← The Athletic FC Podcast
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- [00:01]
Anthony Mackie
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- [00:31]
Chef
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- [01:02]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network.
- [01:10]
IO Akimwaleere
Welcome to the Athletic FC Podcast with me, IO Akimwaleere. Napoli boss Antonio Conte has confirmed superstar winger Cavica Cavaratskhelia wants to leave Naples. So why does he want to depart and where is his most likely destination? With us today we have the athletics Italian football writer James Horncastle, and we've also got Phil Hay with us as well. Right, James, Take us back to Kovara's first season at Napoli, a player that was named Serie A's Most Valuable Player in 2023 after lifting the Scudetto. You've described this as the best debut season of any footballer in Italy since Kaka at Milan in 2003. High praise, man. Talk us through it.
- [02:05]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, to be honest, I think there are only a couple of comparisons you can make. One is with Kaka and the other one is with Mo Salah when he joined from Chelsea on loan to Fiorentina. But Napoli had not won the league since 1990. So 33 years ago, this guy comes out of nowhere. And in his first season with the club, in his first season with Italy, he wins the league. And as you just mentioned, he is the MVP in terms of goals, assists. Just an outstanding dribbler, outstanding in his ability to get into the box, even head the ball, and just great to watch. I always remember there was a kind of great Argentine writer, Georges Luis Borges, who said that if you give a kid a football, the kind of history of the game starts all over again. And if you give a kid a football, they tend to just want to dribble with it. That's the natural instinct that we all have. And he's never lost that and just scintillating to watch. You know, even last year when Napoli were defending their title. And it ends up being the worst title defense since the Grani Torino side were wiped out in a. In a plane crash and kind of Torino had to, yeah, sort of still muster a title defense. You know, he still, I think, gets 16 goals and assists in a year in which they have three different coaches. He's been this bolt from the blue because, you know, they signed him from Dinamo. Batumi, everyone's favorite Georgian club. Yeah, I think, Phil, I mean, you know, when you think of Georgian clubs, you're thinking like Dinamo Tbilisi or something.
- [03:36]
Phil Hay
Oh, this is it.
- [03:37]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, but, yeah, you know, not. Not Batumi, you know, the Black Sea Casino capital, the Vegas of Georgia. And so there's very little fanfare when he joins. And it's really hard these days for us to know little or nothing about footballers because, you know, we all have, you know, Mark Carey's, Tom Harris's writing, you know, profiles about, you know, this player in obscurity. And we all know about him. No one knew much about Kvratskhelia. And so for him to have the impact he did and to show himself to be the talent that he is, quite remarkable.
- [04:10]
IO Akimwaleere
Yeah. And we've already reported, I think you did, that.
- [04:13]
James Horncastle
He.
- [04:13]
IO Akimwaleere
He wants to leave Napoli. And you know what's really interesting? When. When I read that piece, I was. I almost spat my cornflakes out. I looked at how much money is actually on for a player of his stature. Yeah, it's so bizarre. I mean, look, I think it's like 1.5 million pounds, $1.9 million a year for a player they bought for about 13 million euros. Violetskellia has just won the Scudetto named MVP in Italy. And he's on that kind of money.
- [04:40]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, yeah. And he had a great Euros as well. You know, I think everyone's second team during the Euros was Georgia because they. Yeah, I mean, they have this tradition of producing these kind of almost Brazilian, like, dribblers, but Cavada, I suppose. How do you explain the salary that he's on? Well, it also reflects the kind of obscurity he was coming from, you know, and that Napoli were taking a chance on this guy. You know, it's not often that you sign a player, you know, straight out of Georgia. Now, the kind of curious thing with Cavallo is that he had been playing in Russia with Rubin Kazan. Then Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine, and then FIFA passed this legislation which allows anyone in conflict zones Ukraine to be able to unilaterally break their contracts. And so, you know, he goes from Rubin to Dinamo for free and has like four or five months there and then Napoli sign him for 11, 12 million. I've always been curious about, you know, we had Adam Crafton who followed Shakhtar, particularly at the beginning of that conflict. Shakhtar had legal action, they brought legal action about this FIFA legislation which meant that they lost players who were worth tens of millions to them. And yet Rubin, you know, when I contacted them around the time of Napoli Scudetto, I was like, are you not seeking sort of recompense for more money for this incredible player who it looks like PSG are going to spend 70, 75 million on? And I didn't get a response. So I do won. Napoli took a risk, I think, in signing Kvara. And yeah, I mean, the thing is his salary has remained the kind of rate that you'd expect from a kind of peripheral player in a squad. And yeah, Napoli have tried to increase it. They've been respectful of the fact that.
- [06:30]
IO Akimwaleere
This guy's really good, so they've offered him another contract.
- [06:33]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, they've been in contract negotiations really from, yeah, the period where it first emerged like, this guy is incredible. But, you know, when it's come to actually agreeing something with his entourage, you know, that has been, you know, very difficult. And as Conte said in his pre match press conference at the weekend, yeah, it feels like we're still at the very beginning of those contract negotiations because they've got nowhere. And I think they've got nowhere because, you know, ultimately the players entourage and the player himself believes it's time for them to, to move on.
- [07:09]
Phil Hay
It's funny with Faric Kilia because he is the hipster's choice, isn't he? And, and he does, he does definitely have this retro style about him, which kind of harks back a little bit to the era where your best footballers did what they did, played off the cuff. People accepted that. People loved that. And the game has changed and it's moved on. But I always think it's, it's unfair and a mistake to cast him as, as a wild card or something of that ilk. As James was laying out there, he was a title winner at Napoli and has been part of a Napoli squad who are, you know, high performing again this season. He's played a fair amount to this point, Player of the year in that season when they won the Scudetto as well. So he clearly is capable of fitting into a system and he's he's quite simply just a cracking, incredibly engaging footballer. He still has to fit. And I think whereas, you know, psg over the years and less so now, things have changed at psg. They're not recruiting and spending in the same way that they used to that period where money was no object. And they seem to almost want to say to clubs like Barcelona, look, if you put a big buyout clause in for Neymar, we can actually pay it, you know, and we will and we'll take him. And that's, that's how it is. It's not quite like that anymore, but Liverpool in particular tend to be very particular about who they, they sign. They don't often, even even though this is a sort of market opportunity, they, they don't often get sucked into spending big money on a whim or spending on players that they haven't thought much about or, or players that they don't necessarily want to take. I think the thing about Farich Khelia is that once he's on the open market and, and if he's available to buy, he's got to be tempting because the fact that he is different and the fact that he has the, the flair and, and that bit of uniqueness about him is the sort of marginal gain that can, you know, can do it for a really elite team. And yes, you know, within a system, whether it's Arnold slots or any, anybody else, it has to work. But bear in mind that he is only 23, so it's not as if he would be teaching, you know, new tricks to, to an old dog. Quite the opposite. I think there's still an awful lot of development potential there. But it's fascinating listening to James talking about the finances because Serie A, despite the fact it's a great title race this season, it's a little bit off the, the map in the sense of being, you know, the prime European league. It just isn't that anymore. And I remember when I was covering Leeds in the Premier League, hearing about the frustration in Italy that, you know, lower to middle end, middle or, sorry, middle to lower end Premier League clubs could spend more on players or could certainly rival your biggest clubs in Italy. That's the way the finances are. And whatever Napoli are offering, it'll be quite obvious to Farich Kelly and the people around him that there's much bigger money to be had elsewhere and that if he comes to the Premier League, his wage will soar. But like you, I was absolutely staggered when I read how much he's, he's earning There because he's, he's properly, properly elite and he is the sort of player that you would, you would tie down at the first point of asking. But clearly it's not that easy in Italy.
- [10:10]
IO Akimwaleere
What I'm interested is from your perspective is what kind of person is he? You know, is he that loyal player or you mentioned his entourage earlier or is it more of an entourage? Kind of like we need to do something for business senses to get you out of Napoli.
- [10:24]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I mean Kvar is completely different to let's say Victor Osimhen. You know, Osimhen was very vocal about it being, you know, his last year at Napoli, even though he signed a contract, you know, three weeks before he made those comments. And you know, you see Osyman occasionally go on Instagram Live sort of call out his national team coach, you know, call out owners and that sort of thing. Kavara, you don't really hear a peep from, you know, he's, he's very shy and retiring. Complete opposite to how his he is on the pitch in terms of him always taking people on. He's quite timid, you know. Yeah, his, his Italian for example was, was never the best. He has only been there sort of two and a half years and even his English was kind of quite stop start and that sort of thing. So you know, he is, he's someone without, I would say ego, someone without this kind of. There's nothing at all flashy about him apart from his football. But clearly the people around him see an incredible talent in him. And you know, Phil mentioned his age to be, to be 23 and that decisive in a league which, you know, isn't, as Phil was saying, prime. It's not the number one in, in Europe. It's not like it was in the 90s, but it's still competitive where you've had four different title winners in five years, where there are five Champions League teams from Italy this time around because of their performances in the coefficients. And he's. Yeah, he's been a major difference maker in that league. It's very interesting. I think Napoli could pay him, let's say sort of top end of what the best players get paid in City A which is between kind of 7 million and 9 million add ons might take it to 11 or 12, but that's what you're getting to. It really wouldn't matter. Napoli could cut the best check they could cut and it still wouldn't be enough to compete with what PSG could offer, what Liverpool could offer or what a top, top Premier League club can offer. And so, yeah, there is always this feeling that Seria is, you know, a stepping stone league, a transient league in which the best players sooner or later move on. And I think that's. That's. Yeah, particularly you look at Napoli. That has been the case with Ezekiel Lavezzi, Edinson Cavani, Khalidu Koulibaly. You know, more recently, you think of Kim going to Bayern Higuain. A lot of the time that's been because they've had buyout clauses and people have just paid the buyout clauses. But, you know, there is this frustration, I think, among some Napoli fans, like, why can't we keep our best players and have them see out their entire careers here? But look, you know, that's. That's never really been the case at Napoli, beyond local lads, you know, even Maradona, for different reasons, you know, didn't stay and see out all of his career in Napoli.
- [13:24]
Phil Hay
I think it's quite evident as well that the players who are moving from England to Italy are almost going there because doors have closed for them in England. It's a long, long time and I'm almost struggling to see the next point at which you'll see a top player, really top player from the Premier League moving to cdr. Just to go back quickly to his Karius character, I mean, I know very little about him beyond his footballing career. And there was an interview done with him by Rory Smith in, in the New York Times a little while back. Rory's just come to the Athletic recently and it was. It was a really good read, but it was incredibly guarded. You know, he did not give an awful lot away. And it just. I sort of got the sense from reading it that he's his. His own man and he knows what he thinks. Or at least he and the people around him are their own men and they kind of know where they want this to go and they know what they're going to do and it'll be their decision when. When the time comes. I. That surprises me about it slightly is that this is all blown up mid season, really with Napoli in such a good position in. In Serie A, I can't imagine it will be pleasing people there at all. But I wonder whether with his contract as it is and, you know, the fact that he's had a couple of seasons there now, whether he feels at his age that it is just time for a change.
- [14:41]
James Horncastle
You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akumalere.
- [14:46]
Phil Hay
I use the New York Times Games.
- [14:48]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
App Every single day. I love playing connections with connections. I need to twist my brain to.
- [14:53]
James Horncastle
See the different categories.
- [14:55]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
I think I know this connection. Look.
- [14:56]
IO Akimwaleere
Bath is a city in England.
- [14:58]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Sandwich is a city in England. Reading is a city in England. And I'm gonna guess Derby is a city in England.
- [15:04]
Chef
I started Wordle 194 days ago and I haven't missed a day.
- [15:07]
David Ornstein
The New York Times games app has all the games right there.
- [15:10]
IO Akimwaleere
I absolutely love spelling bee.
- [15:13]
James Horncastle
I always have to get genius. I've seen you yell at it and.
- [15:17]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Say, that should be a word.
- [15:19]
James Horncastle
Totally should be a word.
- [15:20]
IO Akimwaleere
Sudogu is kind of my version of lifting heavy weights at the gym.
- [15:23]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
At this point, I'm probably more consistent with doing the crossword than brushing my teeth.
- [15:27]
Phil Hay
When I can finish a hard puzzle.
- [15:28]
IO Akimwaleere
Without pins, I feel like the smartest.
- [15:31]
James Horncastle
Person in the world.
- [15:32]
Phil Hay
When I have to look up a clue to help me, I'm learning something new.
- [15:35]
Chef
It gives me joy every single day.
- [15:37]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Start playing in the New York Times games app.
- [15:40]
David Ornstein
You can Download it@nytimes.com GamesApp Foreign.
- [15:50]
IO Akimwaleere
We've mentioned Liverpool. We've mentioned PSG, which looks like the most likely destination for Kvaratskhelia.
- [15:58]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Well, I mean, Phil mentioned that this isn't ordinarily how Liverpool operate, you know, paying the sort of fee that's been talked about for, for Kovara. But, you know, I think it's, it's interesting because, yeah, you still have, you know, this contract situation with Mo Salah going on in, in the background. Is he going to sign? He's kind of hinted that. It doesn't look like he. He is. This is his last season at Liverpool pending any, Any other developments. Yeah, I thought Liverpool were quite smart in the summer basically to go out and get Federico Chiesa for 15 million euros.
- [16:30]
IO Akimwaleere
We thought that was a sniff.
- [16:31]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
We did a podcast tonight that looked like a bargain. Even though, you know, I was saying that, yeah, Chiesa's last 18 months had been really difficult. He had a bad injury and it was saying something that Juventus didn't think he was worth the contract that his agent and entourage were basically suggesting that he, he should get and that they didn't want to build the future around. Around him. A Chiesa as we've seen Liverpool beyond, you know, the game against Aquinson Stanley where I think he came on and scored, he's made next to no impact.
- [17:05]
IO Akimwaleere
He's not played really, has he?
- [17:06]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
And so this idea that he could be this kind of almost insurance policy for losing Salah at the moment, unless they can really recover the player that looks, that looks like a slimmer and slimmer possibility. Cavara, as you know, his former coach Luciano Spoletti has said, you know, reminds him in some aspects of Mo Salah and Spalletti had Salah at Roma, you know, where Liverpool bought him from, and he had Kavara at Napoli, you know, and I, I think regardless of how Liverpool are run, you're not paying 120 million for this player, you're not paying 220 million for this player. Yet 70 million for a Premier League club is not all that expensive when your Declan Rice is a going for 100 million, when your Jack Grealishes are going for 100 million and that sort of thing.
- [17:51]
Phil Hay
And also he's at the right end in terms of age, isn't he? I think the thing with kza, and it's quite unusual for Liverpool, is that he's almost burned brightly already and gone out to a certain degree, but has got that chance at Anfield anyway. Whereas with Karach Khalil, he's still. You're absolutely approaching his prime at the moment.
- [18:08]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, the wage upgrade, it doesn't make, you know, I think Liverpool can obviously offer more than champions, Italian, top Italian teams, but they don't have to go sort of PSG money, you know, in terms of making Kalia think that the salary offer that they might prospectively offer him is a really good salary offer. But at the moment, you know, I mean, psg, yeah, they've had historic interests, you know, going back to the summer where there was this, this bid to sign both him and Osimhen in a combined package for 200 million, which Napoli turned down. You know, I think Kvara actually, in many respects, even though they've got a lot of wingers and players in his position, Kvara makes sense. With PSG's project at the moment where there aren't any superstars, it's low ego, you know, as good as he's been at Napoli, you know, he hasn't really transcended and got these big commercial deals. He's not on billboards outside of Georgia, you know. You know, and that sort of thing. Yeah, if he was. Yeah, this is classic cliche. If he was Brazilian, people would be like, wow, this guy's amazing. Cavaradinho. He'd be already like sort of fetching 220 million. And yeah, that sort of thing was. He's understated, timid, as we mentioned. And you know, in a post Neymar Mbappe Messi era psg, he still fits that. He still fits that age profile that.
- [19:28]
Phil Hay
They would go for on the timid front. One really quick question, James. How is Antonio Conte going to handle this? Because Conte is not the flower children. And at that press conference last weekend, I mean, he just laid it all out, didn't he? It was a case, always a case of if he thinks I'm going to, you know, water down or brush over what's gone on, he can go and play in the road. I mean, he just spelled it out in full. How will he manage this?
- [19:52]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
To be honest, I mean, this season has been a reminder of what a good coach Antonio Conte is because, you know, he's changed his system for Kvara. You know, he said, okay, I came in thinking we can play 434-421- could maybe use Kawevara a little bit like I used Son at Spurs. But he's like, no, actually, you know what, we're going to play 4231 or 43 3. So he changed for Kvara. And I actually really liked Conte's comments at the weekend because he said, you know, the beginning of the season, I said, give me six months and I can persuade you that this is still the club for you, that this project is worth you sticking around for. And, you know, Kovara, obviously last week goes to Napoli and says, yeah, I still want out. And the club says, go and tell Antonio that. Never an easy conversation. And so. And so Conte basically said, I'm not disappointed with Guevara, I'm not disappointed with the club, I'm disappointed with myself because I couldn't persuade him at the end. And maybe I was arrogant in thinking that I could persuade him. But Conte's spent the last few weeks basically trying other players in Kvara's positions and they've kept winning.
- [21:02]
IO Akimwaleere
Neres, the Brazilian, David Neres.
- [21:05]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
And I think that has. That's maybe emboldened him and given the club confidence that they can sell now, even though it's never easy to buy players from Napoli, but I think Conte is the way he's approached this, I've actually come away from it with more respect for it from him because he hasn't thrown all of his toys out, out the pram. He's just laid it all out. I'm not going to lie to you, this is how it is. Having said that, if a deal gets done for Kvara, be it with psg, be it with Liverpool, you can bet your bottom dollar that in the next fortnight there'll be a fire underneath the backside of Napoli's sporting director to go and find another winger or you know, go and add to the squad with the money that comes from a deal.
- [21:54]
IO Akimwaleere
Well, joining us now, the man who needs no introduction, David Ornstein is with us. David, we've just been talking about Kvaratskhelia and where he potentially could end up, whether it be psg, Liverpool. But it also got us really excited about this process in, in the transfer market. It's that sort of domino effect effect. Right. So potentially if he does end up going to psg, you've got a player like Bradley Buckler who has been making waves this season, who then looks like a player that could be, you know, bought by another club or taken out on loan. Another club. Isn't this just the beauty of it? A player goes one way and then actually there might be players looking at this other player going, oh, actually now we can get our hands on a decent player.
- [22:33]
James Horncastle
Yeah, I think this is why the transfer market, or Calcio Marcato as James might like to refer to it, has become a sport within a sport and there is that knock on effect and we're seeing it across the board and the more we get invested in, in transfers and recruitment, the more we kind of piece those bits of the jigsaw and the puzzle together. But doesn't mean it's quite that simple. So you know, psg, who definitely working to try and get this deal done, they'll be looking that at that in terms of a really good addition of a young player, one of the top attackers in European football and what they're trying to build at the club post this sort of Galactico era of, of Messi Neymar and Mbappe as just being right for them. And, and that doesn't necessarily guarantee that a Barclay moves on, on loan or permanently. And I know that's got a lot of supporters excited, especially at Premier League clubs and, and sort of like, oh, we'll take him out and you, you know, just guarantee that he'll want to come to your team or he'll be leaving. That's not the case. And, and when I've said in the past that it's not like football manager, I don't mean it in a, in a derogatory way towards ourselves fans, media. It's just like it's not quite as straightforward as that and so we'll have to wait and see how it shakes up afterwards. And yeah, you mentioned, you know, Liverpool there. Our report recently was that, you know, if he was definitely going to be moving Then Liverpool would consider sort of getting involved in the tussle. And as it's materialized, you know, PSG have gone to what they will feel is a, is a good financial figure for somebody that was being talked about over 100 million euros euros previously. But, but I think we would all look at it and say that's still an extreme amount of money and ultimately if they get this over the line and we don't know the exact payment terms then you know, it's not something that Liverpool or anybody else you know because Chelsea had a strong interest in him too have decided to go go forward with and those who were looking at him as a potential option, you have to scratch him off your recruitment list and look to other potential options. And there's all sorts of ramifications there as well. So yeah, no doubt a knock on effect but it's hard to say anything definitive because you know, you might turn around and have a conversation with PSG and they say no, no, Barclay is at the forefront of our mind. You know, we want to get the most out of him but somebody else may be more available. So definitely is intriguing and that's why in these deals there's a lot of sort of moving parts and conversations and spinning plates as the industry likes to refer to them because yeah, you can't just sort of stockpile these players and there'd be no repercussions, percussion and, and that's part of the intrigue.
- [25:13]
IO Akimwaleere
Okay, well let's move on because another player who has asked to leave their club, therefore opening the door to a January move. James is Kyle Walker. Milan are the team most strong and linked with him at this moment in time. What do you understand about the situation? Because also Milan have been linked to another player in Manchester, Marcus Rashford as well.
- [25:32]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Yeah, look, I mean with Milan they don't need a player in Carl Walker's position. Yeah, they signed Emerson Royale in the summer for quite a lot of money. You know, Emerson took over the starting job from, from Davide Calabria. Davide Calabria is the captain of Milan. He's still there. So on the one hand you've got someone who spent a lot of money on relatively speaking and on the other you've got a captain there now. Yeah, from what, from what I'm told. I mean Karl Walker has been offered to Milan and you know, I think in terms of the prospect of playing for, for Milan, as Zlatan Ibrahimovic said about Marcus Rash Rashford at the weekend, it's one of the biggest clubs in the world, you know, I shouldn't, I shouldn't need to convince anyone to come to this club. But it depends really on what Milan's priorities are going into this window. And, you know, I think they, they're looking at Marcus Rashford. We reported last week that, you know, Rashford's representative, his brother was in Milan, told explority talks with the club. It did look like Noah Okafor, Milan's left winger, left attacker, was going to go to RB Leipzig. But that, from what I've been told this morning, has kind of fallen through, which again, would make it more complicated for them to sign Rashford. So, yeah, both of those propositions seem very up in the air at the moment. And as we detailed in the deal sheet today, the other wrinkle in all of this is regulatory within Italy because Milan can only sign one British player according to the kind of non EU slots and amnesty post Brexit UK slots and that sort of thing. So if they wanted to sign Rashford or Walker, they could only sign one of them. Can't sign both of them and at the moment, their possibilities of signing even one of them have sort of been compromised by this failure to move on Okafor.
- [27:28]
IO Akimwaleere
Okay. David Olike wrote a piece on Kyle Walker and how both his personal life and obviously life on the pitch have been quite turbulent, some might say, in the last couple of years. What do you make of this Karl Walker situation and him asking Guardiola that, you know what, maybe it's time I seek out a new challenge abroad.
- [27:46]
James Horncastle
Yeah, it's not the first time that his future has been in sharp focus. I think there was a situation with Bayern Munich previously and look, he's been amazing in terms of what he's done at Manchester City. And I'm not sure there are many, if any better right backs in, in the more recent Premier League era than Carl Walker. His consistency, the, the success he's had international level two for England. And even when people have written him off, because I remember there was a bad performance where he made a mistake or two away from home against England, came out after the match and sort of it sounded like he accepted his international career was coming towards an end and before you knew it, he was back in the squad and he was a regular again and he's gone to, I think it's at least one major tournament since. So, you know, fair play for, for the career he's had and, and got great admiration for, for his achievements. But it has been a rocky period on and off the pitch and, you know, Pep Guardiola clearly worked hard to, to make him stay. Remember the pictures of them outside a restaurant, which was sort of said to be a sort of seminal meeting where Guardiola sort of said, I'm counting on you. And Karl Walker pledged his future. But now, for whatever reason, he clearly feels it's time for a fresh challenge and to move on. And, you know, James outlines the AC Milan interest, but we don't know this is going to happen. There have been links to Saudi Arabia. It doesn't appear that that's going to happen. And I think it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he stays. And clearly, you know, Pep Guardiola has come out slightly unusually and said it publicly, which may sort of make clear to the, the people if he does stay, that it wasn't Manchester City forcing him, it was that, you know, he wanted to go and explore a new challenge and kind of, I don't know, maybe brings this towards a bit of a sad end for him at Man City, whatever happens. Because, you know, it's been a really tough season now, this speculation, and maybe with hindsight, all parties will look at it, that they should have moved on previously and it hasn't worked out how they would like. And, and we've got to respect the difficulties, you know, a lot of people reporting and, and having their say on his, his personal life, which is just none of our business. And, and whatever happens, you know, you, you hope that it works itself out. Well, I think Manchester City are obviously coming to the point of, of moving on from Carl Walker, regardless of. Of who wants what, because, you know, they've got new sporting director coming in, they're looking, they're going to be recruiting, no doubt in the summer as well. Karl Walker's age profile, along with the likes of Ilkay Gundogan and Kevin De Bruyne and others within the team suggest that, you know, this sort of cycle is coming towards an end. And Kyle Walker very much, you know, part of that. But not all good things last forever.
- [30:32]
IO Akimwaleere
Phil. I'm not going to ask you about Kyle Walker's private life.
- [30:34]
Phil Hay
What thank you.
- [30:35]
IO Akimwaleere
Is, you know, you got escape that one. But, like, you know, what I will ask you is you've got a player that's 34 years old, a player that's won pretty much everything with Manchester City. Yeah. Countless times. A player that's had a great international career can't begrudge a guy for wanting an extra challenge elsewhere, somewhere in Europe. Swear, maybe a bit sunnier than Manchester.
- [30:55]
Phil Hay
Yeah. I mean, I Think as much as. As much as we don't want to talk about his private life, it, It. It will be a factor in this. And I think certainly over the past four or five months, it's felt as if it's intensified drastically to the point where he, he is kind of front and center in the tabloid agenda at the moment. And it's almost like a bit of a perfect storm where I wonder if a little bit like Marcus Rashford at Manchester United is feeling like, you know, he's, he's. He's done with the kind of Old Trafford bubble and needs a fresh start, needs a change, needs to go somewhere else. I wonder if Kyle Walker, equally between all of that and is, you know, undeniably diminished in form, which has led to things like, you know, the sort of fairly distasteful stuff that you get on. On social media, which is a. A pretty persistent trend of modern football, unfortunately. I wonder if it all has just brought him to the point of thinking, I need to get out of here. You know, I do need a break. I need to get out of the bubble that I'm in the goldfish bowl of City and I need a different club. I need a different. Different setting to move on a little bit. The timing would be right and, you know, David got into this. I am more and more surprised at the way City seem to have been slightly blindsided by the extent to which some of the players were going over the hill or, you know, moving so far beyond the peak that they were going to have to. To be replaced. I think the only surprise about this, a little bit like Farach Khalil, is that given the season City are having and given the kind of trouble they've been in and what they need to do in the second half of the season, the Walker hasn't bitten his tongue and kind of made it through to. To the summer and reassessed then. But given the way things have been over the past five to six months, and given the attention that is on him, not just in a footballing sense, but in a personal sense too, I can totally see why he thinks that fresh pastures might be a good idea.
- [32:41]
IO Akimwaleere
Okay, well, James, Phil, thank you so much for your time.
- [32:44]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
Pleasure.
- [32:54]
James Horncastle
This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Acamolera.
- [33:01]
IO Akimwaleere
Yeah, David, you are the last man standing and I want to really quiz you about this one, because breaking news today, Arsenal are working on a deal to sign Martin Zuse Mendy from Real Sociedad. Is this a January transfer or is it something we're looking at A bit further on down the line, David, first.
- [33:16]
James Horncastle
Thing is to credit Sami Mokbel who wrote this story and then we've also run it and others too. Martin Zubimendi is a long term target for Arsenal for Mikel Arteta in particular, who's been driving it for a long time. I remember reporting, speaking about this more than a year ago, but it was all about the decision of Zubimendi. Did he want to leave Real Sociedad and ultimately it proved no because there were clubs like Arsenal ready to pay his release clause. He came back into the conversation at many clubs in the summer when I think Arsenal considered it. He had a good Euros of course with Spain and Liverpool tried to sign him. It got far but ultimately he decided to stay at rail Saucy dad again. And there's my information and understanding that, that Arsenal were working on it for you know, quite some time. They sort of reinvigorated their pursuit when they were in the process of signing Mikel Marino, of course from Real Sociedad and that would have been Edu Gaspar as Sporting director at the time, leading the charge and, and trying to deliver a player for Mikel Arteta next summer. So the summer of 2025. In the meantime, Mikel Arteta signed his new contract. He would have wanted to know that these sort of things were in, in process at least and in a good place. And it now emerges that, you know, progress has been made and, and it's not done by all accounts, but it would be a deal for, for next summer at the end of this season that Arsenal bring in Martin Zubimendi subject to, you know, finalizing everything really it's mainly personal terms, right. Because if there's a release clause, Arsenal are going to have to pay it unless they can negotiate with Real Sociedad. Outside of that, the relations between the club are good. But as we saw when they signed Thomas Partey from Atletico Madrid, you don't actually need to notify the, the, the club. You, you just sort of do your deal with the player and then he has to go and pay La Ligo and, and you know the club that's buying him will compensate on, on his behalf. So you know, this is a major development and, and let's see how it goes forward because I'm sure they're not the only club that would like him. You know, not only Liverpool were linked with him last summer, Real Madrid I think Barcelona, but Arsenal, there's, there's been confidence for quite some time internally that they could land him in the, in the summer of 2025. And people will say, oh, why didn't you report it it then? And, and you're now coming out with it now. And that's because you, you got to be sure on these things. And, and that's why I credit Sammy at the start because he got into a position to be able to, to get that over the line and, and now others have followed and, and that's because these situations are fluid. It's not, you know, guaranteed that it's done and, and, and it's ongoing and, and it still may be ongoing, but now it's out in the open, that, that's the one Arsenal are trying to, trying to do and it will be a big moment if they pull it off because they've wanted him for so long. But it also raises many questions about who plays where because he's a number six. Many feel Declan Rice is best at number six, that Mikel Marino is best in, in that sort of holding department. And what does that mean for the number 8 role? Does Declan Rice play there, which he's been playing a lot recently, but people think he's better at 6. Does Mikhail Marino play there, but he's not been so effective in the eight role, you know, all these things to Arsenal, bring in the number eight on top of that. It's a really fascinating situation. Like Mikel Arteta will have things very well defined in his head. No doubt it goes to underline his influence and power in the club and over recruitment because these are the players he wanted. You know, you hear many clubs talking about how it's a recruitment department decision and the head coach just trains them. Well, that's not the case at Arsenal and they'll present it as a collaborative approach. But Arteta is at the heart of that and I mean, it's almost like Real Sociedad reunited with those two if it comes to fruition. Martin Odegaard has been there previously. The Minecast back to Santi Catholic and Nacho Monreal. There's only one piece missing in the jigsaw, Arsenal fans will point out, and that's Alexander Isaac.
- [37:14]
IO Akimwaleere
Yeah, I mean, look, that brings me nicely to my final question. I know, whilst I've got you, is that that is a position that Arsenal, I mean, some might say glaringly, obviously are lacking in after the defeat to Manchester United and also Newcastle in the domestic cups. Any news for Arsenal fans in terms of what might happen? Because as we've seen, there are reports of Gabriel Jesus looking like he's going to be spending a bit more time on the sidelines.
- [37:40]
James Horncastle
The injury that he suffered against Manchester United is a suspected anterior cruciate ligament ACL rupture and that would be devastating news if and when confirmed the time of recording it with describing it as suspected. But even Michael Arteta said in his news conference today that it looks really bad and he said that straight after the match too. I guess the only silver lining if it is that, is that it's the other knee to which Jesus had surgery in December 2022 during the World cup in Qatar. But we wish him nothing but the best and, and a smooth recovery. Of course he's been so influential for Arsenal recently, returning to goal scoring form. And that's the key part of your question. Well, Arsenal are active in the market. Arteta has said that himself. I am aware of them exploring situations. They can't sign any players on loan from the Premier League because they already have their allocated two slots filled by Raheem Sterling and Neto unless they were to turn one of them permanent. But I don't know of plans for that. So you would look to the loans market outside of England and to the other big leagues around the continent and that's why there have been links to like a Dusan Vlavic, Benjamin Sesko and so on. Sesko is a long term target that Arsenal have looked at for, for a number of windows and we've reported that in depth. I think it would be very difficult to do it at this time of the year. More a summer one. He, he didn't sign a new contract too long ago and I'm not saying that Arsenal would rule out bringing forward a permanent signing that was meant for next summer to January if the circumstances align. They do have some financial maneuverability from what we hear within the PSR restrictions. So there is some money there on a Vlavic. Quite complicated in one sense because Arsenal have been there before also we reported that too and, and it wasn't an easy deal to do financially from Fiorentina, the agents commissions and things like that. There was a lot said within the industry about, you know, his representatives and it's not a straightforward scenario. I do understand that Juventus are willing to part with him, but at this point in time I don't know of, of, of Arsenal going for it and we'll make checks on that and, and, and they'll be exploring all manner of other scenarios too. Are there any sort of lower cost permanent transfers that they could do now and that that would allow them to do within or outside The Premier League. But post Jesus's injury, post soccer injury with all the, you know, difficult results recently, three games without a win out of the FA cup, slipping back in the Premier League and on the back foot in the League cup semi finals. Although they're still doing well, well positioned in the Champions League, they are having these conversations and looking at what can be done but clearly, you know, it was meant to be a reactive window with the summer being the priority. So now that reactivity may need to come into the fore and they might need to do something and it wouldn't surprise me now if they did. But exactly what, we're not quite sure just yet. And just one more caveat, you know, Gabriel Jesus has not been Arsenal's first choice striker despite the fact that he's, he's hit a rich vein of form that is Kai Havertz. And okay, people have, you know, noticed obviously that, that Havertz had a difficult match against Man United, missing the penalty in the shootout and the clear cut chance during normal time and, and a chance against Newcastle. But if you look over the calendar year of 2024, really impressive numbers and, and that paints a pretty impressive picture overall since he signed from Chelsea the previous year and he is Arsenal's first choice in that position and he is still fit and available. And so Arsenal will take Solas from that. It's essentially his backup who, who they've lost and, and then they've got strength from the likes of Martinelli and, and Trossard and, and Odegaard is there and they all need to weigh in more heavily. You'll have Namweri coming back from injury in the not too distant future. Yes, Saka is out and yes, they will try to act but it's not like they haven't got anything in that department. And they will feel that, you know, they can extract more from their existing resources and those resources have shown what they're capable of and that there have been, you know, many an occasion where it's looked like Arsenal are well blessed in the attacking department. So it's largely about recapturing their form and goodness me, let's not get away from it. Finishing some of these chances, 40 odd chances against Manchester United and Newcastle combined, that suggests that they're making them and applying the finishing touch will solve a lot of the problems that they're encountering. Easier said than done. But it's not maybe as bleak as some have been making out.
- [42:15]
IO Akimwaleere
Yeah. Interesting times ahead for Arsenal. David, thanks for your time also Phil. And also James Horncastle as well, who joined us earlier? We'll have more on this story and all the other transfer news. Head over to the Athletics transfer deal sheet. The latest one is available to read right now and we'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.
- [42:36]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
The Athletic FC Podcast Network hello, I'm.
- [42:44]
David Ornstein
Ian McIntosh and I'm the host of the Daily Football Briefing. What is the Daily Football Briefing? It's a special 10 minute daily show designed to bring you up to speed with the most important stories from across the football world. Except on Monday mornings when it's 15 minutes and we try to cram in the results. Standing endings and stories from the top 10 leagues on the planet. Or at least the top 10 leagues that I run on a football manager save. Follow this show today and you'll never miss another big story again. Whether it's news that the Athletic has just broken. David Ornstein what happened? News from outside the Premier League that other podcasts might ignore.
- [43:17]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
That is a difficult one to explain.
- [43:19]
IO Akimwaleere
So let's go bit by bit.
- [43:20]
David Ornstein
Or it's Champions League week and you just need someone to put it all into context.
- [43:23]
The Athletic FC Podcast Network
It's made for a very useful away.
- [43:26]
IO Akimwaleere
Point in a difficult game in a difficult week.
- [43:29]
David Ornstein
Listen to the Daily football briefing in 2025. It's out every weekday wherever you get your podcasts.