving from Brighton to Spurs right at the beginning at Anderson of course was the big one. And so it's kept me extremely busy and it's fascinating that many of our audiences and fans out there who are hearing these transfer market names are able to see them. The one that springs to mind immediately is the RB Leipzig Ivory Coast. I mean suddenly he was in the heart of this Liverpool PSG battle while playing on match days for, for Ivory coast in front of the eyes of the world, handshakes with Jay Z, pitch side and things like that. So it's been. Ayubuadi had a really good chat with him in the mix zone after the Brazil Morocco game early in the tournament he came over and spoke to me. You know, he said he's very happy to see links to these massive clubs. It's flattering but he's focused on the tournament and boy was he because he really excelled and football fans knew about him. But now Ayubouadi is a name that's being known to the world. What about his teammate Saibari who is going to Bayern Munich and really set the pace at the beginning of the tournament. So this has been a real element to the World cup, the transfer market narrative. And it's not done yet.
- [18:33]
Adam Leventhal
Absolutely. It's not. There's. There's so many more transfers to happen.
- [18:37]
Laura Williamson
It wasn't.
- [18:39]
Adam Leventhal
It does show that as teams drop out then they can really kick into gear. We saw that with Trossard for example, going off to be so.
- [18:46]
Laura Williamson
Yeah, and that's why, that's why we've put David here. Like my point earlier about the final and the world converging like that. It's absolutely going to happen after those two semi finals. Every. Everyone wants a piece of it. So it's. I mean it's going to be like a little mini market.
- [19:03]
David Ornstein
It's been amazing for me the amount of people that why they're coming to New York for business, coming to meet people, coming as a gateway to other cities, teams, individual players, staff members, family members who are basing themselves here or coming here actually on days off happen with a few nations. It's been an amazing place to be able to meet and speak to people in relation to a lot of the news breaking work we do across the athletic, not just the market. And that is going to be a crescendo in this week because a lot are coming for the final. So I would expect deals and negotiations to be done and then all hell
- [19:39]
Adam Leventhal
will break loose post tournament the city that never sleeps.
- [19:41]
David Ornstein
Quite literally for you judging by my the data of my sleep patterns that that is a fact.
- [19:48]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. Have you trained yourself to still interact with people whilst asleep?
- [19:53]
David Ornstein
I'm notorious among friends for like speaking while like drifting off. Yeah falling asleep in t taxis. I actually fell asleep walking back from dinner down fifth Avenue the other day and I don't I managed to stop as like cars were coming across the road.
- [20:10]
Adam Leventhal
Fantastic.
- [20:10]
David Ornstein
It was like there are there are a lot of self driving cars out here. I I was in a taxi that was self driven in automate automatic in Atlanta and I feel like I've been a bit like that autopilot. You know, sort of walking while sleeping doing transfer stories while sleeping Foreign.
- [20:32]
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- [23:03]
Adam Leventhal
Throughout the tournament you will know regular listeners, viewers on YouTube as well. We've been doing our do you know Trivia as we're live. We're going to do it slightly different today and throughout this week. We're going to pitch the question to you. You can get in Touch on YouTube. You can fire in your your answers. I will pitch the question to both Laura and David as well in the studio and then we will do the big reveal later on. Bit of drama, why not? So it is day 33 of the tournament. All of the questions hinged on the number. But David, I'm asking you a question. Do you know which World cup winner. Don't answer yet.
- [23:41]
James Horncastle
Okay.
- [23:42]
Adam Leventhal
If you were listening, then you would know. Don't ask yet.
- [23:44]
David Ornstein
And before anybody accuses me of cheating, I don't look at our scripts beforehand.
- [23:48]
Adam Leventhal
No. If I get it right, we learned that early on that we don't put the answer in the script because you know the people.
- [23:53]
David Ornstein
No, I didn't even know the question.
- [23:55]
Adam Leventhal
But I know. But don't answer it straight away. And people at home, you could fire
- [23:58]
David Ornstein
in your questions as well.
- [24:00]
Adam Leventhal
Your answers. Day 33 of the tournament. Do you know which World cup winner scored 33 Premier League goals for Arsenal in 184 games? So yeah, the answers are coming in already. That's good. We've already got a few easy already. Okay, good. Well, let's keep it going. We'll, we'll deal with that a little bit later on. Let's now focus on the fallout from England against Norway and the victory. I want to focus on the good first on Jude Bellingham's performance. The two goals obviously now level with Kane on six for the tournament. Laura, how have you. How can you sum up his performance and his status at the moment?
- [24:46]
Laura Williamson
I love players who bend games to their Will. And that's what he's done against Mexico. I found myself thinking he was almost born for occasions like this, you know, in that stadium, on that scale. And it did it again against Norway, like going back to the Mexico game quite early on, he made that really incisive run down the sort of just inside, on the left a little bit. And it. It was just like, that's what we hadn't had from England at any point. And then when. When needed for, against Norway, there he was again. And I think that. That dynamism and I mean, and also just where he's playing just so much further forward, really, really influencing the game. And the relationship with Kane is fascinating. And he's just. It just feels like he's gone to another level. You know, clearly incredible player, you know, obviously third in the Ballon d'.
- [25:52]
OnDeck Announcer
Or.
- [25:53]
Laura Williamson
He plays for Real Madrid. Like, he's obviously of a certain stature, but he's now being talked about with your males and bapes and not quite Messi yet, but in the general conversation. And I think just. Just as a fan of the team, it's just incredible to see a player with that talent really fulfilling it and making such an impact.
- [26:18]
Adam Leventhal
Therefore, David, is it frustrating that we've sort of got snarled up even after such a great performance in another potential battle between him and Thomas Tuchel? It just seems. Is it just an English thing? Is it just unfortunate that maybe, you know, the host broadcaster in the uk, by the way, itv, an interview that was carried out by Gabriel Clark, who's a wonderful operator, just had a bit of a tetchy conversation with Thomas Tuchel that then led to a question, then being asked to Jude Bellingham about the manager being unhappy, and he responded in turn with, you know, whatever. And that seemed to dictate then the fallout from a game and it seems to have overshadowed it. Do you think it's. Do you think it's a genuine issue or is it just a storm in a teacup?
- [27:04]
David Ornstein
You only get snarled up in something if you want to, and it's how you see it. I don't think it needs to have overshadowed it. That's in the eye of the beholder. I know there's been a lot of noise in the UK media, but I thought, firstly, Gabriel will be fine with his interview. It was good. And I so will talk about.
- [27:19]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, it's not criticism of him, it's just the way sometimes a path can change by an answer to a question
- [27:24]
David Ornstein
or I think they would have liked their interaction and it's a Lot of other people making it out to be something.
- [27:30]
Adam Leventhal
It was great.
- [27:30]
David Ornstein
It was box office, I thought.
- [27:32]
Adam Leventhal
And.
- [27:32]
David Ornstein
And Tuchel was recomposed himself in the next answer immediately. And, and they talked on. They've done many interviews with each other and Gabriel's one of the most experienced around. I don't think there's any disrespect on either side. And equally I loved Bellingham's repost and answer. It was fantastic. He just spoke the truth, showed his character. There was no suggestion of animosity with Thomas Tuchel and yeah, there's some background.
- [27:55]
Adam Leventhal
But do you agree with that? Yeah, because it does. Because it does open. It does open a little bit of a window to if. If, for example. And I think maybe latterly he was asked if Harry Kane had been asked exactly the same question. I think Harry Kane as a captain may have responded differently to how Jude Bellingham did.
- [28:10]
Land Rover Defender Announcer
Yeah.
- [28:11]
David Ornstein
But I think Kane is maybe just a bit more diplomatic than anyone.
- [28:14]
Adam Leventhal
But that's, that's the point, isn't it?
- [28:16]
David Ornstein
But Jude Bellingham speaks his mind and he has done for a while. I get the privilege when you're in the mix afterwards of speaking to the players when they come down. And at every England match I've been to, so I wasn't at Dallas or Miami, Jude Bellingham has come in afterwards. I think that's because he's won the player of the match award. So you have to give a few minutes to.
- [28:34]
Adam Leventhal
He's been the main man.
- [28:35]
David Ornstein
Media. I don't know if he has to come into where I and lots of other journalists are because he does the post match stuff on television. So either he, he needs to or he's choosing to. But one thing that is not in doubt is he's a magnificent talker. He is absolutely fluid and fluent and interesting. And he says it as it is. He's not holding back. He looks you in the eye and he gives you proper answers, which is what the media asked for. And so when they come, let's not complain about it. And I thought his retort or reply was, was perfectly legitimate. I mean, it was true. Like Thomas Tuchel hasn't played at that level. And Jude Bellingham is giving us the value of the experience that he has by having played there. And I've seen many images of them this tournament embracing and showing the strength of their relationship. Yet there is some background because Thomas Tuchel made some inopportune comments, previously used that word, repulsive. He then apologized for it. And then there was sort of speculation about why Jude Bellingham had missed one of the England camps. Was he dropped? Was it because the injury? I think on occasions we're guilty of trying to pick a bit too deeply into this. Jude Bellingham was struggling with the shoulder injury. I think he underwent surgery. There was a lot of chatter around would he make this, you know, squad, should he make the squad? And Morgan Rodgers has done fantastically for Thomas Tuchel. I'd be really keen to see him start against Argentina actually and he and Bellingham can play together but Bellingham selection in the squad is a no brainer in the team has been completely justified and he's really pushing for player of the tournament. I think in my mind he's almost like character of the tournament as well. The way he's given these interviews, the way he is endearing himself to the fans and connecting with him, with them on the pitch in his comments and, and look, you know, a lot of the time in sport, in football we talk about players who say a lot but don't do it. But everything he's saying is being backed up with actions and I don't think, I think we've got a bit of a duty as well to report all of these things in context and with
- [30:42]
Adam Leventhal
well, let's go to Laura then. So you know, how do you ensure that you, you caveat it with yes, but etc, you know, how do you do that?
- [30:51]
Laura Williamson
Well, the, the word Thomas Tuchel used was sloppy which was. Seemed to be the, the word that irritated Bellingham as I totally understand that and I think I, I agree with David. I, I like that, that needle, I like that he, he was asked twice at first he sort of said oh whatever and then he said well you know, you try playing Odegaard etc. But I think again it sort of shows how Bellingham has evolved as. I mean he's always, obviously always been confident but in previous tournaments we didn't really hear from him to the same degree and he felt more peripheral. Whereas now he's. Whether it's deliberate or what, but you know, he's going straight over to Sacchar and saying that that's you, you've made that or whoever, you know, whoever's provided the cross. It's like it feels, it feels very genuine but also very deliber deliberate. And then in terms of our reporting it's, it's, it's, it's about not connecting the dots unnecessarily basically. So you know, Tuchel said this, Bellingham said this and then go make a load of calls and find out the background to it, which there will be a piece on the Athletic coming in the next few days and, and sort of not putting words, words in mouth so to speak because it is clearly it's such a fascinating dynamic and he, I mean six goals, it's just, just incredible. Like Tim Spears was writing our daily recap the other day and he said, he said to me, he's, he's the, he's England's best tournament player. I said, what here? He said no ever in a World cup because of that sort of point I made earlier about changing games and forcing games to his own will. So yeah, there'll be another piece on that coming as well.
- [32:34]
David Ornstein
I, I think there has been a change this tournament. I don't know what and, and it's our duty to sort of understand it but you know, there felt like a lot of acrimony at the last European Championships and it's got to be said that Bellingham dug England out of a hole on the pitch there with. There was a header, the overhead kick as well. I think he was subject to a FIFA Invest UEFA investigation for one of his celebrations. It was taught that he hadn't given as many interviews and, and this sort of thing when he celebrated he said who else type thing. And I, I think we've got to cut these players some slack because they, they're young and there's a lot of emotion flying around. Bellingham spoke before this tournament about something not being quite right in that camp towards, in terms of the mentality. I don't know if it was and it wasn't disrespect to the Southgate era but, but they, they were sort of insinuating something's different under Tuko and maybe it's just trying to have that extra ability to, to go on and win and actually pick up a trophy. But I did notice something different from the New Zealand warm up match where as soon as I think Rice scored was it that or Costa Rica, I can't remember which. Bellingham was straight over with a very like emotional celebration. His head was into Rice's chest. He wanted to take the penalty that Gordon ended up taking. And as soon as Gordon scored it, Bellingham was the first over to him to celebrate. His comments were on point from the warm up matches onwards about his and the team's commitment and his love and passion of playing for his country. Laura mentions the Saka moment. He's the one who has been picking Jed Spence up when he was getting a bit of scrutiny for his performances and it's almost like, you know, you see him celebrating with Kane, you see on the training pitch, actually, they often run round together as well. It's almost like Bellingham has sort of presented himself as the perfect player and ambassador so far. Maybe not perfect, you know, and future
- [34:27]
Adam Leventhal
captain, it seems to me. He's. He's doing a daily sort of almost rehearsal of. Of potentially being a captain.
- [34:34]
David Ornstein
I think he's probably done it, which isn't.
- [34:36]
Adam Leventhal
That's. And that's not a bad thing. And I must say that we're not having a go at him.
- [34:40]
OnDeck Announcer
Yeah.
- [34:40]
Laura Williamson
Yeah.
- [34:40]
Adam Leventhal
And the most important thing, as you pointed out, is if these perceived disruptions were causing any sort of harm to his performances on the pitch, there would be an issue. But there isn't. And he's. He's performing on the pitch and very well in press conferences and in mixed zones and speaking. Speaking very well. And that is what the England fans are seeing as well, and they are particularly grateful. Now, Reuben Pinder is going to be joining us on one of our next shows from the Athletic. And he has been tracking England and all the different teams around this World Cup. And this is some England fans sending their message to Jude Bellingham after that victory over Norway.
- [35:24]
David Ornstein
Jude Bellingham, you're the hero of the nation, mate.
- [35:27]
Land Rover Defender Announcer
Keep on playing.
- [35:28]
David Ornstein
We're all behind you.
- [35:29]
Adam Leventhal
See you in New York.
- [35:30]
David Ornstein
He's probably the best player we've ever produced.
- [35:32]
Adam Leventhal
The moments like that, we really needed him. He's made the whole thing worthwhile.
- [35:36]
David Ornstein
I think we can go all the way because of Jude. Hey, Jude.
- [35:39]
Adam Leventhal
Keep on going all the way because we are knight him already. He's the best person I've ever met. I haven't even met him. Absolutely outstanding. Could me anyway proud of. You know, he deserves everything. How he isn't already like a prince of King kned.
- [35:50]
James Horncastle
I have no idea. Unreal. I love you.
- [35:52]
Adam Leventhal
I watch you in Germany. €24. Weight of red kick. Unbelievable.
- [35:57]
James Horncastle
I love you.
- [35:59]
Adam Leventhal
Again with Thomas Cho.
- [36:02]
David Ornstein
Come on, Jude.
- [36:03]
Adam Leventhal
Come on. Again. I love you, Jude.
- [36:05]
James Horncastle
Bring it up.
- [36:07]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. So those were some of the messages. You know, he's one of the best people I've ever met. I've never even met him. That's probably the best line.
- [36:21]
Lead Human Podcast Hosts
What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job?
- [36:25]
David Ornstein
As technology is changing so quickly, is
- [36:27]
Lead Human Podcast Hosts
it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own, what would that take?
- [36:33]
David Ornstein
What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate.
- [36:37]
Lead Human Podcast Hosts
Together, these are the questions we answer each week on Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler.
- [36:43]
David Ornstein
Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube.
- [36:48]
Lead Human Podcast Hosts
We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together.
- [36:55]
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- [38:04]
Adam Leventhal
Now we're going to focus on Argentina because they do stand in the way of England reaching the World Cup Final. Someone who's been following them all the way through this tournament is James Horncastle. Let's hear from him.
- [38:16]
James Horncastle
I've just been around the Coca Cola Museum. Atlanta is the city of Coca Cola. It's where they fiercely defend the secret formula in a vault. So what is the secret formula to this Argentina team? That's what I've been asking myself over the last few weeks because a lot of people think it's just vibes and Messi. Now I spoke to an analyst of a team who played against Argentina earlier this tournament and he said no, it's not that this is a team that defends like Atletico Madrid in the penalty area on set pieces. It's like playing against Arsenal and Messi's in always in the right place when Argentina on the counter attack and it's really difficult to defend against. So that's quite a rational explanation. But watching Argentina, they come across as quite irrational. We've all seen the emotional responses they've had in their games. This is an Argentina team that it's a group of players that's been together a long time that Loves being together. And I think that really matters. And they never know they're beaten. This is a team that's not only won the World cup four years ago, is trying to defend it as hard as Coca Cola defends their seat. Secret formula. They won the cup of America in Brazil, guys. They then retained that here in the US So they never know they're beaten. And you know, as much as the focus is on Messi, I think it's that spirit that is the hardest thing, that it's that England are going to come up against.
- [39:49]
Adam Leventhal
It's a bit ominous, isn't it? When James puts it like that. They don't know when they're beaten. They're also, and I saw shots of the Argentine players celebrating in the dressing room. We're doing it for Leo in his last World Cup. I mean, we said the last was
- [40:02]
Laura Williamson
his last World Cup.
- [40:03]
Adam Leventhal
He could probably do another World cup, to be honest. But it is ominous, isn't it? And it's going to be so tough for England to get past them.
- [40:09]
Laura Williamson
Yeah, it really is. And when, when you throw in as well, their success at set pieces like that doesn't, it's not very exciting. But like, was it six now? It's ludicrous. Those, like near post headers and I mean, I think going right back to that first Argentina game of this tournament when Messi, you know, disallowed goal and then that first goal and he looked so lean and so like ready for it and it's just, just carried on. But then as James says, that there's so much more, so much more than Messi and, and that, and that just refusal to be beaten. We've, I've seen it time and time again, Copa America and, and the World cup last time, it will be incredibly difficult. But then at the same time, like, are they the worst of the four left? You'd have to say on paper they're probably the worst team of the four, I think.
- [41:07]
Adam Leventhal
But aren't England the worst of the four?
- [41:09]
Laura Williamson
I don't, I don't, I don't, I really don't think they are. No, I really don't think they are. But equally, I don't think they're gonna be Argentina.
- [41:16]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, because of the, I mean, the intangibles almost the who, who's. Whose spirit is going to be stronger in that game or, or is it, is it a technical battle or is this just down to the, the, the history, the, the determination who. Whoever's going to get over the line.
- [41:32]
David Ornstein
I don't think the spirit is quite the right word because England have shown that in abundance in this tournament.
- [41:37]
Adam Leventhal
But it's going to have a battle
- [41:38]
David Ornstein
to use the two core mentality. Indeed. I always feel, and I've watched a lot of Argentina over the last few World Cups. It's like a religious pursuit of success for Messi and for their nation. And they rise up to be way more than the sum of their parts. Everyone's talking about, yeah, Messi Alvarez, Enzo Fernandez, and that's about it. But it's not because there's something more, as you say, intangible. And that's why it's going to be an unbelievable occasion in Atlanta on Wednesday. I just think slightly different to Laura. I think that England, you know, they've, they've got the weapons in Kane and Bellingham and, and Rice will be back to fitness and you suspect they'll try and deploy him and Anderson really shackle, try to shackle Messi again. It's very similar to the Harlan question of the supply line is more important than maybe trying to stop the person themselves. And so, so, you know, you mentioned, is it more tactical, technical side, but despite what Thomas Tuchel has said, that they've got to unleash the handbrake. Anthony Barry used that phrase. It's not really happening. England, in England are not playing a style and identity that I think the coaches want them to just yet, for whatever reason, the conditions and the anxiety. But they are playing winning football. They're getting through and that's maybe the Premier League style that he, he touched upon before. And I think that Argentina have gone past their peak, which was Qatar. Even though they're still competing now, they're not playing as well. They were very fortunate against Egypt and Cape Verde. Of course, they, they should have been out. Have they played since? Yeah, of course. They, Switzerland, they, they were, they were not playing well at all before the sending off and all of. Whereas in Qatar, I know they lost to Saudi Arabia, but they really grew into the tournament and I think England will edge them somehow.
- [43:34]
Adam Leventhal
Okay, this is good. This is good confidence. I wasn't, I wasn't necessarily expecting that. And it is amazing, isn't it, that this is the first time that Lionel Messi will face England. So you have that element as well. And he knows, obviously he's the, the greatest player that there's ever been. Arguably he knows the magnitude as well. He, he wants to be able to play England, he wants to be able to have a, a Maradona game against England, doesn't he? Yeah.
- [43:58]
Laura Williamson
Absolutely. And then, I mean, sort of going into the knockouts, we're all like, oh, Argentina have got a really easy, really easy pathway to the, to the last four, or the final four, as everyone's calling it here, by the way. But then, yeah, as David said, they've made, they've made it really hard work for themselves. So, I mean, it just, it's just mouth watering. It's just mouth watering. And also to have the, the, the four top seeds in the, in the semi finals, like, I mean, it's just, it's set up perfectly.
- [44:30]
David Ornstein
Yeah, the seeding has worked. I just want to say quickly on Messi. I remember watching him against Iran in Bellow, or his own chiff. That's how it's pronounced in Brazil, 2014. We saw him in, in Qatar, didn't we? I saw him against Mexico where. I know a lot of people have been talking about this. There's a lot of walking, although he's running more at this tournament, I think. And then he just springs into life.
- [44:53]
Laura Williamson
Walks 63 of the time. Wow.
- [44:55]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [44:55]
Laura Williamson
Connor O' Neill worked.
- [44:56]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [44:56]
David Ornstein
Great stats.
- [44:57]
Lead Human Podcast Hosts
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Adam Leventhal
I caught up with him in the office actually, the other day and I was. And he, I said, what are you working on? Working on a piece about messy walking. I was like, I want to read that. That is, that is the one better
- [45:06]
Laura Williamson
than the one I wrote in Qatar where I just watched him.
- [45:09]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah, he walks a lot.
- [45:11]
David Ornstein
Yeah, I think that's the unknown. And it was the same for Harland. You know, can they do something out of nothing that ends your hopes? But that, that's the ultimate tie. It's the ultimate challenge for Messi against England. This will, this will be something of. One of many sort of crowning glories as he enters the later chapter of his career. But it will also be the ultimate test for Thomas Tuchel and his staff and players.
- [45:34]
Adam Leventhal
Now we're going to focus. I was going to say bigly there, like Donald Trump. We're going to focus bigly on France against Spain tomorrow on the show alongside the. The transfer wisdom of, of David. But let's just touch on. On Spain against France in, in Dallas. In terms of the. The superstars of the tournament. Lamina Malm maybe is the one who hasn't caught light as much as the others so far. So this is his, this is his time to shine.
- [46:03]
Laura Williamson
Oh, definitely. And he's already teed it up beautifully by sort of saying, well, you know, we've already beaten them in the last two. The last two times we've Met them is gonna, you know, why not.
- [46:12]
Adam Leventhal
This is. This.
- [46:13]
Laura Williamson
There's no pressure on us. And yeah, he's.
- [46:16]
James Horncastle
He.
- [46:17]
Laura Williamson
He is because he is everywhere, absolutely everywhere and he's the player that sort of more casual fans they just know about because obviously Barcelona and being. Being a bit younger. So yeah, it's just set up beautifully for. To see what. To see what he could do because Spain, to be. To be honest, have been a bit underwhelming in terms of they've done what they needed to do. I. From that opening draw, it's sort of. It's a bit meh, to be honest. So. And then when you compare France who have just been just beautiful to watch, that's the sort of. It feels like that's the, the. The football purist game. Whereas as we've said Argentina, England feels much more about the history and, and the sort of, I don't know, almost like the cultural setting. Whereas that's. That's the one for Michael Cox to get his teeth stuck into.
- [47:05]
Adam Leventhal
Do you feel anyone being able to stop France?
- [47:09]
David Ornstein
Very unlikely. The, the strength in depth is just extraordinary and they would need a serious off day. You know, they lost to Spain at last euros and, and so Spain's like death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? They could pass France into submission and they, they do have. Despite not being so aesthetically pleasing, they've got an unshakable belief in themselves to come through. Late in last couple of games they hadn't conceded for much of the tournament prior to they. They got given a real test by Portugal where they came through. And if Yamal does click and I'm not so sure he didn't have the best season and give him a lot of grace. He's still a very young player. I saw him at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea in the Champions League and, and he seemed more bothered about asking the referee to give bookings than actually play the game. I don't want him to go into that territory and it would be lovely to see him come to the forehead. But, but France have weapons everywhere and the, the confidence and even when you see somebody like Manukone who didn't start the tournament, come into midfield and boss it. I mean that's one we should talk about for the transfer market. I'm fascinated to see how that develops and you've got Mbappe able to create and score out of nothing. I mean, I don't. Apart. Yeah. Messi aside, I don't think anyone else has that left in the tournament where, you know, England really seem to earn their goals. Mbappe can just do it like he's on a different plane. And then Elise, who I'm delighted to have tipped as a potential player of the tournament. Let's see how that shakes up. Is just imperious. And so, yeah, you, you, you can pick out weaknesses in every team and you can't really in theirs. So you don't know what will happen on match day with all the various factors and, and things that can occur to change your perception. But on paper, famous last words. France should win this title.
- [49:05]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. But if anyone can grind out a result, it may well be Spain against France. If they can nullify their, their, their dangers. Right, we've got through a lot so far. We have a, A few things that I wanted to do before we end the do you know? Quiz. Do you remember what the question was?
- [49:23]
David Ornstein
Yeah.
- [49:24]
Adam Leventhal
Okay. The question was. Let me go.
- [49:27]
David Ornstein
Three goals in the Premier League.
- [49:28]
Adam Leventhal
33 goals.
- [49:29]
David Ornstein
Arsenal World cup winner.
- [49:31]
Adam Leventhal
Yes. In 184 games. A lot of correct answers. Thank you very much for sending them in. The answer was, of course, David Ornstein.
- [49:41]
David Ornstein
Patrick Vieira.
- [49:42]
Adam Leventhal
No, it wasn't.
- [49:44]
Laura Williamson
It wasn't.
- [49:46]
Adam Leventhal
No. Oh, this is good. This is Gilberto Silva. No.
- [49:49]
David Ornstein
Emmanuel Petit.
- [49:50]
Adam Leventhal
No, this is very good. What drama we've got. This is like one of those World cup games we've been digesting. Okay, well, a lot, A lot of people have got the correct answer on Mezut Erzil. And who was the last one to send it in? Spamfish. Well done, Spam fish. You get a shout out because you sent in the answer.
- [50:14]
Laura Williamson
It was good.
- [50:15]
Adam Leventhal
I like that. I wasn't expecting that.
- [50:17]
David Ornstein
Late drama really shows we don't do our research before.
- [50:21]
Adam Leventhal
That was good. I like it. And one other. Let's just, just quickly bring up a question if we can. One audience question. Because this will sort of lead in to some of the discussions that we'll have later on in the week when we. We don't have games and we're building up to the final and things like that. We'll review the, the tournament One has come in for Laura. Let's just do this one. What's your opinion on a proposed 64 team World Cup?
- [50:46]
David Ornstein
Good luck, Laura. Oh, planning that one.
- [50:48]
Adam Leventhal
That's from Expantis Azerix.
- [50:52]
Laura Williamson
I think it, I think it will happen. I think it shouldn't happen. No, I mean, it just. We're big enough. I mean, the, it would, I do understand that it would get rid of that, you know, eight of the, of the 12 third place teams progress aspect. But no enough like this. This tournament has been. Is so long. There are so many games and, and I mean I think FIFA got away with it a bit in terms of the quality has been. Has been excellent but if you keep pushing that like the last thing you need are sort of, you know, five, six nillas in group stage and then a redundant third place games like enough. It's. It's huge this thing and let's just keep it like this for, for a while.
- [51:38]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah. And one quick one for David as well. We were talking about Yuri Tillemans earlier on. Teleman. Sorry, earlier on this question in from mgd, are United looking to sign two more midfielders after Santos Antilimans? And what profiles are they looking for for a third midfielder?
- [51:56]
David Ornstein
Not two more after those two. I would expect one. One more after those two which was always part of the plan.
- [52:02]
Adam Leventhal
Yeah.
- [52:03]
David Ornstein
Of course they've lost Ugate to injury as well as Casemiro departing. The Edison deal is not going to happen in its current guise. Now he may be considered by Manchester United to be that extra one later in the window. One, if Atalanta would still be interested if he's still available and two, whether the player would still be willing to do it after United having stepped away at this point in time. And they will have other candidates. They've been linked in recent days in the media to Manukone. Alex Scott is a player they love but Bournemouth insists he's not for sale at any price. And. And there will be others going further back. We were talking about players like the labor and Wharton and you know, so many different candidates have come and gone but United will have a, I think quite a clear vision on what they want for an added signing and I imagine looking at the profile of what they've got in there now, which is Kobbie Mainu, Andre Santos and impending Yuri Tielemans. They would want somebody with legs who can really cover ground and provide a bit of complementary qualities to what those players bring to the party, which is really ball playing and control. They're industrious and there's some creativity in there. Andre Santos data for ball retention is incredibly high, but they need someone that can run and they'll be well aware of that. So it'd be fascinating to see which direction they go in.
- [53:25]
Adam Leventhal
Well, we have to run but you've ended there. Someone with legs, David. Great. We can see your legs and people have been very complimentary about your legs as well, which you also mentioned, which is great. Time has beaten us thank you very, very much for sending in all of your questions, your comments, the right answer to the quiz, which you managed to do far better than these two did,
- [53:48]
David Ornstein
got there in the end.
- [53:49]
Adam Leventhal
You got there in the end. You got there in the end.
- [53:52]
David Ornstein
Next time I'm going to google it and look at the screen.
- [53:54]
Adam Leventhal
I think you should. Yes, thank you very much, David. Thank you, Laura for being here. A reminder to you that the athletics coverage throughout the World cup is completely free on our app, so don't miss out. You can watch or listen to us wherever you get your podcast. Do subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're going to be back live once again tomorrow from our studio here in New York. We're going to be getting stuck in fully to all the transfer issues because David is going to be back with us. Reuben Pinder, who's been traveling all over Canada, Mexico and the United States, is going to be making his debut on this show as well. Thank you very much for joining us. We'll catch you tomorrow. Take care.
- [54:49]
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