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- [00:01]
IO Akimolere
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars, place bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 in New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1, 800, bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico for first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code THEATHLETIC and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager. This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham. Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh Football Club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in pyramid with their eyes set on the Championship League, the stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu.
- [01:44]
Danny Kelly
Race the rudders, Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [01:48]
IO Akimolere
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [02:25]
Phil Hay
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, Ay Akimolere. Spurs Europa League run has been the shining light in an otherwise disappointing season Pedro Poro.
- [02:37]
IO Akimolere
Oh yes, that'll ceiling.
- [02:42]
Phil Hay
Book your tickets, your hotel rooms.
- [02:45]
Danny Kelly
Spurs are going to Bilbao and Pedro Porro has sealed it.
- [02:50]
Phil Hay
And they have a chance to end a 17 year wait for a major trophy on Wednesday night. So what would it mean for the club and manager Ant Postecoglou if they win the Europa League? Right. Joining me today is the one and only legend and host of our spurs podcast, View from the Lane. It's none other than Danny Kelly and also another legend writer of the Athletic FC newsletter, Phil Hay is also with us as well. Gents, great to have you with us, Danny. Let's get into this. It's been 17 years and 80 days, not that I'm counting, since spurs last major trophy. Danny, they have a chance to end an unwanted streak tomorrow. Real talk, Danny. And I know you've been here before. Are you nervous?
- [03:38]
Danny Kelly
Do you know what? Normally I'm not nervous before these games IO because, you know, you become used to it. I've seen spurs in, I've worked out the other, if you include replays, probably the thick end of 20 cup finals. And I've got used to not being nervous about them because I can't do anything about them. It's the illogical position that football fans occupy. The thing that we're absolutely insane about, passionate to use that over used word, is the thing we can do least about. We're not the players, we can't do anything about it. But this one, I am really nervous because I think it's a gigantic game for Tottenham. Not just the ending of this streak thing, but I think there's a, there's a world where they use it, they win and they bounce straight back into the Champions League. And much of the damage that's been done to the club and the team over the past six years since the Champions League final 2019 is reversed. There's also a scenario where they don't win and players start pining for the Champions League or at least their agents do. And spurs cement themselves despite being the 9th richest club on the planet, into mid table mediocrity. I think it's that stark the choice of what's going to happen. Now of course the truth often comes between those two extremes, but it's a huge game for Tottenham, the club and for the fans as well. But that's a separate thing for the club. It's a huge business game for spurs fans, it's just an enormous thing that, you know, if they could throw this, throw the trophy drought thing off, off, that would be Magnificent. But also there are young people I know who've supported spurs for 10, 15 years, have never had their faith validated with a trophy. They need that. There are people of my vintage who can't help looking in the shaving mirror in the morning or the hair mirror in the morning. Not everyone shaves and a little voice goes off. Am I actually going to get to the finishing line without ever seeing them win another trophy? There's a huge amount rising for spurs fans. So yes, I am bloody nervous. Yeah.
- [05:33]
Phil Hay
Yeah. I tell you what, Phil, you know, I was looking at the Newcastle winning the League Cup. I was also looking at palace winning the FA cup very recently. And I just thought perhaps this is one of those years where it's the year. Bologna, unlikely winners. Yeah, Bologna, 51 years.
- [05:47]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [05:48]
Phil Hay
Another one.
- [05:49]
Danny Kelly
Yeah.
- [05:49]
Phil Hay
Good. Good call, Danny. Is it time for Spurs? Because I don't think they. I think it's quite an even final, personally. But you know, spurs trophy drought, this could be a real moment.
- [06:01]
Jack Pitt Brook
I can relate to this. I mean, I was, I was 17 when, when hearts won the Scottish cup up north and they waited for 40 odd years for that. And the, the general sense around the club was it was never ever going to happen. And you were going to die in your 80s or 90s having seen nothing other than the odd cup final defeat and, and kind of no shows in the quarterfinals and earlier. And Bologna is a, is a great story actually. Over in Italy, Newcastle once so unlikely. I mean it's been a long time coming. 70 years domestically, but they aren't having to punch above their weight anymore. They're littered with quality players. They'd most likely finished in second in the Premier League if they'd won at Arsenal over the weekend. So realistically there was a fair chance that the trophy was coming at some stage. Palace are different. A bit wary of the full blown fairy tale narrative with them because one of the shareholders, John Texter, is a billionaire. They've been taking in Premier League income for well over a decade now, but they're not a bottomless pit of cash. And actually if you go down to Selhurst park, you do get the sense of a club who are about as connected locally as any Premier League club are these days. They're still hardcore South London and they don't seem to have lost that at all. With Spurs. I think you could describe a trophy this season as unlikely because of how unspeakably appalling the league form has. But Tottenham winning the Europa League, that is one of the big sixes we Used to talk about winning Europe's secondary competition. It's not exactly a Disney script. It would just be a very odd end to a year in which they've looked pretty rudderless for an awful lot of it.
- [07:31]
Danny Kelly
Very Spursy to win it this year, wouldn't it? Very Spursy to win it. The useless.
- [07:35]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, but that's exactly it. But it would give a completely different complexion to the year. You know, all that frustration and then suddenly you're picking up a notable trophy and you're heading for the Champions League. It's a big silver lining if they can do it.
- [07:51]
Phil Hay
Yeah, Danny, it's a. It's a massive silver lining. But, you know, you spoke about certain spurs fans, never seen their team win anything, really. Young ones in particular. I wonder what it would mean for those fans. And actually, do you know what, I wonder what it would mean for the whole club to lift this trophy. You know, they. They've won it before in 1972 and 84 when. What the. The UEFA Cup. A lot of us still remember that. But, you know, in recent history, I mean, let's not forget, spurs have been to a Champions League final in the last few years as well. But this is massive.
- [08:24]
Danny Kelly
Yeah, it is. You know, people like me know, you know, Spurs's connection with Europe is notable. They were the first British team to win a European trophy. They were the first British team to win two different European trophies. But that has dried up in recent decades. And the team that didn't win the champions league in 2019 is the best spurs team I've ever seen. And I watched them win, as I say in the early 70s, then again the early 80s, win multiple trophies. But that was an amazing team that didn't win it. Look, the banter that the spurs never win a trophy and all the rest of it that would end. And it's more annoying now than anything else because clearly they should. Look, somebody did a piece of research the other day and of course in the Athletic, where all these things go on showing that Spurs's average points per season, no team in the top five leagues in Europe has gone 17 years with that average points without winning one of their. Their local trophies or a European trophy. So it's an anomaly, it's an outrider that that monkey could be got off their back. But also, as I say, it just be. Let's not get into the modern thing of thinking. The world is only the Premier League and the Champions League. The Europa League is a fantastic competition. It's been made slightly easier this week. This year rather by not parachuting the losers out of the Champions League groups, let's be honest about that. And it would be fantastic for them to win it. It has all that business stuff about getting back into the Champions League and as say you can always shut up players, agents then as well. And it has the personal thing of individual spurs fans, groups of spurs fans who watch the games together or go to the games together or go to the pub together and the sort of unspoken global network that every club has of people who just are spurs. They could all breathe a huge sigh of relief, punch the air. It would be joyous thing, a thing of absolute joy. And until spurs suffered the latest crop of injuries, this time in midfield rather than defence, I was pretty sure that they were going to do it. But been things have changed a little bit slightly since then.
- [10:29]
Jack Pitt Brook
It is strange how some clubs get a complex in cup competitions and a complex when it comes to actually winning anything. I mean, back in the 80s and 90s when fanzines were massively in vogue, there was a fanzine at Hearts that was specifically called Always the Bridesmaid. And that's because that's what we were constantly when I covered Leeds for years. They haven't won the FA cup since 1972 and the record in it is becoming so bad. I mean they haven't been to the semi final since the mid to late 80s. I remember doing a column after Bielsa's team, which is about as good a Leeds team as there's been for 20 years, were beaten 30 down at Crawley and the headline to it was Leeds in the FA Cup. Why do they hate each other? And that's kind of how it feels. And you know, Danny's right. The run that Tottenham on kind of defies analysis and defies statistics. And it does, over time get into people's heads.
- [11:20]
Danny Kelly
It does. And you could argue that it's a historical balancing because when spurs won the FA cup in 1991, they then had more FA Cups than anybody else until they lost to Liverpool in 1983 in the league cup final. They'd never lost a cup final. In fact, I think they went deep into the 20th century without ever losing an FA cup semi final. So they had this astonishing record in cup competitions. That's why the business of them being a cup team came from. And now in the last 25 years, you know, with one exception of the the 2008 League cup, they've won nothing. They've actually managed to turn. I think spurs have been in about 15, 16 major semi finals this century and managed to turn that into one trophy. Again, it doesn't bear any thinking about. But the important thing here, IO. And Phil, I think, is we can talk about this. We are students of the game, we are fans of the game. I'll tell you who won't be talking about this, the spurs players. The spurs players, they are 22, 23 years of age, they got no knowledge of this. They don't care about this sort of stuff. Indeed, if they want to talk about. And you know, you see the, the football men, the ex players on the TV going, I think Manchester United will win because they always win. You know, I think that's a load of rubbish. I think it's absolute piffle. You win with the players, you have 16 of them on that rectangle of grass. It's not to do with history and the echoes of history and the badge you're wearing. I just don't buy that. And indeed, if they want to go that route, spurs players, the younger ones can look around the dressing room. There's son Heun Ming, he's won the Asian championship. There's a World cup winner. They don't have the same scars that we carry around with us and certainly hearts fans carry around with Denfield.
- [13:08]
Jack Pitt Brook
I sort of broadly agree with that. But the only way in which I do disagree is that poor form or track records in certain competitions, like cup competitions, definitely, definitely get into the heads of supporters. And the one thing it can do is create a bit of an atmosphere among those supporters. I've seen it in stadiums, particularly in the playoffs with Leeds actually, where you can kind of feel the tension on the basis that the natural assumption whenever Leeds are in the playoffs is that they're going to lose. And it does create this sort of underlying nervousness that I think can affect the players. But these days I think most are too professional and too switched on to get deeply affected by it. I wanted to ask Danny something though, because to me, I don't think that the many, many years without a trophy will play on the minds of Tottenham's crowd tomorrow so much as the fact that they've been so flaky this season and they're so badly down on numbers. If you were feeding defeat tomorrow, wouldn't it be down more to what's gone on under postecoglou and the way it's been over the past 12 months than the fact that there's been no trophy since, what is it, 2008?
- [14:11]
Danny Kelly
Of course, of course the, the team is what it is now it is. The shirt remains the same. The club in one way apart from being, you know, a financial institution, the company really exists. All football clubs only really exist as the collective memory of their supporters. But in reality they are where they are. Spurs and they are really not a very good team most weeks now the, the injuries has. Has played into that. Obviously they lost their whole, the whole defense at one stage. A defense which they are more reliant on in this final than they would normally be because they've got no midfield. The point your question I think Phil, is that is that we have to deal with what we are just at the moment. And for 18 months after the initial flush of success with postecoglou systems and players and things, spurs have been on an increasingly painful descent to the point now where they are very likely, unless they win the last game, to end up on an average of one point per game. Now I think you have to be honest about that. They have chucked the second half of the season, haven't they in the league. They have for various reasons had to pick and choose teams that were never going to compete in the Premier League. Particularly not one as physically demanding as the one they have now.
- [15:32]
Jack Pitt Brook
I think if I was in Bilbo tomorrow I'd be more concerned about which version of Tottenham are going to turn up and whether it's going to be the side who've been struggling all season as opposed to the fact that spurs just don't tend to do it on these nights historically.
- [15:45]
Danny Kelly
Oh no, no, no. And that's absolutely right. And but the thing is, I think the version of spurs going to turn up is no longer an option for them because they can't without the, the creative players, without Madison, without Kulusevsky, they, they can only play one way. They can only hope to out physique, outrun out fight and out strength. A Manchester United team that won't give in to that as Boda Glimt did. I think Boda Glimp had a tremendous wake up call that they're a fantastic team within their own levels. But the Premier League over the past two years has become, it's certainly overtaken France as the most physical league in world football. Most Premier League teams now, and I'm looking at you, IO and Arsenal are eight giants who can run forever and two or three technical geniuses to try and get the ball through the other eight giants on the other side. And Bodeglimp ran into a wall of human muscle with spurs and they had no answer to it at all. You could say almost the same thing happened with Frankfurt, particularly in the game in Germany where they were I think first shocked and then unable to cope with the physicality that spurs, even Spurs's half and half team, was able to bring out onto the pitch. Manchester United, of course, have much the same, because that's what you have in the Premier League now. But spurs will have to play and I'm sure you're going to get onto this IO spurs going to have to play very differently from the idea that people have a Spurs inverted fullbacks, people bombing down the wing, crosses across the goal for the other winger to come in and score. They don't have those resources in the team at the moment.
- [17:19]
IO Akimolere
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Accamulere. This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham, Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh Football Club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in the pyramid with their eyes set on the Championship League. The stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu. As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollar. First bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10, place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 In New York, call 1-800-next step in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 In Puerto Rico, first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel don't forget if you haven't seen signed up for BETMGM yet, use bonus code theathletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the boy? Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results terms and conditions apply.
- [19:45]
Phil Hay
Okay, well let's move on because now it's time for us to check in with our Tottenham writer Jack Pitt Brook, who for some reason decided to take a 32 hour ferry from Portsmouth to the to Bilbao for the match. He caught up with some spurs fans on the boat and let's have a listen to what they said.
- [20:05]
Danny Kelly
Well, it may have been a rocky.
- [20:06]
Phil Hay
Journey, but it's a night to savor a result to cherish. And spurs will dock in the Spanish port of Bilbao to contest the Europa.
- [20:15]
Danny Kelly
League final on May 21.
- [20:19]
Phil Hay
So I'm joined here by Views in the Lane listeners Paul and Ben, who I first met in Portsmouth at the ferry terminal just, just before we got on board. How are you guys feeling about the game?
- [20:30]
Danny Kelly
Not I've been a Tottenham fan for 34 years so I know not to be optimistic. Essentially I've never, I've never walked out.
- [20:37]
Phil Hay
Of something in my life thinking this is going to be great and it go great.
- [20:40]
Jack Pitt Brook
So I'm trying to remain pessimistic.
- [20:42]
Danny Kelly
I'm a little bit bolder with it. I got a feeling we'll do it. I just think the stars are aligning. We somehow managed to get here with all of the issues that we've had.
- [20:51]
IO Akimolere
To even try and get this trip.
- [20:53]
Danny Kelly
Booked because it's been an absolute nightmare. So I don't know, I feel optimistic. I think we've got a better team than Manchester United. They've got a couple of key players. I think Tottenham have to sort of keep an eye like the likes of Bruno Fernandez, who's going to be probably key in the game. But I don't know, I just think, I think Tottenham are finally going to break that hoop.
- [21:11]
Phil Hay
If Bologna can do it, if Crystal palace can do it, if Newcastle will.
- [21:14]
IO Akimolere
Do it, and if Harry Kane can do it.
- [21:16]
Phil Hay
Topham can do it.
- [21:17]
Danny Kelly
How much would it mean to you.
- [21:18]
Phil Hay
Guys to see Sonny and the lads.
- [21:20]
Danny Kelly
Lift the trophy on Wednesday night?
- [21:22]
Phil Hay
Oh, yeah.
- [21:22]
Danny Kelly
I mean, it's something we've always wanted, right? We've got season. We've had season tickets about six, seven years. So it's obviously something. It'd be incredible. My old man Hill back home can't come to something like this.
- [21:31]
Phil Hay
It'd be incredible.
- [21:32]
Danny Kelly
And you know, I mean, I've never been to a final where we've won yet and I don't want that to be a bad omen on bad vibes, but I didn't go to the 2008 final. Didn't get to Madrid, unfortunately. So I think just to see Tottenham actually lift the trophy in the flesh I think would be absolutely amazing. And I dread to think what state I might be in. Actually. I think I might 7am bus.
- [21:54]
IO Akimolere
I probably will cry and my other.
- [21:57]
Danny Kelly
Half will always give me stick for not crying at anything, but Tottenham might actually do that to me. So, yeah, I think it could be. It could be quite emotional, but I hope you do it.
- [22:11]
Phil Hay
Some absolutely wonderful optimism there, Danny. And do you agree with that fan? The stars are aligned. Considering there's no Kulusevsky, Madison or Bergval. And the point he carried on to make was that he thinks spurs have a better team than Manchester United.
- [22:28]
Danny Kelly
Well, first of all, the stars have not aligned. That is the opposite to true. Some spurs have lost at the wrong moment. Some of the most important cogs in their machine equally, don't forget they. They rely. We are all they have. The, the back five will be back in place. This is an experiment in, in. In human flesh and bone, isn't it? Because most of them, Udogi Van de Ven and Christian Romero have hardly played any football for the past two months. They had 45 minutes here, 45 minutes there. It is not ideal preparation for the test that lies ahead. I do think though, and it's not just about, you know, people will know from the view, from the lane that I take the opposite view of what Spursy means. It doesn't mean bottling, it means doing things that you don't expect them to do. And this is exactly the sort of situation where I think they could with everything that's gone against them in the past few weeks and the whole season. You know, Phil, we're not pretending they're any good. Particularly they. They could come on and win this, I'll give you. Look, there's a. There's an incredible parallel I was on the ground in 1984 when they won the last trophy against Anderlecht, when Anderlecht really were a brilliant team in the. In the UEFA cup final, the equivalent of this competition. Spurs had a manager who everyone knew was leaving because he said he was leaving. The great Keith Birkenshaw. So there's the manager. They had an injury crisis the like of which is only been paralleled in the last season. They went into the game without Steve Perryman, Glenn Hoddle, Ozzy Ardiles and Ray Clements who would have been numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4 to captain aside. Graham Roberts, captain aside and scored the all important equalizer led to the penalty shootout. The reserve goalkeeper then saves the penalty. So in incredible adversity they found a way to win the trophy. And that's. That's my hope that they will do something as madly Spursy as that. As for. Are they a better team than Manchester United? I think you can put cigarette paper between most of the squads in the Premier League at the moment. Liverpool have outstanding way of playing and a manager who is not too proud to change the way they play for a game or half a game. We live in the curse of the era of the philosopher manager. My way or the highway nonsense. In a game which is so chaotic as Football United have they've done some pretty bad purchasing over the past umpteen years. They're overpaying for players who then underperform. I don't think that's all down to the manager. I think it's just bad planning. But lots of clubs are like that. There's. There's nothing to choose between. I mean we had a year where the. The poor teams who came up were just, you know, eviscerated, marmalized, atomized by the Premier League. I watched it very closely. My brother's a Ipswich Town fan and I've watched many of the games, you know, on TV and things with him and watching them run into the. The quality of the Premier League has been painful to watch Southampton or a joke at this level but I would take away. I. I want to say. I want to say Arsenal as well. IO just. Just to please you. There you are.
- [25:37]
Phil Hay
It's just something Our video producer Liam's a big stuff up so bad.
- [25:43]
Danny Kelly
He knows exactly what I'm saying, doesn't he? He knows I' Yeah, well, of course.
- [25:51]
Phil Hay
Even more his team's gone.
- [25:53]
Danny Kelly
No. Unless. Unless he lives in the Southampton fantasy world where they're a good team and Tyler dibling is worth 100 million quid you. Spurs are. Spurs are what they are. The league table, it doesn't lie. It can tell occasional porky. Which doesn't allow for spurs and Manchester United slightly chucking games. Although you like done less of it. Spurs have really chucked a lot of these games. I think it's ridiculous. Of course I want them to win every game.
- [26:22]
Jack Pitt Brook
I feel like Man United have completely written off the Premier League. It seems like it's. They've nailed everything to the.
- [26:29]
Danny Kelly
The difference is their manager hasn't admitted that. He. He keeps on.
- [26:32]
Jack Pitt Brook
That's true. Yeah.
- [26:33]
Danny Kelly
There is a difference.
- [26:34]
Phil Hay
But the thing is, Phil, though, I mean, look at Spurs's record against United. I think spurs are unbeaten in the last six games against Manchester United. The five of those are under postecoglou. Look, are United favorites coming into this? Because both teams, no disrespect, have been very woeful in the league this season. Both teams have been very wasteful in the league this season. And I know United when it comes to trophies in the last, let's say five, six, seven years, have a bit more under the locker. But I've never thought of a final like this that feels a bit more.
- [27:04]
Jack Pitt Brook
Even maybe very marginal favorites. In fact, I don't really. I don't really feel like they are. I don't feel like Tottenham are either of them. We were saying before we came, we started recording. I'm not sure I've ever seen a more 50, 50 unpredictable could go either way matchup in my life. For all that Tottenham haven't been great in the league. United got away with murder against Lyon in that game at Old Trafford. Despite the fight back and despite all the noise and attention around it, you know, they were very lucky not to. To go out that night. And their form under Amarim in the league is so bad. It's. It's untrue. I mean, I always feel like if this wasn't season one for them, there's no way he'd be surviving this Europa League final or not. It's. It's really strange. And to go back to what I was saying, I do feel as if Man United have essentially said, look, we might as well finish 17th is finished 15th. It makes no difference. We're not getting relegated because of. As Danny explained that the trouble of the bottom three, there's been that. That big safety net that was always going to catch them. So it has become kind of Europa League or bust. And I do feel like to look at the results that, you know, the Premier League has almost Been written off for them until we get going again in, in August, with both sides at full strength, I'd be sticking the mortgage on Spurs. If I had to bet the mortgage, there's every chance I'd lose it, granted. But I do like their best fully fit 11 more than I like Man United's best fully fit 11. The fact is spurs are not at full strength and Kulusevsky, you know, on top of everything else is such a big, big loss for them. And that, that is the sort of kick in the teeth that could just tip things against them when it comes to it. But I don't think Man United can be much more confident about this game than Tottenham can be. I don't think either will have huge amounts of underlying confidence, if truth be told.
- [28:51]
Phil Hay
Yeah. Does league position matter, Danny? You know, both teams are, are woeful in the league right now. I mean, in any other league situation, these both teams on this current tally of points would relegated, to be honest with you. I mean, but this is still a Cup tie. This is still a final. You know, you still have the opportunity to salvage something what has been not the greatest season.
- [29:13]
Danny Kelly
I mean, league position doesn't matter in this game that's coming up clearly, but that will all fade, fade into insignificance if they can win this game and qualify for next year's Champions League. Now, the league position doesn't matter at all. What we have here is one that is an almost insanely pure sporting situation, isn't it, where everything that's gone before in the season and everything that the players know about their team. And you're right, Phil, as far as at full strength, I think I would make them slight favorites, but they're not. But they have something that even footballers follow all the way. They're pampered. And all the money they get paid and all the rest of it, which, you know, who wouldn't sign those contracts, I've got no problem with that. But they are presented here with something that money can't buy. The one thing in life that you can't get just by willing it or buying it is opportunity that has to be handed to you, that has to come your way. And the players of both sides here have an enormous opportunity to turn a frankly ridiculous, and it is ridiculous how bad they've been in the league, both of them, although they ought to be careful because being bad becomes a habit. They have an opportunity here to turn not just one night of glory to produce one night of glory and a trophy, which matters more at spurs than it does to Manchester United, though I'm not underplaying how much it matters to Manchester United as well. But to change the whole way that they're looked at historically, in Spurs's case, it is nuts. Here it is. If they win, it is statistically with the trophy. Spurs is best season for a generation, better than all the great teams under Pochettino. If they lose, it is the worst spurs team. And now I ask you to put a date on it. I think I worked back in over 110 years before they lost 20. They've already lost 25 games. I think they could end up losing 27 games in a season and be the worst spurs team ever. It's that much on the line. Which of course is just delicious for everybody who isn't a supporter of either of the clubs, and particularly IO for Arsenal fans. You can't lose, can you? Because either spurs or Man United are going to lose. It's a brilliant thing.
- [31:26]
Phil Hay
I don't know who I want to win this. This is the weird one. I mean, Phil, I. I can't think of a time where two teams have made a final like this and have been so bad when it comes to their league form, surely.
- [31:37]
Jack Pitt Brook
I don't know what it says about the Europa League really, that teams in 16th, 17th have made it this far. And I think to. To give tot Jew. That win over Eintracht in particular was a big result. Showed a really, really thick skin and they have had a thicker skin.
- [31:51]
Phil Hay
Former winners of the cup, actually.
- [31:52]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And, you know, third in the Bundeslig in Germany going into the Champions League.
- [31:56]
Danny Kelly
And United got seven against a very, very good Bilbao team.
- [31:59]
Jack Pitt Brook
Yeah, absolutely. And have. Have actually got it together on that front in a way that they just haven't been able to domestically. I mean, neither season ticket's been value for money at all. Man United have got six wins at home and 21 goals like that. That's what you pay for when your team's going down. But it does mean that league form is totally relevant tomorrow because neither side have any. You know, it's that simple, isn't it? It's not as if spurs or Man United, they're on a run of 6, 7, 8, 9 games without defeat. So, you know, you can analyze the fixture on. On that basis. And any time these two play in the Premier League, not to put too fine a point in it, I jot it down as a defeat. It's almost. It feels almost inevitable at the moment. And. And at best, they'll dig it out against teams so far down the table they can they can hardly fail to games. But I think it's it's strange scenario where if whoever wins in in Bilbo can kind of jot this down as a successful season. But the fact that so much is resting on one game and that it's taken one solitary game to rescue everything for them tells you that neither. You know, both seasons have been anything but.
- [33:13]
IO Akimolere
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code theathletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny467-369 in New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050. Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico, first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic, plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager. This episode is supported by FX's welcome to Wrexham. Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds. Welsh Football Club has made history, becoming the first team ever to achieve three consecutive promotions. Watch history unfold this season as Wrexham climbs higher in the pyramid. With their eyes set on the Championship League, the stakes get higher with a new level of intensity, competition and costs. FX's welcome to Wrexham Thursdays on FX, stream on Hulu Race the runners.
- [34:57]
Danny Kelly
Race the sails. Raise the sails.
- [35:00]
IO Akimolere
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- [35:30]
Danny Kelly
This is the Athletic FC.
- [35:32]
Phil Hay
Podcast with IO Acamolera. Right, let's move on quickly to Ange Postlecoglu. Phil, you know, he's been quite consistent in his manager, in his messaging. I should say that he always wins a or something in his second season at least. And I don't know whether this is a blessing or a curse for him. But you know, you look at Amarim on the other side, you'd like to think regardless of what happens in this final, there is still a bit of a rope left for him to do his work. Where do you think the rope is for Antepostecoglou and his job, regardless of what happens in this final?
- [36:07]
Jack Pitt Brook
Good question. Do you know what resonated with me a little bit unexpectedly was the speech he did in the dressing room after the the semi final against Bodo Glimt after they went through and how engaged I thought the players seemed to be with it. What you've gone through this year, let.
- [36:22]
Phil Hay
Me tell you, I've been in this.
- [36:23]
Jack Pitt Brook
Game a long time, very experienced. I've experienced it all. But.
- [36:26]
Phil Hay
But I'm so proud of how all of you have just stuck together to come to this place, difficult place, win comfortably. But the whole time through all the things we've had to deal with as people who aren't with us today, yeah, we're back home. Fraser's played a big part then Sunny's.
- [36:41]
Danny Kelly
Played a big part.
- [36:41]
Phil Hay
It's Mattis, Lucas, Radu, they've all played a big part.
- [36:45]
Danny Kelly
Everyone's contributed and that's the main thing.
- [36:47]
Phil Hay
That'S got us in this point. Yeah, we've had problems for sure. Stuck together.
- [36:52]
Danny Kelly
You deserve it. Now we've got two weeks, just under.
- [36:54]
Phil Hay
Two weeks to prepare. You saw what you did. 400 supporters here today. They'll never forget it and there's thousands back home. You can make it something really special. Keep saying to you this is the.
- [37:04]
Danny Kelly
Group of players that are going to do.
- [37:08]
Jack Pitt Brook
Doesn't seem to me as if they're done with him mentally. The relationship there still seems to be fairly strong despite everything. And I guess on that basis, sacking him isn't necessarily as easy or as productive a move as it might seem to to some people. We've all been Assuming that winning the Europa League was more likely to change things for him than it was for. For Amaran, because it might save his job. Amarim, things Danny said, is most likely safe either way. Although neither of them would get away with their teams being this woeful again next season. You know, that that goes. Goes without saying.
- [37:40]
Danny Kelly
They wouldn't make October, would they? On the current poor.
- [37:43]
Jack Pitt Brook
No, I really don't think they would. And I mean, Amarim was almost saying himself a week or so ago, if I can't sort this out next season, I'm pretty much going to have to go. And that's how it would be. The thing is, though, it doesn't make that much sense, I don't think, strategically, for a club's faith in a manager to be swayed by one match, that might sound a bit stupid, but spurs either have confidence in Postecoglou or they don't. And the Europa League final shouldn't fundamentally change that, because if it does, then they're not. Not thinking dispassionately, which I always think is quite important. You know, when it, when it comes to what you're deciding to do with, with a coach. If, if the thought process is, he's gone if we don't win on Wednesday, but he's fine if we do. It doesn't really smack of a club with the courage of the convictions. And I'm really, really fascinated to see how Levy and the board at spurs call this. More to the point, whether they've already called it privately, my gut feeling, and from what we're reading and seeing everywhere, it feels as if Andrew's time might be up no matter what. But doing that becomes so much more difficult if he's holding the Europa League and if he's got them into the Champions League.
- [38:51]
Phil Hay
Yeah, Danny, what does this fan base see Ange Postecoglon next season, regardless of what happens on Wednesday? I mean, be honest, because I think trying to read the room here, but you don't feel like he's got the same kind of rope as Amarim does, who's just, just technically beginning his job at Manchester United and also came in halfway through the season.
- [39:11]
Danny Kelly
I, oh, I may be stupid and I may be wrong about most things, but I'm never dishonest. I don't think any question that he's leaving at the end of the season, I think it's, it's, it's as obvious as the nose on my face. Because if you're not one of the clubs who is funded by an American hedge Fund or oil money or a state. What you require succeed, and this is in. In England and beyond, is an absolutely laser focus on the football team. Now, spurs don't have that because they are there is part of them. It's focused on growing the value of the business. But in this case they have to be laser focused if they want to be serious about the manager. And the truth is, and I understand the injuries and all the rest of it, that Postecoglou's record will not allow him to stay. You cannot sustain those defeats even with a win in the Europa League. Now this is complicated ever so slightly by the fact that spurs don't have a. The director of football is currently up in the air. The new CEO, the guy was at Arsenal. He doesn't start till July. So who is going to appoint this manager and will he have the approval? Of course, this is all going on in the background. I'm sure they're all working away in the background. And the other complicating issue is there isn't an obvious candidate because who would want to take over spurs as they currently are. Having said that, he organizes the win and the job suddenly becomes much more attractive to many more excellent managers. But I don't think he can survive the season we've had. And you ask for a fan's view and of course it's slightly exaggerated. And there is of course the. You'll have been through this at Arsenal in the early days of Mikel Arteta, in, out and all the rest of that stuff. Stuff, as if we have any control over that. Fans getting out, getting. Getting the rack, the backsides on fire, Ange out. As if I have any control over it at all. He has in the last two or three months gone into a kind of damage limitation mode with the press. You know, he's pretty niggly with the press. He's entirely. Can do what he likes. He's a grown man. But he must expect us to respond to it. And also he's been gaslighting the spurs fans, seeing one thing on the pitch and then being told it's something else. And we don't understand it has not gone down well with the Spurs F. And I understand it because some of these interviews he gives are not relating to the football as it is, but they are in fact preparations for his next job interview, aren't they? Where he can say, I had these injuries, I had to do this and that with the league and all the rest of it. And when he can turn around and say Anno won The Europa League, well, fantastic. But I suspect the best scenario for everybody will be for spurs to win. He can then leave with his head held high and I will applaud him because it's a great achievement. But they cannot hide away from a League season that has teetered between horrible and disastrous.
- [42:08]
Jack Pitt Brook
I thought that week last season where spurs lost to Manchester City and the title was on the line was a bit of a tipping point. He seemed to completely misread the way in which the crowd were going to approach that fixture and what they wanted to happen in that fixture. And he didn't seem to particularly like the attitude towards that fixture, the idea that it might be better to lose it so that Arsenal don't win the title. And whatever you view on that, there's no doubt that local rivalry, whatever you are, makes people see things in their own way and sometimes in funny ways or ways that other people might criticize. But that's how it was. He didn't seem to react particularly well to that. I think he found it difficult to digest the atmosphere around him and it doesn't seem as if it's ever recovered. In terms of damage limitation, though I've seen this with a lot of managers, I do understand why they. They do it because you sometimes get into scenarios where if. If you're going to be totally, thoroughly, painfully honest about what's going on, you're pretty much calling for your. For your own sacking. But it's interesting to hear because I would, you know, 100% wanted to hear Danny's view on this. It's. It's interesting to me because I think that the results say that he will go. I think. I think Tottenham will, will go for a change. But it's interesting to hear that Danny seems to be moving in the direction of thinking that, yes, he does need to go.
- [43:28]
Danny Kelly
Oh, look, I mean, this is. This is tricky because it's not personal. I want people to do well and I wish him nothing but the best, but he has. When I. I've got to be careful here because we've got a heart support in the room. When I sometimes say, look, winning in Scotland with Celtic, where you have got 20 of the 25 best players in the, in the, in the whole league, in one, in one squad, well done. And all the rest of it. Premier League is different level and one of the reasons why the Premier League is the best league in the world is not because it attracts all the best players, because that isn't even true. Because look at the players that go to Spain it's because of the coaching. It attracts the best coaches in the world. And the second. And I can go back to that ridiculous game where spurs went down nine men, played on a halfway line and lost to Chelsea. The crowd cheered the spurs team off the pitch that day. He came out and said the phrase, that's just how we are. We are, mate. I got booed at a public event when I, when I called him out on this because everybody thought his most brilliant spurs performance and all the rest of it. My issue was that if you're a coach going, oh, so that's how you're going to play every game, is it? And people have just seen through it ever since. Now look, it was never that revolutionary, that great run they had when he first arrived. People have been inverting their fullbacks, perhaps not quite as madly as spurs and perhaps not both at the same time. But look at Lewis Skelly at Arsenal. He often ends up beyond the center circle on the other side of the pitch. I know he's a midfield player by trade. Team's been doing this for a while. It wasn't any great record. And if it was a. If Ange Ball was this brilliant thing, why wasn't everybody else doing it? He has not dealt with the standards in the Premier League and also you have the injuries. That's when a really great manager finds a way to deal with the problems. We just carried on the same way until in the end the players have become exhausted by Angel. Our best performances in the Europa League against Brentford recently have been ones where we've had very little of the ball and just defended well and broke out. It's no discredit to him. Many great managers have come a cropper in the Premier League and gone on to do well elsewhere as well. Could Ancelotti, the best manager in the world currently, could he turn Everton into something else? No, because the standard of coaching and players in the Premier League is too high. It's no disgrace or personal disgrace to him to fail at spurs, but that's what's happened. Let's be truthful in the regards what happens tomorrow night. And trust me, I'm full of positivity. All I want for him is to win that trophy. Good for the club, good for the fans, good for him. Head held high, shake hands. We have to move on.
- [46:09]
Phil Hay
Yeah, very quickly before we wrap up, Danny, I want to ask you for the surreal.
- [46:14]
Danny Kelly
Now.
- [46:14]
Phil Hay
I want you to imagine you are Angepostecoglou right now. You probably know you might not be here next season. You haven't had the best season with these players, but yet you still want them to believe in you enough to try and get something out this final. What are you saying to them?
- [46:30]
Danny Kelly
He's an intelligent guy and he clearly connects with human beings pretty well. You saw that speech he made as you. As Phil referred to, I think, and this is philosophy rather than football tactics. I think he has to try and lock into that energy that groups of young people can develop through camaraderie. I see it in groups, musicians, where they have one great record, one great album in them. You see it in the Leicester City team that won the title. They're never going to win it another year. The energy they expended in winning it in 2016 was not replicable. I would try and lock into the energy that a group of people, musicians, footballers, soldiers, whoever can have once only. And again I go back to this thing of opportunity, make them concentrate not on the cost of the failure or what it would mean, but on what the prize for success would be. And in their cases, they still get paid. Whether they win or lose, they're still famous. Whether they win or lose, they still held the gold plated cars where they win or lose. What they don't have when they lose is the legendary states that would come with victory. And it's that that I would try to put into their minds. You can overnight mean that schoolboys will still be talking about you in 50 years time.
- [47:47]
Jack Pitt Brook
That's what he has to tap into, which is that this might never ever come again. This, this might not be an opportunity that arises for you in the future. We've got a great piece coming on the Athletic. I think it'll be tomorrow morning. Wednesday is memories and open letters from friends and family members to of the players at Spurs. And I had a letter sent to me from Archie Gray's cousin Nick, the son of Eddie, great lead swinger. And he was saying in there, you know, it's not so long since Archie was playing in Eddie's garden, you know, and actually about a week or so ago, his two younger brothers had to be pulled apart after a kind of mistime tackle in said garden. And you know, in that short space of time you've gone from that to potentially playing in a Europa League final in Bilbao. And this might be your one and only shot at it. And I think for postecoglou, as Danny said, the philosophical side of it, that would be the way to go.
- [48:42]
Phil Hay
Right gents, let's end it there. Danny, Phil, thank you so much for your time and also thank you guys for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.
- [48:51]
IO Akimolere
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
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Danny Kelly
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IO Akimolere
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